Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister, Deputy Lawless, and his officials for attending and assisting with our consideration of the Supplementary Estimate. I thank them for providing the related information. I call on the Minister to make his opening statement, after which we will proceed to questions and answers.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I am thankful for the opportunity to present the 2025 Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. My officials have provided a briefing to the secretariat of the committee that I hope will be of assistance to members in analysing it.

This Supplementary Estimate provides a gross increase of €96 million to bring the overall allocation for my Department to €4.693 billion in 2025. This represents an increase of 2% on our Revised Estimate allocation for 2025. Furthermore, as part of this process, my Department has agreed some technical adjustments to manage our 2025 allocation effectively, including additional expenditure costs that were offset by savings.

Through the additional funding provided, careful resource management and the use of technical adjustments, this Supplementary Estimate targets almost €180 million towards the following priorities. A sum of €30 million is provided to meet funding pressures relating to the increased number of apprentices due to be trained in 2025. In line with programme for Government commitments, I have prioritised the resolution of this funding pressure, through ongoing engagement with key stakeholders and the Department of public expenditure. This additional funding enables education and training boards, ETBs, to proceed with the scheduling and delivery of apprenticeship courses without delay. I issued a directive in the summer, when the funding pressure came to light, that no apprenticeship course should be affected, because it was imperative that apprenticeship delivery occur without delay.

A sum of €25 million is provided for in-year Government decisions. This includes €22 million to support beneficiaries of temporary protection, BOTPs, to access further and higher education under a more sustainable model, aligned more closely with the supports available to Irish students. This measure provides assurance and clarity to current and prospective BOTPs regarding the supports available to those wishing to pursue tertiary education. It is actually a fairer system all round and brings the system into line with the Irish student experience, in comparison with which it was out of kilter.

Also included are sums of €2.8 million to fund over 300 additional student places across nine priority health and social care disciplines, which places were introduced in September of this year, and €750,000 towards additional social welfare commitments in December. A sum of €13.6 million has been allocated to support increased demands on the student support scheme and the student assistance fund in 2025. The student assistance fund is a very important element of the supports and interventions available to students. It provides financial assistance at the institutional level to those facing difficulties in meeting everyday costs of participating in higher education. For many, this assistance can be the deciding factor in whether they remain in college or are forced to leave.

This Supplementary Estimate also provides €111 million for public sector pay and pension costs. This includes the funding of Building Momentum pay costs, public-only consultancy contracts and pension obligations in the higher education sector.

I trust that this overview is of assistance to the committee and hope the briefing documents provided have been of some assistance. I am happy to take questions. I commend the Supplementary Estimate to the committee.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister. We have an agreed speaking rota for the joint committee but we do not have one for the select committee. On that basis, I propose that members indicate whether they want to contribute. I will call them in turn. Furthermore, if members would refer to the relevant subhead in the briefing provided by the Department when asking questions, that would be appreciated.

I remind Members that in accordance with Standing Orders, the discussion should be confined to the items constituting the Supplementary Estimate. Deputy Ó Súilleabháin has the first lámh suas.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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On the allocation of €22 million to support BOTPs relating to Ukraine, the amount seems particularly large. Is that aligned with supports for Irish students? In light of what the original thinking was, namely that the beneficiaries would be returning home in the event of the war ending, the amount seems quite substantial. There would have been a question raised previously on the amounts spent on the BOTP system. Even the Government acknowledged that they were very high. The accommodation recognition payment, ARP, was creating many problems and the Government had to reduce it in respect of accommodation because the system was not very fair. We raised this issue previously. What is the logic behind the figure of €22 million?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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That is to see us through the remainder of 2025.

I agree with the Deputy that the system was very generous at the outset, when the first wave of people began to arrive from the war. As that situation has continued it was important to move to a more sustainable model, one that is fairer to everybody and which introduced things like a means test, which was not there previously. That allows for a fairer, more sustainable, better value for money system for the Irish State, as well as continuing to provide a level of support to people, many of whom have now been here for some time and have become part of the fabric of our communities.

In regard to the ARP, I am afraid that is outside of my remit so I cannot comment on that.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister give a bit more detail on what he said about aligning with the supports available to Irish students? What would that entail?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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It is now means-tested.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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The payment is now means-tested. It was not before.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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The €22 million, that would be-----

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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The €22 million is to see this out. It is to fund a number of students, many of whom would have been at leaving certificate level this year taking examinations and who had an understanding they would be sponsored through their education and eligible for various support. A decision was taken that those people had a legitimate expectation and that should be honoured and it would be seen through. The system has moved to a more sustainable model where applicants for future grants and awards would be subject to means tests and the usual rules that would apply to Irish or EU students who would be applying.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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That would be important because we would not want to repeat the mistakes of the ARP. That created terrible division in the country and a lot of resentment because it was not seen as an equal playing field for everybody in terms of who landlords would rent homes to. As for this measure, hopefully nothing about it will cause any sort of division because there is enough of that already.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I think we are in violent agreement. I am saying the same thing as the Deputy is. We should have a fairer scheme that applies the same rules whether one is Irish, Ukrainian or from somewhere else. The previous scheme did not do that. I think things like the means test are fair and reasonable to apply to any situation or student, whether they are Ukrainian, Irish or from anywhere else. I am now doing that. That is a move I have made to change and strengthen the rules and tighten them up a bit, if I can put it that way. However, there are a number of people in the system already who are coming through it, some of whom would have been sitting their leaving certificates earlier this year, so it is important we see that through. We should not be in a situation where we are coming back to address this every year. It should be something that is built into the system and that is costed, sustainable, fair and dealt with on a means-tested basis. That is what we are doing now and it is a fair and more sustainable system in the long term.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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As a last question on that issue, does the Minister have an idea of what number of students we are talking about? I do not need exact numbers, just a rough estimate.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have them at the moment but I am sure we can provide them to the Deputy afterwards.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Is it in the thousands?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I think it would have to be in the thousands, yes, but I do not have a figure at the moment. We could probably debate the ARP on another day but it is not under my Department so I will not get into that scheme.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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On the allocation of €30 million for funding pressures, does that mean other learners from ETBs will be further down the food chain when it comes to quality of learning? At what cost will this now be for other courses at ETB level? We had that issue in Cashel where there were lay-offs and 14 young students lost out on courses. The Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, stated it was fully funded but it obviously was not, if that was the case. What will happen? Will that €30 million allocation directly affect other funding?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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That is a very specific situation that happened in Cashel and a few other areas and comes under the remit of the parent ETB. Each ETB has its own autonomy in how it manages its budget and allocations. The sums of money that are being supplied to the ETBs has never been greater. The amount of money being supplied to SOLAS has never been greater. As for how they allocate that within their own education provision, different ETBs have different educational provisions with some having multiple courses and some having different types of courses. I know a couple the Deputy has mentioned and she has raised this in the Dáil Chamber as well. It is up to each local ETB how it manages its budget within that. It is important ETBs prioritise their provision of apprenticeship training and that is why I have allocated an additional €30 million in this revision. I gave some other support mid-year to get ETBs through that as well and this situation is now addressed for next year with the new budget allocation. How each ETB handles its provision within that, however, is ultimately a matter for individual ETBs.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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Will the €30 million allocation affect any other services in our-----

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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It is up to the ETBs. The apprenticeship provision is fully funded. If the ETBs want to make their own decisions, whether they want to increase or cut courses or keep them static-----

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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The €30 million will not affect their funding.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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ETBs are getting more money than they have ever got before and the funding gap that was identified has been plugged and filled in full by this and other measures. There is no shortfall in the funding given to them. In actual fact they have had more money given to them this year than ever before. It is actually at an historic high. How the ETBs manage that and what decisions they make at local level in terms of what courses to advance, what courses to increase and what courses to cut back on is entirely up to the ETB boards.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of the €0.75 million towards additional social welfare commitments in December, what are those commitments? Will the Minister give some detail on that?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Some students in further education courses would have been in receipt of social welfare payments and there is a tradition they get a Christmas bonus and have their money doubled coming into Christmas week. It is very fair and charitable to do that. My Department takes that on in terms of the students who are welfare recipients within the course provisions. In effect, we pay the Christmas bonus to those students.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, so that does not come out of the social welfare budget.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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For the students in further education, it comes out of the-----

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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It comes out of the further and higher education budget.

Does the €111 million for public sector pay and pension costs come out of the NTF funding or where does it come from?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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No, the NTF funding is capital funding while this is current funding. Also, this is honouring pay deals that were entered into mid-year. The Building Momentum pay deal is one where industrial relations mechanisms were invoked and an agreement was reached with unions and employers. That has been given effect in this Estimate to ensure we can honour that and pay the additional pensions commitments that were entered into.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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The way that works, is that not given retrospectively? Do institutions not have to budget for that without realising they are going to get it? Is that how that works, namely that this funding is not automatically recurring funding?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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It is a lot larger than €111 million. The sum of €111 million is a supplementary for this year to a large degree. When we look at the Estimates for next year, there is a huge number for pay and pensions across the sector, as would be normal in every Government Department, and this is incremental additional moneys to honour the likes of those pay deals during the course of the year.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, that is it.

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I thank the Chair. In relation to the €2.8 million for the 300 additional student places for the health and social care disciplines, does the Department have a breakdown of those 300 places and which courses they will be in?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I will just get that information for the Deputy now.

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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That is fine.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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We have a largely high level breakdown. Part of this has the objective of meeting our disability challenge to assist in providing a higher number of therapists and professionals that can assist with healthcare and disability needs. Across that we have 463 additional places in health and social care disciplines such as therapies, including occupational therapy, physical therapy, speech and language therapy, dietetics, radiography and radiation therapy. All of those would be of great assistance there.

We also will have 20 additional places in Irish medical schools in 2026, which will bring us up to 200 new places created during the past three years. There are also new programmes coming on stream in pharmacy. I know Deputy Connolly's home university in Galway is taking on board the pharmacy course.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The graduate medicine course as well.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Graduate medicine absolutely but the focus is on rural medicine which is really innovative. I have seen the challenge in meeting the provision of rural GPs myself. The two courses in Galway, namely, pharmacy and graduate medicine with a focus on rural medicine, are very welcome. Also there will be 35 places in dentistry. I visited the RCSI recently and saw first-hand the new equipment and facilities that are being provided. Those are being entered into the system as soon as possible and will also provide public as well as private services. That is badly needed.

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Are all of those places for CAO applicants or are they for-----

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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It depends what they are. The graduate places are somewhat different but the rest of them would be assessed through the CAO. There are also additional veterinary places as well - 80 of them - in both Atlantic Technological University, ATU, and South East Technological University, SETU. I mentioned the 151 new pharmacy places and the new medical programme. There are a number of places.

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I think that is actually important to mention as well the significant number of places opening in what we would normally have considered rural colleges, now rural universities. That is extremely welcome. Even if I was an outsider, that would be extremely welcome. Number one, it is beneficial to the colleges but, number two, it is also very beneficial to the communities or cities the colleges or universities are located so that is positive.

Is it possible for the Department to specifically outline in tabular form - perhaps this is for the colleges - the number of different places? The Minister mentioned the 20 places in the Irish medical schools and a significant number relating to different therapies. Is it possible to get a breakdown of the number of occupational therapy and speech and language therapy placements? That is probably a ream of work for the Minister’s Department.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure it can do that. I am taking parliamentary questions on 2 and 3 December if the Deputy wishes to submit a parliamentary question on the issue. I will get that information to the Deputy either way. I will make sure the Deputy gets it. Parliamentary questions might be an efficient way to organise it. We can certainly do that.

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Are those new places for the 2026-27 academic year?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Some of them have already started. Nursing in Maynooth started in September. I launched the programme and it is already up and running. Those places were not through the CAO because they came on stream in mid-summer and the CAO process had already started. We launched the new course ahead of time. There are a couple like that but the majority will be up and running for 20 September 2026.

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Is the €13.6 million allocation to SUSI and the student support scheme for the 2026-27 academic year, or has it been allocated in this academic year?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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It is for the 2025-26 academic year.

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The increase in the threshold, for example, was available for students who entered college in September 2025.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Is this in regard to the increase in grant thresholds?

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Yes.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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The grant thresholds increased to €115,000 this year and they will increase to €120,000 next year. The student contribution fee discount is effective immediately and that is applied through a Supplementary Estimate here. That comes into effect. For students paying in instalments, they get the benefit of it in the second instalment, that is, the January instalment, probably. If they paid the full amount at the start, they can get a rebate. Most of the measures kick in for the current year but some of the thresholds, etc., are part of budget 2026 and they will come into effect next September.

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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That is very good. In respect of the €111 million for public sector pay and pensions costs, do we have a breakdown of what pay deals they relate to?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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The €111 million is arrived at across two heads, one consisting of €66.1 million and the other a further €39.7 million. The €66.1 million concerns public sector pay costs from the Building Momentum pay deal as well as the public-only consultant contracts in the higher education sector because we have a number of medics, etc., involved in the universities. Some of them fall to us, in terms of some of the medical schools and so forth. That €66.1 million relates to the Building Momentum pay deal and then a further €39.7 million has been allocated for in-year pension obligations.

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The Department really had no choice other than to allocate that money.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Pacta sunt servanda. You pay your debts.

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Go raibh maith agat. It is a pity.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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It was a pay deal that was entered into, so it is critical that we see it-----

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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No, it is so that the Government can say that we caused it.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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That is true. Deputy Kenny is a union man. He should speak to the unions.

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I definitely did not cause it.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I know. I am only joking.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the provision of the additional Estimate and resources for the Minister’s Department. I had to take a call and I missed some of the discussion with regard to the SUSI grant or grant supports for beneficiaries of temporary protection, particularly for the Ukrainian people who are here. I dealt with some cases where they applied through the normal SUSI grant application. I dealt with some families earlier in the summer and they went through the normal process. Fortunately, the ones with whom I had contact were all approved. They had to provide proper evidence, supporting documentation and all of that. SUSI was helpful to them. It has been aligned, and that is the way it should be. That is the message that needs to go out. It is great to see some of those students and young people who came here in the most awful of circumstances doing exceptionally well in their leaving certificate and going on to very demanding courses at third level. I wish them well.

Earlier, we spoke about the need for additional people across all the different disciplines in the provision of healthcare. One issue I have been highlighting with the Minster for Health, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, and previously with the former Minister, Stephen Donnelly, is the whole area of therapy assistants. All of us in this room who are public representatives are utterly frustrated with the delays children and young people face accessing the therapies they need. One idea that was put forward a few years ago by different advocacy groups that I and other public representatives worked alongside, an idea that came from England, was to have therapy assistants. Those therapy assistants could do some of the work that the occupational therapist, speech therapist or whatever other kind of therapist does. They would do some of that particular work. We are not trying to lessen the quality of the service or therapy the child needs, however. I know that some of that work is happening. It is an area to which momentum should be given because we are not going to have enough therapists for quite a number of years. A greater intake is needed into our colleges and there will be a deficit for some time, apparently. I ask the Minister to put a particular emphasis on this in the further education level.

The Minister knows my association with Cavan Institute. A few years ago, between the HSE and some private nursing home providers, home support workers and healthcare assistant courses were provided to ensure we have enough skilled people to do that work in our particular area. Some other assistant therapy courses are under way as well. It is an area that may need further attention and greater investment. Those people can be upskilled and given the necessary skills to take on the role of therapy assistant in a shorter period than it would take people to qualify as therapists. It is not in any way to suggest that we lower the quality of service that people need. It is an area in which some work is being done, but if extra attention could be given to it, it would bring great benefits in the whole area of training more people and ensuring we have more resources available to deal with healthcare. Again, I welcome the Supplementary Estimate.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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A lot of the questions I intended to ask have already been asked by other members. Similar to other members, I welcome the Supplementary Estimates and the additional funding for the provision of courses for those health and social care disciplines in particular. Their importance has been stressed by other members. The Minister mentioned the additional nursing course in Maynooth. Nursing remains one of the areas for which we provide a significant number of work permits to people coming to this country. There is a huge demand for nurses. Community nursing facilities around the country are struggling to maintain their units at full capacity due to the shortage of nurses. For this reason, I welcome that new course and I hope we can do more in that area in the coming years.

I have one quick question regarding the additional €13.6 million for the student support scheme. What proportion of that funding is fully paying for students’ fees? I understand the change to the grant criteria now allows for an additional proportion of students not to pay any fees. It is somewhere in the region of 30% of students. Maybe the Minister has better data. I note the Minister is thinking about something. I am just wondering about the number of students who now do not have to pay any fees as a result of the changes to the SUSI grant.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I understand.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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How much of the Estimate is covering that?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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The threshold for full fee support is a household income of approximately €65,000. Under budget 2026, a household income of up to €120,000 is eligible for fee support. For example, that includes a household with an annual income of €119,000. If there are two people in a family, with one earning €60,000 and the other €59,000, or alternatively a solo earner on €119,000, which are good salaries by most accounts, they will now get fee supports, including a €500 cut and a €500 fee grant, which effectively means they are paying €2,000 this year. That is progress.

In terms of the income tree, if we look at the ESRI statistics and so forth, we will see that up to 80% of households are covered by fee supports. Only 20% of households actually fall outside of that.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Some 20% of households are paying full fees.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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A total of 80% of households have some fee support.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Certainly, if we look at the income distribution of the ESRI charts, it is hard to quantify it exactly. If we take the income distribution curve from the ESRI and we look at where fee supports fall and thresholds continue to increase, including this year in the new budget, 20% are falling outside of that.

This means that 80% of people receive either full or some form of fee support, which is significant. We can get Deputy Connolly more figures on this, because the point he made is valid. It is one that sometimes gets lost in the debate. In addition, I have attempted to target grant and other supports towards those who are in greatest need. All four SUSI bands for non-adjacent grants have increased this year. The maintenance grant levels have increased as have the thresholds. I have also put money into the fund for students with disabilities and allocated funding to support mental health.

We have already spoken about the student assistant fund measures. The key is to pursue a dual-track approach. We have continued to reduce fees and provide further fee supports, and we are also targeting moneys at people with disabilities and people on lower income levels and at the non-adjacent grants. Non-adjacent grants are for people who live further away and who also need assistance.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to the reciprocal figure, we do not know the proportion who pay no fees. Do we have any figure for that?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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We do not, unfortunately. It is something I would like to get. We are working on it.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister may not know, but how much of the €13.6 million in additional moneys is being used to pay student fees directly?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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None of it, actually, because this money is only for SUSI. In the context of the wider budget, a significant proportion is being used to pay fees. However, this Supplementary Estimate is all geared towards SUSI.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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And student support.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Exactly. I have commissioned a piece of work on the impact of various interventions. There are many different things we can do. For example, we can increase grants, including the non-adjacent and adjacent grants, and the thresholds, and we can reduce fees. Before we set about doing them collectively as an Oireachtas, it is important to understand what the policy outcome of various measures will be. I have asked for research on this, which I will publish when it becomes available. I expect that will be in the new year, and it will inform the debate on budget 2027.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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It has come to my attention that TU postgraduate students get €10,000 less than other postgraduate students. Is there a reason for that? Is there any funding coming for them?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Forgive me Deputy, which graduates?

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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TU postgraduate students get €10,000 less. They brought the matter up at a meeting with the Minister.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Is this PhD stipends?

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. They get €10,000 less.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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This is not unique to TUs. It depends on who the funder is. PhD students can apply to Research Ireland or other funding agencies. The Research Ireland stipends are €25,000, and that includes a significant rise of 31%. These are the ones I control directly. There are other funding agencies that may not have made this move. Ultimately, it depends on what course a student is on and by means of what funding they are pursuing their PhD. If it is a Research Ireland-funded course, which is under my direct control, they will receive €25,000.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister not find €10,000 to be a significant amount?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I do, but what does Deputy suggest I do about it?

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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The postgraduate students involved met with the Minister and he indicated that there is funding out there.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Any student pursuing PhD funded by Research Ireland, which is the State funding agency for research, will receive a stipend of €25,000. There are other funding groups and funding vehicles that do not fall under the direct control of the Department. I suppose they have their own rules and schemes. There are many different schemes out there. The Research Ireland scheme is the one for which I and my predecessors have increased the funding to €25,000.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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Would that funding not all fall under the same umbrella?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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There are many other agencies, such as the Environmental Protection Agency and the Health Research Board, which may commission PhDs and have PhD students coming under them. They do not come under the remit of my Department, so I afraid they are outside my control.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing me in. I am not a member of the committee but I was watching proceedings. I knew the Minister was going to be here this evening and I wanted to ask a few questions. There are a number of issues I want to raise. Last week. I visited a number of the further and education training sites-----

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Is this on the Supplementary Estimates?

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I want people to keep to the Supplementary Estimates.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I visited the sites in question. What the ETBs have taken on is very impressive. It is significant because several of us who previously served as local authority members also served on ETBs. The footprint of the ETBs now is colossal. I was chair of Limerick and Clare ETB in 2019, which it has more than doubled in size in the interim. QQI has stakeholder engagement going on at present. It proposes that QQI level 5 healthcare nursing courses will have to double the on-site practical hours from 120 to 240 per annum. This is proving unworkable because most hospital environments cannot take on students in this fashion. They are pulled and dragged in 100 different directions. Doubling up the placement hours just is not an option. We want people in healthcare but we cannot make it such that it becomes impossible or inaccessible. Does the Minister have a view on this?

It is almost a year since the general election took place. There is a commitment in the programme for Government for the mid-west to become a test bed for new forms of aviation technology and that this would be reflected in the third level institutions. In the context of Supplementary Estimate or his plans for 2026, how does the Minister hope to roll this out? Aviation is a very fast-moving sector. The Minister has identified the mid-west, and specifically Shannon, to be a test bed for trialling new technology and upskilling people, but we have not yet heard the detail.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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The first point the Deputy raised relates to the number of nursing hours required at one of the centres he visited being doubled by QQI. Which centre is that?

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It is all centres. I just happened to be in one where it has been identified as a particular constraint, but it is happening in all centres.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I invite Deputy Crowe to send me a note on this and I will pick it up with him offline. I am not familiar with what is involved. It is not part of the Supplementary Estimate, but I am quite happy to engage with him on it. It is a new one on me and my officials. We will have to find out more about it and drill into it a little bit to see what the situation is there. QQI has a degree of autonomy and it can regulate its own courses. Perhaps it has discovered an issue. I do not know why it might be doing this. There may be a good reason for it. I will have a look at the matter and come back to Deputy Crowe on it. He might send me a note containing the details of what is involved.

In terms of the mid-west and aviation provision, Deputy Crowe is probably aware that I was pleased to be able to double the number of apprenticeships in aviation mechanics shortly after starting in this role. There was an issue, because we were not, perhaps, as competitive as we should have been in terms of supporting the aviation industry and having fleets maintained in Ireland. In response to this, I doubled the number of apprenticeships available in Dublin and Shannon. Block 2 of this will either be starting in Shannon very soon or is ready to commence. This is a significant investment in aviation in the mid-west region. I will send Deputy Crowe the details of what is involved if he does not have them already. I can send him a note on the matter. It is a significant investment in the region.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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That concludes the business of the select committee. I thank the Minister, his officials and the members for participating in today's meeting.