Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Brendan Smith.

Everyone is very welcome to today's meeting. I ask those attending remotely to mute themselves when not contributing so we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are in silent mode or switched off.

Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that, in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. As the witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at this meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official of the Houses either by name or in such a way to make him or her identifiable.

I congratulate our colleague Deputy Frank Feighan, who was a member of this committee and is now a Minister of State at the Department of public expenditure. I am sure we all wish him the very best. He can do some of our bidding in his important Department. I am sure he will have a favourable eye when it comes to budgets for further and higher education.

On the agenda for today's committee meeting is a discussion on apprenticeships. We are joined by Ms Fiona O'Byrne, assistant secretary; Ms Sally Cao, principal officer; and Ms Siobhán Sleeman, principal officer, Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science; Dr. Vivienne Patterson, head of skills, engagement and statistics, and Ms Louise Sherry, senior manager for apprenticeships, Higher Education Authority, HEA; and Ms Nessa White, interim CEO, and Mr. Con Ferry, director of apprenticeship integration and capacity, SOLAS. They are all very welcome to today’s committee meeting.

I invite Ms Sally Cao to make the first opening statement. She has five minutes.

Ms Sally Cao:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to discuss apprenticeships today. I am the principal officer for apprenticeships policy and I am joined today by my colleagues Ms Siobhán Sleeman, principal officer for higher education governance and quality, and Ms Fiona O’Byrne, assistant secretary for further education, apprenticeship and skills.

The Department sees apprenticeships as a vital part of Ireland’s economic and social infrastructure. Apprenticeships bridge education and employment and they supply skilled talent to critical sectors while offering inclusive pathways for learners of all ages and backgrounds. The European Commission’s 2024 Draghi report stresses the importance of vocational training and work-integrated learning in driving competitiveness and economic growth.

The Government’s Action Plan for Apprenticeship 2021–2025 sets out a vision for a system that is flexible, responsive and of high quality, delivering sought-after qualifications and positioning apprenticeship as a preferred route to skills development. In implementing the action plan, the Government has taken a series of steps to ensure both a sufficient supply of training places and strong demand from learners and employers.

Actions to boost training supply were in the context of the challenges of Covid-19. The current action plan was launched in April 2021, and by 2023 Covid-19 workshop closures had contributed to a significant backlog in craft apprenticeship training. In response, the Government prioritised a rapid expansion of craft apprenticeship places, backed by significant investment – €67 million in budget 2024, €77 million in budget 2025 and €79 million in budget 2026 – together more than doubling the investment in apprenticeships, which rose from €184 million in 2020 to €410 million in 2026. This directly enabled a 39% increase in phase 2 training places, from 5,600 in 2023 to 7,800 in 2024.

This expansion supports the delivery of the national development plan and responds to the growing demand for skilled trades.

The Government has progressed targeted actions to drive demand and make apprenticeships more attractive and inclusive, including a new gender-based bursary from 2022 to encourage female participation in previously male-dominated trades, bursaries from 2023 for the Traveller community and socioeconomically disadvantaged groups, and a €2,000 annual employer grant for consortia-led apprenticeships, CLAs, from 2022. The Government has also promoted apprenticeships through initiatives like the careers in construction action plan and its sponsorship of WorldSkills, which showcases skills-based careers to school leavers. Furthermore, the Government launched the public service apprenticeship plan in 2023. This aims to grow annual public service apprentice registrations from 67 in 2022 to 750 by 2025. These actions have delivered strong growth. Annual apprentice registrations have risen from 5,326 in 2020 to 9,352 in 2024, on track to meet the Government target of 10,000 annual registrations by the end of 2025. A 41% increase in construction-related registrations is helping to meet critical infrastructure workforce needs.

Robust quality assurance in education and training programmes is required to ensure training remains relevant and meets industry standards, promotes continuous improvement and delivers value for both learners and employers. In 2025, a review of SOLAS's quality assurance for electrical craft assessments, led by Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, has identified areas for improvement, including assessment predictability, security and governance. SOLAS is implementing a quality improvement plan which has been agreed with QQI to address the identified areas.

The Minister has made strengthening quality assurance a priority. Following meetings with QQI and SOLAS, the Minister has directed the reassignment of craft curriculum, assessment and awards from SOLAS and QQI to education providers to be progressed. This reform will embed quality assurance within the tertiary education framework, strengthen academic standards and ensure programmes remain current, aligning with OECD recommendations to prepare Ireland's workforce for global challenges such as demographic change, climate transition and digitalisation.

These interventions highlight the importance of the apprenticeship system for the Government. In that context, the Department's role is threefold. The first element is working with our agencies, namely SOLAS, the HEA and QQI, to ensure appropriate oversight and governance of the apprenticeship system. The second is to lead a co-ordinated approach across government to invest in apprenticeship supply and support critical skills for infrastructure delivery. Continued growth is needed to reach the programme for Government target of 12,500 annual registrations by 2030. The third element is to develop the next action plan for apprenticeship for the period 2026 to 2030, informed by the perspectives of learners, employers, education providers and trade unions. The goal is to position apprenticeship as a first choice for learners and employers, underpinned by a system that is inclusive, innovative and quality driven.

I look forward to our discussion on how we can build on the progress under the current action plan and deliver an apprenticeship system that meets Ireland's future skills needs.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Cao. I invite Dr. Patterson to make her opening statement.

Dr. Vivienne Patterson:

I am the head of skills, engagement and statistics in the Higher Education Authority, HEA. On behalf of the HEA, I thank the committee for the opportunity to discuss apprenticeship with it. I am joined today by Ms Louise Sherry, senior manager with responsibility for apprenticeships.

The HEA is the statutory body with responsibility for governance, funding and oversight of the higher education, HE, system in Ireland and, as such, I would like to provide a brief overview of the HEA's role in apprenticeship provision in the system. Its role includes the allocation of recurrent budgets on an annual basis, the allocation and monitoring of staffing levels, the development of capital submissions required for expansion of apprenticeship provision, the scheduling of phases 4 and 6 craft apprenticeship blocks across technological universities and institutes of technology, the roll-out and support of the Access to Apprenticeship, ATA, initiative, and the review and approval of new apprenticeship proposals.

With regard to the scale of apprenticeship provision existing in the HE system currently, the sector provides two thirds of the off-the-job training in craft apprenticeship, amounting to approximately 12,150 training places per annum at phases 4 and 6. This represents a fourfold expansion of craft apprenticeship provision in the HE system since 2015–16, when the capacity was approximately 3,280 training places. Furthermore, since 2016 the HE system has commenced the delivery of consortia-led apprenticeships, CLAs, with 35 HE CLA programmes currently being delivered across the system and over 2,000 registrations across eight broad sectors, including business, engineering, ICT, health, services, agriculture, hospitality and science. It should be noted apprenticeships are being provided by all types of HE providers, including all university types, institutes of technology and private HE providers.

On the overall recurrent funding for apprenticeship, which is provided from the National Training Fund, NTF, the HEA received €89.6 million in 2025, representing an increase of almost €70 million over the 2016 investment level, which demonstrates the significant level of expansion experienced in apprenticeship provision over the past ten years across the HE system. Capital investment from 2017 to 2024 was in the region of €57 million, supporting the increase in apprenticeship provision, and shows the clear level of commitment by the Government to expanding apprenticeship provision within the HE system. With regard to the HEA's role in the expansion of apprenticeship provision, the HEA works in partnership with SOLAS and the National Apprenticeship Office, NAO, on the approval of CLAs. The HEA, in partnership with SOLAS–NAO, reviews all new proposals to develop CLA programmes in the sector. There are currently 30 new CLAs at development stage, with 17 of those planned for commencement in the HE system in 2026 and 2027.

It should be noted that CLA provision in HE spans levels 6 to 10 on the national framework of qualifications. The vast majority of programmes provide progression routes for apprentices to continue their educational development. A current activity we would like to highlight is the ATA initiative. The ATA programme is a 12-week, full-time programme whose central mission is to provide pathways to full-time apprenticeships and careers from a foundational apprenticeship to a cohort of young people who are vulnerable to long-term unemployment or progression to low-skilled, poorly paid work. The cohort includes those from the Traveller community, young people affected by homelessness, those who have been in the care of the State and those who experience socioeconomic disadvantage. Another aim of the programme is to address the under-representation of women in craft apprenticeship. In 2024, a total of 67 learners participated in the ATA programme in the Technological University of the Shannon, at both the Limerick and Athlone campuses, with 70% of graduates progressing to a full apprenticeship programme.

On the future of apprenticeship, the current action plan, Action Plan for Apprenticeship 2021–2025, sets out the targets and objectives to deliver a structure that recognises the unique role of apprenticeship provision within the Irish education and training system. The plan sets out a structure for an apprenticeship system that is flexible and responsive, provides a strong value proposition for employers and potential apprentices, is attractive and easy to engage with, and delivers high standards and sought-after qualifications. With regard to a future action plan for apprenticeship, the Department has engaged the OECD to conduct a review of the current national apprenticeship plan and provide recommendations for the future. It has established a working group to liaise with the OECD, and the HEA is represented on this group. In the context of the development of a new action plan, the HEA suggests that the plan set out high-level objectives for a ten- to 20-year timeframe, with specific actions over a shorter period, namely five years, that could be reviewed on an ongoing basis. The short-term actions we recommend include the implementation of annual or biannual calls for the development of new apprenticeships, which would prioritise the creation of new apprenticeships to meet critical skills needs shortages; a review of funding models deployed in both the further education, FE, and HE systems to ensure a unified funding model is available across all apprenticeship types; a review of the current ten-step process for developing new apprenticeships with a view to enhancing its responsiveness; progressing the apprenticeship integration plan; and in advance of the integration plan, transfer of the designated awarding body role from QQI to providers of craft apprenticeship and specifically existing designated awarding bodies such as technological universities.

On the progression of the apprenticeship integration plan, we believe a national quality assurance framework needs to be put in place and agreed by providers through the establishment of provider alliances for individual or discipline-specific families of craft apprenticeships. I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak today.

I am happy to take any questions.

Ms Nessa White:

In order to keep time, I will move through some of the points already made, but members have them in the written submission. I thank the committee for the opportunity to engage with it on apprenticeship. We welcome the recent debates the committee has had and look forward to the committee’s report. Since our last engagement with the committee, our CEO has moved on to a new role. I was therefore appointed as interim CEO in August. I am joined today by my colleague Mr. Con Ferry.

By way of background, the national apprenticeship office, NAO, was set up by our parent Department in 2022 to take responsibility for the management, oversight and development of the apprenticeship system and to drive the delivery of the Action Plan for Apprenticeship 2021-2025. The Higher Education Authority, HEA, and SOLAS jointly manage the NAO to reflect the fact that apprenticeship is delivered over the further and higher education sectors.

Let us look at the transformation and growth of the system. The apprenticeship system has undergone significant development and expansion throughout the lifetime of the action plan. New craft apprenticeship registrations have risen by 63% and we have, as mentioned, 78 individual programmes available, ranging from level 5 to level 10 in a range of industries including ICT, financial services, retail, hospitality, engineering and construction. Alongside this growth, the Government has clearly demonstrated a strong and sustained commitment to apprenticeships with the aforementioned investment in training increasing by 139% in the past five years.

The transformation journey included the development of consortia-led apprenticeships, of which we have a total of 78. The impact of Covid-19 has been mentioned. Apprenticeship facilities were closed for nine months of the 15-month pandemic, there were restrictions on capacity and the challenging backlog was created as a result of the impact of Covid-19. The journey also included the reassignment of quality assurance roles. A policy commitment was set out in the action plan to move responsibility for the curriculum and assessment aspects of craft apprenticeships so we are working closely with the Department, the HEA, Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, and training providers and SOLAS is finalising a plan for the transition that will be submitted to the Minister this month.

While we talk about recognising successes in the apprenticeship system, there have also been challenges in what is a complex delivery system and this has impacted the delivery of apprenticeship provision. Since 2023, the priority has been to address the waiting lists, with significant resources redirected, new delivery models adopted, capital investment in additional workshops and the appointment of additional instructors resulting in the elimination of backlogs. However, the focus of resources and attention on that area resulted in some deprioritisation of the broader curriculum and quality assurance reforms. In early 2025, concerns were raised by QQI about the quality assurance for apprenticeship assessment of the electrical craft. SOLAS has taken these matters very seriously and implemented all necessary actions to urgently address them. We have actively engaged with QQI and continue to do so. We accept the full recommendations set out in the focused review. We are addressing areas for improvement as a matter of priority, through a quality improvement plan, QIP.

Key actions are highlighted in the submission addressing enhanced governance with the reconstitution of the programme board and broader stakeholder representation; oversight of a multi-agency group; assessment integrity and enhanced security protocols for assessments; collaboration, with formal provider forums to be established and improved feedback mechanisms; and joint work with higher education institutions, HEIs, and external experts to strengthen independent quality assurance methods. Continuous improvement with regular review cycles for quality assurance, QA, documentation and assessment is another fundamental part of our improvement plan. It is, however, also important to note that while the QQI review highlighted concerning failings in the assessment of the electrical apprenticeship in relation to phases 4 and 6, electrical apprentices undergo 49 individual assessment points across the four-year duration of their apprenticeship. An independent review on safety was conducted by the City of Glasgow College, which confirmed that there are no health and safety concerns arising from this matter and all qualifying electricians are capable of performing their tasks competently and safely.

The review of assessments and the quality improvement plan have been referenced. Funding pressures in 2025 were highlighted. Despite the increasing investment in apprenticeship outlined, funding pressure was identified. This was primarily linked to the cost of State allowances paid to apprentices during their off-the-job training phases. This has since been resolved following the prioritisation of resources and did not affect any other areas of further education and training.

In conclusion, I will highlight some areas of progress in the employer grant scheme, including incentivising employers to recruit across all types of apprenticeships. Our national surveys show positive feedback on the benefit of apprenticeship options and widening access has been referenced by colleagues as contributing to the growth in participation by under-represented groups.

I hope this provides the committee with a brief overview of the apprenticeships, outlining the complexities of the system, key developments, current challenges and opportunities for improvement. SOLAS remains fully committed to working with all stakeholders to continue to ensure the integrity of the apprenticeship system. I thank the committee for its time and welcome further engagement.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome everyone. I acknowledge and congratulate all the witnesses on the huge work that has been done by each of the organisations to increase the level of apprenticeship uptake we have seen. Undoubtedly, significant funding has been provided by the Government, but it is the witnesses' work on the ground in implementing and executing the policy direction that has resulted in what we are seeing. Well done. They have our continued support for the further work they need to do. We are on track to achieve 12,000 apprenticeships by 2030, but we look forward to the development of the next iteration of the action plan, taking lessons from the experience we are going through now with many more people at work in apprenticeships and the much greater experience we have of how it is working.

The witnesses will excuse me for going to an item that concerned me when I heard about it earlier this week. I was delighted I would have an opportunity to meet them to ask for their thoughts on it. They might be aware that the apprenticeship scheme for training chefs came under fire on Monday on national radio and I think there was an article in The Irish Times. Essentially, feedback from employers was articulated that despite there being a huge need for chefs in the sector, employers cite difficulty in funding it. I understand that one of the differences between the consortia-led approach and the craft or traditional approach is that in the craft approach the off-the-job section of training is funded by the Department, while the approach we take in the consortium-led apprenticeships is that we ask employers to fund the apprentices year-round and we provide them with a €2,000 grant to subsidise that cost.

The point made by the gentleman I listened to on Radio One, whose name escapes me, was that the sector is so competitive for staff that very few people employed in the kitchens are on minimum wage. They have to pay above minimum wage. They employ apprentices at minimum wage, but the cost of doing so and only having them in the kitchen three or four days a week - I think it averages at three days per week when holidays and so forth are taken into consideration - was prohibitive. He made the point that as a consequence, very few employers have signed up. I had a look at the apprenticeship website before we came in this afternoon. Only five employers are registered for commis chef level 6, which is concerning when we know that we issued 2,000 work permits for overseas workers to come here to fill those roles last year. We have been doing so at that level for a number of years. I was glad to hear Dr. Patterson reference the list for critical skills visas. It is important we align the skills gaps with that section in the Department of enterprise because we need to reduce our reliance on overseas workers and meet that skills need internally where possible.

Can I throw that open? I appreciate it is not a positive issue to highlight. However, it is an issue we need to consider. I would like to get the thoughts of the witnesses on that difference in funding.

Dr. Vivienne Patterson:

I thank the Senator for the question. It is a challenging sector. We have three active apprenticeships in that area at the minute. One is commis chef, which is run through the education and training providers. That is a successful course. Hundreds of people have come through that apprenticeship. Numerous employers have signed up for commis chef. Our difficulty is the movement between commis chef to chef de partie and sous chef. We have been working with the Restaurants Association of Ireland, RAI, which is the lead in the consortia for the chef de partie and sous chef. We have provided funding for it to have a project manager and a communications person to work with it to try to promote it and get employers. However, we are not seeing a huge take up. We are not getting that movement between commis chef and chef de partie.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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My apologies for cutting across Dr. Patterson. Is the feedback she is getting that it is too expensive? Is that what she is hearing from the employers?

Dr. Vivienne Patterson:

Yes, we are hearing that from the employers. However, it is demand driven. Apprenticeships are demand driven. We see that right across the higher education system. We also have a number of culinary apprenticeships that we run through the springboard programme. We are finding it challenging to fill any of those places. It may be that the employers are suggesting that it is a funding issue for an apprenticeship. However, as I said, it is a real challenge right across all of the provision that we have.

Ms Sally Cao:

The commis chef apprenticeships are consortia-led apprenticeships. One of the benefits we notice from employers with those apprenticeships is the structure of training being a bit more flexible. There are options to do day release and that kind of thing, as opposed to more block relief as seen on the craft programmes. We hear that works really well for employers. Employers are involved in the consortia-led groups that manage the programmes and the delivery of the programmes so they are all chaired by an industry representative. The same is true for the chef apprenticeships. In general, if improvements can be made in terms of the structure of a programme, for example in the case of chefs I understand the structure of the programme was also raised, they can do that through the regular meetings of that group to look at programme delivery and contents and go through the usual revalidation process to make that a reality.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their work. One general theme across all the witnesses' evidence was the standardisation of the curriculum, or in fact, the opposite. They were moving from a position where QQI and SOLAS might define the curriculum and assessment to the institutions defining the curriculum and assessment. What is the advantage of that? Given the challenge we encountered and that has been noted, I would have thought the standardisation of curriculum and assessment would have been a positive and would have been better were it coming directly from the national body, rather than each institution defining it.

Mr. Con Ferry:

The Deputy is quite correct. At the moment, we have responsibility for the curriculum as co-ordinating provider. The plan that is under way at the moment for relocating the curriculum and assessment development will have that incorporated. It is not that we are trying to fragment the system. There is very much a focus on a national qualification and a national standard across the board. Whether in Kerry or Donegal, the programme and the assessments being undertaken will be uniform. It is not that there is an intention to move it to a fragmented system. That is a thread that is running through what we are trying to do within the planning that we have undertaken at the moment, the discussions with colleagues, the Higher Education Authority, HEA, and with QQI. It is an overarching theme of the plan.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am advised here that the Minister has directed the reassignment of craft curriculum assessment and awards from SOLAS and QQI to the education providers to be progressed. That infers the opposite of what Mr. Ferry told me.

Mr. Con Ferry:

It could be interpreted like that. However, we are developing a national quality assurance framework that the awarding bodies will lead into and from which the delivery providers will then take their lead. It is a national focus.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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My second question relates to the willingness among all bodies to see an increase in supply of apprenticeships. One of the bodies, it might have been the HEA, said it wants apprenticeships to be the first choice. The Department said the goal is to position apprenticeships as first choice for learners. I have no concern with that. However, why do we have this system where we are putting the options for students in an order of first choice and second choice? In the feedback we have received from apprenticeships who have come before us, one of the issues raised is that they are not being guided towards apprenticeships at all. Now we are going from that situation to it being first choice. How do we intend to do that? Is it right to have that hierarchy? Do we need that hierarchy? Should we not advise students of every option and encourage them to pick the option that suits their interests and their knowledge?

Ms Sally Cao:

This is a big priority for the Department. The intention in the opening statement is not to say apprenticeships should be prioritised over other options. I agree with the Deputy in that. Our shared goal is to make sure the full range of education and training options are available to students so that they are visible, understood by them and their families, schools and guidance counsellors. The contextual piece here is that higher education is often seen as the preferred option, whether or not that is the right fit for an individual. We understand that parents want the best opportunities for their children. It is our collective goal to ensure that those opportunities are visible and understood.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We certainly have a job to do there because the feedback from apprentices is that it is not visible or understood. How do we intend to make it visible and ensure that the options are there and that students are aware of them?

Ms Sally Cao:

I agree completely there is a way to go. On the national survey for apprenticeships which SOLAS published this year, just 5% of students had heard about apprenticeships from their teacher and just 7% had heard about them from their guidance counsellor. The vast majority are hearing about them from their family and friends. That is not where we want to be. The Department and SOLAS have led on a range of actions to address this. This includes the sponsorship of the WorldSkills Ireland event, where every year 30,000 students are shown the importance and opportunities of a skills-based career. It is going to run at the same time as Higher Options, so there is that cross-pollination as well. SOLAS recognises the achievements of apprentices and their employers through the Apprentice of the Year and the Employer of the Year awards, which are important. The public sector has a big part to play as well. It is a huge employer of choice with 400,000 people working in the public sector. There is a big leadership role for organisations in that space. There also is the public service apprenticeship plan, which the Government published in 2023 and which targets a big growth in that area.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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In regard to those figures on 5% to 7%, where was that data from?

Ms Sally Cao:

That was from the national survey of apprentices in 2024. It was published this year. We can get the Deputy a copy.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That would be great.

Ms Nessa White:

As the parent of leaving certificate student who has just gone through the system, I absolutely agree. Our job is to make a wide range of options available which is why SOLAS is engaging directly with the National Parents Council, whose podcast I spoke on during the summer, and the Institute of Guidance Counsellors. We have, for a long time, attended their seminars and workshops but we need to do more. The Deputy is absolutely right.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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My last question is for the HEA. I have received some feedback on the scheduling of phase 4 and phase 6 craft apprenticeships across the institutes of technology and technological universities that suggests it is somewhat indiscriminate in terms of where the student ends up. Students do not find out until quite late where they will have to undertake phases 4 and 6. In some cases, students have to undertake phase 4 in one institution and phase 6 in a different one. That is causing a lot of concern for parents, as well as for the apprentices themselves. Can we streamline that better?

Dr. Vivienne Patterson:

I might ask Mr. Ferry to respond to that question because SOLAS allocates them to the different areas.

Mr. Con Ferry:

We work in partnership with the HEA to identify the places and where those places are. There are two instances where learners could be scheduled for an area that is further away from their home location than they would have expected. One of them is in what can be described as less-populated trades, where the facilities are only in a certain number of places in the country because it would not be viable to have them in every single location throughout the country. That is one instance that is similar to higher education, where they have to move away and go to the facility that is offering the provision. The second instance is where there is a late call. If someone refuses a place, that place will go to the next available person on the national waiting list, in the interests of fairness. Learners can refuse a place three times to try to get one closer to home or for certain circumstances. However, I would highlight, following on from previous committee meetings and some commentary, that where there are care or health issues, we make special provision in every way possible for learners who are being asked to travel. In the interests of effective scheduling, it is done on a pool system and learners are generally scheduled as close to their home location as we can provide.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations. The most recent apprenticeship action plan ran from 2021 to 2025, so we are obviously coming to the end of that. When can we expect to see the new action plan? We have heard from many apprentices in recent weeks and they have identified problems within the system. Have the witnesses talked to apprentices and will they be addressing those problems? Some of the problems relate to costs. Learners have fees to pay and in some cases they have equipment costs to meet. Some employers will provide equipment but others will not, so there are discrepancies there. Is there the possibility of a grant towards the cost of tools because they can be quite expensive? Also, as Deputy Connolly just mentioned, some learners have to move away from home for phases 4 and 6. They may already be paying a mortgage or rent and then they have to suddenly find alternative accommodation. They could be paying for accommodation in two places at the one time, which puts a lot of financial pressure on people. Something around location preferences for the education phases would be welcome.

The witnesses talked about addressing groups that are under-represented in apprentices, including women in the craft apprentices, people from the Traveller community and disabled people. We have met some of those groups over the past few weeks. The Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme is still only in pilot and is supported by the Dormant Accounts Fund. It is under review at the moment and that review should be completed soon. Is it envisaged that the programme will be put on a permanent footing with permanent funding? Both disabled people and Travellers mentioned that the pre-apprenticeship programme was very beneficial but that it is oversubscribed. Is that the same as the access to apprenticeships initiative? If so, can it be expanded?

Another issue that was mentioned, which happens in the North, is a social value procurement policy. Weighting is given to people being taken on as apprentices from communities that are under-represented in apprenticeships in general, with the aim of increasing the numbers.

I invite the witnesses to respond. If I have time, I will put some more questions to them.

Ms Sally Cao:

I will respond to the first question on the action plan for apprenticeships. As the Senator correctly identified, we are coming to the end of the lifetime of the current action plan. At the moment the Department is reviewing that action plan with the support of the OECD, which has been commissioned to conduct a review. That review includes engagement with stakeholder groups, including learners, employers, education providers and anyone else who is involved in the apprenticeship system. All of that feedback will inform our development of the next action plan, which is due to be published in 2026. In parallel, the Department is due to launch a public consultation to allow members of the public to have their say on what we should focus on in the next action plan.

The Government has highlighted a number of items for the Department to consider. In the programme for Government, as we mentioned earlier, there is a commitment to grow the apprenticeship system. This year the target is 10,000 annual registrations and the aim is to increase that further to 12,500 by the end of 2030, of which two thirds will be in the craft and construction space, recognising the direct tie between apprenticeship supply and national infrastructure delivery. Obviously as we grow the apprenticeship system, we will need employers and learners to come on board so part of our work will be considering the array of incentives that are available to employers and apprentices, both financial and otherwise, to keep it attractive and make sure that we can hit that target of 12,500. Part of that will definitely include the work we are currently doing on targeting underrepresented groups and seeing whether there are any ways we can strengthen that. A key pillar of the current action plan is to make sure that apprenticeships are accessible to everyone, no matter what their background or circumstances.

The Senator mentioned the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme. That is one where a bursary is available for both the apprentice and the employer at multiple points through that apprenticeship. That is currently undergoing a review, which will then inform what happens next on the bursary.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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On that issue, it was pointed out that many people from a Traveller background do not disclose their background because of a fear of discrimination, so many employers have not drawn down that grant. That is something that needs to be addressed.

Ms Sally Cao:

We have heard that as well and it is a concern because that should not be the case. One of the pillars in the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme is to address that bit around employers, particularly. One of the grants is for employers to encourage them to take on members of the Traveller community. However, the Senator is right that it depends on individuals identifying in the first place, which they may choose not to do.

I mentioned the public sector earlier and we see the public sector playing a leadership role in this regard and leading the private sector by example.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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On the annual apprenticeship registrations, Ms Cao said they are increasing all of the time, which is very welcome. Does the Department monitor completions in the same way? There is a level of drop out in certain apprenticeships. Does the Department actually look for information as to why that is happening?

Ms Sally Cao:

SOLAS collects that information and follows the apprentices through their journey. Our data on progression rates show that they actually compare very favourably to other education programmes. Approximately 90% of apprentices are progressing from the first to second year, year on year, which is very positive. I mentioned our survey earlier, which showed that over 85% reported that they enjoyed their apprenticeship experience.

Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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I pay tribute to our former member of the committee, Deputy Frank Feighan, on his contribution to the committee and I wish him well in his new role as Minister of State at the Department of public expenditure. As was said already, I hope we will be knocking on his door to help to support these guys. I welcome today's witnesses and their opening statements and congratulate Ms White as SOLAS interim CEO and wish her well in her role.

My contribution today is aimed at SOLAS. SOLAS's target is making the apprenticeship role pretty, I suppose, supporting the need of the apprentice and looking after the apprentice in his or her pathway or route. Over the past two committee meetings, we have had apprentices in here giving their histories, where they are in their pathway courses, and the positives and negatives. To be frank, the positives are greater than the negatives but unfortunately, I have to ask the negative questions on behalf of those apprentices.

A simple synopsis of it is the fees. Even the purchase of tools on apprenticeships is a big factor. The biggest factor, as Deputy Connolly has alluded to, is the lotto system as it was explained to us. Given the significant financial and logistical burden apprentices face when required to travel long distances for off-the-job training, what steps is SOLAS taking or could take to ensure greater access to apprenticeship programmes in colleges closer to apprentices' homes and workplaces? Are there plans to expand regional delivery capacity or introduce more flexible, hybrid models to reduce these costs and improve participation?

In a brief synopsis, there are Dublin students currently studying in Munster Technological University, MTU, in Tralee. That is not acceptable across any board. There are Kerry students studying phase 4 in Waterford. That is not acceptable. They are criss-crossing and doing four-hour journeys. With the accommodation and the cost of everything right now to move for 12 weeks during phases 4 or 6 is overwhelming. I have meat on the bone on this issue and it is one that really needs to be prioritised across the country right now for the people and families. We do not want anyone to be sleeping in a car because he or she cannot get accommodation to turn up to class. That is forbidden. I know Mr. Ferry mentioned it and in the interests of fairness, I accept all of that. There is no point in sending some kid who does not meet one of the set of the criteria to the other end of the world when another kid can, either healthwise or whatever. Will Mr. Ferry answer that question? It is a really negative thing out there.

Mr. Con Ferry:

I thank the Senator. To reiterate, it is our absolute intention to send people as close to their home location as we possibly can. In terms of the specifics, I would be interested in having a chat with the Senator and getting the details from him. I can check them out, no problem at all. I would be happy to do that and give some answers to that. However, it may well be that it is part and parcel of a specific programme. If I take a programme for example, construction plant fitting-----

Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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It is the electrical programme.

Mr. Con Ferry:

Okay, the electrical programme is widely available so I am happy to look into that. There are particular programmes that only run in certain locations but in the case of electrical, there is no reason that would have happened other than maybe a late call or it just being the next available place within the national waiting list. Like before, there is always that option and I understand people are keen to complete their apprenticeships as quickly as they can and to take up the places. There should have been an option in electrical but I will look into it and provide the Senator with some firm answers on the specifics. That is no problem.

Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Ferry. I previously also raised with the Minister the issue of funding and sustainability. There were funding pressures in 2025. Mr. Ferry noted the funding pressures emerged in early 2025, particularly around State allowances for apprentices and this was resolved without cuts to other programmes, which is very significant. Will Mr. Ferry clarify what structural changes, if any, have been made to ensure the long-term financial sustainability of the apprenticeship system as it continues to expand? We have targets and of 12,000 and are nearly at 13,000. I do not want there to be a crash in 2026 where something could fall down.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies, I have business in the Chamber. Will Senator Tully jump in for me please? I will return, out of breath, in a minute.

Ms Nessa White:

I thank the Senator. The complexity of the system we have outlined is where some of the challenges have arisen such as the expansion and all of the other reasons. What I can assure him of is our close working with the Department, the HEA and SOLAS. In terms of 2026, it will be a very different year. We are scheduling in line with phase 2 registrations, what has been forecast, working very closely with the HSE around the number that have been called to the higher education institutions and the funding available within the Department's envelope. There will be a very structured approach in 2026 and no shortfall in terms of what we have planned and budgeted for.

Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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I will finish on this. I think it was Senator Tully who mentioned it. There is a drop-out rate in the current apprenticeship programme. What is it at, like Senator Tully asked? What are the factors? Is it something I have mentioned already? What is contributing to the drop-out? Really, apprentices are the new millionaires of the future we are heading into so I would love to know what the factors are.

Mr. Con Ferry:

I suppose, like any programme in line with higher education or any programme that is undertaken, there will be an element of non-completion. A huge factor that had occurred is emigration with people deciding midway through the programme that the grass may be greener in other climes and heading off. What we do have, and this is unique for apprenticeships, is that an apprenticeship is put on pause and people can resume it when they come back. Some of the perceived drop-outs may be non-completion rather than drop-outs, and they will be undertaken. We get that every day of the week, where people come back and resume an apprenticeship they started some years back. There is an element of stepping in and stepping out to this as well. With any programme, there is difficulty around the assessments and navigating them, or maybe people just come to the realisation it is not for them. Other than that it would be speculative to give reasons for it. I am sure there are themes throughout any-----

Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Ferry have figures on that, though? Does he have figures on those who state they wish to continue in a few years' time? Does Mr. Ferry have a drop-out figure?

Mr. Con Ferry:

The figures are very favourable once apprentices get moving through the system. Initially, we look at 92% progressing through phase 2. That is roughly what we are looking at. Phase 2 is typically the biggest challenge in terms of people getting themselves back into a learning zone and navigating assessments and so on. When people go to phase 4 and phase 6 it is much higher; it is around 98%.

Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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That is excellent.

Mr. Con Ferry:

That is probably as they are becoming more au fait with what they are doing.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. In terms of career guidance counsellors, is there a system that could be put in place? It was a massive issue here and the figures show it. Career guidance counsellors in schools should be more or less guided that this is the direction they need to go. Having the event Ms Cao mentioned - I cannot remember its name - to which people come up, it needs to come from career guidance counsellors themselves because some students see it as a day out, they do not see it for what it is, that is that it is career progression for them.

In terms of the Travelling community, the fact it is funded from the Dormant Accounts Fund really needs to change. That sends a signal to them that they are not worthy of continuing funding and that is wrong. They were promised in the programme for Government of 2020, a new national Traveller and Roma inclusion strategy, NTRIS, including an employment, enterprise and trade strategy. That has not even come to fruition for them so it can be seen why they are sitting on that side saying they were promised all of this and are not getting it.

On the issue of disclosure, while it may be up to the individual to disclose who they are and where they are coming from, the reason for not doing so is past experience of discrimination. It is not because they do not want to disclose it. That really needs to be stamped out. I am not sure what needs to be put in place. I suggested public bodies and county councils take on these apprenticeships. That would mean there is no need for disclosure. They can go in and do their apprenticeships and we can build on those success stories.

On the issue of apprentices meeting each other going across the country, that does not make sense. We could not be told who placed these people in these different places, so it is good to find out it is SOLAS. We could not find that out at the last committee meeting. It is happening across all of them; it is not just certain individuals. It has been brought up here time and again that people going from Donegal down to Cork meet people going from Cork up to Donegal. Could we put in a CAO-type system whereby there is a choice? There has to be something. Their travel and accommodation allowance is a pittance and has not increased for many years.

As to consortia-led apprenticeships, were they not a failure in the UK? If so, why are we continuing with that system?

On the funding backlog, while it is great to see funding coming in, where did it come from? It was stated that it did not affect other services but the local training initiative, LTI, in Cashel lost tutors and 14 young students lost their places. There is no explanation for that. They are saying they did not cut the funding. If they did not cut the funding, why are they gone? Funding had to have come from somewhere else to fund this. It is great to see the funding. I cannot take that away. I thank the witnesses for coming in and answering the questions.

Ms Nessa White:

I thank the Deputy for her questions. On her first point on the Institute of Guidance Counsellors, it is actually principals, teachers and parents. As many of us know, the conversation that happens around the kitchen table is fundamental. The Deputy is right about the day out. In my house, that is how it is viewed. We really are targeting that as something different. We are of a similar mind to the HEA. There should be a range of options so the fit is right. We are driven to change that and we have a new FET strategy being finalised in line with what we want to look towards. That will certainly be a part of it.

On the assignment piece, I have been a short time in this role but I think we can do some analysis of what the Deputy is saying and come back to her in committee or outside with our own analysis. It is something we need to reflect on. If the Deputy is hearing stories and they are not just once-off stories, that is something we need to address.

To address the Deputy's well-made point on the 14 students impacted by the decision of an ETB, the crucial piece is that it is a decision at ETB level based on the funding it received. For 2026, it will be the very same. What I can assure the Deputy we are doing differently for 2026, like I assured Senator Kennelly, is we are engaging with ETBs around what they need to do to plan their FET provision in a way that aligns with funding so that decisions like that are not taken in isolation or without considering the impact and consequences. That funding last year was apprenticeship-specific and there was not funding taken from other elements. That engagement is happening directly with ETBs as soon as Monday of next week.

Ms Sally Cao:

The UK system is quite different from our system, with a wider range of what is accepted under an apprenticeship. We are always interested in international best practice. There will be positives and negatives of their system versus ours, for sure. One of the reasons we commissioned the OECD to do the review of our action plan was its in-depth knowledge and evidence base on what is good and working well. Importantly, when best practice can be applied to our system, they are not so different that it would not work. We look forward to the outcomes and recommendations of the review.

On the Traveller apprenticeship programme, any discrimination against a protected class is completely unacceptable and against the law. It is very disappointing to hear that is happening out there. This programme is in the pilot phase. An apprenticeship takes, on average, two to four years. The apprenticeships that many members of the Traveller community are engaged in are the four-year craft apprenticeships. The scheme was put in place in 2023 and we need to let it run for the full course and learn from what has and has not worked well. There will be a review process for the pilot and out of that will be recommendations for the next phase.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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The question on where the extra funding for the backlog came from was not answered.

Ms Sally Cao:

A big priority for the Minister has been looking at apprenticeship funding and how to resolve it in a sustainable way this year. It will be under discussion in the Supplementary Estimates taken later today by the select committee. The Minister has prioritised capital funding onto the apprenticeship funding by delaying capital projects.

Dr. Vivienne Patterson:

I will make a couple of points on promotion of apprenticeships. We should acknowledge the massive increase in the number of apprentices over the past ten years. The promotion is working. Could more be done? Absolutely. It is a demand-driven course. It is also important in promoting apprenticeships that they are not promoted as, "You don't have to go to college. You can do an apprenticeship." Actually, it is going to college. It is just an alternative route to getting a qualification you get if you go through further or higher education. It is not a totally different thing; it is just an alternative pathway.

With regard to career guidance counsellors, Ms White is right when she says it is about hearts and minds. We have to talk to parents as much as we do to career guidance counsellors. Career guidance teachers have a lot to do and we are competing against a CAO handbook that is easy for them to look at and explain. Apprenticeship is kind of complex. It is employment. In the first instance, you have to find an employer. We and SOLAS need to do a bit of work on how somebody can find a position and an employer. That is a real challenge for many people and seems very daunting. Whereas it is easy to find a place in a college, it is kind of daunting to find an employer to take you on. We have a bit of work to do on that in terms of the apprenticeship portal and how we advertise places.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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Our next member to speak is Deputy O'Connell, who is online.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Go raibh maith agat.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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Deputy, can I just ask you to confirm you are in Leinster House, please?

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I am actually not. Is that a problem?

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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Yes, it is. Unfortunately, you cannot participate in a public meeting unless you are on the grounds of Leinster House.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Okay, thank you.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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We move on to Deputy Ó Súilleabháin.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses. They are very welcome here. We have had a good run at the subject of apprenticeships in recent months. We have had many perspectives. I agree with the last point that there needs to better communication in secondary schools about apprenticeships. It is not talked about like it was 30 or 40 years ago. There has been a big gap. I will not rehash it but that was a point I was making in recent months. We deviated into a third level university path and forgot the basics like bus drivers and builders, or retrofitting in modern cases. Those are real skills which we all know we need.

I agree with the assessment model for apprenticeships being devolved to the ETBs.

I was on the Waterford and Wexford Education and Training Board, WWETB, for ten years, and I would like to see things more devolved locally anyway. We listened to the apprentices recently. It is really important that the voices of the apprentices themselves are first and foremost in all these plans. I will reiterate some of Senator Tully's points earlier on what we heard back regarding the need for funding and grants for the provision of equipment. As that is a big problem, I wonder about the plans around that. It is about keeping it as local as possible for apprenticeships so people do not have the extra burden of travel and transport. A lot of them do not have transport. Some of the areas I am thinking of do not have proper public transport for access to these centres. That is a huge turn-off. Then, of course, accommodation is nearly impossible for a young person. It is really important that the witnesses are cognisant of all of that. Are there any plans to address that?

We also heard from those within under-represented groups, such as women, Travellers and those with disabilities. The witnesses might also look at that. Are there any extra plans around that? Members of the Traveller community highlighted the great difficulty they had in accessing an employer. That is something the witnesses will need to address as well because there is a lot of discrimination against Travellers in lots of aspects of life. It would be terrible if there are barriers to getting into universities. There are a lot of obstacles there so, certainly, we would not want to see any sorts of barriers to having an apprenticeship. Are there any plans to address this?

It is crucial that we reduce the need for overseas staff, where possible, as was mentioned earlier. It does not make sense if there are people here who are happy to do a job and they are not trained up to do the job. Obviously, we want to be getting local people to do the local jobs. It is better for everybody if it can be like that rather than having to rely on searching all across the world to bring in staff who also have to be accommodated. It does not make sense that there are these skill shortages when we have people willing to do the work locally if the conditions are right. The witnesses might expand on the plans to address that please.

Dr. Vivienne Patterson:

I can come in on access and the Traveller community. The access to apprenticeship programme runs in two centres currently in Athlone and Limerick but it will be resuming in TU Dublin in January and it will take three intakes. What is really great about the access to apprenticeship programme is that we have had great success with the Traveller community. What it will do when it brings them in is help them to get an employer to take them on for a full-time apprenticeship when they finish their 18-month course. There has been a lot of success there.

The Deputy spoke about the voice of the apprentice. There are apprentices on the National Apprenticeship Alliance committee, so their voices are heard in that forum, which is really important.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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That is good. I am delighted to hear that they are on that forum. That is brilliant.

Ms Nessa White:

I will come in on a couple of the Deputy's points as well. We had a very good example in Gorey a few weeks ago when we had a careers day where all three post-primary schools came together and the Rose of Tralee attended, which exemplified the apprenticeship piece being at the heart of what the guidance counsellors in those three schools do in terms of more of that communication and openness. Dr. Patterson has identified where we can do things differently and build on the good work that has been done.

I am aware of the Deputy's involvement with the ETB and the assessment piece. Deputy Connolly highlighted how we want to be and are assured that it is a system that is as good, if not an improved, system in what we are moving to. We will come back to the Deputy with some updated details on the accommodation piece and the travel expense. There are some real, valid suggestions.

On the disclosure in terms of the Traveller community, I know from engaging with some members that it is always the issue. Getting the employer to register them and then the disclosure piece has been a challenge forever, and that resilience has been something they have had no choice but to address. Going back to Ms Cao's point around the public sector piece, which Deputy McGettigan addressed, it is a potential area we need to look at. In SOLAS, we employ apprentices because we walk the walk. Can we do that some more in that public sector space? It would really demonstrate a whole-of-government commitment to what we are doing. We will definitely take that away to look at it.

Finally, on the voice of the apprentice, for us in SOLAS the voice of the learner is crucial to what we are doing. In our engagement in the 16 strategic dialogues we had with ETBs in the last year, we had a learner in the centre of the room at every one of those, from apprentices to FET learners in general. It was really interesting for their feedback to be given and for them to grow in confidence and ask why some of the feedback had not been addressed. That is certainly something we will be building on internally in SOLAS and then in the wider apprenticeship piece.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms White very much. That is excellent. I did not get to go to that Rose of Tralee event. If Ms White would not mind, she might tell me a little bit more about how it went between the three schools, because it was a fantastic idea.

Ms Nessa White:

This is something that has been building in Gorey over time. Really, we are very lucky in the three schools in Gorey that we have guidance counsellors who really get the myriad of options. As Dr. Patterson said, they go further than the CAO handbook and really look at a fit for the student with what is on offer. As the Deputy knows, we have engagement with further education institutions outside of Gorey that are still in the Deputy's constituency in the Wicklow area. What happened in Gorey was that three schools came together. They had representation from higher education institutions, further education institutions, apprenticeships and employers. It was a really successful event where one of the really creative and, I suppose, brave guidance counsellors put a request to the Rose of Tralee as an example of a female in an apprenticeship and what they could do, and she agreed to show up. She was also at our table at the Apprentice of the Year Awards ceremony. If ever we wanted somebody who can show people they can do it all, that was it. Certainly, having first-hand experience of a student who attended - for a 17-year-old boy engaging him in anything is sometimes challenging - he was absolutely full of all the things that could be a potential for him. That model is something we will be trying to encourage guidance counsellors and principals to replicate.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Well done. That was a brilliant initiative.

Ms Nessa White:

I cannot take any of the credit for it I am afraid. That I am lucky enough to live in Gorey is probably the only reason I know about it.

Ms Sally Cao:

I will just add a piece on the question of disability. In the National Apprenticeship Alliance, which Dr. Patterson just spoke to, there is an access and inclusion subcommittee. It specifically meets to advise on having a more inclusive apprenticeship system. One of the big pieces of work it did this year was to produce guidance for apprenticeship employers on being disability inclusive in the workplace, which is very positive. The data from the survey we have been talking about shows that 5% declared disability within the people who responded to the survey. Therefore, the challenge and the questions for us are is that right, is it under-reporting and is it the right reporting? In 2026, SOLAS is going to conduct an equal access survey to establish the baseline of where apprentices are coming from in terms of whether they are under-represented groups to allow us to better target our policy measures.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Cao.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank everybody very much. I am sorry I was late; I was speaking in the Dáil Chamber, so there were conflicting times. I did read the opening statements, however.

Over the past number of weeks, what has been fascinating is to learn the breadth of apprenticeships that are available to young people in particular. One of the things I have been concerned about, though, is the fact that although I know the witnesses are doing work to advertise it and say this is how it is, I still find that there are people who do not know about it. Over the last number of years, I have also met children who have gone through the process of the CAO, and apprenticeships are really not being mentioned unless it is coming. I worked in a school completion programme and I have been around schools for a long time. Unless somebody in the school is driving it and showing parents, they are not aware. As a parent, sometimes we are reliant on the school, particularly from the career guidance to say when students apply for the CAO and so on. What I would love to see is every career guidance teacher in the country getting training on this or a continuing professional development, CPD, day to explain how to do it. Last week, when young people who were apprentices appeared before the committee, I asked the question of how they apply, and they explained it to me.

My understanding of it is that it is very difficult. An apprentice has to identify an employer. It is very difficult for a young person from a disadvantaged background, or who has a disability or is a young Traveller woman, who does not have that agency behind them. There will be people applying for the bursaries that are available. I echo what was said about dormant accounts. It should come from central funding, not dormant accounts.

I am concerned. I know the numbers are growing but, as was said, it is not "instead of" third level; it is third level. We need to get that messaging really correct because the young people who have come here over the past while have been so happy in their apprenticeships. Any young people I meet feel they have, in some cases, finally found their true worth and how they learn. Sometimes, school does not necessarily fulfil those things. Is there a plan to help career guidance teachers, in particular, to roll that out? I know they will bring students to different fairs and, as the previous Deputy said, it is a day out. It is a day out for everybody and we all love having a day out. Even from here, we might like a day out. They are so important but it is then about how people actually apply and the nuts and bolts of it.

I might come back in because I have a question about progression and then transferring.

Ms Sally Cao:

We completely agree with the Deputy that there is a lot more to be done. We all understand that apprenticeship is just a mode of learning and an alternative option next to all the other tertiary education options. The Deputy spoke to the expansion of the programmes in recent years. We now have 78 national apprenticeship programmes spanning things such as hairdressing and social work. People can get a PhD in engineering through the apprenticeship system. The important thing is we get that message out there so that the information is available, visible and understood. Colleagues spoke earlier to a piece of work we need to do collectively to improve that for the system and the public.

I do not think the Deputy was in the room when we spoke about the statistics on this. Only 5% of apprentices in the latest survey had heard about apprenticeships from their teachers and only 7% heard about them from their career guidance counsellors. To her point that there is a path to be travelled here-----

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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Last week, young people talked about seeing it on social media, which was fascinating, and Dublin Bus, for example, had advertised it. It so important because that is where they are it. They do not listen to parents, sometimes, and maybe not teachers, but they are on social media and are captured by it.

Ms Sally Cao:

The Department has a Building Heroes campaign, which is basically that. It is peer to peer. I understand young people listen to each other rather than people of a different generation, so we are targeting them in that way. We are trying to get that information out to schools through the careers in construction action plan.

The challenge is to get information to them well before they are making those decisions. The CAO is probably too late. It is a big decision and a personal decision. Lots of things go into it. It is about how you as an individual see yourself, your brand and your identity in the future. The pre-apprenticeship courses that are running are important in that space. Another thing that is important is transition year. SOLAS has a programme with the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, on that. There is now a suite of modules, iVET, offering further education and training programmes, including apprenticeship taster courses to schools at that level. That is the kind of thing we want to be thinking about in the context of the next action plan as well.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I will ask Mr. Ferry a question about completion rates. What was the number he gave for phase 2? He said that was the hardest year, which I understand if people are going back to learning. I went back to learning a little while ago, and my brain was like, "What?". It is so hard when you go from one thing to another. What was the completion rate he mentioned? Following on from that, is there a way of transferring? For example, if somebody was doing one apprenticeship and it was not for them, as happens with courses, can they transfer to a different one? Is that possible and how does it work?

Mr. Con Ferry:

We ran some figures on the progression rates in preparation for coming in. The progression rates from phase 2 are approximately 92%; from phase 4 onwards they are 98%; and from phase 6 onwards they are 98%.

People can transfer from one programme to another, but it does not necessarily mean they will get off at the same landing point. It just depends on the relevance of the experience they had exposure to. There is a recognition of prior learning, RPL, process for that. If someone had completed, for example, an electrical programme and wanted to move to an electrical instrumentation programme, or vice versa, there are transferable skills and things you would expect to see in one programme that you would also see in another. However, it may not cover all of the skills and there may be a requirement to meet those as part of the journey. There is an option. Typically, there will be that RPL process and then someone would be pitched at whatever level their skills and exposure has brought them to.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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That is great. I thank Mr. Ferry very much.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies. I thank the Senator for calling into me. We usually have Taoiseach's questions on a different day, Tuesday, but they have been moved forward for obvious reasons with the big news yesterday. I wanted to take my opportunity to ask the Taoiseach the questions I wanted to ask.

I apologise for my absence but I thank the witnesses for coming in and engaging with us. I am looking forward to listening back to the parts that I missed. It is an important issue. Over the past couple of weeks, we have engaged with many groups and stakeholders. We see the value of apprenticeships and the investment that goes into them. I am ambitious for the next round of apprenticeships and what the plans can be. Does Deputy Connolly have a follow-up question?

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I have one or two questions arising from some of the responses. A number of witnesses mentioned the success of the access to apprenticeship initiative, which is limited to one institution. Have we ever looked at expanding that, or can we?

Dr. Vivienne Patterson:

It is in two institutions. It is in TU Dublin and in TUS, on both of their campuses at Athlone and Limerick.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The numbers are small.

Dr. Vivienne Patterson:

The numbers are small but they are small for a reason. Generally, a cohort is about 16. It is an amazing programme. It is my favourite thing I do in apprenticeship because the difference between these people when they come in on day one and when they graduate is just absolutely unbelievable. I have been at a few graduations and to see their parents and guardians there is fantastic. The numbers need to be kept small in order to be able to give people the supports they require in the very early days of the programme. We have been speaking to MTU about expanding it there. We hope to progress those discussions this year. It is growing slowly but we hope to grow it even faster.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Patterson mentioned the issue of the CAO handbook. We have been pondering for a couple of weeks why it is that students are not opting for the apprenticeship programme. Maybe they see it, to go back to the first point that was made, as a second option. If it comes down to the simplicity of having an equal handbook, surely, we can develop it.

Dr. Vivienne Patterson:

We do have that. As far as I am aware, we have packs that go out to career guidance counsellors in each of the secondary schools. I think it is about the ease of being able to apply for a place through the CAO as opposed to actually having to find yourself an employer. That is where the difficulty is. As agencies, we need to get a little better about trying to link people with employers.

Ms Nessa White:

I will add that one of the big changes we achieved over the course of the latest FET strategy was to have the link to apprenticeship.ie on the landing page for the CAO, so that equal parity of esteem is there. Absolutely, there is more work to do in that regard.

On the question on the higher education programmes, we are engaging with the ETBs around pre-apprenticeship programmes to be considered in their ETBs. As Ms Cao mentioned, the iVET programme is a really good one for TY students. Again, I am happy to send the committee a one-pager on what that does. It certainly opens students' eyes to the potential opportunities that are there.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Again, on behalf of the committee I thank all the witnesses for their attendance and engagement. It is clear that there is a lot for us to do and to learn. We will suspend to allow the witnesses to depart and then go into private session to deal with housekeeping matters.