Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I advise members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via MS Teams that, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction. As the witnesses will probably be aware, the committee will publish the opening statement on its website following the meeting.

The witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

I welcome the ambassador for Canada, H.E. Mr. Dennis King, and his colleague, counsellor for trade and economic policy at the Mission of Canada to the European Union, Mr. Christopher O'Toole, to the meeting today to discuss the bilateral relationship between Canada and Ireland. The format of this meeting is that we will hear the ambassador's opening statement, followed by a question-and-answer session with the members of the committee. I ask members to be concise in their questions to allow all members the opportunity to participate. The ambassador is very welcome here today. I now pass the floor to him to make his opening statement.

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach very much and I wish him, Deputies and Senators a good afternoon. It is my honour to be with everyone here today, along with Mr. Christopher O’Toole, a trade specialist at the Mission of Canada to the European Union in Brussels, to discuss the historic, vibrant and strategic Canada-Ireland relationship. I hope that our exchanges today are useful as I know several members are preparing for what is sure to be a successful and informative mission to Canada in a few weeks’ time. In my experience, the most interesting part of any speaking engagement is the question-and-answer period, so I will keep my opening comments brief.

In 2024, Canada and Ireland marked 85 years of official diplomatic relations but our shared history is measured in centuries. The influence of the Irish in Canada is seen in our national symbols, heard in our music and felt in the hearts of many Canadians from coast to coast, not least the nearly four and a half million of us who claim an Irish background; a lineage that is celebrated nationally every March since 2022 as Irish Heritage Month. In 2027, we will commemorate 180 years since 1847, the peak year of Famine migration, when so many Irish people sought a new home in Canada.

Now, Canada and Ireland are challenged to build on our strong connections and shared values to meet the current moment. Rising geopolitical tensions, the Russian invasion of Ukraine and other conflicts, as well as protectionist trade policies, are undermining multilateral co-operation, straining the rules-based international order and threatening global economic stability. We must continue to argue the democratic case for open trade, climate action and support for Ukraine among other global priorities. At a time when regional insecurity and mercantilist approaches to trade risk limiting our peoples’ safety and prosperity, it is imperative that Canada and Ireland work harder than ever to create a secure, conducive environment for connections between our communities, businesses and research institutions.

The foundation of Canada-Ireland bilateral trade is the Canada-EU Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, CETA. Signed in 2016, this agreement eliminates tariffs on 99% of goods traded between the EU and Canada and opens the doors in services trade, government procurement and labour mobility. It does so in a manner that reflects our shared values and high standards, preserving the ability of Canada and of EU member states to regulate in the public interest, including on public health, the environment and labour rights. Along with its associated strategic partnership agreement, CETA was negotiated by Canada and EU member states to be a modern and adaptable framework that would unlock untapped potential in our economic relations, and so it did. CETA’s benefits for Ireland and Canada are clear and compelling. Since the start of its provisional application in 2017, Irish merchandise exports to Canada have more than doubled in value. In certain sectors, the increase is staggering. For example, the bilateral trade in clean technology and environmental products and services is up by 292% in CETA’s first seven years. Further, Irish beef exports to Canada have grown by more than 14 times, agrifood and seafood exports have increased by 66% and pharmaceutical products exports have grown by 153%.

The positive business environment created by the provisional application of CETA has enabled the growth of Canadian direct investment in Ireland, where 27,000 Irish jobs are directly and indirectly supported by over 75 Canadian-owned or Canadian-invested companies. Many of these are household names, such as Circle K, Irish Life and Intact Insurance, which was recently rebranded from RSA. Others operate essential parts of Ireland’s energy infrastructure, such as the Whitegate refinery near Cork and the Corrib gas field off the coast of Mayo.

As for all good trade agreements, the economic benefits go both ways. In 2024, Ireland’s foreign direct investment stock in Canada climbed to $19.3 billion, a strong 4.6% increase from 2023. This growth positions Ireland as Canada’s tenth largest global source of FDI and supports the nearly 150 Irish companies that employ over 34,000 Canadians.

As we celebrate these positive trends, there is more we can do to fully realise the potential of our countries as the natural gateway for each other into Europe and to North America. Full ratification of CETA by all EU member states, including Ireland, will enact suspended protection measures for investors and provide additional stability and predictability for our businesses to allow them to do what they do best, that is, to create and scale up new companies and invest in critical infrastructure and other projects, creating jobs for our workers and prosperity for our communities.

Now more than ever, we must double down on strengthening links with trusted partners that share our values.

The potential is enormous, as demonstrated recently by a major report launched by the Taoiseach, Micheál Martin, during his 25 September visit to Ottawa, entitled "Beyond Barriers: Deepening Canada–Ireland Trade and Investment". This report was prepared by the Conference Board of Canada, and it estimates that if specified measures are implemented by both countries, trade in goods could increase by as much as US $1.5 billion across 13 key product categories, including aircraft and vehicle parts as well as chemical products. This would boost goods trade by 37% above current levels. The report also outlines several high-potential services sectors poised for further trade expansion, most notably finance, management consulting and the tech sector as well as insurance and pension services.

We in Canada, Government and businesses alike, are committed to working with our Irish partners to seize these opportunities. We also hope that CETA ratification will proceed successfully in the coming weeks and months. This would provide our businesses and investors with the certainty they need and send a strong message to opponents of rules-based free and fair trade. CETA demonstrates that trade agreements can support meaningful and sustainable economic growth and facilitate the energy transition, so that the benefits of open, inclusive and rules-based trade can be shared more broadly in our societies.

Ladies and gentlemen, the historic and yet forward-thinking Canada-Ireland relationship is marked by our shared efforts to build a more prosperous future for our communities and our urgent, necessary actions to defend peace and security on the global stage. I know these efforts will continue, and I look forward to members' questions. I thank everyone very much. Go raibh maith agaibh.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the ambassador very much. We will now open it up to questions. The first person I have on the list is Deputy McCarthy.

Noel McCarthy (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The ambassador and Mr. O'Toole are very welcome. As the ambassador said, we have shared over 85 years of relations with Canada. It is very heartening to hear.

I just have a few questions, if that is okay. What opportunities does Canada see for expanding trade with Ireland under CETA, especially in emerging sectors like greentech, sciences and so on? Are there specific barriers Canadian companies encounter when operating in Ireland that we should be aware of?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I thank the Deputy very much for his question. As I outlined in my opening remarks, if the Deputy has not already, I would encourage him and the other members of the committee to read the Conference Board of Canada report, entitled "Beyond Barriers: Deepening Canada–Ireland Trade and Investment", which does not just do a remarkable job of measuring the trade agreement to date, but also includes the blueprint for what the future could be between Ireland and Canada. It lays out a couple of key strategic areas, 13 in particular, around clean technology, finance and other opportunities. When I meet Irish businesses and when we introduce Canadian businesses to Ireland, the one thing we continually talk about is how, although we have made amazing strides in trade, both sides of the Atlantic think we are just at the tip of the iceberg of what we could be getting at. The Conference Board of Canada's report outlines the potential for another US $1.5 billion to US $2 billion for opportunities, so I would say they are immense, and certainly not limited to, but led by, those 13 key categories that are outlined in the report.

Noel McCarthy (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the ambassador. On transatlantic transport connectivity, what are Canada's priorities in strengthening air connectivity with Europe? Is there interest in expanding direct routes to and from western Canada, Vancouver, Edmonton, etc.?

Then, with cultural links, how can we make sure exchange programmes, youth mobility and university partnerships continue?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I only arrived in my posting in April, and it has been quite a whirlwind. I would say, however, being from the east coast of Canada that I was aware of the connections between Halifax and direct routes from Toronto and Montreal. I was very surprised to learn of the growing Irish diaspora in Vancouver, which is now allowing airlines to justify direct flights from Vancouver and Calgary. In fact, in the summertime, there are 13 direct flights from Canada to Dublin and Ireland. Once again, having travelled on those with my wife, they are all very full when we are travelling back and forth. Some of them are still seasonal. Not to get into too many more complex discussions, but the air passenger cap at Dublin Airport is a challenge for some of the Canadian airlines to do long-term planning. However, I believe that the growth in our history and the economic opportunities and cultural opportunities that are there will more than sustain the growth of those flights and more if we are able to do so. Historically and culturally, Ireland is everywhere in Canada, as the members know. Your music is amazing. We have welcomed film and TV companies from Canada to partner with those in Ireland. I do, therefore, think the opportunities are immense. We have been doing some of that, but there is an opportunity to do much more, and we certainly hope to do so.

Noel McCarthy (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is good to hear that things are being continued and it is getting better. I have only one more question, Chair, if that is all right?

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is no problem.

Noel McCarthy (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Are there challenges in Canada in migration management where Ireland can be a partner? Is that a problem in Canada?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

Canada is known for many things, and one of the things we are most proud of and most known for worldwide is to be such a home for multiculturalism and a very open society. Like other places, such as Ireland, there are challenges around houses and accommodating a vast growing population. Canada has done a very good, strong and reasonable job of being open to immigrants from all over the world - "new Canadians", as we call them. Canada, like Ireland, when people get there are very free to express their political and religious viewpoints. Canada is probably close to 41 million now in population. We have a tremendous land base, and we have the ability to house even more. Our Government is working right now to try to do that in a very responsible way so that when people come to Canada and call Canada home, they have access to all the programmes, services and necessities they need to have a good life. We can learn from each other on that. I think we do learn from each other, but there are many more opportunities as well.

Noel McCarthy (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the ambassador.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The next person I have on the list is Senator O'Reilly.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I welcome our guests. We are very proud that their Prime Minister has strong Irish heritage. He is a very impressive individual on the world stage as well.

I will ask about a few things. Irish farmers at the moment feel threatened by Mercosur and its implications in the sense that they feel threatened by beef and whatever potentially coming in from South America. That is perceived as a real threat at the moment by farmers. Hence, the link to Canada in the beef trade and sales there could be of extraordinary importance in an Irish context. Would the ambassador comment on the potential for more there? It is significant, and it has increased significantly over the last three years since the provisional implementation of CETA. The ambassador might comment on the potential for the Irish beef industry and agriculture.

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I thank the Senator. One of the many things that Canada and Ireland share is the fact that agriculture is such a driving force, not just of our economy but really the fabric of who we are as a people. I know from my own past experiences that when we were entering into a trade agreement such as CETA, agriculture at home is very sensitive and very aware of what the challenges might be, just like I believe Irish beef farmers were at the beginning of this. I would not be able to speak to the particulars around Mercosur, to be honest-----

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Okay.

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

-----but I would be open to say that-----

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am more interested in the potential in Canada as an antidote, if you like.

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

Yes, for sure.

Beef exports to Canada have grown by more than 14 times since the provisional implementation of CETA. Canada has a growing population so I think the opportunity is greater for that. I would not be saying anything out of school to say that Irish beef is world renowned; it is the standard, I would say. I know from my past experiences being involved in politics at a provincial level that there is a lot of cross-pollination between Canadian beef and Irish beef. For example, with the bull semen that comes out of Alberta has long been part of the Irish beef pedigree, so to speak. I think the long-standing interest is that-----

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In other words, there is much more to be achieved there.

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I do think so. In Canada, we put a premium on quality. Irish beef is of the highest quality and I think as our population grows and more people experience that type of export there would be-----

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is a very important message in Ireland in the present context because we have all been lobbied about the implications of Mercosur. The Irish diaspora in Canada is enormous and as a country we have not tapped into the tourism potential of that sufficiently. Obviously, Newfoundland is a glaring example, but it is right through Canada. As the ambassador said, it is reflected in the music and in all facets. Does he see potential for increasing the tourism product and the links between our two countries in the tourism sphere?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I would say yes. In my short time here, anecdotally I am experiencing it, because it seems that everybody who comes to Ireland from Prince Edward Island, and they are now measured in the hundreds, from a very small place, all come to the embassy and want to see me. I do see that anecdotally it is growing. Some of the news back in Canada shows that the travel habits of Canadians are changing. We used to regularly visit countries such as the United States but that is changing a little bit. I think Ireland is at the top of the line in terms of what Canadians may be looking for.

Increasing air access and having a sustainable consistent air link is critical. It is also important to keep Ireland top of mind within Canada as a destination to visit. The members may have an opportunity to do this if they visit in a couple of weeks' time.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In fact, Prince Edward Island has very strong links with my own constituency of Monaghan.

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

It sure does.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There are very strong links there. I ask the ambassador to sum up what he thinks about a few areas. I know so much has been achieved so far and his opening statement set out a very bright and encouraging picture of what exists at the moment in terms of trade between our two countries and interaction on a commercial level generally, with services, etc. What does he visualise as a consequence of CETA? How does he see all that going? What further level of potential is in it?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

If we consider the hard and fast numbers there is a potential of US$1.5 billion more in terms of increasing that trade. I also try to boil it down to be a little bit simpler. These investments get made one job at a time and one dollar at a time. In smaller jurisdictions like Ireland or Canada, they are more felt directly in communities. If we look at it not just from the macro but also the micro, the opportunities here are immense. I stress the importance of continuing to do business with like-minded, trustworthy, rules-based places. Ireland and Canada share so much in that regard.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I have very little time, but will ask a quick question. Given Canada's current state of relations with the US, is there another opportunity for its trade with Europe and specifically Ireland's trade with Canada? Will the ambassador comment on that before we finish?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

The United States will always be the dominant Canadian trading partner obviously because of history, geography and integration. However, our own Prime Minister, a good County Mayo man, as the Senator pointed out, has indicated that we would like to diversify our trading relationship and limit, to the small degree we can, some of the reliance on the US and to grow that with progressive trading partners such as the EU.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I want to agree with other colleagues in extending a warm welcome to H.E. Mr. King. It has been a feature of our relations over the 85 years that we have been exchanging diplomats that we get people from Canada coming here who are of a very high calibre. It is great to have a former politician and premier here on this occasion. It indicates how serious the Canadian Government is about the relationships between our two countries. A lot of the people who are at home looking in may be young people considering travelling to Canada or the parents of young people who are there already. Some 12% of Canada's population claim Irish ancestry and there are about 35,000 young people currently in Canada. It is the destination of choice for many young people because of the quality of life. One of my own children spent two years there working and studying and loved it, but it is not nirvana. The cost of living in Canada is high and the cost of housing in Canada is high. The opportunities are wonderful but would the ambassador agree that there are costs that are not wildly dissimilar to those in Ireland?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

First of all I would say that I am yet to meet somebody from Ireland who does not have a sister in Vancouver or a daughter in Toronto so it does really lay out the connections we have. Canada, like Ireland, has many wonderful attributes but also some challenges. We all struggle with the cost of living right now. The availability and affordability of housing is an issue back at home just like it is here. Getting ready access to healthcare continues to be a challenge at certain levels for Canadians, just like it is here. As the Deputy indicated, I was a former politician and, as premier of a small place like Prince Edward Island, I used to take time to point out that those are the good challenges to have. That means you are on the growth side of the ledger. They are significant challenges and undertakings, but they are the good challenges to have. They are the challenges of a growing and progressive country such as Ireland.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I think we are going to see young Irish people continuing to travel to Canada. They love the quality of life there and the opportunities that they get. For my part, I hear my daughter frequently refer to the friends for life she made during her two and a half years there.

I want to move on to the question of CETA. H.E. Mr. King has demonstrated very clearly the phenomenal improvement there has been in trade in the course of the provisional approval of CETA by Ireland and a number of other European countries. What is his picture of what would happen if we moved to full ratification? What would the benefits be for Ireland? Relatively small but powerful sections of the Irish public are trenchantly opposed to any further movement in terms of CETA.

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

That is a multi-layered question to answer, quite honestly. First and foremost, unlocking CETA for the fullness of what it was negotiated to be is a positive step. It is the next step in the progress of how we get there. We have to remember that, beginning when it was formally signed in 2016 and then implemented in 2017, this was a comprehensive, complicated agreement that was negotiated by the member states of the EU and by Canada, along with the ten provinces and three territories within Canada. It was not an easy road to get to where we were, but it does have the ability to unlock greater opportunities here. First and foremost, it would signal to the world that Ireland has long been a trustworthy, rules-based follower. Ireland backs up its words with its actions, just like we do in Canada. As we are trying to argue back at home, when we put our name down as a signatory of a trade deal, we honour the trade deal and we expect those on the other side to do the same.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

When we look at, say, the movement of Irish capital to the North American continent, to the USA, Irish companies are working in every one of the 50 US states, and there are 150 Irish companies in Canada. Obviously, it is relatively easy in the current climate for Irish companies to do business there.

What is the Canadian experience here? If Canadians want to come here to set up businesses, are there any issues that need to be tidied up and sorted out?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I do not think there is anything that is impossible to deal with. For many of the companies we deal with at the embassy through a trade perspective, one of the first questions they have if they do not do business here is how easy and reliable is it to do business here. We report back to them that it is quite easy and there are opportunities. As Canadian companies look toward the EU, with Ireland being the springboard into the EU, we are looking at our job from the embassy as Canada's envoy here to not just spring into Europe, but to stop here in Europe. Maybe the easiest way to get to mainland Europe is to partner with existing companies that are here, to pool our efforts, so to speak, and then seek greater opportunities that we can all share together.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Finally, just on the issue of peace, security and so on, we are enormously grateful in this country to Canada for the work of General John de Chastelain and we have recognised the establishment of the scholarship in his memory. To come forward to the current situation, we are challenged on a host of fronts, including our own defence, security, cybersecurity and so on. Canada is far more developed in this regard. Does the ambassador see opportunities to build far greater levels of co-operation between Canada and Ireland in the areas of security in all its manifestations?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

To answer that question and some of the comments the Deputy made leading up to the question, perhaps we might be a little bit more advanced than Ireland in some of those areas, but maybe when we compare ourselves with others, we are not. When we look at Canada and the Arctic perspective, for example, with all of the rare earth materials that are in the Arctic and with climate change making those more accessible, we are concerned about our own security. Canada is making significant investments in its security and defence. Ireland has its neutrality. Canada is very well known around the world as a peacekeeping and peace-loving nation. We are not warmongers in any way. At the same time, however, we realise the responsibility that we have to make sure that we have security and defence of our citizens and our jurisdiction, for example. This is why, with the recent budget by Prime Minister Carney, which was just approved yesterday in Ottawa by Parliament, there is a significant increase in spending on security and defence. Much of that will be around investments in the Canadian Arctic, for example.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is good to meet the ambassador and Mr. O'Toole again. As has been touched on, the connections between Ireland and Canada go back centuries and even at an official level, a century, effectively. These connections continue to develop with the considerable flow of migration back and forth between Ireland and Canada. It is very important that we have good relations. It is very positive that there has been such a significant increase in Irish-Canadian trade. I will not pose a question on this because I think we both have a position and we both understand each other. I hardly expect to convince a representative of the Canadian Government that the arbitration legislation is something that we disagree with. That is just the simple fact of it. We welcome very much the increase in trade but that to me demonstrates that I would be concerned the arbitration courts will have implications for workers' rights and the environment and will put the needs of corporations and the powerful ahead of ordinary workers. I do not expect the ambassador to agree with this but that is my position. The arrangements that have been made and the obstacles that have been moved are more than adequate and I think can continue. There certainly is scope to continue to build Irish- Canadian trade but I do not think the amendments to the arbitration legislation as proposed by the Government are needed and in any event are likely to face potential constitutional issues here.

The questions I want to raise are more on the international affairs side of things. Currently the situation in western Darfur is that tens of thousands of people are unaccounted for. Tens of thousands of people have been killed in the city of El Fasher, in a war between the forces of the Government and the RSF and the Janjaweed. The arms continue to flow in to Sudan and to the RSF, primarily it is believed, through the United Arab Emirates. Canada has a very close relationship with the United Arab Emirates. I understand that Prime Minister Carney was in the Emirates in the last two or three days. Did the Prime Minister raise with the Emirati Government his concerns in relation to what is happening in Sudan? Did he attempt to apply any pressure to stop the flow of weapons to what is, I would say, the largest humanitarian situation on the planet?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I thank the Deputy. I would say quite honestly that I would agree that perhaps we are not here to change each other's minds but I want him to know that I am very respectful of his position and the thoughts that go into that. I am very grateful that we live in places like Canada and Ireland where we are able to freely talk about things and disagree maybe and to do so respectfully. I appreciate that. In response to the question, I have not received a full debrief on the Prime Minister's trip to the UAE, so I would not be able to sit here and tell the Deputy what was discussed. I will undertake to bring that information and share it with him once I receive it. Canada is trying to assert what I continue to call the goodness of Canada. We are trying to bring peace and stability to a world that could really use it. I think that is the Irish belief as well. The world needs more Ireland and Canada. I believe that our Prime Minister is motivated in the same way. We want to have economic stability at home but we also want to have world stability. I think that continues to be his motivation. However, regarding the actual comments that might have been made in the meeting I am not able to talk about that at this point, but would be open to sharing with the Deputy later on.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Okay. Maybe I can come at the same issue in a slightly different way. It is the case that Canada trades in weapons with the United Arab Emirates. There are close connections there. Some of these weapons have ended up in Darfur. This has been reported by The Globe and Mail in Canada, so there is a trade there. I appreciate that perhaps the ambassador has not had the detail of what occurred in that meeting, so I accept that. However, I can reasonably ask whether the Canadian Government has concerns about the relationship between the Emirates and the RSF. Is it the position of the Canadian Government that it could do more to try to exert pressure to bring about an end to this extremely bloody conflict?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

If I come across as sounding evasive, I am not trying to do so intentionally. It is the general principle of our position in Canada that we try to do everything we can to create stability in the world and as a peacekeeping, peace-loving nation, we try to utilise the assets we have to the best we can to get to that state. Again, to be able to sit here today and to dictate the Canadian policy on Darfur, for example, is something that I probably need to go back and get a deeper debrief on, to be honest, to share it with the Deputy. I would be open to having a fuller conversation on this once I am able to do so, but I certainly respect his questions and the place they come from.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I would appreciate that if it is possible. This is not anything I am not asking of the Irish Government either. I ask that it be communicated to the Canadian Government that concern exists in Ireland in relation to the situation there. Whatever influence can be brought to bear should be. I think we are about to have a vote. I have a final observation about the relationship between Canada and the North of Ireland. How does the ambassador see his role in this regard? I appreciate there is co-operation with the ambassador to Britain. There is considerable migration from the North to Canada and considerable relations there. Is there scope for co-operation between the two embassies to further Canadian relations with the devolved institutions in the North?

I would say that on the broad level we have a good working relationship with our UK embassy in London. For example, our defence attaché for Ireland is in the office in the UK. We do have a lot of cross-pollination, for want of a better word. There are some delicate conversations. I would not go to Belfast officially without getting official designation or permission from the UK to do so. We are aware of the history, the political nature of the shared island initiative and the views on uniting Ireland. To that extent, we try to collaborate as best we can with the UK but we have to be mindful.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

A vote has been called in the Dáil, so a number of TDs have to leave but they will be back. We have a few Senators here, so I propose that we continue the meeting. I call Senator Stephenson.

Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I have personal ties to Canada as my partner is Canadian and I have spent a lot of time in Ottawa and have family there. Mr. King had a previous position in indigenous relations, and there is a more tragic link that Ireland has with Canada in terms of the residential schools in Canada and our industrial schools in Ireland. It would be interesting to hear what lessons Mr. King thinks there might be from the truth and reconciliation process in Canada that we could learn from when it comes to our history with industrial schools.

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I thank Senator Stephenson for the question. In my previous life, before I got involved in politics, I worked with the Mi'kmaq Confederacy on Prince Edward Island, which was the provincial territorial organisation for the First Nations in my province. I was employed with it at the time when the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada was struck, and those meetings were taking place across the country, including Prince Edward Island. I had the chance to sit in, participate and listen to the heart-wrenching, heartbreaking and horrible stories of what the residential school system did in Prince Edward Island. If there are lessons, and there are always have to be, my perspective is that our history is what it is and we have to tell it. We cannot sugar-coat it, hide from it or run from it. We have to look at it and embrace it. That is the only way we can learn from it.

As hard as those stories are to hear, they are a million times harder to tell, and we have to be respectful and understanding of those positions. If we are really serious about learning from our history and making a better future, we have to validate those stories and the courage of the people who share them, and put into action items to make life better. The truth and reconciliation report has a number of outcomes. Some have been delivered and some have not. It continues to be a work in progress. In the simplest terms, we have to look at the history in its fullest. We have to be not afraid to hear what the stories are but actions need to back up the words.

Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I know there is a Bill - I think it is C-413. It is legislation on potentially criminalising the denial or minimisation of the harm. Is that going through the Parliament?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I am not sure where it is in the Parliament. There are many Bills introduced to Parliament at various levels. I do not know whether I have enough history to speak about it right now. It would seem that perhaps there is something there. I do not know where it is at this point.

Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We have spoken a little bit already about CETA and the impacts and benefits it has brought. Some 99% of the agreement has been implemented since 2017. Obviously, the trade relationship is very welcome. I want to pick up a little bit on the question of the investor court system. Canada has had some high-profile cases, such as the Lone Pine Resources case, which was particularly emblematic. Loan Pine Resources brought claim after Quebec revoked exploration licences under environmental legislation. Mr. King might not know about that specific case but, more broadly, what has been the impact of the investor court system on the arbitration system in Canada? How costly has it been, whether at federal level or state level, for governments?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

This is one question where Mr. O'Toole can give greater insight.

Mr. Christopher O'Toole:

Regarding the investor court system, we are specifically speaking about the NAFTA group. It provides a process for investors to bring forward cases against the government around claims there has been some unjustified discrimination against them through actions of the government. If we take a look back at the files, only 24 NAFTA Chapter 11 cases have been completed. Of these, 14 were dismissed or won by the government, while another five have been withdrawn or settled. There have been only five cases were there have been judgments against the government.

Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Have any of these cases included an instance where non-Canadian legal standards have been applied to benefit the company in question?

Mr. Christopher O'Toole:

I am not an investment law specialist. I am sorry; I cannot speak on that.

Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The reason I am asking is that this is a concern some of us have about the investor court. When it comes to the question of the full ratification of CETA, this is concerning for a lot of us when it comes to the ability of companies to sue the Government.

Mr. Christopher O'Toole:

In CETA itself, there are provisions which specifically state that these shell companies - I believe the term used is "letterbox" companies, if I am not mistaken - are not allowed to benefit from the provisions in the agreement. That is part of the text of the agreement, if that is what Senator Stephenson is referring to.

Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

No, I am just referring to companies that can sue governments, full stop. They do not need to be shell companies, as happened in the case where Lone Pine Resources sued the Quebec federal state. I am also interested to know whether the Canadian Government would support more domestic court oversight as it pertains to the arbitration courts, or maybe carve-outs within it through public interest regulation. Is that something the Canadian Government would support?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

CETA does encourage the use of domestic courts, for example, by suspending the timelines for the submission of a claim in the investor court. There is nothing in the CETA that would remove from the jurisdiction its ability to enact laws or regulations. There are some provisions in the CETA document itself. If CETA is eventually ratified, which we hope it will be by all member states, there will be the ability to come back and make some alterations and changes to deal with some of these issues that may be more relevant now than they were back in 2017.

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I, too, have had a long interest in Canada. I have had the honour of participating in summer schools focused on the history and connection between Ireland and Canada. However, in the circumstances I need to focus on CETA. It is important to state for the record that it was a bad decision and remiss of the committee to waive the opportunity for pre-legislative oversight and proper scrutiny of the arbitration Bill, which we know has been brought forward by the Government with the aim of facilitating the ratification of CETA and its investor protection components. These were found by Ireland's Supreme Court to be problematic in terms of our sovereignty and autonomy and our ability to make laws effectively. In that context, I want to come back a little bit on the protections that are there. There really are not any protections when we look at the text of CETA, and it is something I have scrutinised in great detail. To be clear, first of all, is it the case that Canadian companies have felt they have not been able to access the rule of law in the Irish courts? Are there examples where Canadian companies have felt they have been denied the proper rule of law in Irish courts?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I thank Senator Higgins for her question. I am not sure of this. As I said, CETA does push to the domestic court system so the ability is there to facilitate this.

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

CETA allows for the enforcement of the rules as well - it is not as well, we should perhaps clarify - between Canada and Europe. This is for private corporations and private companies to take cases against countries. In that context, it is clear in CETA that they can choose where they want to take that case. Is it not the case they can choose to take those cases under the ISDS, including under the current US courts such as the World Bank court and ISDS investor-state mechanisms? In many cases where companies do that, they do that because the rulings and potential moneys involved are massive. They deal with future, unearned profit that arises as a result of a decision that has affected them in a way the company argues is unfair. Is it not the case that is something open to companies under these court mechanisms?

Mr. Christopher O'Toole:

I thank the Senator and she is right. CETA allows for a choice of either-----

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Only by the company, not by the country.

Mr. Christopher O'Toole:

Within in the context of the investor court system or within the domestic courts. As I mentioned early, I am not actually an investment lawyer, so I am not as much as an expert as I probably should be, but I spent the weekend listening to the hearing from 2021. I read through the report again today. My predecessor, Mr. Reuben East, explained it very well but I will recap. In terms of the safeguards, from Canada's perspective, we believe there are safeguards built into CETA.

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

My time is very tight, so could Mr. O'Toole be very concise on this?

Mr. Christopher O'Toole:

Sure.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Mr. O'Toole can continue but if the Senator wants to ask another question between answers, she can.

Mr. Christopher O'Toole:

Very quickly, CETA clarifies that governments may change their laws. CETA includes clearly defined investment protection standards. It requires a real economic link between the economies of the European Union in order for a firm to be able to actually come forward to it. The provisions allow the parties to issue binding notes of interpretation on the panels themselves. This is actually a new system that Mr. East explained very well in the last time he spoke before this committee. The panel members themselves for the hearing are selected by the parties to CETA, not in an ad hoc fashion as in the old system. There is also an appeal mechanism included in CETA that allows parties to seek the correction of errors and ensure the consistency of decisions of the tribunal in the first instance-----

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is a very detailed document. I have read it in detail and that is available to people. Is it not the case that they can choose to do so under the investment courts? We can look to how ISDS has been used by Canadian companies. The Corrib gas field was mentioned in the opening statement and we know Vermilion was an actor there. Vermilion took a case. This relates directly to the ambassador's statement where he talked about how we must argue the democratic case for climate action. We know that France was sued by Vermilion for taking climate action in relation to the energy transition and trying to end some of its fossil fuel dependence and that it watered down its climate laws in response to a billion dollar case that was taken by a Canadian company against it. This is the context.

When we talk about predictability, it is predictability and security for the public in terms of their ability to legislate. I know Article 8.9 allows for and says you can legislate, but Article 8.10 says you can sue if you have had unfair treatment. Unfair treatment is the basis that has been used in all of these billion dollar cases. I will not be able to list them, there are so many.

There are two things I would like to confirm. The ambassador can answer them in this order because my time is tight. The increase of 37% in future trade that is talked about - I hope it all happens - is not related to ICS. The report lists things like chemical products, animals, cereals, essential oils and machinery. Is it not the case that all of these can be exported from Ireland to Canada under provisional application and do not require ICS for that increase in exports to happen? Is it not also the case that Canadian environmental policies have been targeted, at local and regional level, by companies that have sued? Similarly, Canadian companies have particularly taken action in relation to mining and extraction laws that other countries tried to bring in. Does that not have an impact? We are focusing on the environment because it is central, but we know that there are many Canadian companies in the residential and commercial property sector in Ireland. There are many Canadian companies in the home care sector. These are sectors where we anticipate there may be future regulation needed. Is it not the case that there is a risk being created in terms of the potential costs that may come on the Irish State if it chooses to regulate these areas?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

There are many questions and observations rolled into that short time and I thank the Senator for them. I do not know if I necessarily agree with everything she put forward. On the whole, Canada is one of the world leaders when it comes to climate action and environmental policy, but wrapped within that are some realities of challenge. That is not stating something that nobody knows. At the same time, I believe Canada is a very reliable partner made up of very reliable businesses.

The ability to take action does not necessarily mean you will get action. These are neutral, arbitrary bodies that get to help make a decision. I would not presuppose that just because one company thinks something is wrong means it will be ruled towards in a positive way. These international trade agreements need to have dispute mechanisms, but as CETA has carefully tried to craft, it allows every jurisdiction the ability to make laws, regulations and policy. For companies that come to do business here, they are obligated to follow those regulations.

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Just to be clear because it is very important, this is not about trust in Canada or trust in Ireland. I imagine Canada and Ireland really and clearly should have trust in each other. We are already trading and the ambassador has indicated there have been no issues in terms of the rule of law. The question is about adding something that is not about either country but companies operating within those countries and their capacity to take the states to court. This is not about Canada. This is about Canadian companies.

I asked about the report on the 37% increase in future trade that may happen. The EU's own research has indicated that investor court systems add negligible benefits. There is no evidence of an increase in trading benefit, or none to negligible increase in trading benefit, by adding this extra layer where corporations can take cases. Is it not the case the 37% is in areas that are already open to trade under provisional application? That is really about relationship building.

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I would counter that by saying, as I said in my opening statement and in answer to one of the Senator's colleague's questions, that this was an agreement that was negotiated by all of the member states of the EU, including Ireland. Canada negotiated this on behalf of ten provinces and three territories. This is the agreement that all of us negotiated and came to. Canada has been continuously saying to the member states that have not ratified CETA that since we are following it and have signed on, we expect our counterparts who negotiated this to do the same. We are not trying to-----

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This is very factually important. Is is not the case that since the Singapore ruling, we know that the European Commission negotiated the agreement and the courts have told us that the European Commission is authorised to negotiate the trade bit but the investment bit, which relates to national laws and their application, is actually a decision that sits with countries to make nationally? It is not really a single package. It is two bits. That is why part of it is happening already and part of it is waiting to be decided on at national level. I say this in the context of our Supreme Court expressing concern on some of the aspects. I do not think it is fair to say that we signed up this already. In fact, it is very clear that the decision to sign up to this component sits at a national level across the EU.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Senator. We will have a second round as well, so there will be another opportunity to contribute. Would the ambassador like to answer?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

It is my understanding that the Supreme Court was asked to intervene and then offered the solution of how we go through CETA, which is where I think the arbitration Bill has come from.

The next steps will now be discussed at the legislative branch. Maybe I do not understand the delicacies of life here but I do not think the Supreme Court weighed in on its own. I think it was asked to intervene and it came back and said this is how we can continue forwards, by implementing changes to the arbitration legislation.

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I think it identified problems and said these are ways in which they might or may be addressed. There are huge questions about whether that addresses them but the wider question is important, which is that this is a separate decision to the decision on the trade bit, which everyone supports and which we hope will increase significantly, as planned for, but which is currently under provisional application and which sits within the European Commission's authority. This is a different bit.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The ambassador and Mr. O'Toole are very welcome. They said everyone in Ireland, since they came here in April, has said they have a sister, brother, cousin or something, so I will continue that trend. My in-laws are in Edmonton in Canada. My wife works for a Canadian renewable energy company, Ørsted, in Cork. We had our honeymoon in Canada, in Vancouver, Banff and Jasper. Like everyone else here and pretty much around the country, we have a fondness, real connection and relationship with the people of Canada. So many people in Ireland have had the opportunity and experience of working there. All those direct flights which the witnesses are talking about have enhanced that even further and will continue.

I will ask a question on a topic which has not been discussed yet, which is Ukraine. I ask because I visited Ukraine on behalf of this committee on 24 August for Ukraine's Independence Day. The Canadian Prime Minister was there in support of the Ukrainian people and spoke very well. As the ambassador is aware, President Zelenskyy is visiting Ireland on 2 and 3 December, and hopefully visiting this Oireachtas and speaking. That has not been confirmed yet but hopefully that will be an opportunity. Could H.E. Mr. King outline Canada's position and what it has done in the last number of years to support Ukrainian people who might be in Canada, and financial support, whether military or non-military support? What is Canada's perception or view since the Prime Minister spoke with President Zelenskyy two months ago on creating peace in that country?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach for that question. Canada has been among the first and staunchest allies of Ukraine since the Russian invasion, along with being one of the top donors of assistance. Since 2022, Canada has committed almost $22 billion in whole-of-government, multi-faceted support. There has been approximately $702 million for recovery and construction to address the emerging needs of Ukraine in the face of Russia's illegal and unjustifiable invasion. Canada continues to stand shoulder to shoulder. We joined the world in taking action with sanctions. We are providing almost $400 million in humanitarian assistance for Ukraine and neighbouring countries. We continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with people. We have welcomed thousands of displaced Ukrainian families into Canada. There is a huge Ukrainian diaspora in Canada and has been for many generations. I think most Canadians feel that these are our brothers and sisters and we stand shoulder to shoulder with them and will continue to do so. Our Prime Minister has been one of the leading voices around the globe when it comes to the defence of Ukraine.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

To get peace in Ukraine, we need influential, big countries to be supportive. We have an issue with Canada's nearest neighbours in America where that support is questionable at times. Has the Prime Minister spoken to President Trump? I know that relationship is challenging at times too. Has he tried to put pressure, as many European countries have, to open the doors to peace?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

Prime Minister Carney has talked to the US President many times. I think they are developing a useful, workable relationship and partnership. I know the Prime Minister has made many public and private statements to the President about the importance of the USA's support for Ukraine, what it means to the European Continent and the world in general. Canada will continue to stand strong. Canada, for generations, has used soft diplomacy, has been a peace builder, and will continue to do so. Canada's actions have backed up our words, in not just the amount of money but the support that we have thrown in with the Ukrainian people because it is one of our great ways to show how much we genuinely care about our friends in the EU.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am sure the ambassador is aware that in this committee, over the summer months, we conducted pre-legislative scrutiny of the occupied territories Bill. We are waiting for a proposal to be put forward by the new Minister for foreign affairs, who has been in her post since lunchtime. We have heard a lot about the challenges it might bring economically to America. What is Canada's perspective on the proposal that might be put forward by the Minister for foreign affairs? What is Canada's perception on the discussions in this committee and the report that this committee produced after pre-legislative scrutiny?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

To take the first part of the question, I have found that politics move quickly in this country and there is never a dull moment. I understand there is a change in the Department of foreign affairs.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Yes. That was the vote.

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

That will be taking place very soon. On my country's position on the occupied territories Bill, I would have to humbly thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach for the question but kindly refrain from commenting on the Irish Government's sovereign foreign policy. I will just watch, like other Canadians will, to determine the Irish path forward.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

As ambassador, Mr. King surely would have an understanding of whether businesses or companies that are considering investing in Ireland would be sceptical, as is suggested by American companies. Rather than giving a personal view, has he heard or has he oversight of whether companies from Canada are cautious, depending on what we do?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

Not to be overly evasive, in my conversations, this comes to me more from my American counterparts or American businesses, not so much from Canadians. It is best for me to reiterate that I thank the Chair for the question but I think I need to refrain from commenting on the foreign policy of the Irish Government at this point on that particular issue.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

But would it be safe to say, from conversations the ambassador had with American companies, it would not be unlike what is being reported in terms of cautiousness?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I want to be very mindful of the sovereignty of the Irish Government. Like the Leas-Chathaoirleach, it is something that some of our American counterparts have raised as an issue and concern. That would be the simplest and safest way that I would put it.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the ambassador.

Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I welcome the ambassador and Mr. Christopher O'Toole. There must be some Irishness with a name like O'Toole. The ambassador has only been in the job for a short time. I compliment him on the efforts he is making to see all of Ireland, not Dublin, Galway and Killarney like an awful lot of people do. I have seen him with my Government colleague in Carnew. I saw him in the beautiful Vale of Avoca in Woodenbridge, on Sunday. That is important, including to local people there too. It means a lot. It means that the ambassador is in touch with what is going on, so I highly commend him on that.

The figures about the success of CETA are mind-blowing, of how and where it is and where it may be going. I feel that both Ireland and Canada, with all due respect, might have put all of their eggs in one basket and now they are seeing that there is plenty of business and plenty of other countries out there. We are looking at populations in India and China of 1.6 and 1.8 billion people.

A lot of people were focused on America. America is very important to all of us. I am fascinated by how Canadian companies and Canada are handling the tariff issue and how that is it hitting at grassroots level and ordinary people? With my business background, I am also fascinated by how one can run a business in Canada at the moment, given the uncertainty of the geopolitical situation. I watch with huge interest. There was an advert before a game and I felt Canada was poking the bear. The bear reacted straight away by putting another 10% tariff on.

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

Ireland is such a wonderful, beautiful country. It is wonderful for me to get out to meet so many people. I feel very much at home here. In terms of what it is like to be a Canadian doing business right now, probably it is our deep Irish roots and heritage but Canadians and Canadian businesses are tremendously resilient. We are not ones to sit around and feel sorry for ourselves. The trading relationship with the US is critically important. It has been integrated across the border for generations, and will continue to be. Like any partnership, friendship or family relation, there are challenges that arise from time to time. We continue to be successful. We still have the Canada-US-Mexico free trade agreement, which exempts most products from being tariffed across the border. It is, therefore, kind of business as usual for Canada, as much it can be in this new, changing geopolitical and trading world.

Our Prime Minister is leading by example when he says we will continue to trade and be a close trading partner with the US but we would like to diminish a little bit our reliance on the US and find and grow new markets. We want to do so with like-minded trading partners. We have a lot in common with Ireland and the EU. We are rules based and we have a long, deep history here. We are choosing to grow the relationship we have, not just because we need a trading partner and there are many millions of people in Europe but also because we want to trade with people who understand us, appreciate us and share the same values. As I said before, the world right now in its form needs more Ireland and more Canada and we need to work together on that.

Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I note the comment "trusted partners". That is a key part. I read there are 400 Irish companies in Canada employing 6,000 people and there are also 75 major Canadian companies in Ireland employing almost 15,000 people. Where does Mr. King see CETA going? Where is the next step for us with Canada? How can we continue this improvement? If you stay still, you go backwards.

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

That is part of the reason we are here and why we continue to have, as one of the top issues in the embassy, working towards the ratification of CETA to unlock its full potential and move on to the next steps and the fullness of what the arrangement can be. That is number one. Number two is just realising the world is changing rapidly and the importance of doing business with trusted partners and like-minded thinkers. That is important to people like our Prime Minister but also to people who live in Sault Sainte-Marie, Jasper or Georgetown, Prince Edward Island. It matters to them a great deal. It is critical that we grow on that. Perhaps Mr. O'Toole can add more.

Mr. Christopher O'Toole:

I thank the Deputy. It is a good question around what is next. The first step is to get CETA ratified. We need all 27 member states to ratify the agreement. Each has its own domestic processes to go through, which we respect. It is important, first off, for Ireland to ratify it because it sends a signal to the other nine that we are moving forward and Ireland wants this to move forward in getting through the ratification process. Once we finish that, it opens the door to improving CETA and digging deeper into some of the areas negotiated ten or 15 years ago. Europe and Canada have both changed our approaches. There are different aspects of free trade agreements, for example, sustainable development, trade and environment, trade and labour, where both Europe and Canada now seek to have dispute settlement applied to those provisions.

Even more important, one of the tasks of the Prime Minister's personal representative to the European Union, John Hannaford, who was nominated recently, is to implement the action plan agreed at the summit in June between Prime Minister Carney and Presidents Costa and von der Leyen. It is also his task to explore and work with the European Union and member states to decide what next, what we can do more and how do we deepen that relationship. There is a range between the CETA itself and full EU membership. I am not suggesting that is what Canada is looking for in this respect. Within that spectrum, there are a number of areas where we might be able to explore further strengthening links between Canada, the EU and Ireland itself.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The next speaker on the list is Deputy Shay Brennan but substituting for him is Deputy Malcolm Byrne. He has seven minutes.

Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Chair for inviting me even though I am not a member of this committee. I have, as the ambassador will know, quite a strong affinity with Canada. He is very welcome to Leinster House again, as is the team here within the embassy. The ambassador very kindly came down to south Wicklow and north Wexford recently where there are very strong connections, historical in particular, between our region and Canada. We want to grow those connections through economic and educational links. The De Chastelain scholarships, which developed through the Ireland Canada University Foundation, are welcome. I was fortunate enough to previously have one of the ICUF scholarships. I think we talked before about extending that beyond third level to look at second level schools and youth organisations. In the context of a possible prime ministerial visit, that is something I encourage the ambassador to develop.

Trade has been, throughout history, the greatest way in which we have improved all our economies, provided employment, lifted people out of poverty and encouraged greater understanding. A challenge globally at the moment is that the concept of free and fair trade is under attack. That is why CETA is particularly important. As was said, the values we share in terms of human rights, rule of law and democracy also include a commitment to free and fair trade. It is important for our countries to talk up trade and why it really matters.

Another substantive point is Canada and Ukraine. Canada has been resolute in its support of Ukraine. I welcome the recent decision by Canada to take further action against the Russian shadow fleet travelling through Canadian waters. It is a challenge for us. Will the ambassador talk about how we can co-operate in addressing that problem?

From a climate and environmental point of view, Canada has a very strong interest in the Arctic. For our own territorial waters, the climate generally, our protection of the Arctic and what happens, how can Ireland and Canada co-operate in that space?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I thank the Deputy for those questions. I got my eyes opened in Carnew to the long-standing historical connection between Canada and Ireland. I hope we can work together during my time here to take that to second level. Having our students come across the Atlantic, in both directions, to learn about the opportunities here and back home is something we should and we must do. I hope we can work together on that.

I touched on Arctic security a little in one of my earlier answers. With the climate changing the way it is, a lot of the rare earth minerals and key materials in our Canadian north are now more easily accessible and will continue to be more accessible as the climate changes.

That poses a significant security threat for Canada. When you look just above the Arctic Circle, you see that our neighbour is Russia. We have open and free waters through the Northwest Passage, for example, and there have been reports in the past of Chinese ships being up in the north. Canada's decision to fortify to the extent it can and to take greater security of our sovereignty in the north is where a big bulk of our spending can be. Where I see Ireland benefiting or at least being a part of that is that Canada is a peace-loving nation. We do not have neutrality like Ireland does but we understand, like Ireland does, the responsibility of security not just to Canada but to the continent of North America, for example. That is what we have to make the investments for. The lesson in that for a place like Ireland is that it needs to focus, as it has and will continue to do, on its security and defence not from a position of strength but from a position of responsibility and defence to Europe as well. There are some lessons we can learn from one another there. The navy in Canada, for example, patrols essentially the same waters as the navy in Ireland so I continue to believe there are many opportunities for us to work together on our coastal protections and coastal security. I hope during my time here we can explore some of these. I would love to hear from any Irish companies or the Irish Defence Forces that want to meet our colleagues in Canada. We are happy to do so.

Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We might talk about the importance of trade. By the way, if Canada decides to apply to join the European Union we will be strongly supportive. The values and importance of trade - not just CETA but free and fair trade globally - are something we share.

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I agree. Since the provisional implementation of CETA the numbers really speak for themselves. Trade has essentially doubled. Foreign investment in both countries continues to grow. You can measure it, as I said, in the macro but also in the micro. I had a meeting chaired by the Deputy with the Irish Farmers Association and I certainly understand how important agriculture is. I come from a place where agriculture is the driving economic force and if you do not have good sustainable agriculture you do not have a good economy. We share these fundamentals. If we can continue to work together, we can grow this and do so in a sustainable way where trusted partners and friends stick together, look after one another and promote that throughout the world.

Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Vice-Chair.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I welcome Mr. King and Mr. O'Toole to our meeting. I would like to talk to them about tourism and how tourism in Ireland is promoted in Canada. I would like to know what companies there are over there, and whether there is promotion from Fáilte Ireland, Tourism Ireland and also Tourism NI. I would like to see Ireland marketed on an all-island basis and I am wondering whether that is happening.

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

Fáilte Ireland is there and Tourism NI is as well. In this new and changing world we are in, Canadians are looking for different locations to visit and to share and spend their tourism dollars in. If members have been following any of the news from back in Canada, cross-border tourism to the US is down, in some cases by 30% or 40%. I read a story from back home this morning about how Canadian seniors who go south for the winter - snowbirds, as we call them - are decreasing that activity by 30% or 40%. All those individuals still want to go somewhere. We love Canada and it is a wonderful place, but the winter can be a little bit more rugged than it is here. I think of the historical connections we have and the continuation of the accessible flights going back and forth on a consistent basis. I would again say they do not all have to land in Dublin. They can land in Shannon, Cork and Belfast and access the island as we should. Like all tourism locations, we do a very good job in Canada. I think a very good job is done in Ireland but we can always do better. As I said, anecdotally since I came here I have seen more Canadians in seven months than I would have in Halifax. It is incredible the number of people who are coming here and who feel very much at home here.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is tourism being promoted on an all-Ireland basis in Canada or is it being promoted as the Twenty-Six Counties and the Six Counties?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I do not know if I am the best person to answer that. I tell everybody that the postcards we see back home are usually from the west of Ireland. They are not of Dublin or those types of things. I would not be able to positively say people are promoting Ireland as a nation. I get a lot of questions from Canadians who come here and ask if they are allowed go to the North, if there is a wall and if they need a passport. There are other opportunities for advertising and sharing of information to make people take a voyage here. There are amazing tourist destinations in Ireland and they are all over, so we could do a better job.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank Mr. King for his honesty but I would love him to be able to encourage tourists who are coming to Ireland that Ireland is North and South and it is a 32-county island with tourism everywhere on the island.

I will also ask about the diaspora. As Mr. King said there is a big Irish diaspora in Canada. There is an agreement on driving licences between Canada and Ireland that when you have a Canadian driving licence you can transfer it when you come back to Ireland. However, it takes quite a long time. Some people are saying to me it has been up to three months. I am wondering why that cannot happen faster or why it is such a slow process. Should it not be automatic? Is there an agreement there between Ireland and Canada that this would happen more speedily?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

There are a couple of things I would say to that. Number one, my roots are in County Leitrim and in Coleraine, and more importantly the parish of Ballyrashane, so I want to get up to the North and explore my heritage.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Good man. You will be more than welcome.

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

Yes. The country-to-country application of that is one thing but the department of motor vehicles is something that each province administers on their own, so perhaps the delay is just that one jurisdiction might do this better than the other. It might not be as clean-cut as deciding we are doing this and checking a box. As the Deputy knows, being a Member of Parliament, the bureaucracy can sometimes be challenging to work through but that might be one of the direct challenges to making it instantaneous. It is a provincial regulation that is monitored by each individual part of Canada.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Would the Canadian Government consider that it could be made to be an easier process so everybody coming with licences from Canada could automatically get them transferred here?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

We were just talking about this. I am a former provincial premier so I know one of the constant challenges in the federal-provincial relationship is telling the federal government to stay out of the provincial jurisdiction. I want to say, as Canada's diplomatic representative, there is an easy way to do this but I am also guarded because I know provincial territorial jurisdiction is a constant challenge back home and the federal government would want to do the very best it could, but it is not as clean-cut as we may want it to be.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There are a lot of things that hinder people when they come. Driving licences are one of the things that have been brought to my attention. Another is education and whether people's education is transferring over when they move home from Canada, or whether their work experience is. There are lots of issues we could be working on with the Canadian Government to ensure the transition back home is that wee bit easier. Canada has had the Irish diaspora there for a while but if they come it would be good if there was an easy transition back to living in Ireland.

I thank Mr. King again for his work and for collaborating on lots of different issues.

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I thank the Deputy. In answer to that, in this changing world that is something we need to continue to knock barriers down on. As a former premier I used to come here because there are hundreds of Canadian kids who are over here studying medicine. We worked hard to get the recognition of credentials back home to make it easier, but getting Canadian kids back home with their medical degree is much more challenging.

One they get here, you get their hooks into them, they like the life, they marry somebody and it is hard to get them out of Ireland. The credential process of getting them back home is also terribly cumbersome. On both sides of the Atlantic, we can do a better job on that.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I would appreciate Mr. King's support on that.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The ambassador and Mr. O'Toole are welcome. Listening to my colleague talking about their frequent trips around the country, I extend a formal invitation to come to the Curragh of Kildare, where they will be met with great hospitality. If we can fit in a day's racing as well, we will certainly try to do that. I really appreciate the opportunity to have this discussion. Trade is the big issue. While FDI in Ireland from Canadian companies has gone up, is there any more room for growth? What can we do to develop that further?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I have driven through the Curragh in Kildare and I am fascinated by its history. I am a racing fan back at home. We race the sulkies, which we call standard bred racing, but I have been to the Galway Races and would certainly love to get to the Curragh. It looks like a beautiful facility as I drive by it. I will take the Senator up on her invitation.

I believe that there is lots more for Canadian companies to do here in terms of opportunities for investment in Ireland. I do not know if the Senator was here but I said that, as Canada looks towards the EU and growing its trade, everyone refers to Ireland as being the springboard into the EU. What we are trying to do in our embassy, through our trade relationship, is to get the Canadian companies not to spring from Ireland into Europe but to stop here, look around and try to access Europe through developing partnerships with existing industries and companies that are here. In my short time here, that seems to be very appealing to Canadian companies as well. It is a huge market in Europe of 400 million people, and to try to penetrate that market for a small company in Kitchener, Ontario, can be daunting. If it is possible to do that in partnership with an existing company that does business in the EU from Ireland, that seems to be what we could refer to as low-hanging fruit. The report of the Conference Board of Canada lays out 13 key sectors in which there is more opportunity for Canada to develop here, and also many opportunities for Irish companies in Canada as well.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is music to our ears. The opportunity for Irish companies in Canada is every bit as important also. How can Canada and Ireland collaborate on multilateral issues outside of trade, such as climate change, peacekeeping and human rights?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

Those are key areas, among others, in which we share a vision, a passion and a history. The world is changing around us and multinationalism is becoming more strained than it was in years past. To our country, that makes it more important than ever to work closely with like-minded countries that are similar to Canada and Ireland. That is one of the reasons we are here talking about the ratification of CETA. From a Canadian perspective, that is the next step in growing the relationship. It is an agreement that we worked on together and that we want to take to the next step. We have unlocked a lot of potential and think we can unlock a lot more. In terms of being a world leader in these areas, I have said a couple of times that the world needs more Canada and the world needs more Ireland. Ireland was one of the first countries, if not the first, to recognise the State of Palestine. Canada did that this year as well. We have a lot of philosophies and principles that we share. We need to lean into them together and work towards sharing them with the rest of the world.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I agree. We look forward to building those relationships in those areas. Cyber security is something we are all very concerned about for different reasons, because of the geopolitical situation the world finds itself in and also in respect of disinformation. Are there any lessons that Ireland can learn from Canada's approach to the areas of cyber security and countering disinformation?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I would try to answer that in a couple of different ways. When Canadian companies talk about security and defence and what the opportunities could be for a Canadian company in Ireland, I think they are largely around some of the softer security areas such as information technology, cyber security and coastal protection. From a Canadian perspective, we have been very proactive in protecting our elections from a cyber security perspective, for example. It is a very real and significant issue that we have been facing for a number of years now. We have really heightened our efforts in doing the best we can to protect ourselves so we can have fair, secure and safe elections from a cyber security perspective. We live in this world where all of our information is there and we have to find a way to protect it. As Ireland assumes the Presidency of the EU on 1 July, based on past precedent, many of these areas will come into focus pretty quickly. I know that in the transition to and preparation for the EU Presidency, Ireland is working on strengthening a number of those areas. There are Canadian companies and there is a Canadian experience that could be helpful in that.

Mr. Christopher O'Toole:

If I could draw the Senator's attention to one of the action items from the summit statement in June between the Prime Minister and Presidents Von der Leyen and Costa, it refers specifically to advancing co-operation between Canada and the EU around AI, cyber security, secure digital communications, advanced connectivity and the like. If it has not already started, I know it is on the list of action items that Mr. Hannaford has to work on to make sure that Canada and the EU and its member states are collaborating a little more closely on topics like that.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We will do a very quick second round of maybe two minutes each, starting with Deputy Ó Laoghaire.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This question has possibly been asked already but is there any update on the Prime Minister potentially visiting Ireland?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

When he was in Ottawa, and I was in those meetings, the Taoiseach formally invited the Prime Minister and he has agreed to come to Ireland. They seem to be looking at the calendar year 2026. We do not have a firm date or even a prospective date of when that might be. Logistically, the G7 is in France in early June. Either before or after that would seem to be a perfect time to make a stop in Ireland. Our embassy is inundated with emails from people and communities who would like to see the Prime Minister. He has three grandparents from County Mayo, in the parish of Aghagower, so he would be in demand here. I think it would be a good visit for him. I hope that we can help facilitate it if and when he gives us dates as to what that might be.

Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We discussed the ambassador's visits to my constituency. He was actually there twice in two weeks. He visited Carnew and went through Gorey and the beautiful Vale of Avoca down in Woodenbridge. I welcome what has happened in CETA and the incredible improvement in trade but I am concerned about the tourism figures. From the statistics I have received, there are approximately 41 million people living in Canada and 4.5 million people are in some way connected to Ireland, our diaspora, but we are only getting 180,000 visitors every year. Does the ambassador feel that we should be doing more to encourage more tourists to come here, and how can the Government help on that?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I think Deputy Bennett was talking about that as well. There is more meat on that bone, I would say, to be quite honest. Part of that is the advertising and education that could continue to be helpful in Canada. My own experience growing up on the east coast was that we always viewed Ireland as a bucket list trip.

It seemed like it was a million miles away when, in fact, it is faster for me to come to Ireland than it is for me to go to Vancouver from Prince Edward Island. There is a way to advertise a little bit more and to sort of make it known that people do not have to save their life savings and come when to Ireland they are 85. They can make ten trips to Ireland. I really think there is an opportunity to do that, and I think there is a very willing tourism and travelling crowd who want to go to places where, first of all, they are loved, respected and safe. Most of us have a family connection here so it should be an easy sell. It would not be a bad investment to increase some of Ireland's educational tourism advertising but when members go over on their trip, they should also make sure they tell people to get here and this is how easy it is to get here. I can promise them they will have more fun in Ireland than they will anywhere else.

Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

On a final point, as I said earlier, I would like to thank Mr. King for his efforts, and for his efforts in getting out of Dublin and going down and seeing the country. I wish him and his family the very best in his term.

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

I thank the Deputy very much. I say I am the ambassador here, but we are also tourists. I do not know if you are counting me in your numbers, but I am trying to drive the numbers up as best I can through all the different locations.

Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is much appreciated. I thank Mr. King very much.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Deputy. I call Senator Stephenson.

Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Canada has done loads over the years in relation to human rights defenders. It was one of the first countries to have a human rights defender protection scheme in terms of offering travel to people who are under threat to their lives. It has done a lot in the aid space for years. I am just disappointed that the Canadian Government cut aid spending by almost $3 billion. Is that a permanent cut? Does Mr. King see that being increased in the next budget cycle? The US and other European member states have increased their budgets. We have increased our budget. Ireland is a small country but we are very proud of our continued aim to provide 0.7% of GNP in ODA spending. Where is the Canadian Government's thought process around future aid commitments?

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

The Senator spelled it out very well. Canada has been a strong advocate and a significant investor. Canada is undergoing some fiscal challenges right now. On the fiscal realities we face, there have been reductions across the board in all departments in our budget with the exception of security and defence. We still spend a significant amount on making aid investments around the world. I have never witnessed in my short time here and in my former role that there is any kind of long-term plan to diminish aid and resources on a defined basis. The change the Senator sees this year are really some of the fiscal realities we are dealing with at home trying to get our fiscal house back in order so we can continue to make the investments. However, Canada's stature in the world as a promoter of human rights and investing in people who need it the most will continue to be a high priority for us.

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

For the record, Ireland was actually the 142nd country to recognise Palestine, so I think-----

H.E. Mr. Dennis King:

Oh, really? Okay.

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

-----the world has come very late. There is much to be done still in terms of self-determination in that regard.

I want to come back in again on CETA and a couple of the areas. Mr. O'Toole mentioned that this was, effectively, somewhat outdated. This is from ten years ago - it was negotiated in 2015 - and there have been different changes since. For example, Canada has exited the North American Free Trade Agreement, NAFTA, which was the previous investor-state dispute settlement, ISDS, heavy regime, and created a different trade agreement with the US having been sued many times under the NAFTA. Is it not the case that the environmental element and the co-operation we all hope for between the Canada and the EU is separate completely from ISDS? The co-operation between the parties we all hope for on environmental issues in no way limits the rights of companies to sue, and the particular Paris annex to CETA that was added does not explicitly include chapter 8 around investment protection. These companies are not parties to the agreement. They are not being asked to do any of the good stuff, but they are, effectively, able to sue. Mr. O'Toole might just confirm that because I did not get a confirmation off him, just a "Yes" and a "Yes" because it is the case. Canadian companies have sued governments for adopting environmental and climate policies and Canadian provinces have been sued by companies for making environmental stands and introducing climate policies. Is that not just the case of a "Yes" and "Yes" response? That is a fact.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Senator.

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I have one other question to come to, and this is a key piece. Again, it is because I want trade to happen with Ireland. I again read the Beyond Barriers: Deepening Canada–Ireland Trade and Investment report, and it was great. It asked why Canadian companies are here and noted "access to the EU market, tax policy, and a skilled workforce" is driving investment. Then the companies explicitly mention Ireland's deliberate policy of attracting foreign direct investment and that it is reaching out to Canadian firms. This is what drives a lot of that investment. However, when we go to the investment chapter of CETA, chapter 8 explicitly states that where applying the bare inequitable, that is like we are suing because we have not being treated fairly-----

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Senator.

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This is crucial. The tribunals will take into account whether Ireland, for example, has made specific representation or encouraged investment because that creates legitimate expectation. I want to be clear on where I am going, Chair-----

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I know, but we are over time. The Senator might try to be brief

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This is the key point. Is there not a danger where we create a perverse incentive or a negative barrier whereby, effectively, if the ISDS was in place, the positive measures we all want Ireland to take would actually make it more vulnerable under tribunals? Therefore, we may create a chilling effect on the positive incentives because they open up a legal vulnerability, which they currently do not because we have not brought in the investor courts component.

Mr. Christopher O'Toole:

I thank the Senator. There are maybe two things to mention here. One is in terms of the environment co-operation between Canada and the EU. It has been stupendous. I was one of the environment chapter negotiators for Canada and I remember a lot of hesitance on the part of Canada to agree to a civil society forum as part of CETA in the environment chapter. We did in the end, however, and if the Senator looks at the minutes of the civil society forum meetings, the trade and environment committee meetings and the sustainable law committee meetings, she will see a lot of recognition of the good efforts and good work that Canada and the European Union have done . The civil society representatives on the civil society forum are quite laudatory of what Canada and the EU do together.

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

However, companies are not bound by this.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Senator-----

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am sorry; I just need to be-----

Mr. Christopher O'Toole:

The second point I wanted to make, and maybe I did not get a chance to say this earlier, is that we have been moving. There has been an agreed and drafted interpretation around some of the articles I believe the Senator was mentioning around the investment chapter and, specifically, it actually excludes climate change. I will read it textually for the Senator. It states:

... measures of a Party that are designed and applied to protect legitimate public welfare objectives ... include measures taken to combat climate change or to address its present or future consequences.

It also states that:

When interpreting the provisions of ... [the investment chapter], the Tribunal shall give due consideration to the commitments of the Parties under multilateral environmental agreements, including the Paris Agreement ... [and that] the Agreement should be interpreted in a manner that supports the ability ... to give effect to their respective commitments to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by adopting or maintaining measures designed and applied to mitigate or combat climate change or address its present or future consequences.

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is just-----

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Senator very much. We will move on to Deputy Bennett.

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

However, that is only that tribunal.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Senator, we are moving on-----

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is not the ISDS courts in the World Bank-----

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Senator-----

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is one of the optional places where a company may choose to take cases.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Senator, we will move on to Deputy Bennett.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am actually okay, Chairman. That is fine.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I call Senator O'Loughlin.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am fine. I thank the Chairman.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That concludes the second round and the meeting. I thank the ambassador, H.E. Mr. King, and Mr. O'Toole for their very insightful contributions today. We look forward as a committee to working with them over the next number of months and years ahead. Today's meeting has been very helpful for the visit next month. We will now move to private session.