Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 13 November 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science
Apprenticeships: Discussion (Resumed)
2:00 am
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies have been received from Deputies John Connolly and Paul Murphy.
Everyone is welcome to this morning's meeting. I ask anyone attending remotely to mute themselves when not contributing so we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are in silent mode or switched off.
Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that, in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. As the witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at this meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.
Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official of the Houses either by name or in such a way to make him or her identifiable.
On the agenda for today's committee meeting is apprenticeships with the following witnesses: from AONTAS, the national adult learning organisation, we are joined by Ms Dearbháil Lawless, chief executive officer, and Mr. Conor Thompson, the head of advocacy and policy. From the Irish Traveller Movement, we are joined by Ms Bridget Kelly, national Traveller policy co-ordinator for employment and enterprise, and Mr. Rossa Gilesenan, the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme, TAIP, administrator. From Rehab Group, we are joined by Ms Anne Marie McDonnell, head of the programme and service design, and Mr. Adrian Stewart, head of employability. They are all very welcome.
Unfortunately, I am obliged by another commitment to be absent from the meeting for a time. Is there any objection to my nominating Senator Dee Ryan as Cathaoirleach Gníomhach in my absence? Is that agreed? Agreed.
I invite our first speaker, Ms Dearbháil Lawless, chief executive officer of AONTAS, to deliver her opening statement. I thank the witnesses and apologise for my absence..
Ms Dearbháil Lawless:
I thank the Chair and members of the committee for this opportunity. AONTAS brings learners, educators, providers and civil society organisations together to drive social change. For more than 55 years, we have campaigned for an equitable learning system with our members across the island of Ireland, championing adult and community education as a vital tool for social justice, equality, inclusion and democracy. With thanks to SOLAS and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, AONTAS meets learners across the country to find out about their experiences in the national further education and training, FET, learner forum.
The further education sector is vital. The construction of this building and others like it requires stonemasonry, plumbing, electricity, carpentry, heating and painting, which are skills achieved through FET. While the world transforms at a rapid rate, it is FET that leaps forward to meet the needs of our infrastructure and future employment. It also upholds Ireland’s social contract by supporting people that have been marginalised by unmet literacy needs, poverty, trauma or discrimination.
The AONTAS vision for the future of apprenticeships is informed by international best practice and learner voice research data. Most importantly, this vision calls for apprenticeships that are accessible to all, regardless of gender, age, geography or socioeconomic background. They must reflect the diversity of our society and offer real opportunities for those furthest from education and dignified employment.
We recommend the provision of guaranteed work placements and employer access, particularly for apprentices who face discrimination or have less social capital. Without access to employers, the apprenticeship model or completion of mandatory work placement in many post-leaving certificate, PLC, courses is not possible. Our latest learner voice report highlights this issue and provides an example of a learner having to send 80 emails to employers before they could access a 60-hour placement.
We further recommend the improvement of the financial supports available to apprentices by increasing wages and providing additional funding for equipment, transport and emergency supports. Some 36% of apprentices said their financial situation affects their ability to learn, and this is supported by findings in the national apprenticeship office report. Apprentices and other learners miss class sometimes because they cannot afford transport.
We also recommend the provision of co-ordination managers to co-ordinate placements, services and stakeholders, prioritising suitable placements for apprentices within commuting distance and offering flexibility, where possible. Geographic inequality is a barrier. Many apprentices face long commutes or must relocate to access training. This has a knock-on impact on transport and meal costs. Some apprentices have reported sleeping in their vans. This issue also disproportionately creates barriers for people with caring responsibilities, most of whom are women, and learners with disabilities. Local provision, mobile training units and blended delivery can offer flexibility. Co-ordination managers can also support service referrals and information on mental health, financial aid and childcare. Apprentices consistently report lower satisfaction levels in these areas compared to their peers.
We also recommend a pilot delegated authority for education and training boards, ETBs, or shared awarding partnership between ETBs and higher education institutions, and the undertaking of curriculum reviews. Apprenticeships and vocational training must be relevant, responsive to employer and sectoral needs, and innovative. This authority would enable ETBs to design, validate and adapt programmes locally, reducing administrative delays and improving responsiveness and skills relevance.
It can also help to build the profile of further education and training, FET, enabling increased curriculum reviews, and address apprentices' concerns on industry standards.
The fifth recommendation is to develop a social value procurement policy to make social value scoring mandatory in all public tenders and increase employer investment in apprenticeships. In learning from Northern Ireland we can require a service provider's' commitment to key priorities in the delivery of new contracts, including in hiring apprentices, employee diversity, training provision, ethical and sustainable goods and services and climate impact measures. More employers should provide relevant equipment, mentoring and increased investment for apprenticeship programmes.
FET and apprenticeships should be a first-choice pathway. Achieving this requires enabling policy, employer investment, wider government support, and the removal of class bias and linear thinking in our expectations of who an apprentice is and how they should be educated. FET is for everyone and we have a duty to facilitate lifelong learning and inclusive apprenticeships. Aontas is ready to support the committee with this work. Our learner voice model offers a clear pathway to ensure that apprentices are not just recipients of policy, but co-creators of it. As the saying goes: those closest to the problem are closest to the solution. Together, we can build an apprenticeship system that is inclusive, equitable and empowering for all.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith agat. I call Ms Bridget Kelly from the Irish Traveller Movement.
Ms Bridget Kelly:
I thank the Chair and members for inviting me to talk to the committee about the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme, TAIP. I am delighted to be joined by my colleague Rossa Gilsenan, the programme administrator
I will first outline the context of need for this specialised scheme. Traveller joblessness remains high. Progress is slow-paced on the few existing defined actions in Government-led strategies. Systemic barriers remain untackled in plans. From the latest available data, fewer than one in eight working age Travellers were in paid employment, compared with 70% of people nationally and only 16% of Traveller women were employed, and these face specific compounded obstacles to the jobs market. Systemic barriers, including racism and discrimination in the workplace, low educational attainment, the absence of targeted supports and employer engagement strategies continue to contribute to poverty, social exclusion, poor health outcomes and intergenerational disadvantage for Travellers.
The TAIP as a targeted measure has shown successful results and reach. It must, however, move from a pilot to a sustainable national programme embedded within Ireland’s apprenticeship and employment strategies. This is important given an assessment of the programme and some impediments that were encountered. Low employer engagement was found, with more Travellers seeking apprenticeships than employers are currently willing to take them on. There is low level of Traveller disclosure, where eligible employers are not availing of the €2,000 grant, largely as some apprentices' fear of disclosing their identity due to discrimination. Access to pre-apprenticeship training remains limited. These pathways are essential for preparing apprentices but they are oversubscribed. Stronger prioritisation for Travellers is urgently needed. There are deeply embedded systemic barriers. Apprenticeships alone cannot solve Traveller unemployment and broader barriers, including racism in recruitment, are a major problem.
In 2023, the Labour Market Advisory Council during its mid-term review of Pathways to Work recognised the need to enhance labour market participation for disadvantaged groups, including members of the Traveller community. A subsequent outcome was the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme. TAIP is funded by the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science through the Dormant Accounts Fund and is hosted by the Irish Traveller Movement. We support Travellers to access and to remain in apprenticeships and to encourage employers to take on Traveller apprentices. Employer grants of €2,000 and bursaries of up to €3,000 are available for Traveller apprentices and pre-apprenticeship participants.
The TAIP model is rooted in a community development approach, which is Traveller-led, and ensures culturally appropriate and needs-based support. We raise awareness of the bursary and apprenticeships through the network of local Traveller representative organisations and we work with a range of education, training and support organisations and employers to enhance access to apprenticeship opportunities for Travellers.
With regard to programme outcomes, an evaluation is under way and is due to be published by the Department at the end of this year. There are some topline outcomes that are evident. There have been 477 expressions of interest in the programme since 2023. Only eight employers have taken up the grant and just one so far in 2025. Over 90% of those who completed an expression of interest met the education requirements for apprenticeships and 32% had leaving certificate or higher. Bursaries have been crucial in helping apprentices stay in and progress through their apprenticeships, covering costs such as tools, equipment, clothing, and transport. Recipients reported increased confidence, empowerment and feeling on an equal footing with their colleagues. Fewer Traveller women than expected applied and a specific focus is now on combating the barriers to participation for Traveller women. Some barriers were noted by the apprentices. There was a fear of discrimination, a lack of confidence in approaching potential employers and limited connections to them and the fear of identity disclosure, as previously mentioned. Most had witnessed language that was discriminatory and offensive to Travellers in the workplace but did not feel in a position to challenge it.
On the challenges, we continue to work with employers to understand the discriminatory obstacles encountered. This undertaking is bigger than the available resources to the programme and there is a need for a multilevel focus and drive. Encouraging stronger engagement, and particularly within the public service, will be essential to ensure apprenticeships become a real and lasting opportunity for Travellers. Travellers need to be prioritised in pre-apprenticeship and access to apprenticeship training courses. There are not enough available and those that are available do not have enough places to meet the demand. A multilevel, committed and prioritised focus is needed across all stakeholders, employer bodies both private and public, training institutions, and the national employment activation programmes to promote the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme and to increase employer uptake. Securing long-term, mainstream funding to provide stability and sustainability for TAIP beyond the Dormant Accounts Fund is vital. I thank members. We are happy to address any questions from the committee.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Kelly. I call Ms Anne Marie McDonnell to begin the opening statement for the National Learning Network.
Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:
The Rehab Group and National Learning Network thank the Chair and the members of the committee for the opportunity to present on the topic of apprenticeships. Rehab Group is an independent voluntary organisation that has supported adults and children with disabilities for more than 75 years. As a campaigning and advocacy body, we represent the voices of the 12,500 individuals who currently access our services, as well as their families. Our mission is to empower those we support to live more independent lives and to participate fully in their communities. We achieve this through the delivery of high-quality, flexible and sustainable services in care, education and training and employment.
The National Learning Network, NLN, is a provider of inclusive education, training, and employment support for disabled people or people with additional support needs in every county. We are primarily funded by the 16 education and training boards and the HSE. The network offers universally designed person-centred programmes that enable people to develop transversal skills, achieve qualifications, progress to further education and training and get jobs. While not offering apprenticeships, NLN offers multiple programmes that have progression pathways to a wide range of apprenticeships, including accounting technician, commis chef, carpentry and joinery, and stonecutting and stonemasonry.
NLN and FIT, Fastrack into Information Technology, have recently entered a partnership in efforts to support more disabled students to thrive in careers in the IT sector. This includes supporting students to pursue apprenticeships in software development, computer networking or cybersecurity. However, the employment rate of people with disabilities is persistently low and those who are in employment are often underemployed. A total of 51% of the people with disabilities in employment are in elementary occupations, while over 40% of people with disabilities are completely outside of the labour market. Apprenticeships are a pathway that can open up jobs and careers for disabled students in so many new occupational areas and industries.
I will share a short example from Niamh, a former student with the NLN in Monaghan, which shows how inclusive training can lead directly into an apprenticeship. She states:
When I first attended the National Learning Network, I met with the team to decide what course would suit me and I opted for the fastrack to employment course. Before that, I had been in college doing two different degrees, but I left. I was applying for jobs everywhere and getting no replies. I felt I had no direction. The course at NLN was a great re-set and helped me figure out what I wanted to do and build confidence. As part of the course I did work experience in an accountant’s office in Monaghan. This experience made me realise that accountancy would suit me. I'm now doing an accounting technician apprenticeship at Monaghan Institute and really enjoying it. NLN was such a supportive community. It gave me direction, confidence and a real sense of belonging.
Niamh's experience shows how inclusive, person-centred training can act as a bridge to apprenticeships. It also highlights the value of guidance, training supports and confidence-building activities, which must be coupled with relevant work experience in helping disabled learners progress to skilled and sustainable careers.
Moving to recommendations, we recognise there are still systemic barriers preventing many people with disabilities from accessing apprenticeships. The costs of disability, such as additional travel, health and living expenses, must be addressed in tandem with efforts to increase participation of disabled people in apprenticeships and in the labour market. Employers involved in apprenticeships should be supported to develop greater awareness of, and access to, the Department of Social Protection's work and access grants to ensure enabling environments. There could be a high-profile national campaign showcasing disabled apprenticeships and inclusive employers to encourage more disabled students to pursue apprenticeships as a career.
When new apprenticeships and programmes are being developed, collaboration typically takes place between the industry partner and education and training providers but this overlooks the voice of people with lived experience of disability. The involvement of disabled people at the early stages would help ensure that inclusion and universal design principles are embedded in the structures and delivery of apprenticeships, rather than being added later as adjustments or accommodations. The committee may wish to recommend that individuals with lived experience be formally included in the codesign of pre-apprenticeship and apprenticeship programmes. Inviting those individuals to coproduce apprenticeships and pre-apprenticeships is not only a matter of equality but a matter of quality.
I thank the Chair and members for the opportunity to speak. We believe by embedding universal design coproduction and equitable supports for disabled people and employers, Ireland's apprenticeship system can become a genuine model of inclusion for all.
Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Lawless outlined AONTAS's vision of diversity in terms of geography and socioeconomic background, which are two very important aspects. It is something I have come across from being on ETBs. Ms Lawless mentioned affordable transport. Does she have any more information on the south-east area, including counties Wexford and Wicklow? It was shocking to hear that some have to sleep in their vans. As someone who was on an ETB for ten years, I agree with the five recommendations in that.
In terms of procurement policy, we need to support smaller employers, maybe with the provision of equipment if, say, an electrician wants to take on an apprentice. If there are supports there, many electricians or people involved in crafts may not be aware of them. Something is needed to encourage and facilitate employers to buy equipment.
I thank Ms Kelly for her presentation. I was very interested because I used to run a homework club on a halting site for many years in north-west Dublin. What she said about discrimination and 64% being unemployed for more than 12 months was shocking. Are any grants available to provide supports? There was reference to Dublin, Offaly, Limerick and Meath. Has she any information on Wicklow or Wexford? Certainly in Wexford, there is a high concentration of the Traveller community. If employers are not availing of the supports, will she expand on how we could address that?
Ms McDonnell spoke about the National Learning Network and disabilities. There are many barriers for employers, especially small employers who might not be aware of the supports. She spoke about the Department of Social Protection's work and access grant. I agree that those directly affected by disabilities should be central to any decisions. Has she any recommendations for a publicity campaign? There are some supports out there but many employers, especially small employers, are not aware of them. If she had any ideas on running or promoting a publicity campaign, that would be great.
I thank all the witnesses for their excellent presentations.
Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:
Working with employers - Mr. Stewart as head of employability will come in on that - we sometimes find employers talking to other employers is a more credible way. We are fortunate that some of the employers we work with avail of the work and access grant. Showcasing how employers use it to other employers might be one way. It also goes back to the point about disabled people, bringing them in from the beginning to look at designing and developing any campaign and people showing each other the difference an accommodation or support has made. We must get the two lenses. It is important for apprenticeships that we recognise many employers are making great efforts and trying. Sometimes awareness of something might be stopping them from making a change. It is about a campaign looking through two lenses: disabled students but also employers who wish to change and need support.
Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Could social media play a positive part in that?
Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:
Absolutely. When I am coming in along the quays, I also like to see billboards. It should be as visible as possible. We want employers driving to work and then having that question when they get into the office or go onto the site about what it means for them. Social media and anything else that can hit home would be very welcome.
Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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It is something we could make a recommendation on.
Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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It should not be too difficult to address. It is fairly basic.
Mr. Adrian Stewart:
The work and access programme is a relatively new programme from the Department of Social Protection and there have been teething problems rolling it out. The timing in terms of promoting is ideal now. The scheme is embedded in the Department and it is an ideal time to promote it among employers and get the message out that it is something they can avail of for employees and apprenticeships.
Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I agree.
Ms Bridget Kelly:
Employer uptake of the grants has been very low, as we outlined. Based on the experience of apprentices and what they have told us, the fear of disclosing to the employer was one issue. In addition, for members of the Traveller community in certain areas there are popular surnames in Tullamore or Galway or wherever. If you are doing an apprenticeship, you need an employer and in small towns trying to get an employer is a challenge. It is a big issue. The Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme has done a lot of work on targeting employers. There has been a lot of positive work in relation to some public sector employers, for example, the ESB. We are working with Bus Éireann at the moment. We are working with Irish Rail and Mr. Price as well. They are working with us on being visible and targeting members of the Traveller community to take on and do apprenticeships. More work needs to be done with local employers. We are linking in but it is a big challenge for the community at the moment. The unemployment rate is 63% for members of the Traveller community. It is linked to racism and discrimination, both indirect and direct. It is a big issue and needs to be addressed but we are putting a lot of work into working with employers.
The Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission launched a Traveller and Roma inclusive employment guide last Monday, which will be a huge support to us in working with employers. There is now a guide available to get the employer informed, active and supported. The guide will give employers a better understanding of Traveller culture and the experiences Travellers have during their lives.
It also has key recommendations as to what they can do to be a better and more inclusive employer and to take on more Travellers and Roma within their workplace.
I will ask Ms Gilsenan to answer the question on the grants in the Wexford and Wicklow areas.
Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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That is great. Thanks.
Ms Rossa Gilsenan:
We have had interest from Travellers in Wicklow and Wexford. We have had more success getting Travellers into apprenticeships in Wicklow than in Wexford, partly because it is closer to Dublin and partly because there is no Traveller organisation in Wexford so there are more limited supports for Travellers there. They also do not have access to an access to apprenticeship course in Wicklow or Wexford. There are only two access to apprenticeship courses in the country. We need more pre-apprenticeship courses overall. There is limited pre-apprenticeship course access in that area. We have given one grant so far in Wexford and five in total in Wicklow.
Ms Dearbháil Lawless:
While I am also a Wicklow woman, I am ashamed to say I do not have figures on County Wicklow specifically. More generally, however, what we put together was a costing around an increase in financial supports. We would suggest an increase of 55.1% to match inflation since 2002 and that would be an estimated cost of €9.71 million annually. However, while I understand this may not be feasible in certain ways, if we were to specifically address transport we could have a targeted approach whereby apprentices who are being asked to travel a further distance could be given a supplementary allowance to makes sure that is a sustainable programme of learning for them.
More generally, one of the things that is not taking place is accommodation provision to apprentices. While we see higher education students accessing accommodation, which is very important, there is a need for parity of esteem between further education and higher education. We recommend that locally as well to ensure everybody across the country has access to their training provision.
My colleague Mr. Thompson will be able to provide examples of what has worked really well internationally in supporting small and medium business enterprises to help them to provide things like equipment and to ensure that things are of the standard needed.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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We may come back to that with other members of the committee. I thank the witnesses. I now call on Senator Pauline Tully.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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Good morning to everyone. I thank the witnesses for being here and for their presentations. We have heard some of the issues they have identified from other people who have been before the committee, such as the costs associated with apprenticeships, the cost of buying equipment, transport, the low wages and the travelling to off-the-job training. The suggestion of a co-ordination manager to look at that is very welcome. That is something that should be taken on board.
Being on the disability committee in the previous term, I was very aware of the low participation rate of disabled people in employment here. I was not aware that the participation of Travellers was so low. That is really concerning. It is concerning in both sectors. The witnesses have all identified issues with employers. Ms Kelly said there was 477 expressions of interest. Would all of those people have taken up apprenticeships? She said there were only eight employers who accessed the grant. How many employers in total would have been involved? What number is that eight out of, just to give an indication? We have identified that more work needs to be done with employers across the board. Speaking to a disabled person one day about getting work, they said they felt that the issue with employers - especially if someone had a mobility issue or was in a wheelchair - was insurance and what would happen if there was a fire in the building and they had to get someone out. Is that an issue? Has any research been done with employers to know why exactly they may be reluctant to employ Travellers or disabled people? We have low participation in apprenticeships across a number of different sectors. It affects Travellers, disabled people and women in general. Will the witnesses expand on the social value in procurement policy that is in place in the North and how that works to identify people to be included and so on? Will they give us some information on that?
Ms Dearbháil Lawless:
In the North, they have a system where any provider who is maintaining a public contract or putting in a tender for a public contract has a scoring element; I think it is 10%. Within that, they might ask questions around gender, people from working class backgrounds, people from the Traveller community and a range of different areas to ensure public money is being spent in a way that actually benefits society and ensures a fairer access for people who would not have those opportunities and who face discrimination. It is believed to be working very well. It would make a big impact, especially when we consider apprenticeships and supporting people with disabilities and Travellers.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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That is good. It works well and it is not complicated.
Mr. Conor Thompson:
I thank Senator Tully for the question. The specific example we are aware of is within Belfast City Council. A representative from there spoke at an Aontas event in Belfast a number of years ago. They had a mechanism for rating a tender based on the number of apprentices in an organisation as well. That could be something that could work very well here. The public sector duty is perhaps the policy and legislative mechanism that this could be aligned with.
Ms Bridget Kelly:
Regarding the employer grants, the uptake of grants, as we have said, has been very low. Some of the apprentices are obviously not disclosing due to the fear of repercussions or the fear of losing their employment with the employer. However, we have been doing a lot of work in trying to increase the uptake of employers. We have also been linking in with the National Apprenticeship Office. We are working on a national employer Traveller campaign. We are at the very early stages in that regard. We are currently working with the office but we are saying it is bigger than us and bigger than the National Apprenticeship Office. The likes of IBEC, the trade unions and all relevant stakeholders need to be part of that, and also the Government. The national Traveller and Roma inclusion strategy sets out key actions there as well in relation to trying to address the unemployment situation for Travellers. While there is some key positive work happening within NTRIS, we were promised an employment and enterprise training strategy in 2020 under the programme for Government and it was supposed to come in under NTRIS as well. Unfortunately, that has never come to light. However, we are pushing for that under NTRIS because it is key to helping the situation and putting key actions in place that will help to address the employment situation for Travellers.
There is huge work happening with employers. We are linking in with the public sector and with ESB and Bus Éireann as I touched on earlier. Those organisations have been very visible. The ESB is a semi-State body. We recently took part in a panel discussion with it at the national inclusion and diversity conference. I do not know if Ms Gilsenan feels the same but we found that there were a lot of employers in the room for the panel discussion and coming from that meeting alone a few of them have reached out. When an employer steps out, becomes more visible and takes on Traveller apprentices, it does have an effect. We need to see more employers like that. We need to see more employers that will take on Travellers in apprenticeships but also in employment or work placements or for work experience. It is a big issue. There is a big challenge but we are working on it and more needs to be done. As I said, it is bigger than the programme. It needs Government intervention and the likes of IBEC and the trade unions.
Regarding the stats around the 477 expressions of interest, I do not have the exact stats of how many are in apprentices but between 100 and 130 have gone on to do apprenticeships. I will come back to the Deputy with the exact figure. Some of these would be pre-apprenticeship courses as well. It is great to see. With our programme we have seen that the community is engaging with the programme. The demand is there and the need is there but it is just getting buy-in from the employers. We need more employers on board that will take on Traveller apprentices. Our programme also needs to move from a pilot to a more mainstream funding programme that helps to address the employment and meet the demand and the need for Traveller apprentices across the country.
Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:
On the low participation rate of disabled people in the labour market and apprenticeships, we were all talking about targeted approaches. From a national learning network lens, while we have spoken about having those progression pathways from our courses, we recognise that a lot of our students are quite distant from the labour market.
We are interested in exploring that. We are in discussions with some education and training boards about looking at more pre-apprenticeship training programmes to support that transition.
One of the Senator's questions, I think, was about employers being a little apprehensive, perhaps, about employing more people. It comes back to a previous question to me. It is more about awareness. Sometimes, perhaps, employers are rightly concerned about health and safety and having safe workplaces, but it is about that awareness as to what a personal evacuation plan might look like for somebody who is blind or a wheelchair user. I loved it when Ms Lawless said people who are closest to the problem are closest to the solution. Hearing from disabled people when employers have concerns and having those open dialogues might be helpful. Then, through a campaign, it is a matter of using more language that we all use every day.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I now call on Deputy Donna McGettigan.
Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of the AONTAS funding, would the representatives say that in budget 2026 the budget allocated to it would be enough to secure it for the year to help people coming in through its system? We have spoken to apprentices, as my colleague Senator Tully said. There seems to be a weird system whereby when you are on off-the-job training you get only a few weeks' notice as to where you are going, and you could have someone from Donegal going down to Cork or someone from Cork going up to Donegal. Would the representatives say a system of choice like the CAO system would be better for that? This is an extra barrier for apprenticeships.
On the Irish Traveller Movement, there was a great system piloted in Clare called the Clare Traveller Community Development Project. It came out in 2021 and what it did was amazing. It gives an uplift to the Traveller movement in Clare and it should be rolled out across the country. Do the witnesses think, when it comes to employers, that the local authorities and public bodies should employ more people from the Traveller community? That would take out that barrier of disclosure. I think that really would work, and then success stories could branch out from that.
On people with disabilities, do the witnesses think some people would be afraid to disclose their disability to employers because of discrimination and being passed over for jobs? A lot of people, including myself, have a hidden disability. I have never lied about it but I would be reluctant to disclose it because I know for a fact that employers would look at the disability and just say no and give the position to another applicant. Do the witnesses think that is the case?
Ms Dearbháil Lawless:
In terms of the FET budget, I have to give credit to the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. There has been an increase and a lot of momentum put behind trying to support FET more broadly, and particularly apprenticeships. I commend the Department on doing that. However, there is a very high target that SOLAS and the ETBs are trying to reach and it is coming from Government level. Those targets are placing a lot of pressure on trying to make sure we are meeting those targets. Unfortunately, the funding is not there to sustain that model and make sure that it is done well, so the quality of the provision is being impacted and the experience of the apprentices themselves is being impacted. I feel very strongly that if we are going to provide targets, we have to make sure we provide the funding to do that well, or else all we will do is cause damage. In line with that, what we have seen at local level is that other areas of the budget are then being impacted in a negative way. For example, community education and literacy provision are now being impacted negatively, with smaller budgets because of the implications of ETBs trying to meet the demand they have been placed under to support apprenticeships. They are just doing the best they can with the budget they have.
In terms of the CAO, I would always be hesitant in a way to suggest a model that I might not know would work well in that sense. I believe that at the moment what happens is that there is a three-choice process. For example, an apprentice will be offered a location and if they refuse it because it is too far away, they will get two more opportunities. While that might seem fair, in reality it is not fair because if all those choices are very far away from you, you might be a parent, you might have a disability or you might just not be able to afford that transport and, in reality, your back is still against a wall. The realistic situation there is less pressure on the targets in order that the programme can be delivered well, the apprentices have a better experience and there are much more opportunities to say no until there is a suitable placement nearby. Maybe providing something like case managers could make sure that happens. While it is important to make sure we are moving forward with policy and educational provision, if we do not fund it appropriately all we will do is cause damage and equality will suffer.
Ms Bridget Kelly:
In response to the Deputy's question about employers, yes, I agree that the public sector should be more involved and reaching out to us with regard to taking on Traveller apprentices but also Travellers as regards the various Departments, the likes of the local authorities and so on. They can be champion employers. As the Deputy said, you can celebrate those success stories then. More employers would then be more open and willing to work with us with regard to being more inclusive and taking on Traveller apprentices. I acknowledge that there is some work happening. It goes back to some of the actions under the NTRIS. Recruitment under the Traveller and Roma work placement programme is happening at the moment. This will just give members an example. There was recruitment for 12 people across the various Departments; however, 75 applicants have come forward and were interviewed. That just tells us again that there is a high need yet there are not enough placements there. That is another key example. Yes, we need to see more public sector employers on board. That is another area we are trying to push and we will keep working away at it.
Mr. Adrian Stewart:
On the Deputy's question about disclosure, that has been there for years. Generally, if a person requires accommodations in the workplace or there are serious health and safety concerns, we would encourage the person to disclose at that point in time because it is obviously impossible for an employer to put in supports if they are not aware what the supports are. It is very much down to discussions with the people themselves and for them to think it through for themselves. The fact that there is a fear about disclosing in itself pinpoints the fact that there is an attitudinal barrier there that has to be overcome. It is something that is definitely there in the system.
Frank Feighan (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses are very welcome and I thank them for the great work they do. In my past 20 years in the Oireachtas, and when I was a Minister of State, the one thing that really brought great joy to my heart was going to graduation ceremonies of apprentices because you could see the great pride. This is what we need. We need to upskill everybody to fuel Ireland's future, so I thank the witnesses for the great work they have done.
We have had a lot of apprentices before the committee and they have been pretty stark sometimes about conditions and so on. Ms Lawless referred to providing "co-ordination managers to co-ordinate placements, services and stakeholders". It was kind of embarrassing that somebody in Dundalk had to go to Sligo, which is where I come from. Sligo is a great place, by the way, but it was a long way to go. Somebody from Dublin was being sent to Waterford. We need to do an awful lot more. Everyone is so busy in various silos that they do not come together, but this was one issue on which I felt we could do an awful lot better. What more can we do, or what more can the witnesses do, with the other Departments? The closer people are to their place of education the better from the point of view of accommodation costs and travel costs. Again, I am in Sligo and we have Atlantic Technological University, ATU. I know it does not provide apprenticeships, but we are very proud that it is the first such university north of the Dublin-Sligo line. It has brought great confidence to the area. Again, I thank the ETB and the community training centres. We were there last week and they have a new course being designed. It is a matter of thinking outside the box. I really appreciate it when people do not just go into work and say, "God, we will just go through the motions." It is great to see people like the witnesses who think outside the box and make it possible for people who probably come from disadvantaged backgrounds to enter into a trade and make money.
What more can we do with financial supports? There is a fund but people did not realise there was funding for equipment and transport, etc. I would have thought it was a simple little thing that there would be someone in every college who would say to them, "this is what you are looking for." They need a go-to person who can tell them that they can get a grant for their tools. They might not be that sure about the position but they will be delighted to learn about what is there. We need to do a little bit more.
I thank the witnesses for the great work they do. It is something I have a huge interest in. As I said last week, I am not an academic and I am no good with my hands. I think I was destined for politics. I appreciate that this is one area we lost sight of, or did not pay as much attention to. Now we are catching up - I think pretty quickly - but we need to do a lot more.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Feighan. I invite Deputy Cummins to question the witnesses.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank everybody here. It is very interesting to hear the different perspectives. In recent weeks, we have had people in talking about their different perspectives on apprenticeships.
I have three areas to discuss. The first is what the witnesses were saying about apprentices sleeping in their vans. I have been contacted by people in my own constituency who have to travel far to complete their apprenticeships. It is a shocking and desperate situation. It is shocking to hear that someone who is trying to get a career and is working really hard to do that has to sleep in their van. I have heard it before. When you hear that at an Oireachtas committee, it is an awful situation. We have to do better. It is not good enough. One of the things we talked about last week was the lack of a campus life for an apprentice. That is an example of somebody missing out on a really positive life experience while doing an apprenticeship.
I visited the College East campus in Ballyfermot recently. I realise now that some people who are here today might have been present on that occasion. When I was there when it was a shell of a building, I thought "God, they have some vision for this building". It certainly was some vision because when I went to the launch I was speechless. It is a lovely, warm place that is full of kindness and a real sense of potential and hope for the future. If that is an example of what is being done in Rehab for learners, and if it is replicated throughout the country, we are very lucky. I came away feeling that it is incredible. It was really inspirational to hear the learners speak about what they are doing, what they hope for and why they love it. Well done to everyone on that.
In stark contrast, Traveller women are not taking up apprenticeships. When I worked in youth work and the school completion programme, I worked with members of the Traveller community and education was something they were really striving to achieve. What do the witnesses think can be done to support Traveller women to take up apprenticeships? There is a missing part of our population not participating there and that is something we need to address. We can address lots of other things but I always feel that if we are not able to support the people who are missing out the most, we are not succeeding anywhere. I would love to know what the witnesses think could be done to encourage Traveller women to take up apprenticeships. What needs to be done? It is not enough to encourage them. They can be encouraged to go - everybody can be encouraged to go - but we need the follow-through that makes sure they are able to succeed. I would be very interested to hear what the witnesses have to say.
Ms Bridget Kelly:
I thank the Deputy for her questions. As part of our programme, we found that the uptake among Traveller women was low. However, we have been doing a lot of work to target Traveller women. We have been doing a lot of workshops and Traveller women focus groups. That has been done with our outreach officers and with Traveller women leading those workshops. When Traveller women see other Traveller women, they will actually look. They have been very effective. We have seen a slight improvement in the number of Traveller women engaging in the programme but the uptake of apprenticeships is still low. There is a lot of work to be done in that area. We would recommend that more apprenticeships are needed. Even though there are some apprenticeships there, we hear Traveller women saying that more suitable apprenticeships are needed in areas like childcare. Different types of apprenticeships like that are needed.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I would be really interested to know what that would be. That theme has come through from many different groups that have been here over the past while. They have spoken about the types of apprenticeships that are available and what else could be available.
Ms Bridget Kelly:
During the work we have been doing with Traveller women, we have seen them come through apprenticeships in areas like motor mechanics and hairdressing. Another Traveller woman did financial accounting. We have seen other Traveller women looking for more childcare courses. They are saying there needs to be more around childcare but there are no childcare apprenticeships. That is something that could be worked on.
I think there is a lack of role models for Traveller women. However, we are currently working with a young Traveller woman, Mary Ward - she will not mind me saying her name today - who was nominated for an apprentice of the year award. It was good for her to be visible because her employer is very inclusive and knew from the get-go that she was a member of the Traveller community. Mary has been a great role model but we need to see more Marys and Traveller women.
As I said, it is a big piece of work that the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme is working on. Again, it is bigger than us. We need the support from other stakeholders, such as the FETs and the education and training boards. They are some of the issues around that.
Ms Dearbháil Lawless:
I thank the Deputy and will try to speak to both questions. I agree with her that it is not good enough. As a country, we should be ashamed that we are okay with marginalising people. We need a serious mindset shift in order to address the inequalities that take place. It is not good enough that people are having to live their lives without dignity by sleeping in vans and living in poverty, and are spending years of their lives struggling to obtain an education to improve their family circumstances and move forward in their life circumstances. I appreciate everybody's support in trying to change that. It is brilliant that the committee has spent so much time focusing on this area.
In terms of supporting women, childcare is a massive barrier. It comes up again and again. We all know how expensive childcare is. It is not feasible for someone who has caring responsibilities to be able to engage in a programme of extensive study. They always feel like they are putting themselves first and it is selfish, but it is not selfish. All they are trying to do is provide themselves and their family with better opportunities. If there was free or heavily subsidised childcare, I believe we would see a significant shift in supporting Traveller women and all women in terms of apprenticeships and education more broadly.
At present, the funding we have for meals, travel and accommodation is not realistic. For travel, you can get up to €32.60. That is not going to put fuel in someone's car to drive from Dublin to Waterford. There is no way we can say-----
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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You would hardly get a sandwich and a coffee for that in some places.
Ms Dearbháil Lawless:
Exactly. The mindset we have, in terms of not increasing our budgets to match the cost of living, is not acceptable. All we are doing is insulting people by saying we do not think they are trying hard enough if they do not manage to make this work. We need to change our mindsets around that.
As regards how we could offer things differently, the newer apprenticeships - the consortia-led ones - are doing quite well in terms of flexibility. The tradition in any place is to continue to do things the way they have been done. The consortia-led apprenticeships have been more flexible in the way they deliver things. This is because they have had the apprentices, the employers and the providers at the table talking that through together. If we were to consider things like mobile training units and blended delivery, we would see a big shift in bringing people who we have low percentages of, like the Traveller community or disabled people, into those programmes.
While we have guidance counsellors and they are excellent at the job they do, we do not have enough. They are understaffed and have many people they are supporting. The numbers we are seeing in FET are increasing rapidly, which is brilliant, but the budget is not there to match it. If we had more support for guidance counsellors, we would see a big difference in availability of the information to help those apprentices. I also recommend having case managers specifically for apprentices. Their learning experience is quite different from other FET learners in respect of how long they can run for, the needs they have and the experience we want them to have because they are on the job. Those changes would hopefully make a big difference.
Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:
I thank the Deputy for her questions. There is one area she talked about there and I can speak to something she brought up.
She mentioned that apprentices do not have the same campus life experience that many other students do. Geography is so important. For some disabled apprentices, it is very important for them to be closer to the home. That may have implications because of cost of disability. Unfortunately, some people have to rely on more natural and family supports at different times in order to participate. There is another reason that some disabled students need to be closer to home. Having not only choice but also choice and preference in the context of where the geographical locations can be would be really helpful.
A few of us mentioned parity of esteem not just between higher education and further education but also within the further education sector. In the context of accessing the fund for students with disabilities, we do not seem to hear from disabled students that there is access to the same sort of funds. It might be useful to consider whether the fund for students with disabilities is adequate in the context of reaching out to all disabled students.
As Ms Kelly stated, more role models are needed. I mentioned earlier that we are working with FIT. There will be an event on 25 November, HERo in Tech, which is about encouraging more women to take up careers in IT. We want to encourage more disabled women to think about those careers. More role models and more lived experience are needed.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I will allow Ms Kelly to come back in again. I apologise to Deputy Feighan because I did not realise people had indicated that they wanted to come in at the end of his question.
Ms Bridget Kelly:
In relation to Traveller women, as Ms Lawless touched on, there are obstacles as well. Childcare is a big obstacle for Traveller women in regard to accessing apprenticeships. More measures need to be put in place to address these obstacles in order that Traveller women can go on and do apprenticeships. The big obstacle for Traveller women is getting the employers to take them on to do apprenticeships. This is not just the case for Traveller women; it is across the board. It is an issue for Traveller women, however, so it needs to be addressed. A big emphasis needs to be put on that area. We are doing some work ourselves, but again, it is bigger than us. As I said, the National Apprenticeship Office, the trade unions, IBEC and the various Departments need to work together, particularly on the employment enterprise strategy that we were promised back in 2020. That would help. It would be helpful if more employers were more inclusive and were willing to take on Travellers within the workplace.
As I said earlier, there is a grant of €3,000 available for Travellers. We are finding that most of the Travellers who apply for the apprenticeship grant, along with other people who are doing apprenticeships across the country, really rely on it. However, we are seeing that Travellers are living in poverty, and they really rely on the grant. We touched earlier on the fact that people living in small towns have to travel from there to a city to do their apprenticeships. The grant is very beneficial, in particular to members of the Traveller community. To be honest, we would not have been able to do this without the support from the Department of further and higher education, which has funded our programme. The community relies on the grant. Apprentices need a lot of tools and equipment, and they might have to pay costs as well. While our bursary is good, more grants need to be made available, in particular for Travellers across the country. We cannot just be left with the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme either. We need to see more grants being made available for Traveller women and men doing apprenticeships in order to support them to get to the final year of their apprenticeships and to have the education to equip them with the skills and knowledge and then to progress to employment in the workplace.
Laura Harmon (Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for being here. My apologies for being late. I was at another meeting, but I did tune in to this one and I have read all the opening statements.
It is really important that we are having this discussion with the witnesses, particularly as they represent different cohorts in society that are often very underrepresented in terms of employment. Ireland has the worst employment rate in Europe for people with disabilities. It is 20% below the EU average, which is quite shocking. We need to do everything we can in respect of the participation of the Traveller community and other groups in education and in employment. What strikes me are the structural inequalities that were mentioned in the context of poverty in society. These inequalities affect all the people that the witnesses represent. Transport accessibility and education access are major issues. This committee has had several discussions on apprenticeships with different representative groups. Two of the key issues that arise tend to be promotion of apprenticeships and people seeing the value of apprenticeships versus other educational qualifications. This has been touched on, but is there anything the witnesses would like to add regarding promotion and supports and how we, as public representatives, can help? It was really great to hear about the grant that is available for the Traveller community to avail of. There is an issue around financial supports in general in the context of wages for apprentices, which the trade union movement has also highlighted.
I have a question for the AONTAS representatives. The success of the social value procurement policy was mentioned. Will they on that and tell us how well it has worked in the North?
Ms Dearbháil Lawless:
Class bias is a huge and ongoing issue when it comes to the promotion of apprenticeships and bringing people into further education more generally. There is still a perception of people who work in the crafts we support in the context of what kind of people apprentices are. The country needs to address this bias. Internationally, we have seen massive state support in countries like Malta and Germany to address this parity of esteem. They make sure that people in further education or vocational education are given just as much respect and support as those who undertake university degrees. If more was done here on this we would see a big improvement. One of the issues at the moment is that a person could undertake a four-year apprenticeship and only come out with a level 6 qualification. That is quite disrespectful to someone who has taken four years to study on a quite intensive programme. AONTAS would recommend moving that to a level 7. We could also look at specialised areas where there would be specific programmes post apprenticeship to have a master or a specialist who maybe goes on to teach other apprentices or is just a specialist in the area. Having that change could bring a shift in mindset. It would also be helpful if there was more support from Government in talking about apprenticeships and having more apprenticeships in the different Departments. The way they are spoken about could make a big difference.
Regarding the social value, the procurement policy is working very well. There is a 10% section on the scoring for anybody who is going to apply for a public tender. That can be graded on things like gender, social class and different areas in which people are facing discrimination. It is about making sure that there are relevant social impact considerations, such as climate change measures, for example. We are very lucky to be in a wealthy country. If that money was very carefully spent while we considered the social impact on our budgets and on the private and public providers we support, it could make a big change. We have a lot to learn from the North.
Ms Bridget Kelly:
The Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme does a lot of promotional work with members of the community, encouraging them to take on apprenticeships. We do this with two outreach officers who go out into the community and do a lot of workshops. We attend education and ETB events. We recently attended the World Skills event, so we do a lot of work in this regard. We also do much work with our local Traveller representative organisations, of which there are 32 across the country. We deliver a lot of workshops there. The local representative organisation would bring in a group of young Travellers and we talk to them. Pat Stokes and Martin Ward go in and give their talks to the group. This is about Traveller men being in that space with young Traveller men. We also have Traveller women giving talks.
Again, there is a lot of work happening around promoting the Traveller apprenticeship and incentivisation programme, on the apprenticeship side. In relation to our bursary, we do a lot of work encouraging Traveller apprenticeships. If they do take on an apprenticeship, we encourage them to apply for a grant. Obviously, they have to meet our criteria to qualify for the grant. Applying is a big piece of work. Again, there is room for improvement regarding the promotional side. It would be good if we were in more schools and colleges. We are doing a lot of that work, in particular in the gap between fifth and sixth year in secondary school, which is where we see some members of the Traveller community drop out. We try to encourage them to stay on and do apprenticeships. We go into the schools but we need to be in more schools, and we appeal to anyone from any school who is tuned in to reach out to us. We would be willing to go into the schools to talk to them about the apprenticeships and to promote our programme to members of the Traveller community.
Mr. Adrian Stewart:
A theme that has come up today is employers. The State can play a big part in that. The social value within Government contracts has been mentioned. There could be more focus on that around apprenticeships. Another aspect of that is in Article 20. If an organisation is employing at least 30% of a marginalised group, which would include Travellers and people with disabilities, it would get preference for Government contracts on that basis. That is a vehicle by which apprenticeships could grow and develop. Overall, with employers we probably need to look at some sort of strategy with targets for various groups. That would involve all of what we discussed today and maybe the promotional aspect we talked about as well.
Ms Bridget Kelly:
Mr. Stewart made a key point relating to employers. I talked earlier about the employment and enterprise strategy for Travellers, and that comes under the NTRIS. There are other employment strategies where Travellers also need to be mentioned regarding apprenticeships. It is important to make that point. In relation to employer grants, as I said, we have a bursary of €2,000, there is a gender balance bursary for employers of €2,666 and the National Apprenticeship Office also has a bursary of €2,000. There are a lot of incentives and bursaries available to encourage employers to take on Traveller apprentices and people from disadvantaged backgrounds. Again, it is about people having that information and being informed about it. Some employers are informed about it but in some cases they are not applying.
Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:
We were talking about different stakeholders. We have spoken before at different times about the lack of career guidance, particularly in special education schools. Even among teachers and families, there may not be awareness of apprenticeships and the value of apprenticeships in supporting disabled students to transition into those career pathways. When we are looking at practicalities, organisations like ours see the real value in being able to have pre-apprenticeships to bridge the gap, even before progressing to an apprenticeship, for people who are quite distanced from the labour market. Again, the cost of disability, which we have discussed so many times before, needs to be addressed in tandem for real change to happen.
Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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I read the submission from Ms Kelly. It states that in the national skills strategy there is no recognition of the distinct needs of Travellers or targeted actions. If we look at where the funding is coming from, it is from the Dormant Accounts Fund. That is unsustainable. Should the new strategy plan be more about equality to ensure these initiatives are not siloed, as Ms Kelly said, in one section? Should Travellers be brought into all sections of the strategy. The same applies to people with disabilities whose lived experience should also be brought in to the strategy plan.
Career guidance has come up previously. Most career guidance counsellors say they did not know apprenticeships were out there. It was all about college. That is definitely something that should be brought in. I was suggesting tasters, like taster Thursdays, where providers are brought into schools. Would witnesses like to see more inclusivity in the new strategy plan? If the Government was going about this more inclusively, it would throw that out to others?
Ms Bridget Kelly:
I agree. Travellers need to be included in that. They cannot be siloed. It is very important that there is equality for Travellers along with other disadvantaged groups. It is important they are included in that. As the Deputy knows, with the Dormant Accounts Fund, we are entering into our third year of the pilot programme. There is a high need and demand. The communities are engaging in the programme. It is important that our programme is mainstreamed but it needs permanent funding. There is an evaluation of our programme under way. I hope that will determine the funding. I acknowledge and thank the Department of further and higher education and the Dormant Accounts Fund for funding us to date. Hopefully, they will continue to fund us into mainstream. I acknowledge all the work they have been doing behind the scenes, in particular, the apprenticeship assistant principal officer, David Clougher, and Pádraig and Sally as well, for all their support. It needs to move from being funded by the Dormant Accounts Fund and from being a pilot programme to being funded mainstream.
Mr. Conor Thompson:
I thank the Deputy for the question around uptake and knowledge and awareness of apprentices. At AONTAS, we are very linked in with networks across Europe and we are the co-ordinator for the new European agenda for adult learning. We are always gathering examples from colleagues. One very successful programme we are aware of, and which we can share details on, is the Welsh junior apprenticeship programme for years 10 and 11, which is for those aged between 14 and 16 years. They are really getting in at an early age there, especially for young people who are perhaps being failed by education or, for whatever reason, are not having a good experience. They are getting that early on. That speaks to that wider point around parity of esteem between further education and training and higher education and that equality of condition for learners in either further education or higher education. It also gets to the point Ms McDonnell made that supports for disabled learners in both further and higher education should be equal.
Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:
There absolutely is a need for honed and targeted supports if we are to make a change in the employment rate for people with disabilities. I am sure none of us want to be here in a few years' time still saying we have the lowest employment rate for disabled people in Europe. This is timely in that the rehabilitative training review has been completed and we are waiting on the outcome of a specialist training review. There are also wonderful opportunities to look at how apprenticeships are going to be a bridge and transition. There are good opportunities for some joined-up thinking and looking at how home supports and services, specifically to disabled people, can make a real change around employment.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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Ms Kelly referred to the Department-led evaluation of the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme. I presume that is primarily being led by the Irish Traveller Movement and that its feedback is instrumental in that. Is Ms Kelly hopeful? The Department says the evaluation will be published by the end of the year. I am hoping that is on track. What improvements would Ms Kelly like to see?
Ms Kelly has said there should be more sustainable funding, that they cannot be reliant on something like the Dormant Accounts Fund which is not sustainable. For example, would Ms Kelly like to see the bursaries increased? Is €3,000 sufficient?
In relation to both Travellers and disabled people, they identified the need for pre-apprenticeship training. That is important but it is often oversubscribed. As for the recommendation to increase the number of places in pre-apprenticeship programmes, I presume those are delivered through the PLCs. How is that delivered? What financial supports are available to people who do that? You are not undertaking an apprenticeship with an employer at that stage, are you? Is it a grant, such as the SUSI grant, or is it, if you are on a payment, that you maintain your payment?
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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Is there definitely a need for more?
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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Are they one-year courses or for two years?
Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:
I thank the Senator, on behalf of ourselves and the National Learning Network. The Senator will be aware we are a specialist training provider with the 16 education and training boards. At present, we are exploring with the ETBs how that might look for the National Learning Network, which is already working with ETBs as a specialist training provider.
Ms Bridget Kelly:
In relation to the question around the TAIP evaluation, we have been involved from the start to the end. It is just that they are currently reviewing what we have sent over. As I said, hopefully, by the end of this year, the evaluation will be completed.
What we would say is that as part of that, even though there is a €3,000 bursary, we would like to see an increase of the bursaries. I do not know if the evaluation will show that, but that is something.
For us, the main priority is to have the programme move from pilot into mainstream.
As I said, we have a target in place. We have set a target of between 80 and 85 for grants this year. Currently, we are at 66 and we have two months to go. We have achieved our target. Last year we had, say, 55 grants and this year, we are at 66 at the moment. We are reaching our target every year.
For us, key recommendations include that the programme moves from pilot to mainstream, that there is a need for more access to apprenticeship courses for Travellers and Travellers need to be prioritised when it comes to apprenticeships. In some areas, there is low uptake. That needs to be worked on as well.
The bursaries are a huge support to members of the Traveller community in regards to their apprenticeships. It is key that they remain ongoing. That is what we hope will come out of the evaluation.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Harmon wanted to come in again.
Laura Harmon (Labour)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach. What struck me is how transformative is all the work the witnesses are doing for society in general in giving people opportunities to realise their potential and in workforce planning, as well as in respect of urgently needed key worker skill sets we are lacking in society and in respect of people who may not have had a first chance and who want to have a second chance at education or to follow their dreams. I wanted to say how important it is.
We have the recent Government strategy for disabled people. I was at its launch. It has been welcomed cautiously by many groups but certainly it cannot sit on a shelf. It proposes to address many of the structural inequality issues for disabled people. Will the witnesses comment on that strategy or will they elaborate on the universal design piece and how that can be improved in terms of disabled people themselves shaping the programmes?
Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:
We have seen that a lot of organisations in the tertiary education sector have adopted the altitude charter, which is all providers coming together and looking at how we can consider the physical environment, digital environment, student supports and our teaching and learning practices. That is really positive. It is positive for both disabled students and all students. That is to be welcomed.
In relation to the strategy as the Senator was talking about it, I know I have said it again but it keeps coming back to the cost of disability being something that needs to be addressed in tandem so that any of the aspirations within a strategy can be realised, particularly as we are here today talking about employment. Across all parties, we keep coming back to cost as being one of the barriers.
Mr. Adrian Stewart:
On the strategy, we definitely welcome the strategy. Around employment, in particular, there is probably a lack of clear targets within the strategy. It is certainly supporting the whole element of people with disabilities moving into employment but in the absence of the comprehensive employment studies up to 2025, that is lacking within the strategy.
Ms Rossa Gilsenan:
Overall, we need employers to take some responsibility for the problem. We have hundreds of amazing Travellers across the country who are interested, who want to do apprenticeships, who want opportunities and who want to be employed. The opportunities, however, are not there for them a lot of time. I talk to them every week. They often have disheartening experiences applying repeatedly and trying all of these options. Then employers will say that they cannot get workers when we have some amazing Travellers who would be fantastic apprentices. Travellers succeed in apprenticeships. They do really well. There are amazing people full of potential. We need employers to take some responsibility for the problem and work with us in our programme and work with young Travellers who need the opportunities.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Gilsenan. Unless any of the other committee members wish to come in, I am happy to open the floor to our witnesses to allow them a few moments to recap if there is anything that they feel they would like to emphasis or if there is anything further they would like us to be aware of before we conclude this portion of the meeting.
Ms Bridget Kelly:
Part of the work we have been doing with the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme involves the employment recruitment and retention training we have been doing with businesses in the community. That was another part of the work we have been doing while trying to target employers to take on Traveller apprentices and give them a better understanding in regards to Traveller culture, where Travellers are coming from, and what measures they need to put in place to be more inclusive and to take on Traveller apprentices. We delivered two workshops this year with over 80 employers involved. IBEC also has been very supportive in that regard.
So that the committee will be aware, we also delivered an introductory Traveller cultural awareness training session to staff members of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science online. We had 46 staff. It consisted of a two-hour session online. I reckon they would have waited on another two hours. It was engaging and positive. The Department itself was impressed.
I wanted to acknowledge the work that our team has been doing in that regard. This training, especially the Traveller cultural awareness training, is key for employers to get a better understanding of where Travellers are coming from, their experiences in life and what they need to do, as I said, to be better employers.
We have been doing a lot of work with TU Dublin and the Technological University of the Shannon, TUS, in regard to their access to apprenticeship courses. We have seen as well that, as Ms Gilsenan said earlier, there is high demand for these access to apprenticeship courses. If there are 16 places in an access to apprenticeship course, you could only have two or three Travellers within that. They are putting on access to apprenticeship courses but not enough Travellers are being taken on within those. There is not enough access to apprenticeship courses happening across the country. We need to see more access to apprenticeship courses, that is, pre-apprenticeship courses, happening across the country for Travellers and for people from disadvantaged backgrounds. I will leave it there.
Ms Dearbháil Lawless:
Three key changes we recommend are to enhance the financial support, focus on supporting people and communities without social capital and connections needed to find an employer, and delegate more power to ETBs to design, validate and adapt programmes locally.
As for a quick fix, that enhanced financial support piece could make a significant difference. We propose a 55.1% uplift to match inflation since 2002. The estimated cost there is €9.71 million annually.
The long-term change is to pilot that delegation of powers to the ETBs. We feel that would create parity of esteem. If we are going to be working towards a really integrated tertiary model, that will never work unless we actually respect the ETBs, allow them to do what they do best and validate their own programmes.
There is another model that I will take the opportunity to mention, namely, community education. This is another area within adult education across vocational education and training, VET, and is a key part of our social contract in this country. The profile of learners in those centres is the most diverse that one will see in any area of education. Community education is in every town and village across the country and includes local community centres, men's and women's sheds groups and so on. The whole focus of those programmes is social impact. Everything they do is about creating social change and yet they are one of the most underfunded areas within the sector. If we use that as a key first step we will see a significant impact across apprenticeships and all other areas of education. I would really like the committee to organise a session on this model. We would be more than happy to help the committee with its work and I thank members for their time and attention.
Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:
By way of recapping, we recognise that it is not any one thing that will make a difference in terms of increasing the employment of disabled people, whether in apprenticeships or the general labour market. As Mr. Stewart pointed out, within the national human rights strategy for disabled people there is a need for targets in relation to employment. As we all know, if there are measurements in place, we need to work to them. Also mentioned today was the importance of social value clauses, including Article 20, so that there are other mechanisms in place that can provide support in employing more disabled people.
It is important that we consider those who are furthest behind first. We still need targeted supports and while the National Learning Network is very ambitious in relation to all of the provisions of the UNCRPD and in respect of universal design, we recognise that targeted supports are still needed for disabled people and would welcome more opportunities to be involved in the design, development and delivery of pre-apprenticeships with disabled people being there with their voice as well. Another issue raised in our opening statement is the need for greater awareness of grants and supports. It is important that we remember the employer lens and have a greater awareness of what employers need. It is also important, as Ms Kelly said so well, to have role models. We need a greater awareness of disabled people and a showcasing of the untapped talent pool of disabled people and other marginalised groups in Ireland.
I will end by saying that the cost of disability is going to be the biggest barrier to disabled people moving forward and it must be addressed in tandem with everything else if we are to increase employment rates. We hear the phrase, "nothing about us without is" all of the time. Co-production is essential all the way for anything that is being designed and for any issues in relation to disability. Disabled people must be at the table sharing their lived experience and making real change. I thank members for their time.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Thank you very much to all of our witnesses. It has been a really informative session. We greatly appreciate your time in preparing your statements and your engagement with us today. We will suspend briefly to allow our witnesses to depart and then we will meet in private session. Is that agreed? Agreed.