Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 12 November 2025
Committee on Disability Matters
Advancing in Work for Persons with Disabilities: Discussion
2:00 am
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Unfortunately, I am obliged by another commitment to be absent from today's meeting. I propose that Deputy Ó Murchú takes the chair in my absence. Is that agreed? Agreed. Once again, my apologies but I have to go.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies have been received from Senators Bradley, Murphy O'Mahony and Harmon. The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss advancing in work for persons with disabilities. On behalf of the committee I extend a warm welcome to Mr. Eddie Hennessy, entrepreneur; Mr. Haydn Hammersley, social policy co-ordinator, European Disability Forum; and Mr. Guillame Jacquinot, advocacy and campaigns manager, The Wheel.
Before we begin, I draw attention to the issue of privilege and some housekeeping matters. All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction. The evidence of witnesses physically present or those who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House and in this regard I ask members partaking via MS Teams to confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making their contribution to the meeting.
A wide range of issues will be the subject of discussion today. If necessary, further and more detailed information on certain issues raised can be sent to the clerk to the committee for circulation to members. I call Mr. Hennessy to make his opening statement.
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the opportunity to speak today. I was a disabled entrepreneur. I built my own business while living with the long-term effects of a major stroke and spent many years highlighting the potential of disabled people in self-employment.
After my stroke, I had to relearn rhythm, language and movement and I had to cope with the barriers in society that did not make space for my aphasia or my confusion. That experience taught me that recovery and creativity come from the same place - from finding new pathways when the old ones close but it also showed just how hard it is to build a career or a business in Ireland when the system simply is not built for it. For years, I worked as a disabled entrepreneur, proving it could be done but eventually the systemic barriers and high cost of disability made it impossible and took a toll on my health. Every small success came with new forms, new restrictions and new risks of losing essential supports. That is not entrepreneurship; that is survival under pressure.
Earlier this year, I published a report on disabled entrepreneurship in Ireland, based on freedom of information evidence and international comparisons. The findings were clear: no Department or agency takes responsibility for supporting disabled entrepreneurs. Schemes under the Departments of Social Protection, enterprise, and education do not join up. Disabled founders face complex and inconsistent rules on income supports, grants and taxation and no national data is being gathered. There is no measurement, no tracking and, therefore, no accountability. In recent correspondence, the Department of Children, Disability and Equality acknowledged my reports, Inclusion for Disabled Entrepreneurs and Parliamentary Brief: Disabled Entrepreneurs in Ireland. It was confirmed that the new National Human Rights Strategy for Disabled People 2025–2030 includes a specific commitment under priority action 5.6: "Promote inclusion and accessibility in entrepreneurship through the Local Enterprise Offices, including adapting content and method of delivery in consultation with Disabled Persons’ Organisations, and standardised training to meet the needs of clients with a disability."
The Department said this will be led by the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment, with the Department of Social Protection coleading the employment pillar to reflect the link between income supports and employment. Both Departments also acknowledged and referenced this same commitment in response to my report. I welcome these as positive steps, but they still fall short of what is needed. Adapting local enterprise office training is not the same as developing targeted supports or a joined-up framework.
The strategy mentions collaboration, but it does not assign clear ownership or dedicated funding. Without that, the same gaps will persist, just under a new title. I want to ask the committee the following question: if no Department or agency is clearly responsible for supporting disabled entrepreneurs, how will these commitments ever translate into real outcomes? To move forward, we need more than aspirations; we need implementation with accountability. That means a lead Department or agency with authority to co-ordinate policies, funding and delivery, a national strategy for disabled entrepreneurs with measurable targets; flexible income and grant supports so that people can test their business ideas without the risk of losing benefits, and accessible mentoring and training shaped by people with lived experience.
Other countries have done this. In the United Kingdom, the Lilac Review is a ten-year, government-backed plan codesigned with disabled entrepreneurs. It sets out measurable targets, gathers data and treats disabled entrepreneurship as an issue of innovation, not welfare.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There is just about a minute to go, okay?
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
In Chile, the national disability agency works directly with the economic development agency to deliver targeted grants, mentoring and access to procurement - a simple and effective model Ireland could adapt. Both examples show what happens when the government takes ownership - progress follows. Here, in Ireland, the State already recognises the cost of disability for employees through the wage subsidy scheme yet when a disabled person becomes self-employed, there is no equivalent support even though the same disability affects productivity and income. So my questions to the committee are: why does the State recognise the cost of disability for employees but ignore it for entrepreneurs? Will the committee push for an equivalent support scheme for disabled entrepreneurs who are people who create their own jobs and contribute to the economy despite systemic barriers?
Too often, disability policy focuses on care instead of capability but many of us are capable, ambitious and creative; we just need the system to stop getting in our way. This is not about economics; this is about dignity, independence and identity. For many of us, self-employment is not a luxury; it is a realistic way to participate in work. Ireland can and should lead in this area. I am nearly finished. Disabled people are already contributing to the economy by employing others and building solutions, but most of them are doing it despite the system, not because of it.
I appreciate the Chair and Members' time for inclusion. My hope is that this committee will use its influence to ensure that the commitments under the national human rights strategy translate into defined responsibilities, measurable outcomes and targeted supports.
Without that, this issue will be passed around and quietly forgotten. I thank the committee for listening, and for giving me this opportunity to bring a lived experience to today's discussion.
Mr. Haydn Hammersley:
I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to speak today. I am joining the meeting on behalf of the European Disability Forum, which is the representative body of persons with disabilities to the European Union and the Council of Europe.
In my opening statement, I will talk about the situation that we see in general across the European Union and where Ireland stands with regard to its EU counterparts. According to Eurostat, which is the EU's data collection agency, across the EU, around 50% of persons with disabilities are employed, compared with approximately 76% of people without disabilities. The gap is troubling enough, but it only tells part of the story. What data often fails to capture is the quality of employment available to persons with disabilities.
We know, for example, that persons with disabilities are more likely to be in lower paid roles. A report from the European Institute on Gender Equality revealed that women with disabilities earn just 83% of what women without disabilities earn. Men with disabilities earn just 84% as much as men without disabilities. When you combine this with the increased cost of living associated with having a disability, and the fact that in many EU countries disability allowance is lost or significantly reduced when a person enters the workforce, it is no surprise that, on average, 11% of workers with disabilities in the EU experience in-work poverty.
Securing a job in the first place is often a major hurdle. Stigma and discrimination remain powerful forces. Many employers still believe that hiring a person with disabilities will be costly or reduce productivity, but the evidence tells a different story. A study by the Job Accommodation Network in the United States found that 60% of workplace accommodations cost absolutely nothing, and the average cost when adjustments do need to be paid for and are not entirely free, back in 2019 when the study was conducted, was only around $500 or more or less €490. Moreover, EU legislation empowers member states like Ireland to use state aid to offset these costs and to promote positive actions, such as wage subsidies or preferential tax regimes for inclusive employers. EU-funded research from the European Disability Expertise network shows that these kinds of supportive measures, rather than punitive ones, have the greatest impact on improving employment outcomes for persons with disabilities.
Of course, employment is not just about finding a job. It is also about being able to create work when the right fit is not out there for you. As Mr. Hennessy explained, entrepreneurship and self-employment offer powerful avenues for participating in the labour market. To unlock this potential, we need to ensure that persons with disabilities have easier access to financing and grants to start their own business.
As for what we know specifically about Ireland and the particular challenges persons with disabilities face compared with those in other countries, while Ireland is to be commended on its policies moving away from segregated, sheltered workshops for persons with disabilities, the kind that we still see too regularly in other EU member states, we still see that persons with disabilities lack opportunities to enter the open labour market.
Ireland has one of the biggest disability employment gaps in the whole of Europe, with the average employment rate of persons with disabilities being 38.2 percentage points lower than for persons without disabilities, compared with an EU average of 24 percentage points. In Ireland, the cost of disability also has a significant impact on employment perspectives. For example, the income disregard rate, or the amount that persons with disabilities can earn before they start losing their disability allowance, is just €165 a week, after which people's payments start to reduce. This is a low threshold, particularly given how high the cost of living is in many parts of Ireland compared with other EU member states.
The fact that in Ireland access to certain key benefits such as the medical card, free transport, fuel allowance and social housing are linked to being on disability allowance also make entering the labour market disadvantageous and at times very risky. In certain other member states, access to such benefits is decoupled from employment status. While in Ireland some of these benefits can be retained for a fixed amount of time, the extra daily costs for persons with disabilities do not gradually disappear, meaning persons with disabilities in Ireland who work still experience the stress of that cliff edge of loss of supports, and the negative impact it has on their income. There is therefore understandably much fear around entering the labour market as a person with disabilities in the Irish context.
The European Disability Forum therefore urges the joint committee to consider not only how we can improve access to employment, but how we can elevate its quality, support inclusive hiring practices, empower persons with disabilities to become job creators themselves, and remove the unnecessary risks that persons with disabilities currently face when entering the labour market. The right to work is fundamental and it must be made real for everyone. I thank the committee for its time.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I now call on Guillaume to make his opening statement. He has five minutes and he can correct my mispronunciation.
Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot:
This time it was really good. Thank you. I thank the committee for having me here today. My name is Guillaume Jacquinot, and I am here today speaking on behalf of The Wheel, Ireland's national association of community and voluntary organisations, charities and social enterprises. We have more than 2,600 member organisations, including key stakeholders advocating for disability rights and providing employment support services, such as the Disability Federation of Ireland, Inclusion Ireland, AsIAm, Rehab, the Irish Wheelchair Association and Horizons Cork, among many others. I have worked in the disability sector for over ten years, both here in Ireland and abroad. I hope I can bring this experience to this discussion.
Today's topic is advancing in work for persons with disabilities but, to be honest, this concern feels far away from the reality in a country where so many disabled people struggle to find a job in the first place. As has been mentioned, Ireland has one of the lowest rates of employment for disabled people in the EU at 32.6%, nearly 20% below the EU average of 51.3%. This rate tends to be much lower when it comes to people with intellectual disabilities, psychosocial disabilities and high-support needs. There are still significant barriers to disabled people accessing work in Ireland and many of them were highlighted in the committee's meeting last week. I believe that very similar barriers apply to advancing in work, so I will speak about few of them in my limited time, but I would be happy to expand on others that have been mentioned, such as the cost of disability, in-work poverty and the social benefit trap.
First, the culture needs to change. It needs to change at school, where expectations are low for so many disabled children who do not have access to career guidance because they are not expected to get a job after they leave school. Today's schoolchildren will be tomorrow's workers. We have to remember that. It needs to change in the workplace, where disability is too often misunderstood, feared or made invisible. It leads, for example, to situations where people do not declare their disability or ask for the support they need. It leads to situations where people, after acquiring a disability, do not get adequate reasonable accommodation and therefore have to stop working.
The culture of how our administration works needs to change.
Some processes remain profoundly rooted in the medical model and are sometimes ableist. The Green Paper was a good demonstration of this. However, it is good to note some positive steps, with the review of the wage subsidy schemes and the removal of certain terms like "productivity deficits", for example. The culture needs to change with employers, HR professionals, trade unions, support networks, families and many other groups. We need to have the same ambitions, expectations and respect for everyone regarding accessing work, advancing in work and retaining employment.
Ambition and expectation need to be met with adequate supports for disabled workers and services supporting them. The Irish State has long relied on the community and voluntary sector to respond to crises and fill gaps in public services infrastructure, particularly in the area of disabilities, where approximately two thirds of disability services are provided by the community and voluntary sector. Its work spans advocacy, employment supports and home care, among many other things. However, the lack of adequate funding or full cost recovery for services, as we call it, as well as clear, multi-annual funding among other issues, endangers the sustainability of the sector and the key services it provides. In a recent survey carried out by The Wheel, almost half of the respondents said that with the current level of funding they get, they were unsure they would still be able to provide the same level of services. Approximately a third of respondents told us they were unable to sufficiently recruit and retain staff and volunteers. This impedes the capacity of these services to support jobseekers, employees, employers, initiatives such as WorkAbility, inclusive university courses and the Oireachtas’ own projects. The Oireachtas work learning, OWL, programme made a significant difference for some individuals, but they still represent only a small fraction of disabled people. More of these initiatives are needed all across Ireland.
Finally, these changes in culture will only be made possible if we have ambitious plans and policies to ensure access to work for more disabled people. More disabled people in the labour market, together with adequate support for all employees in the workplace, will lead toward more visibility, consideration and respect, and therefore will provide more opportunities towards career progression and retention. I thank the committee members for their attention.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Gabhaim buochas le Mr. Jacquinot agus leis na finnéithe go léir. I now invite members of the committee to put their questions. When I call on members to speak, they should adhere to the agenda items scheduled for discussion. I will call on members as per the speaking rota, and they will have seven minutes. Please note that includes the witnesses' response. I remind members to say the witness's name before they ask a question, to use plain English and to try to keep questions short. All members will get an opportunity to speak and if there is time, I will call members for a second round. I will not promise how much flexibility I will allow. Tosóimid leis an Teachta Quaide.
Liam Quaide (Cork East, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses for being here today and for setting out such a clear and stark picture on this area of employment and entrepreneurship for disabled people. We have made progress in this country recently in bringing awareness and political focus to some of the disability issues that impact on children but material progress has not yet been made in children's disability issues to anywhere near the level of change required. However, at least some of the issues relating to, for example, additional needs, educational provision and disability services are now out in the open and being acknowledged. That is the first step towards action, and we desperately need urgent action. Those areas remain in crisis.
However, I have a real concern that many disability injustices that affect adults remain very much in the shadows. There is stark failure and neglect, not just in action on many adult disability issues, but even in acknowledging their existence. Our purpose as Oireachtas Members is mainly to try to legislate for change and to hold the Government to account.
Will the witnesses identify two or three key political actions that they believe would make a significant change in the areas of employment and entrepreneurship for disabled people? What would they be?
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
We need flexible supports, not one size fits all. Targeted grants and mentoring will cost little but will change everything. A co-ordinated approach will save money in the long term. If the Government is serious about inclusion, it has to include disabled entrepreneurs. We have been campaigning for it for the past ten years, but the Government forgot about it. We have a commitment of two lines in the national strategy plan. The UK and Chile got their policy frameworks within a year. It has taken us ten years to get a commitment of two lines. That is the difference.
Mr. Haydn Hammersley:
I can only speak on behalf of what we have seen work well in other countries. One that I already mentioned is the decoupling of services from employment status. This is a huge disincentive to employment. It is also something that would really reassure and encourage more people with disabilities to take that step if they are able to enter the labour market. In the European context we have seen the importance of state support for salary subsidies. Covering the cost of reasonable accommodation is also a useful tool, but to be done well it needs to almost fully cover the cost to take away employers' concerns that they will be out of pocket. Covering the cost also needs to be done relatively quickly so employers are not left waiting for the State to help them cover the costs afterwards.
Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot:
I want to echo what Mr. Hammersley said. One of the biggest issues we have when it comes to disabled people is poverty. If we look at the last survey on income and living conditions, we are talking about 32.5% of disabled people at risk of poverty compared with 11.7% of the general population. When it comes to consistent poverty, we are talking about 19% of disabled people compared with 5% of the general population. We all know that disabled people disproportionately face the threat of poverty. For many years, disability organisations have been asking for a cost-of-disability payment. Many once-off measures were removed in the very disappointing budget for 2026. It is estimated that people will be €1,200 worse off compared with last year. It is estimated that, with inflation, the cost of being disabled is between €10,000 and €15,000 per year.
The second thing is the income disregard. I have worked with many colleagues who could not work more than a certain number of hours or accept promotion or a pay increase because of difficulties with social services. We need to increase the income disregard. If we look at budget 2026, the income disregard for carer's allowance has significantly increased, from €675 to €1,000.
However, as Mr. Hammersley mentioned, it is still at €165 for disabled people. This needs to be looked into. As we discussed, more initiatives like WorkAbility to reach out to more people are very important. Afterwards, it is a matter of generating awareness among disabled people and employers that support is available. Although the work and access scheme recently replaced the reasonable accommodation fund, and while disability awareness training is a step in the right direction, I hope the take-up of the scheme will be better than it was before.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Next is an Teachta Keogh, on Teams.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is lovely to hear that the Chair is going to be flexible, as I am sure he expects of other Chairs all the time.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy’s volume is very low.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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My camera and microphone are on.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy is a lot clearer now. We cannot see her, however, but we will continue on.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will pop down to the meeting room in a while.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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All right. Fadhb ar bith. I call an Teachta Healy.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their opening statements and for the benefits of their obvious knowledge, advice and expertise in this area. I commend Mr. Hennessy, in particular, for his courage and commitment, and indeed his determination to succeed in this area.
I want to raise a couple of matters. The representative from The Wheel mentioned young children at school and stated they are the workforce of the future. This area needs attention. Are there specific recommendations for the education system so as to prepare the children effectively for employment in the future?
The funding of charitable and voluntary organisations involved with The Wheel was mentioned. To what extent is funding available? Is there a lack of funding? Has The Wheel a funding target, and to what extent has the current funding not met that target?
On the contribution from the representative of the European Disability Forum, I am wondering about the possible loss of secondary benefits for disabled people who enter employment in other European countries. How exactly does it work?
Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot:
On the question on children with disabilities, the first thing is to have the same level of ambition for all children, with better supports. Many schools still struggle to get the SNA supports they asked for in order to have a sufficient number of hours. There should be better access to career guidance. I heard when working in Inclusion Ireland and when I was in the disability sector that it feels like life stops for so many children once they turn 18 and leave school. This transition from school to the workplace needs to be seriously addressed. Those are my main recommendations. I invite the members to speak to disability organisations. This matter, in itself, could be a conversation for this committee.
On the question on funding, the problem we have is that the funding received by many organisations before the crisis has never been fully recovered. Many organisations still do not have funding at the level that obtained before 2008.
There was a Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, agreement to ensure equal pay between the public sector and the community and voluntary sector. That is going on at the moment. There are a lot of charitable organisations that were not a part of the deal and, therefore, do not get sufficient pay for the staff. Approximately only 30% or 40% of organisations have access to multi-annual funding. Many have to work year by year, which leaves them in instability and causes difficulty in recruitment, because how can you recruit when people do not have long-term visibility?
When I talk about the full cost recovery, some arrangements do not include inflation or compliance costs. Therefore, many of our members tell us that year after year when inflation costs are not met with the same level of funding, they cannot provide the same level of services. That is what we hear from our organisations, and not only in the disability sector. It is a broader conversation we have.
Mr. Haydn Hammersley:
The question was about secondary benefits. In other European countries, it depends. A number of countries allow the retention of secondary benefits and in-cash benefits. Some research was conducted by the European Commission in 2023. Among the member states I see listed are countries such as Cyprus, Finland, Greece and Spain, which have a more flexible approach than, for example, Ireland in allowing people to retain the disability allowance and secondary benefits while in work. There are also countries that are stricter than Ireland where as soon as you earn your first euro, you lose all your cash benefits. As soon as you show that you are able to work, your eligibility for disability allowance disappears. In the three categories, Ireland would be more or less in the middle. At the European Disability Forum, we are always pushing for people to be able to retain all of these benefits while in work, given what Mr. Jacquinot has mentioned about the extra cost of living that comes from having a disability and the fact that disability allowance is mostly intended to be a compensation for these extra costs. That is a quick overview of where Ireland stands compared with the other EU member states and some of the different models that we see.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I apologise, my technology was not working so I popped down to the meeting instead. I thank the witnesses. Their opening statements were fantastic. I will address my question to Mr. Hennessy, if that is okay, but I ask Mr. Jacquinot and Mr. Hammersley to feel free to come in if they want. Mr. Hennessy is very inspiring. To listen to his story is incredible. It is disappointing that we have lost him as an entrepreneur due to systemic barriers. I hope his contribution today can push us in the right direction.
It was stark to hear that 30% of Mr. Hennessy's business expenses were due to the cost of his disability. That is a huge amount when any entrepreneur is trying to stay between the lines and keep the doors open. We have heard that in respect of therapy and assessment, there is now a one-door policy, or there is one on the way, whereby if someone goes to a children's disability network team, CDNT, and is then referred to a child and adolescent mental health service, CAMHS, or the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, they are not going around the houses. It struck me that this is probably what is needed for disabled entrepreneurs. Mr. Hennessy referenced the national human rights and equality strategy and the commitment at paragraph 5.6 to improve employment opportunities for disabled people. It feels to me that this will only succeed if agencies such as the local enterprise offices, LEOs, work seamlessly alongside the Department of Social Protection and the Revenue so that the inconsistent rules on income supports, grants and taxation are not barriers. Does Mr. Hennessy think a one-door policy would help? Are the systemic barriers greater?
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
Not all LEOs are created equal. We need a working group to delve into the issue.
However, the Department and the Minister of State, Deputy Hildegarde Naughton, have said they do not have the resources for it. Professor Thomas Cooney, however, has offered to run a working group voluntarily. That will stem off what is needed.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is great. I thank Mr. Hennessy. Maybe Mr. Jacquinot and Mr. Hammersley wish to come in on that point. It is linked. Both of them brought up the €165 income disregard. Mr. Hammersley spoke about other countries where there is a decoupling from benefits. Do either of them wish to come in on the last question or touch on the income disregard?
Mr. Haydn Hammersley:
I was going to hand the floor to Mr. Jacquinot, but I can go ahead. I am not sure whether I have that much more to say than what I have already said. Ireland definitely could consider going the way other countries have gone with either increasing the income disregard or abolishing it altogether and simply allowing income to be completely compatible with disability allowance. In the countries that allow this, it is true that there tends to be an easier flow into the labour market. It definitely takes away a lot of the anxiety people have. I cannot say it is a complete solution to assisting persons with disabilities to open the labour market, however. Of course, this needs to be done in parallel with an accumulation of many different policies working to incentivise employment, but certainly it is something that helps. When we talk to people with disabilities about the things that prevent them from taking up paid work in the open market, this is typically the issue they speak to us about most commonly. It is certainly the main cause of anxiety among persons with disabilities who would like to work.
Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot:
Maybe Ireland could jump in on some of the things from other countries that I find are good. In France, the country I come from, there is the prestation de compensation du handicap, something to compensate the cost of disability, mainly to get equipment and other things, on top of the allocation aux adultes handicapés, which is the equivalent of the disability allowance. There are similar things in Scotland and England. They are a couple of countries where the compensation is looked after in a specific scheme.
With regard to some of the good things I have seen, Spain is extremely good when it comes to hiring people with higher support needs. It has statutory obligations for public services to hire at least 10% of disabled people, including specific quotas for people with intellectual disabilities who face additional challenges. That is the good thing. As a matter of comparison, in Ireland it has been increased from 4.5% to 6% with the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act 2015, but when you look at numbers in 2023, a total of 110 bodies, or 52%, reported that they already reached the minimum threshold of 6%. That is one thing.
As we are talking about advancing work, it is worth noting that there is no tracking of the levels in which disabled people are working in public services. Often, one of the issues is that disabled people are working in low-level jobs where there is a lack of career advancement and progression. It would be good to have trackers that track the quality of the jobs as well.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses. In the last 30 seconds, does Mr. Hammersley have examples of countries that decouple income supports from employment?
Mr. Haydn Hammersley:
Yes. I can send the full list to the joint committee. I opened up that list a while ago. The Commission's research has a list of countries that includes Bulgaria; Cyprus; Czechia; Germany; Finland; France, under certain conditions, as Mr. Jacquinot mentioned; Croatia; Hungary; Greece; and Spain.
These are all countries that have gone ahead with decoupling income from disability allowance.
Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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I thank Mr. Hennessy, Mr. Hammersley and Mr. Jacquinot, as our guests and for the materials provided in advance from the secretariat and their reports. Coming in at this stage, I will try not to duplicate.
We have a body of work to do. This meeting and last week's meeting have been highly informative for us as we move forward to try to influence the recently publicised strategy. Our input actions for that strategy are due to come forward before the end of the year. As I would see it, it is for us to take these guests' feedback and that of all of the other guests to see what are the missing pieces and factors in the information learned. It may require informing actions or changing actions going forward.
A good starting point, as Mr. Hennessy pointed out, is where there is better practice in other countries and that we can look to them. I have a couple of simple questions. Mr. Hennessy cited Chile, in South America, as one example, and the UK as well. I take on board the point he made about differences in local enterprise offices - good, bad and ugly perhaps. What would be Mr. Hennessy's suggestions, even if he had two or three off the cuff, for the local enterprise offices?
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
I do not know whether the wage subsidy scheme for disabled employees is working, but it would be a brilliant thing for disabled entrepreneurs. I do not understand why the Government recognises disabled employees but not disabled entrepreneurs.
I have one more. We need targeted grants, not one size fits all.
Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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Brilliant. I thank Mr. Hennessy.
That probably links to a related question for Mr. Hammersley. In relation to EU tax regimes, can they be expanded to include entrepreneurs with disabilities as well as the inclusive employers? Would this require an amendment at EU level or is it something that could be done with national discretion? I could be totally off the mark with that but Mr. Hammersley's guidance in relation to that would be helpful.
Mr. Haydn Hammersley:
It is a bit of technical question but it is a good one. I would definitely need to double-check so that I do not give the Deputy any incorrect information. As far as I know, there would be no reason these preferential tax regimes should not be expanded to these forms of employment. I see no reason that would be the case but I can double-check this for the Deputy.
Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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I would be grateful if Mr. Hammersley could, and maybe link in with the secretariat. It is something that would be highly beneficial in moving forward as well as Mr. Hennessy's piece on the local enterprise office.
Mr. Jacquinot said that only 30% to 40% of member organisations of The Wheel are in receipt of multi-annual funding.
That has come up here before with other representatives that we have met. It is absolutely impossible to plan ahead, either from an administrative, but more importantly, from a support perspective. Is it possible to get the information regarding the 60% to 70% that do not? That would be helpful for the committee as well as the witnesses represent such a broad group of organisations.
We have covered the other member states. I am thankful for that. I have asked about entrepreneurship. This is probably for Mr. Hammersley, but I am guessing Mr. Jacquinot may have knowledge from his previous workplace and country of origin. Are there specific policy innovations at European level, such as inclusive procurement practices or diversity charters that Ireland could consider adopting to promote career progression and entrepreneurship among persons with disabilities? Any witness is welcome to address that.
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
We have to start to build by building data. We do not know. If there is no data, there will be no accountability and measurability. We have to start by compiling that. What it comes down to is that no one is accountable for disabled entrepreneurs. The Department of enterprise has the lead on it. There is a big difference between having the lead and accountability. We need accountability.
Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses. It is great to see Mr. Hennessy again. His story does not inspire me; it makes me angry and frustrated. Mr. Hennessy inspires me but his story is one of failure. He has been failed by an ableist State. This is an explicitly ableist Republic. I commend his patience in coming in here and speaking to people, some of whom represent Government parties that have failed you. Not only do they fail you, they are highly resistant to the idea that disabled citizens should have statutory socioeconomic rights. I note the complexities of being an entrepreneur and that distinction between employees and employers. Would he support our calls for disability allowance to be a universal, non-means-tested payment, decoupled completely from income and so on? Similarly, I raise carer's allowance. I do not want to frame disability in the context of caring, but very often, the two are almost inextricably linked.
Is Mr. Hammersley shocked at Ireland's status? We are the only jurisdiction in the European Union where there is no legislation giving socioeconomic rights to disabled citizens. We are the only jurisdiction. The Grundgesetz or the basic law in Germany is 75 years old. We are 75 or 50 years behind Germany in relation to disability rights. We are 30 years behind Britain - England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Is this something that he communicates to the Commission and to the Council of Europe? Are we outliers in the European sense?
Again, I feel so angry when the countries that decouple supports from income are listed out, such as Bulgaria, Hungary, Czechia, Germany and Spain. We should be ashamed of ourselves. We have had organisations such as the National Disability Authority in here and there is no sense of urgency or crisis with them. They think everything is fine. The launch of the national strategy on disability rights to which many of us received no invitation, interestingly, was 78,000 words approximately. The word "equity" appears once. Once. Does Mr. Hennessy have confidence in the Minister of State, Deputy Naughten, after this budget that actually increases poverty for disabled citizens? Also, in relation to some of the service providers and organisations, some of those actively campaigned for a "Yes" vote on the care referendum. In fairness, they were told by the Minister that if they were in receipt of State funding and if they did not canvass for a "Yes" vote they would have to explain themselves. Is there a way of incorporating more disabled persons organisations, DPOs, into that negotiation space? I am sorry for the long question but sometimes I am incensed by what we hear, especially in comparison with our neighbours and partners in Europe. We operate an apartheid system here where disabled citizens are excluded from health, education and the workplace. We have the lowest participation rate in the European Union, at around 30%, why is that?
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Witnesses can obviously answer the question but do not make commentary on someone who is not here to defend himself or herself. Witnesses can talk in generalities in relation to Departments and how they find the system. That is absolutely all right.
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
About DPOs, there was action 5.6 to consult with DPOs. Who are they talking about because I do not know any DPO that specifically caters for disabled entrepreneurs? Who are they talking about? I made hundreds of freedom of information, FOI, requests and not one of the DPOs brought anything out. There are none. Who are they talking to?
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Hammersley looks like he wants to speak.
Mr. Haydn Hammersley:
Yes. Am I shocked about the status or by what we see in Ireland? In a way not, because it has been the case for the past decade so we are relatively used to seeing these statistics from Ireland. What is surprising is that, statistically at least, in many fields Ireland is a bit of a powerhouse in Europe in terms of the economy and average income, for example. It is something that does not seem to be passed on to the disabled community, at least statistically. Maybe this is a bit of a surprise and this is in our advocacy towards the Commission. We always bring up this mismatch between how strong Ireland is, at least on paper, economically and how it is a country that people are flocking to for job opportunities yet there is a significant part of the population that is completely cut out of this. This, perhaps, is what surprises us.
Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot:
Yes, that is very disappointing, by the year 2026.
As Mr. Hammersley touched upon, in a country where we have never had this level of wealth, it is not being passed on to people who need it most. In the budget, there was no mention of homelessness but many mentions of housing. There was an increase in disability services but nothing for disabled people. Many choices are made above us, unfortunately. That was a disappointing budget, for sure.
On the question about disabled people being included in negotiation, that is something that needs to be done by Department. We also have groups of different service providers to make sure the voices of disabled people are heard front and centre. That is how we do things.
Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I thank Mr. Jacquinot for his advocacy and for everything that The Wheel does. I thank Mr. Hammersley for the frankness of his response. I really appreciate that. I thank Mr. Hennessy again for his contribution and his patience. He is a patient man.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I apologise for not being here earlier. I am on the health committee as well so I was there first. I read the opening statements and I thank the witnesses for their presentations.
I will ask one or two things about creating sustainable employment for people with disabilities. If the witnesses were to highlight a single policy issue, what would make employment more sustainable for people with a disability?
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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If Mr. Hennessy was to create a policy, where would he start?
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
From my experience, create a grant that employs someone to do something your disability does not allow you to do.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Perfect, thank you. In terms of creating spaces within business, are there supports that should be put in place to support the business and the person going into employment?
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Some people need to have a support service with them or somebody to help them with their employment. What should the Government look at to make it easier for people with a disability to go into full-time employment? There are many fantastic employers out there who want to work with people with a disability but sometimes there are stumbling blocks. Are there any issues we should be looking at?
Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot:
Flexibility is a very important thing. Speaking from my experience of intellectual disability, we need more flexibility in the recruitment process, more flexibility once people start work, more flexibility at interview and more flexibility in the arrangements for the reasonable accommodation, which the vast majority of the time is cost neutral or very low cost.
We advocated strongly for a reduction in the minimum number of hours required to access the wage subsidy scheme. It went from 21 hours to 15 hours and this is good. We should lower further the number of hours because a lot of families involved in Down Syndrome Ireland and Inclusion Ireland say it is still high for some people. We need to make the whole system more flexible. It is about knowing that a lot of people will not go through employment support services such as Intreo. They rely on services and job coaches. The whole culture of how people are supported and seen as being able to get a job and have a life of their own needs to change. Ireland is good compared to many other countries when it comes to getting away from having a special system, congregated settings and sheltered workshops. However, this transition needs to be met with money and supports. We are one step of the way but there are other steps that need to be taken.
Mr. Haydn Hammersley:
I agree with Mr. Hennessy and Mr. Jacquinot. We should also mention that despite the fact we have many critical comments on the context in Ireland, the fact there is not much of a culture of sheltered workshops is definitely something that is very positive. It shows something quite admirable in the Irish system.
With regard to other policies that can be very useful, sometimes it is a question of being able to make a match between employers and persons with disabilities. There are good practices in some EU member states, such as job fairs where persons with disabilities and employers can go without making any compromise to understand what opportunities are out there. It is often a stress for employers who have a quota to meet to find employees with disabilities who have the skills they need. Job fairs can be quite a good practice and sometimes quite a good solution.
Mr. Jacquinot mentioned mentoring and support in work. This is a system we see more in Scandinavian countries, where there is a lot of emphasis on personal assistance and the right to have a personal assistant, if needed, in the work setting. Sometimes relatively few hours are needed and sometimes it is just a mentor who is needed to give advice to a person on planning their timing at work. Sometimes all that is needed is helping a person to negotiate or discuss things with their line manager. This can also be very helpful.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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That is great. Scandinavian countries and one or two others have been mentioned. Is this the international best practice that Ireland should look towards? Are there any reports coming from there that we should be looking at?
Mr. Haydn Hammersley:
This is a very good question. We are always very careful about saying there is best practice because all countries have something that works less well. With regard to workers' rights in Scandinavia, there is a real culture of collective bargaining but the system is completely different to the Irish one. It might be difficult to transpose it into the Irish context. For example, there is no minimum wage in Scandinavian countries. It is all done on the basis of collective bargaining. There is no quota system for employing persons with disabilities. We would rather say there are some good practices all around Europe and not only in Scandinavia that can be adopted in Ireland. For example, countries such as Malta have a good system of job carving and finding or creating positions in the open labour market for persons with intellectual disabilities. It is something that has had quite a significant impact.
At EU level we have research and publications on this type of good practice. Again, this is something I can share with the joint committee, which can be looked into to see whether measures can be transposed into the Irish context.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Níl fadhb ar bith. People have seen my flexibility. I might not allow it again. We will have more ceisteanna anois. Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe. This has been really useful. On some level, to a degree, the witnesses have already laid out what the issues are. We get the idea. At least people now talk about the fact that there is a cost of disability. Full stop. We just need to have a payment for it.
We are forthright and people understand that if we do not de-couple the disregards for the supports from whatever financial determinations are made, we will force people to stay within the social protection trap. That is an issue. We have all spoken to people who are worried about losing supports, everything from housing to medical supports. We are talking about employment and entrepreneurship and I am fairly sure the witnesses have talked to some in the Department and even the Ministers, although perhaps not in public.
The wage subsidy scheme does not work perfectly at the moment, far from it. The number of employers and employees is down from what it was years ago. Those who employ more than one person, such as the Rehab Group, speak about the increase in the wage subsidy scheme not being delivered to the same degree for those who employ more than one person and some of those significant elements. That is affecting employment routes. While there have been changes, the wage subsidy scheme needs to be looked at. Mr. Hennessy put is succinctly. Disabled entrepreneurs need to fall into the same sort of bracket. Whether it is a task force or something else, we need some facility to look at best practice so that we can provide something that will work for employers, employees and those who want to engage in entrepreneurship. It is as simple as that.
In recent times, we have also dealt with those engaged with WorkAbility and such projects. We know it works. We just need to do it in a better way. We do not want for it work well in one place when some third level institution does it. The State has to take it on. It is as simple as that.
On work and access, Mr. Jacquinot spoke about reasonable accommodation. The system is too difficult. It does not work well enough. If we were to get a level of truth when speaking to a Minister, we would get a notion that it is not working. While changes have been made, we need something that works a hell of a lot better.
The witnesses will have noticed there is no question. They have already stated what works and where we need to go. The committee needs to find a way to make this happen. My question is for Mr. Hennessy. I will ask for commentary afterwards. He said the LEOs do not work from his perspective. The support schemes are not in place. We do not have an equivalent of the wage subsidy scheme. Will Mr. Hennessy explain how he set up his business and how he was affected? I get that we are talking about something that will be different for every person who is in his circumstances.
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
I set up my business. I aimed to recover and I got a camera and developed it into a business. It took a long time. I was not aiming to set up a business but when I did, I realised there were many barriers, not in society but the Government's inability to recognise entrepreneurs was incredible. It was broke to the last year.
I had a reduction in my partial capacity benefit without medical evidence. It took me a year to reverse that decision. Instead of recovering and learning the skill of photography to a higher level, I was fighting the Government. I literally paid the Government for my recovery. I had to take a 33% hit on my income so I could start a business, but I was not making any money. I said I would take the hit for the good of my future but that does not work.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Hennessy had to fight the Government on partial capacity benefit, but there was nothing to deal with the fact that he had extra costs. Will Mr. Hennessy explain the extra costs he has had to deal with?
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
I had to employ someone to carry my gear at certain times and there were other hidden costs that able-bodied photographers did not have to endure. I cannot read or write properly, and I cannot converse properly. That is what is causing most of my hidden costs. I need a person to do the things that my disability will not let me do.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is it, and it has been laid out clearly. People with disabilities will need different supports. That is why it needs an element of flexibility.
I did not leave a lot of time for others to comment. I apologise for that. We will move to a second round of questions. I call Deputy Quaide.
Liam Quaide (Cork East, Social Democrats)
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The financial burden incurred due to living with a disability has been very clearly set out by the witnesses today. We have talked about the cost of disability payment being a key measure to address the challenges that are faced by disabled people in accessing employment, becoming entrepreneurs or progressing within employment. As we know, the cost of disability payment was a very contentious issue leading up to the most recent budget. There was huge frustration and disappointment when that was not implemented, as the witnesses said, particularly when the one-off measures were stripped away.
I have a question for any of the witnesses who wish to comment. What is their sense of the amount the cost of disability payment needs to be to provide adequate support for the additional costs imposed by living with a disability?
Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot:
The cost of disability report released in 2021 talked about a figure of €8,000 to €13,000 or €14,000 for people with moderate to high support needs.
The DFI published something to the effect that with inflation of costs, it would be more like €10,000 to €15,000. As Mr. Hennessy mentioned, it is not one size fits all. A personalised approach to what is needed would be very important. In response to a parliamentary question to the Minister for Social Protection a year ago, there was an estimate with regard to costs in the realm of €700 million to €800 million if all of the recipients of the disability allowance were to get a €50 weekly cost-of-disability payment. I will have to check the figures again. This could be good but once again, I would be in favour of personalised supports according to the needs of people.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Hammersley wish to comment?
Mr. Haydn Hammersley:
No, Mr. Hennessy and Mr. Jacquinot have summarised it perfectly. I also recommend referring to the report by the Disability Federation of Ireland that Mr. Jacquinot mentioned on the cost of disability. Other than this, the two other speakers have summarised it perfectly.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We are getting lot of collegiality.
Liam Quaide (Cork East, Social Democrats)
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Access to employment is a core universal human need and this is a given. We all need to have a sense of achievement, purpose and goal direction in our lives. This is foundational to all of us. The statistics on disability employment and what Mr. Hennessy outlined on entrepreneurship should really shame us all in this country. Related to this is the need not only to access employment but to progress in the workforce, to have career development and to be able to move in our careers. I want to ask the witnesses about this. Will they speak on what they think could be implemented with regard to supporting career development specifically as opposed to purely employment access? I ask them to mention anything about other countries that have a much better record in this regard then Ireland.
Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot:
One of the important things is to track the quality of jobs and not only tracking the employment. If we want to focus on career progression we need to track. I was touching on this idea when I said that telling us 6% are employed does not tell us what people are doing. This would be important.
When it comes to career progression and advancement we need to have the same flexibility for reasonable accommodation as we have with regard to accessing the labour market. Flexible adaptations are very important. If someone is not able to work more than a certain number of hours because something in life has happened, and disabilities are acquired, there should be enough flexibility to enable people not only to retain employment but to progress. Spain has a very good record when it comes to job carving, even for people with very high support needs, to see how they can get a job and progress. In many countries people with high support needs are looked at as never being able to work. Perhaps there is a bit of an answer in something like this.
Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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I want to pick up the point Mr. Hennessy mentioned, and I ask him to correct me if I am wrong. Professor Thomas Cooney is volunteering his services because of the great need to inform change and meet needs.
Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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Will Mr. Hennessy provide us with his information and what may be an appropriate way to go about this? I ask Mr. Hennessy to correct me if I am going down the wrong path.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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For information, I believe we have his contact details.
Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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That is great. Perhaps it is something we can discuss at our next planning session and we can move along based on what we are learning. My question about additional supports has already been asked.
That was one piece. I had another question on people who are already in the workforce. I am working through an instance with somebody who has an issue with their reasonable accommodation. There is a bit of pushback to their return to work despite the fact they are extremely willing. From a union perspective, what guidance, supports, briefing, training and so on are available? I put my hand up as I am totally ignorant in this regard. What guidance and supports are there from the different unions, where people with disabilities may be members, to really have strong advocacy for them if a wall is put up in terms of reasonable accommodation?
Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot:
That is definitely something I would check with the Disability Federation of Ireland, Inclusion Ireland and people who could give more guidance. From a trade union perspective, I could not speak on their behalf as to how they address issues when they arise.
There were a couple of questions about looking for other good practices across Europe and internationally. One thing I wanted to recommend is the Zero Project conference. It is a huge conference that takes place in Vienna every year. Lately, it has been looking at independent living, education and employment. It is a great database if people are looking for good practices, including partnership with the State. I would recommend having a look at that.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for being late, but I was listening to the debate earlier. Some of my questions have already been asked. With regard to best practice, the conference in Vienna was mentioned. Are there good practices in other European countries that are working well and could be implemented here? A couple of years ago, I chaired the Joint Committee on Autism. We went over to meet the Scottish health minister and health officials in Edinburgh with regard to best practice there because we felt we could learn from the practices they had. We also looked at a number of other countries. Are there highlights in other countries that the witnesses think could be replicated here that would make a major difference?
With regard to the unions and employment, have all unions and representative organisations a disability officer or advocate to represent persons with a disability? The Civil Service target is 6%. We spoke about this last week. Do we need to lead from the top, as an organisation and as a Government, with regard to employment figures? Should that be increased? What figure do the witnesses feel it should be?
It was mentioned that there has been significant investment, particularly in the budget for 2026, which will see an additional €600 million invested in disability services. Is it enough?
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
I speak for disabled entrepreneurs. You do not have to look further afield because there is a system here, namely, the WSS. It just needs to be implemented for disabled entrepreneurs. The system works or does not work with employees, but it will work for entrepreneurs. One of the reasons it does not work with employees is that there are some good people out there and they do not want to take the money off the Government.
They do not want to be seen to be employing a disabled person to get grants. I know a couple of gym owners and they do not want it because they have morals.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. Hammersley looking to come in?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I ask Mr. Hammersley what, from a European point of view, could be implemented here.
Mr. Haydn Hammersley:
There also are good practices at the level of different employers. The Deputy mentioned autism, for example, and the opportunity to have job mentoring or mentoring in the workplace is one of the key things for employees on the spectrum. Some companies allow for an alternative to the interview process. These things are done on the level of the employer but in terms of policy to facilitate these, we would say that if you expect an employer to pay for reasonable accommodation or a mentor, then you will have a difficult time. Unfortunately, we cannot rely on the goodwill of employers alone. There needs to always be a possibility for subsidies and state aid. That is crucial. It is good to encourage good practices but to make them work, it needs to be made easy for the employer.
I want to come back on a question from earlier because I said I would check. There was a question about whether there is any reason under EU legislation that subsidies could not be given to entrepreneurs employing persons with disabilities, including themselves. I cannot see in the EU legislation on state aid any reason that would not be allowed. There is no legal reason that could not be done in Ireland from what I see at the moment.
Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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That is good news to my ears, anyway.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Going back to work we did previously, the Trinity centre has an ambassador role in companies that provide job opportunities and experience. That is something I am working on and I would like to see it rolled out to all the universities. We now have 11 universities with PATH 4 courses for children with intellectual disabilities. As Mr. Hammersley said, it is key we have a job coach to work with the company and with the young person. The Department and Government need to fund, say, a job coach in each college to help any person with a disability with job opportunities and to support them while they are in work. I have been making overtures to the Department on that. It is important to support the companies as well as the young person or young adult with a disability. That needs to be funded by the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment.
Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot:
It just brings us back to the conversation on how we go from initiatives to a scaled-up, broader system. From what I could see at European level, Denmark, England, Scotland and Spain were really good at job carving and going from initiatives to broad practices in partnership with the state. There might be something to look at in these countries.
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
From the disabled entrepreneur's perspective, I see loads of mentions of coaching and mentoring but I did not need coaching or mentoring. I needed the pathway to provide my services. I have loads of customers and there are loads of disabled people who are more creative than me. You could not mentor them but we need pathways.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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There could be a dual function of not just mentoring but creating pathways and links to let that person flourish.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Hennessy.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat. The Deputy can see the time and the flexibility that was shown to him.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Acting Chair for that flexibility.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Exactly. I have said what I am about to say many times in the Dáil. It has all been said. Before I come in to continue my contribution, I see Deputy Daly has landed so I will pass over to him. He is on the ball now.
Martin Daly (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise. I was in another committee meeting. I thank everyone for coming in. I also read the briefing papers on employment and people living with disability. I was taken by the statement from Mr. Hennessy about entrepreneurship and living with a disability after a stroke. Mr. Hennessy has probably already told his story in some respects.
Martin Daly (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I noticed that Mr. Hennessy is concerned with having a co-ordinated approach in Government to help people who are entrepreneurs and living with disability. He was concerned that while he got some commitment, he felt it is not focused enough.
Martin Daly (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I was also taken by Mr. Hennessy’s reflection in his statement that there would appear to be supports for people living with disabilities if they are employees, but not in the area of entrepreneurship. He made the really good point that sometimes the only option for someone living with a disability may be to become an entrepreneur or self-employed. How has Mr. Hennessy found this himself? How are things going for him?
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
I had to pack it in because of the cost of disability. I love to be photographing but the cost is too high. The Government does not accommodate for that. Not only does it not accommodate for it but it makes it harder and takes money off of you.
Martin Daly (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Other than the proposals Mr. Hennessy made around the more focused approach by Departments and Government agencies, he also made some other points around supports. They were about having good flexibility around supports, so that if somebody does take a risk and sets up a business they will not end up being penalised and losing their supports.
Martin Daly (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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This probably comes back to the whole idea and concept of the cost of disability payment, which might overcome something like that.
Martin Daly (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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The costs and needs of a disability would be dealt with and this would allow people to get on with working and setting up their own businesses. I am sorry Mr. Hennessy’s experience was so poor. I wish him the best of luck in the future and thank him for answering my questions.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I believe Mr. Hammersley is under time pressure. As I stated earlier, it has all been said at this stage. We have talked about decoupling, disregards and means testing, and the fact that there are not fit-for-purpose schemes as regards work activations for disabled people. We need to make sure the supports are there, the routeways that Deputy Carrigy was talking about, reasonable accommodation and all that.
I ask for the witnesses' comments if anything has been left out at this point. As he is under time pressure, we will start with Mr. Hammersley. Obviously, we were really thankful in relation to the commentary on best practice. I think there is a piece of work that has to be done by the witnesses.
Mr. Haydn Hammersley:
I thank the committee for all the questions and for the discussion. A lot has been clarified. I also thank Mr. Hennessy for his personal story, which has clarified the specific case of entrepreneurship. The only thing I would add is that we need to focus on the quality of employment. We also had a discussion on how to ensure people are not just in low-paid positions but are also able to progress in their careers and climb the career ladder. Offering reasonable accommodation which allows people to work to the best of their abilities is one of the key things in that. Of course, the decoupling of disability allowance from income is key.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Gabhaim buíochas le Mr. Hammersley. Slán agus áth mór.
The witnesses are all very agreeable; that is the only problem.
Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot:
The lack of expectation or low expectation causes lifelong lasting damage to people. One person I worked with at Inclusion Ireland told me how they were told they would never go to college. These are people who are told all their lives that they will not achieve certain things because of who they are and because of their disability. The cultural change is really important especially in the context in Ireland where we are moving away from special settings. We are trying to make sure that people are living together and working together in the same community. I will leave the committee with that.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is it agreed that we publish all the opening statements to the committee's website? Agreed. I thank all the witnesses for attending today and for their insightful contributions on inclusion in the workforce and entrepreneurship. I think they really got down to the nub of the matter. There is a huge piece of work that this committee can do. It is about having the right schemes in place. This is about ensuring that disabled people can have the full rights of citizens to allow them to be all that they can be, whether that is running their own business, something Mr. Hennessy should have had the opportunity to do but did not, or the wider issue of people who want to work in the workforce while making sure that it is quality employment.
I remind members of the meeting tomorrow morning at 10 a.m. The meeting now stands adjourned until the public meeting at 9.30 a.m. on 19 November when we will have representatives of the Disability Federation of Ireland and Leap.