Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 11 November 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration
Engagement on Policing Matters: An Garda Síochána
2:00 am
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil lá gnóthach againn, so we will move on as quickly as we can. The purpose of this meeting is to engage with the newly appointment Garda Commissioner, Mr. Justin Kelly, on the topic of policing matters. On behalf of the committee, I congratulate him on his appointment and wish him well in his new role. Along with welcoming the Commissioner, I welcome Ms Shawna Coxon, deputy commissioner overseeing policing operations, Mr. Paul Cleary, acting deputy commissioner, and Ms Siobhán Toale, chief corporate officer.
Before I invite the Commissioner to deliver his opening statement, I want to advise the witnesses of the following in relation to parliamentary privilege. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in a speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with such a direction.
The format of the meeting will be that I will invite the Commissioner to introduce his team and make an opening statement. Following the opening statement I will invite members of the committee, in the order in which they have indicated a wish to contribute, to put questions.
In order to manage the committee's time effectively, I propose that members each have seven minutes in which to engage with witnesses. That is for both questions and answers. Following the first round of engagement, we will see whether there is an opportunity for a second. As always, but particularly today, I ask members to note that the duration of this meeting is limited. Therefore, time limits should be strictly adhered to.
I now invite Commissioner Kelly to make his opening statement. He is very welcome here today.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I am grateful for the invitation to meet the Chair and committee members. I was honoured to have been appointed Garda Commissioner on 1 September this year. As someone who started his career on the beat in Dublin, it is a privilege to lead this great organisation that does incredible work every day to keep people and this nation safe.
The Chair has asked me to speak about my priorities as Commissioner. These include meeting the Government commitment to recruit 5,000 gardaí over the next five years; increasing garda visibility in cities and urban locations based on our successful high-visibility policing initiative in Dublin city centre; providing gardaí with the tools they need to do their jobs safely and effectively, including body cams and, through a trial, tasers; providing reassurance to rural communities; tackling crimes such as anti-social behaviour and drug dealing that impact on local communities, which are usually, but not exclusively, disadvantaged; improving our service to victims, particularly victims of domestic abuse; enhancing our roads policing response to fully play our part in making our roads safer; protecting this country from increasingly sophisticated national security threats; and meeting the significant policing and security obligations during EU Presidency while maintaining day-to-day policing.
As of 31 September 2025, there have been 14,325 gardaí and 3,650 staff. Following a difficult period for recruitment due to the pandemic, An Garda Síochána now has momentum in hiring gardaí. We are making good progress towards the commitment in the programme for Government to hire 5,000 gardaí over the next five years and grow the overall size of the organisation, including the Garda Reserve and Garda staff numbers. There are now 200 more gardaí than this time last year, and our pipeline for growth this year and next is also strong. An additional 190 gardaí will go to stations across the country from Friday of this week. Over 220 garda trainees will enter the college on Monday week. This is our biggest class in ten years. This was possible because of the work we have done to improve the recruitment process and increase capacity in the college. It will bring the overall number of trainees who entered the Garda College in 2025 to 800.
Our resignation level, of 1%, is well below those of other police services and that of the private sector. More gardaí are staying longer, enabling us to retain their skills and experience, and we are even seeing a small number of resigned gardaí re-joining. There were 11,000 applications in the two Garda recruitment competitions held this year. The diversity of applicants in terms of age, gender and ethnicity is positive but there is more work to be done in this area.
We believe that with additional capacity in the Garda College, an operational training centre and continued improvements to the recruitment process, the five-year target can be met. As the Department of justice's Garda recruitment and training capacity group said, it will be challenging but it is achievable. The increasing Garda numbers mean we can increase Garda visibility, with a focus on key urban locations. An Garda Síochána must play its part to ensure people feel safe to work and socialise in our towns and cities.
The public and business community have already seen the benefits of our Dublin city centre high-visibility policing initiative, with increases in detections of anti-social behaviour, up 18%, of drunkenness, up 67%, and of drugs for sale or supply, up 3%. The numbers for many crimes are down. For example, theft from a person is down 28%, robbery from an establishment is down 9%, begging is down 57%, and assaults causing harm are down 17%. We are currently examining where to expand the initiative further in Dublin. We will also be replicating this initiative in our cities and major urban centres around the country. Cork will be next.
It is resource intensive so when we introduce high visibility, it must be sustainable. This is not for a weekend or a particular time of the year; it is all year round.
Crime levels in our rural communities are generally low but that does not mean these areas are immune from crime, especially the fear of crime, particularly among people who may feel isolated and vulnerable. Our anti-burglary operation, Operation Thor, has significantly reduced burglaries, particularly in rural areas that were being targeted by gangs. Residential burglary during the winter, when it traditionally peaks, has fallen by 75% since Operation Thor’s introduction ten years ago. That work is continuing. In addition, under the Department of justice’s rural safety plan, we recently appointed a superintendent as our first rural crime lead. The superintendent will work with a range of farming and rural bodies, as well as the rural crime safety forum, to co-ordinate efforts to prevent and detect crime in rural Ireland.
There has been a significant investment in protective equipment, training and vehicles for gardaí over the last two years, particularly since the Dublin riots of November 2023. This has included: stronger incapacitant spray for all front-line gardaí; safety helmets for all front-line gardaí; the roll-out of body cameras in Dublin, Limerick and Waterford; larger incapacitant spray canisters and round shields for public order units; and the purchase of water cannons. We saw the immense benefit of this investment recently at Citywest. We have also continued to modernise the front-line uniform. This has included the introduction of a baseball cap and, in the coming weeks, new footwear. We are constantly enhancing our mobility device for gardaí to provide them with more information and enforcement tools while they are on patrol. We have never had a larger fleet of vehicles, with investment of over €85 million in fleet since 2020. I am determined to ensure gardaí have the tools, equipment and skills they need to do their job effectively and protect themselves, particularly given the recent rise in abhorrent attacks on gardaí for simply doing their job.
I thank all the gardaí, reserves and staff who every day contribute to keeping people and the nation safe. A great example of this was the professionalism, dedication and bravery demonstrated by gardaí in dealing with the significant and sustained violence against them at the Citywest complex. On those two nights, An Garda Síochána showed how it will not tolerate such thuggery, and our determination to keep people and communities safe from those who seek to undermine our democratic and peaceful society.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I record the thanks of the committee to members of An Garda at all ranks, who provide an invaluable and important service to our communities.
We will open it up. As I said, there are seven minutes for each speaker.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Commissioner for coming in. I truly wish him all the best in his new role. From talking to the rank and file, they have great confidence in him. I definitely look forward to seeing how things will progress over the coming years.
I will start with the high-visibility policing initiative. I am a TD for Louth and east Meath. Considering that both Drogheda and Dundalk, in particular Drogheda, have had their challenges over the past number of years at the level of organised crime, but have also been particularly hit by public disorder offences, theft, retail theft, etc., will the Commissioner have Drogheda and Dundalk as a priority for this initiative? We have seen gardaí on the beat and out on the streets with their policing van. I indicate that we only have one such van at the moment; another one in Dundalk would work miracles as well. It is so effective when we see our gardaí out on the street. That is my first ask.
I remember from the Commissioner's opening statement on his first day his dedication to tackling domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. Will he briefly outline Operation Encompass for us? We now have in excess of 65,000 domestic abuse calls to An Garda Síochána. That was an average of 1,250 every week in 2024 alone. I would like to hear a little more detail on that.
I recently attended a conference, Hidden in Plain Sight, on human trafficking. While Europe has very strong statistics on this, the statistics in Ireland, possibly because it is hidden in plain sight, are a bit lacking.
However, I was struck by the fact these statistics indicate that 8% of all victims of human trafficking are children. There is confusion about human trafficking and immigrant smuggling and the distinction between them. I was truly shocked when I heard that these children are being trafficked by their friends, families or anyone connected with their family, be it as money mules or drug mules. If I remember correctly, the average age for these children being the mule and carrying the drugs is between seven and ten, while they are between the ages of ten and 14, I think, when they actually start dealing. That puts the fear of God into me. We need to be tackling that from An Garda Síochána point of view.
On Garda resources, I welcome the fact gardaí will have additional resources when they have to face these thugs, as we saw in Citywest, or particularly in Drogheda and the horrendous acts of a couple of people there on Hallowe'en night. However, I will focus more on the recruitment stage. I speak to many of the rank and file in County Louth and across counties Meath, Monaghan and Cavan. Their biggest issue is that the pension rights for new recruits are not the same as they were for anyone prior to 2011 or 2012. They believe that was one of the great benefits in recruiting gardaí. Will the Commissioner fight for those pension rights to be restored for gardaí?
There is also the issue of housing. I heard horrific stories during the last crash of gardaí sleeping in their cars as they were not able to find apartments to rent, or they faced financial difficulties. I am now anecdotally hearing of the same issues. We have gardaí who are not able to find a place to live or to rent, are couch surfing or, even worse, in some cases, sleeping in their cars. I am told we also have an issue where new recruits are refusing to do overtime because that would result in them going over the threshold for social housing. That is then a resource issue, if there is not that availability for overtime. Will the Commissioner agree to and push for a special category of housing, when there is a housing development, so that members of An Garda Síochána and other critical front-line staff are allocated houses ahead of everybody?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We will give the Commissioner time to respond. There is a lot there.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I thank the Deputy for the kind wishes. I very much appreciate them. I will take her questions in reverse order.
I am glad to tell the committee we have really turned a corner on resourcing. I outlined some of the figures. Next Monday week will see the biggest number of trainees we have had in ten years. We have done significant work to make our process more efficient. I am sure the Deputy will probably be aware that one of the complaints was how long it took people to get through the system. Many of the people who will start in November only entered the system through the competition in February. Of course, there are lots of checks in our process. We have got to go through extensive vetting and there is a physical test, a drugs test and a medical. We have done a lot of work to streamline all those stages. As I said, we will have around 800 trainees this year, which is very positive. The Government's programme is for 5,000 over five years. Next year, we hope to move that 800 number up, which is up 32% on last year's number. Like I said-----
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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With all due respect, the two questions were about pension rights and housing for An Garda Síochána.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
My apologies. On the housing part, I am absolutely supportive of housing initiatives where perhaps special housing would be provided for members of the emergency services, including ourselves. Mr. Cleary and I have attended various Dublin city task forces around the regeneration of Dublin. That is one of the items on those agendas. Of course, we are very supportive of that.
The Deputy is absolutely correct that the pension position of members entering the organisation now is not as favourable as it was previously.
Of course, these are governmental policies around this. However, we had two competitions this year and 11,000 people put up their hands to join An Garda Síochána. While obviously the pension is not as favourable as it was, there are still 11,000 people who want to come into our organisation.
The Deputy referred to human trafficking and I was at the conference she was at. We have a dedicated human trafficking unit attached to the Garda National Protective Services Bureau. We have spent a lot of time, effort and expense to train people in that. Not only are the people we have working in that area experts here in Ireland, they are also renowned in Europe and even worldwide for their expertise, as shown in some of the operations we have run there. We are running operations from a criminal point of view to arrest and prosecute people. We are also raising awareness. The Deputy may have seen some of the awareness raising we have done at airports. We have days of action. We are particularly trying to target the people higher up in the food chain, the people who are organising this. We have had successful arrests, charges and prosecutions for human trafficking. I agree with everything the Deputy has said and completely share her concerns. It is an absolutely shocking crime and one we take really seriously.
I said earlier that domestic and sexual abuse is a priority for me. In particular I want to focus on our response to victims of domestic violence. I previously spoke about two recent reports by the Garda Inspectorate and by Women's Aid. Both of those reports were quite critical of our response to victims. A considerable percentage of victims were not happy with the response we provided. Two of the first NGOs that I met were Women's Aid and Ruhama. I have discussed this with them. We have a plan of action. Ms Coxon will be leading out on that for me as she is in charge of this area and policing operations. We certainly want to turn the dial for people's experience with us on domestic violence. As the Deputy rightly said, the numbers are absolutely shocking. The number of incidents we are dealing with are really a cause for concern.
It is also really important for me to deal with our own people who are victims of domestic violence and actual perpetrators. Some members of An Garda Síochána have been perpetrators of domestic violence. The Deputy will have seen many prosecutions we have had in recent years. We take that very seriously. Some of our own members have been victims of that and she can only imagine how difficult that can be for a member of An Garda Síochána. Again, that is also very important for me.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Commissioner to hold off on replying to the other questions. I want to let all members in for a first round and then we can come back to the other important questions. I call Deputy Callaghan followed by Deputy Ward.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the Commissioner on his new role. It is great to have him here today and I thank him for coming.
While I am not surprised, I am heartened to see that one of his priorities is providing reassurance to rural communities. I am a TD for Carlow-Kilkenny and come from a rural area. That priority is mirrored across the force with our superintendent in Carlow, Anthony Farrell. The Garda is running a series of community safety forums in seven towns and villages across Carlow. I went to the one in Myshall on Friday. I am going to reflect the concerns of that rural community here today and, in particular, two questions they had.
It is a community group and, like lots of community groups, it is made-up of volunteers. They are the same volunteers who are involved in the GAA and various organisations. I was a coach myself. Those who are involved in the GAA need to get Garda vetting and need further Garda vetting if they want to be involved in the camogie club and badminton club. I was also an SNA and for each further school I needed more Garda vetting. I know a Garda vetting card has been talked about for a long time so that the Garda vetting is attached to the individual rather than to the organisation in which the person is volunteering. Is the Commissioner in favour of that kind of change in the Garda vetting process? It is in the plan and there is a timeline for it. While he may not have this information to hand now, I ask him to outline the extent of Garda resources that would be released if we had this one stream for Garda vetting which might allow those resources to be redirected towards community policing.
Also discussed at that meeting in Myshall was that every local or rural community would love to have a community garda in the Garda station all the time. An alternative to that to ensure that people feel connected to their garda, even if they never need to call An Garda Síochána, would be to know that if they need to call An Garda Síochána, An Garda Síochána will be there for them. The programme for Government contains a commitment to roll out the See Something, Say Something initiative. When I spoke to the community in Myshall, it was something they were very heartened to hear. It is something we would definitely love to see rolled out across Carlow because it would keep that connection there. An Garda Síochána in Carlow is very good at coming to people's aid, but its numbers are stretched. It can only cover what it can cover. That kind of initiative would be useful, particularly for the confidential reporting of antisocial behaviour. People living on their own in a rural community do not really want to be putting their hands up or speaking out. Having that confidential pathway to be able to record antisocial behaviour in the community would be wonderful because everybody knows everybody in a rural community.
Concern was raised about the overgrowth on ditches in the summertime. I understand there is a way around that. The question the community had was about the role An Garda Síochána plays in ensuring road safety in instances like that. Those are the three questions I have from the community in Myshall. I would be very grateful if the Commissioner could help me out with those.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I might deal with the vetting question first. This is an issue of what is known as portability, the ability to get vetted usually for a period of time. In some jurisdictions people get vetted for a period of time and that covers them for whatever organisation or agency they want to work with. Our view on vetting is that at the moment we have a position where vetting is very strong. The whole point of vetting is to ensure that vulnerable people, especially children, are not at risk. That is the point of this type of vetting. However, I am completely alive to the issue of how difficult it is for people when they have to get multiple vettings. I am fully aware of some situations where people get vetting for a church that is attached to a school. They are both beside each other and they get two separate vettings. So, it is something I am certainly going to look at. I have spoken to the team here about the issue of portability. A previous decision was made that we would not do that because of the risk. If we vet somebody for a year, two years or whatever, we give them that vetting certificate. A month later they could be involved in something and so there is obviously a risk in that. Every time someone goes somewhere, they are revetted which gives us an opportunity to look at them again. As the Deputy can imagine, the safest way is with multiple vetting. However, we need to balance the risk with the practicality of all that. It is something that I have decided to look at again.
The Deputy asked how many people that would free up. We have a national vetting bureau and all those systems are highly automated already. To answer the Deputy's question, I do not think it would free up a lot of people. I cannot give her a timeline on it yet because we have not actually started to look at it. In follow-up committee meetings, I can certainly give her an update on the direction we are taking on it if that is helpful.
Rural crime is something I spoke about on my very first day in the organisation. To be very honest, it is something I have to pay particular attention to. I am from Dublin and spent most of my service here in Dublin.
I have spent a lot of my time in specialist units, so outside of rural policing. It is something that I am absolutely cognisant I have to pay attention to. I have already visited some of my rural colleagues and divisions around the country, to get an understanding of what the issues are there. One of the very useful things is the CCTV systems, and any of those requests that have come to me I have approved already.
The Deputy raised an issue with community gardaí and she identified the problem with it for us, which is the competing demands for numbers. Our problem is that everybody wants gardaí, so it is for us to manage those competing demands. In regard to the high visibility policing that was mentioned by the previous Deputy, we intend to roll that out all across the country. This is something we will see in all the urban centres. For example, in the Deputy's area of Carlow, that will be coming there as well. The way I would see this over the coming months and years is all of those town centres, urban centres and cities will have full-time uniform people. We will see yellow jackets there on Friday and Saturday night and during the high peaks. That is what has worked really well for us here in Dublin and it has gone down really well.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It is just that in really rural areas, the CCTV, which was also discussed, is not an option. In a village like Myshall or Kildavin that will not work. There is that See Something, Say Something phone or text line.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
I know it is contained in the programme for Government and that it comes form a rural area, so it is locally designed and we are looking at how to roll it out. I do not have a timeline for the Deputy. I am happy to get more feedback and send it back to the Deputy but it is fairly straightforward. I know how it works, and the Deputy has described it a bit, that it is an opportunity to anonymously provide information and have local gardaí deal with it. It is contained in the programme for Government. It is something we are working towards. It is very successful and has won awards where it began, so the Deputy should stay tuned for that. If she wants more information, I am happy to provide it.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I thank Dr. Coxon.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you. I might come back in on the other issues. Deputy Ward will be next followed by Deputy Brabazon.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I add my genuine best wishes to the Commissioner in his new role and to his team, and I extend them to all of the gardaí out there. The people and communities I represent genuinely want to see gardaí out on the streets and doing the job they are there to do. I wish Mr. Kelly every success in his role. There has been mention of high visibility policing and I want to give some credit here. I always do give credit. I am in Dublin city a fair bit. I work in it so I regularly go for walks around it. I have seen the increase in Garda numbers around Dublin city. It is notable and does make people feel safe, just to see that garda in a yellow jacket on the street. It does make a difference.
What I am calling for, and I will be parochial, is Mr. Kelly mentioned he has a plan to extend that to the suburbs. I will mention a couple of my own areas, for example, Balgaddy, which is under siege as we speak, and I do not say this lightly. I have never had so many residents contact me who are in fear of the intimidation that is going on there. The council has made countless section 15 requests to the Garda in relation to people looking for transfers out of their homes, and it is an ongoing issue.
Previous to that, and it is still ongoing although it is probably simmering rather than being at the height of it, was the feud in Quarryvale where we saw so many houses vandalised, burnt out and shots fired at residents during the day. It cumulated in the death of a young man who was not involved in the feud. I hate saying that I was proved right, but I was speaking at this committee, on the floor of the Dáil and in the media saying that somebody would die if resources were not put in there and that is what happened.
I have a couple of questions related to that. When there is an increase in tensions, violence, intimidation and criminal activity in an area like that, does the Garda have the ability to respond? When a public representative, such as myself, are out - because I felt it was falling on deaf ears with Mr. Kelly's predecessor and the Minister - and on the streets and are calling out, because we know what will happen and what is happening in the area, how is that taken by the Commissioner? Is that something he listens to and he will be able to respond to?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I thank the Deputy for the question. Absolutely, we can respond to it. We would do a number of things, particularly things that are feud-related. Some of the things the Deputy raised I am obviously aware of, as are all of the team.
We would do a few things. The Dublin crime task force is a specially dedicated unit and we can allocate them and move them around. These are young, very dedicated professional gardaí. We can put them in plain clothes or uniform. There are about 50 in that unit and we can also put some supports around it. We move them around to different areas where we have tensions like those mentioned. We can get them in to run short and sharp operations and for anything that is feud-related. Like the Deputy, we are aware from our own intelligence and community gardaí when tensions are rising or boiling. We can allocate additional resources from some of the national units and we do that. Anything where there are feuds and tit-for-tat going on, that is absolutely marked by an increase in our drugs and organised crime operations, searches, arrests and detentions. For any of those feuds we would have a senior investigating officer. They are dedicated and trying to identify who is involved in the feud. They are trying to interdict and seize guns and firearms. It is bread and butter for us to do that.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I will mention the response I receive locally from the Garda. The community gardaí in Ronanstown are absolutely exceptional. Liam Casey and Kevin Byrne who were there previously have moved on and there is a new community sergeant there. They are absolutely brilliant but there is not enough of them. Since 2020, we have seen a 38% reduction in the number of community gardaí in Ronanstown and a 30% reduction in the number of community gardaí in Clondalkin. Is it a priority? I know Mr. Kelly mentioned it in relation to feuds, but in relation to having more community gardaí, is it a priority for him during his term?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
The whole area the Deputy is interested in sits in a division called Dublin metropolitan region, DMR, west. DMR west is one we have a priority around increasing resources to. That stretches from Blanchardstown to Ballyfermot, Ronanstown, Clondalkin and Rathcoole. It is a priority for us to get more resources in there. We are fully aware we are below the numbers we probably should have there. The Deputy will see more people going in there. For us it is around the competing demands and when we can do it. That division, DMR west, is absolutely a priority for us and the Deputy will certainly see more people going in there.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Public representatives get involved, and I am not saying we are anything special because we are not, because when members of the community are not getting the response they think they should from the Garda, they will often contact their public representatives. I have sent emails and, in fairness to Clondalkin, Ronanstown and Lucan stations, I get responses. However, Tallaght Garda station is in my area and I do not get the same level of response from there. It is only new to my area since the change to the boundaries and a small part of my constituency is in that area. Residents there contact me to say they are contacting the station about some of the activities we have been speaking about but not getting a response from the Garda. I then get in touch with the Garda on their behalf and I am not getting a response either. Is there anything that can be done about that?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I will ask Dr. Coxon to look at the issue at that particular station. I apologise if the service is not being provided to the extent it should be. I will ask Dr. Coxon to speak to the chief superintendent or superintendent out there about that.
On the Deputy's specific question about community gardaí, we have 70 full time in that division and that is all they are doing in that division. Obviously, they are stretched around the duties. Our community people work very hard. There are 70 in that division who are full-time community gardaí. I have spoken to Mr. Cleary and Dr. Coxon about the overall resources in that division and it is certainly a priority for us.
I will go back to something I said right at the start about the pipeline for us of new people coming in. Every new batch we get in gives us more to send out on the other side. As long as we keep these numbers coming in the way we are doing at the moment, it will give us great ability to do the high visibility policing and to get more people into some of the rural areas. The other demand around that is, the specialists we put into all of our specialist units - Deputy Butterly spoke about human trafficking - only come from one place - the front line. We are trying to balance everything. It is not easy when we are down several thousand gardaí from where we should be. There is the additional 5,000 gardaí we are working towards. We have 14,400 at the moment and we are trying to raise it to 16,000. When we get to that stage, it will give us scope to do a lot more.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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First, I congratulate Commissioner Kelly on his appointment and I wish him well. It is a new chapter in An Garda Síochána and I wish all members all the very best during his tenure as Commissioner.
It is most welcome that there are more gardaí in the service since last year; we are up by 200. We have approximately 14,000 members and there is high visibility, with efforts to recruit more. Has any research been done into why, with 14,000 members, there is not higher visibility of the numbers we already have as opposed to relying on current and future recruitment? As part of that, has any analysis ever been done of the length of time that rank and file members are spending at their desks? Could the work they are doing be done by additional civil servant support, for example? What specific tasks could be handled by trained civilian staff instead of Garda members?
On the question about civilian members, about a decade ago or so, we brought in a lot of additional civil servants to bolster support for An Garda Síochána. We seem to have gone back to Garda members doing a lot more paperwork under the last Commissioner than they had been doing, and we seem to have a lot of desk-bound gardaí as a result. Is there anything we can do to free them up from that? Constituents of mine in Dublin Bay North and particularly in the areas where there are high levels of recidivism have complained that we do not see enough gardaí out on the beat. I know from dealing with the local superintendents out there that they are doing their best with fairly limited resources. The high-visibility approach was welcomed in the city, but it pushes stuff out and there is a knock-on effect in the suburbs, which we need to get a handle on as well.
On antisocial behaviour, we have seen people under 18 years of age - children - openly muling drugs, intimidating residents, taking over parks, streets and common areas in residential apartment blocks. As Deputy Ward mentioned, section 15 arrests are on the up. It seems people who are the victims of this behaviour are moving on, rather than the perpetrators. Is there anything from a policy point of view that we could do to change that? The victims are entitled to go about their lives free from the risk of being intimidated, assaulted or abused. There is a clear sentiment out there from the public that minors just get away with it. There does not seem to be any sanction against them or, indeed, their parents. What would the Commissioner's honest assessment of that be?
Are any reforms or operational changes needed to ensure that diversion remains an opportunity for a second chance and does not become a revolving door? How is An Garda Síochána engaging with the parents or guardians of persistent youth offenders? I can give examples of incidents in my own area. I know the local superintendent is doing his utmost with the resources he has and the community gardaí are very much engaged, but there do not seem to be sufficient bodies on the ground to deal with this. Even if there was a presence of the Garda reserve in these areas, deployed on a Saturday night, it might just help.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We will allow the Commissioner to answer those questions and if there is time at the end, the Deputy can ask others.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I thank the Deputy. On visibility, we have two systems now, one of which is GardaSAFE, our new communications system, and we have put in place a number of dashboards from that. We can now see better than ever before where our numbers are. We can do all sorts of analysis around front-line responses, times and where people are. One of the pieces of work I have instigated since I took over relates to getting a better understanding of the demand, the numbers we have in different places and how we allocate people. I have started quite an extensive piece of work on that.
I only had a meeting about it yesterday. We also need to do quite a bit of work on the balance between uniformed gardaí, detectives and plainclothes officers.
On the question about desk time, it is not necessarily paperwork. However, there are systems that we require gardaí to input to. For sure, this takes time and takes them away from the front line. However, the reality of 2025 is that we need records of what gardaí are doing and records of any type of incident. We need to understand what they did when they went there and we need to make sure they have done all the various tasks they are supposed to do. Historically, this was some of the stuff we have never been able to track or understand. Where members of the public are not happy with the response they have received, there is no way of tracking that or understanding it in a paper-based system. We have put a lot of work into things like the incident management system. People will say this takes time to input into and of course it does, but this is 2025. We have to have ways of doing that.
On the flipside of that, we have introduced things like mobility devices whereby when the members are actually outside, they are able to do some work outside on them. We continue to add various apps to those devices, which reduces the necessity for paperwork and the necessity for them to come back to the station. Entering an incident on our PULSE system, for example, which is where we record all the incidents, used to involve having to come back to the station and manually input it yourself. Now all the front-line officers have a mobility devic and can ring a dedicated call centre, which is open 24 hours a day. We spent a lot of time training people to input into that. The gardaí ring up, tell them what the incident is and the call centre does all that. It cuts down the time it takes. It is a balance. I am absolutely in agreement with the Deputy. We need them out as much as we can but we have to balance it with some things.
On the Garda staff, who were referenced, we have 3,656 members of Garda staff at the moment. Of our total of just over 18,000, it is a significant cohort. That number has grown hugely in the past number of years. Those members of Garda staff are hugely important to us and have certainly taken a lot of tasks away from us that we now do not have to do on the uniformed side. That is very positive.
The Deputy touched on the reserve. Our reserve numbers are quite low at the moment. That is something we need to increase and it is something we have been talking about. The only reason we have not really moved on that is that all the focus from our HR and recruitment people has been on getting gardaí into Templemore. Now that we have done a lot of work around the processes with that, we can turn to the reserve a bit more.
On the antisocial behaviour issue the Deputy raised, I am so sympathetic to people who are in those situations. I completely get it. I understand and I have obviously heard some of these things. Of course An Garda Síochána has a big part to play in this, but the behaviours of some of these people, and young people in particular, are a whole-of-society issue. There are myriad reasons behind why they behave like that. For our part, the age of criminal responsibility is 12. Above age 12 and below age 18, we are legislated to use the juvenile liaison scheme. Every young person gets an opportunity to go into that. Obviously, the point of it is to stop them going into the criminal justice system. With some of the individuals the Deputy speaks of, the multiple offenders, there is a limit to that. Once you reach a certain threshold under that scheme, you will be prosecuted and go into the courts system. There are things we have done and I might ask Dr. Coxon to touch on some of the things we do around multiple offenders, particularly the joint agency response to crime, JARC. There is a lot more than just us involved in how young people are behaving. Would Dr. Coxon mind talking about JARC, please?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We would appreciate if the deputy commissioner could be as brief as she can.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
I will be very brief. It operates in two places in the country. It is a pilot, run with the University of Limerick, working with academics, Tusla, the HSE, the probation services and NGOs. It is about wraparound services and the initial findings are very positive in terms of trying to stop the cycle of criminality before it gets to the place the Deputy talks about, where it is a significant issue.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There will be time to elaborate.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I congratulate the Commissioner on his new role. Beyond that, I extend my thanks to all members of the force who in recent weeks have shown, as I am sure many do every day, how willing they are to put themselves in harm's way in the care of the State. We really value that.
I have questions on a variety of topics so I will ask them individually. What protocols are in place for when a child goes missing in the State, particularly in the first 24 hours? Are those protocols different if the child is in the care of the State? What is the policy on who decides when a child rescue alert is to be issued?
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
On the protocols in place, people do not need to wait 24 hours. They can report it right away. We assess the risk, so whether someone is in the care of the State would form part of that risk assessment for what needs to be done. It is a level of vulnerability we recognise in the child's situation. I will not get into the details of the whole process, but whether an alert is issued is a risk assessment that is made locally.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I appreciate Dr. Coxon cannot go into the full details, but who makes the risk assessment and whose decision is it whether a child rescue alert is to be issued?
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I might come back to that.
I will talk about device seizures. In recent times, concerns have been raised about delays in how An Garda Síochána handles seized laptops and phones. There were reports of devices remaining unexamined for years, leaving the suspects and victims in prolonged uncertainty. In one recent high-profile case, a laptop seized in 2017 was not examined until 2021. Will the Commissioner provide the current average mean and median times between seizure of a digital device by An Garda Síochána and the commencement of the forensic examination of that device? How many seized electronic devices are awaiting forensic examination? What proportion of those have been waiting longer than 12 months?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
Our Garda National Cyber Crime Bureau deals with the majority of devices we examine, including laptops, tablets and phones. There is a system behind how that is done and how the devices are triaged. There are different lengths of time. Expert forensics is complicated, expert work so we have dedicated people who do it. We have trained them. They have been to Europol. Many have third level qualifications in phone and computer forensics. A third level qualification in University College Dublin has been put in place around this. I do not have the numbers the Deputy is looking for to hand, but we can certainly provide them. What I can say - I do not like to use the word "backlog", because the devices are triaged as they come in - is that the number has reduced significantly in recent years.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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It would be great to get that information.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Commissioner. That would be helpful.
I will move on to a different issue. There was a recent high-profile case of a far-right terror cell, which An Garda Síochána happily intercepted. On the initial communication that went around about that interception, why did the initial Garda communication state the suspects were targeting a minority community without any further clarity? What assessment was done on the impact this would have on communities already facing hostility? Why was there an information vacuum between the arrests and court appearances? What prevented Garda leadership issuing clear updates to affected communities and Civil Service organisations? Why does it appear that the Garda national diversity unit learned of this operation through media reports rather than internal briefings?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
There are a couple of things with this. I want to have some care around this because a couple of people are before the courts on this matter. On communications, I would have to look back at some of the detail the Deputy spoke about, to see in what order our communications went out.
However, in general terms, operations like this are often very dynamic in nature and it is often not straightforward. The full extent is often not fully understood until we do a number of searches, follow-up operations or whatever it may be. Sometimes, even for us, at the start communications are not clear around what is going on with groups or entities. However, I will have to read the exact communications the Deputy spoke about.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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That is fine. I will move on to the deportation flights we have witnessed in recent times. I have no issue at all with the Garda National Immigration Bureau's involvement in those. That is absolutely fine. However, once again on the communications that went out about deportation flights, specifically I would like to understand the operational purpose of sharing photographs of adult deportees boarding a chartered aircraft. How did An Garda Síochána assess whether sharing these images was necessary, proportionate and in the public interest? Will Mr. Kelly outline the approval chain for that process, including who signed off on the images and accompanying text? One image was shared by the Garda Twitter account and other images were shared by the Garda Facebook account. They are of adult deportees being led onto an aeroplane. What was the operational purpose and who signed off?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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As it happens, the Deputy knows he is not allowed to use props, but perhaps he can convey them to the Commissioner after the meeting.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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It was during the recent deportation flight.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I am familiar with the deportation operations we run. Without having seen the images, I can say we put care into not sharing images of people. I have not seen these images and I would have to. Any external communications are dealt with by our communications section. This goes across the board. The relevant unit, drugs and organised crime, immigration, economic crime, human trafficking or whatever unit it is, sends an update to our communications section setting out whatever the operation is and provides supporting documentation, imagery or whatever and our communications section deals with releases of those.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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This one was very different. It shows people being led onto aeroplanes by people wearing jackets with "Garda" on the back. I cannot think of any other administration of justice in the State that would have the same images posted on social media so I would like to understand the protocols, today or the Commissioner might want to share them later.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
If the Deputy can perhaps show some patience with it, I can certainly have a look at it. For anyone who is arrested, whether for deportation, court or whatever it is, our policy is not to expose their faces in images. It is our policy not to do so. I will certainly look into it and we can correspond with the committee.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy can share the images privately.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I wish Commissioner Kelly and his team well. I thank members of An Garda Síochána, especially those in my county, Cork, for the extremely good work they do in their communities.
The Commissioner will be well aware, considering he was at the meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts where I raised it, of the significant issue of the investigation of a senior member of An Garda Síochána of chief superintendent rank staying in a five-star hotel during the last visit of Joe Biden. Since then, an internal investigation has begun. We are now heading into month six of that investigation. What stage is it at?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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That is good. Can the Commissioner provide the committee with any update on what has happened since I asked the question?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I can certainly tell the committee that this matter was referred to our anti-corruption unit. I presume that shows the level of seriousness with which the previous Commissioner took this. This is a fact-finding investigation. We are trying to get to the bottom of it. There were a number-----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Will the Commissioner clarify, for the conclusive report that will be finalised, whether the fact-finding mission has established all the facts?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Ultimately, the question is whether we have we found the source of the possible chief superintendent who stayed at a five-star hotel with his wife.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I must wait until I get the final report. Obviously - and this is no different from many other things - I get interim updates on this. I am well aware of various lines of inquiry and the direction they are going in. However, I am awaiting the final report on this and until I have the final report, it is probably not appropriate for me to give the Deputy an indication of what direction it is going in-----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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That is absolutely appreciated.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I appreciate the fact that we await the final report to be given. Does the Commissioner have a possible date on which the report will be published?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Will it be published to me personally or to the public accounts committee?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Perhaps sending a copy of it to the justice committee would be quite appropriate.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will leave that for the Commissioner to determine.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I wrote to the Commissioner about two months ago regarding the pausing of promotions, considering that the rank was so high within An Garda Síochána and the person under investigation was based in Garda headquarters. Did the Commissioner pause promotions following that call from me, considering that the person could have been promoted to a senior rank of An Garda Síochána?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Was anyone promoted in the past six months since I first asked the question?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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In any competition.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Has any senior chief superintendent been promoted in the past six months?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Were any of those people who were promoted under investigation with this investigation from the anti-corruption unit?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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So, there is a possibility that someone who is under investigation by the anti-corruption unit of An Garda Síochána was promoted.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
What I can say very clearly is that - and this goes across the board with all our promotion processes - there is a clearance process with them. There are a number of steps in the clearance process. If an individual is under investigation, he or she is not promoted. There is a process with that. This-----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I think that clarifies it.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
All of our process at the moment go through that. At the moment, we have a competition under way for chief superintendents. We recently did one for superintendents. We have an assistant commissioner one and we have upcoming deputies one. All of those competitions are the same; there is a clearance process. If Fiosrú, the former GSOC, is involved and if there is an internal or criminal investigation or bullying, harassment or discipline, they are all-----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I think the Commissioner has answered that, to be fair. I will refer to the public accounts committee again. The Department of justice and the Secretary General of the Department of justice appeared before the committee. I asked the Secretary General about this particular investigation and whether the Commissioner provided any report or briefing to the Department of justice. She just did not answer the question. Could the Commissioner perhaps answer it? Has he reported to the Department of justice, to either the Secretary General or the Minister, regarding that anti-corruption investigation that is ongoing since he took over the role of Commissioner?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Okay. Was that formally or informally?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Okay. I cannot speak nor can the Commissioner for the Secretary General. She explicitly told me that no formal report had been finalised to the Department of justice or to her as Secretary General. What the Commissioner is saying, however, is that a formal report was sent to the Department of justice.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The Commissioner is saying that a formal report was given since he began his role as Commissioner in relation to this anti-corruption unit.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Since the Commissioner has begun his tenure, did he speak to the Secretary General of the Department regarding this anti-corruption investigation?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Okay. It has not come across. The Commissioner is saying that in former Commissioner Harris's time, a formal report was given to her regarding that investigation.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Yes. It is a possibility, obviously.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Commissioner and his team for being here today. I will be very parochial and I will give them a great understanding of a country area. I am from a place called Portumna on the banks of the Shannon where we have Offaly on one side and Tipperary on the other. Over on the county bonds in Clare, I have the Killaloe bridge and I also have the bridge in Banagher. The reason I talk about them is because of the M6 and M7. I was glad to hear in some of the responses earlier to my colleague, Deputy Brabazon, mention of CCTV. The reason I ask this is that we have the motorways going up and down and there is a sandwich in the middle. A lot of my constituents in east Galway, north Tipperary, Clare and Offaly come down one road, cross the bridge and then exit up the other way. It is that time of year when it starts again. The nights are getting longer and it is about that rural piece. Where are we with working with the local authorities in this regard? GDPR is always used as the excuse as to why this cannot be done. Although funding may be available, the local authorities will not allow it. Can An Garda Síochána give us a workaround because I know it has been done in other areas? I am not speaking specifically about Portumna bridge. Rather, I am looking to get CCTV cameras installed at specific intersections. Gort is another good one where people are coming up from the Cork and Limerick side.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
We have looked at other opportunities for funding for CCTV. Obviously, we get certain funding for what we are able to do but, generally speaking, this falls on the local authorities. I appreciate that is quite difficult. Certainly, we can commit to looking at a specific ask if the Senator has one. We can perhaps do that after this meeting to see whether there are any opportunities there but we have had challenges in other areas as well. We just have not been able to do it.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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It is a real frustration of mine. There are so many other questions we could ask the Commissioner but this is a frustration of mine because it has been going on since I became a TD back in 2016. I cannot get a workaround as to how I can do this in rural Ireland. I am talking about four bridges. The chief superintendent in my area, Mr. Gerry Roche, and the superintendent, Mr. Ollie Baker, tell me that other than people, they need technology. They are the bits but it is the local authority. We have to find a way where we can use somebody who can hold the data as a part of it. If the local authority is not going to take responsibility to hold the data, there must be some agency that An Garda Síochána has used in the past that it is prepared to share with us in Galway.
I will move on to the next question. I hate to say it but the superintendent in east Galway, Mr. Ollie Baker, says to me that if I can do anything for them in east Galway, it is to get more gardaí. I am not throwing the superintendent under the bus by saying that. I have done the numbers. The number of gardaí in Galway stands at 570. I saw the other day that 20 gardaí went to Cork and two came to Galway. While we are obviously doing things right but at the same time, it is a disproportionate figure when you see 20 gardaí going to Cork. We are exactly the same size of a county geographically and population-wise. In fact, in some areas, we are nearly more rural. Our demands are no different but two gardaí compared with 20 does not make sense.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
This sounds like a conversation I had when I brought together all the chief superintendents around the country last week. The Senator will be glad to know the chief superintendents in her area had these conversations and raised these points. In the context of the competing demands we have, and we heard Deputy Ward talk about his area earlier, the way I see it is that we are doing this in rotation and we will come around to various areas. I set out the beginning of a plan to the chief superintendents as to when they will get more resources into their different areas. Unfortunately, we cannot do everything at the one time. It is just impossible. Obviously, we have a good understanding around the numbers that are traditionally in areas and the rise and fall of those numbers.
I am well aware of the numbers in the Senator's area but I would say that we just need some patience around this. The Senator may say that they have been very patient up to now but because of the serious increase in the numbers we have coming out, it gives us a lot more ability in the coming months and the years ahead.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate Mr. Kelly's answer and thank him but when we are doing the division the next time, when there is 22 to be divided and there are two counties of exactly the same size, then 11 and 11 would be fair. I will leave it at that and move on.
I am very interested in the specialist units, including the drugs specialist unit, the roads policing specialist unit and, one I have a particular interest in, the cybercrime unit. I talk about that in the context of child pornography and how we can protect our children online. I want to compliment that unit. We have a great group in Galway called Think Smart run by Aoife Noone. I know she gets huge support from An Garda Síochána as she tries to bring a standardised message about how parents can keep children safe online. When the Commissioner looks at staffing and that specialism aspect of it, do we have to recruit from way outside to actually have the skill sets? What is that team looking like, if Mr. Kelly does not mind me asking?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
We have a national centre unit based in Walter Scott House here in Dublin. That is the main grouping of experts we have. We also have a number of hubs around the country. The Senator may be familiar with the smaller cybercrime units around the country. The people we have in these include a number of our own people who we have trained up all the way. They started with the Garda. We have also recruited specialists into those areas. We brought them in; they have not begin in the organisation. A real challenge for us is getting people in at some of the salaries we advertise at. Obviously, the skills and expertise these people have are hugely in demand. I know retention is something that is spoken about but retention in this area for sure is a problem and not just for us but in many forces around Europe. Of the people we have in these areas, some of the banks want them and social media companies want them. It is a challenge for us but we have done a lot around working to retain these. I will hand over to Mr. Cleary who previously led the Garda National Cyber Crime Bureau so he will be able to add a bit more context to it.
Mr. Paul Cleary:
Retention is an issue. We have trained 350 members nationally as digital first responders. That gives them some capability, for example, when it comes to finding and securing evidence of child abuse images when they go and do a search. Every division around the country will have digital first responders trained, not to the same level as the cybercrime detectives but to a level that will give them enough to get and hold that evidence and then send it on to the Garda National Cyber Crime Bureau or wherever it needs to go. They have been given a kit to work with to help them in their work. That is going on and we are looking to train more digital first responders. We are learning from the original digital first responders and we will add to and augment the training, capacity and capability they have.
On cybercrime in general, when I went in as the chief in charge of cybercrime, it was at a very low base. However, it has been significantly increased in the past few years, not only in the national centre but in the four regional hubs. All the people in those hubs and in the national centre are trained to masters level and in specialist law enforcement tools. We have also managed to get significant additional equipment, tools and decryption suites, and all that kind of stuff. There is a lot going on in that space, as the Commissioner has said.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will ask the deputy commissioner to elaborate, if we have time towards the end. I thank him for that. I also thank the Senator.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Commissioner for the update on Garda numbers. I am a little bit sceptical in terms of the trajectory and the speed of reaching the trajectory. What is the optimal number that An Garda Síochána is working towards? We hear the programme for Government target of 15,000. We had a similar target five years ago. In fact, we were told we were going to reach it.
The representative organisations that we have had before this committee have cited 17,000 to 18,000 as the optimum number of gardaí. What is Mr. Kelly's optimum number and when does he see that number being reached?
A number of members have referred to what I consider to be a fact, that nothing beats Garda visibility in terms of addressing the causes of crime and the responses to it. In far too many communities the feedback we are receiving is that Garda visibility is nowhere near the levels that we require it to be. As part of Mr. Kelly's response to that, perhaps he will talk about any plans he has in relation to the divisional models that are in place and particularly for the divisional model Deputy Butterly and I share, which is Cavan-Louth-Monaghan and which I very much believe is too unwieldy and too diverse. I know that Garda management within the division are doing a very good job and I commend them on allocating resources in response to events but it is a see-saw in many areas whereby one community benefits and another community would feel under policed.
The three counties I mentioned are Border communities and I argue there is a particular challenge around cross-Border crime. A recent event in my own constituency concerned cattle rustling. This is still a thing and some of the urban members might find that surprising. It is a very stressful and distressing thing to happen to a farmer where the cattle he or she has reared, and which are the lifeline for that family, are stolen in the middle of the night. In the most recent incident, cattle were stolen from County Monaghan and moved directly into County Armagh. The result, according to my constituent, is that there are two police forces both of which are happy to place the onus on the other. Clearly this is another argument for a united Ireland. In the meantime, are there plans to improve co-operation and co-ordination between the PSNI and the Garda in instances like that?
Will the witnesses touch on the operational implications of Ireland holding the EU Presidency next year? What resources does An Garda Síochána intend to allocate? How big of a policing operation will it be? Do the witnesses have any fears, as I do, that other elements of policing and particularly in the regions may be impacted by the need to divert resources and personnel to Dublin?
If the witnesses have time, perhaps they could talk about the pension issues in a little bit more detail, and particularly in respect of senior personnel and the prospects of promotions. We have seen a number of reports that indicate there is a challenge in getting what might be the best person for the job and in getting somebody with experience taking on a promotion because of the pension implications. I know the witnesses cannot talk on Government policy matters but is it an area they have concerns about? Are they engaged with the Government on that matter?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I will start on the recruitment question first. Our current numbers are at 18,274 in total. Of that, 14,325 are sworn, 3,656 are staff, and 293 are Garda Reserve. The programme for Government is 5,000 over the next five years, bringing us to 2029. Obviously, that is not 5,000 added on to 14,000 because we have people who leave and retire. The numbers we are predicting that we will hit by the end of 2029 is 16,000. This is an uplift of around 1,700 from now.
Ms Toale is our chief corporate officer and she leads out on recruitment for us. I will ask Ms Toale to talk a little bit more about that in some detail.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It does not need to be in that much detail. I just want to know what the target is and when are we going to reach it.
Ms Siobhán Toale:
The Commissioner has outlined the target. The Cathaoirleach focused on two aspects of recruitment and retention. In terms of recruitment, we have a clear programme, supported by Government, which will enable us to increase the capacity of the college in stages over the next couple of quarters. We can take 250 per intake in the college from the second quarter next year. This is a key number the Cathaoirleach may want to refer to.
The other thing is retention. The committee will know that if some of our members have 30 years of service at age 50 or 55, some of them can retire on a full pension.
That is obviously of great benefit to them but it is a challenge to us as it prompts them to consider other career options.
I am pleased to say we are keeping our people for longer. For example, of the little over 800 people who could retire this year, about 200 will go, so we will retain 75% of those who could stay. We are very much focused on some of the things the Commissioner mentioned about making sure people are welcome and that they feel valued and have the equipment. There is a big focus on well-being, which is important to remember. I hope I have given the committee that in a nutshell.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
The Deputy asked about our preparation for the EU Presidency. I know that in previous justice committees we have spoken about the challenge around the EU Presidency. In those six months, it is probably going to be one of the biggest policing operations we have ever done as an organisation. All the team is involved in it. Dr. Coxon, in charge of policing operations, is leading out on the whole EU Presidency work we are doing. I might ask her to give members a flavour of the extent and where we are with that.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
There are a couple of things. Business as usual is certainly going to be a challenge. I am not going to sit here and say that it is not. We are working on looking at everything available to us. We have historically relied on things like bringing in people on their days off, overtime, etc. to support these things. The calendar, as members know, is not fully set yet but I assure the committee we have been working with Government to try to ensure there is no conflict in terms of have two large events on two dates, whether it is part of the EU calendar or not. For example, we are not quite sure what the Irish Open is going to look like next year. We are working with Government to try and ensure there are not two major events across the country at the same time because we are going to be stretched and we are aware of that.
As those plans crystallise in terms of what is needed and where, what the threat level is, where the locations are and what is required, we will be working through those. It is absolutely part of our planning process right now and Government has been very supportive and helpful to us in those conversations.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, I thank Dr. Coxon. I am going to have to come back to the Commissioner with the other questions I had and see if we have time towards the end. A non-member, Deputy Doherty, wants to come in so I am going to allow him five minutes and then we will open up for a second round of three minutes each.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe. Déanaim comhghairdeas leis an gCoimisinéir as a ardú céime. There is obviously a lot of excellent work the Garda is doing and it deserves all our support and praise but in this, we bring forward issues where things are not going as well. I heard some of the other Deputies and members talking about the community engagement and interaction and, I have to say, that is really wanting in certain areas. To give the witnesses an example, one of our local councillors, Councillor Brian Carr, who is from the Glenties electoral area, recently raised with the superintendent a number of serious concerns in relation to policing in the Glenties area, which is in west Donegal. I put it to the Commissioner that the Garda's response is seriously lacking with regard to this. In correspondence he issued back in May, Councillor Carr raised a number of serious concerns in relation to policing in the area. He talked about, in some cases, there being no gardaí on duty. He talked about Donegal town, right through to Glencolumbkille and Dungloe, and how there is only one garda covering that entire area, which is a coastal area. He talked about regular redeployment of assigned gardaí who would be located in Glenties. They are having to be redeployed to Ballyshannon or Donegal town for operational purposes. He talked about gardaí not having Garda vehicles and having to use their own personal vehicles. He talked about the Garda station being closed during official opening hours and the frustration among the community. He asked questions about the community engagement areas and how that will stretch the matters further.
In the response he received from the superintendent a week later, the superintendent said that in order to give Councillor Carr a full and frank response and answer him in the best way possible - this is a public representative he is writing to - he would like him to provide the source of information to ensure there is no breach of GDPR. He also asked the councillor to supply more information on the specific dates of the absence of gardaí on duty in the Glenties area; to supply the dates and times it is alleged gardaí have been redeployed to areas; and to provide the names of members who have had to use their own cars and the corresponding dates. That is a completely inappropriate response to a public representative who is raising ongoing concerns from the public to the gardaí.
Councillor Carr responded, in fairness to him, a number of days later and made it very clear that his questions reflected the consistent reports from members of the public, local representatives and community groups. He outlined six questions to the Garda, including the personnel levels and the current numbers of gardaí assigned to the Glenties and Ardara areas; second, whether there were regular shifts or time periods when there was no Garda presence in the area; what the protocol was in relation to redeployment; how many official Garda vehicles are assigned to Glenties and Ardara and whether members are required to use their own personal vehicles; whether the official opening hours are consistently observed; and a question in relation to community engagement areas. The response informed him of the times the Glenties station remains open and stated that none of the other questions can be answered for operational reasons. That is shocking, when we talk about engagement with the community, elected representatives and individuals. I ask the witnesses to respond to that. I have a further follow-up question to that, if that is okay.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I thank the Deputy for raising that with me. This is obviously the first I have heard of this. From what the Deputy has told me, I share his disappointment with that. Political representatives raising issues with An Garda Síochána is really important. What we have put in place specifically for this are community engagement superintendents. Their role is to engage with the community. One of the things with the operational model members will all know or have heard about is we stripped away all the other things they used to do - for example, discipline, finance and all that work - so they could concentrate on community engagement, and the likes of the example the Deputy has brought to us. I am obviously not in a position to comment in detail about the various things other than to share the Deputy's disappointment with some of that. On the face of it, it certainly does not at all seem to me to reach the standard of the response that political representative should have got. I will certainly ask Dr. Coxon, who is in charge of policing operations, to look at that. If the Deputy could provide that to us, we will certainly look at that.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I will. The engagement is one part of it but the substance of the matter - I will finish on this - is the other part of it. The substance that he pointed out in the first email is that this is not policing, it is crisis management, when he said there was only one garda on duty from Donegal town right through to Gweebarra, including Glencolumbkille. We had a terrible tragedy on the roads recently when the Rev. Sheila Johnson was killed. There was a garda on that road in a personal vehicle. He could not close the road and he had no signs or lights. He did not even have a sign on the car. He was not in a Garda vehicle. There was only one person on duty, as far as I understand, from Donegal town right through to Gweebarra. Two other people had to be called on duty. This is symptomatic of what Brian Carr, I and others have been raising. There is a serious crisis in personnel in Donegal with regard to Garda resources. I understand there is pressure with regard to Dublin and we have heard about the visibility and all the rest. It is coming at a cost to rural areas and it needs to be addressed. This has been highlighted by a public representative months beforehand. It has come to pass. It is unacceptable that we have a fatality on the side of the road and the Garda is not in a position to close the road. For half an hour travelling either side of them, there was not even a single garda on duty at that time. It is not acceptable.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I thank the Deputy. He is absolutely right. It is not acceptable that a member of An Garda Síochána would be using his own car in a position like that. We have more vehicles in the organisation than we have ever had before. I will certainly ask Dr. Coxon to look at that. I share the Deputy's concerns and I have no reason to doubt that the statements he is making are correct. I share his concerns around that. If the Deputy could give us some time, Dr. Coxon will certainly look at this but I share the concerns he has raised.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Kelly. It goes further than the vehicle; there was only one garda available for an hour's journey.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We will seek a comprehensive response. I am going to open it up for a second round of three minutes each. I ask everyone to be conscious that the Commissioner and a number of members have a place to be later. I call Deputy Butterly.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chair. I have two net questions for the Commissioner. Is the hugely unpopular operating model under review?
If not, why not? If it is, how soon will that review happen? It is hugely unpopular. As the Chair pointed out, we share a similar division but east Meath never received additional resources, even the east Meath part of Drogheda. That is my first question.
With regard to what the Chair alluded to in respect of the EU Presidency, I am getting a sense that the Garda is more or less being asked to make do with what it has, even though there will be severe pressure and many events across the country. Events will happen not just in Dublin but in every region. Has the Garda received a guarantee from the Minister for justice for additional funding and resources to deal with the EU Presidency? It is important. We know that there are security concerns. Is the Garda expected to call in the Italian Carabinieri?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I thank the Deputy. I will first deal with the question about the EU Presidency. The Deputy correctly said that there will be pressures around resources, equipment and capability. We have already made significant procurement purchases of equipment, vehicles and the technical specialist equipment we need, for example, counter-drone equipment. We have done a lot of work in that area.
Quite a significant time ago, we started to increase our training around specialist work, including, for example, the motorcycle escorts that will be required and close-protection officers. That training is well under way. We are also increasing firearms training. One of the big issues for the organisation will be overtime. As the deputy commissioner said earlier, we must keep the lights on all around the country with all the regular policing. We are going to need a significant amount around additional-----
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Has the Commissioner received guarantees in that regard?
Ms Siobhán Toale:
"Guarantees" is a very strong word. We have made submissions for funding based on a clear work plan that was led by Deputy Commissioner Coxon, who may wish to comment. We have sought funding to meet our needs. That process is under way and we are expecting a response in terms of those needs by the end of November. I am not sure, but Deputy Commissioner Coxon might have something to add.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I also asked about the operating model.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
As the Deputy knows, this was one of the biggest change projects we have ever had in the organisation. The Deputy asked specifically about reviews. We have already conducted three different reviews. The operational model finally went live in August this year with the last division. We have done three reviews so far. We have done the business services functional area, BSFA, review. We did the three-county review that was mentioned earlier. As a result of that, we made some changes and took three counties out of the model. I mentioned the BSFA review. We made changes as a result of that. We did a full questionnaire with our membership around how it is working. The next part we intend to look at is the crime functional area and how it is working. The operational model as it is at the moment is for sure not the final iteration. There will certainly be changes, and we are open to them. This was a huge project.
Another thing that is sometimes not fully appreciated is that there was a huge uplift in staff for this. For example, the number of superintendents went up. The number of inspectors went up significantly, from 300 to 406. Those are additional. Our Garda staff numbers went up. There are a significant number of Garda staff for all these functional areas. The operational model has involved a considerable increase in the number of people in management and support. The same number of gardaí are on the front line but the structures behind them have changed. The public should notice very little change in the response to calls and the number of gardaí out there. Much of the operational model was about taking administration functions away from gardaí and giving them to the Garda staff. As I said to Deputy Doherty earlier, we were splitting up superintendents. We have some now who are just doing discipline and governance. Others are doing community engagement. They are focusing just on community. We have taken a lot of that stuff away.
We for sure hear a lot of criticism of the operational model but I think a lot of general criticism of the organisation is focusing on the operational model. For example, nearly everyone here this afternoon has spoken about a lack of numbers. That criticism is conflated and understood as a problem with the operational model. It is not a problem with the operational model. It is to do with demand and the number of people we have coming in. There is also increased demand in things we never dealt with previously, for example, cybercrime and human trafficking, as we talked about earlier. All these new specialties draw people off the front line. As I say, and to answer the Deputy's question, there will be more reviews of the operational model and this is not the final version. I am, however, satisfied that is has brought lots of benefits to the organisation.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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My question also relates to the EU Presidency. The Commissioner said that procurement has already taken place. Does the Garda have the full budget or is that the budget it is hoping to get at the end of November?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
The biggest concern for us is around providing manpower. That is the biggest thing for us. The equipment and procurement I mentioned started a long time ago. This is not something that started in the past few months. Well over a year ago, 14 or 16 months ago, we were getting ready and procuring the things we needed for the Presidency. A lot of the equipment and things we need for the EU Presidency are not just for that purpose. We will also use them afterwards. For example, public order is going to be something we need to be on top of. We have increased our procurement of equipment that we will also use after the EU Presidency. The budget to which Ms Toale referred earlier is for overtime.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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How does the Garda plan for something when it does not know how much money it can spend?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I mean in full preparation for the EU Presidency. I am also concerned about contingencies. I know that we have talked about preparation, our motorcade and the other measures the Commissioner has talked about. Are we confident that we have sufficient contingency if we have an unexpected event, perhaps another Storm Éowyn, in the middle of this? Is the Commissioner confident that we are well-prepared and that the Garda will have the budget? The Garda does not know yet what its budget will be.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
We do not know the budget yet, but I assure the Deputy that some of the procurement pieces the Commissioner has been talking about have already been dealt with by the Department of foreign affairs. That is the lead Department on this. Certain things have been procured through that Department. While we are awaiting the budget, the key items we need, and the Deputy talked about the motorcade, etc., have gone through that Department. The situation is not as dire as it may seem. Most of our budget will relate to overtime, etc. I understand what the Deputy is saying about what we do if there are multiple events. We are preparing. The Defence Forces, for example, have a major emergency management team that has been working with us. We have major emergency management. We have done table-top exercises with respect to challenges associated with multiple events at the same time. Preparation for that will continue, going forward. You can never be prepared for everything, but the whole idea is to expect the unexpected. That is a part of our plan.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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There is a plan B. We need to be properly resourced. If the Garda needs more resources, that needs to be verbalised.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
It is a lot to talk about in a short timeframe, but we have also been working with our partners across Europe to learn and understand from them what they have been through and what they have seen that was unexpected. They have assisted us with everything from training to the kinds of equipment that we might need. There are opportunities for cross-collaboration in that space.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Do I have time for another question?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Can we check it? We have a member who has not spoken yet. Deputy O'Sullivan, is it okay if I complete the second round before bringing you in? I call Deputy Gannon, to be followed by Deputy Brabazon.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I again thank the Commissioner. How many members of the Garda are eligible for retirement or are scheduled to retire in the next three years?
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I can ask another question and we can come back to that.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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That is eye-watering. Are we at about 160 retirements a year at the moment on average?
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I imagine that might impact the expected increase in numbers we were talking about earlier.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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It is a challenge.
Is it possible to provide the type of service that those of us who live, work and come into Dublin city centre would expect? I am starting to believe the challenges of the city are so complex and myriad in nature that I do not believe that An Garda Síochána on its own could provide the type of service we would like to see in the city. Is it policeable, from the organisation's perspective and understanding the nature of its own role?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
If I confine myself to the policing, it is policeable, but there are a lot of challenges in Dublin city centre. The Deputy is well familiar with the area and knows that there is a lot of accommodation for homeless people, there are services that provide support for people with drug addiction, there are economically challenged communities and there is a considerable amount of accommodation for international protection people. All of that is in a relatively tight area. There are a lot of challenges there for us. From a policeability point of view, it is absolutely policeable, but for us it is around the numbers that we put in there. The Deputy will see, for example, that in the city centre-----
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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What supports could we as public representatives or other emanations of the State give to support An Garda Síochána in the challenges facing Dublin city centre?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
Mr. Cleary and Dr. Coxon and some of our chief superintendents have spoken about this. For us, there is considerable strain on the city centre due to all of those entities being put into that one area. All of those things are important. Please do not get me wrong; I support all those things. People need to be accommodated. The drug rehabilitation thing is really important to me, as the Deputy knows. There is a report from the Department of the Taoiseach. Work is being done in Dublin city centre around some of those areas. A lot of it is way outside the control of An Garda Síochána. Everyone on this side of the table wants to make Dublin city centre, from a policing point of view, a place where people feel safe to come into, to send their children in to socialise and to go into work and socialise. This is why the concentration is on high visibility. There are 16 high-visibility beats in there now that we did not have before. We are probably going to increase that. For us, the statistics are going in a positive direction. I spoke about some of them in my opening statement. I know we are tight on time, but I will quickly go over-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Very quickly, if you could, Commissioner.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
Public order - this is our incidents of public order - is up 26%, as in we are now interacting and sorting those issues out. Criminal damage in that area, where we have them, is down 17%. Assaults are down nearly 8% in those areas. Robbery, a really heinous offence, is down 30% in those areas. We could talk about this in quite a lot of detail. I only give those figures as a snapshot of what high-visibility policing can do in an area. We are absolutely determined to do this. Dr. Coxon and Mr. Cleary have done a lot of work on this. I have two chief superintendents in the city centre that have bought into this high-visibility strategy to try to improve the perception that people have around the city centre. I am from Dublin and I am dedicated to trying to make it a place where people feel safe.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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I have a number of short questions I want to ask.
Would the Commissioner be supportive of stronger legal provisions for parental accountability where minors are repeatedly involved in antisocial or criminal behaviour? Following on from that, are there any convictions or pending prosecutions under the Criminal Justice (Engagement of Children in Criminal Activity) Act? In relation to garda numbers, are there any plans to increase capacity, either inside or outside Templemore, for garda training? Would the Commissioner be supportive of legislation to make registration of scramblers compulsory?
The last time the Commissioner was here he was with his predecessor and I raised the issue of 999 calls and how the public were not feeling confident in the system and that it was counterintuitive for them to call 999 for a simple matter. A lot of the feedback I have had since is that people are not bothering to call 999. That follows on then. If they are not calling 999 and the incidences are not being recorded, how accurate are the statistics that are being provided? There are a lot of issues in relation to that 999 piece. I understand a commitment was made by Deputy Commissioner Coxon on the last occasion that a review would be undertaken in relation to 999. Is there any update on that?
Mr. Paul Cleary:
In relation to GardaSAFE, the Deputy suggested that people might be reluctant to ring the gardaí. There has been a significant increase in the number of calls to GardaSAFE. It is currently at 1.2 million this year to date, with another 545,000 on top of that as call transfers. People are still calling their Garda stations when they need action from the gardaí. Those call transfers from the stations now make up 31% of all calls we receive. People have bought into it. If you require the gardaí to be called to an incident, you can call 999 or your station. That is getting through. We have also improved on our answer-----
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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On that, people are saying to me that they are calling 999 or a Garda station, they have been put through, the call has been triaged and nobody is showing up. The number of calls might be going up, but they are saying they do not have faith in the system because nobody is showing up to deal with the issues.
Mr. Paul Cleary:
When the calls are triaged, they are categorised and prioritised. Priority 1 calls will get as much of an immediate response as you can. The call answer times have increased to 17 seconds nationally across all control centres. Despite this perception or narrative around the introduction of GardaSAFE, this is another system, but it is giving us a lot more functionality, accountability and oversight into the system. As regards gardaí not turning up to the calls, I would be happy to talk about any specific instances the Deputy might have, but our systems will show that the priority 1 calls will be answered as quickly as they can, followed by priority 2 and 3. For priority 3, such as shoplifting calls, there is an 18-minute response time. We are not seeing that about gardaí not turning up, but if there are some specific instances, we will be happy to have a look at them for you.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I will continue where I left off on the specialist unit. We have talked a lot this afternoon about drugs, to be quite honest. I am just wondering about the teams that are out there. I am talking about Galway again. While there is really good work going on there, I would say that we could with many more gardaí in the drugs unit. A pet project of mine is in relation to the canine unit. I do not know if it has arrived yet in Galway, but one came. We depend on Cork again for the dog. There is a real fixation with Cork today, but that is where the dog comes from when we need him. We have the space at Murrough and we have a garda handler. I am just wondering where we are in relation to that. Is there a waiting list for the youth diversion programmes in some of areas?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
We participate in the youth diversion programmes, but we do not run them. It is the Department that runs the programmes.
The drugs units are very important to us. I worked on one of them for five years so I am obviously really supportive of them. Everyone who is out there in the uniform is doing drugs work. The Deputy knows that. I do not have the statistics in front of me for seizures, but front-line people are seizing a lot of drugs, arresting people for drugs offences and stopping cars or other suspicious vehicles. Our national drugs unit, the Garda National Drugs and Organised Crime Bureau, is at record levels of seizures. If we put aside the year when the MV Matthewwas interdicted off the coast, this year might be one of our biggest years ever. We are absolutely determined to take action around drugs and the people supplying them who are doing all the damage in the communities.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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To be fair, that is the bit parents are really concerned about. An Garda Síochána is doing fantastic work - we hear about it day in, day out - but that is not the way it is felt by those who see that there is so much of a supply in the communities. They feel it is getting down to the younger generations. I ask about the dog because there is a real need for it as a deterrent. Parents are really concerned and they do not want young kids to be getting into it.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
I know there was an issue late last year getting the canine officers in the Senator's area trained. It was a training issue. I assure her that the assistant commissioner out there was all over it. I was going to say that she was hounding me. Genuinely, she was. I will get an update for the Senator on the issue because I know it was resolved. It is a long process to get them trained and in situ. I do not have the final determination of where that is at, but I will get it.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Dr. Coxon and I commend her pun. I call Deputy Kenny.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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At a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts and at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration last June, my colleague, Deputy Kelly, asked the then Commissioner, Drew Harris, about his knowledge of at least 17,000 fingerprint sets vanishing from the Garda AFIS system. Mr. Harris said that he had only become aware of the matter in the previous few weeks. I have spoken with Deputy Kelly and we both question the accuracy of the response given. Could the Commissioner advise the committee of how precisely the matter was brought to Drew Harris's attention, and on what precise date? Did it occur in the late spring or summer of 2025? Perhaps the Commissioner might provide a copy of that correspondence to the committee.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
I wish to correct the term "vanishing". I appreciate why the Deputy might use that word, but it is a systems issue. There is a fingerprint system and a records management system. When people tick that they are going to have fingerprints taken, that speaks to the other system. When one system is clicked on, it shows up in the fingerprint system. Sometimes those records are not being completed.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Did we lose 17,000 fingerprints in the system?
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
No. There is lot of work to be done to understand how many are in there waiting to be uploaded. This is part of an important process we are going to need to follow through on with respect to the digitisation of fingerprints. We are very keen to move to a system where they would all be digital. We have to deal with the backlog of fingerprints that are awaiting upload. In other circumstances, the system is clicked on in a way that records that fingerprints are to be taken, but that is not the case.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Could we go back to the main point of the discourse, which is the suggestion that the former Garda Commissioner had only just been made aware of it. Is it possible for the Garda to provide to the committee the correspondence that was given to Drew Harris to make him aware of this? Does that exist?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I presume that someone within Garda HQ is aware of that correspondence.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Could we unearth that correspondence, perhaps?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
-----off the top of my head. The reality is that this is a huge organisation and there are many different things going on. I do not know this, but there may not have been direct correspondence to the Commissioner.
Obviously, there are many areas either deputy deals with or the CCO deals with and under them, there is a whole layer of assistant commissioners. Sometimes these issues, and I am not saying this particular one, are discussed. For example, our senior leadership team meets every Tuesday. Obviously, there may not be correspondence about every single issue to the Commissioner.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The Commissioner would have been involved in those senior leadership meetings throughout 2025. Was this issue brought up at one of them?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Okay, if you take every so often, obviously-----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I know. Give or take, the Commissioner might have missed a couple of meetings. That is fair based on his work. Was the Commissioner at a senior management team meeting where this issue was brought to Drew Harris's attention?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Could someone in Garda HQ go back and try to unearth that, if correspondence was given to Drew Harris? Could the Commissioner perhaps give that job to someone in Garda HQ, just to investigate whether correspondence exists as to how Drew Harris became aware of this issue? Would the Commissioner be willing to do that?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I would appreciate that.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That answers that.
I will ask a second round of questions myself. Hopefully, I will be more brief this time to give the Commissioner time to answer the question in respect of the cross-Border co-operation that I mentioned previously. The Dublin Airport bombing of 1975 is one of the atrocities of the Troubles that most people have forgotten. It seems to have been erased from the public consciousness were it not for the efforts in more recent times of the family of John Hayes who was killed in that bombing. I understand that following the bombing in 1975 a file was prepared. Can the Commissioner confirm whether that file was sent to the DPP and whether it was the DPP or An Garda Síochána that decided that there was not sufficient evidence at that time to bring charges against anyone named therein? Perhaps the Commissioner could give an update on that investigation. I know the family of John Hayes has sought a meeting with the Commissioner. Will the Commissioner update the committee as to when that might happen?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. Obviously, there is a terrible tragedy behind this. I do share something the Cathaoirleach said. I think this was forgotten by a lot of people - and it was interesting the publicity it got - even within our own organisation. I think at the time there was the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, etc.
Mr. Hayes has corresponded with me. I have agreed to meet him, and I will do that. In the interim, I have looked for a full update on where we are with it all. I do not have that back yet. I understand there was a file so I just-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Was a file sent to the DPP?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I understand there was a file; I am not sure what the final status of it was. What I was going to say was, as the Cathaoirleach will appreciate with many of these historical things, that it is not that easy around records. However, we are certainly going to look into it now that it has come to the fore. We will establish whether a file went in and what the result of that was. We will certainly be able to share that with the committee, and, of course, whether we need to re-look at that investigation. Obviously, the Denton inquiry has provided some additional information recently. Of course, because of the work of the British and Irish Governments, we have now, starting from this year, a specialist unit which is going to deal with a lot of the legacy issues. This may be one that will come under its remit. As I said, I have certainly agreed to meet Mr. Hayes on the matter.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In respect of cross-Border co-operation on issues such as cattle-----
Mr. Justin Kelly:
What I would say on the face of it is that we have excellent relationships with the PSNI but, as the Cathaoirleach rightly said, there are lots of issues with cross-Border matters. Wherever there is a border, people exploit it. The cattle issue is just one area that is exploited across the Border. We have very good working relationships with the PSNI. There was a recent high-profile case that we spoke about earlier. The PSNI undertook searches for us in Northern Ireland on that case. It is unfortunate if the particular issue the Cathaoirleach spoke about was not treated as seriously as it should have been between both services.
If the particular issue you are speaking about was not treated as seriously as it absolutely should have been between both services, we will certainly look into that. The Border is there but we work really well with the PSNI. It is a daily relationship now.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Deputy O'Sullivan for his patience and he has seven minutes.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for being late. I had a few other meetings. I will begin with the issue of penalty points. Something I mentioned to the Commissioner's predecessor a few months ago is that the prevalence as I drive up the motorway of people on their phones is off the scale. Even again today, I can quote numerous occasions when it was very visible. I have asked parliamentary questions about this over the past six months and it is clear it is trending in one direction. Where are we terms of using technology to combat its widespread use?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I will ask Dr. Coxon to come in on this because she has responsibility for our roads policing units. But I will say that the Deputy is right. The behaviour is absolutely shocking. We have taken a number of measures to apprehend people and, as Deputy O'Sullivan rightly said, the number of FCPNs are up. One of the measures is the HGV we bought, which we can use to look in at a higher level to see what motorists are doing. This has been very successful. As I have said, this is driver behaviour. This is about education on driver behaviour. One part of this is the enforcement part and there are several stakeholders engaged in it. I will ask Dr. Coxon to discuss any other measures.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
It is important to note the speed cameras because this has been a lot of work. We took it over from the Department of Transport. We now have 14 across the country, with five of them being average and nine of them being fixed. This is a project we put in place a year and a half ago and we have got it in. It has contributed significantly to the increase in the FCPNs. We are seeing shocking behaviour, as the Commissioner said, including seeing the same persons being charged over and over again on some of these cameras.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Garda have any idea of the number of penalty points that have come directly from these kinds of interventions?
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Or even from the HGV truck.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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As much as possible. When the HGV was launched it was on the news and it was much lauded. I would like to see how effective it has been.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I would be interested to see this because it seems like it will be swimming against the waterfall. I understand the Garda's role is enforcement and it is largely down to education but, at the same time, I would like to see how effective the various interventions have been.
I want to ask about the prevalence of drug-driving. I was late to the meeting so I am not sure whether we have spoken about the prevalence of drugs in society. It is everywhere. I am sure the witnesses do not need to be told about it, particularly when people decide to get behind the wheel. Are the witnesses seeing this? I know there is an increase in the number of people detected using drugs. I am more interested to hear about the number of checkpoints the Garda has trying to detect drink-related activity. Are we looking at a 3:1, 4:1 or 5:1 ratio of checkpoints that detect drugs only versus alcohol only? Is it both in one? How prevalent has it been?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
What I would say is the Deputy is absolutely right. Drug-driving numbers are up and they are trending upwards. Drink-driving prosecutions are going down while drug-driving prosecutions are going up. I have some of the statistics. The number for drug-driving for 2025 to date is 2,179. The figure for the whole of last year was 2,079. We are in November and we are obviously going to well exceed last year's figure. There is an increase of 6% so far on last year.
To answer the question on the checkpoints, we do both at the one checkpoint. We do not have a drug checkpoint or an alcohol checkpoint. We do both things. We can test at the scene for both. We have two different ways of doing it, obviously.
The Deputy perhaps heard me speak about the prevalence of drugs and the scourge of it, particularly cocaine. We are really concerned about it.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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In the experience of the witnesses it is primarily cocaine.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
Yes, primarily cocaine. We have other concerns about drugs such as nitazenes, fentanyl and these types of things as well. We have seen nitazenes here which are extremely dangerous. They are far more dangerous than heroin. For us it is the prevalence of cocaine, particularly with young people. Again, I have spoken lots of times about people taking cocaine and having a complete disconnect between this and the damage it does. Deputy Mark Ward spoke about some of the problems in his area with organised crime feuds. These are all fuelled by drugs, obviously, but there is a disconnect between the users and this. There is a further disconnect between the users and the environmental damage they are doing in South America and the absolute destruction over there. Again, similar to some of the issues we have spoken about today, these are societal issues and we are on the enforcement end of it. We do our bit on education but we are only one part of it.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have one more question which I had not planned on asking but mention of dogs and puns about hounding got me interested in it. I have long advocated for animal rights. In particular in Cork city we have an issue with equine welfare. I am not here to criticise the Garda or the local authority but the enforcement falls between the cracks. I would love to see a multiagency approach working but for me in this particular scenario it seems to be the excuse for why things do not work. The Garda has a role in it, and there is a role for charities and the local authority, as I have said. Is this a role the witnesses think the Garda should be doing or would it rather see it wholly delegated to somewhere else? If it is a job the Garda is still happy to have a role in, would it consider the establishment of a designated unit that would drive it? It is not solely the responsibility of the Garda, as I have said, but what is there is just not working.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
I am very well aware of this issue and I really appreciate it. We have done some enforcement. We have seen this in Dublin and I give a nod to my colleague, Mr. Cleary, who has been invested in this, particularly with some of the horses we saw after Citywest. A horse collapsed and it was a local garda with equine knowledge who was able to take it. Many people have followed what has happened with that particular horse since that occasion.
It has been asked for in the past and I definitely think there is a role for us. We do need to be involved. We are open to what that could look like. I do not want to give a definitive answer today but there is certainly a role for An Garda Síochána and I get that it needs a bit of attention.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
If I may add to this, it is something that as Garda Commissioner I am concerned about. Some of the organisations have reached out and have looked to meet me and I am very positive about this. I will certainly meet them. I certainly agree with Dr. Coxon that it is something we need to be involved in.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses. We need to wrap up quickly. Deputy Callaghan has one additional question, if she wants to come in very quickly.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach. With regard to the retention we have been speaking about, what is the Commissioner's opinion on the pension being reverted to what it was previously? Deputy Butterly spoke about this, as did the Cathaoirleach. If there were improvements in the pension scheme, does the Commissioner think we might be able to hold on to more gardaí, especially in the cybersecurity area? It is my experience that people will hold on in a job for which they could be paid more in the private sector if they were guaranteed that in retirement they would be very comfortable. What is the opinion of the Commissioner on this?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
Anything that makes An Garda Síochána more attractive will help with retention. Pension is only one of a number of issues with regard to retention. It is not the only issue for us. This is governmental policy. It is not just An Garda Síochána. It is across many agencies and many services. As I said earlier, of course it is not as attractive as it was but it is only one issue for people who are leaving.
Ms Siobhán Toale:
We have been concentrating on why people stay rather than why people leave. We have shared our turnover numbers with the committee and they are relatively modest compared with other police forces. We know people stay if they have meaningful work and they are really attracted to the purpose of An Garda Síochána, and why would they not be? We know they want the equipment to do their jobs. We know they want to be trained. I think we had something like 47,000 training days last year. We had almost nine training days per head of employee in the organisation. People want to be supported in terms of well-being. We have 5,000 people trained in terms of mental health first aid. These are the things that can bring people together and keep them with us longer. We are a very supportive organisation, as are all public sector organisations, for people when they have difficulties with family or personal situations. These are the things in our control. The Commissioner is focusing with us on supporting those.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will allow Deputy Ó Murchú just one question because we are very tight on time.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I just want to know if there will be any consideration in relation to looking at the divisional structure. My particular question is about Louth and Cavan-Monaghan as a single entity. We know the various differences between the two areas. Louth has Dundalk and Drogheda, with the particular issues that large urban areas bring. At times then, we have a superintendent dealing with serious crime who is based in the other two counties and trying to operate. If we talk to any senior gardaí, they will say they make it work as best they can. I am not, though, necessarily sure I think it is the best model.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I thank the Deputy. We have already conducted a review of the three county models already. We did reverse some of them. On the other ones, we took a decision, after a lot of work and research, not to do that. The management in the area the Deputy spoke about is quite content with the three-county model. On the fact that a detective superintendent has a large area to cover, it is not expected that he is the one going around from scene to scene. He is managing his resources within that area. I spoke about this earlier. The operational model freed up the likes of that detective superintendent from responsibilities. He does not deal with discipline, finance or any of those issues any more. These are the advantages of that operating model. I did say earlier, though, that the operating model as we see it now is not the final model. There will obviously be iterations to it going forward.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the questioner and the responder for their brevity. I will mention, just in the context of Deputy O'Sullivan's remarks, that this Sunday, 16 November, marks World Day of Remembrance for Road Traffic Victims. A number of events are taking place and I might ask the clerk to circulate information concerning those we are aware of to members and encourage people to attend if they can.
I sincerely thank Commissioner Kelly, Deputy Commissioner Coxon, Acting Deputy Commissioner Cleary and Ms Toale for being here and for contributing to what I think was a very constructive discussion. I think we can easily get a sense that the discussion and the detail could have gone on for much longer. I sincerely hope we will be able to bring the witnesses back in next year at some point to discuss progress on a number of different matters. I ask that additional information sought and to be sent in the form of correspondence, or any other information the Garda might wish to forward, be sent officially through the clerk. I also propose we publish the Commissioner's opening statement on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed.
All the contributions, I think, could be summarised in one request and it is for increased Garda visibility in our rural communities, regional towns and larger urban centres. Gardaí being seen and visible in our communities is, in my view, the best deterrent of crime, the best way of identifying the causes of crime and the best way of responding quickly when crimes happen. I acknowledge the work the Commissioner, his senior management team and all the members of the Garda have been doing across the State. I encourage that the changes and improvements that need to be made are made as quickly as possible. Go raibh míle maith agaibh agus go n-éirí an t-ádh libh.
I propose that we go into private session very briefly to deal with a couple of housekeeping matters. Is that agreed? Agreed.