Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I have apologies from Senator Eileen Lynch.

I am happy to say we will engage with representatives of the three regional assemblies in Ireland. We are joined by Councillor David Healy, cathaoirleach, and Councillor Robert Power from the Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly; Councillor Micheál Frain, cathaoirleach, and Councillor Eileen Mannion from the Northern and Western Regional Assembly; and Councillor Andrew McGuinness, cathaoirleach, and Councillor Gillian Coughlan, who we know from last week, from the Southern Regional Assembly. They have been listed in alphabetical order, in case anybody is concerned about the order in which they are appearing. I also welcome all three directors of the regional assemblies, who are available to assist if any issue arises.

The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss the role of EU funding within the regions, how it is managed and overseen and how EU matters are co-ordinated within the regions. This builds upon the informative and fruitful meeting we had last week with the president of the European Committee of the Regions and the Irish delegation.

Sula leanfaimid ar aghaidh, tá mé chun fógra beag gairid a dhéanamh. Tá sé de dhualgas orm na rialacha agus na treoracha seo a leanas a leagan faoi bhráid na bhfinnéithe uile. Molaim d'fhinnéithe a bheith cúramach agus fianaise á tabhairt acu. Má ordaíonn mé dóibh éirí as fianaise a thabhairt i leith ní áirithe, ba chóir go ndéanfaidh siad amhlaidh láithreach. Ordaítear dóibh gan aon fhianaise a thabhairt nach fianaise í a bhaineann le hábhar na n-imeachtaí atá á bplé againn. Ba chóir dóibh a bheith ar an eolas go ndéanfar na ráitis tosaigh a chuir siad faoi bhráid an chomhchoiste a fhoilsiú ar shuíomh gréasáin an chomhchoiste tar éis an chruinnithe seo.

Iarrtar ar fhinnéithe agus ar chomhaltaí araon cleachtadh parlaiminte a urramú nár chóir, más féidir, daoine ná eintiteas a cháineadh, líomhaintí a dhéanamh ina n-aghaidh ná tuairimí a thabhairt maidir leo ina ainm, ina hainm nó ina n-ainm ar shlí a bhféadfaí iad a aithint. Chomh maith leis sin, iarrtar orthu gan aon rud a rá a d'fhéadfaí breathnú air mar ábhar díobhálach do dhea-chlú aon duine nó eintiteas. Mar sin, dá bhféadfaí a ráitis a bheith clúmhillteach do dhuine nó eintiteas aitheanta, ordóidh mé dóibh éirí as an ráiteas láithreach. Tá sé rithábhachtach go ngéillfidh siad leis an ordú sin láithreach. That is a warning on privilege.

One member is joining online. He has confirmed he is within the precincts of Leinster House. There is a constitutional obligation on members to be here. I thank them all for that.

I will let the witnesses know the format for this meeting. They each have five minutes for their opening statements, as they know. We will then go to members, who will each have five minutes for questions and answers. I assure them that if they feel there is anything unsaid at the end, they are welcome to come back in. We will not cut anyone off in that regard.

As I said, we will go in alphabetical order. I call on Councillor Healy, cathaoirleach of the Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly, to make his opening statement.

Mr. David Healy:

Go raibh maith agat a Chathaoirligh, as an gcuireadh a labhairt libh inniu. Is onóir dúinn a bheith anseo.

The Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly, EMRA, is one of the three Irish regional assemblies. Our functions cover planning and economic development, European affairs and regional governance. Overall, our ambition is to support regional development and deliver concrete change on the ground for the benefit of the region, using evidence-based decision-making. As members of this committee know, regional assemblies have been entrusted with the management of European funds and the role of raising awareness on European opportunities. EMRA is the managing authority for the EU just transition fund. It has demonstrated its expertise and capacity in implementing the €169 million fund in support of key projects diversifying the local economy, providing jobs and rehabilitating natural and heritage assets for the territory and communities most impacted by the transition.

As you all know, the funds managed by regional assemblies are instruments of the European cohesion policy. Members heard last week from the Committee of the Regions president, Kata Tütt, and our colleague Councillor Gillian Coughlan as to how the proposals published by the European Commission this summer regarding the future are raising serious concerns for regions. I will not repeat it all, but the drowning of cohesion policy in a wider fund that would also include agriculture and security is a threat to the policy and its objective of reducing disparities within and between regions.

The programming of the fund through national and regional partnerships would also undermine the territorial dimension of the policy. We therefore call on Ireland to advocate at European level during the upcoming negotiations for a cohesion policy that retains and reinforces its place-based dimension, allowing regions to be active partners in both design and implementation of the future funding programmes.

Another important point we want to raise with the committee today is the current misalignment between the European Regional Development Fund, ERDF, regional programmes and regional boundaries. At present, there are only two ERDF regional programmes in Ireland for three regions. The southern, eastern and midland programme covers the territories of both the southern region and the eastern and midland region. This programme is managed by the Southern Regional Assembly. While there is great co-operation between the two assemblies, this disconnect weakens considerably our regional structure and hinders the possibility of tailored support for each region. EMRA has proven its capacity to deliver EU funding, with the effective implementation of the EU just transition fund in the wider midlands.

Each regional assembly has adopted its regional spatial and economic strategy, RSES, and will soon start its review. These strategies are the locally informed regional translation of the national planning framework and provide a long-term strategic framework for the development of the region. Not aligning this key policy with EU funding is a missed opportunity, which is why the members of the regional assembly ask for alignment between EU funding and regional structures so that these funds can be leveraged for the benefit of our territories. Such a change would reinforce the political legitimacy of our assemblies and strengthen the regional structure in Ireland, which is currently weak, especially in comparison with our European counterparts. As the Cathaoirleach highlighted last week to the committee, subsidiarity is crucial to put us on par with other European regions. This is a point we included in our submission to the local democracy task force consultation that took place this summer as we feel strongly that reinforced regional governance is key to the strengthening of our democracy.

There is a lot more that a stronger assembly could deliver for citizens and territories. To realise the full value of Ireland's EU membership, it is essential that the Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly's engagement with European institutions is routine, professional and on par with our regional counterparts across Europe. Many European regions have long-established networks and advocacy channels that allow them to shape EU policy and secure investment aligned with their priorities. An empowered and better resourced EMRA, in tandem with the Irish Regions European Office, will be able to contribute regional evidence to EU policymaking, form strategic partnerships and ensure that our region's voice is heard in the European arena, all for the benefit of our region and its communities.

We would relish the possibility to do more when it comes to European engagement. The region has proved its capacity to deliver and is ready to take on future challenges. For this, we need the support of the committee in ensuring regions remain and are enhanced as key actors on the European scene and in the future EU programming period. Together, we can work to place regions at the centre when it comes to designing and implementing policies that impact regional and local communities, and to make sure that the regions of Ireland have the necessary resources to keep delivering concrete benefits on the ground.

Mr. Micheál Frain:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it today on the important work of the Northern and Western Regional Assembly in the areas of European funding and co-operation. The three regional assemblies are key to regional development, driving the statutory regional spatial and economic strategies and EU-funded programmes. This dual focus helps direct EU funding for maximum long-term regional impact. In recent years, our assembly has built a team of approximately 30 staff and our growth is reflective of the growth in a number of policy areas, including spatial planning and ERDF programme delivery.

The Border, Midlands and Western Regional Assembly was established by Government Order on 21 July 1999 with the remit to act as the managing authority for EU Structural Funds in the BMW region. Under the Local Government Reform Act 2014, a number of changes were made to the regional structures in Ireland. The eight regional authorities were dissolved on 1 June 2014 and their functions and staff were transferred to the regional assemblies. Subsequently the three regional assemblies were established on 1 January 2015. These are the Northern and Western Regional Assembly, the Eastern and Midlands Regional Assembly and the Southern Regional Assembly. Together, the regional assemblies form a strong regional structure that strengthens the development of Ireland's regions in a co-ordinated, strategic manner.

The Northern and Western Regional Assembly has been the managing authority for a number of regional programmes, including the 2007 to 2013 programme, which had a €571 million investment, and the 2014 to 2020 programme, which had a €321 million investment. Our current programme is the Northern and Western Regional Programme 2021-2027, which is a €217 million investment strategy focusing on developing a more competitive region through increased research development and innovation, aligned with our smart specialisation strategy, supporting actions to scale up energy efficiency measures for those in energy poverty, and supporting the sustainable regeneration of towns and urban centres using a town centre first framework.

The Northern and Western Regional Assembly has been actively involved in managing INTERREG territorial co-operation programmes in Ireland since 2000, and holds the national contact point in Ireland for the INTERREG northern periphery and Arctic programme as well as for the Atlantic area programme. The assembly frequently participates in individual European territorial co-operation projects, often serving as the lead partner in facilitating the exchange of best practices and policy learning. These activities contribute to the effective management and development of regional programmes and the RSES. Our track record demonstrates that generally we conduct this work well.

It is worth highlighting that what sets the northern and western region apart from the other two regions in Ireland is that it has been classified by the European Commission as a region in transition. It has been downgraded from being a more developed region owing to a number of indicators which, regrettably, show our region has a lower economic performance. These include a lower GDP per capita ratio and other challenges, such as a particularly weak infrastructure score when compared to European norms. This presents an ongoing challenge for the people of our region, as well as being a clear policy issue which requires the implementation of robust policy and investment in projects of scale to meaningfully address regional imbalance in Ireland. A geographically even distribution in the roll-out of transport and national grid projects is just one of the key enabling conditions for a more balanced island. Thankfully, this approach is advocated in the recently updated national planning framework.

It is the view of the regional assembly members who sit at our monthly meetings that, unfortunately, the highly centralised system of government in Ireland has not served the regions particularly well to date. The Northern and Western Regional Assembly would, therefore, stress the vital importance of a critical assessment of the potential impacts of the European Commission's draft multi-annual financial framework for 2028 to 2034, which was published in July 2025. The proposal to bring funds together under a single national and regional partnership plan poses significant risks in terms of diluting a priority tenet of the EU, namely, economic, social and territorial cohesion. In short, we need a model consisting of less centralisation and not more.

In relation to territorial cohesion, in recent years, our assembly has published a number of research papers, all of which are available on our website. These reports contain one recurring message, which is that the socioeconomic evidence demonstrates there is a major challenge faced by all of us here, and by all arms of the State, to deliver a levelling up on this island in terms of regional development, and to ensure consistency of opportunity for all our citizens. The Northern and Western Regional Assembly is happy to do whatever we can to aid this task, and we wish to continue to deliver on European programmes and policy engagement.

We ask for the support of this committee in ensuring that we will look forward to the regional assemblies being at the centre of crafting policy, as well as implementing decisions that will hopefully continue to positively impact the regions and local communities and to bring a sustained and progressive growth across all of society in the northern and western region.

Mr. Andrew McGuinness:

As cathaoirleach of the Southern Regional Assembly, I welcome the opportunity to present to the committee today on the work of the Southern Regional Assembly with regard to EU affairs. As with our colleagues in the eastern and midland and northern and western regional assemblies, we play an important role in regional development through the statutory regional spatial and economic strategies and the important complementary role of designing, implementing and monitoring EU-funded programmes. Both of these functions are set out in our establishment order which requires also that the design of these EU programmes be consistent with the objectives of and contribute to the implementation of the RSES.

This dual approach is essential to ensure that EU regional funding is targeted and directed to where it can have most long-term impact at regional level. The Southern Regional Assembly has been a managing authority for four successive regional programmes, with an investment of over €1 billion in EU funds. We are currently managing the ERDF co-funded Southern, Eastern and Midland Regional Programme 2021-2027. This programme is investing €663 million in the two regions within the programme area, €265 million from the ERDF and €398 million of national funding. This is supporting activities in the areas of research and innovation, in particular in the new technological universities, energy efficiency in housing for those at risk of fuel poverty, and sustainable urban regeneration through the town centre first heritage revival, THRIVE, scheme.

Our objective, both in designing this programme and managing its implementation, is that the programme responds to local and regional needs, and that it plays its part in reducing regional disparities and promoting balanced economic, social and territorial development. The Southern Regional Assembly also supports local authorities, third level institutes, enterprise and community groups to access EU funding, in particular through European territorial co-operation programmes, otherwise known as INTERREG. This funding is competitive and the regional assemblies play a key role in supporting Irish applicants to secure funding in two ways. First, by having a voice on the monitoring committees for INTERREG programmes, the regional assemblies can ensure that Irish national and regional objectives are taken into account during the design of the funding calls and the selection of projects. Second, the regional assemblies have a dedicated staff member each, working as INTERREG contact points. The contact points support Irish organisations applying to competitive INTERREG calls, giving them advice and linking them with partners overseas.

Partners from local communities and development groups, local authorities, universities, start-up companies and many more have all benefited greatly from participating in these EU programmes. We believe Irish partners can do better, and we have two specific proposals that would support this goal. The first is to ensure greater capacity within the local government sector to support EU engagement. We had evidence that local authorities which have resources in place are more successful in securing EU funding. The second is to provide greater support for civil society organisations, including match-funding. Member states that provide this extra support enjoy very high success rates, for example, the Netherlands, Germany and Belgium.

Looking ahead, the European Commission's draft for the 2028–2034 multi-annual financial framework was published in July 2025. The proposal, which brings a wide range of funds together under a single national and regional partnership plan, poses significant risks of diluting a core principle of the EU, which is economic, social and territorial cohesion. This new proposal aims for a one-size-fits-all design and management approach to regional development, as well as a merging of programmes, while also giving national governments centralised control over their allocation. It is worth noting that the Irish approach to local and regional government is already quite centralised. The assemblies have worked very well with the member states and Government Departments on the management of EU funding to date, and we hope this will continue. However, the Commission's proposal to further centralise funding decisions relating to regional development poses a risk of disenfranchising those tasked with, and closest to, regional needs and long-term objectives. Ireland's regions could potentially lose out if the voices and priorities of the regions are not heard and not involved in delivery of cohesion policy on the ground.

I know most members have come from a local authority background. Some, including the Chair, have served on regional assemblies. I am sure they appreciate the points we are trying to make here. I believe we are collectively making the same points, which is important. We are ready and willing to continue our work and we ask that the voice of the regions be considered during the negotiations with the European Parliament and national government to ensure the best outcome for regional development in the evolving EU.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for being here. They play an important role. There is one councillor from my county here, Mr. Robert Power. I know he was former chair and has done much work in the area. That is not taking away, of course, from the present cathaoirleach, Mr. David Healy. The witnesses are all very welcome. This is getting to be a weekly occurrence with Ms Coughlan. She is always welcome here, as are Mr. McGuinness and Mr. Frain. I thank the witnesses for their contributions and presentations. There are some underlying themes.

I have a few questions to tease out. Last week, we heard from Ms Coughlan and the president of the Committee of the Regions about the importance of having European liaison officers who work closely with local authorities to look at funding opportunities. That is something that we on the committee agreed with. I say that without wishing to pre-empt the recommendations that we make. I would like to get the witnesses' views on that.

On funding opportunities, obviously the regional assemblies are trying to make sure that Ireland maximises its allocation under the current funding, but we have negotiations on new funding opportunities coming up post 2027. How are the regional assemblies preparing for that and looking for the challenges and opportunities? What priorities do they see emerging regarding that? The witnesses might say a word or two on the progress that is made through the assemblies working with local authorities and community groups to try to access EU funding, because it is not an easy task.

The final question is about just transition funding. Mr. Healy spoke about that. It is a concern, as I know Mr. Power will agree, in Kildare, where one of the municipal districts has been left out and cannot access EU transition funding even though, in the past, it would have had the highest level of people working with Bord na Móna. I am talking about the Rathangan area, particularly in the Kildare municipal district that Mr. Power represents. I brought this issue up last week too. I am interested in a response on that.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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A division has been called. Do members want to suspend for that?

The Seanadóirí are not directly affected, but is it okay with Senators O'Loughlin and Andrews if we suspend proceedings? It is. I am sorry, but, if nothing else, the break will give the witnesses plenty of time to think about the answers.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Go raibh míle maith agaibh go léir as an briseadh gearr sin. Táimid chun leanúint ar aghaidh le freagraí ón Seanadóir Fiona O'Loughlin. Who would like to take this? Councillor Power is next.

Mr. Rob Power:

I thank the committee for the time today. It is much appreciated. One of the reasons we are here is that we see this as a very important committee in terms of the influence it has with key Departments, namely, the Department of EU affairs and the Department of public expenditure and reform.

Senator O'Loughlin asked a question about the JTF. As a constituency colleague in Kildare, I know there was some frustration that the MD of the Newbridge-Kildare district was not included in that. A lot of context goes along with that decision. Some of those decisions came from Europe and there was further debate at national level. Many indicators were used to come to the mapping that was arrived at. Initially, we were looking at a scenario where Kildare was not included and it was going to be four counties. It was then expanded and went to an MD level as well, which is where we arrived at that. One of the benefits is that in Kildare we prepared for this scenario and we did a lot of work in looking at the projects that we could potentially fund under the JTF. This preparatory work has been very important and has highlighted a number of areas for future rounds of funding and future progression as well.

The Senator also had a question on where we see priorities for future funding in the context of cohesion funding. One thing that has worked very well at a regional level is the collaboration we have at the local level with the county councils. Using the example of the JTF, one of the key areas where we were able to work with them was to point to local economic and community plans and regional economic plans. This is something that we and the other two assemblies are heavily involved in. We know these plans intricately because we work with the county councils in their implementation. As a result, when funding became available, it was very easy for us to point to that and to decide on a regional basis how this could best be distributed and how we could help support these plans. Regarding future cohesion funding, there is an important role for the regional assembly to play, alongside our county council colleagues, in democratising this funding and making sure it is accountable.

Mr. Andrew McGuinness:

Senator O'Loughlin had another question on how the regional assemblies work well with their local authorities and how we work in providing local community groups and so on with the appropriate tools and information to apply for the various funding streams. I believe that we have fantastic working relationship. I can only speak for Kilkenny County Council and the Southern Regional Assembly but there is room for improvement. Each local authority should have a liaison officer working with it and working between the local authority and the assemblies and the relevant groups that would be interested in different funding streams, to be able to point them in the right direction. We are lacking in that regard but the onus for this is on the local authorities themselves and goes back to central government in terms of funding, because these positions would have to be funded as well. We would benefit greatly right across the country by having that in place and we would see more projects funded more quickly and more easily if we were able to do that. In general, at the moment, we are working quite well but it could be a lot better.

Ms Eileen Mannion:

In relation to the European liaison officers on local authorities, they are absolutely critical. In the Northern and Western Regional Assembly, we are a region in transition. I do not think we are getting enough European funding. We have raised this at local authority level. Last year, we increased our local property rates and we increased our commercial rates to try to bring funding into our local authorities so we could get more from central government to bring in more staff. It is really critical that we have more staff to deal with these kinds of funding applications. The European liaison officer role is really critical for us in Galway and in the wider region. I do not know who will fund that, though. Maybe it is something that could be raised with the committee members to try to get local authorities to put that role in place. Maybe for the bigger local authorities, we could have one officer and perhaps the smaller local authorities could share to ensure we can get the funding that is available through Europe.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Ms Mannion mentioned something that has come out very clear from last week and this week. We will ultimately be doing a report that will reflect the recommendations in consultation with the members. I suspect that an EU officer will be one of the recommendations.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Not so long ago, I was a councillor and a proud member of the Southern Regional Assembly for about ten years. I think I see Mr. David Kelly in the background. Many a battle I had with him. I think about the most recent regional economic and spatial strategy where we were tearing the hair out of our heads over population projections and trying to form alliances with other local authorities so that the big cities were not capturing all that population. Here I am now asking why were we even fighting over population.

I welcome everyone here today. I acknowledge the other directors as well, particularly Ms Clare Bannon, with whom I worked during my time on the European Committee of the Regions. I welcome the submission to the local democracy task force by the Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly. I presume this was on behalf of all the assemblies or maybe was that just on behalf of the Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly? I am not sure if the other assemblies made submissions as well. Yes. Sorry, I did not see the other submissions. I also acknowledge the submission also from the Irish Regions European Office to that local democracy task force.

I will not get into the granular detail of those reports but I do know from my ten years on the regional assemblies that I was very frustrated. Notwithstanding frustrations at the local level within our local authorities and the reserved functions we have, I felt at the regional level we had little or no reserved functions. I want to ask each of the witnesses, based on their own experiences in their own time on the regional assemblies, what reforms and what additional statutory powers might strengthen their role and, indeed, a wider role for the assemblies? Any of the witnesses might want to comment on that. What improved reforms or additional statutory powers would help their roles on the regional assemblies? Do the witnesses share the frustrations that I had over ten years at the lack of reserved functions?

Mr. Micheál Frain:

I completely understand Deputy Murphy's frustration over the ten years there. I am not as long there but I see the regional assemblies, including our own Northern and Western Regional Assembly, as the conduit between the people, local democracy, central government and Europe. It is so plain and simple. There was a phrase coined back in the early 1990s by the now Minister of State, Deputy Marian Harkin, about balanced regional development. It was always felt at the time that if balanced regional development was delivered, then we would not have the issues we have the social, economic and infrastructural issues we have today. If the money was invested at the time, we would not have issues such as this. I know that it was very close to the Cathaoirleach's own heart as well. In my area down in the west of Ireland, there were issues with emigration and things that happened there. A lot of these things all around the country emanate from lack of infrastructure. Unfortunately, there are bad actors and a lot of things that possibly get involved and use the lack of infrastructure to basically highlight their own particular agenda.

The possibility of more cohesion was spoken about again at length last week, including more devolved authority within the local authorities so that they have powers they can use and are given additional powers as opposed to slicing a cake up between the three different regions. In our case, we are a region in transition and we possibly see ourselves as not getting the same investment as other regions. The best of luck to all the other regions. We are all fighting the same challenges. With regard to more cohesion between our stakeholders, we as public representatives on these assemblies are on the ground and listening to the challenges out there. If we had balanced regional development, we would solve a lot of issues around housing, schools and the health issues we have in other areas, and spread more infrastructure around the country. That is the way to deal with it. As was said by my colleagues earlier, giving more powers to the regional assemblies with the local authorities is a way of us delivering on behalf of the State and of the Commission.

Mr. Andrew McGuinness:

I will add to that. I agree with everything Councillor Frain has just said. I believe there is an onus on the local authorities as well. I share the frustration expressed by the Deputy. It is not just in regional assemblies; it is in local democracy right across the board. It is gradually stripped back further and further at every election. In Kilkenny County Council we have two members on the Southern Regional Assembly. There should be a greater input from Kilkenny County Council, for example, by way of including it as an agenda item on their council meetings for monthly reports. This would raise it with all of the other elected members on Kilkenny County Council - or any council - who may not be fully aware of the workings of their local regional assembly. When we look at the amount of money that has been invested in various projects and the amount of success the regional assemblies have had, I believe that the regional assemblies do not get enough public recognition for the work they do. I am not looking for the clap on the back. I am looking for that by way of the general public knowing and understanding what the regional assemblies are there for, what they are all about, and the opportunities they present through their local authorities. The onus is on the local authorities to work a bit better and more publicly with the regional assemblies. That is my opinion.

Mr. David Healy:

One of the things that is striking from the three regions is that our policy focus is very much aligned. We all have the same kind of vision of regional development. It is not that we see it as the regions competing against one another but that we would act with that kind of regional development emphasis and see about ensuring development is well spread and not overly focused. I will address one of the key areas of that. We can see there are some areas where things have not gone the way that we wanted. Within the recent planning legislation, for example, there has been a weakening of the monitoring provisions. They are still there and we as assemblies intend to keep doing the monitoring but we would rather see them strengthened rather than weakened obviously. We are bringing up the Cohesion Fund regional development issue and it would be a major threat if that were to go in the wrong direction.

In terms of pushing to go in the right direction, there are issues about funding. As assemblies, we do not have any independent source of funding. There is, therefore, a bit of a zero-sum game when it comes to the relationship between us and the local authorities to whom we have to go to get money. That would be a significant change. That could help with some of the communications issues that we have around our profile and people's understanding of our role.

There is also a kind of a technical issue with the timing of consultations. As we are responding to public consultations, we are operating on a month-by-month schedule to our meetings. Often, the length of time made available for public consultation is not long enough for our executives to do the research work, prepare a draft and then bring it to our meetings for consideration and discussion if the four-week period does not align. That has not been considered in the design of the legislation and in the setting out of timescales.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I am conscious of time, so I will ask Councillor Coughlan to be brief.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta Ó Murchú as an gceist sin. As has been mentioned, the budget is a big issue. We do not have a budget to spend and that is certainly a big element. More than that, the regional assembly has a lack of identity among ordinary citizens. As I said last week, I think that some members of the regional assembly should be elected. People are appointed from local authorities and the ordinary citizen does not have an affinity with the regional assemblies. There is a democratic deficit there that needs to be made up. We talk about our regional spatial and economic strategy and joined-up thinking in government. The regions can do that. That is the strength of the regions. We can stand back, look at regional policy and allow regions to be planned correctly rather than the ad hoc approach whereby one local authority does something and another does the exact same thing while the two compete with one another for funding. The assemblies have been very important in winning and disbursing European funding in our regions. They need more capacity. The democratic element is also very important.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe. Bhí mé ag éisteacht leo sular tháinig mé anseo. Any time we deal with those on local authorities, the term "democratic deficit" and the issue of the weakening of structures are raised. I do not want to repeat exactly what I said here last week but anyone who has been a councillor in recent years will be aware of those elements. Those who have been councillors for longer periods of time realise that some powers that the councils used to have no longer exist.

In the best-case scenario, there is utter cohesion among the regional assemblies and the RSES and the ERDF work alongside each other. That would ensure a decent piece of planning was done. The other issue arising here is that the wider citizenry will not be aware of this. Even many of those in the local authorities will not be aware of what a regional assembly is. I would not like to question too many of them. What sort of resources do the assemblies need? What would it look like? The assemblies will have had engagement on a North-South basis over many years. How has that worked? Have there been any issues, particularly post Brexit? We will start with that.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

On the resources that would be required, we all attend assembly meetings. In the past, including when the most recent regional spatial and economic strategy was being drafted, chief executives or senior planners from local authorities attended and briefed members. That is not currently occurring. As members, we are attending these meetings without as much support as we should have. We have our democratic mandate but there should be more support for members attending these meetings. The regional spatial and economic strategy is a huge and important document. There needs to be more cohesion from the local authorities in that regard.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is a question of more buy-in from the local authorities.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

I think so but there is also the question of local authorities' capacity. They have a lot to do.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I get that.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

To just take a day off or send a senior planner off to Waterford for the day or to sit down-----

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It means they cannot meet me to discuss live planning-----

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

There are a lot of demands on local authorities and the capacity is just not there to support the regional authorities. I would be critical enough if I felt there was waste at local authority level or if there were people who were surplus to requirements but they are busy. The county development plans are coming up. There is always something. The regional assemblies just do not feature. I recommend having a dedicated officer to focus on this. We have also mentioned reporting up. I would say there was never a motion from a local authority at the Southern Regional Assembly. There certainly was not in my time. Nobody thinks to ask the regional assembly anything and, similarly, as I said at the last meeting, we do not get reports back regularly. It is not factored into the structures or machinery of local government and it needs to be. That goes back to the lack of identity. People do not think about the Southern Regional Assembly as an entity at all.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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They do not consider it all. It operates in an ad hoc way out there and the authorities do not worry about it.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

Yes.

Mr. Rob Power:

On the impact since Brexit, there was a particular piece of work advocating for the Belfast-Dublin economic corridor. At the time, it was agreed that was a very worthwhile project but it was essentially shelved by the secretariat because of Brexit and the uncertainty it brought with it. There is a lot that could be beneficial to the regional assemblies in terms of capacity building. There is a lot of work that the regional assemblies have shown they are more than capable of taking on but that would involve additional capacity and supports for the assemblies. On ERDF funding, we have a three-tier structure in terms of planning. We have three regional assemblies. We only have two funding structures, which do not include the Deputy's regional assembly, which is also our own, the Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly. With regard to ERDF funding, a lot of the paperwork and so on is signed off by the Southern Regional Assembly for Louth and other counties in the region. It is a question of providing that parity and equality between the three. As can be seen here today, there is great collaboration between the three assemblies but collaboration is not the same as accountability. We should have that accountability in the Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is fair to say the framework that is needed is not in place, whether in relation to all of the relationships or proper buy-in.

Mr. Rob Power:

Improvement is needed for sure.

Robert O'Donoghue (Dublin Fingal West, Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for the presentations and welcome back Ms Coughlan. I was on EMRA with Mr. Healy for a number of years. I am genuinely delighted he is in the chair. As a member, he was always far more on top of the brief than I was. Given that the European Commission details on its website that Ireland got €1.4 billion in cohesion policy funding for the period 2021 to 2027, what do the assemblies fear that might be cut to? We met with the Swedish delegation after the meeting last Thursday. Similarly to other countries in the region, Sweden is talking about increased defence spending. That is totally understandable with a next-door neighbour like theirs. I am agriculture spokesperson for my party. We know the farmers are not happy being bundled in with cohesion funding and the regions are not happy being bundled in with farmers. Unfortunately, we will probably need to spend on both in the forthcoming budget but I do not know if the political will is there. I doubt it. Given that, how are the assemblies preparing for the next EU budgetary cycle post 2027? What are the main emerging priorities or biggest challenges the assemblies will face post 2027?

Mr. David Healy:

This proposal for the MFF is the biggest challenge we face. As regional assemblies, we are working together on it. We are also part of the regions for cohesion initiative, which involves 140 regions across the EU campaigning on the issue, and the Cohesion Alliance, an initiative of the Committee of the Regions. This week is regions week in Brussels. The Committee of the Regions is today calling the representatives of all of these regions onto the street outside the European Commission. This is our shared message but it is also shared across the regions of Europe. It is an existential threat to regional development and cohesion funding. That has to be our priority. The idea of a plan B for coping with the current proposal if it goes ahead has not been on our agendas because it is a very serious prospect.

Mr. Rob Power:

Our message to the committee today is that we would really value its input with the Department of public expenditure and the Department responsible for EU affairs when they are taking on that discussion.

At a European level, they will be having a discussion to showcase the value that cohesion funding has brought to bear to date. At a national level, it is very important that the regional assemblies be put on a statutory footing for that funding. That is key. We have really seen the benefit when that European funding is given to the regional level. The cohesion that works between the regional and local levels democratises that funding completely and it has been shown to be valuable time and again.

Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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Fáilte ar ais chuig Ms Coughlan. I apologise for being in and out of the meeting. While I did not hear the presentations, I read through them while others were making their contributions. There were a couple of points. Some of it is revisiting what we discussed with Ms Coughlan at an earlier point. My first question is slightly slanted. Does Ms Coughlan think the regions are makey-uppy? This goes back to the time when there were eight regions, and then two larger regions in 2014. Is there a risk that with the centralisation of cohesion funding, if it is called a new region, Ireland will be back to being one region? Will there be tokenisation of the work that the regional assemblies are currently doing, and they would be powerless to have an input? Basically, does Ms Coughlan think the three regions will exist with the centralisation of cohesion funding? I know the assemblies are fighting that battle.

Mr. Healy mentioned the lack of a plan B. Is there scope to further regionalise and perhaps go back to eight regions in that scenario so that each group of counties could have its own specific voice heard in a more focused way in terms of accessing what might be national funding? We want to have decision-making and the input of funding at the lowest level possible. Everyone here has talked at different stages about the fact that local government is very centralised. However, the assemblies are dealing with that, and we have to live in the real world.

In the context of what exists now, what is the legal barrier preventing every one of the regional authorities from controlling the funds directly, rather than having them channelled through, say, the southern region? Was this a bureaucratic decision? Was this imposed by Europe in some way, shape or form? Was a logic articulated at some stage? That is where I am coming from on that point.

I do not have much else to say as I want to give the witnesses time to speak. President Tütt articulated that from her perspective, and I think the witnesses will agree, she does not like what is coming and is fighting a rearguard action against it. When the committee members ask what we can do, we can, of course, put down parliamentary questions. Can the witnesses suggest any specific things that we should be asking the Minister when appearing before this committee, for example? Are there any pointed questions that we could ask?

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

Certainly, the regions are not makey-uppy. To get back to the regional spatial and economic strategy, if we consider the 1990s, many of the problems then were due to the lack of joined-up thinking. We now have very skilled professionals looking at our natural resources, our labour markets, our labour force and our resources here in Ireland in every sense of the word, and planning for the future. That is something we had not been very good at down through our history. It is evident that balanced economic development still has not taken place, which is a stain on our history. The whole western seaboard still requires a huge amount of infrastructural investment.

The only way to do that is to devolve some of the funding and decision-making power from the Oireachtas. It must be the way. It is the European way of doing things. As I said last week, Europe thinks in regions and is administered in regions. The Local Government (Ireland) Act of 1898 set up county councils here in Ireland; it did not set up regions. We are getting to grips with that idea and that structure. I would certainly rail against changing them or disbanding them in any way. Once we start to change things, we know what happens with boundaries. In Cork county and city, in particular, it takes things a long time to bed in, and there are jealousies and little fiefdoms that need to be protected. That is a waste of time and energy. They are energy sumps.

Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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Would Ms Coughlan choose to keep it at three regions?

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

I would keep the three, strengthen them, democratise them, fund them and allow them to do the jobs they are already successfully doing, although somewhat constrained because of the centralisation of funding. If the cohesion tap is turned off, as has been said, that is an existential threat. It is more than just money. It is about participation in the European project - territorially, socially and economically. All of that must boil down to these units called regions. We must make a better effort to strengthen the regions and create an identity for our local authorities with the regions. It sounds bureaucratic and it is dry, but it has to be done. It is about people being employed to do the job. Who will bell the cat? Who is in charge of making sure that Cork city, Cork county and Kerry County Council are working in tandem with the regional authority, that each is serving the others’ interests and that everybody is on the same page? That is really what needs to happen. I think that comes down to people and resources being allocated towards that.

Ms Eileen Mannion:

The regions operate in the context of the national planning framework, so we have to be a vehicle through which the national policy is driven. For example, the Northern and Western Regional Assembly must deliver on the MATS for Galway.

We have to maintain the three regions because we cannot look at things in isolation. With regard to boundaries, we have worked on the western rail corridor from Athenry to Claremorris, covering two counties, and also the link from Collooney to Sligo, which is in another county. It is important that the regional assemblies look at the bigger picture rather than just looking at things in isolation with the local authorities.

Several speakers referred to people not knowing about the regional assemblies. I have been 16 years a councillor and just one year on the regional assembly. To my shame, I really was not aware of the work of the regional assemblies, although they are doing great work. Mr. McGuinness suggested that it should be on the local authority agenda to have monthly meetings to report on this. It is a great idea. I am sure many other councillors who are not on the assembly are not aware of the great work that is going on there. It is important, in order to let people know the importance of the work that is going on, to have it on the agenda. We should include councillors, perhaps by inviting them to a meeting once a year so they know what is going on.

Mr. Andrew McGuinness:

I agree with the previous speakers. I definitely do not think the regional assembly areas are makey-uppy. We could say the same about some of our local election boundaries as well.

Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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I am talking more about the perception.

Mr. Andrew McGuinness:

The Deputy is right about the perception. To follow on from the previous speaker, there would be merit in a policy document or an agreed set of guidelines from the national Government to the local authorities on how local authorities work with regional assemblies - not how regional assemblies work with local authorities, but the other way around. It should include things like having it as an item on our monthly agenda to inform all the elected members of the workings of regional assemblies and the opportunities that are presented by working with regional assemblies. That onus needs to be forced upon local authorities throughout the country. The only way of doing that is through an agreed policy or set of guidelines that would come down from the national Government.

Mr. Micheál Frain:

As my colleagues have said concerning the three regions, to go back to the splintered way it was before would not be right. We are each unique. We are doing similar work but we are very unique in our own areas. For instance, we spoke about the other programmes we work on. In the Northern and Western Regional Assembly, an example would be the national planning framework, where the city of Derry and Donegal County Council are working together on a project. That is unique. At our monthly meeting this Friday, we will have a presentation from a particular community organisation that is working on a shared Ireland application. That is not unique to us and any of the other assemblies can work on that. We have partners working within our region and in east Belfast. There are very similar socioeconomic backgrounds in east Belfast and the west of Ireland, although it is hard to believe, and we are working on projects like that.

That strength of the regional authority is that we are bringing the expertise from those particular regions and reaching across because, due to what happened with Brexit, funding streams in the North have probably dried up.

That is another example of it, as is what we were working on in the context of the national planning framework, which was unique, with Derry city and Donegal County Council.

Mr. David Healy:

I agree with everything that has just been said. To address the specific question about EMRA and the RDF funding, it is our understanding that this was an administrative issue in 2015 and that, as a new assembly was established, it was not seen to be the time to transfer the funding responsibility. That time has certainly long passed, however. It should have happened already.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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We will go to Deputy Scanlon next. I have to step out, so might somebody be willing to take the Chair? I propose Deputy O'Donoghue. Is that agreed? Agreed. I apologise. I will be back in about 20 minutes.

Eamon Scanlon (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentation. It was very informative. We had Ms Coughlan at a meeting last week, which raised many questions as well. I certainly do not think the number of assemblies should be reduced. If anything, it should be increased. The problems in the north west are totally different from the problems in Cork or Kerry or other such areas. It is very important that we keep the number of assemblies as they are. I recognise the good work being done. People are right to say, as regards local authority members, that the information on the ground is not getting out there as to the work of the assemblies. That is very important. One suggestion may be that a member of the assembly attend the monthly council meetings. I know there is not an assembly member in every county, but at least if it could be covered, there would be local press and more people hearing about what is happening. It would be very important to do that because it is not known, quite honestly. People do not know what is happening out there in relation to the regional assemblies.

As regards the assemblies preparing for the next EU funding cycle post 2027, what emerging priorities or challenges do the witnesses foresee for Ireland's regions? The reason I raise that is because last week, when we met members of the Committee of the Regions, it came up that the CAP funding going forward could be competing against other funding within the cohesion funds. That would be a very bad idea. I would not agree with that at all. We should project that CAP funding because it is keeping family farms alive and keeping people on the land. If anything happened to that or if it were reduced, it would have serious consequences for the north west in particular and, I am sure, for other areas as well.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

I thank Deputy Scanlon for his question. He may remember that last week I did not get a chance to address it. The president did. We are reinforcing some of the points we made last week, and I am glad to be here to do that. That delineation should be made in Brussels. Cohesion funds should stand alone. CAP funds should stand alone. There is no way, either here in the Oireachtas or anywhere else on this island, that cohesion funding should be competing with CAP funding. CAP funding, as the Deputy says, is essential for family farms, family farm units and our agriculture sector. Similarly, cohesion funding is essential for our regional development. They are separate and they are integral. As President Kata Tütt said here last week, because of the dangers coming down the line as regards tariffs and defence strategy and whatever the case may be, these old policies are now just being lumped together into one big bag: "Let the national governments deal with that while we deal with AI, big tech and defence." That is not good enough.

We need to have cohesion policies stand alone in order that we can leverage the expertise we have in our regional assemblies that have now bedded in and that are working well. Yes, we can improve them, but there is always room for improvement in every structure, in every system, and we have recognised how these things can be done. If we implement some of those suggestions, the wheels will be greased a little more and there will be more of an element of knowledge about the regional assemblies among the citizenry. That is a piece of work which can be done. However, there will be no point in doing it if there is no cohesion funding. There are other funding streams from Europe and there are other benefits from Europe besides money, but the CAP is the CAP, cohesion is cohesion and, in my opinion, never the twain should meet.

Mr. Rob Power:

I am happy to come in and add to that. We probably see a two-phase approach to this process. One, as Ms Coughlan has highlighted, is the European discussion, and hopefully at a European level we can stop this amalgamation of funding. Failing that, what we believe may happen is that member states would be given the authority to distribute the funding as well. At a national level, we would like to put the regional assemblies on a statutory footing for funding and ensure at a national level that cohesion funding is still available and being maintained and resourced well. We have used that funding very well in the past and it has served our regions and our county very well. Again, there is a dichotomy whereby in Ireland we go to the European table to discuss things, we are but one small island on the edge and we say that we need parity of esteem and to be involved in these conversations. There is a disconnect there when we bring that funding home and say, "Actually, we will manage it all centrally now and we will not allow the regions or the counties to get involved." If we are going to preach at a European level that we should have that equal voice at the table, we need to bring that home and say we are going to make sure that the funding will be democratised at national level.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I want to come back to the question of identity. I will make my position very clear. I am a champion of local government and of regional government. I believe in the empowerment of local and regional government and the better resourcing of local and regional government. I want to go back to my time as a member of the regional assembly and how frustrated I was and the lack of a reserved function. Sometimes you have to work hard to create your own identity with the deck of cards you have been handed. When you take a seat at a regional assembly, you are representative of your local authority.

I know the directors will be tearing the hair out of their heads but I remember I used to often submit notices of motion to my regional assembly. They were not used very often. It is allowed for certainly under the standing orders of the southern regional assembly. I remember in the lead-up to a budget that I submitted a notice of motion looking for a resolution to be adopted at the regional level calling on the Minister for Finance and the Minister for public expenditure to better resource local authorities. I encourage the witnesses, despite whatever resistance they get from their directors, to have more debate in the chambers of their regional assemblies. Have a row in the chamber of your regional assembly. Issue communications to Ministers from your regional assembly. Issue press releases from your regional assemblies. They can be debates about housing, climate, housing adaptation grants, roads funding - whatever. Create your own identity, notwithstanding the ambition we have, and that will be a slow-moving vehicle. Do what I did. Have those debates. Submit notices of motion and make your regional assembly a bit more like the chamber of your local authority. Have those rows.

Ultimately the challenges at the local level will be the same challenges as at the regional level. There will be cross-party support, but definitely adopt those resolutions and send them up to this House of democracy in Dáil Éireann. That is just a bit of feedback.

Mr. Andrew McGuinness:

I thank Deputy Murphy for his words, wisdom and advice. I agree with everything he just said. The message I take from it is elected members on the regional assemblies should be more active about pushing the work of the assembly and informing our colleagues in our home local authorities. As an example, I was elected chair of the regional assembly not so long ago and a photograph appeared in the local paper of me with the chain on. I immediately had the interest of all the other members of the local authority who were wondering where the chain came from and what the position was. I explained it to them and then every second person on the street was stopping me to ask about it. What I took from that was that every event I attend, even this one, I might put something on my social media or send something to the local paper. It raises awareness of not only the work we are doing as local public representatives and the different positions we hold within local democracy, but also of the workings of the regional assembly and what people may not be aware of. We recently had the fantastic news in Kilkenny that our old library has been funded for a new project under the THRIVE programme. Again, the general public assume that is coming from the Government or Kilkenny County Council. Of course the local authorities will want their kudos as well, but the regional assemblies need to be recognised a lot more for the work they are doing, the funding they are providing and the fact that certain projects within your city or town would never have come to fruition if it were not for the assistance of the relevant regional assembly.

Mr. David Healy:

I thank the Deputy for the question. Our experience in the Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly has been - it is not just because the director is sitting behind me as it also applies to her predecessor - of a very high level of co-operation and respect for the fact we have the sign-off on submissions and the legal responsibility of making the RSES. The engagement is very constructive, but the Deputy is right about asserting ourselves as an assembly. We did that in making the last RSES, where we pushed quite strongly for greater ambition for public transport, came into a bit of conflict with the NTA which did not want to do that and ended up with the Minister appointing an inspector to figure out how ambitious we should be. That was a worthwhile process because we got something more ambitious than the NTA was aiming at for our region. As we go into the RSES we will be facing some of the same issues. One of the big challenges we have is how we do spatial planning, how we integrate our spatial planning with our transport planning, how we plan in particular the public transport networks and how we analyse and study that in order to meet our climate goals and remain within planetary boundaries. As we target that there will be a bit of tension with other levels of government.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Dundalk Chamber of Commerce will be delighted Mr. Power has brought up the Dublin-Belfast corridor, so I thank him for that. This is a follow-on question. The witnesses have laid out what they have seen as the flaws in the system and how it could work really well, and we get that. There should be a better framework, better buy-in, better resourcing and more sets of chains so everybody knows. I could do with a couple of them myself. In fairness, I get it. When it works it works and it is as simple as that. Will the witnesses give us an example of some work regarding funding or whatever that has worked but could work better in a better framework and how that can be done? Does anyone have almost a battle plan or a proposal for how this could work and be integrated so we could do something more? There is an onus on us and whoever else from a point of view of ensuring it gets in front of someone, goes on the agenda and we make it happen as best we can. We could have this same conversation next year, no more than when we talk about the lack of powers that exist at local authority level.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta as an gceist iontach sin. An example of something that has worked very well in Cork city, which I mentioned last week, was the Mary Elmes Bridge. Every time I walk over it I say to whoever I am walking over it with that it was funded by European money. It is a footbridge over the River Lee and I think that funding was put in place because Cork city has the European funding officer and that is why the cogs were brought together.

Last week the president of the Committee of the Regions and I met the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, and he is certainly very receptive, especially regarding cohesion, but he also understood this is a bigger picture as regards our participation in the European project. As I mentioned last week, we are not seeing the European Union flag on our signs anymore because we are a net contributor, perhaps, but there are projects that are funded by the European Union. The visuals, the signage, the information and the dissemination of that information that this is Europe at work for you is very important. For the six of us, as local authority members, being here is very important. Anybody who has been on a local authority knows the County and City Management Association wields a lot of power. My very effective chief executive has asked me whether I know of any funds to do with coastal erosion. Cork is a big coastal county and we are constantly battling coastal erosion. It is about trying to marry the expertise from the region to the local and back through the Oireachtas.

I said it last week as well but the Seanad in particular, because it is elected by county councillors in the main, has the potential to have a really strong European dimension, with the regional assemblies. In my fairy tale of this there would be some directly-elected regional assembly members with some of them being elected to the Seanad and they would be specialists in regional government and would be on this committee, for example. There would be that level of legitimacy through the government. It would be your job to represent your region in the Seanad and in the Oireachtas. It would bring the European dimension into further focus in the Oireachtas. We are dealing with the real world and I accept that, but in answer to the Deputy’s question about whether anybody had that in front of them, the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, did last week. He gets the cohesion question. We are at a very critical point in that with Ireland taking on the Presidency of the European Council in the second half of 2026. The agendas are being set out now and we will have power to move the dial on that agenda. I am asking the committee, as Members of the Oireachtas, to keep that on the agenda. I hope members are persuaded it is very important to keep those two funds separate. As a peripheral island it should be our primary ask, not only for us but the many regions across Europe that will benefit for cohesion policy. As Kata Tütt said here last week, the cohesion budget is not astronomical. It is not a huge amount of money, per se, but it must be ring-fenced for regional development.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Obviously the protection of cohesion and the budget is a point that has been well made over the last two weeks. On the wider piece, whatever that looks like, whether it is, as Councillor Coughlan says, her utopian version or whatever-----

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

Really?

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Well, something needs to happen. It is something we could do and we could deal with privately as a piece of work, because we probably need to get something that is more formulated into a proposal.

That can be a starting point and there can be a wish list for what people can live with to find something that works because there is best practice. The witnesses have lived it and know what does and does not work and where the blockages are. Again, it means a real relationship with those that wield the power at local authority level and beyond.

Mr. Rob Power:

That was a very tangible example. I can share another one with him. Athy in Kildare has recently a regeneration of Emily Square, which was the beneficiary of €2.7 million worth of funding from the just transition fund. Why did that work well? The fund was managed in Ireland by the Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly. I was lucky to be part of those early discussions as chair of the assembly where we brought together several departments. There was really good co-operation between the departments to the extent that we had local municipal district members on the assembly involved in it and Fáilte Ireland. Ultimately, this funding was led through the Fáilte Ireland regenerative tourism programme. We have worked hand in glove with the local authority to say what is on the agenda and how we are going to regenerate it. This was one project that fitted well within the just transition boundaries. We also look at the regional economic plan, and the local economic plans are working hand in glove with that to drive more business to Athy and utilise the food and beverage expertise in the town so that when those businesses come to look at Athy, they see a rejuvenated town with Emily Square and all the work that has been done there celebrating the culture with the Shackleton museum and the 1798 murals and working with other cultural aspects such as the Maid of Athy music trail, which has been really beneficial for the town. A lot of that stems from just transition funding, which was managed by the regional assembly.

To flip the Deputy's question about how we can do it better, it is an example of a brilliant programme but the concern is that this funding will go away. That is a major concern, particularly in terms of the just transition fund. We have set a really good benchmark in terms of the quality of projects we want to see there, but to see that funding disappear now given the climate disaster we are still in, which is worsening, is very concerning. That would be a major concern for us in the regional assembly.

Mr. Micheál Frain:

As a person who is relatively new to the regional assembly and the local authority, a number of programmes stand out to me. Just transition funding is seen all over the country as a shining light for the development of communities. The other big ticket item is Thrive. There is huge potential in Thrive. The criteria might be changed slightly, which I welcome, for populations that are smaller. Dereliction is a huge issue in local authorities. Again, what these regional assemblies can do working with them in dealing with dereliction is the answer to many of the issues in local authorities. Thrive has huge potential to deal with a lot of dereliction in villages and towns.

Regarding how we can do things better, that was part of it. My background is being a volunteer in the Roscommon LEADER partnership for years. Our regional assemblies deal with infrastructural development but I see social and economic development as huge as well. They are interlinked. If I wanted a wish list as to where we could improve things from a regional assemblies point of view with local authorities, it would also include social and economic development. We have seen the risk to programmes and us being piled in with the CAP. The LEADER programme is under serious threat from very similar issues. We have a role working with local community development committees, local authorities and LEADER companies and adding to our stock of social and economic development as well infrastructural development. It goes without saying that this vacuum is there and nobody is taking it up to run with it and go back to Europe. That is the sort of mantle we need to take up if we are on about putting ourselves on a statutory basis. That is where we will make a huge difference in the lives of everyone in our areas and communities.

Ms Eileen Mannion:

There is a lot of red tape. Things take an awfully long time to be delivered. I do not know if that is across everything but it really is an issue. You hear of funding being announced for a project but it is several years later before it actually comes to fruition. This needs to be addressed. My colleague spoke about Thrive, the RDF and LEADER. LEADER is a huge concern where I am from because it helps small local projects - not the big €5 million or €10 million projects but small local projects. It helps to ensure that small businesses can get funding to improve what they have and to employ one or two people locally and support local projects. It is small money but it is really important and it is of huge concern that this budget is going to be cut. I agree with the point about CAP and all those forms of funding. We have to make sure there are no cuts to those. Small family farms are really important for our regions so we are looking to this committee and to our MEPs to ensure that these issues are highlighted and that we do not lose funding. The big concern involves the multi-annual financial framework whereby they are looking to bring all the funding in together. That will destroy the assemblies and our regional areas. It needs to be kept separate.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I agree 100%. We all have big concerns. From working as councillors or their involvement with organisations and businesses, the witnesses have seen everything from LEADER right through and the work it does. We need all the tentacles to be connected to each other. We need everyone talking to each other and an overall plan that we do not waste. It looks like this could be more difficult when we are already looking at a pot that could be a lot smaller for many reasons with which we all have a difficulty. We will probably have to bring it up at a private meeting. It is easy to say that there is food for thought but over the past two weeks and particularly today, there has been a fair amount such that we need to put some work together to see how we can put a proposal together for something that is better for making sure the organised structures are fit for purpose. It is all about delivering for all of us and the communities from which we come.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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This was a really engaging discussion. Mr. Power brought up a very practical example that is making such a huge difference not just to the physical appeal of Athy but also in terms of lifting the spirits of people who live there. Are there are any cross-Border or transnational projects that have been led by any of the assemblies? Sometimes that is how we can secure funding.

In terms of monitoring socioeconomic trends, do the witnesses have any evidence or examples of how that has supported funding or redirected funding to address some of the issues that may have emerged following those trends?

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

The Sligo region has been involved with the Welsh regional assemblies. There has been some really good collaboration down through time. Again, it is about best practice. Especially post Brexit, the wish is that those relationships would be strengthened. They are our nearest neighbours at the southern region. That has been done very well.

At our most recent meeting, there was a presentation about some research on some of our skills shortages in the southern region and looking at how we could link with our diaspora to fulfil some of these skills shortages. There is certainly a transnational element to our research, funding and planning for the future in the southern region. I know that work with the Welsh has been ongoing and has been very beneficial even as regards language and minority languages. There is great scope for that in a post-Brexit situation.

Obviously, as a member of the Committee of the Regions, as a group and a delegation we are looking at best practice across Europe, learning from it and bringing it back to the regional assemblies and speaking about it. It is not formalised and it would be nice if it were joined up.

Mr. Andrew McGuinness:

To give another short example, the URBACT project is closer to home. In Kildare, it has been run in Naas and Athy. One example of how it was run is that Naas was connected with a lot of cities that were facing challenges that might be faced by a commuter belt city. Great learning was shared across Europe on that.

I will tell one anecdote. Naas was connected with Petrinja in Croatia. People may have heard the name in the context of an earthquake that took place in 2020. The councillors in Naas mobilised support - it was during the Covid-19 pandemic - and a lorry load of support equipment was transferred from Naas to that town in Croatia because of the familiarity and friendships made through the project. Something that was built as a planning project evolved into having a social element, which showed great cohesion between the regions. There was great learning.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Does anyone else want to come in? No. Did any of the witnesses feel there was anything they did not get a chance to say and want to add at this stage? No.

I thank the witnesses for taking the time to be with us today. On behalf of the committee, I thank them for their engagement, which has allowed us to explore the detail of cohesion and rural development funding in the context of the current EU budget and the proposals for the MFF, which the committee will also examine. As I said earlier, in conjunction with the meeting we held last week with Councillor Coughlan and the president of the European Committee of the Regions, Ms Tütt - I am always afraid of mispronouncing it - we got a lot of information. We will put it together in a report and the witnesses will receive a copy of that when it is available.

We will now go into private session before adjourning until 3.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 22 October, for a private meeting.