John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies have been received from a number of colleagues: Senator Joe O'Reilly, Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl, Deputy Cathy Bennett and Deputy Brian Brennan. There is a British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly meeting this weekend.

I advise members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask members partaking via MS Teams that prior to making their contribution to the meeting they confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if members' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

As the ambassador will be aware, the committee will publish the opening statement on its website following the meeting.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

The first item on our agenda is to engage with the ambassador of Ukraine. I welcome H. E. Larysa Gerasko to the meeting to provide an update on the current situation in Ukraine. The format of the meeting, ambassador, is that we will hear your opening statement followed by questions and answers with the members of the committee. I ask members to be concise, as usual. Again, you are welcome, ambassador, and I pass the floor over to you.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

It is an honour to address this distinguished committee and provide an update on the current situation in Ukraine, including the ongoing colonial war, the challenges we face and the critical support we continue to need. Let me begin by expressing, on behalf of the people of Ukraine, our sincere gratitude for Ireland's unwavering support during this unprecedented and deeply challenging time. Above all, we are profoundly grateful to the Irish Government and the people of Ireland for their immediate and steadfast support for the Ukrainian people displaced by Russia's war of aggression.

Today marks 1,329 days since Russia launched its full-scale invasion of Ukraine, a war of conquest and denial, not only against our territorial integrity but against our very right to exist as a free and democratic nation. This is the largest and most brutal war Europe has witnessed in generations. Its consequences extend far beyond Ukraine, threatening global security and undermining the rules-based international order.

Over the past month, the intensity of Russian aggression has escalated. In the first six months of the year, the Russian army launched over 30,000 guided aerial bombs, over 11,000 Shahed drones, over 9,000 other types of attack drones and more than 1,000 missiles, including ballistic ones.

This is not simply warfare; this is state-sponsored terrorism against civilians, calculated, deliberate and industrial in its cruelty. Russia strikes under the cover of night, like a predator - a thief of life - exposing the cowardice and brutality that define its campaign. Faced with this reality, we urge our partners to strengthen Ukraine's air defence and continue providing non-lethal military assistance. Each missile or drone intercepted means lives saved and infrastructure preserved.

The battlefield situation remains extremely tense. Moscow pours vast resources into achieving its goals, deploying every soldier, every shell, every drone it can muster. Yet, despite suffering heavy losses, it has failed to achieve a single strategic objective this year. Thanks to the courage of Ukraine's defenders and the steadfast support of our international partners, Russia is not winning and Ukraine is not losing. Cities and towns across the country face daily shelling. Entire communities are being levelled. What Russia cannot control, it seeks to destroy.

The Kremlin's war goes far beyond the battlefield. One of its key objectives is to cripple Ukraine's energy sector - to freeze our people, paralyse essential services and collapse our economy. Since February 2022, Ukraine has lost 9.2 GW of generating capacity. Nearly 80% of our thermal power generation is destroyed, and over 800 district heating facilities have been damaged or ruined. Distribution networks have also suffered significant losses. The Russians have struck severely, damaging oil and gas infrastructure, as well as storage facilities. The scale and co-ordination of these strikes have increased dramatically, with drones and missiles deployed in record numbers.

As a result, more than 12 million families now face the prospect of freezing temperatures in the coming winter. Across the country, Ukrainian repair teams are working around the clock to restore power and keep essential services running. The extent of the damage is enormous and much of the destroyed equipment must be rebuilt from scratch. Ukraine urgently needs sustained international support for its energy sector, including new and refurbished equipment to restore critical infrastructure. This is not about power, but about people. It is about ensuring that Russia's campaign of intimidation fails and that solidarity and resilience prevail. We appreciate Ireland's support in helping to restore Ukraine's critical infrastructure, particularly in the energy sector, by providing generators and other essential equipment that has helped stabilise this vital system.

Russia continues its relentless assault on Ukraine's energy infrastructure, accompanied by cyber attacks and nuclear blackmail. This deadly combination endangers not only Ukraine, but the entire continent. The Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, the largest in Europe, recently lost stable external power for nearly three weeks and had to rely on emergency diesel generators. On 6 October, the International Atomic Energy Agency, IAEA, recorded multiple shelling incidents near the facility. A single strike could unleash a nuclear catastrophe that would endanger all of Europe. Recently, a Russian missile strike cut power to Chornobyl, a chilling reminder of a tragedy that still lives in our memory. We Ukrainians continue to carry the bitter legacy of Chornobyl 1986, a disaster that taught the world a painful truth: once unleashed, nuclear danger knows no borders, no flags, no nations.

Distinguished members of the committee, Russia’s war of aggression against Ukraine continues to cause immense human suffering and economic devastation. Families have lost their homes, thousands of businesses have been destroyed, and key sectors of the economy remain deeply disrupted. A just recovery requires not only assistance, but accountability. The lawful use of frozen Russian assets must become central to reconstruction - to rebuild infrastructure, support victims, and enable the return of displaced Ukrainians. Nearly $300 billion in Russian sovereign assets remain frozen globally, including €1.87 billion in Ireland. These resources must serve peace, not remain unused while destruction continues.

We wish to express our gratitude to Ireland for its consistent and principled support - humanitarian, economic, and political - from non-lethal assistance and stabilisation programmes to the construction of shelters in schools, de-mining, restoration of critical infrastructure, etc. We also commend its clear stance on the fair and lawful use of frozen Russian assets. Ukraine’s recovery is already underway. Even under attack, communities are rebuilding and businesses are reopening. Swift international support can accelerate this progress and promote lasting stability. The Ukraine Recovery Conference in Rome secured over €15 billion in agreements, including support for defence and resilience, which are vital for long-term growth. We value Ireland’s continued contribution and encourage Irish businesses to engage in Ukraine’s recovery. Even during war, Ukraine remains open for investment, offering strong partnerships and shared opportunities for peace and prosperity.

Dear Deputies and Senators, Russia’s ability to sustain its war effort depends on circumventing international and EU sanctions. It continues to acquire restricted technologies through third-country channels and shadow networks, including components manufactured in Europe. Each loophole in export controls and the use of third-country entities to exploit them enables Russia to obtain critical technological components and dual-use materials that fuel its war machine. This directly results in more missiles, more drones and, ultimately, more civilian casualties. We are grateful for Ireland’s steadfast support in EU sanction packages and encourage continued efforts, particularly in advancing the 19th EU sanctions package. We urge stronger measures to counter the so-called shadow fleet used to circumvent oil restrictions and facilitate drone attacks. Reducing the oil price cap to $30 per barrel, alongside stricter export controls and more robust enforcement, would significantly undermine Russia’s ability to sustain its war effort.

Russia’s colonial war extends beyond destruction of civilian and critical infrastructure, it reaches into the lives of Ukrainian families through the forcible deportation and indoctrination of our children. Thousands of children have been illegally transferred, adopted or conscripted into the Russian military to fight against their own homeland. Their identities are falsified, their ties to Ukraine severed and their futures put in jeopardy. These actions amount to a systematic unprecedented genocide, targeting the very future of the Ukrainian people. Russia attacks the very essence of childhood itself to erase Ukrainian identity. The International Criminal Court has issued arrest warrants for Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova, a landmark move underscoring the moral and legal gravity of these crimes. Justice must go beyond leaders. Those who have adopted and hidden Ukrainian children under false pretences must also be held accountable. We deeply appreciate Ireland's membership of the international coalition for the return of Ukrainian children, and the Taoiseach, Micheál Martin, for participating in the high-level meeting of the coalition on 23 September in New York. We look forward to Ireland’s continued active engagement within this vital humanitarian effort.

Holding Russia accountable for war crimes, including the torture of Ukrainian prisoners of war and civilians, and crimes against humanity remains essential. Russia's withdrawal from the European convention against torture is a de facto admission of guilt and a blatant attempt to avoid responsibility for systematic human rights violations. By disregarding fundamental international norms, Russia's leadership seeks to place itself above the law, but justice must prevail. For Ukrainians, justice means more than prosecutions. It means enforceable verdicts and real accountability. An independent international tribunal dedicated to the crime of aggression is essential to closing accountability gaps and upholding the rule of law. We commend Ireland’s commitment to advancing the special tribunal for the crime of aggression.

Dear members of the committee, no one desires peace more than Ukraine - more than the Ukrainian people who have suffered years of bombardment, loss, and displacement. Putin’s so-called negotiations were never genuine.

They were a smokescreen to buy time and manipulate public perception, create the illusion of dialogue and convince political figures that Russia engages diplomacy. His goal remains clear. It is to eliminate Ukraine, its language, its history, its national identity and the very foundation of its statehood.

This war was never only about Ukraine. From the outset, Russia has sought to undermine European unity and democracy and restore imperial influence through propaganda, disinformation and misinformation and political subversion. It wages a hybrid war without borders, corroding trust in institutions and truth itself. Ukraine’s security is Europe’s security. In the absence of shared security, no nation is safe. When Russian drones violate the airspace of Poland, Romania, Estonia and other European countries, they expose the undeniable reality that no border is truly secure, either in the east or in the west. These attacks test Europe’s entire security architecture and challenge the very principle of sovereignty on which our Continent's peace and stability are built. Yesterday, President Zelenskyy stated:

Russia’s war in Europe remains the biggest source of global instability. And it depends on all of you whether this war will end too. Putin can be forced into peace – just like any other terrorist.

By stopping Russia's aggression now, we are not only defending our people, we are defending Europe and the values on which it stands. Every drone, missile or tank destroyed in Ukraine is one less threat to others throughout the Continent. That is why Russia must be defeated. True peace requires deterrence through strength. We need real, enforceable security guarantees, not another Budapest memorandum, which failed to protect us. Together with our partners, we are building a genuine system of guaranteed security, one that stands above political cycles and beyond shifting interests. A total of 35 nations, including Ireland, have already joined this effort as a part of our coalition of the willing.

Ukraine’s future is firmly anchored in the European Union. Ukraine has successfully completed the bilateral screening process with the European Commission. President Zelenskyy noted that by early November our country will be technically ready in respect of all six negotiating clusters. It is crucial that the first negotiating cluster is opened simultaneously for Ukraine and Moldova. This would ensure fair treatment in the enlargement process. Allowing this process to be obstructed by unilateral vetoes would only serve the interests of those seeking to divide Europe rather than to strengthen it. On this path, we especially value the support of our friends and partners. We are grateful for Ireland's strong and consistent support for our European integration. We anticipate that Ireland’s EU Council Presidency in the second half of 2026 will offer a new opportunity to accelerate the negotiation process. We look forward to close co-operation during this period.

We are living in a new and dangerous era. The threats we face, whether on the battlefield, in cyberspace, or through the manipulation of truth all stem from one source, which is Russia’s ongoing war of aggression against Ukraine. Our unity is stronger than their destruction. Our values are deeper than their lies. Ukraine stands not only for its own freedom but also for the principles that bind us as Europeans. We thank Ireland once again for its solidarity in sanctions, in humanitarian aid, in supporting justice and in standing with Ukraine on the path toward peace, security and EU membership. Go raibh maith agaibh.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Gerasko for her very comprehensive briefing. It is her first visit to the new foreign affairs and trade committee and we are very grateful for the time she has put into the very detailed presentation. It brings us right up to date. I will go straight to questions. Senator Ahearn has the floor.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach. Ms Gerasko is very welcome to the new committee on foreign affairs. I thank her for that work she has done in recent years in Ireland in supporting those Ukrainian citizens who are temporarily here to help them to make lives of their own. Does she know how many Ukrainian citizens are here at present? From my experience of speaking with them, especially mothers of children, they have really set up a life for themselves here, particularly the children. We get a sense that, not for a vast majority but certainly for a proportion of them, it has been so long that they have almost started new lives here. They and their kids are happy here. The children are getting an education and they want to continue this. It is it Ms Gerasko's view that a lot of Ukrainian families want to remain?

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

Ireland has granted temporary protection status to more than 100,000, perhaps 120,000, Ukrainians. As far as I know, many people have returned to Ukraine or moved to other countries. We guess that more than 70,000 with temporary protection status still live here. Of course, many families have launched new lives. It is very hard to predict how many of them will return to Ukraine. It is my opinion that perhaps 30% will prefer to stay here. Do not forget that many Ukrainians who now live in Ireland are from occupied territories.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Yes.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

They moved from towns and villages close to the front line which, although now under Ukrainian control, were destroyed by Russia during military operations. Those who left occupied territories do not have anywhere to return to. As Senator Ahearn knows, we have 11 million internally displaced people in Ukraine. We are facing many challenges to accommodate our Ukrainian citizens, even after evacuation from the front line. We are doing everything. One of the priorities of the President and the Government is to encourage people to return to Ukraine after the end of the war when conditions will allow them to do so.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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It is funny Ms Gerasko says that because President Zelenskyy said the same thing on 24 August, when I represented the committee at a one-hour meeting with him. The resilience of President Zelenskyy, all elected members and the people is phenomenal. Ms Gerasko speaks about Ukraine rebuilding itself. The difference between Kyiv two months ago and Kyiv when I was there three years ago is incredible.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

Yes, it is incredible.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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The rebuilding is happening as the war continues. That seems abnormal, but it is happening.

Ms Gerasko spoke about Ireland's role as part of the EU in helping to rebuild Ukraine. Ms Aliona Shkrum, is involved in the rebuilding of Ukraine as a new minister. She was speaking about the EU countries. She said that ten of the 27 had appointed envoys to Ukraine on behalf of their countries. In the media, other things take prominence. Certainly, Gaza's profile has greater prominence this week and ministers in different countries have to deal with different matters. However, the UK has appointed a Ukrainian envoy, as have some EU countries. Is that something Ireland should do? When we talk about encouraging businesses to support, invest in and help Ukraine, would it help to have a political person appointed as Ukrainian envoy? It has helped in other countries. Would it help in Ireland as well?

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

I thank Senator Ahern for the question. It would be helpful for Irish businesses to get more knowledge about the potential market for investment. A few Irish companies have already invested during the war, such as Kingspan and CRH, and there are those that have stated that they are ready to invest in Ukraine after the war. Of course, a special envoy from the Government of Ireland would be helpful to build closer connections between business in Ukraine, the Government of Ukraine and the Government of Ireland. It would be appreciated.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Almost the only issue that seems to resonate with the President of America is displaced children who have been lost during the war. Returning those children seems to be the only issue on which the President is constantly supportive. What role can Ireland, as part of the EU, play in bringing back those children? They number more than 20,000 at this stage.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

The confirmed number of children is over 20,000. We have documents and evidence that these children were abducted and actually forcibly displaced to Russia. However, we are working hard just to get more information and more documents to confirm other cases because according to our data, the number is higher. The actual number is more like 100,000. For instance, parents lost their children. They were taken under the pretext of summer camps in occupied territories and were moved deeper into regions of Russia and parents cannot find them. Of course, Russia does not recognise or confirm this fact. In other cases, children lost their relatives, either parents or grandparents. Russia more or less communicates with relatives, but if these children lost relatives, Russia does not want to communicate with Ukrainian authorities. We use mediators, for instance, Qatar is one of the mediators in these cases, to try to return our children. A few months ago, just a few of them were returned. Last December, we invited our commissioner of children's rights to Ireland. We had a discussion at an event at the Institute of International and European Affairs, IIEA, and she brought with her two abducted teenagers who had been returned to Ukraine. They shared their stories. Believe me, we have so many such cases.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I am going to stop the ambassador there. We can come back to this. I will ask some follow-up questions but I need to move on. A few of our MEPs have raised this directly in the European Parliament. Our colleague, Barry Andrews, is one who has raised the matter consistently.

Noel McCarthy (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the ambassador and admire her courage and the courage of the Ukrainian people throughout the war. Her presentation was very good. I have one or two questions. Will the ambassador brief the committee on the current humanitarian and security situation within Ukraine, particularly now as winter approaches?

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

As I mentioned in my statement, the situation is very hard right now. For instance, a few days ago on 10 October, Russia launched approximately 500 air drones as well as ballistic missiles in one night. They mostly targeted critical infrastructure throughout Ukraine, not only in Kyiv or in the eastern or southern parts of Ukraine. They targeted Lviv in the western part of Ukraine. The attacks were literally everywhere. Even Kyiv and many other regions were left without electricity, heat and water. Russia blackmails the civilian population through such attacks. Recently, Russia has intensified such attacks. As I mentioned, we are repairing every single day. For instance, my parents are living without electricity and water for, I believe, a third day. The first aim is to intimidate people, to put pressure on civilians in order that they would, in Putin's opinion, put pressure on the President and the Government for capitulation. However, Senator Ahearn mentioned the resilience of Ukrainians he observed in Kyiv. It is very high and strong and we are not going to capitulate. We will fight but we need the support of our partners to rebuild and renew.

Noel McCarthy (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the ambassador for her response. What are Ukraine's most urgent needs at this stage in terms of humanitarian aid, reconstruction help and military assistance and how can Ireland best target its support to that effect?

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

Our needs are complex. In regard to military support, we know that Ireland is a neutral country so we do not ask for any military support, but we would ask for non-lethal support. We definitely need support in the energy sector.

Of course, we need support in de-mining. We need many things just to survive, during this winter as well. Our embassy constantly notifies the Department of foreign affairs of our special needs. Sometimes, including, for instance, after the heavy bombardment and devastation, we need equipment for fire brigades because Russia is now targeting gas reservoirs and oil reservoir storages. To stop these fires, we need that equipment. All our needs are conveyed through the Department of foreign affairs to the Government.

Noel McCarthy (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chair and thank the ambassador for her response.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the ambassador for her strong statement. As she knows, we are in absolute solidarity with her and her people.

About three weeks ago, I travelled to Ukraine. Some of my colleagues did earlier in the summer. I was really glad that I travelled. For me, it was important to show solidarity but also to bear witness to and experience what it is like on the ground for those who are under siege. On the night that I was there, there was very heavy bombing in Kyiv and four people sadly lost their lives. We spent most of the night in a bomb shelter but travelled to that area. I have to say that while it was incredibly difficult, obviously, for those who died, who included a 12-year-old girl and two people in a cardiac unit in a hospital, I was struck by how the city of Kyiv adapted and how they immediately had counsellors there to support families and immediately had the machinery there to take down the remnants of the houses and apartments so that they would not be a danger to people. While it was good to see it, it was also saddening because the experience over the last number of years has been channelled into the way in which all of that has to be dealt with. I was also struck by the resilience of all the people that we met, both those in politics and those outside of politics. That strength of resolution and character will always remain with me.

There are a few questions that I might ask. From the ambassador's perspective, what does a just and lasting peace for Ukraine look like?

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

For us, lasting peace is not only a ceasefire; it is guarantees of our security. That is lasting peace. A ceasefire means a very short period of time - maybe a day, a week, month, maybe less, maybe more - but all our people will continue living in the country with the understanding that tomorrow Russia will launch more missiles.

Non-lasting peace, a ceasefire, will prevent Ukrainians from returning to Ukraine because they want to be sure. All mothers do. Some of the committee members are parents and they want their children to be safe and to live in a peaceful country. Ukrainians want their children to be safe and to have peace and prosperity.

Non-lasting peace without security guarantees for Ukraine also means that more Ukrainians will decide to stay abroad. Just having a ceasefire will be an obstacle for the economic development of our country because fewer companies and businesses will be interested in investment in Ukraine. It will be an obstacle to everything. We cannot live from one war to another. We want to live in peace.

When I am talking about lasting peace, it is lasting peace in the region, in Europe and not only in Ukraine. It is lasting peace for each and every country. Neither Poland nor Denmark would face such challenges as drones or jets in their airspace. All of us need lasting peace and this peace is possible through strength.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the ambassador. When I visited, people spoke about the lost generation of young people. I know that is a huge concern. What message would she give to politicians and to countries that are not condemning Russia and not fully supporting Ukraine?

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

I would ask them to put themselves in our shoes, even for a moment. We invite all politicians who do not support Ukraine or who have doubts that Ukraine should defend itself and Europe to visit Ukraine, to have this experience, to talk to ordinary Ukrainians and maybe to read more about the history of Russia, the history of Ukraine and the history of Russia's war against not only Ukraine but other countries, about their invasions, about Russia's war against Chechnya in Russia and about Russia's colonialism and imperialistic ambitions.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the ambassador and the Senator. I call on Deputy Ó Laoghaire.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the ambassador. In the Chamber we previously had the opportunity to address her but this is the first time in the committee that we have done so. I spoke in the Chamber about the resilience of the Ukrainian people and the ambassador has articulated very well here for the Irish public the resilience and courage of the Ukrainian people. Their ingenuity and resourcefulness have been entirely inspirational as well. I take this opportunity to again condemn Vladimir Putin's war of aggression. The attacks on civilians in places such as Bucha and Kherson have been horrendous. It is truly appalling.

It is appropriate that previous contributions have focused on the issue of the abducted children. I am not sure it gets the attention that it ought to in this country. It is a crime that is difficult to comprehend. It does not bear thinking about. I want to get a sense from the ambassador of the scaleof the abduction of children. Different numbers have been put out by different experts and so on.

Some have said it might be 20,000. I want to get a sense of the scale of abducted children. Do some of these go back to 2019 or 2020 or is it all since the most recent phase of the war that these abductions have taken place?

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

To be honest, I do not remember the numbers of adopted children. There were abducted children who were forcibly deported to Russia and then adopted. Lvova-Belova stated publicly that she adopted Ukrainian children. That is why the International Criminal Court issued a warrant for her arrest. In general, we do not have that data and confirmation. It was stated publicly by a member of the State Duma, the Russian parliament, that he adopted children. We know that many Ukrainian children were adopted which we have heard through different sources. I will check with the government in Ukraine because I am not ready to give actual numbers. I will send the number to the Deputy personally or to the committee if I get it.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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It seems very clear to me and I think most people in these Houses that at this moment in time, Russia has no intention of negotiating. It is pretending and trying to deceive people but ultimately, it has no interest in negotiation. It seems clear additional pressure is required. Ireland should very much be part of any of the packages of sanctions that are being looked at. In terms of actions Ireland can take alone, humanitarian aid is obviously important. Non-lethal aid is also important. The ambassador identified €1.87 billion in Russian sovereign assets frozen here in Ireland. Does she believe there is scope for Ireland to take further actions itself in terms of financial sanctions?

The ambassador and the Tánaiste had spoken about addressing some of the issues with dual use equipment that might end up in Russia for the purposes of armaments. He was keen to try to address them - Does the ambassador have an update on that issue? Does she think more can be done with financial sanctions against the Russian Federation?

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

I thank the Deputy for his question. With regard to frozen assets, these mechanisms for using frozen Russian assets is under discussion right now within the EU. We urge the EU and its member states to adopt these mechanisms more quickly in order to use these assets. I am not sure that Ireland can use these assets by making its own decisions to do so. I do not know Ireland's legislation, to be honest. This mechanism is under discussion within the EU.

On the question about dual-use equipment, and it is not only-dual use, no Irish company, or at least we do not know of any Irish companies, that violate the sanctions regime. We discovered a few components in drones which attacked Ukraine but these components have never been sold to Russia. They are re-exported. As I mentioned in my statement, some companies export these components to other countries. These other countries then re-export to Russia. It actually circumvents the sanctions. That is the point. We are talking about these third countries as non-EU countries. It is very easy to check how levels of exports with some countries, if we are talking about Ireland, have increased. For some countries, the level has increased by more than 100% or even more. We have to be very careful and analyse this export data.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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I thank the ambassador for addressing our committee today. I apologise for missing the beginning as I was in the Dáil speaking. I will pick up on the point Deputy Ó Laoghaire was asking about. Has Ukraine compiled a list of these third countries that are facilitating these loopholes in dual-use technologies, or at least the worst offenders of this? Have they presented such a list to either the EU or other allies with a recommended course of action, be it sanctions or otherwise?

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

The Ukrainian financial minister, ministry and our authorities are working on this list. I can give a few examples we found through statistical sources that are available to the public. Let us look at the export increases to Kyrgyzstan, for example. Exports increased by 2,530% to Kyrgyzstan, 1,182% to Armenia, 938% to Georgia and 612% to Azerbaijan. I cannot be certain of the reason these exports have increased, in particular the electronic components, but it is an example. These numbers seem to tell a lot.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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In terms of Ukraine's desire to join the European Union - one which we fully support - how can we in Ireland promote that in advance of cluster 1? Is there anything more we can do or can we do something better to support Ukraine on this?

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

We know which country vetoes the opening of cluster 1. It is Hungary.

Of course, Ireland’s unity and active role in encouraging this country to de-block the opening of these first clusters would help.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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We need to focus our actions on pressuring Hungary further.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

Yes.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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What I found most arresting about the ambassador’s opening statement was the level of detail as to just how active and brutal the war remains to this day. I refer to the level of Russia’s attacks, including missile and drone attacks and the destruction of infrastructure, hospitals and everything else. It is just relentless and it is continuing.

While it seems we are a long way from a just peace, if we somehow got to that space, what would the ambassador like to see in terms of the composition of a peacekeeping force, assuming it is a peace that Ukraine would agree to in the first place? Would she like to see it being United Nations-led or EU-led? Are there certain countries she would like to see, or that would be trusted to be, part of such a force? Does the ambassador have any thoughts on that? While I know we are a long way away from that, I am interested because peacekeeping, in our dialogue in both this committee and the defence committee, which overlap, is quite a live issue. I am interested to hear the ambassador’s thoughts in that regard.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

First, when we are talking about an EU-level peacekeeping operation, it is impossible while Russia has a seat on the UN Security Council. There is no doubt that Russia will always veto any resolution on the deployment of a peacekeeping operation in Ukraine. Of course, we can rely on our partners, both our EU and non-EU partners, but not under the umbrella of the UN Security Council. That is pretty obvious.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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That is interesting, although not unexpected. It is interesting in the context of our internal debates and dialogue and what is going on there. I thank Ms Gerasko.

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I thank the ambassador for the detailed presentation she gave. I particularly appreciate that she outlined the impact of the war on civilians and framed it as a colonial war. Of course, colonialism, in all of its forms, is one of the greatest threats to the fundamental principles we have in the UN Charter, including the right to self-determination and other related international principles.

I will pick up on a couple of points that have been discussed. In trying to come to where Ireland plays a role, Ireland has been, of course, strong in its solidarity with Ukraine. It is strong and clear regarding international law and the fact that Russia’s illegal invasion is a blatant breach of it. It is about trying to find Ireland’s role and what is appropriate for Ireland in this area. It would be good to know whether there is an understanding of Ireland’s neutral status. Being a neutral country comes with a slightly different set of measures of support that we can bring. There are things Ireland can contribute. Neutral, of course, does not mean a country is not caring, involved, interested or engaged. Rather, it simply means that a country comes from a perspective where it will not engage militarily in a context outside of UN or international law and that it will apply international law to everyone. Ireland does not support Ukraine simply because it is a European country – although I believe Ukraine is a European country and I hope it will be a part of the EU soon – but we support it because it is a country that has suffered violations of international law. It is about that principle. It is that piece which drives our solidarity.

There are a couple of things the ambassador talked about which I wish to pick up on. With regard to the abduction of children, which we all agree is horrendous, the ambassador rightly identified that it has been recognised as a crime. Indeed, arrest warrants have been issued for Putin by the International Criminal Court in this regard. How important is it that the International Criminal Court is allowed to do its work? The International Criminal Court is under pressure. Many people feel the European Union should be using the blocking mechanism and other mechanisms to try to support the International Criminal Court to be able to continue its work and prosecutions in this kind of case. Of course, it is likely that there will be many more war crimes that will need to be prosecuted.

I highlight the Global Rights Compliance organisation as an example of the kind of thing Ireland can support. I know the EU currently supports it. That is an organisation, which has Irish staff working for it, that specialises in humanitarian criminal human rights law. It has mobile justice teams who provide legal advice, as I understand it, to the office of the prosecutor general in Ukraine and train persons to document breaches of international law, including sexual violence. Will the ambassador talk about that justice work, support for the work of documenting and effectively preparing for the prosecution of crimes and also the importance of the International Criminal Court being able to do its work?

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

I thank the Senator for her questions. First, we do not discuss Ireland’s neutrality. We, of course, know it relates to Ireland’s internal affairs. Sometimes, there is a misunderstanding, or even confusion, between the concepts of neutrality and security. We are talking about security and the security of Europe. Every country, whether it is neutral or not, has to defend itself and think about security.

To take Ukraine as an example, before the first invasion by Russia in 2014, Ukraine was a neutral country and neutrality was enshrined in the constitution. Moreover, I mentioned the 1994 Budapest memorandum, which is very well known. Ukraine signed this memorandum for security guarantees and, in turn, we gave up the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world. Imagine how naive Ukraine was. We were such a peaceful nation that we gave up nuclear weapons and received nothing in return, because the security guarantees we thought we got ended up being meaningless. Russia, one of the state guarantors of the memorandum, invaded Ukraine. That is a general thought.

With regard to the International Criminal Court, while I know the ICC is under pressure, it is important that it still investigates each case concerning the abduction or forceful adoption of Ukrainian children. The President of Ukraine, in his address to members of the coalition on bringing Ukrainian children back to Ukraine, stated that each and every case of illegal and forcible adoption should be investigated and punished.

It prevents other people from engaging in illegal adoptions. It does not matter if it is a Russian family. Ordinary people would know these kids are from Ukraine and have been forcibly deported, so there is no way to adopt them because you would be punished.

On the Senator's second question, there are some programmes. As she can imagine, our prosecutors' offices are working very hard because of all the crimes committed by Russia and Russian soldiers, and not only in Ukraine. They are documenting such cases. There are many different programmes to help appropriate Ukrainian authorities to document such crimes. Some delegations of Ukrainian prosecutors and judges visited Ireland as part of an EU programme and learned how to do it properly.

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
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It is very nice to meet Ms Gerasko. I apologise for missing her opening statement. I read the statement closely and noted many issues of concern in it. One in particular that caught my attention was what seem to be persistent Russian attacks on or near nuclear reactors in Ukraine. Obviously, Chornobyl is of concern and-----

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

Zaporizhzhia.

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Gerasko. I was going to struggle with that name. How big a potential issue is this? Using explosive ordnance close to nuclear reactors could damage them or eliminate their power to such an extent that cooling would be prevented and there would be a meltdown. I am not saying that is likely, but Russia cannot be doing this by accident. What is driving the Russians to target these plants or areas in their immediate vicinity? Is it that they are trying to cut off the electricity supply or could it be something more sinister, namely that they are trying to trigger something potentially more serious? Has the International Atomic Energy Agency made any comment on this? Has it been monitoring the situation? What is the level of its concern?

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

I thank the Deputy so much for his questions. Of course, it has happened. It is not happening by accident. What the Russians are doing is on purpose. At the beginning of the full-scale invasion, Russian troops entered the Chornobyl nuclear zone and dug up the soil in the forest, etc., which is very dangerous. Believe me, they knew what they were doing. Then, they occupied, and still control, the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, which is one of the largest in Europe. They militarised the power plant. Even now, they take employees at the plant hostage. When I say it has been militarised, I mean they keep weapons not only inside the plant but on the roof. They are shelling this station, and recently Chornobyl, on purpose. They use the same playbook. They try to intimidate Ukrainians and Europe. Radiation does not recognise any borders; it will spread immediately everywhere if there is a catastrophe. They are doing it on purpose. It is the same as their use of drones over the territory of some EU countries. It is a test by Putin to see how far he can move and whether he can go further. It is a test of unity and of the possible response from Europe.

On the IAEA, after the last attack on, I think, 6 October there was an announcement immediately about the shelling and about the danger. The agency cannot do something because it is not there. It just seeks such cases. Of course it is a huge concern for all of us, but as we said, we have to push Putin to demilitarise Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant because it is very dangerous.

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate what Ms Gerasko is saying about the Russians trying to intimidate Ukraine and the rest of Europe. Does she feel the international community is taking that threat seriously enough, or is there more that could be done?

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

That is a very complicated question. The European Union and the European partners take it seriously. Maybe they did not at the beginning of the full scale invasion but our partners and European countries have realised Putin and Russia pose threats to all of us by different means like blackmailing, nuclear radiation, bombardments, testing airspace and waters, using Ukrainian immigration, weaponising winter and energy, using children and hybrid war and cyberattacks. We are witnessing all these tools Putin uses.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the ambassador. I am the final speaker in this round. She mentioned that in the first six months of this year 30,000 guided aerial bombs, over 11,000 Shahed drones, 9,000 other types of attack drone and more than 1,000 missiles, including ballistic ones, were used. Will she talk about the drone attacks and give a little more detail? We have no conception of this here. It is just to explain how they happen. Is it during the night or during the day, and what is the impact? What payloads, that is, weapons, do the drones carry?

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

It depends. By using these components, Russia has developed its drones more and more. It changes drones and their capacity all the time. We have so many innovations as well. We are developing our drones but the Russians are not sleeping either. Mostly, they are used during the night in order to attack civilian infrastructure and residential buildings because people are sleeping. Unfortunately, more than three years after the full-scale invasion, civilians are quite tired, to be honest, and they do not want to go to the bomb shelter every time and they do not react on each and every air raid. I did the same when I was in Ukraine this summer. I did not go to the bomb shelter because I was tired and wanted to sleep. When I was in my home town with my parents in the evening, at 7 p.m. maybe, two Russian drones were flying over our house. We were sitting outside in the garden. My parents live in the countryside and there are no bomb shelters, so where could we run? Where could we hide? Nowhere. I am not a military person but they use different kinds of weapons. For instance, some might just target cars or houses. There are different kinds of drones, like Shahed, which is a huge one -----

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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How big is it? Is it as big as a helicopter?

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

Something like that. It would be bigger than this table here. They can hit residential buildings or critical infrastructure.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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When they discard their weapons, do they turn back for Russia?

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

No.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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They disintegrate. They are once-off.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

Yes.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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They fly into structures.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

There are different types of drones. Some drones are flying -----

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Observing.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

----- just getting different data, etc.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Intelligence.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

Then they go back to Russia or the front lines.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Are the drones that have been sighted in Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland observation drones? They are intelligence-gathering.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

It seems to me they are interceptor drones, they are just to intercept these Russian drones so it is different. The point is we do not have enough air defence systems like Patriots, for instance. We could not protect all civilians or objects of infrastructure either. Even to use these air defence systems like Patriots would be very complicated because there are different types of drones. They are different sizes. We do not use Patriots for smaller drones, for instance. It is much better to use interceptor drones, which are smaller, to intercept them in the air and not allow them to target and hit -----

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Therefore many of the drones just have one mission, one use, and disintegrate on impact.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

Yes.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Does anybody want to go into a second round? Senator O'Loughlin.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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When we were in Ukraine we learned that Russia was making about 1,000 drones every day, which means it is going to launch about 1,000 every day.

Going back to the accession of Ukraine to the European Union, which is something Ireland is absolutely supporting, there is a concern and I am interested to hear Ms Gerasko's perspective. Obviously, Ukraine and its government are working through the criteria. It is always important that there are criteria, that they are monitored and there is clear evidence that, while totally accepting it is in a war situation, the country is hitting the milestones. On 22 July, legislation was passed. From my understanding, and having spoken to several MPs there, it was passed quite quickly and amendments were put in 15 minutes before it needed to be voted on. It was in relation to not supporting anti-corruption measures. I am sure there is an explanation but I would like to hear what it is because it is an important area in terms of going forward.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

It was in terms of anti-corruption?

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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In terms of legislation that was brought in on 22 July which seemed to be a step backwards.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

The Senator means the law. The law that was adopted by the Ukrainian Parliament did not target anti-corruption authorities or their existence. There were some problems in the functioning of the anti-corruption authorities. Another law was adopted by the Ukrainian Parliament perhaps two weeks later or maybe less and signed by the President of Ukraine. It was not a targeting of anti-corruption bodies or authorities - definitely not. This law had to be amended, perhaps not in this way, as it happened, in reality. We can send the Senator information on our reforms on anti-corruption and combating corruption. Our embassy gets information on a weekly basis in this regard.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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Maybe we could get further clarification. I thank the ambassador.

Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
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I am sorry I missed the questions and answers as I was in the Chamber for something else so apologies if some of my questions have already been answered.

Ireland will hold the Presidency of the European Council in coming months. In her opening statement Ms Gerasko spoke a lot about the challenges with energy and energy infrastructure. Ireland has made a contribution but obviously we are a small country. It would be interesting to hear in terms of our Presidency what priorities Ms Gerasko thinks would be relevant around the energy infrastructure piece in terms of supporting Ukraine.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

Of course, we hope that our European integration will be one of the priorities during Ireland's Presidency. Ireland is a small country but it is a very strong country which is advocating our EU path.

We are working together with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and our Ukrainian team on clarification of those spheres where Ireland would be helpful to Ukraine during its Presidency.

Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
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We obviously have our own history in Ireland in terms of conflict and peace deals, albeit nothing on the scale of what is happening in Ukraine. A huge role was played by civil society groups in Northern Ireland in engaging in peace discussions. The Ukrainian Government and civil society in Ukraine have often been excluded from discussions about a peace agreement and what long-term peace could look like for the country. I am interested in hearing what efforts are being made to strengthen civil society organisations so that the voices of different groups are included. I know it is difficult to have those discussions at a time of war rather than peace, but we all hope that one day - in the near future - we can start thinking about what peace means. What role could civil society play in peace and to deal with the communities that have experienced a lot of trauma, challenges and deaths? What gaps are there in supporting civil society that Ireland might be able to step into, recognising our neutrality? There are other ways that we can support Ukraine and supporting civil society to integrate and engage in peace could be part of that. It would be interesting to hear what the position is currently in the country or what stage it is at.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

It is really difficult to talk about peace or what happens after it when it is not in place right now. We are thinking about our civil society. We will face many challenges, the first of which is mental health. We are working now to establish centres to help Ukrainians with mental health issues. Almost all people have severe body trauma. We can imagine that when there is peace so many soldiers and defenders will return from the front line and the battlefield with post-traumatic syndrome. All of them will have it and we must deal with it.

We are talking about the same thing but Senator Stephenson calls it civil society while I say "society" or "all civilians". Without any exceptions, all of us have got this trauma because there are bombardments and air raids every day. Of course there is trauma. We believe in a peace solution. We need peace and to continue our normal life. Ireland will be one of the countries we are very interested in learning from with respect to the experience of how to bring about reconciliation. That will be an issue for us.

Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
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Absolutely. I imagine that even the term "reconciliation" is really difficult to envisage when the conflict is active.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

Yes, it is very difficult.

Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
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Ms Gerasko spoke briefly about the Ukrainian children who were abducted and kidnapped. There is a whole piece there in terms of supporting their reintegration into their communities. I do not know if some of them have returned. What role could Ireland play in that?

Senator Ahearn asked how many Ukrainians are in Ireland. I am trying to think of practical things Ireland can do in terms of mental health and psychosocial support opportunities and programmes for young people to come to Ireland for respite. It might be something practical that could be explored for an element of that trauma to be alleviated, even if only in the short term.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

I am sure we will all work together to get treatment and psychological health for all Ukrainians abroad and in Ukraine.

Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
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I thank the ambassador.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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On the trade piece the ambassador mentioned, could she let us know if there is anything this committee can do? If there is a trade delegation or anything like that in 2026, she could bring it before this committee. I am sure it is something committee members would consider positively. We are at her service if there is any engagement on trade that she wants to embark on.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

Thank you, Chair. Our First Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Sergiy Kyslytsya, will pay a visit to Ireland on 5 and 6 November. He is in charge of economic affairs. If the committee is interested in meeting with him on 6 November, he would be happy to meet with members and to give more information on investment, trade and everything else not related to trade. We will formally invite all members to a conference organised by our embassy in partnership with the representation of the European Commission and European Parliament here on democracy and security in the shadow of Russia's aggression against the world. We will talk about security, peace, stability and everything else. It will take place on 5 November in Europe House. All members are more than welcome to attend.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Some Irish parliamentarians were part of the recent electoral observation mission in Moldova. We saw at first hand the interference that takes place, but on this occasion it worked out positively.

Some years ago, Russia invaded Ukraine and thought it would overrun Ukraine in a matter of weeks. Three years later, the ambassador is here. As we say in Ireland, we have her back. This is the first time she has come before this new committee in this Dáil. We are very grateful for her comprehensive update. We look forward to seeing her on a regular basis. It is in all our interests to ensure we get briefed and updated. If there are any suggestions she can make about the work we do in the committee, we will be happy to hear them. I thank the ambassador for her attendance.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

Thank you so much, Chair, for inviting me and for this opportunity to share the latest developments in Ukraine. Our foreign affairs committee in the Parliament of Ukraine is always prepared to have online meetings with this committee. In September, we sent a letter from the chair of our committee so there will be more engagement between this committee and our colleagues. They are politicians and they will be more free and open to any discussions.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Gerasko can rest assured that more and more of her ambassadorial colleagues who represent countries in central and eastern Europe - it is not just the Scandinavian countries - who come here to meet informally with me or with some of the Chairs of the other committees or who come before this committee raise the issue of the heightened tension and levels of anxiety they feel because the reach of Russia is being extended further. While she may not be engaging directly with us, she can rest assured that there are others who are giving us the same messages.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

Thank you.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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The committee will now go into private session. I thank Her Excellency and her team for attending.