Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Apologies have been received from Senator Davitt and Deputy Butterly.

I am delighted to say that the committee will today engage with representatives of the European Committee of the Regions. Tá mé thar a bheith buíoch as sin agus tá mé an-sásta go bhfuil siad ann. Mar iar-bhall den choiste, tá mé thar a bheith sásta go bhfuilimid in ann labhairt leis na baill inniu. I am happy to welcome the representatives. As a former member of the Committee of the Regions, it is a real pleasure to see so many here. I acknowledge the members of the Irish delegation and representatives of the various regional assemblies here. From the Irish delegation of the Committee of the Regions, I acknowledge the presence of councillors Mick Cahill, Clare Colleran Molloy, Emma Blain, Jimmy McClearn, Brídín Murphy, Dermot Lacey, Declan McDonnell, Dan Boyle, Mary Hoade, Neil Feighery, Kieran McCarthy and Tony Murphy, as well as Ms Cristina Riveiro McClelland, Mr. Tadhg Browne, Ms Laura Murphy, Ms Clare Bannon, Mr. David Kelly and Mr. Conall McGettigan.

I particularly acknowledge the chairs of the regional assemblies, Councillor David Healy from the Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly, of which I am also a former member, Councillor Micheál Frain of the Northern and Western Regional Assembly and Councillor Andrew McGuinness from the Southern Regional Assembly. It is a credit to the strength of the organisation and the commitment people have to representation at a regional level that so many of them have taken the time to be with us here today. I am grateful to them.

I particularly thank Ms Kata Tütt, the president of the European Committee of the Regions, and Councillor Gillian Coughlan, head of the Irish delegation to the European Committee of the Regions, who are joining us today. They are both very welcome. I am delighted to see them here. I also welcome the various advisers, party staff, advisory staff and supporting staff who are with all our guests. It is great to see them.

As I say, I am very familiar with the Committee of the Regions and had many enjoyable sessions in various different places while debating important issues and, perhaps most importantly, putting the voices of the regions and local areas in European countries to the fore and forming opinions that then went further up the chain. It is a hugely important body. I am delighted to see everyone here. I acknowledge that a number of people will undoubtedly be watching online as this meeting is being broadcast live.

Before we begin, I am obliged to read a note on privilege and address some housekeeping matters. I remind witnesses of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. I have almost no concern whatsoever that will arise today.

Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. No members are joining us online so I do not need to give the constitutional warning in that regard.

I will invite President Tütt to make a five-minute statement. I remind members that there will be an opening statement of five minutes, after which members will have an opportunity to raise issues or ask questions. We will conclude today's session at 11 a.m. so I ask members to bear that deadline in mind. I call President Tütt to make her opening statement.

Ms Kata Tütt:

I am grateful for the floor, dear Cathaoirleach, Deputies, councillors and colleagues from the European Committee of the Regions. I am glad that they are all familiar with the European Committee of the Regions. I will still say a few words to reflect on where and who we are now. It is called a committee, but it is a parliament of European local leaders from different realities. We have councillors and mayors from small towns, middle-sized cities, capital cities and metropolitan areas. We have presidents of regions. We have representatives from islands and mountainous areas. We have representatives from rural and industrial areas. We have all the local experience from all across Europe.

What we do is to digest European legislation. Most European legislation is implemented by the local municipalities. What we bring to European decision-making is our realities. We try to make European legislation better. We try to connect European decision-making, all the abstract policies, to the everyday realities of our citizens.

Why am I here today? I am connecting with our members of the European Committee of the Regions. There is an amazing Irish delegation in the European Committee of the Regions. They are very active members who bring to the table all the things that are important to their communities. We across Europe have one thing in common. It is the most important issue of the new European budget proposal. It will define how we will work after 2028. Ireland had its budget day yesterday. We know that a budget is about more than just numbers. It is about principles, how we work and when we give a number to priorities. This is when reality comes.

I would like to call attention to what is new in the European budget. I am gathering allies. The new European proposal puts all core European policies into one bag, including cohesion and agricultural policies, which are the core policies of the European Union, and gives them to the member states, thereby nationalising them. This proposal disconnects Brussels from the local realities in the cities and regions. It also defunds. Why is that important? The European budget seems big but in reality is very small. It is approximately 1% of European GDP. I always say that the two core policies, the seven-year agricultural policy and the seven-year cohesion policy, which binds and glues the cities and regions together to make the Common Market work, is less than the GDP of Bavaria in Germany. It seems a big budget but in reality, it is a small budget. The main function of the budget is to keep the Union functioning, and to connect its people, businesses and territories. Under the new budget, this cohesion policy is disappearing or dissolving in a bag, and competing with agricultural policy. It is disconnected from Brussels and responsibility is being given to the national governments. There is a wave of centralisation. Cohesion and agricultural policies are competing with each other in the national governments' budgets and competitiveness on the other side is disconnected from cohesion, from the cities and regions, and centralised to the European Commission.

Why are we here? We think that cohesion and competitiveness must go together. We talked about cohesion policy a lot yesterday.

Ireland knows exactly what cohesion policy means and how important it is to keep the European Union functioning. If we talk about enlargement, it is not imaginable without a stand-alone regionally and locally managed cohesion policy. This is why I am here.

I am waiting for the discussion and I thank the committee for the opportunity.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Tütt. We are looking forward to that discussion, but I invite Councillor Coughlan to make her opening statement now.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

Tá sé go hálainn a bheith anseo i dTeach Laighean inniu i measc mo chairde, mo chomhchomhairleoirí, iar-chathaoirligh coiste na réigiún, agus baill an chomhchoiste ar fad. Gabhaim buíochas libh ach go háirithe as ucht an fháilte.

I say "Szeretettel, üdvözöljük Dublinban", to the president of the European Committee of the Regions who spent yesterday with us in our company as members of the committee. As has been said, we have discussed cohesion policy with the lord mayor and with the Minister and emphasised the importance of this policy.

President Tütt described the new EU budget proposal as a monster set on swallowing cohesion policy whole - nationalising it, centralising it and, ultimately, defunding it - yet cohesion policy has long been the European Union's investment in balanced growth, the glue holding Europe's regions together. We cannot have a competitive and fair Europe without cohesion policy.

Cohesion policy has always been available to all of the regions - rural, urban, remote, central and outermost. These funds are one of the most visible manifestations of the EU in action, and they actively combat Euroscepticism, something we all as public representatives in Ireland see in our constituencies and feel the rise of.

We are here as local representatives and the cohesion policy is about local action. As local representatives, we are asking the committee to support our cause against the nationalisation and centralisation of cohesion policy. The proposed European fund for economic, social and territorial cohesion, agriculture and rural, fisheries and maritime, prosperity and security - even all of those hefty policy items in one fund or pot makes no sense - will pit farmers, businesses, NGOs and various levels of government against each another for access. This is not Europe working for the regions; this is Europe deepening regional disparities. Surely, that is not the esprit de corps of the European Union.

Next July, Ireland will take the reins of the EU for the eighth time. The Taoiseach has said that Ireland’s Presidency must be "defined by action." That action must include protecting cohesion policy and supporting our regions.

As Euroscepticism grows, Europe's multi-annual financial framework, MFF, must provide balanced regional development. Since 2018, Ireland has been a net contributor. This marked a new European journey for us in and one where we must actively make the case at home for why we must stay in the European Union while we still pay in more than receive.

I am proud to say, as head of the Irish delegation, that my colleagues and I are meeting this challenge head on. It is a genuine pleasure to lead our group in Brussels. These are dedicated public representatives who are working tirelessly on behalf of our communities, at home and abroad. We see the work being done in Europe, we understand it but we need the committee's support to help fully deliver it here at home.

Local authorities deliver essential services, but with greater empowerment and access to EU funding, they could do far more. Ireland is one of the most centralised states in Europe. We need stronger decision-making powers at local level so communities can respond directly to geopolitical and economic challenges as they arise.

EU funding is complex and the local authorities do not have the capacity to get to grips with it. That is why the Irish local government sector needs more expertise in Brussels and at home. The Irish regions European office plays a vital role. We have some of the staff here today. We can all attest, as delegation members, to the excellent work that has been done for the Irish delegation, but demand is growing. At present, only a few local authorities have dedicated European Union officers. By enacting the strategy for the Irish regions European office in Brussels and a local government support service in Ireland and establishing the proposed network of European officers across Ireland, we can do even more for communities. The ask today is that we would bring Europe into our communities even more deeply. We will need cohesion policy to do that. There is no point in appointing European officers if there are no cohesion funds. The MFF must service cohesion policy because cohesion policy serves communities, regions and local authorities.

With Ireland's Presidency approaching, now is the time to expand that work and show that the Irish Government at every level is fully engaged in Europe. The appetite is there. Local and regional government wants to engage more, to bring home opportunities and to ensure citizens see the benefit of Europe on their doorsteps. At a time of cost-of-living pressures, inflation and fiscal challenges, maximising EU support is not optional; it is essential. Let us commit to protecting cohesion policy, empowering the local authorities and deepening Ireland’s engagement with the European Union. Together, we can keep Europe visible, tangible and beneficial in the lives of our citizens. Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Go raibh maith agat, a chomhairleoir. I remind members, I am happy to say, that representatives of the regional assemblies will be in with us next week and many of the issues the councillor raised will be explored in even greater detail on that occasion.

I will take members questions now. They will be aware that they have five minutes each. If there is anything left out at the end, we will certainly come back and make sure nothing is left. I call Senator Lynch, who indicated first.

Eileen Lynch (Fine Gael)
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I thank the president and Councillor Coughlan for their presentations. It was good to see them both yesterday. Councillor Coughlan is a former colleague. I also spent a brief period on the European Committee of the Regions earlier this year and I feel I have a good understanding of the valuable work it does.

Cohesion policy is obviously the big talking point. From their point of view, what should we be doing at a national level to help support the protection of cohesion? What strategies are working effectively in working with other delegations in a full European Committee of the Regions approach in the defence of that?

We, of course, talk a lot about cohesion but there are a lot of other EU funding mechanisms. What can we do to ensure that Ireland draws down its fair share of funding from those mechanisms? How can we make that more accessible to local authorities, in particular, smaller local authorities, because cohesion is very much were it is at but there are a lot of other competitive funding streams, and to ensure that we are getting our fair share of access to those?

Ms Kata Tütt:

Can I answer?

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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There is a five-minute slot and the speaker continues whatever way they want to.

Ms Kata Tütt:

I did not know. I thank the Senator for the question.

We are gathering allies everywhere - all across Europe, regional parliaments and national parliaments. The big decision on the budget is made this year, in reality, because this thinking framework is either accepted or rejected this year by December during the Danish Presidency. If we want cohesion policy to stay a local policy and if we want cohesion policy to flow to all European local realities helping the transition of all the regions, the national level has to have a debate on it. The national parliament and the national government needs to have a decision, which they represent in the European Council by saying that the Common Agricultural Policy and cohesion policy are the core policies of the European Union. There are a lot of new challenges and a lot of priorities, but it is not a future-proof idea to take out the money from the core policies that keep the EU strong together and divert it to the new priorities because we will maybe strengthen the borders but from the inside we will weaken.

I do not know how Ireland can use this concept. We really want the cohesion policy to connect and flow to all of the European regions. This is the mainstream tool of the European Union that helps the transition in everything - the climate transition, the digital transition and the demographic transition. It helps all the citizens in the regions in their transition. It is about not just a clean transition but a just transition.

Eileen Lynch (Fine Gael)
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Do the witnesses have a comment on my second question? I do not think anyone commented on it yet.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

It is good to see Senator Lynch. I thank her for her question. As I mentioned in my presentation, we really feel that local authorities need the capacity built in for the expertise in order to draw down the funding, not only cohesion funding but many other funds, as the Senator said. She is a former county councillor herself so she knows the frustrations that exist as regards funding. As county councillors, we feel there is more scope to access European Union funding through the regional assemblies. That network needs to be strengthened. The employment of European funding officers would be a game-changer. Smaller local authorities could perhaps work in clusters. I do not think every local authority necessarily needs to have one, but the larger local authorities, including the larger local authorities geographically, need one themselves and then we could have clusters of others. They would work in conjunction with the excellent staff at regional level. The expertise is there. It is just a case of it needing to trickle down to the local.

That would be useful practically but also it would show citizens Europe in action. Many people on the ground are beginning to ask what Europe is doing for us. Europe is doing a lot for us but we need to show it. That is really at the core of this model. We must ensure we have cohesion funding and then employ these officers here in Ireland just to ensure that the funding is scoped out for local and regional areas.

Eileen Lynch (Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Coughlan.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Senator Lynch mentioned that she is a former member of Cork County Council and the Southern Regional Assembly and the Committee of the Regions. As I look around at the members here, every one of us is a former local authority member. It shows the connectivity between national and local politics.

The next speaker is Deputy Michael Murphy, also a former member of two local authorities – South Tipperary County Council and Tipperary County Council - and the Southern Regional Assembly and a former head of the Irish delegation to the Committee of the Regions.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Ms Tütt, Madam President of the Committee of the Regions. I had the opportunity to work with her during my time on the Committee of the Regions. I am delighted that she is now president of the CoR. It is very well deserved. I saw at first hand the extent to which she was such a positive force and her work on climate, climate change, the circular economy and gender equality. I congratulate her. It is a great honour to be president of the CoR.

I also congratulate Gillian on her appointment as head of the delegation. I acknowledge the presence of the wider delegation members and alternates. I also mention the support staff in the Irish region's office. I see Teresa sitting behind Gillian, as well as Tadhg and Laura. They are so important in supporting the work of the Irish delegation, one that continues to punch above its weight.

I will always be a champion of the CoR and local and regional government. It is so important that we have an influence on the EU legislative and policy agenda, in particular given that 70% of all EU legislation is implemented at local and regional levels.

I fully support the strategy approach of providing a strengthened support to local authorities across Ireland and in particular having eight EU affairs officers across them, based on the former NUTS 2 regions. Does Ms Coughlan agree that it is fair to say that in the absence of having those EU affairs officers, we are leaving money behind us?

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

I thank Deputy Murphy for his question. Yes, I would say that. The local authorities that have EU affairs officers are demonstrably better at drawing down European money. They would say that themselves. The focus of attention on accessing funds and having the capacity within the local authority's office makes a big difference.

As members themselves know, local authorities are pressed. There are a lot of calls on their expertise and on their staff, so to have an expert they can call on to do this is warranted. Yes, we are leaving money behind. That is not good enough, especially as we are net contributors. It was never good enough, but it is certainly not good enough now. If there are opportunities for local areas, we should certainly grasp them with both hands.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I am sure that is something Madam President supports as well.

Ms Kata Tütt:

Absolutely, I do. This is what we are trying to bring. We all know what it is like when there is a constant state of emergency. We already know that because we have been leading on different levels. When there is a constant emergency, there is a strong wave of centralisation. Centralisation also comes from not having enough resources. We all see that. When you do not have enough money for all the problems you face, you look for a bigger pot of money. Part of the centralisation wave comes from this lack of resources. Where does this lead? Constant centralisation means that the local level is weakened even further and the attention is focused only on today's crisis. This is the trade-off. We give up tomorrow for putting out fires today. We lose the local muscle, local leadership, local ambition and the local innovation capacity. We all know that our cities and regions are not the same. There are a lot of similar challenges but the paths for those communities are very different. The speed they can go at and the strengths and weaknesses are different. The rule of local leaders is to find a path for their communities, but they need to be strengthened not weakened.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Tütt. I wish to ask about her opening comments on the cohesion policy and, for want of a better word, the threat to it in the context of the MFF proposals. Her visit to Ireland is very timely. We take on the Presidency in 2026. Ireland wants to maximise this opportunity in terms of its reputation and influence within the European Union. With the Presidency in mind, what single action could Ireland champion to show leadership in this regard, in particular in cohesion policy?

As I said yesterday about Ms Tütt's meeting with the Minister, since 1975, cohesion funds and structural funds have had a transformative effect on this country. We are now net contributors. Is there an opportunity for Ireland to show leadership in this regard? Is there an opportunity, for example, to mobilise with allies and like-minded countries to resist centralisation?

Ms Kata Tütt:

Yes, absolutely. Ireland is one of the most credible countries to protect the cohesion policy. Because of what it did, Ireland is the champion of this – how cohesion policy can help transformation, not in theory but in reality. It gives credibility coming from the Irish Presidency. We are here to prepare for the Irish Presidency. I know already there is ongoing thinking together with the next members of the trio, Greece and Lithuania. The more allies Ireland can bring in, the better. We want to put the spotlight on the cohesion policy – what it is and why it is important not just for the Presidency of the EU but for the future.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Tütt very much. The next speaker is a former member of South Dublin County Council, Deputy Lahart.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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And a former member of the Committee of the Regions.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Yes. I apologise.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I served on the Committee of the Regions for a few years.

The committee is probably the best kept secret in politics. I say that seriously. We have an issue there. I was a member of the committee 15 years ago and it is still the best kept secret. That might be a positive thing in one regard but I do not believe it is positive.

I will make a couple of comments that I made 15 years ago. Our problem in Ireland is we are consistently pro-European. I agree wholeheartedly with what was said about having a dedicated officer at local authority level. I articulated that 15 years ago in my local authority, South Dublin County Council, which is probably the second or third largest local authority in the country. There were specific reasons I would like to have seen that. Nobody in Ireland knows that the Committee of the Regions exists, outside of those who are represented on it. Most Members of the Dáil do not even know what the Committee of the Regions is. That is an issue that needs to be addressed. Aside from the official side, the advantages of having an official would include being aware of what funding is available and accessible and what schemes are available. That would be extremely valuable because those local authorities that are aware of it then box above their weight in drawing down such funding.

In the 2000s and 2010s, particularly the 2000s, there were several referendums. The only time Irish people became heavily engaged with the European Union was when there were referendums. That was an opportunity and a vehicle to have a continuous flow of information at local authority level. As a councillor at the time, if we had been getting regular updates and briefings on key things happening in the European Parliament and key decisions made by the Council of Ministers and the Commission in the previous month or in quarter, I would have been inclined to put something about it in a newsletter to my constituents. Maybe individual members of the Committee of the Regions have done this but, if not, I do not know why they have not sought from the chief executives at local authority level the right to make a presentation to their local authority every month or once a quarter.

We only talk about Europe. In the old days, it was about getting funding for schemes. There is a lack of connectedness on the cultural side. With Brexit, our nearest neighbour has left the EU and our nearest EU neighbour is now France. The war in Ukraine has highlighted for me that there is a remoteness sometimes about Ireland's relationship with the European Union. Traditionally, the connectedness has come over schemes, money and finance but not cultural matters. The Committee of the Regions provides a vehicle at administrative and political level to inform local authority members on a regular basis. If I, as a member of a local authority, got a briefing once a quarter or on a regular basis, I would be more inclined to talk about that when I met members of my community and to address European Union issues in newsletters that I circulate or on my social media and things like that. A huge opportunity is being missed. If, at Government level, we could do something about this, such as mandating every local authority or giving them a statutory responsibility to have a European officer who reports to that local authority every month, I would do it in the morning. Committee of the Regions members should also have the responsibility to present to their local authority on the same basis.

We are running into trouble. This comes up in issues such as the response of the European Union to Gaza. Some people feel the European Union is completely disconnected, and they are right because the European Union at the end of the day is about values. It seems we do not hold some values in common, however. This is a real threat to the European Union and to how it is viewed. The more local you can bring the message and get the message from, the more it feeds back.

I welcome the opportunity to engage with representatives of the Committee of the Regions today.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

I thank Deputy Lahart. He is singing my song. Subsidiarity is the word of the Committee of the Regions, where actions are taken as closely to the citizen as possible. That is what the European project was designed to do. You think globally and act locally and the money, the actions and also the cultural experiences of being part of a diverse union of countries bind people together. I have many times wondered how often the European Union is mentioned in our local authorities. It very rarely is. When it is mentioned, it is disparagingly.

There is a question of political legitimacy here. If decisions and opinions are being taken that are not being discussed at the local level or there is not a political legitimacy trail, or even a paper trail, then that is a problem. In my analysis, that is due to the weakness of our regional structures. We do not have regional government in Ireland. The Committee of the Regions does what it says on the tin; it thinks about Europe in terms of regions. We in Ireland need to do that. There is a great opportunity for us to reconfigure local government to an extent through the regional assemblies. That brings the legitimacy.

I have asked that a report from the regional assembly would be on the standing orders of reports to the county council. That is still not the case. There is no one person from the regional assembly on Cork County Council who is obliged to answer any questions in regard to it. There is a legitimacy gap. The regional authorities themselves need to be strengthened and given real teeth, not just on spatial strategy where they become the whipping boy for planning and planners. That is not good enough. There needs to be decentralisation to take the power out of this building and give citizens their chance at local and regional level and to empower the European Union to help us and empower us to help them. In that event, our structures will be more congruous with the structures in Europe. I think Irish people would appreciate that. We do not seem to fit in; the Lego pieces just are not sticking together. There is a body of work that could be done there legislatively to strengthen our regional assemblies and, certainly on a legitimacy basis, to create accountability from the local authorities up and from the regional assemblies back down again. That umbrella needs to be examined. We have a little bit of homework perhaps.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank Councillor Coughlan. I am amused that she thinks the power that is to be taken is from this building and not the one across the road. We will come to that in a minute. I will move on to Deputy Seán Crowe, who is also a former South Dublin County Council member.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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I was on the Committee of the Regions many years ago, a bit before Deputy Lahart. They were frustrating times because you could see the potential of the committee but there was something missing. One of the things I found to be missing - and we touched on this morning - was that there is not always a dedicated officer in councils. There are eight of them, which is a big weakness. I get that maybe in smaller councils it would probably make sense to have one. They have to have someone. Ireland is on the periphery of Europe. We are an island nation, a small country that is partitioned, with two jurisdictions. Deputy Lahart spoke about the whole challenge of Brexit. It makes sense that we should be a champion for the whole area of cohesion, particularly in relation to our involvement in Europe.

As we know from the Irish experience, we followed Europe. We went along with centralising and disbanded town councils. As was said in the opening statement, there is a very small pot of funding. The main things people say to us as politicians is that the war in Ukraine has changed things in relation to Europe, there is an emphasis on defence and the fiscal rules have been torn up. We face a big challenge trying to change that narrative. We need to invest in our regions and within our own countries in relation to that. The biggest challenge is how small and community-based organisations access the funding.

That was always the biggest challenge. You knew of different projects drawing down funding but there was the question of translating that to an Irish organisation or an organisation that might be slightly dissimilar to those organisations. That is where the EU officers come in; they investigate and simplify the pathway. When I was on the Committee of the Regions, that was the big challenge. Is it still the big challenge? Every day, organisations in our communities come to us asking us how they access this funding. Sports capital grant funding was recently announced. Most local authorities have an officer who will help organisations fill in that form. The witnesses' ask this morning makes sense. That has to be one of the recommendations.

This committee, with its limited powers, can make recommendations. What other asks would the witnesses have if they had a magic wand? The EU Presidency was mentioned. As a structure within the Houses of the Oireachtas, what can this committee do aside from asking for these dedicated officers?

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

If we stand back and look at Ireland and the lack of regional development, which the Deputy noted, how is that going to take place? It will take place within communities and communities, as the Deputy rightly said, do not know where to turn. That is still the case. People do not know where to turn. It is not good enough that somebody in a local authority randomly happens to know about a stream of funding because they went on a Committee of the Regions meeting or met a Committee of the Regions delegation and found out about it. That potpourri effect is not good enough. There has to be structured investment. The officers certainly would be an element of it.

We are county councillors and members of the Committee of the Regions and many of us have jobs as well. It would be great if this was more of a full-time position so we could dedicate more time to it. To have the executive and the political wings working hand in glove would be very helpful because being on the Committee of the Regions is a demanding role. One's presence is the most important thing. Being there, hearing about these schemes and being part of creating the schemes that will be important for our citizens is what representation is about. It is not just taking but creating and making sure the schemes are suitable for Donegal, Galway, Kerry, Wicklow or Wexford and are made in a such a way that the Lego block will fit in with the funding scheme that is in place. That is hard, painstaking and time-consuming work. There is a disconnect there. It involves time, the investment of time and the nitty-gritty of getting into the policy grooves and making them suitable for Ireland. It does not just involve money. Look how successful the Erasmus programme is. There could be something similar involving the twinning of towns across Europe, to bring it back down to what the Deputy said about town councils. If we had the chance to make those proposals and set them up, particularly with regard to future enlargement of the EU, there would be a sense of identity and people would feel able to twin with towns in Albania or Montenegro when they join the EU.

Time and investment are key. As Deputy Lahart said, it is the best kept secret. I am very much trying to raise the profile of the Committee of the Regions. It is very important that we do so because the delegation put in a significant amount of work and time and it is very demanding. I feel that we are sometimes in a bit of a cul-de-sac because we do not have the mechanisms to translate that into success on the ground.

Eamon Scanlon (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I never had the honour of being on the European Committee of the Regions. I offer a warm welcome to Ms Tütt and the other witnesses and thank them for appearing before the committee. I agree with Deputy Lahart. We are all out there to grab as much money as we can but where this money is coming from is not generally known by the general public. It is important that this message is put across. How we do this is probably the way suggested by the witnesses - maybe with eight people responsible for getting that message to the local authorities or possibly attending local authority meetings to let them know what is happening.

The presentation mentioned something that concerns me greatly as a TD who represents a very rural constituency. The CAP being put into the one bag and competing for funding against all the other organisations mentioned. I am very worried about that. It needs to be addressed. We need to do everything we can to ensure this does not happen because if that happens, the farmers of this country will lose a lot of money. How can the Dáil and the Government help the Irish delegation in its case to try to ensure that this does not happen because it would have serious repercussions? The farming community is surviving. It had a good year this year but farmers had bad years for the past four or five years. They are struggling to survive and what is keeping the family farm alive today is the money that comes from Brussels. There is no doubt about that. I am very concerned about that and I would like to find out what we can do as a Government and a Dáil to ensure this does not happen.

Ms Kata Tütt:

This is why I wanted to bring this issue here now because this is the proposal. The proposal is that agricultural funding be disconnected from Brussels and given to the national governments in a closed bag together with all the other priorities of social, territorial and economic cohesion, fisheries, maritime, border control and migration. It is a closed bag that in the end means less money. The only way to prevent this is by bringing this issue to national parliaments and pushing governments to reject this thinking framework of the European Commission disconnecting from agriculture and the rural and urban because that is the proposal. The proposal is that it only wants to focus on investing in defence, big companies, AI, supercomputers and data centres in the name of competitiveness, all of which is very true. However, it all at the expense of agriculture and social, territorial and economic cohesion. This year is the only time window to reject this thinking framework. I ask the committee to bring it to the attention of the Irish Government.

Eamon Scanlon (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely.

Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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Will Ms Tütt comment on how discussions are going with accession countries like Moldova and Albania in terms of their regional development? How does it compare to Ireland?

Ms Tütt mentioned what the mid-term review is doing in terms of focusing on more strategic issues like defence and competitiveness. It also mentions housing and water resilience. Many of those areas are not quite regional but are more national, except in the case of very large countries with very clearly defined regions. Focusing on positive elements in some of the proposals, and I take on board what she said about maintaining the regional element and protecting agriculture and the differentiation between cities and rural areas, does Ms Tütt think there is potential, even in Ireland, in terms of defence, particularly with the advent of drone technology? A local airport close to me will be looking at using pilotless craft for medical supplies. We do not have a very big navy and our Army is minuscule. We cannot defend against an invasion of the type we had historically.

With drone technology, however, we could certainly create a deterrent, as could other smaller countries. Do the witnesses see any potential in that?

Is Europe too big and too differentiated to have a common housing policy? If there is a policy of working towards improving affordable housing Europe-wide, can that be brought to the regions?

I have a specific commentary and question for Councillor Coughlan. When I was mayor of South Dublin County Council, I met a counterpart from Denmark who had a chief executive with him and who said, "The chief executive reports to me, I cover this big area and this is what our strategic priorities are." He asked me what my priorities were and I said, "I have a couple of priorities but the chief executive calls the shots." Twenty-five years ago I called South Dublin County Council on a particular issue obstructionist, dictatorial and borderline fascist. Recently, in the case of a swimming pool project in a strategic development zone, the council decided to write to An Coimisiún Pleanála to say it wanted to put something else in instead. It promised it would consult people; now it is doing it unilaterally. So we have unelected officials riding roughshod over the democratic wishes of local communities. We do not really have proper regional government. There was a report done a couple of years ago by the Congress of Local and Regional Authorities of the Council of Europe which pointed out that we had limited democratic decision-making powers, insufficient financial resources and autonomy and the most centralised system of local government. This being Councillor Coughlan's platform, what should the Government do, or what can it do, in the next five years to try to redress that imbalance? There can only be true local decision-making if we give more actual democratic say to local communities.

Ms Kata Tütt:

I will try to respond briefly. I do not know in detail about the enlargement. Maybe I will give the floor to Ms Coughlan on that because I am focusing on the inside.

The point of the mid-term review was that we were asking for more flexibility. New priorities always come, so it was a sort of testing that if there is a flexibility given to the cities and regions together with the member states to divert some but not all funds from one priority to another, what will happen. There were a lot of asks to divert funds on housing, water and defence, especially dual-use, that is, not in the defence industry. We do not really see what happened. We will see whether this worked because with this happening we always want more flexibility but we need stability. We are always balancing on this.

On housing, why is it emerging at the European level? It is not something that can be solved from Brussels. That is clear. You have no idea from Brussels what you need in Dublin. Why is it coming to the European level? Because the problem emerges everywhere, all across Europe. Why do we bring it to the European level? To see all the dimensions, to see what it is tied to and to see the barriers. Is there a regulation barrier to solving it locally? There is the state aid problem. Let us look for funding. Of course, everybody is looking for grants, but it is clear there is not enough money for anything because nobody wants to put more money into their current spending pot. We are looking for the European Investment Bank, for funding schemes and for a legislative barrier that can be removed. We are looking at connecting the cities to one another to understand who is doing what and how it works and to confront the big new multinational companies that are doing the short-term rentals. You cannot do it from Dublin but it is easier to do it from Brussels and to say there are rules and regulations you have to comply with to see what works. Barcelona is doing experiments on killing short-term rentals. Without actually doing experiments, it is important to see for others how it works out in the end and whether it has a legal standing.

Water is very similar. It is approaching everywhere. There are all the challenges of water: the old infrastructure, floods, droughts, desalination, a lot of energy, intense new technologies and industries, data centres competing with the desalination plants and with the raw material recovery plants, new electricity and congestion problems. The latter is also a challenge here, I understand. These are the things that usually come, but then electricity grids are solved nationally and across Europe. Housing, however, has to be solved in the local context.

I will stop there and give the floor to Ms Coughlan.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

I thank Ms Tütt and thank the Deputy for his comprehensive question and his real insight into local government.

Yes, we are hamstrung as councillors. We coalesce and work together as collegially as we can across our chambers to try to get budgets and get work done, but the agenda is set by the executive, really. Budgets are presented to us. We do not formulate the budget. The budget is presented and there may be a little tinkering or horse-trading here and there but nothing substantive. Again, I think it is somewhat a function of the part-time nature of the councillors as well. That has been taken advantage of. People come into the meetings, they are working very hard at community level and many of them need to work as well, so time is limited.

I think the municipal district structure is working well. I am a former Bandon town councillor and I loved it. Town councillors worked very hard for very little. I represent Bandon and Kinsale. Kinsale had an urban district council and its own autonomy and its own budget. We had the former town council type, and certainly in Bandon we are benefiting from the municipal district structure. I think the municipal district structure could be strengthened. If I had a magic wand, I would include an Oireachtas Member from every municipal district. It is back to the question of legitimacy. I would suggest maybe six or eight people in the municipal district going into the county council, with one of those going to the regional assembly and one to the Dáil or the Seanad. Cork South-West is a three-seater. It just happens that the three TDs are based west of Bandon, so - this is just an example - Kinsale feels that its TDs are very far away. The political legitimacy from the ground, the subsidiarity, right up to national policymaking needs to be more linked. Ours is a small country, a small island. We could look at government in a slightly more cohesive, to use the word of the day, manner in order that the links are formed and chained together, that we do not allow the executives to exploit the cracks, that the politicians drive the agendas for their communities, their local people, and that the benefits are seen on the ground. That is why all of us are here. We want to try to improve the lives of our citizens. That is why they put us here. That is very important.

To refer to the enlargement question, I am the European Committee of the Regions chair of the working group on Kosovo so I happen to be engaged in enlargement at the moment. I was in Timioara in Romania last week and there is a big push on for enlargement. Countries such as Montenegro and North Macedonia are very frustrated that things have not moved on. There has not been a country accession since Croatia in 2013. That is a long time. Yes, there will be a need for the cohesion policy for those countries, but let us peel back to ask ourselves why the European Union exists. If we go back to the aftermath of the Second World War and peace on our continent, that is why we are here - to progress our citizens' lives such that the rising tide will raise all boats and that le chéile, is féidir, that if we work together, hopefully we will be able to make even better outcomes than we could by ourselves.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Deputy O'Donoghue, a former member of Fingal County Council, is next.

Robert O'Donoghue (Dublin Fingal West, Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for the presentation. I really appreciate it. I totally agree with Ms Coughlan on part-time councillors as a recent incumbent here. That is a total misnomer. The issues have changed but the hours have not changed. It is a huge problem in Irish politics.

I am sad to say I agree with Deputy Lahart as well that the Committee of the Regions is one of the best kept secrets in Irish politics. The EU is too often seen as disconnected from the person in the street. The Committee of the Regions is one of the few elements, if not the only one, that I can think of that tries to bring Brussels into local areas. I am of the opinion that the answer to many of our geo-strategic problems is more Europe, not less Europe. As a net contributor, I remember back in the early 1990s a cartoon in The Irish Times of Albert Reynolds with a big sack of money from structural funds coming back from a European budget debate. We have come a long way from there. It is a proud thing to be a net contributor.

We are in a different reality now than we were when this current budget was being put together.

This is more a question for a politician but I will throw it out anyway because of what we are talking about. There is not enough money to go around to keep funding the regions and CAP while taking on new challenges like border spending. Can Ms Tütt suggest anything as far as revenue-raising goes as to where the European Union could look to bring in more funding to pay for the many challenges? I am asking but I do not have the answer to the question and it is fine too if Ms Tütt does not.

Ms Kata Tütt:

The Deputy and the Government know that cohesion policy is not a charity fund. The functioning of the Single Market increases all of our GDP together by 8% or 9%. Every single penny, euro and cent that goes into cohesion has a very high return in the European market. It is quite clear it is not distributed clearly. Every single country does its own maths and these maths work. It works for Ireland too. It is a net contributor in the budget, but if we look at the economy, the export sector and how important the Internal Market is for Ireland, we can clearly see that the economy, and, in the end, the budget absolutely benefits.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent Ireland Party)
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Yes, that is 100% right.

Ms Kata Tütt:

The whole enlargement procedure is clearly partly about defence but it is also about investing in the Common Market. There will be no return if there is no investment in the Common Market. I think this is quite clear. We need to keep the Common Market working. We need to connect territories and invest in the skills and economic transition. We decided together to invest in reducing carbon dioxide, in energy security and in the connection of the grid. This is what we are doing together. We are connecting territories and building roads, rail and energy grids and trying to keep the fabric of the European Union strong. If we do not do that and do not invest in all of the regions, then we will have regions that will hollow out completely. It is quite clear that would weaken the European Union. There are a lot of false dichotomies out there in the context of the cohesion policy only being a charity fund. The Deputy clearly knows it is not.

The competitiveness of the European Union is not decided in regard to how much we dedicate from the common budget on competitiveness because we spend so little together compared to the European economy and GDP. The competitiveness of the European Union is decided here in Ireland, and in Germany, in France and in the Netherlands. Of course, regulations are important, but the spending is happening at the national level. The big question is how much we spend together and how much is in the context of national sovereignty. This is the constant struggle happening today. If we decide, however, to spend more together, then we need to put in the money together. This is now the tension. We decided to spend together but we do not want to put in the money. It is really hard to decide how to move on from this situation.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

I agree with the president. I thank the Deputy for his question. It is like being a member of any club. We must ask ourselves what the benefits are and if membership is worth it to us. The member states, and they are still member states, have to ask themselves how their citizens are benefiting. We need to continue to keep this question alive. The benefits include the Common Market, the free travel area and the euro. The benefits are so magnificent. As the Deputy said, we are net contributors now and this is not something we should have to apologise for and nor should any other country have to apologise for it. It is about perhaps framing the rhetoric. Countries are paying into this fund but let us look at the benefits accruing to our citizens. It really does come down to this point and this message must be reiterated repeatedly.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Coughlan. Are there any other speakers? I call Senator O’Loughlin.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry. I should have said the Senator is a former member of Kildare County Council as well.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I am also a former member of the Committee of the Regions.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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That is very good. I did not know that. I thank the Senator.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I am very proud to have been so. The president is incredibly welcome and it is lovely to see her again. I thank Ms Coughlan for being here too. I know she does a super job representing all nine full members, the alternate members and, indeed, all the councillors here. I acknowledge some of my party colleagues who are here, including Councillor Hoade, Councillor Colleran Molloy, Councillor Cahill and of course Councillor McDonnell, with whom I had the opportunity to serve. I had the chance to say hello to Councillor Lacey and Councillor Blain yesterday evening. I also think it is important to acknowledge Mr. Séamus Boland from Ireland, who will become the president of the European Economic and Social Committee, the other side, on 23 October.

The work being done by the Committee of the Regions is just so important. I feel very privileged because I had an opportunity to be a member of the committee and to see that at first hand and to learn a lot. That has certainly helped to inform me as a politician here in Ireland and also in terms of being progressive and looking to Europe. I agree with many of the comments made in relation to the understanding of the relevance of the Committee of the Regions to our daily lives for people in politics and those not in politics. There is an opportunity, and the president might talk a little about this aspect, regarding how we can learn from best practice across Europe. There are other countries we can learn from and countries that learn from us in relation to things like retrofitting, sustainable transport and biodiversity. I think this learning element is very important.

Something I have thought since I was a member of the Committee of the Regions is that many of its members do a lot of work around forming opinions and getting expertise from those in the field. Where do these reports go? I have always thought there should be an opportunity to present them in our own parliaments. I think this is something we should take up within this committee. I refer to having the opportunity to listen to the members who have developed the opinions and at least be able to make recommendations in that regard. The amplification of local voices in Brussels is greatly important. I can understand that councillors feel disconnected. I support 100% the idea and recommendation that there would be eight people here who would liaise between all the local authorities. I also support the suggestion that the job of local authority members here should be a full-time one.

I have a few small questions because I know I am very caught on time. The relationship between the Committee of the Regions and the MEPs is important from a European context and from a local context because people in both contexts are dealing with the same issues and with the legislation coming through. There has been talk about town councils. I am certainly interested in the perspective of the president because she is dealing with people who are elected directly as mayors as well as those elected via the system we have. There are mixed results. We see this from our experience here. We have only one place where there is a directly elected mayor. Unfortunately, it would appear to me that the local councillors who are also directly elected seem to be bypassed by the directly elected mayor as well. It is a problem. I am interested in hearing more about what was said in this regard.

Ms Kata Tütt:

I will start with the last one.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, sure.

Ms Kata Tütt:

I come from a country where we elect everybody directly, from the smallest local councillor to the district mayor to the mayor of Budapest. It really gives a huge legitimacy. Electing a mayor directly has a huge legitimacy. The mayor of Budapest in my country is the politician who gets the largest number of votes in the country. This is because we do not elect anyone else directly.

That really gives power. By people voting they are saying, "I want you, I trust you and I will follow you because I think you know the path". This gives power to politicians, which really helps. Increasingly, politics is about trust. It is not about facts. In this world of disinformation, people decide who they trust and who they follow. People electing directly who they trust gives strength to that politician. I agree with everything that has been said about how things are organised and Ms Coughlan can reflect on that better.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

I thank Senator O'Loughlin for her questions. Yes, as a member of the Committee of the Regions, European best practice is something that we do get to see as we travel to different cities and meet other councillors. The whole idea is that we learn from one another and see best practice. The frustrating thing is sometimes you cannot implement it when you come home. I would be loath to say at a council meeting, "When I was in Germany I saw this happening", because it is not going to be translated. That situation needs to be addressed, as we have discussed already.

On the relationship with MEPs, there is no formal network, Again, that is something as Team Ireland we need to address.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

Yesterday we visited Europe House and that building could become a hub. The Chair and members of this committee could meet, even informally, to discuss European policy and exchange ideas or hold a summit. Yesterday, representatives of Comhairle na nÓg were in Europe House. It is great to engage young people. They are so interested and keen to learn. They know the best practice from Europe from travelling on their holidays across the countries. The European Union has implemented youth initiatives and we are implementing them here in Ireland. The Senator suggested that it would be a good idea to strengthen the links between the Committee of the Regions and MEPs. As Irish delegations and Irish representatives, that would be no harm.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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On my own behalf, I will ask a few questions. Subsidiarity is an issue that has arisen quite a lot. I remember when I was a member of the Committee of the Regions. The fact that we have five or six former members of the Committee of the Regions on this committee is a testament to the fact that that interest continues. The disparity between me, as a local councillor in Ireland, and colleagues who meet from around Europe in terms of their powers and resources is enormous. Ireland practices subsidiarity all the time at a European level. We love, as a country, to talk about subsidiarity because it brings power to this building or, more importantly, to the one across the road. Yet, within the country there is a terrible hypocrisy because we exercise very little subsidiarity in this country. I am conscious of colleagues here. I spent 11 years as a member of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council and I complained about this when I was there. I have complained about it a lot since I have been here. There is a massive democratic deficit in terms of our local government. Notwithstanding Article 28A of the Irish Constitution, which gives that position and power to local government, Ms Coughlan said that "Ireland is one of the most centralised states in Europe". That is absolutely correct. Councillors, in terms of resources, are the hardest working politicians in this country but they are relegated to being local ambassadors to the chief executive of whatever local authority of which they are a member. I always say to people in my area that the chief executive or director of services is never going to knock on their door and ask what they think about something yet councillors do that all day every day. Given that, and given that we do not exercise that kind of subsidiarity in this country, is there a role for the Committee of the Regions to impress upon not just the Irish Government but Governments around Europe the importance of empowering local government to actually make subsidiarised decisions at a local level?

Ms Kata Tütt:

I do not think it is my role to tell you how to organise the way you do things. I do not think that any other country should tell you because it is deeply cultural. It is about the way of thinking, history and many other things. What works here does not work in another country and vice versa. I always say, however, that one should keep the following in mind. We see clearly everywhere that democracy is challenged. It is clear that there are so many threats coming, especially from cyberspace and technology. Our agora, the marketplace where people meet, change goods and talk has moved to the cyberspace, is privately owned and is very disruptive. There is a need to have reserves of democracy. Countries need to practice democracy. Local democracies everywhere are very important reserves of democracy, of place and it is from where one can rebuild a democracy after a crisis. So you always have to keep in mind that if you invest in a local democracy, you are investing in preparedness, resilience and democracy.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

Gabhaim buíochas as é sin. If we really look at it in real terms, how did any of us get on the Committee of the Regions? We were appointed. Some of the positions should be up for election because that would create interest among councillors and an appetite, which should exist. I might not be thanked for saying that by my delegation. Political legitimacy is supremely important. It was always so but particularly now where a person can say, "I have the mandate to say what I am saying and my electors elected me to this position". That aspect needs to be addressed, considered or at least examined.

We have democratic legitimacy and we must ensure it is more in the public domain. As has been said, there are many councillors who do not even know what the Committee of the Regions is and that really is not good enough. I am not sure it is the Committee of the Regions itself but, here in Ireland, ourselves, as a delegation, and perhaps this committee, could do some more work. It is something that I am very keen to do. It is very important to shout it from the rooftops. When there are storms or who is implementing the housing policy? It is the local authorities. Who implements all of the infrastructural and planning changes that we need? Local authorities do that work. They are the closest to the citizen. We need to strengthen that and represent it in Europe and make Europe work for us as local authorities.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Yes. This discussion has produced a lot of interesting ideas not least of which is the suggestion to have a European officer within each local authority, although that suggestion is not new. There is reporting by the members of the regional assemblies to local authorities. Is there a member from every local authority on the regional assembly? No, there is not.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

Again, that should also be elected, in my opinion. They are elected from their councils.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

The process needs to be more structured. If we are really real about local and regional government then that needs to be done. Every municipal district should be represented.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Yes. The idea of a summit between the various people involved in European institutions is a very good idea.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

Good.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Finally, the enlargement issue is on our work programme. We hope to speak to Commissioner Kos about that as well. It definitely is an issue for this committee.

We will have a second round of questions. First is Deputy Ó Murchú and next is Deputy Murphy.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Tá brón orm as a bheith mall. Tá fáilte roimh na finnéithe. I was caught up in attending another meeting and while I hope that I will not cover anything that has been covered before, that would be a first for me.

I will follow on from where the Chair was going. I get the whole idea of democratic legitimacy. There is no one who can talk in here, who previously has been a councillor, who will not talk about the fact. I get it that the witnesses do not want to say it and that it is not for them to make a determination about how every regional authority works but I would like to hear a comparison. Councillors probably get even more work sometimes than we do and must deal with multiple issues. Again, even on a technicality, the council is responsible for a lot. People probably believe that a council is responsible for a lot more. I think there are better means by which we can deal with issues, say, that deal with estate management involving the guards and wider issues of complex cases that need the HSE and others. I do not think, as much as there are attempts to do that through community safety partnerships and whatever, I do not think we are in the place we need to be.

I ask for a comparison - because the witnesses have an opportunity to see it and have seen it - of this State versus the position throughout Europe. I would say our councillors have insufficient powers and the power lies completely with the Executive. That is also accepting that we also need councillors and others to see that there is a wider world. We must also make sure that we provide your outfit with all the resources that are required to be a framework that will work for all. The witnesses should be able to answer all of my queries in three minutes.

Ms Kata Tütt:

Just to give one comparison: Spain. How can one compare it? I found a way. Some of the public spending is distributed between different levels. In Spain, if all public spending is 100%, the local government - the cities and towns - are spending approximately 10% or 15%, the regional level 40% to 44% and the last is the government. The regional level has healthcare, education, economy and care; it has almost everything. The president of some regions is like a prime minister.

If I compare Vienna and Budapest, similar sized cities that historically and culturally are super close, the size of Vienna's budget is 16-fold that of Budapest's. They are similar sized cities but are so different. The municipal council manages everything and has a lot of power, even its councillors have a lot of power. It is a full-time job. It makes it really resilient. It makes it-----

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Better planning

Ms Kata Tütt:

In politics, if you are re-elected, it means that you have been successful. Its council has been re-elected for the past eight years because its members invest a lot of energy in it and connect every single decision to the citizens. They explain, invest and are trusted. How much trust people have in their government is how to measure it. Trust is an issue for us politicians all across Europe. If people can see politicians and what they say is happening, it is important to keep trust.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

The Dutch model is one with which people are very familiar. The budgets are rolling. They are in touch with their executive all the time. They are professional politicians. There is clear legitimacy and a sense of accountability. This money was spent to build a sports centre and we are building it. That is the decision and we are doing it. The money is there and that is it. How long would it take in Cork County Council? We just cannot make those decisions in our municipal districts.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Councillors probably have very little power in relation to them. They may be lucky enough on one vote.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

Even that, sports capital funding is such a complex rigmarole. It comes from communities which is important as well. We really need to bring that back. We are very fortunate in Ireland that our communities are very politically engaged. My goodness, there is some amount of work done by community groups and the voluntary sector. Let us not throw the baby out with bath water. We have excellent community groups. We liaise with them and have structures such as the public participation networks, PPNs, and the strategic policy committees that work with them to deliver and have their voice heard in policymaking. It is just delivery and the legitimacy of the delivery. It is a frustration we hear a lot in so many policy areas.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Councillor Coughlan mentioned that she cannot do it within the municipal districts in Cork County Council; at least it has them. Cork City Council does not have municipal districts and neither does Galway City Council.

Cork City Council has local electoral areas. The big difference is local electoral areas do not have devolved decision-making. This is a big complaint I have coming from a Dublin local authority. When they got rid of the town councils, they replaced them with municipal districts. Those of us who did not have them did not get municipal districts, which means that all of the decisions have to be made at local authority level.

Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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The Chair is correct. There is a map showing a big gap for Cork. It also shows a big white gap for Dublin as well.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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It is a waste of the time of those local authorities. Unfortunately I cannot bring in comments from the Gallery. There will final contributions from Deputies Murphy and Gogarty because we will not have time. There will also certainly be an opportunity to discuss issues afterwards.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Today's meeting strengthens the case for a network of EU affairs officers across our local authorities. They should not just be seen as individuals who assist local authorities navigate the myriad of funding opportunities. They can also play a key role in information provision, education and communicating the positive work of, for example, the European Committee of the Regions. There is perhaps merit in sending a communication supporting this strategy to the Minister at the end of the meeting.

I have a final question on cohesion funds. I mentioned that Ireland, which is now a net contributor, does not benefit to the same extent as other countries now do from cohesion and structural funds. However, the Irish people see our membership of the European Union in a very positive light. I think 90% of Irish citizens view our membership positively, yet Euroscepticism is growing in some countries in receipt of significant levels of cohesion, structural and RRDF funding. How do we reconcile that scepticism when there is so much EU funding coming in to these countries? I do not share the view, but an individual has suggested to me that some local and regional authorities are using cohesion funds as slush funds and not communicating the source of these funds. What does Ms Tütt say in response to those claims?

Ms Kata Tütt:

There is a lot of truth in that. Eurosceptics are emerging all across Europe, but when you looks at those countries you always has to go in to deep to understand where it comes from. Euroscepticism is just a symptom. It is not about Europe. It is about the speed of the transformation. Everything is transforming. It is not just climate change; it is industry, technology and society. It is this constant push to go faster and faster. A lot of people are getting tired. This is what is happening. Euroscepticism is just a symptom because people have to blame someone. If someone tells a person who is tired, in pain, or suffering that it is because of migration or crazy people in Brussels, it is easier for them to say they will not suffer that much if we get rid of that. We know how this works. It is not connected to the European funds. I always say it is the role of leaders at all levels to understand how important the European framework is; it is not the citizens' role. They have a lot of problems on their plates. If a leader is a real leader and wants to serve their community, it is in their interest and it is in our interest to protect the European idea and European Union. We cannot expect our citizens to live like that. Every level of government and every politician has to understand that outside is worse than inside.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

The name of the proposed fund is the European fund for economic, social and territorial cohesion, agriculture and rural, fisheries and maritime, prosperity and security. One size will not fill all. Yes, the Cohesion Fund has its flaws. Any fund or policy will have its flaws but we need it to stand alone, particularly as we are taking about enlargement. We should not pull the ladder up. That is not good enough. We cannot be seen to be pulling the ladder up. Cohesion policy will help citizens across Europe and will strengthen the European Union. This proposed fund should certainly not be implemented.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I ask Deputy Gogarty to complete his contribution in three minutes.

Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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Does Councillor Coughlan feel that there should be more town councils and full-time pay for councillors? Second, Ireland is militarily neutral, as Ms Tütt knows, but we are not politically neutral. We support the Ukrainians, for example, and have been outspoken on the genocide in Gaza. In terms of the potential for this fund to help Ireland and help Europe deal with nefarious operators in the waters beyond our territorial waters, does she think drone technology is a game-changer for smaller countries such as Ireland and Denmark? Is there potential for manufacturing capabilities to produce this type of defensive armaments here?

Ms Kata Tütt:

As I understand, the new fund on defence will be able to finance investment in industries like drone technology but the decision is centralised, or will be centralised to, the European Commission and this decision has zero territorial dimension. It will be up to Ursula von der Leyen on whether to support the drone factory here or in Constana. It is your decision whether you want this superpower going to the European Commission.

Ms Gillian Coughlan:

On town councils, yes there is a role for town councils as our towns grow and as our population grows there is huge demand for this around the nitty gritty of footpaths, estate management and things like that. The town council could take that role. The municipal districts have benefited, particularly small villages and rural areas, so I think town councils and municipal districts operating hand in glove within the county council structure could work very well. And yes, of course, I think professional local politicians would benefit the system.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their brevity. I am sorry that we have a hard stop but I will draw a line under it there. I did not mention Ms Teresa Lennon as head of the European Regions Office in Brussels and who works in Dublin as well. I want to acknowledge her presence as well as Ms Chiara Malagodi who is here as head of the president’s cabinet. I also did not mention Micheál Ó Conchúir, ard runaí, coiste na réigiún, who was a great help for me when I was on the committee. I particularly want to thank the president, Ms Tütt and Ms Coughlan as head of the delegation, for coming here and giving us a lot of time but also the benefit of their experience and expertise. We are very grateful to them. It has given us a lot of food for thought and I look forward to the engagement next week with the regional assemblies when we will have a chance to play out many of these issues again with them. I thank everyone for their time.

Before we finish, I want to acknowledge the absence of Senator Chris Andrews from whom I have also received apologies. Senator Andrews was on the Sumud flotilla to Gaza. He only got back late last night having been illegally arrested by Israeli forces in international waters. I wanted to send the committee's acknowledgement of his work there, to welcome him back and acknowledge his absence today for that reason.