Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 8 October 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture and Food
Social Farming: Discussion
2:00 am
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means that a witness has a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at the committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's discretion. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside of the proceedings of the meeting of any matters arising from the proceedings.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against either a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of members participating online in the committee meeting where their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate online in a public meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts and any attempt to do so will result in the member having their online access removed. We do not have anyone online today. Everyone is in the room.
The agenda for our first session today relates to social farming. The committee will hear from several representative groups. I welcome from Social Farming Ireland, Mr. Brian Smyth, national project manager, Leitrim Integrated Development Company CLG; Ms. Helen Doherty, Leitrim Integrated Development Company CLG; Mr. Matthew McGreehan, social farmer, Co. Louth; and from Kerry Social Farming, Mr. Joseph McCrohan, rural development and social farming manager, South Kerry Development Partnership; Mr. Eamon Horgan, chair of Kerry Social Farming working group and host farmer; and Mr. Brendan O'Sullivan, social farming participant. The opening statements have been circulated to the members, who will have had the opportunity to read them. I will allow a short two-minute introduction of each of those opening statements before we go on to a question and answer session with the members.
We will start with Social Farming Ireland. I call on Mr. Brian Smyth.
Mr. Brian Smyth:
I thank the committee for the invitation. We are in the middle of Social Farming Awareness Week 2025, which is in its fourth year. We had an open day on a farm in Malahide this morning and we have come from there.
It is great to get this opportunity. We have been working in social farming since 2007, initially as part of a research project with UCD and then as a community of practice nationally. The Department of agriculture has funded us since 2016.
In a world where there is increasing social fragmentation, ecological imbalance and the weakening of community ties, social farming helps to transform that and provide a response. It is a way of cultivating humanity and fostering dignity, solidarity and resilience. Farms transcend their role as units of production. They become a place for care and learning. They act as bridges between nature and society, and as places for building connections between people and the environment, and between people and those who work in farming.
Social Farming Ireland provides an outcome-focused placement based on a plan. The person is on the farm, using those natural assets of the people, the place and the activities of the farm, and is supported in a person-centred way. The person spends time on the farm and undertakes various activities. It is non-clinical and community-based. We support a wide range of people, including those recovering from mental health issues, people with disabilities, people who are new to Ireland, older people, people with dementia, people who have a difficulty at school and homeless people. A wide range of people access these farms.
We cover the governance and quality of it so there is a quality experience. The farms are Garda-vetted and insured, farmers are trained and inducted, and there is safeguarding and Children First guidance as required. All of that practice is supported by our five development officers around the country. It helps farmers to remain sustainable in rural areas and promotes inclusion and holistic rural development. The farmers are paid for their costs, expenses and time. It supports a wide range of activities around the farm.
The Department of agriculture has been very important to the funding of this since 2016, and that has increased with the new tender for the national network. Roughly 200 farms are associated with the network, and they are located in every part of the country.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Thank you. We are tight on time. We move to Kerry Social Farming.
Mr. Joseph McCrohan:
I work with the South Kerry Development Partnership and manage the Kerry Social Farming project. With me today is Eamon Horgan, who is a host farmer and chairperson of the agriculture working group, and Brendan O'Sullivan, who is a participant.
Kerry Social Farming has been in operation since 2013 and seeks to innovatively target both an increasingly marginalised farming community and people with a range of disabilities by promoting social inclusion for them within their own communities. Working alongside these groups has been at the heart of the project.
At its heart, the process in Kerry is straightforward. Those men and women who choose to avail of social farming come to the farm one day a week for a few hours, a half day or a full day - whatever is agreed between them and the host farmer. Where necessary, their support worker accompanies them. The farm remains a working farm and normal day-to-day tasks are carried out, with time for a cup of tea or lunch. Social farming through the Kerry voluntary model of social farming continues for as long as the participant and the farmer wish. Brendan has been on the same farm for 13 years now. It is a voluntary model, so neither the host farmer nor the participant is paid, and it is not limited in time. We feel the voluntary model is a strength of social farming.
In Kerry today, we have 40 active host farms. Since 2013, some 81 farmers have taken participants, and there are 60 participants out on farms this week. Our vision is to promote and operate social farming in Kerry as a viable option for achieving improved quality of life, greater social inclusion and community networking for people with disabilities and those encountering mental health difficulties. Our mission is to work collectively in a shared service with the social care service providers, people with disabilities, local communities, local development companies, national and local government, the business community, the farming community and farm families. We have a wide variety of project partners but it takes a lot of work to co-ordinate the project. Our project partners include the Kerry Parents & Friends Association, St. John of God services, the National Learning Network, Inspired, NOVAS disability service, Resilience Healthcare, RehabCare, Enable Ireland, Down Syndrome Kerry and Cúnamh Iveragh. These are the people who send us participants. The two local development companies involved are South Kerry Development Partnership and North East West Kerry Development. The partners also include host farmers and social farming participant representatives. The HSE, Kerry County Council and the Kerry Education and Training Board are all involved and provide funding towards the project.
The key funding is provided by the Department of agriculture. For our project, we receive €100,000 a year. We are very grateful to the Department of agriculture and the various Ministers back through the years. However, we cannot take the project forward and take on the extra 81 people who want to get placements on farms until we get more money. We have received funding from Kerry AgriBusiness and Kerry Dairy Ireland to facilitate our project.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The committee is keen to keep a solid focus on the people who are involved in farming. Social farming is central to that focus on the person and the benefits for both the farm owner and the person coming onto the farm to take part in social farming. I will open the meeting to the floor. I call Senator Boyhan.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I welcome the witnesses and those in the Visitors Gallery. I am conscious that there are two groups before us today, Social Farming Ireland and Kerry Social Farming. With regard to Social Farming Ireland, which is the group I know better, I thank Ms Doherty and Mr. Smyth for the invitations to the open days. I was at an open day on Monday, with a number of other parliamentarians, at the farm of Nuala and David Reck outside Enniscorthy. I want to share with the witnesses and my colleagues on this committee my takeaways from that experience. Yet again, it stirred up in me the importance and significance of social farming and social interaction. I have been involved for many years. I established a horticultural unit in the mental health services of St. John of God, and I have tracked that for many years, so I am very familiar with this area.
My takeaways are captured in four key expressions that were given to me by participants, or their guardians or parents, on Monday. The first was: “My weekly attendance has increased my confidence not only in the farm environment but in my daily life.” Another was: “Support and feeling connected are of the utmost importance to me, and when struggling with anxieties about the world and other people, I find the farm a calming and supporting place.” The third statement was: “Providing social farming services has brought me a new lease of life, but it has brought a new lease of life to our farm and our neighbouring farmers.” The final comment was: “Allowing us to share our connection to the land in our community and with nature is powerful, empowering and supporting, and makes me find that I have a place within my own community.” What more can you say? They were the messages I took away from that. The one thing I asked about people’s experiences was how long they could stay there. It is all well and good having a service, but the continuity of the service is important.
My main question to the witnesses concerns core funding and the need for multi-annual funding. They cannot plan their programmes without multi-annual funding. It strikes me, having visited a number of the projects, and from reading the submissions from the Kerry group, that there are ongoing challenges around costs. I will deal first with Social Farming Ireland and then with Kerry Social Farming. How do they deal with funding? What are their current sources of funding? What would they like to see happen? I want this committee to have clear takeaways from their contributions today. I will begin with Social Farming Ireland.
Mr. Brian Smyth:
The Senator’s experience reflects what we see and hear every day on farms. Our core funding for the national network is from the Department of agriculture and comes through a tender process. That means we have development officers throughout the country with our colleague local development companies, of which we have five at the moment. The Department has tendered three times, most recently in March, and we have won that tender for the next five years. I offer thanks to the Department, the former Minister, Deputy McConalogue, and the current Minister, Deputy Heydon. That funding was increased last year and for the next five years to a level that is reasonable to allow us to develop the core.
The other element of what we do is to cover the costs of farmers. Farmers are providing a valuable support to a wide range of vulnerable people across the country. That is valued by the commissioning agent that commissions the placements. The placements vary for different people.
Those engaged in mental health services are on a journey of recovery. That may mean a number of placements, but they are time limited to 12, 20, 24 or 40 weeks. They may be repeated. They are based around a plan, which is reviewed. Some people access a couple of placements or numerous placements. Other people take-short term placements. In recovery, people are on a journey. They may progress beyond the support they need.
People with disabilities in particular need longer term placements. That is an issue for us because there is no such thing as personalised funding in Ireland to the extent there is in other European countries. The person with a disability does not have access to a personalised support or budget plan. Rather, funding is given to one of the big disability organisations and it more or less decides what happens. The freedom to make that choice and control, which is core to the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, is not-----
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am sorry to cut across Mr. Smyth but I am conscious of time. What is the core funding required for 12-month programmes?
Mr. Brian Smyth:
We have made a pre-budget submission to the Minister of State, Deputy Hildegarde Naughton, which looks at funding for people with disabilities for ongoing placements. We have a number of people who have their own budgets on their spending. They spend three, four or five years on the farm already. There are very few people in Ireland who have that, however.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What is the figure or bottom line? What is the cost for a 12-month period for Social Farming Ireland’s service?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What is that? Can Mr. Smyth spell that out?
Mr. Joseph McCrohan:
The Department of culture funding is core to us because we need to employ facilitators to go out to meet farmers and keep the farmers that are involved already. We have 40 farmers involved in Kerry so the heat is on us more than any other county because of the volume of what we are doing. Our project is bigger on a county-wide basis than anywhere else. We need to have those facilitators on the ground to mind, educate, bring forward and make the farmers we have better, but also find new farmers so we can take people off our waiting lists.
We go after everyone for money. We have a sister programme that works alongside Kerry Social Farming with funding through the Minister, Deputy Foley’s Department, namely, the school leavers programme. That is individualised funding. Some people with disabilities are receiving funding towards that. We have care workers working with South Kerry Development Partnership and they are putting people on farms. That is an operation in Kerry. It is the only place in the country where this is in operation. It is in operation because of our proven track record of long-term placements and commitment to social farming.
Kerry Dairy Ireland is absolutely delighted to give us funding because it sees the performance of our project. We are glad to work in partnership with such a professional organisation that has social responsibility at its core. Not only does it help us to identify new farmers, but it also gives us money.
We go after everyone to get money. We receive €100,000 per year, but we need to double that because we need to get double the number of participants out of farms. We want to have 100 farmers in Kerry Social Farming in five years’ time. I have no doubt about it. Social farming is built on the same principles as the GAA; namely, volunteering and people giving their time to others for the betterment of the wider community in a local capacity. It goes on as long as it goes on. We do not tell anyone what to do. We try to keep it going, as long as the participants want to and their care workers and the services they attend are happy and feel it is the right thing for that person. We continue on that basis. They are free to move onto something else if they wish. We are not holding people on farms or anything like that.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I welcome each and every one of the witnesses here, including the Leitrim social farming group and the Kerry partnership social farming group. All the people, participants, hosts, farmers and parents are welcome here today. I thank the Cathaoirleach for facilitating this meeting and inviting the participants because this is very important. We know people have little problems and there is nothing better than going out in the fresh air on a farm and seeing nature at work. People may see a sheep having a lamb, a young fella feeding a lamb with a bottle, a cow calving or a horse, pony or donkey. Nature can engage people for hours and keep them talking and interested.
As has been said, we have many farmers - what we call hosts - participating. Those people to me are vital for giving their time. It usually is one day or a half day per week, whatever the participant wants. I know Mr. Joe McCrohan and Mr. Eamon Horgan personally. They do tremendous work. There are people in north Kerry doing the same type of work. We have young Brendan O'Sullivan here, who is a participant. He is mad about this venture into farming and seeing what is happening. He is a great man for work and everything. The project has tremendous value. At present, we hear that there are 60 participants and that Kerry Social Farming is looking for more funding. It needs funding to increase its services. Mr. McCrohan mentioned €100,000. God almighty, compared to what is spent on different types of projects all around the country, this is a very fair-minded ask. This is a great committee, which I am proud of. Everyone engages, listens and participates. All members are listening to the witnesses. We will join together as a committee to ask as hard as we can for that €100,000 for Kerry Social Farming. I believe in the organisation. I see the work it is doing and the value it has. There is a mother and a daughter in the Gallery all the way from Valentia Island. That is a long way from Dublin, but they are here supporting the call for what is being asked for here today, that is, €100,000. In the context of the budget and the €9.4 billion given out yesterday, we are only looking for a small amount. We are only looking for the change. Honestly, the witnesses do great work.
One thing I hear is that the host farmer has to bring the participant to and from the farm. Would it help if there were a bus service, or some kind of a service like that, to help those farmers?
Mr. Joseph McCrohan:
We use Local Link in Kerry and provide what we call a social car model. If the farmer wishes to go and pick up the participant, he or she can do so. The farmer’s petrol money is covered so he or she is not out of pocket. It is a fantastic way to transport people as opposed to putting loads of people from one social grouping into a bus because there can be a certain stigma around that. Participants are brought to and from farms either though the Local Link network or by the social car model. It is wonderful for a farmer to visit the day care centre where these people are coming from because the farmer learns so much about their background. If they go to the participant’s home, they meet and build a relationship with the family, and those relationships are the things that carry on.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Mr. Horgan is a host famer. He is actually my next-door neighbour too. He sees the benefits first hand when the participant comes to the farm. How can we enhance things for him as a host farmer?
Mr. Eamon Horgan:
First, I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for having us here. I thank Deputy Healy-Rae and all the other Deputies, as well as those from Leitrim social farming. For me, it would be great if we could secure an extra €100,000 to give other participants and farmers a chance to do what we are doing. We go out in the morning to do our daily work and we just take what we are doing for granted. It is just some other job and we do it. For me, the heart-touching moment was when a participant took part in a video to give different feedback to our working group and project. That girl said that if it were not for social farming, which allows her to be out in the open in the field, look after sheep and take responsibility over her roles on the farm, she would be in a dark world looking at the four walls at home. It takes her mind away and it breaks up whatever she was thinking of during the week. She knows she has a farm to go to every week, which she can look forward to. It changed her perspective.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Can Mr. Horgan see the confidence of the participants growing?
Mr. Eamon Horgan:
I suppose I was coming to that. I saw this girl collect a youngster of mine from school, bring him home and do his lessons with him. They have disabilities through no fault of their own, but what opened my eyes was their ability to do a job.
I had another participant another day and when he realised he could do what he had done from a one-to-one between the participant and the farmer, he turned to me as I was driving him home and he said, "God, there is nothing wrong with me." He did not realise that he had those skills or little gifts to do his own jobs, and that is so important. If I ever remember the things I have done in my life, and I have many pleasant memories, social farming and working and interacting with them will be up there.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Could I just say-----
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We will let the Deputy in again the next time round. I call Deputy Kenny.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I welcome all the participants who are here and thank them for their statements. I am certainly conscious of how social farming has grown in County Leitrim over the past decade or more, and how it has provided leadership to many other places around the country. That is to be commended. Without that, many places would not have been able to get it started. The example was there. Often when we have a good strong example of how something can be done, other places can benefit so much from that.
Senator Boyhan, who was here a few minutes ago, talked about the funding as being one of the key things and, of course, it is. It is one of these things in society where we invest and we get a return. The return that comes from this small amount of investment is immense. It saves the State huge amounts of money in future care, etc., that it would have to put in to people. If these people get that correct small development at an early age and in the right environment, they flourish, do well and do not need the care that they might otherwise need. Thank God, we have moved from where things often were in the past in this country when a lot of people with different abilities rather than disabilities ended up in all kinds of institutions. This is an example of ensuring that we can have a facility in place which will give people that chance to be able to do something productive. Being with animals and being with nature enhances people's mental health and ability to move forward.
The asks that have been brought here today, both from the people from the kingdom and from the rest of the country, are small compared to the benefits which will come from them. They certainly will have the support of everyone on the committee. We will, of course, ask the Department of agriculture to enhance its funding. Funding also needs to come from other sources as well, particularly the Department of Health, because this is something which will save the Department and the HSE huge amounts of money in the future if we get the right funding in place at an early stage.
I have a few short questions, first on the numbers of participants. They mentioned that in Kerry, quite a number of farmers are interested in participating. In other parts of the country, is their experience similar?
Ms Helen Doherty:
It is. We operate across every county in the country. We have had a budget for ten years of €400,000. It is pretty modest, considering we are covering quite a number of counties. We have five regional officers and we are hoping to expand on that this year.
We have probably in the region of 250 farmers altogether engaged in social farming. A small number of those, maybe 20 or something like that, are still in development. We are in the process of running training again, which we are hoping to accredit through Teagasc through its green cert. All of those things are in development for us at present. We are working hand-in-hand with the agricultural sector, and with the Department of agriculture as well, on that.
As for participants, we have supported well over 1,000 people this year to experience social farming. A number of those are repeat participants and are coming every year, or have come for a number of years. Because of the huge variety of people - we do not say that we only accept X, Y and Z - all of our farmers are open to anybody who feels they need the support that can be gained on a farm. People are supported very well on these social farms. Our farmers are trained to support people.
We have supported over 1,000 people and we have provided an economic benefit to all those farmers that are providing that support as well. Just like anybody else who is working in these sectors who provide value to the people they support, the farmers also provide value. You can see that evident all this week on those social farms. For the participants that are coming to those farms, farms are very often a stepping stone for people to move into a different a space as well and to move towards training, employment, and maybe volunteering-----
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
And towards farming.
Ms Helen Doherty:
-----and other opportunities. Often it is not about farming at all. It is often about opening other doors in the community for people. We have had people engage in various other supports in the community. I heard a young woman on a farm this week who would not leave the house previously. When she was in the care of CAMHS, she was not able to leave the house. The first thing that she engaged with was social farming. She is now re-engaging in other things in our community and in education as well. That is transformative. As Deputy Kenny said, it is a small thing in somebody's life that transformed their life at the right time.
Those choices are being made by occupational therapists, social workers, community mental health teams, youth services, Foróige and the justice system right across the board all over the country. We have huge experiences being had by people and transformative ones.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I take it that a lot of the participants would be referred by whatever other service they engage in-----
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
-----and the experience is that there is not enough spaces and enough social farms available for them to go to.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
From speaking to social workers and all kinds of people in that area, I know they all recognise the huge value of this. Unfortunately, they all feel that there is not enough availability there. That is what we need to try and change-----
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
-----and that will come with funding.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Deputy Kenny and call Deputy Newsome Drennan.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank everybody for coming. It was great to meet Brian and Helen this morning.
We visited Albert and David's farm in Malahide. For us as suckler farmers, it was not our typical farm. The thing with social farming is that you do not have to change anything. It does not have to be a pet farm for all the world. It can be anything.
I said to my husband a couple of years ago that he should do this. Before I became a TD, I worked with adults with disabilities for 18 years. I was trying to get him to get involved because I knew how good he was with the people that I worked with. However, he said it was the education bit he would not be able for. It has been said here this morning that there is plenty of support for farmers.
We have heard that it is better to have a 20-mile radius so that people do not travel too far. How do we encourage more farmers to get involved and what has been done in that regard? Have they gone to the marts? Have they done that kind of stuff? A lot of the time, farmers are afraid to get engaged with it because they think it would be more work for them and they have enough work to do already. In fact, the majority of farmers I know in rural areas need this engagement. As Mr. Horgan said, it might just involve picking somebody up and dropping them off to go to a social farm. That might be their only engagement all day. It works both ways, I suppose.
What do farmers get in financial supports? Obviously, there is ongoing support and training throughout. I presume there is a helpline for them, as we were saying this morning. I know from working with adults with disabilities that everything could be going great and just one thing might click. Farmers may be slightly afraid of that, but to know that you have back-up and support would be important.
I think the witnesses are doing amazing work.
We were talking about institutions this morning. With the Brothers of Charity, where I worked, we are trying to get away from institutions. We were moving the houses out so people were not in dormitories any more. There was a farm on the place where I worked. I was not on the farm but I would have dropped one of the men off to the farm. From learning how to do jobs on the farm and caring for the animals, they could then go and work off site. That was the serious achievement. They were beaming because they had a job. It might have only been one day a week, but I thought it was great. Anything I can do to help, I will.
Mr. Matthew McGreehan:
I will give a snippet of my experience. I am a social farmer in County Louth. The Deputy asked what farmers get out of it. Farmers get an awful lot out of it, the job satisfaction and everything, but we do get paid. It is about €80 per day per participant. The participants usually come out from about 10 o'clock in the morning to about 3.30 or 4 o'clock. Social farming can improve the viability of farms greatly. Obviously it is not for every farmer. A lot of farms in Ireland are very vulnerable, especially in the livestock sectors, and it can keep farms alive and important in the community. The job satisfaction the farmers get out of it is immense. They see the people coming every week and growing and see what they get out of it. It benefits the farmer's family as well. It keeps the farm alive, and keeps the farmer in the community during the day. Many social farmers might otherwise have to go to Dublin and join the rat race on a building site. It is keeping people in the community, keeping townlands alive. The training is very important as is the work that Leitrim Development Company does. Social farming is a good news story but we want to keep it that way. We do not want anything going wrong or any scandals or anything. All our courses that we do throughout the year, all our ongoing training, it is crucial that we keep it and the Leitrim Development Company can keep us on our toes and keep us reminded when we have to do a course or whatever.
Social farming is all about our well-being. You do not have to have a mental health problem to keep your well-being right. It is about connection and our progression as people. We have people coming out from RehabCare, people with learning disabilities who come out every week. They get great value out of it and are nearly part of the family at this stage. They come out every Wednesday.
Mr. Joseph McCrohan:
In Kerry we have 40 people who go out and help us to find other farmers. They are the 40 existing host farmers. The one thing that will convince your husband to be a host farmer is that some other farmer comes and tells him he is doing it and shows him how to do it. You need to get a scale of people up. They are the ones, the Eamons and the other farmers we have, Bernie O'Donoghue and other people, who will go and sell the project for us. They will convince other farmers to do it. There is a huge knack in that. You need facilitators on the ground to get it started and then it mushrooms out. You need to have 40 or 50 farmers in any county to really go with this project. This is not a new story. It is going on now for 15 or 20 years. It is time now for the Government and the Department to say it is their project, put more money into it and keep it rolling. They should keep it farmer-centred. Some other Department could run off with it and then becomes a different thing altogether. That is a very dangerous position for the Department of agriculture. If they do not move now, some other Department will take it and it will go down a different road we may not want it to go down. They need to add the funding on. To have Brendan here with us today is proof that it works.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Thank you. I need to move on to Senator Lynch.
Eileen Lynch (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for being here today and for their presentations. I welcome the participants on the scheme who are here. I come from a farming background and am also from mid-Cork. In Cork, social farming is generally done through our local development companies. IRD Duhallow would be the one most local to me. I commend the witnesses on the fantastic work that social farming schemes do. It is very evident from listening to farmers and participants that it is making a real difference in people's lives. It is not just benefiting the participants but is also benefiting farmers. I would emphasise the impact it has on combating loneliness in rural Ireland and bringing communities together, since we are seeing a separating of communities at times. These schemes really bring communities closer together.
Aside from Kerry Social Farming, are all other social farming entities under Social Farming Ireland or is it largely local development companies? Are the rest of the social farming enterprises across the country run primarily by local development companies? Is Kerry an anomaly in that regard?
Mr. Joseph McCrohan:
I believe Duhallow would be the same as Kerry. They stand on their own two feet to get their own funding and they do their own voluntary models, as the Senator would know. That is what IRD Duhallow would want to do always, and rightly so. It is very important that the local development companies all really engage in this. As well as getting money from the Department of agriculture for this project, we need to get money from other Departments as well. That is our job. We are speaking here today about agriculture and I am pleading with the committee not to let agriculture lose this project. The Department of agriculture needs to put more money into it to get more benefit for very small money. It bridges the urban-rural divide. Some of the participants may be coming from a rural setting out to an urban area. It is a really good story for farmers. They are not getting battered about spreading slurry on the wrong day of the year, having too many cows in one place, carbon credits or whatever. This is a real project that puts farmers at the centre of the rural community. I have come across nobody who can say that what these farmers are doing is the wrong thing. It has brought farmers back to a position in society where they should be, in the centre of rural communities doing the best for the rural communities.
Mr. Brian Smyth:
I thank the Senator for her question. We would be delighted if every county or local development company in the country got €100,000 each, but if we add that up, it is quite a big bill. It is an awful lot more than the Department. We have suggested that and the reality is that it is probably not going to happen. We are a local development company, members of the LDCN network, as are south Kerry, north Kerry and Duhallow. We work very closely with about 18 of the local development companies that refer clients. We use the framework of those local development companies, the connections they have locally, to find farmers, commission placements and support the cohort of people they work with through the social inclusion programme, the workability programme and so on. We are very aligned and collaborate hugely with all the local development companies. We are one. We just had the lead on this project. South West Mayo Development Company, Waterford LEADER Partnership and West Limerick Resources are our contractors. They have an employee in their companies facilitating the hub in their regions. We would like nothing more than if they got €100,000 each, plus Roscommon, Sligo and Cavan, but we do not believe it is going to happen. We are delighted that Kerry does----
Eileen Lynch (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am sorry, I am just conscious of my time. I appreciate Mr. Crohan's points about it being an agricultural initiative, which it is, but it is also a lot more than that. The funding is only coming from agriculture as opposed to local authorities, health, disabilities or the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht. Have they been approached for funding for the work that is being done? It is such a great initiative and it affects so many different Departments and areas that, while it is very much an agricultural initiative, I do not see any reason it would not have cross-departmental funding. What link does South Kerry Development Partnership have with local authorities? I note it is stated in the submission that it fed into one of the CAP referrals. In general, do the social farming groups feed into policy groups, public participation networks or strategic policy committees on local authorities? This is for the witnesses' benefit to highlight all the good work they are doing. I come from a county council background and was on Cork County Council for six years. It is important to feed into those committees.
Mr. Joseph McCrohan:
Kerry Social Farming gets a small amount of funding from Healthy Kerry, and it also gets funding locally in Kerry. It gets some funding from Kerry Education and Training Board for the training elements of our programme. All the money we get from the Department of agriculture is spent on paying facilitators to work with farmers. All the other support comes from where it should: the other Departments. There is a lot of work locally on the ground, but our job is to pull all the strings together. The core funding is from the Department of agriculture. We are after everybody for money.
Mr. Brian Smyth:
On collaborations, we work with the LCDCs. There are a number of funded programmes for placements through the LCDCs. There is the disability integration fund, which was supported by former Minister of State, Senator Rabbitte, along with a wide variety of others. There is national lottery funding, for instance. A number of our farmers are members of public participation networks, PPNs. Mr. Matthew McGreehan is on the LCDC in Louth and I am a member of the secretariat to the PPN in Leitrim, so we are connected. I was at the Rural Pact conference in Belgium in September to speak about inclusion in rural development in Ireland through social farming. We are very tied in with influencing policy change to support people, particularly people with disabilities and those in mental health services, to recover. We have a policy officer providing evidence, and there are reports on the website on the experience. The evidence base is being built in Ireland for this now.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I welcome everyone here. The ask, for €100,000, is very small. If given, how would it filter down to a social farming group in a way that would enable it to say it has an extra €10,000 or €20,000 to spend in the coming year? This is very important. The whole concept is brilliant, of course. What else could we say? It is small ask and the results are so rewarding. The initiative will not be for everybody but it certainly will be for many. It does not have to be about looking at a sheep or cow. I will give a little story about a person I know who was not engaging at first with the host farmer and that farmer did not know what to do. His daughter came out and started picking blackberries and explaining to the girl in question what she was going to do with them. The two went inside with what they had picked and made a blackberry tart. The girl brought it home and the parents were so grateful. It was the first time that a present ever came from that child. This is a nice little story and it shows how engagement works. Look what came out of it. A blackberry tart was the result of the engagement on the day.
I would like the funding given to filter down to the likes of Mr. McCrohan. He has now grown the initiative to over 40 participants. He can engage with farmers and can see the money is having a genuine impact. If the money does not filter down, it is a problem. We, as a group, do not have a problem with the initiative. I thank Deputy Danny Healy-Rae for bringing the group up here today so we could all learn more about it. Fair play to him. It is a very small ask. You can see the effects of social farming in the brochure. It speaks volumes. The importance of the small amount of money received has been proven.
The witnesses are right about the Department. It is important that the Department act. I do not want to use the word “ownership” because there are other areas in need of funding. I am a member of the social protection committee also and believe there should be funding coming through on the social protection side also. However, the social farming concept is very good. People will only learn from the witnesses' achievements. Is Duhallow the name of-----
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes. We have to congratulate those concerned. The story of its setting up and the way it operates is worth telling those interested in other counties. Farming and the social element can gel very well together. We realise there are hazards on farms and that, as has been said, not every farm will be suitable. However, all I can tell Mr. McCrohan is that he is lucky to have the like of Mr. Horgan, and to have Mr. O’Sullivan availing of the service. I am sure Mr. McCrohan will say the same to me.
The farming community always welcomes with open arms. If it is at all possible for it to do anything for the wider community, it will. It is very good that there is a service whereby support is available if a person needs to come to be there with another person. All I can say is that when this committee next has the Minister before it, it certainly will not be found wanting in asking him to ensure funding is allocated. Is it correct that Mr. McCrohan is asking for €100,000?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I know that, and I know the organisation will take €120,000. Deputy Healy-Rae said it is loose change after the budget. I would call it a bit of good luck money for those in south Kerry.
I am delighted the witnesses are here. It is of great benefit to us today. This discussion is so different from that of last week, when we were arguing about the budget. Today we are talking about trying to provide money to people who are really making a huge difference to the lives of a small community of people. As has been said, there is nothing better for a participant than to be able to look forward every day of the week to the one day when they will get out and do something different and be part of the community. It gives them that little bit of confidence then to get involved in the community in other ways.
I thank the witnesses very much for attending. If they would like to comment on my remarks, it will be no problem.
Mr. Matthew McGreehan:
It is important that the committee know the wide variety of services that do and could use social farming. Senator Lynch mentioned the different services that should be paying in, for example, to rehabilitate offenders back into society. I have had people on my farm who, although they did not come directly from the probation service, had a life of crime but wanted to change things around and found themselves with a service that sent them out to me.
There are a number of ways that social farming can help society, and not just the obvious ones. There is mental health, Tusla, young people in care, Vision Ireland, which has people out with us at the minute, RehabCare, people with learning disabilities and the IPAS system. A variety of services could have people really benefit from being out on a farm. Society benefits in turn.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for attending. I compliment them on the fantastic work they are doing. It can help people who unfortunately have disabilities. The kind of disability is immaterial. It can also their families, which is also important.
The organisation calls itself Social Farming Ireland. It has five regional offices. Is it operating nationwide or only in certain counties? Could we have an update on that?
Mr. Brian Smyth:
We came into this with a pilot project that was INTERREG-funded. It covered 12 counties – the six counties of Northern Ireland and six in the South – between 2011 and 2014. When we met officials from the Department of agriculture, and we actually met Ms Sinéad McPhillips, who was the chief economist at the time and who has just been appointed Secretary General, and Simon Coveney, who was the then Minister, and they said at the time they wanted to see an expansion of social farming right across the country and they were going to put some funding in place to establish a national network. We bid for that funding to build the national network. We now have farms from Malin Head to Loop Head and from the Cooley Mountains to Bantry and everywhere in between. We have 200 farms and we are funded to do that. The model we operate is that those farms are established through the funding we receive from the Department of agriculture and they then progress through getting paid for the placements and support they provide, whether that is through Vision Ireland, RehabCare or whoever. The support the farmers give is as valued as it would be if it were given by some other service provider.
It is just happening in a different place with a different set of circumstances and it interests and helps people in a very different way than, say, going to a RehabCare centre in the centre of town. That is the difference. We are reforming service provision. That is why what Mr. McGreehan has just said is vitally important - that the reform of service follows the innovation that farmers provide and provides that new response to people's needs and funds it in a different way. That is what has been difficult. Agriculture has grasped that and funded the development of social farming, the models we have here, which have been very generous at that in many ways. Obviously, everything could be more generous. If we had the €100,000 for every county it would be great but we do not. What we have to do is find a way that this will manifest. What we did was we called it Social Farming Ireland and branded it as a national network. We have the lead contract in Leitrim Development Company but we are delivering a national contract, a national network that involves all of the players, about 350 service providers including disability, mental health and also schools. We have had LCA students come out from schools who have been struggling to stay in school to finish their exams, even the junior certificate, where a period on a farm helps their interest and learning. Really, what we are saying here today is that all these other Departments need to step up like agriculture did. They must step up. That would be a great help to both the Kerry model and to what we are doing.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Simply fantastic. Are the regional offices spread around the country in different locations?
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Where are they, roughly?
Mr. Brian Smyth:
We have one based in an office in Lismore in County Waterford which covers the south east. The other is in West Limerick Resources in Newcastle West. We have one in Balla in County Mayo. We have somebody based in Offaly and another person in Donegal. Then we have a small core comprising Ms Doherty, myself,and three other people in the office in Drumshambo. We deal in general with the administration and training. It is a very small, skeletal team and we are covering the whole country.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Like the Kerry group, there are fantastic groups out there and fantastic people doing work. Are there volunteers involved in this?
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is fabulous. It is great to see the volunteering side coming in too. When it comes to getting farmers involved in this scheme, is that easy or how does Social Farming Ireland get around to them? Is it involved with Macra or anything like that to make contact? It is also good for the farmers. As we know, some farmers may be living in rural parts and might not see anyone for the full week.
Ms Helen Doherty:
We engage fairly extensively with all the agriculture sector and have done from the very early days. We attend IFA meetings in various counties. Mr. McGreehan is very involved in the IFA. That is probably where he heard about it initially. However, we have a small team. We cannot be everywhere all the time but, for example, we were at the ploughing championships this year and we had huge interest in social farming, which was fantastic to see. Probably the strongest way of disseminating information about social farming and encouraging farmers to get involved, as Mr. McCrohan said, is one farmer speaking to another farmer. That word of mouth is really powerful and we try to bring that to the table as often as we can. We do not do any of those events without having our farmers there with us, alongside us. It is all very fine our talking about it but farmer input is invaluable. We work extensively with Macra, Teagasc and the IFA. They are all part of our network.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is simply fantastic. Keep up the good work.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Deputy Cooney. Senator Brady is next.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I too want to throw my support behind everything the witnesses do. Mr. Smyth and Ms Doherty are only down the road from where I come from. I come from a place called Drumlish in County Longford. We have a host family there. A good friend of mine, Donie McLoughlin, is one of the farmers who goes out there. Caoimhín McEoin in Colmcille does great work for them on the ground. Something our colleagues touched on was how we will to have to look at the model where it has to be funded across Departments – education, health, rural affairs and disability services. All those Departments have a hand to play in funding this. It can be rolled out nationwide. I think the witnesses said they have 200 host farmers there now, or 165 up to 200. Personally, after today I would like to get involved in this scheme, just going by the work outlined in the literature. It is a wonderful initiative. We have St. Christopher day service in Longford. I cannot emphasise how much work it does in the community in Longford. I am sure it is part of the whole social farming and that social aspect of it too. Any day you can have anybody out in the fresh air, no matter whether, as Deputy Aird says, it is picking berries or gathering eggs and going inside, boiling the egg and seeing how food is produced, is great. It is the whole aspect of it. There is an educational side to this too. It educates people to respect the farmer, the food, where it comes from and everything else. It is the whole package.
There are a couple of things I will throw at the witnesses. On my farm, I have public liability and employer's liability insurance. I am sure any of the host farmers will have to have employer's liability and public liability. Will the witnesses touch on that? Before a host farmer qualifies, I am sure there is some inspection or audit regarding health and safety and so on. What are the ins and outs of the insurance end of things?
The witnesses said it was one day a week but it can be longer, I am sure.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Farmers use relief services but if this was made known to the wider public people might buy into this whole service and I am sure farmers would buy into it more than they have so far. I welcome and support it. Will some of the witnesses touch on the insurance aspect and the wider aspect, such as inspections?
Mr. Eamon Horgan:
I will leave Mr. McCrohan to answer on the insurance side. I was just listening to the presentation there. I liked the statement that this social farming that we are doing, the Kerry social farming from my side, will have huge benefits down the road. I am glad the committee has seen that. It is great to be in the Houses here today, farmers among farmers and lobbying farmers. You could not get more ideal - people who understand what we are doing and are working hard on the farm every day. There was talk of budgets earlier and I will touch on the budget. Yesterday evening, I was waiting while the budget was announced. I had a path worn to Deputy Healy-Rae’s door giving out to him. My colleague, Mr. McGreehan beside me, is on the sheep committee in Dublin. We were waiting on an announcement on a budget. My biggest fear was to face an IFA meeting and to be asked why did we lost the money but, thanks be to God, due to the hard work of the Minister of State, Deputy Healy-Rae, and all the other TDs that budget was announced yesterday evening for the sheep. That meant so much but my fear relates to when I will be sitting up on the tractor next year. We are getting budgets from three or four different bodies. I appreciate where the Senator is coming from and he is 100% right but I am just speaking from security around what we got. We have been dealing with the Department of agriculture. We could not be dealing with a nicer and sounder group of people, all farmers. We see everyone like Deputies Fitzmaurice, Healy-Rae and Collins. I was listening to them the other night, and the Senator, on the television debate fighting for farmers the whole time and there are all the other Deputies here who are fighting for farmers. My fear is that I will be sitting up on the tractor listening to the budget hearing how we get X amount from the Department of agriculture, another 10% from another body, another 10% here and another 10% there. Two of the bodies we were getting money the previous year have had their budgets cut. Now, all of a sudden, Kerry Social Farming will find they will have to pull the money from us. That is the fear I have. I appreciate that there are other bodies involved in this. In my mind there is no sounder group of people who understand this, support it and keep it going, than the Department of agriculture.
We have an excellent relationship with the Department. That is where I am coming from. I would be confident that we will go away from here with that. I would greatly appreciate it because it is so important.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Thank you. I need to bring in Deputy Fitzmaurice.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for coming in. I have been on farms where, basically, a number of people have been on this together, for example, at Boyle and Ballinlough, at Murphy's in Athenry and at Barlow's in Glinsk. It is great what it has done.
I cannot get my head around one thing. I am trying to fathom it. Is the Leitrim body the overarching body for all of Ireland or are there different parts throughout the country? The witnesses said the Department of agriculture gave €200,000 or €400,000, and there are the other Departments, including the Minister of State, Deputy Hildegarde Naughton’s Department. How many farmers are involved? What is the administration cost against what the farmers get? I cannot fathom the whole structure.
Mr. Brian Smyth:
The Leitrim Development Company has a national contract to develop the national network. It amounts to €400,000 a year from the Department of agriculture. The Kerry organisation does the job for €100,000 a year in County Kerry. We do it for €400,000 in 25 counties. We subcontract three other local development companies to help us. That is how it works. We branded it overall as Social Farming Ireland so it would be a national network. Otherwise, there would be 26 social farming networks.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is €400,000 the total it gets, or are there other avenues through which it gets money?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is the network.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
How many people are involved in that?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
How many people are directly employed for that €400,000?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What percentage do the farmers get?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I heard the figure of €80.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
They may have to go and pick somebody up as well. I think farmers should be well looked after in this regard.
Mr. Brian Smyth:
They are. Last year, of the 1,000 people who went on farms, we paid about €800,000 into farmers’ pockets for the time they spent with those people. That money came from local development companies, WorkAbility programmes, Healthy Ireland, lottery funding and the HSE. It came from all over the place. That is why we went to the Minister of State, Deputy Hildegarde Naughton, and said that we need more of this because there are more people with disabilities who want to go out.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What about the €100,000 that Social Farming Ireland is looking for now?
Ms Helen Doherty:
The €800,000 is what our team of six people leveraged on top of the funding we get from the Department of agriculture. Some of the agriculture funding also makes its way onto farms because we use some of it for the initial placements, to set farms up and to help them with the initial couple of placements they may have. It does not all go to administration.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have seen it in action. I have been at places around the constituency when recognition is given to a group of people who are attending, such as youngsters with disabilities. It is a great system. I just wanted to establish the figures. Kerry is looking for €100,000 more. Is Social Farming Ireland funded enough?
Mr. Brian Smyth:
Our core from the Department is sufficient for us for now but it is not sufficient to pay the farmers for the placements. We would double the number of placements on farms and pay the farmers €1.6 million instead of the €800,000 we paid them last year if we got the money from the areas of health, social care, justice and education.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Social Farming Ireland distribute all the money?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I heard the representatives from Kerry say they got local money from X, Y and Z. Is that in addition to what Social Farming Ireland does?
Mr. Joseph McCrohan:
I want to be clear. In Kerry, we look after Kerry. We are very proud of that as a county. We have an opportunity, like every local development company will have next year, if the Department puts up a tender, to bid for funding again. Any company in the country can do so. We bid for it. We have to put in a proper bid, there are point scores and then we get the funding.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does the Kerry group get money from Leitrim?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
They are separate.
Mr. Joseph McCrohan:
That is correct. We are from Kerry and we look after Kerry. We are very proud of that. We have 40 farmers doing this in Kerry now. We are under savage pressure because farmers are telling more farmers about the success of this project, and they want to join. We need to manage the project with facilitators on the ground. We put our money into the facilitators on the ground. We do not pay farmers. We do not pay Kerry footballers to play for Kerry. We do not pay farmers. The principle of volunteering is the principle of our project, and we are very proud of it. If we want to pay farmers, we do it with a lot of other schemes, such as the rural social scheme, the water schemes and the whole plethora. If we want to get more money to farmers, we have lots of ways of doing that. However, if we wanted to pay farmers the rates that they should be paid for doing this, we would be looking for a minimum of €1 million-plus, and we would gladly write the cheques.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The farmer gets nothing in Kerry.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Perhaps Brendan would like to tell us of his experience.
Mr. Brendan O'Sullivan:
I do social farming. I do farming down in Kerry. I go to George Kelly and I do all the farming things. George tells me what to do and I do it because I love farming. I am going to keep up farming. I do not want to lose my farm. I do not want to lose the good farming. I would like to keep up farming and do it. That is it.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Thank you, Brendan. I call Deputy Lawless.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for coming in. It is a fantastic initiative. It is amazing. I thank Brendan for giving us his insight and first-hand experience. He is very welcome, as are all of the witnesses.
I want to ask about the funding as I am struggling to understand it. Kerry gets €100,000 per year but does not pay the farmers, and there is no mechanism to pay the farmers in Kerry for social farming. Social Farming Ireland gets €400,000 a year to run the other 25 counties and fund the farmers for that, but that is made up from other Departments and budgets. Is that right?
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
How did the differential come about?
Mr. Joseph McCrohan:
The Department put out a tender a number of years back for four model projects in the country. We were one of them. Field of Dreams in Cork, run by Down Syndrome Cork, was another, IRD Duhallow came in as another one, and the Leitrim Development Company came in. They were the four groups that got those pilots. The Minister at the time, Simon Coveney, wanted to see how this would work. It was thought that if we tried different things in different places, we might be able to come up with what would be the right model of social farming for the country. We worked away and did our thing as best we could. That tender is going to come up in 2026, we hope. If it does not come up, our farmers will continue volunteering, and that is it. If it comes up, we can bid again, and we can move from 40 farmers in Kerry to 60, 70 or 80.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What is the barrier in terms of going from 40 to 60? Where is the additional funding required?
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is marketing, really.
Mr. Matthew McGreehan:
I want to respond to the point by Senator Brady regarding insurance and training. I am with FBD. Its representatives come out to the farm and inspect it, and it is included in my package. Social farming is a business and the farmer, as a social farmer, is included in the package. FBD is very reasonable with regard to ensuring farmers for social farming.
Training is ongoing. I have been a social farmer for 12 years and my training is ongoing. For example, I will attend a first aid course on Friday. Leitrim Development Company keeps me and other farmers on our toes, including farmers who have been there a long time. I display my certificates for working with vulnerable adults, etc.
Deputy Fitzmaurice asked how much farmers get paid. It is hugely important that farmers are paid. The rate of pay is not sustainable and I said that the very first day when the pilot project commenced.
Mr. Matthew McGreehan:
Social farmers must be paid. Farmers are well used to working for low money but we have to get paid if the scheme is to be sustainable. There is nothing wrong with getting paid. Everyone else in the services is paid. It costs a huge amount of money to run these services and what social farmers get would only be minuscule. I reiterate that social farmers must get paid and the scheme is not sustainable in the long run if we do not get paid. I like social farming. I do not just do it for the money but I would not be able to afford to do it if I did not get paid.
Mr. Eamon Horgan:
I am doing the voluntary model. To me, they are both great models. If I were to be paid for this model at the rate that it is going, and at the rate that we should be paid, if someone landed to me with the going rate that moment then I would tell them to gather their bags and go. We have no bother with accepting the paid model but we will in the future sit in front of this committee looking for €1.5 million for Kerry Social Farming. If that money is there then we will do the paid model, no bother in the world. We would be delighted to pay the participants. Whatever about ourselves, if there was enough to pay the participants but we are working with a small budget. It is probably one of the best budgets that leaves this House here if you could see what it has done on the ground, and has done for the participants. The proof of the scheme is that farmers have continued with social farming.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The social farming network has 250 farmers. What are the blockages to increasing the number of social farmers from 250 farmers to 500? Is it the payment to the farmer or are there administrative issues in the system with training, etc? Where must additional money go to increase the number?
Mr. Brian Smyth:
I have travelled extensively across Europe. I have been in Romania, Poland, Italy and France and models differ. Ireland has two models. In most all of those countries, farmers are paid and they bid for funding somehow. As for social farmers in the Netherlands, the average income there is a turnover of about €250,000 turnover per year. Payments depend on the funding structure of disability services and mental health services. This is about how a society supports people and how people then access those supports. Our colleague from Northern Ireland was on the farm in Malahide today. In Northern Ireland, under legislation from 2014 - when we had our first pilot project - people with disability could apply for their own personal budget and they used that to buy the services of a social farmer. In Ireland, if we had personalised budgets for people with disabilities, it would allow that to happen.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for attending today. I was late arriving as I had something else on and I hope that I will not go over old ground. I thank Deputy Danny Healy-Rae for initiating this meeting and, from what I have heard, I will approach him with my own request for the budget next year.
I have a couple of questions on the models. It has been said there is an INTERREG European project. Did Mr. Smyth say it is a project or a pilot project? Also, is there any chance of INTERREG funding running out?
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Did that include funding from Europe?
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that funding gone?
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In terms of the overall picture, irrespective of whether it is a voluntary model or a paid model, who co-ordinates this on the ground? Who accepts a farm? All the witnesses are saying they want more farmers but not every farmer, with the greatest will in the world, is ideal. Ninety-nine out of 100 farmers could be ideal for this scheme but the 100th will view the scheme as providing cheap labour.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Who vets farmers? Who makes that call? Let us say a farmer is deemed acceptable and the scheme seems ideal, the scheme might not progress because a farm or farmyard is not safe enough.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Who decides that a farmer or his farmyard is acceptable? Who matches the client with the farmer? I ask because clients have different needs and, therefore, people need to be matched. Who co-ordinates all of that at a micro level?
Mr. Joseph McCrohan:
At a micro level, the facilitators on the ground who are paid by the Department of agriculture, will allocate funding. In Kerry, it is South Kerry Development Partnership staff. Ms Emily Moran and Mr. John Lynch are out on the ground. They bring forward the farmer, the suggestion is brought to the working group and if we feel the farmer is suitable then he or she is approved to start. That process is critically important because social farming is not for every Tom, Dick and Harry. We do not want people becoming social farmers because they see big bucks in this game. This is a social inclusion project that needs to be minded and nurtured. I have walked away from farmers who were suggested but they wanted to join for the wrong reasons, which were cash and money solely. Of course, we are not foolish in Kerry and understand that money makes the world go around. It is important that the vetting is done right, that insurance and everything are in place, and continue to be in place. One of the key elements, particularly for our project in Kerry, is farmer development. Our aim is to make him or her a better host farmer year on year so that he or she stays in the project. We do that because the longer a farmer stays in the project, the more fulfilment he or she gets, the better he or she gets at it and the happier the participants. The care services refer participants who have been identified as having an interest in farming and want to participate.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that the service provider?
Mr. Eamon Horgan:
I want to go back the other Paul, Deputy Paul Lawless, and his question on what extra money we seek. We have farmers and participants waiting. Let us say a farmer wanted to do a small bit of a safety upgrade on his or her farm. We would evaluate whether that work needed to be done. So it would be if the upgrade will benefit the participant, like wiring in a corner in order to put a few lambs into the space where the participant would find great peace and joy in feeding those few lambs. Little jobs like that. We do not put up sheds for farmers but just to get a picture of where our future money would go, that is what is holding us back at the moment. We have participants waiting to go on to farms and we want to get those farms ready.
Mr. McCrohan and I and a lot of us are farmers and so we know what a farmer is about when we go into his yard. We know what he is there for. We also know the county like the back of our hand, the same as Deputy Healy-Rae or any other of the politicians. We have a tight-knit community and have a way of knowing who is suitable for social farming. Yes, Mr. McCrohan and I have gone to the farms of three farmers and told the farmers that, sorry, what they were demanding was not about social farming but demanding improvements on their own farms. We told them that we could not approve that and could not spend money on that.
Ms Helen Doherty:
It is similar for Leitrim Development Company in some ways. Our five regional officers are the people on the ground who work extremely closely with farmers. They visit the farms on numerous occasions, etc. We take all of our farmers through a very extensive training programme. They learn about the framework for practice, and all the processes, procedures and policies that we have in place to safely deliver social farming. Once farmers have completed training we start to work with them on their farms. We provide mentoring on their farms and visit the farms several times. Before anybody is placed on a farm we have to be happy. Effectively, we have a training programme and an accreditation system for our farmers.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Let us say I am involved and some person is due to inspect my farm in the morning but a contractor rings or the weather changes and I have a busy workload, and tomorrow is not going to be suitable for me to have anybody around my farm, who would co-ordinate a change of plan at the eleventh hour?
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing me to contribute as I am not a member of this committee. First, I wish to acknowledge the presence of my brother, Matthew McGreehan. He is my go-to person when it comes to social farming. I am a great believer in social farming and it is great that this committee is having a robust discussion on social farming.
I want to ask, from the two points of view, what are the witnesses' experiences. This is not just about the time on the farm or the administration around it. It is about the added value that each farmer is giving into their community, the added value that the individual takes onto the farm and to their families, and the added value for the families who have social farmers on their farms. What can we do as Oireachtas Members to support that? If the voluntary model is what some farmers want to go to, I think there is a value and an economic value in supporting farmers. In the context of all the talk about low incomes and farmers, it is about keeping small farmers in rural marginal areas on the land with their families. When we are talking about diversification of the farm, and when farm incomes are at an all-time low, it is an absolute miracle that something so positive like this can keep families farming and keep families on their land. What can we do as a committee and as an Oireachtas to make sure we have more people supported in the positive activity of social farming and more families taking on social farming?
Mr. Joseph McCrohan:
It is a very clear answer; if the Department could double the budget every five years for all of us. That is as simple a way as I could put it. It will be a real task for us to make sure that we get the farmers to match that budget and for people as participants but we are up for the game. There is merit in it. The Deputy has alluded to it. Some farmers want to get paid and if they do then that is fine; pay them. Some farmers might want to do it voluntarily, and if they do I would not stop them. Would the Deputy stop a person because they wanted to volunteer?
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
No. Of course not. I am not asking that.
Mr. Joseph McCrohan:
Because if a person wants to get paid and will not do it unless they get paid, that is alright too if we can find the money to pay him or her. At the end of the day, let the show roll on and make sure the Department puts out the tender next year. They were looking for four pilot projects ten years ago. I think they would want to be looking for 24 or 25 pilot projects with one for every county at this stage of the game. In Kerry we have the biggest number. It is 40 people in a massive county. When you think about it, we need to get to 500 or 1,000 farmers doing this if we really want to keep rural Ireland going. They are there. They are training young fellas, and boys and girls, at all sports across rural Ireland and they will do this.
Mr. Brian Smyth:
The programme for Government mentions cross-Department actions and cross-department interaction. It is a great opportunity for the Department of agriculture to lead out on something that provides huge benefits in health and social care in children, equality, integration and in education. Bring those Departments together to say that social farming delivers. Farmers are delivering for our Department. This is something that could be taken up.
It is mentioned by the Minister, Deputy Norma Foley, in the recently launched National Human Rights Strategy for Disabled People 2025-2030, when she talks about the cross-Department approach to addressing barriers for disabled people. Access to farming and access to social farming for disabled people is a cross-departmental barrier. I believe the Minister's Department can help and the Department of agriculture can help.
As Mr. McCrohan has said, it is about the expansion and development of the funding for the concept, regardless of which model people access or provide the support under. The cross-departmental work is important in an agricultural and rural development policy that the Department is funding, because they see the benefit of diversified farm income and multifunctionality. The other Departments have not stepped up to the same level and that should happen now. Even if that fund came through the Department of agriculture, the mechanism could be defined. That would be new and it would be innovative if there were two Departments working and one of them funding it. That would be new. For disabled people, people who are recovering, people who are homeless and people who are new to this country it could be delivered through a single Department. That could be the Department of agriculture because it has taken the lead.
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is there anything specific that we can support the farmers with, bar the obvious budget? What of the other supports around them to support them and encourage more people to get into it? I am aware I have only 30 seconds here.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There is so much ground covered there. So many members wanted to get in on it and to ask about it. We have run well over our allocated time. I thank the witnesses for the engagement and for the huge amount of information. Most people got in for a big speak. Did Mr. Brendan O'Sullivan get to cover everything he wanted or is there anything he wants to add?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses.