Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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Apologies have been received from Senators Nikki Bradley and Laura Harmon. The purpose of today's meeting is to continue discussion on inclusive education for persons with disabilities. On behalf of the committee, I extend a warm welcome to Dr. Hartney, Dr. Tamming and Dr. Craddock and thank them for all the work they do.

Before we begin, I will read a note on privilege and housekeeping matters. I remind all witnesses of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege.

I remind members of the constitutional requirements that, in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House.

I now call on Dr. Aideen Hartney to make her opening statement.

Dr. Aideen Hartney:

I thank the Chair. The National Disability Authority, NDA, welcomes this opportunity to appear before this committee on the topic of inclusive education. The NDA is a statutory agency established to provide evidence-informed advice and guidance to the Government on disability policy and practice and to promote awareness and application of universal design. This statement is organised according to the topics of interest identified by this committee.

Article 24 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities confers a right to education for persons with disabilities and requires State parties to have an inclusive education system that supports the full development of human potential and sense of dignity and self-worth. In our recent written submission to this committee on the theme, we highlighted that despite the fact that the Irish policy and legal position is that all children can attend and receive support to be educated in the mainstream, the Irish statutory education system is likely to be considered a dual system by the UN monitoring committee on the convention. This is due to the rise in numbers of special classes and special schools as a response to the perceived educational needs of learners with disabilities. The UN committee believes that inclusive education involves learners with disabilities undergoing their education in the same environment as mainstream students, enabled by the built environment, teacher competence, assistive technologies and other supports as relevant. In previous concluding remarks from the UN monitoring committee, State parties have been criticised for segregated provision of education, particularly where the committee sees the scale of this segregation as persistent or increasing over time.

The Government has recognised the disconnect between current practice and the goals of the UN convention, as is evident in the commitment in the newly published national human rights strategy for disabled people to developing a road map towards inclusive education. The NDA advises that this important work will take time to achieve as it will involve close engagement and consultation with learners with disabilities, disabled persons' organisations, parents and families, educators and experts in the field. We are aware of examples of good practice from other jurisdictions including Portugal, Italy and Canada that can offer learning for the Irish system. It should be noted, however, that even in these jurisdictions challenges remain in managing the allocation of resources and building awareness and understanding of true inclusion.

The principles of universal design offer a route to designing and delivering an education system that can meet the needs of all, regardless of ability or disability. The NDA's statutory centre for excellence in universal design has developed an advice paper on universal design in education that sets out a whole-systems approach to inclusive education based on four pillars: learning, teaching, curricula and assessment; supports services and social engagement; the physical environment; and the digital environment.

Assistive technology, AT, is recognised as an important enabler in an education setting. Approximately a quarter of students in secondary schools report needing some support around accommodation to enable them to complete their second level education journey, which can include access to technologies or additional personal supports. Challenges remain, however, in the level of awareness from teaching staff about what technologies are available or in having the training needed to keep up with the pace of technological advancement. Where AT is provided, the management and ownership of this system can cause further barriers to smooth transitions between schools or educational stages. As AT is often a requirement across the life course, it is important that the State develop an approach to its allocation that recognises this and is appropriately person centred.

Delivery of universal design in education also involves ensuring that transition points in the education journey are as seamless as possible for students. In our work we have frequently advised on the importance of managing transitions between second level education and employment or further education and training opportunities. This is a point at which students can often fall between stools and be routed into specialist services where their potential is not fully realised. The same risks exist at the start of the education journey. The access and inclusion model of support in early childcare settings has seen some welcome results in developing fully inclusive settings where children receive tailored supports according to their level of need. More work is needed, however, to manage the transition between these settings and primary education. In particular, work is needed to communicate clearly to parents, families and educators what the next stage in the journey looks like and what supports will be in place for the learners in question. We understand the anxiety on the part of parents to have their children educated in an environment where the necessary supports are in place. Due to a combination of a lack of awareness of what is currently in place in mainstream education and a recognition that the quantum of support provision is not always as it should be, some parents can believe that specialist education provision is the only way of ensuring their child's needs can be adequately met. The NDA advises that the response to this cannot be a constant increase in segregated education settings but rather must be a dual approach to building capacity and resources in the mainstream joined with close engagement with families to build trust in this system.

The NDA has recently completed a rapid evaluation of the pilot enhanced in-school therapy model and submitted a report to the HSE and the Department of Children, Disability and Equality. The learnings are being used to inform the development of the new education therapy service. While in principle schools can be an appropriate place to deliver therapeutic supports, we advise that further work is required to offer clarity on where they would be efficiently and effectively interacting with community-based therapy supports and how inequity can be avoided in the system if these in-school supports are confined to special schools.

We thank members for their attention. Dr. Craddock, Dr. Tamming and I will be happy to discuss any of these matters in further detail.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Dr. Hartney. I now invite the members of the committee to put their questions. When I call on members to speak, I ask that they adhere to the agenda item scheduled for discussions. I will call on members as per our speaking rota. They have seven minutes, which includes the response from the witnesses. All members will get an opportunity to speak. If there is time, we will have a second round.

Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in to meet with us again.

I thank the NDA for all the fantastic information provided, and the team here as well. I was on the bus coming in this morning after being here late last night after the budget and it is fantastic information. Effectively, if we distil it down, this is potentially our roadmap. I was just saying to the group here that I am not so sure I have questions. Things I did have queries about have been very comprehensively answered. However, I do have a few questions remaining.

Does the NDA directly advise the new unit in the Department of the Taoiseach or are the advices - I will not say limited, because they are not in any way limited - going only to the Department of Education and Youth and the Department of Children, Disability and Equality? I am just conscious of the amount of information, including pilot studies producing excellent results, that could and should be replicated as a priority. Is there so much information, however, that it will be a barrier to timely action? Will the NDA be directly involved in the assessment of need review process?

Does the NDA carry out or is it aware and therefore accessing any studies on integrative supportive therapies, for example, art therapy, music therapy, drama therapy or equine therapy? It is similar with regard to different behavioural methods, such as mindfulness, that are not necessarily mainstream but anecdotally are producing excellent results as an assistance in respect of disregulation among children. Is the area of sensory and nurture rooms something that comes under the scope of examination of the NDA?

Given the delays in recruitment for the NCSE and HSE of therapists in speech and language, occupational therapy and the field of psychology, how does the NDA see a prioritisation within that timeline we have for the first review by the UN in 2027? Is any type of two-year project under way? I am not referring to a quick fix because I can completely understand the complexities and importance of getting things right. I refer, though, to the example of there being two months for a child or two years for a teenager transitioning out and maybe heading into the workplace or rehabilitative therapy. What can be done in the shortest timeframe? I do appreciate and I am very grateful for the amount of information the NDA gave us in advance of this meeting.

Dr. Aideen Hartney:

I thank the Deputy. I might try to answer a few of those points and my colleague Dr. Tamming can come in on a few others. In relation to the Taoiseach’s office, we have had an initial meeting with the unit and we anticipate that we would be closely involved and in close conversation as it continues its programme of work. The unit has developed a work plan and has been speaking with relevant stakeholders. I suppose this is to ensure there is no duplication of effort in the system.

Where we see the value of that office is in its ability to play some sort of co-ordinating role where, as the Deputy rightly said, there are many different parties and State actors involved. In some ways, this is a little bit similar to the role we play where we are kind of knowledge carriers throughout the system. We work closely with our own Department of Children, Disability and Equality on advising on some of the items it has progressing. Equally, however, where the Department of education, the Department of Health or any other Department sets up a working group to tackle a particular issue, we would always aim to be represented on such a group, subject to the availability of resources. That enables us to understand and see a little bit about what is going on in the system. We then know where to start looking when we do then start some more intensive investigation. This has been very useful and we hope it would continue.

In relation to the assessment of need review process, this is being led out within the Department. We are not directly involved as of yet. We anticipate probably making a submission on that and we remain ready to offer advice if called upon.

The Deputy also referred to what can be done to prepare us for investigation by the UN monitoring committee. One of the main commitments in the new national human rights strategy is the development of a roadmap to inclusive education. While it will take a considerable period of time to effect the changes that we would be advising should be made in the system, if that roadmap could be developed and agreed and a plan for implementation were to be in place by the time we come to our State dialogue, that would be recognised as a good faith gesture. I was struck by one of the countries we would have been looking at in relation to examples of good practice. Reference is made to laying the groundwork ten years out to build capacity in the system. This is just to make the point that it is a very long process.

On transitions, our key learning is that they should start as early as possible. It should not be just a few months before a student leaves their second level education. All the evidence shows that, for example, career guidance and consideration of what happens after school should start as early as age 13 for students with disabilities. Dr. Tamming might have a little bit more to say on the therapies.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

The alternative-type therapies are not something we would be experts on by any means, but I suppose there is evidence that, for any child, regardless of whether they have a disability, extracurricular activities and things they enjoy are very important for their own development. We also know children in poverty have much less access to these and many children with disabilities are children in poverty. From those perspectives, any supports to access some of these therapies, or not therapies as such but just extracurricular activities in the mainstream, are very important.

In terms of the funding of these, there is not much evidence on an empirical basis that they work. It is not that they do not work, it is just difficult to measure whether they work. If we take something like equine therapy as an example, the people who access that tend to be from higher income families. This means there might be other things within that child’s life or very motivated parents or something that is influencing that rather than just the equine therapy itself. It is quite difficult to tease out how effective it is. It is difficult, therefore, to make recommendations around supporting those types of therapies on any sort of a large basis without that evidence.

Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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Did Dr. Craddock wish to contribute?

Dr. Gerald Craddock:

In talking about initiatives, we are heavily involved with two initiatives. One is called The Big Idea that looks at teenagers in transition year and the whole idea of them engaging in their local community around creativity. I brought an example of a creativity card kit we developed as part of that initiative. Those involved are working with more than 10,000 students this year working through transition year. We are also working with Junior Achievement Ireland in primary schools to look at the power of design as a key to understanding diversity in students' own communities and their own homes and how that impacts on engaging with students with different abilities in their own classes, for starters. There is a significant positive impact on students in primary and secondary school. We may come back to the committee on both these aspects.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Dr. Craddock and all the witnesses. We will now have a changing of the guard.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Senator Murphy O'Mahony for taking the Chair in my absence. I call her now to make her own contribution.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I am multitalented. As my colleague said, I think the NDA for the very comprehensive information it sent to us already. A lot of the questions we had were answered in it, so fair play to the witnesses. It is now more a matter of expanding in this respect. What steps are being taken to improve teacher training awareness around assistive technologies in mainstream classrooms?

Dr. Gerald Craddock:

We are waiting for a report that it is hoped will be published before Christmas. It is a collaboration between the World Health Organization and our parent Department of Children, Disability and Equality.

It is looking at the whole service delivery of assistive technology in Ireland, including in education. I have been involved in this for over four decades, and I have engaged with the likes of Mary Immaculate College and St. Patrick's College in Drumcondra on integrating assistive technology as part of their training.

One of the big issues is that technology is constantly changing. It is very hard to keep up. One of the systems we have looked to get reinstated is an online portal on assistive technology. It was in place in Ireland through the Citizens Information Board, to give knowledge not only to teachers but also to parents because over 60% of assistive technologies are purchased privately rather than through the education or health systems. It is an ongoing issue. We are definitely seeing more discussions, as well as elements and modules being implemented into teacher training, with St. Patrick's and Mary Immaculate being the two biggest training colleges in Ireland.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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Transition points, such as those from preschool to national school, national school to secondary school and secondary school into further training or the workforce, are a big step for anybody. One of the biggest steps for anyone with additional needs is actually from playschool or preschool to national school. Preschool can be very easy-going if children do not turn up. It is not as tied down as national school is. How could families be better supported in the transition from preschool to national school?

Dr. Aideen Hartney:

The Senator is right. That is a key transition point where some more work needs to be done and various Departments are looking closely at that. It is about providing information to parents so that they can feel secure in what the next step looks like. With the best will in the world, a lot of parents are viewing it back through their own memories of what primary school looks like and probably making some assumptions about what their child can or cannot handle.

We did a piece of work a few years ago to examine the merit of what are called "over-age exemptions", where somebody is allowed to do a further year in early childcare before the transition to second level. The research shows that there is no documented benefit of people having that extra time in playschool and that they would be better transitioning on with their peers. It is about providing assurance for parents that junior infants is not as rigorous as they might feel and that there would be supports in place. It is about developing that education plan for the child, tailored to his or her needs and ensuring that this is clearly passed on to the primary school and that it will be ready for it. There are some good examples from Finland, for example, as to how that is managed in those early years settings. I could send that information on to the Senator. I do not think it was in our initial paper.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

The AIM evaluation that was done of the first couple of years of the model did identify this transition point as an area that could be strengthened. However, the systems do not really talk to each other. Primary level is in the education system and preschool is with the Department of Children, Disability and Equality. There are these interdepartmental silos that exist that are challenging to overcome. The system is not set up for a primary school teacher who is going to be teaching that child the next year to come and see them in preschool, or for the child to come and visit the primary school a few times. There might be pockets of good practice, but in general it is not a thing that happens.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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Maybe it is something that could be worked on. Dr. Hartney mentioned Finland there, but the report mentioned Portugal, Italy and Canada. If the NDA had to name a few practices from these countries that could be effectively adapted here, what would they be?

Dr. Gerald Craddock:

To take Portugal as an example, Miguel Valles was here in December 2024. He heads up a rehabilitation centre quite similar to Enable Ireland or the Central Remedial Clinic. In 2018, a change in legislation meant that all special schools were closed and the children were to be reintegrated back into their own primary schools. As part of that, all of the support teachers and therapists were reintegrated into these primary schools. It became a network of support. A key part of that was engaging with parents to ensure they were on board as part of this. I was talking to Mr. Valles in the last couple of days and he said it was a transformation overnight. The legislation was put in place in 2017. In 2018, the special schools were shut down and reintegrated into their communities. All the support teachers, therapists, etc., were then dispersed. That becomes a network. There are 154 networks across Portugal that are all connected. They have a case manager who manages these integrated teams as part of the system.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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It sounds amazing.

Dr. Gerald Craddock:

A key part of what has happened is that the number of children has increased in mainstream schools, but the supports have not increased. The reason is the expertise has been developed over the last six to eight years in these schools, and they were able to cater for these children without having extra supports. That was a significant finding from work that has been done in the last year.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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To clarify, what Dr. Craddock is saying is that in Portugal they have the same resources but are getting far better outcomes from the model used there.

Dr. Gerald Craddock:

Yes, it is the same. There is very little change as regards extra supports going into schools, mainly because of these integrated teams and the knowledge they have developed in the last seven years.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I apologise that I was a bit late. I was at another meeting before this, but I have read the NDA's opening statement. The NDA referred to the two pilot schemes that are going on. How should that be embraced? What resources will be needed to replicate that around the country?

Senator Murphy O'Mahony raised IT and how it is changing. I see with young people that no matter what age they are, they seem to embrace technology. Is there anything we can do to put that on the agenda or to promote it with young people with a disability? I see some of them and they are well able to use the IT equipment that sometimes I would not be able to use. Is it a plus? Should it be better rolled out?

Dr. Aideen Hartney:

To clarify, does the Senator mean the transition pilot schemes?

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

There are very positive findings from those and they are positive case studies. I have heard a little bit about both of those. One of the problems is that we are a great country for pilots, but not so much for the implementation afterwards. I know that one of the pilots was funded by the Department of education but is run by WALK, the Walkinstown association for people with disabilities. It is very successful but is ending at the end of this year with uncertain future funding. The problem is that they build up a certain expertise among staff and gather skills but it then ends and the staff leave. If they get funding, they have to recruit again. That lack of continuity is an issue. In terms of scaling it up, they both have to be fully evaluated. You have to see the evidence that they both work, but the preliminary data is certainly very promising. It is then a case of rolling it out, getting all schools on board, setting up the system, setting up the structure, staffing and building on the momentum that is there. It is very much about getting people into meaningful after-school work.

It could be voluntary work or further education and day services is where some people go. Often participants have had opportunity to explore other avenues before they decide that is what is most suitable for them.

Dr. Aideen Hartney:

I will add to that that in some of these pilots, what has become most apparent is that the value is in a co-ordination function or role. Somebody in the local area who knows the stakeholders and key actors in that area and who can bridge some of those knowledge gaps for the person. That is where some of the resources are best placed. As Dr. Tamming said, at some point, if the evaluation shows this is an example of good practice, it would be helpful to stop it being a pilot and allow it to-----

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Permanent.

Dr. Aideen Hartney:

-----become part of how business is done.

On the IT side of things, more and more students with disabilities in schools are using technology to provide accommodation for themselves. It is on the agenda and it is about training for the teachers as well as the students as to how this becomes embedded. If we think of it as along the pathway of life whereby, for example, if somebody is using technology within the classroom to assist them, that then carries through to assessment situations. It is about that kind of joined-up thinking. Dr. Craddock answered Senator Murphy O'Mahony's question in terms of what is necessary in relation to AT but we are conscious these are modules within the teacher education and training they get. Perhaps there is scope to look at that overall curriculum in order that disability competence becomes a wider part of teacher training, along with AT or access to IT. I am conscious it is already a very busy curriculum for them and that would need to be considered.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I thank Dr. Hartney. My next question - and I have seen it myself - relates to some schools where, while they do not outrightly say they do not take in children with disabilities, there certainly can be barriers. How can we overcome that? Have the witnesses come across that? Some children might be sick on a regular basis or whatever and cannot attend or supports have been put in place to help them when they are at home. However, I have a concern about some schools actually trying not to take people with disabilities. We should be inclusive.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

I might start. That is to the heart of the matter. If Ireland is to go on this journey towards inclusive education, the political message from the top will need to be that children are educated in their local schools. It is about considering the resource envelope that would be needed to enable the school to accept students, rather than feeling that they have to refuse them. That is about the built environment, the network of support available to the school, such as they have in Portugal, and the teachers having the necessary training. It is about the curriculum being designed, as well as close engagement with families, that is, both the families of children with a disability in order that they can feel secure that the education offering will be okay for their child and equally, other families who are sometimes concerned that the resources will be diverted from other kids in the class. It is about a national conversation and it will take time to effect.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Dr. Tamming has answered the question. That is great. I thank her.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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We now move on to the Social Democrats. Deputy Quaide has seven minutes.

Liam Quaide (Cork East, Social Democrats)
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I thank the panel for being here today. In the context of inclusive education and upholding the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, does the National Disability Authority have a position on suspensions of children from special schools? Has the authority’s attention been drawn to patterns of concern in particular settings? The reason I raise this is that my colleague, Deputy Rice, and I met parents of children attending Carrigaline Community Special School, and it is on the public record-----

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy can talk generally about the issue but he should not mention a school because it is not here and we do not have its details.

Liam Quaide (Cork East, Social Democrats)
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I appreciate that but if we only talk in the abstract, there is limited meaning-----

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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The school is not here to defend itself.

Liam Quaide (Cork East, Social Democrats)
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I know that. I am just trying to give some real-world context and I think that is fair enough when we have done that previously.

There was a report in the Irish Examiner on 21 September that highlighted the fact there have been 18 suspensions from Carrigaline Community Special School since 2022. The school was set up in 2021 and to give context, it is a school where the children range in age from four to 18. They must have a dual-diagnosis of autism and an intellectual disability to be eligible to attend. There was a huge effort to set up the school over a number of years. Placements for the families were hard-fought for.

This pattern of suspensions was of such concern that the Taoiseach himself was asked to comment on it during a diplomatic trip abroad. He has been very involved in engaging with the school over time, as have other local politicians. There has been a very comprehensive level of engagement with this school. Despite all of that, these issues persist. It is a source of huge distress for families that behaviours that are intrinsically linked to the children's disabilities are being responded to with punitive measures. There have historically been resource issues in the school that have been very well documented. The former Minister of State, Anne Rabbitte, was very involved in trying to address that and she experienced a lot of frustration. It appears that there is a particular cultural issue. Are our witnesses aware of these kinds of patterns of suspensions in schools and in special schools specifically? Does the authority have a position on that? Is there a policy position that can inform a response to it? It seems as though with the best political will in the world, these problems are very entrenched in particular settings. I have no doubt Carrigaline Community Special School is not the only one. Have our witnesses done any work in this particular area? It is a very significant barrier to inclusive education, for this school in particular.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

I am not aware of the specifics of that school, but in general, I know the Department of Education and Youth and the NCSE take this issue very seriously and are trying to monitor not only suspension but reduced school days and are trying to put guidance in place around it. The Deputy is completely right. Behaviours that challenge are often communication mechanisms and that communication is not understood or properly regulated or whatever. There are behavioural therapies around that. The cultural change is about understanding that, and teachers and SNAs being trained to support children and help regulate them in order that they can stay in school. I agree that an approach to inclusive education does not involve suspending children. It is about embracing children and supporting them to be able to be included in school and to participate and take part. We are on a journey of cultural change around this and we are obviously not there yet.

Liam Quaide (Cork East, Social Democrats)
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The other issue that has been highlighted is what the parents term de facto suspensions, which is being asked repeatedly to pick their child up early from school because of behaviours that, again, are linked with the child’s disability or emotional dysregulation, and that being a source of chronic stress for those families. Is there any focused study being undertaken on this particular issue at the moment, as far as the authority is aware? Has the National Disability Authority considered the need to look at this specifically?

Dr. Aideen Hartney:

I thank the Deputy. We have reviewed data on reduced school days; we do not collect it ourselves. Again, the NCSE and the Department have a policy that that practice should not be used for punitive measures. It should only be used to foster inclusion. It is not something we have looked at specifically. The policy direction is that it should be used in a way that is fit for purpose. The NCSE would have more detailed knowledge on the extent to which that has been used.

If I have picked it up correctly, the NDA may be making a submission to the Government on assessments of need. Is it possible to be given an indication at this stage of its position on current efforts by the Government to address the crisis with the waiting lists for assessments of need? Yesterday in the budget, €20 million was announced for the waiting list initiative for assessments of need. While we would all welcome any further investment in this area, I have a big concern that it is further entrenching an approach towards private outsourcing of this service. There are several reasons for this. A lot of children could be seen relatively quickly without necessarily going through a full assessment of need. They could be seen for a therapeutic assessment in primary care. These are children with mild to moderate difficulties. If primary care services were properly resourced the children could be seen in a timely fashion and continue to work with the same clinicians. We know how important continuity of care is.

It is very well known among my former colleagues in disability services and mental health services that the increased outsourcing is creating what is known as a perverse incentive. Increasingly, clinicians employed by the HSE are incentivised to take up quite lucrative private work that is available through initiatives such as this. This, in turn, further hollows out the services. Many clinicians are leaving. It addresses one level of need, which is a legal requirement of the Government, but what happens after this? Does the NDA have a position on the privatisation of a service such as assessment of need?

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy's time is running out.

Liam Quaide (Cork East, Social Democrats)
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My concern is that it compromises the quality and continuity of care of HSE services.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

Our position is the same as what I have heard the HSE and the Department say themselves, which is they are not fans of outsourcing either. Ideally, assessments would be done within the health services. Given there is such a backlog, a one-time big investment to try to clear it would be a means to an end. It is not the ideal.

Liam Quaide (Cork East, Social Democrats)
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The problem is that recruitment restrictions are being applied to the very same services. We could have 453 years' worth of the annual starting salary of an occupational therapist for €20 million.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy's time is well over but if Dr. Tamming wants to come back in very briefly she may do so.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

We are doing the review of children's disability network teams at present and we are hearing a lot about assessments of need. Therapists themselves say they would like them done in their own services because they get to build a relationship with the family. They help with the journey of acceptance and they can also give therapies as they are going along. It is better for everybody to do this but it is about trying to balance the need at present.

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for coming before us this morning and they are welcome to the committee. I support Deputy Quaide on the question of suspensions. It is something I am concerned about and I raised it at the meeting last week. I will follow his questions on assessments of need. While I have serious concern about outsourcing and privatisation, I want to focus more on the actual assessment and the plan for dealing with the current situation. Part of the remit of the authority is to advise the Government on disability policy and related issues. Well over 16,000 children are awaiting assessment and we are told it will be something like 20,000 by the end of the year. Even with the announcement yesterday, it is quite clear we are going to be running to stand still at best.

Has the Government requested the authority to advise it on this issue and how it might be dealt with? If it has not asked this question, has the authority advised the Government and, if so, what has it told the Government? If it has not been asked or told, will the witnesses give us some indication of the authority's thinking on how this issue will be dealt with? Assessments of need are the basis for all education, including inclusive education. Generally we need to know what students need, and for students with additional needs we need to know specifically what their requirements are. Has the Government asked the authority to advise it on this area? If so, has the authority advised it and what has it told the Government? If the Government has not asked the authority, does the authority propose to do this as part of its remit? What are the thoughts of the witnesses on this?

Dr. Aideen Hartney:

I thank the Deputy. No, we have not been asked directly by the Government to advise on the assessment of need situation. The process is being led out by the Department of Children, Disability and Equality. We anticipate that we will engage with it, as we do with regard to all areas it has in its remit, when it establishes working groups or committees to look at this.

Our advice as Dr. Tamming has been saying, is that the backlog needs to be cleared. It is essential that an assessment of need process delivers against the purposes for which it was established. At present there is a disconnect between what is going on and what is required for access to educational supports versus health and social care supports. Our advice would be on resolving some of this. We are very conscious that this is a statutory entitlement for families and children. It is probably essential that the statutory obligation is delivered on and, hence, the additional money in the budget. Our advice would be in this direction when we develop it.

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I am surprised the Government has not asked the National Disability Authority about this. It is an independent statutory authority. I would have expected the Government to have asked it. Also, as an independent statutory authority, I would have expected the authority to take the initiative itself on advising the Government on this issue. This is not an issue that arose yesterday or the day before. I recall raising it back in 2017 and I was certainly not the first to do so. It was quite clear then that this was a serious issue and it was only going to get worse. It is unusual, is it not, that the Government did not ask the authority and the authority did not take the initiative to advise the Government on such an important issue in this area.

Dr. Aideen Hartney:

There are a couple of things there. It is for the Government to direct officials to work on matters on its own recognisance. We have looked at this area previously, for example, back in 2015. We did some research and advice on this and fed it into the system. As with any public body, we have defined resources to point at a defined number of work projects. It is challenging to balance developing work for where we know there is a customer, for want of a better word. Until recently, this has not been one of these areas. If we are asked to take it on at some stage - and the Department is looking at it now - we will of course do our best to reprioritise our current work programme to look at it. As I have said, since 2015 there has been a bit of a gap in attention to the area. We are aware work is being done in the Department on this area and it is important not to duplicate processes in an effort to look at it.

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I do not want to be difficult but I do not accept this. This is a fundamental issue in the area and I do not accept that resourcing in the authority tells us why this has not happened. It should have happened before now.

I will leave that matter there.

My final question relates to how the authority engages with families. Every day, most of us around this table meet family members who tell us they have to fight for everything, every hour of every day. It is a serious difficulty for parents and families. Does the NDA have a policy of engagement? How does it advise on engagement with students with additional needs and their families?

Dr. Aideen Hartney:

The NDA is an advisory body to the Government, rather than a body that delivers services to the public. Therefore, the way in which we engage with students, people with disabilities or families is through our research projects that are under way. We engage with them as research participants, gather information and feed it back through our reports. Dr. Tamming might say a little more about that.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

For example, in the review of the CDNTs, we had - I do not have the exact figures - approximately 4,000 responses from parents to our survey about their views on CDNTs. We then held a number of follow-on focus groups. We have gathered a huge amount of information from that.

We regularly engage with DPOs, which represent the views of their members, many of whom are parents who have particular issues.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe. Tá brón orm as a bheith mall ach bhí mé ag éisteacht leo. The meeting was informative before I landed so I thank the witnesses for that. The headings in their submission cover a lot anyway in the sense of the shooting match and the gambit. What we are talking about is that we want children to have appropriate places in schools and to ensure everyone has supports and a framework that works. There are the AONs, the backlog, the issue of CDNTs being divorced from schools, and the issue of parents who are looking for a means to deal with episodes that can happen with children with challenging needs and trying to find strategies, but the schools and everyone who works in the sector also need that. It is why everyone has bought into the idea of in-school therapy. I have no doubt that the research the NDA is doing with pilot schemes will not point out that this is a bad thing. My big fear is that the 45 schools for which recruitment of therapists is ongoing will be inundated with applications until this is rolled out with a proper methodology.

I will continue the theme of what was said about Portugal and integrated teams. What kind of resources are needed and how different does what it is doing look from the pilot schemes we are operating? How can we eventually get to the perfect place? As far as I am concerned the perfect place - I will stand corrected if someone can point to something better - is in-school therapies that provide everything and involve the parents, SNAs, teachers and principal so everyone engages and everyone gets the benefit. Best practice is then employed and even for those periods where, for example, the occupational therapist or speech and language therapist is not there, some kind of assistive technology is available to do back-up work and we have a system in place for transitions and whatever else. Then, in a perfect world, universal design would almost be built in to how it operates.

We are talking about what is the best practice we are seeing in operation here, what it is internationally and how we get there. What sort of resources are we talking about? How different does it look from the set-up we have at the moment?

Dr. Gerald Craddock:

As I said earlier, Dr. Miguel Valles was here last December and we had a closed session with him to talk about the education system in Portugal. The year 2018 was a landmark moment in Portugal when the vast majority of special schools and rehabilitation centres had to reintegrate not only the students but also the therapists and teachers into the local communities. A key initiative that came out of that was the setting up-----

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Would these teams Dr. Craddock is talking about have operated across multiple campuses?

Dr. Gerald Craddock:

Yes. As part of that, they have put a co-ordinator in place, a manager, to co-ordinate the 154 teams across Portugal in early childhood settings. A key part of that is that there is no assessment. All the children are given support in the classroom.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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A significant amount of resources were provided from the framework Portugal had previously, which it was able to bring into these teams. Numbers-wise, per capita, what are we looking at and how different is it? That is a specific question.

Dr. Gerald Craddock:

From speaking to Dr. Valles, I note very few additional resources were provided. The teams were in place in special schools and rehabilitation centres. They were dispersed back into the communities and clusters of 20 schools were set up where these teams were able to support the schools, but also-----

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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How many teams are there?

Dr. Gerald Craddock:

There are 154 teams across Portugal.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does Dr. Craddock know how many people are on a team?

Dr. Gerald Craddock:

I do not have that information, but we can definitely find it.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is probably worth looking for. I will take a wild guess that we are not talking about buckets and buckets.

Dr. Gerald Craddock:

No, and as I pointed out earlier, the number of students with disabilities has increased in mainstream schools and little extra support is required because they are transdisciplinary teams. I go back to the Deputy's point about when the occupational therapist is not present on a given day, but because they have worked closely with the speech and language therapist - I did this in my previous life when I ran transdisciplinary teams - the SLT is able to facilitate that person on some minor aspects of occupational therapy. That has helped with the resources not going through the roof to support those children in mainstream education.

In Finland, all the therapies are provided in the class. The pupils are not removed from the classroom.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We have to get to that point. The big fear I have heard from AsIAm and others is that in some cases - I am worried about the pilots in operation - the family will not be involved. We still think the CDNT does this job and it relates to being in school and to being only in school. That is the problem. It is the same as the silo issue between CAMHS and the CDNTs.

Dr. Gerald Craddock:

As Dr. Hartney pointed out, it is about building trust and a key part of the two examples of Portugal and Finland is that the communities and parents are directly involved in the whole process. If that trust is not built, it will not happen because there are issues in getting inclusion up and running. If people do not understand that, there are problems, but they can be overcome if we work together. The policies in Portugal and Finland are two examples.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is brilliant and it is something we have to do a serious amount of follow-through on. There is no conversation without dealing with that. When we compare the review of the pilot scheme with that, what are we at? Will the witnesses give their view insofar as possible?

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

There is a lot in that. The Deputy raised at the beginning driving admissions to special schools because they now have therapists. That is something we really want to avoid. There is a gap in parents' understanding of what therapists in schools provide. They are there to focus on the educational outcomes of the child, not the things that might be affecting them at home, such as feeding or toileting issues.

They might touch on those but there is absolutely a need for the CDNT role as well. It is about the joining-up.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Will it take the pressure off them?

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

Whether that will actually happen remains to be seen. Let us say there are two therapists in a school of 100 children in a special school. In one of the schools I visited, there were 12 different CDNTs associated with it. In order to have a seamless service, the therapists in the schools have to be liaising with the others. That is 12 different sets of therapists to liaise with. There are the universal, targeted and individual supports. The focus, particularly in the first couple of years, will be on the universal and the targeted supports; however, parents, when they hear therapists are going into schools, expect their children will receive one-to-one therapy. A complete change of mindset has to happen in this regard, both on the school side and on the CDNT side, because one to one is not how they operate. The evidence is not available-----

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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We must move on to Deputy Martin Daly, who has seven minutes.

Martin Daly (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I am happy to continue with Deputy Ó Murchú’s conversation because it is really important. I visited a special school in Castlerea the other day. It is a tremendous school with an extension and it looks after 85 children with special needs. The problem is the school catchment area. Reference was made to all the CDNT teams that have to be dealt with. The therapists in the school may be dealing with 12 teams. There are children in the school being bussed from south Sligo and east Mayo as far down as St. Hilda’s in Athlone. It depends on numbers and the school is in a situation in which it cannot meet the demand. It needs 16 additional places next year but does not have the physical space for them. We are hoping to address that. Local representatives, including a party colleague of Deputy Ó Murchú, are working on this with me.

It is a problem that we may have too few of these schools, too far apart from each other, meaning we have children travelling out of their areas. The cost of transport and the disruption to parents’ and families’ lives are an issue. I am not taking a position on it but am asking for Dr. Tamming’s thoughts on it.

At our last meeting, we had allied health professionals and social worker groups in. I was struck by the points on suspensions and expulsions from mainstream schools that have facilities for children with additional and special needs. Do the witnesses have thoughts on that? It just compounds the problem for the parents, who are already dealing with enormous burdens of care. Has any work or research been done on solutions to deal with this type of situation? While I realise it is difficult and complex, the witnesses might have some thoughts on it.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

On the first question, about special schools, I would argue that there are not too few schools. If we are going down an inclusive education route, we really need to start asking questions about building more special schools and opening more special classes. It has to be done very much on a phased basis. Deputy Ó Murchú asked how much would be needed and Dr. Craddock said there were very few resources in Portugal. However, I believe that, for a period, a parallel system will be needed. You will have to get schools that have a more inclusive ethos on board and demonstrate to parents that there are alternatives to a special class. That has to be worked out but there are good models elsewhere based on fluid movement in and out of the classroom. The base is that children are placed in a mainstream class and leave it when required, rather than being in a special class and leaving it for a mainstream one now and again. You gradually build it up. It will work very well for some children, whereas other children will have more difficulties. At the moment, the default for many children seems to be a special class or special school, and that really has to be challenged. The Deputy’s point on bussing children long distances is absolutely right. Why are they passing so many schools on the way?

Martin Daly (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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At a huge cost.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

It is exhausting for children. They may arrive dysregulated.

We talked about the suspensions issue previously.

Martin Daly (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

It is fine.

Martin Daly (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise as I was at the meeting of the health committee. However, I have read the opening statement.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

We said we have not done a lot in the area but realise something of a cultural change is needed in that the children in question need more support. If a child is suspended or told to go home early, or whatever is the case, that child then needs more support. There is a culture change needed here but also, perhaps, more supports, depending on the circumstances.

Martin Daly (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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It cannot simply be a matter of exclusion because that does not solve the problem.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

No.

Martin Daly (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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We can make the case that even children who do not have special needs need attention too. Suspension does not solve the problem. It just stores the problem further down the line and has lifelong consequences for the young people’s lives.

I thank Dr. Tamming for her answer. I appreciate it.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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That concludes round one of the discussion. Does anybody want to contribute a second time?

Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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The universal design for learning support model pilot runs until next year. Are there any interim findings that can be shared, or are they to be reserved until the pilot concludes in 2026? On student engagement at third level, how much interaction is there with the students or fledgling designers, shall we say? Do they go to schools, classes, special schools or CDNTs as part of their research for the apps or designs, or whatever the projects turn out to be? What sort of background research is there? Even the process in itself is an exercise in inclusivity.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

I do not think there are any results yet from the UDL pilot. If there are, we are not aware of them. The Department of education and the NCSE may have that information.

Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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I misunderstood. I believed it was an NDA matter.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

No. It is not one that we had.

Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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I beg your pardon. Sorry.

Dr. Gerald Craddock:

On fledgling students, one of the competitions we have run for the past last 11 years and which we completed last week is for final-year students in third level colleges. It is called the Universal Design Grand Challenge. Interestingly, over the past three years, quite a number of the students have had their own mental health difficulties, and their projects have been very much around how design, particularly the built environment, has a huge impact on their mental well-being. There have been several projects over the past 11 years. A key part of our requirements is engaging with the end user. Over the past 11 years, all the students have gone out to their local communities. A lot of them have very personal stories about their own families and themselves and how they have used design as a key enabler of their own well-being but also an enabler for the wider community. I could send on links to the latest competition, which is very interesting.

Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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Please.

Dr. Gerald Craddock:

Over the last three to four years, particularly since Covid, the number of projects that have been on mental health shows that, as we hear all the time, it is a huge issue for young people, particularly at third level.

Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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I would be very interested in that. Tomorrow evening, I am going to Kilkenny, where my godchild will be involved in an art and tertiary event, based on the personalised budget route. I can pass on the information that is relevant to families.

The Portuguese model was transformative. I believe Dr. Craddock said the NDA presented here on this before. If a link to the relevant information could be circulated among committee members, rather than having repetitive questioning, that would be fantastic.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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We can request it.

Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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Fantastic.

Dr. Gerald Craddock:

Dr. Miguel Valles presented at the education building conference last November in the RDS. We can forward the presentation.

Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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I beg your pardon. I misunderstood; I thought it was presented here at this committee.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the education therapy service, how can it be ensured there is equal access from a mainstream school and a special school? Will that be easily organised?

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

We are not that involved in that, but to my understanding there will not be equal access. We were asked to evaluate the enhanced in-school therapy project which was where CDNTs were allocated into schools. Now, the decision is that the new therapy service is going to use therapists employed directly by the Department of education, so they are not part of CDNTs. I think it is being called a pilot. I am not sure. It is starting in 45 special schools. The intention is that it will go into all special schools, then into special classes, and into the mainstream but that is an incremental development. I saw in the budget there was some provision made for this, but they are only getting up and running this year. They are recruiting. There is a lot of work going on between the Department of education, the Department of children and disability and the HSE, as to how this is going to work seamlessly between the different services. Even our evaluation, which was putting therapists back into special schools, was seen by some of the people we spoke to as being an inequitable approach because in the CDNTs everyone was prioritised based on need, but now you are prioritising based on where someone went to school. While children in special schools tend to have higher needs, they also tend to have those needs met through the existing services. Some of the managers of the CDNTs told us those were not the children they were losing sleep over, because there are other children, maybe in mainstream schools, who have stopped going to school and they do not have the resources for those children because the resources are gone to the special school. That pilot is still running. I do not know what the decision is, but I imagine it will be phased out as the new system comes in.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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There is a job of work to be done.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

Yes, there is a lot going on there.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for all the information they sent in. It was actually hard to think of questions, so well done.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

We will do a less detailed submission the next time.

Liam Quaide (Cork East, Social Democrats)
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I am going to mention a particular issue - I am not expecting the witnesses to be familiar with it - to illustrate the broader question. I have been working with a campaign group in Youghal in County Cork, Bridging the Gap, which was set up by parents of children with additional needs to address the very serious shortfall in secondary level additional needs placements in Youghal and the broader catchment area. For this group of families, their children's educational needs are, for the most part, well served at primary level at the moment. However, in the longer term they are facing the prospect of very long commutes to places as far away as Waterford city or Cork city. Obviously, the idea that their children will be dislocated from their communities for their secondary level education and will endure daily, gruelling commutes that will add a huge amount of stress to their lives is a source of huge concern for them. There is an autism hub in the sole secondary school in Youghal, which is a very large school of more than 1,200 students. My understanding is that the staff-to-student ratios are similar there to what the children have at primary level at the moment. It is the school setting itself that is the main challenge for integration. For autistic children, a school of that size, with very busy corridors and a lot of movement from one class to the next can be sensorially overwhelming, as we all know, or it can bring on emotional dysregulation. So, even if there were enough school placements in the secondary school for the geographical area, these environmental factors appear insurmountable in the absence of a further extension to the school. There is an extension planned, but it is not going to accommodate the number of children that will need placement in Youghal. Does the NDA advise the Government on how to strike a balance in cases like this, whereby integration of children with additional needs is maximised, while the sensory and emotional needs of the students are also fully acknowledged and accommodated in school buildings?

Dr. Aideen Hartney:

That brings us back to the overall direction of travel towards inclusive education and the importance of the universal design of the environment as an enabler for that, so that if school buildings are being brought on stream, they have all of those considerations as part of the design and planning phase. Some of our concern about special classes and special schools is that students often go in and remain segregated and do not go back to the mainstream, even where that special class might be on the same campus or the school might be on a joint campus. We envisage a school building where people can withdraw and reintegrate over the course of the day and keep that mainstream provision. Even where an autistic student might find the environment overwhelming, at a point in time, the ability to withdraw means that is not a persistent problem, requiring a segregated provision. That is important. We have presented universal design guidelines for school buildings to the Department of education in the past. It is about ensuring that planning and design conversations happen at the earliest stage to enable that.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

The Department and the NCSE are doing a lot of work around preplanning. If they know that a certain number of children have gone through primary school, they can anticipate how many secondary school places might be needed. That is notwithstanding that there might be opportunities to move people out of special classes. Improved planning is needed, but there is work ongoing on that.

Liam Quaide (Cork East, Social Democrats)
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Does the NDA advise the Government or critically analyse the Government in respect of additional needs education provision? What is its analysis of the current level of provision nationally of appropriate school placements for children with additional needs? I am particularly interested in the location of those placements and whether they are in the child's community. How far are we, as a country, from vindicating the rights of children with additional needs to be educated in accessible, appropriate, settings in the community where they live? Have the witnesses done any systematic analysis of additional needs education provision in this country? What level of investment would be required to get to a point where the UNCRPD is upheld?

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

No, we have not. We sort of see a lot of that in the realm of NCSE, which does a lot of that work and has come up with its inclusive education policy. We would not have done that level of analysis. The UNCRPD states that children have the right to be educated in the mainstream setting in their local community. We are far from that, and we are going in the wrong direction. We need a course reset. In the new national human rights strategy for disabled people, it says there will be a roadmap towards inclusive education. It is really important that this is developed and that there is cross-government support for it. I envisage something like Sláintecare, whereby everyone gets behind this model. It will take ten or 20 years to deliver, but there has to be a big push behind it that keeps going.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you, Dr. Tamming.

Liam Quaide (Cork East, Social Democrats)
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If the action plans for that strategy are not implemented, does the NDA have any role in holding the Government to account?

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy is well over his time, in fairness. The witness may respond very briefly.

Dr. Aideen Hartney:

We will have a role in the monitoring and oversight of the delivery of the strategy overall. It is likely that if there were gaps in delivery, we would be highlighting them.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Dr. Tamming said we are moving in the wrong direction. In what way?

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

We are opening more special schools and more special classes. It is meeting a need at the moment. Children are getting an appropriate school place, but the question is this: who is saying it is appropriate?

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is it also the way we do things? We just silo it and there is no flexibility. There should be a lot more flexibility in how a kid enters into a special class and then back into regular mainstream.

I would have major worries until in-school therapies are rolled out. People will see the therapies and go at them.

Universal in-school therapies would probably work for a lot of children and were best practice to be operated by schools and were parents to be made aware of this, everyone would be in a better place. Did the Finnish and Portuguese models introduce something in respect of the behavioural piece? That can be a major issue for parents. It will be a failing if that is not a consideration, even if they are universal strategies. Whether I am speaking about my Turlough or another kid, there is an element of consistency in regard to the frustration that relates to language and other things. It is about seeing things early and de-escalation. When people learn how to do that, it is an improvement for everybody.

Dr. Gerald Craddock:

I thank the Deputy. Finland recognised that, in short, this is messy. It is about getting commitment not only from the school but also the community and parents. If there is not an acknowledgement that this is a journey for the school, the community and parents in terms of how we integrate our children into mainstream education-----

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, my son is in mainstream education. The school said it was a learning process for it. He is in secondary school and is getting his junior certificate results. I have to remember to log in and get them. My wife is away at the minute.

Dr. Gerald Craddock:

Reference has been made to what was demonstrated in Portugal. We have heard that model mentioned many times. The Minister of Education from New Brunswick visited Ireland a number of years ago to speak about its system, and how it shut all of its special schools and integrated all of the children into mainstream education.

In terms of language, Canada and Finland have removed the word "special needs" and "special education" from all legislation. As we all know, language is very important. Instead, they refer to learning supports in education. That is the journey we need to take, as my colleague, Dr. Tamming, said, we are going in the wrong direction.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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A significant number of children will have more challenging needs and will need more acute services. The hope is that if we can employ the best system possible we will deal with the largest cohort and improve their lives, along with the lives of their parents and schools. There is an element of training needed in terms of how we deal with these sets of circumstances, because they can vary teacher by teacher.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

The current system does not really incentivise mainstream classes to up their game in terms of inclusivity because the more children there are in special schools and special classes-----

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That does not mean we have necessarily trained everybody in that set-up regarding what they need.

Dr. Rosalyn Tamming:

No, there is a lot of evidence that sometimes younger and more inexperienced teachers are put there because nobody else wants to do that work. We need to create incentives for teachers to want to work in those settings. The point the Deputy raised about flexibility is important. There are some disincentives in the system for principals to be creative. If they are seen to use an SNA in a particular area, schools then do not have a special class and that resource is taken away. There has to be much more flexibility in order that principals are allowed to be creative and use resources as they need them. Some do that really well, but they do not say it too loudly in case anybody gets in trouble.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am happy that everything is being assessed and, as I said, systems are being improved. Assistive technology is a major backup. I imagine it is used in some of the examples to which the witnesses referred.

Dr. Gerald Craddock:

Absolutely. As Deputy Toole mentioned, research, including my research, shows that the earlier the technology is in place for kids the more it becomes an extension of their arm, for example. In my research, and in research internationally, I found that the later the assistive technology is introduced, the bigger the burden it becomes. It is often set to one side as it is as it is too difficult to learn how to use the technology. We all have in our pockets what is probably the biggest piece of assistive technology, namely, smart phones. They have so much technology built into them.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Chair does not always show a huge level of flexibility.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Not to you, if you stretch it every day.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I assure the Chair I am much stricter with him in my committee. I will carry on the conversation that we have been having over the past few minutes.

It strikes me that this is very much a chicken and egg situation, where we seem to be going backwards. There are huge waiting lists for assessments of need and places in special schools, and demand to open more classes. That stems from a lack of support or inclusive integrated education not working. Dr. Hartney mentioned the importance of the right roadmap, which starts as young as 13 years of age when parents need to find that step to transition. As a Deputy, people come to my office and tell me their 17-year-old is finishing school next year and ask me for the roadmap. There is an information gap.

There is a lot of stress on parents who have a child in a mainstream school and might have to pick them up earlier. The topic of suspensions was discussed earlier. I understand Senator Byrne raised the issue of some schools shying away from, or trying to shy away from, bringing in students with disabilities. It is unspoken that many parents in Ireland try to bring their child to a Gaelscoil because there may be fewer people with disabilities and less diversity. That is not a dislike of people with disabilities or diversity. Rather, it is a fear of supports. We see that on the ground with teachers.

As has been said, new teachers are sent to special classes. We have a long way to go. I would like to hear more about the Portuguese model. We will receive the presentation the witnesses gave at a conference, but I ask them to speak to teacher training in the Portuguese model. If Portugal does not use the words "special needs" or "special education", is the model of training different at the St. Patrick's and Mary Immaculate level in Portugal?

Dr. Gerald Craddock:

The Finish model is a good example where there is extensive training for teachers on upskilling. Part of their role is being a support co-ordinator for the implementation of an individual education plan which, interestingly, all students in Finland have, not just those with special needs. They do not use the term "special needs" but rather "learning supports". Teachers in Finland see that every child, not just a few, requires learning support. Finland has different levels, namely general, intensive and specific. They are the levels of support they provide to students in their class. As I mentioned, therapy happens within the class. Children are not removed from the class.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is a total shift in mindset. We have only a specific cohort of children getting individual education plans. I often found when I visited schools and wanted to help parents work on an individual education plan over the summer, I realised the plan was a document that sat on a shelf but what happened on the ground was very different. To get to that model would be phenomenal, especially when we know that some children might have dyslexia while others have ADHD or are autistic but there are a lot of children in between who will never get a referral to NEPS because the hours are so short. If everybody had a model of what they need in the classroom-----

Dr. Aideen Hartney:

The Deputy is correct. It comes back to the universal design approach to provision so that we are meeting the needs of everybody, regardless of the level of need. The Deputy alluded to what we might call an Irish culture, whereby education is highly prized and, therefore, parents fight hard for it for all of their children. That may where some of the school reluctance might come from.

They know they are finely balancing resources with the cohort of the community that they are serving. That is where we were suggesting that, on this road towards more inclusive education, we will need to demonstrate proof of concept. That might involve picking a few schools where, as Dr. Tamming has said, there is already an inclusive attitude coming from the top down through the school body to pilot this inclusive approach to show how it works for all students in the locality. That will then show a direction of travel and build momentum in terms of assigning resources. There was the comprehensive employment strategy in Ireland, which did a fair bit of work on demonstrating what was necessary for that good transition planning for young learners with disabilities. That is where the research saying that planning for what a person wants to do after school should start at the age of 13 came from. It is also about access to career guidance, which has only recently been introduced to special schools, and access to things like transition year and the work placements and other social integration activities that form part of that. That is something that has not been universal for learners with additional needs to date. It is only starting to be rolled out now. We encourage more of that as the new national human rights strategy is rolled out.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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That concludes our discussion today. I propose that we publish the opening statements to the committee website. Is that agreed? Agreed. I thank the witnesses for attending today's meeting and the members for their insightful contributions on the issue of inclusive education. With the agreement of the members, we will now go into private session to deal with housekeeping matters. Is that agreed? Agreed.