Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Ba mhaith liom fáilte is fiche a chur roimh na finnéithe agus mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leo as bheith in ár dteannta inniu don chruinniú tábhachtach seo. Before we begin I must go through some housekeeping matters, as I do at the start of every public meeting. I am sure committee members are absolutely sick of hearing this from me.

Those witnesses who are giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence that they give to this committee. This means that they have a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed by the Chair to cease giving evidence on any issue. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts, like those joining us on MS Teams for example, should note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts. They may consider it appropriate to take their own legal advice in this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside of the proceedings of this committee of any matters that have been raised in the proceedings.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the parliamentary precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. If members are joining us via MS Teams I will ask them to verbally confirm that they are on the grounds of Leinster House prior to making their contribution. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

The agenda for today's meeting is a discussion on island fisheries issues and the situation for our island fisheries sector. The committee will hear from the following witnesses from the Irish Islands Marine Resource Organisation, IIMRO: Mr. Enda Conneely, leas-chathaoirleach and Mr. Séamus Bonner, secretary who are with us in the meeting room. We are also joined online by Mr. Jerry Early, chairperson. Our witnesses are joined by their IIMRO colleagues Ms Muireann Kavanagh, Mr. Neily Kavanagh and Mr. Martin McBride, who are also very welcome to the meeting.

The opening statement has been forwarded to members. I invite our witnesses to give a brief synopsis of that statement on the understanding that it has already been read by members. Then we will proceed to questions and answers from members in ten-minute slots. Members will indicate to me when they want to contribute. I will take them in the order in which they indicate and they will have ten minutes each to put questions but also to get responses from the witnesses. There are clocks above the cameras so everyone can see the clock ticking down. I remind members to leave sufficient space within their slot for answers from the witnesses. I now invite Mr. Conneely to provide a two-minute synopsis of the opening statement.

Mr. Enda Conneely:

I am the vice chair of IIMRO. I thank the committee for allowing us to give evidence here today. IIMRO is an offshore islands-based organisation covering the Donegal, Mayo, Galway and Cork islands that was founded in 2014 after the launch of a report in that year. IIMRO became a fisheries producer organisation in 2021 and is a member of the Low Impact Fishers of Europe, LIFE.

Its mission is to sustain small scale low-impact fisheries and island communities. There are 2,900 islanders on 22 islands. Island vessels make up 6% of the national register but the population is less than 0.06%. Fishing is important to islands in particular. We are dependent on fisheries and the CFP has recognised this for a number of years. It is an economic lifeline as well as a cultural matter. We have been here for years. The main challenge is that funding is missing from the European Maritime, Fisheries and Aquaculture Fund, EMFAF, for the producer organisation, PO, delivery. The management policy that one size fits all is not working. Stock closures, such as for salmon, cod in area 6a, sea bass and pollock, always have a disproportionate impact on small-scale people. With regard to access and equality, track record rules do not really help and there is a risk of quota concentration. Even though we think it is a public resource in Ireland, there is a risk it could aggregate and somebody from outside the country would take it.

We are looking for solutions and implementation of the 2014 Oireachtas report recommendations, and we have picked out four recommendations in particular. The heritage licence Bill was stalled a number of years go by the Government of the time but most parties were in favour of it. We would like to see it revisited. We want social welfare reform because once boats are tied up people are stuck for days. This can happen for three weeks just like that. It does not happen normally and it would be good to get in and out of it. Producer organisation funding should be released in line with policy and there should also be investment in island harbour infrastructure.

We have a small population with high dependence on fisheries. We are part of the culture, heritage and marine stewardship. We need action. On the previous occasion I was before a committee we said we needed to look forward to see what we can do. Now we have a fisheries committee and a Minister of State. We are ready for action and we would love to come back.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Mr. Conneely and Mr. Bonner, and Mr. Early who is listening to us online from Arranmore island. I also welcome Mr. Neily Kavanagh, Mr. McBride and Ms Muireann Kavanagh. This is probably a small committee room compared to the committee room where Muireann addressed the European Parliament fisheries committee last year.

It is important that we hear from the witnesses. We have their statement and Mr. Conneely has referred to its main points. The islands have 6% of the boats compared to 0.06% of the population. The only fish they can fish are the non-quota species. I would like to think they would have an opportunity to fish the quota species because the amount they would require is very little.

Recently I tabled a question to the Minister on pollock and the research and scientific advice. The status of the stock is now an element to be considered as part of the TAC settings for 2026. I hope that good sense will prevail and the Commission and the Council of Ministers will accept that the amount of pollock would be so little that, while it would be important to those who fish it, it would not have any great implications for the stock.

With regard to access, historical track record does not stand up when it comes to quota species.

This is something we should look at also. I would like to get the witnesses' views on the pollock stocks that are there.

Unfortunately, a decision was taken to terminate drift net salmon fishing. At the time, I laid a lot of the blame on Iceland. Iceland said it would make a major contribution financially towards the losses but we have never heard from it. The major contribution was not even a single euro. I would like to hear the views of the witnesses on this because there is no one better than them to establish what stocks of salmon are there at present. Should we think of reverting to this, even with small TACs and quotas of salmon? I do not know what the scientific advice is, and I may table a question to establish it from Inland Fisheries Ireland. It is important to have the view of the witnesses and I will leave some time for them to answer the questions.

Mr. Enda Conneely:

I will ask Mr. Bonner to deal with the pollock issue. The salmon issue had a huge impact on island fishing, especially in Donegal. I fished salmon years ago but, then, the management of the fishery at the time was not great. Monofilament net was illegal to fish with but it was legal to have it everywhere else. If we are going to have a law, we should have ways to fish. There were 19 of us in a small operation at the time, and salmon would take us away from lobster fishing for those six weeks. The seals would get just as much fish as was being taken by the smaller boats.

With regard to salmon and Iceland's contribution, we should have thought of this when Iceland was looking for access to European waters. Last year, we were the only producer organisation that strenuously objected to it because we have enough fishing effort in there without bringing in third countries that have not even joined the EU. We need to look at salmon because according to the latest information we have, it has not improved the stock . We can check it out to see whether there are any ways of doing it. Some of the people took compensation and some did not, on the understanding they could go back to fishing when it became viable again. Nothing seems to have happened on this and we would like to have a look at it.

Mr. Séamus Bonner:

I am from Arranmore and I thank the committee for the opportunity to contribute to the discussion today. I will add to what Mr. Conneely said on salmon. It will be 20 years next year since the drift net fishery was closed and the stocks do not seem to have improved. It is obvious that the underlying issues have not been addressed. Water quality, barriers in rivers, salmon farms in river estuaries and pelagic bycatch are problems that have not been addressed.

To give background on pollock, it is a couple of years since the hand line fishery was closed. Our member, Muireann Kavanagh, has been highlighting it since then. She fishes with her uncle from Arranmore island using a hand line with six hooks. This fishery has been closed as a result of ICES zero TAC advice. This means we cannot have a directed fishery for a fish stock, in this case pollock. It is a very low-impact fishery. It is probably the most low- impact fishery we can have. It has not changed in hundreds of years. Meanwhile, industrial bycatch fishing continues and Muireann has been highlighting this in Strasbourg, Brussels and elsewhere. It is good to be able to talk about it today.

There was a big issue with the science that informed that decision. The surveys were not for pollock habitats and they did not take into consideration seasonal differences.

Our experience on the islands is that there are plenty of pollock around but the management area is huge, stretching from the west of Scotland down to the coast of France, and it not does not take into consideration the regional differences in the stocks. We need a system where low-impact fisheries are prioritised so if there are going to be restrictions, it does not apply to the small boat and the small person first. The committee could help with changing policy in that regard.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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When we consider that people are going out and catching them by line, the impact that has on the stocks is 0.00001%. That is something we should take a particular interest in and we can make a case to the Minister and to the Commission to allow for that. It has no impact at all on those stocks. There is no more environmentally-friendly fishing.

In the past few years, the drop in crab fishing has been frightening. I know some people were prepared to make an investment in it a few years ago but, all of a sudden, the quantities have reduced. Is that how IIMRO finds it on the west coast? Do we know the reason that might be happening?

Mr. Enda Conneely:

Making a case to allow for low-impact fishing would be good. With regard to crab fishing, it is difficult to know. We were involved in the crab focus group last year. There is a lot of pressure coming on the stock because there was decommissioning of some of the whitefish fleet. There are a lot more pots going out now. They put out more pots because the catch-per-unit effort means they need more pots to catch the same. The market for that is also different. There are a few issues that we can take on board later.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Unfortunately, I have an unavoidable clash, so I will take my leave of the meeting in a few moments. The Leas-Chathaoirleach, Deputy Gallagher, will take the Chair for the remainder of the meeting. I apologise for that.

Before I go, I want to make a few comments. Last week we had the National Inshore Fishermans Association, NIFA, before the committee. As I said before, I am keen that this committee would give voice to the inshore sector and islands sector in particular. We see that the vast bulk of those engaged in sea fisheries, those who are dependent on sea fisheries for their livelihood in coastal communities, be they on the mainland or on our offshore islands, are experiencing many of the same issues. It is something that Deputy Mac Lochlainn and I have been engaged on with IIMRO, NIFA and many others around the coastline.

The role of this committee will not only be to give voice to organisations involved in sea fisheries across all types, but also to propose solutions to the Government. The witnesses mentioned in their opening statement that there is now a Minister in position. Our job is not the job of the Minister; it is to hold the Minister and the Department to account. It is to hold the Government as a whole to account to ensure it is doing right, not just by the fishing sector or the maritime environment, but by the coastal communities that depend on both.

I wanted to make that comment. I thank the witnesses for being here. I will hand over the reins to Deputy Gallagher. Deputy Whitmore has the floor.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses. From the discussions we have had to date, it is safe to say there is a real need or want within the committee to prioritise low-impact fishers. We recognise that they are continually being squeezed into a harder and harder situation in regard to their ability to not only make money from their craft, but to undertake that craft.

I am looking at some of the information provided to the committee prior to the meeting. An important point was made. We are in a situation where Ireland has committed to the marine protected areas legislation. I believe that fundamental to this being successful is the incorporation of low-impact fisheries in the legislation and ensuring there is prioritisation of people who fish sustainably within that. Unfortunately, the Government seems to have stalled, and it is now not sure how it is going to move forward with that legislation. Is that a concern for the witnesses? I would imagine that IIMRO has had discussions about the potential of this Bill coming in. Do the witnesses see this Bill as presenting the possibility of a different future for low-impact fishers and island communities? There is information in the documentation about Dr. Ruth Brennan. Apparently, Scotland has used its marine protected areas legislation to prioritise fishers in order to ensure there is a healthy future for them. There is a real opportunity there.

The witnesses mentioned the social welfare changes. Can they specifically spell out what that would mean so we have that information?

Mr. Enda Conneely:

I will hand the issue of the social welfare changes to Mr. Bonner. The MPA legislation depends on what is in the legislation. We have been looking at co-management models. The people who know most about the environment are those of us who are in it all the time. We had systems in place before the CFP. We fished seasonally in certain areas at certain times. Some people could move into one area and move out of it again. There was a kind of local issue like that. We have centralised everything and we now have to try to go back. Ireland's west coast is very diverse. You would nearly want to examine it bay by bay because things are so different there.

It depends on how the MPA legislation comes out. One of the biggest issues we have with it is the notion that there would be no-take zones within the MPA. The jury is out on that. In some areas, it kind of works as it tends to displace people. However, over time, in some of the areas we have looked at, it tends not to really deliver. There are possibilities for certain small sections, but it would need a lot of local involvement. In the main, we would be keen to work with that. We are already doing a lot of work on data gathering and all of the stuff that we can do ourselves. That is where we are coming from. We will have to see what the legislation is like when it comes out. We will deal with it then. The main thing is that we do not like the idea of no-take zones because that will not work.

Mr. Séamus Bonner:

The Deputy mentioned Dr. Ruth Brennan. We did some work with Trinity College Dublin in 2018 as part of a Horizon project where we looked at local governance measures. The findings were published. It was a project called CO-SUSTAIN. We can send the details on its findings to the committee.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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That would be great.

Mr. Séamus Bonner:

As Mr. Conneely mentioned, no-take zones could potentially be a big problem, depending on how they are implemented, because small boats cannot move outside their own areas. If there is a no-take zone in their area, it means they cannot fish and we do not want that. A lot of people are leaving fishing at the moment, whether they are retiring or otherwise, and there are not enough people coming to take their place. That is an ongoing issue and one we have identified to the Minister and others. It needs to be addressed urgently.

Otherwise, in five or ten years' time we are not going to have any small fishing on the west coast.

We are looking for reform of social welfare. It is one of the recommendations in the 2014 report. That cross-party report was agreed a long time ago and has not been implemented. As a result, when somebody has to tie up their boat because they are sick, the weather is bad or something has happened to their boat, they cannot access social welfare supports. There is no safety net there for fishermen because they are classed as self-employed. Share fishermen are self-employed now. Some of the bigger boats have employees but the majority of the Irish fishing fleet are share fishermen who do not have these supports. This means that if anything goes wrong, the fisher is in dire straits and cannot access any supports whatsoever. The other issue identified is that a lot of unpaid work is being done within fishing families, particularly by women supporting their families. Their work is not recognised and, again, if something goes wrong, they are not able to access the support they need.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Another issue, one which probably plays into the marine protected areas, is the fact that the Government has never made used of Article 17 to recognise that it can allocate quotas on a prioritised basis from a cultural and heritage perspective. Should the Government do that? Given that we are very controlled by Europe in how we manage our fisheries, it seems to be a missed opportunity that here is an article that specifically allows the Irish Government to do something beneficial for low impact fishers. I ask the witnesses to comment on that.

Mr. Enda Conneely:

This goes back to the Island Fisheries (Heritage Licence) Bill 2017. What we were trying to do was allocate a small bit of the national quota in that. It is within the member state's gift to do that. We cleared this with the Commission back when that was done, and it agreed it was fully compliant with the Common Fisheries Policy rules. It went nowhere then. It is a member state issue and the Minister can allocate quota. This goes back to the point we were trying to make earlier about the track record, which is not environmentally sustainable either because it rewards the people who catch the most fish, rather than those who catch the best quality fish with the least damage. It is a perverse way of doing it as it makes people create track record. That was done in the past and I think it is going to change because it has led to where we are at the moment.

Going back to Article 17, there are lots of levers the member states can pull that they have not pulled. I am not 100% sure of this - Mr. Bonner might know - but I believe the reason the heritage licence Bill was not allowed through was essentially that it was against the Common Fisheries Policy. The Commission said the Bill was fine and Ireland said it was not and threw it away. Ten years later, we would have gone ahead with a lot of the data gathering and built up the resources we had. You could have new people coming on board. Everybody starts on a small boat. Even if somebody goes out in a kayak, they start fishing. Some people like it and some people do not and those that do will go into it as a career. These days especially, with the way we are with food security and short supply chains, fishing ticks all the boxes we need to tick. That is an area that could be revisited.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We are obliged to end the meeting at 12.40 p.m. in view of the Budget Statement.

In summary, we will ask the committee at a later stage to have another look at the 2014 report and Article 17, which has been referred to.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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There are a couple of areas I want to deal with. The first is the issue of producer organisation funding. There appears to be two-tier funding of producer organisations here. The newly formed producer organisations, which include the IIMRO and the National Inshore Fishermens Association, NIFA, have been excluded from funding. Will the witnesses speak to that and what needs to be done?

Mr. Séamus Bonner:

I thank the Deputy. Just as background for the committee, a producer organisation is an organisation officially recognised by the EU. The responsibility is to deliver the objectives of the Common Fisheries Policy. In 2018, we started the process of recognition arising from one of the recommendations in the Oireachtas report. We were refused on the first attempt but we achieved recognition in 2021. As part of the process of recognition, we had to do a lot of work. There was a huge amount of work in organising members, collecting information and working through the application process, which we did. The issue with the funding relates to pre-financing in particular. The longer established producer organisations got funding to help them start off. We have been told since 2021, when we were recognised, that pre-financing is not available, even though the facility was there in the European Maritime and Fisheries Fund, EMFF, when we applied for recognition. We have been told that the Department of public expenditure is not allowing the pre-financing aspect of it. This means we have to cash-flow a large amount of money. The way it works is we have to spend the money and claim it back 18 months later. For a small organisation based on the offshore islands, that is not practical. Deputy Mac Lochlainn mentioned the other newly recognised producer organisation. It is in the same boat, as it were.

Part of the application process is putting together a production and marketing plan for activities to help members get better prices for their catches, marketing, collecting information and different things like that. That plan has been approved but the fact that we cannot get the pre-financing has really slowed us down. We are completely reliant on our members' fees and voluntary effort by the committee and membership. We cannot get supports for overheads or meeting attendance. This puts our members at a big disadvantage because there have been hundreds of meetings since we were recognised, which we believe we should have been at because decisions are being made at them that affect fisheries on the ground.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I suggest we invite IIMRO to send us a note on this issue. I ask that the committee write to the Minister for public expenditure asking for an explanation as to why this has not been resolved. It seems to be counterproductive, after the very welcome decision to establish two producer organisations, the IIMRO and NIFA, to then tie their hands behind their back. It does not make sense. I ask that, on the back of getting a note on this issue, the committee would consider that.

The next issue is share fishermen. IIMRO has asked for social welfare reform around the issue of share fishermen. Will it outline the issue to the committee as well as what the remedy is?

Mr. Enda Conneely:

Mr. Early is online. I do not know if he has any comment to make on the financing issue.

Mr. Jerry Early:

I thank the committee for facilitating this. The only thing I would like to say about producer organisation, PO, funding is that we have been doing this since 2021. We have attended all kinds of meetings, including quota management advisory committee, QMAC, meetings. We are there off our own bat. We are self-funded. The money we get from members does not cover a portion of the travel involved. All the people in the room today are there because they are getting paid. We are there in a voluntary capacity and that is no longer acceptable. I urge the committee, as Deputy Mac Lochlainn said, to get answers from the Minister for Finance or whoever is responsible for that.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Can I get a response on the reforms needed on the issue of share fishermen?

Mr. Jerry Early:

I will let Mr. Bonner or Mr. Conneely deal with that. I am in the middle of a city at the moment, for which I apologise.

Mr. Séamus Bonner:

As was mentioned, share fishermen are classified as self-employed so, as far as the Department of Social Protection is concerned, they are a business. If share fishermen go out fishing for a few days and do not catch any fish, they do not get paid. It is an uncertain way of having an income. If they go to a bank to get finance for a new outboard engine or something else for their boats, it can be very hard to get access to finance because they do not have a steady income or a salary coming in every month. If they are sick, for example, and go for social welfare, they cannot sign on for jobseeker's allowance or its equivalent for fishermen. There is a P class PRSI stamp they can pay into but because of their uncertain income, many fishermen do not find that to be a viable option. It was thrashed out at length in the 2014 Oireachtas report and one of the agreed recommendations was that the reform should happen. The report is a template for action on many of the issues. We have always said that if these recommendations had been implemented in 2014, things would be a lot better now. We really should revisit the report and try to get the recommendations put into effect.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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My final question is on the Island Fisheries (Heritage Licence) Bill, which has long been delayed. We have been led to understand that the Attorney General has a view that it contradicts common fisheries rules. That is contested. Will the witnesses speak about why the Bill is important and why they believe it is legal?

Mr. Enda Conneely:

The Attorney General will answer the question he is asked. Maybe the question that was asked was not the one that should have been asked. The Commission has assured us that the Bill is a the member state issue. I remember a lot of talk at the time that it was not possible to increase the fishing effort, but this did not involve that. It used boats that were on the register with polyvalent licences. It would not increase the fishing effort. It is about reallocating a small amount of the quota to reintroduce seasonality

If we could get it going on the islands, it could possibly be run as a pilot to see how a fishery might be built up again. It was a big mistake to allow that to die the way it did. We are now in a bad situation with the larger operators, but if only we had done that then. These things do not happen overnight. They happen over a long period and people tend to react when there is an emergency. It is still not too late to get going on this. It ties into Article 17 and into what we are doing with cultural heritage. Any fishing on islands brings tourism. All that kind of stuff has come into this as well. It would have a huge impact and I imagine we could do it rather swiftly with the help of the committee and the Minister.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps we should ask the Department of Social Protection to look at the 2014 report with reference to the contributions.

The next speaker who indicated to the Chair before I came in is Deputy John Connolly.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise that I had to leave briefly. However, I heard Deputies Mac Lochlainn and Whitmore ask about the social welfare issue before that and I heard the response. I found it interesting to learn when I recently asked the Minister about the number of self-employed fishermen who are on the fish assist payment that the number is particularly low. Is there a reason for that? Across the country, only 43 fishermen are on the fish assist payment, nine of whom are in County Galway. That seems remarkably low. I would have expected there to be more. I am aware that in recent times there have been a number of investigations into people in receipt of the payment by the social welfare services. Is that one of the contributing factors for why so few seek to take up the payment?

A common theme of the guidance note we received relates to the ring-fenced quotas that are rarely if ever fully taken up. It is described in the guidance note as a consistent pattern. Do the witnesses know why those quotas are not being taken up?

Mr. Enda Conneely:

I do not know whether Mr. Bonner wants to come in on any of these questions. He can in a while.

My understanding of the fish assist payment is that very few people avail of it. It is at a low level of where people are operating. I am not 100% sure where the limits are for it.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Conneely referred to 1964. Does that relate to the fish assist payment? In his opening statement, he said that social welfare guidelines are as per 1964.

Mr. Enda Conneely:

I do not think they would be. I would have to check that and get back to the Deputy, unless Mr. Bonner remembers.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Early is online. He should feel free to interject any time he wishes.

The Deputy is referring to the statement that the current regulation that sets out access to social welfare is from 1964.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is that in the guidance note?

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise. Mr. Conneely is saying the income parameters for the fish assist payment are too low.

Mr. Enda Conneely:

The income parameters are tied in with a CE scheme where people do X number of hours of community work and they then get a small payment. The farm assist payment is probably more useful because of the way smaller farms operate. However, with the way fishing operates on a seasonal basis, it may or may not be suitable for most people. Essentially, it will keep people at a level and they cannot get out of it if they go into it. One of the possible reasons the number is low is that the scheme is not designed properly. It needs to be revisited to see why.

Deputy Connolly mentioned ring-fenced quotas. I am not sure whether he was referring to the hook and line mackerel quota.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I think that is one of the ones mentioned in the guidance note.

Mr. Enda Conneely:

Yes, they mention that occasionally. It needs to be looked at a bit more because there was one year where they overshot a lot. The way that works in other jurisdictions is that the quota would be allocated for a certain period. It is a seasonal fishery. For most of the small boats, it will be over by September really. Any leftover stuff just goes into the bigger boat quota that can fish it during the winter. It is something I have heard come up a few times, but it is not to do with the way we were talking about the quotas. We need to have access to different species in the areas in order that we can be allowed to go working. Pollock was a particular problem. That is going to be a problem next year. The cod in area 6a closed everything down. It goes back to the same thing about a centralised, large management model that they are using. Mr. Early might want to come in on that.

Mr. Jerry Early:

On the hook and line, the total catch at the moment is 400 tonnes. Initially, as Mr. Conneely alluded to, there was an overshoot. That seems to have settled down quite well, but the one thing I would like to stress is that, in lieu of the recent announcement and the cuts that are coming, unfortunately it is devastating news for the pelagic sector, but that percentage of 400 tonnes remains and it gets cut as well. It is something to bear in mind.

Something else was alluded to in an earlier comment in relation to salmon. As far back as 17 or 18 years ago, shortly after the ban came in, we suggested at the time that we accept the science that is coming in from all quarters but the one science that was not used was that of the fishermen. It is vitally important that we look at a way of a small science quota to be made available because we can ascertain what is not going up the rivers. This scientific evidence is not coming from the sea. It is something that we could look at. It is certainly something that the idle fishers who did not accept the compensation could certainly partake in. It is important to gather all science. Unfortunately, in many cases, the one aspect of science that is very often or always overlooked is that of the fishermen. The fisherman's input is crucial to maybe ascertaining where the stocks are exactly. That is something to bear in mind.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The last question does not relate to the content of the statement. Are there any island processing facilities?

Mr. Enda Conneely:

Small-scale processing is going on, but that leads us onto the next issue that we have, which is the infrastructure on the island's piers and harbours. We do not have electricity, water or waste collection so you are going to get caught in that. We have started a few pilots for low-level processing, but the amount of paperwork and expense to do with that makes it difficult to run without having these facilities on the piers. Mr. Bonner will be more aware of this, but the new energy transition partnership is decarbonising fleets. A lot of things are moving towards electrical carry-on, but we cannot even have safety lights on some of the harbours. Infrastructure needs to be brought into the area. In the UK, Spain or France, even tiny little harbours have all the facilities they need.

Boats often come in there to sell directly to people.

Manus Boyle (Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in today. It is good to listen to the concerns. There are a lot of concerns there. The first thing is that a producer organisation should be funded. That is one thing that we should recommend from this committee to the Minister to try to push for funding. At the end of the day, the witnesses are doing the work. People need to be paid for their time and their travel and looking after the communities on the islands.

The social welfare payments for fishermen needs to be totally reformed. We were no burden to the State. We went out and when we came home there was no social welfare. When somebody gets sick or something like that, there is always a problem in a household. We need to talk to the Minister for Social Protection to see whether we can get a package set up for small fishing organisations. Last week alone, I dealt with a man in Donegal hurt his back and he was off. Like myself, he is self-employed and is entitled to nothing. By the time he gets through the social welfare system, it could take 12 months. There has to be a way that a fisherman can get through the system far quicker. The witnesses know better than me. They could be allowed to fish two days this week because of the weather and they might not get out for another three weeks. What is a family to live on? I cannot get it into my head why the likes of the Minister's officials cannot see this. I am steady saying it because I am hearing it back. When people are self-employed, they get no funding at all. By the time they are out the other side of it and trying to get back, they will come with a look of pittance then. I totally agree with that.

Island infrastructure was raised. I know from being on islands that the infrastructure is not there. We need to put a push on piers too and that capital expenditure is spent on islands, even on health and safety grounds for fishermen landing their catch. When I was on one of the islands, two men were lifting fish boxes with ropes. In this day and age it is totally wrong. The infrastructure and social welfare need to be looked at. The 2014 report needs to be implemented and Article 17 needs to be revisited. A lot of stuff needs to be done.

Mr. Early made a good point earlier. ICES and all these organisations are making scientific reports. I talk to fishermen on a weekly basis and ask them where the herring or sprat are in the bays. They are not asked any questions at all. They are the boys who are out there at the coalface. It is no different from Ms Kavanagh and her comments on pollock. If there is pollock out there, the fishermen will know. The fisherman never gets to feed into the scientific issues and that is totally wrong. From what I am hearing in Killybegs all weekend, the boarfish needs to be culled. There are far too many of them. That is the fisherman's advice who is out fishing every day, but nobody wants to listen.

There are a lot of points I would like the witnesses to come back on. Where could we try to do something on the infrastructure? I am trying to work hard on the social welfare issue in order that a social welfare package is put in place for fishermen so that they can get something for the days they cannot fish.

Mr. Enda Conneely:

Mr. Bonner might answer the question on infrastructure.

Mr. Séamus Bonner:

Infrastructure is an ongoing issue. We have done some work where we surveyed all of the islands to see what was there. Basic services are missing on a lot of the piers and slips that people use. There might be a small slip and only one or two boats may fish out of it at one time.

Things like power, light and water - even the very basics - are missing. The funds might be there. We saw funding available from the Brexit adjustment reserve fund, BAR, but, unfortunately, a lot of it was sent back because the local authorities did not have the capacity to apply for it and deliver it on time. That needs to be addressed at local authority level. There is a need to ensure the human resources are there because there is a process where someone has to apply for it. Perhaps there could be a national audit of all piers, harbours and slips to see if they have the basics like light, power and water and if they do not have them, they could be put in place. This is a very basic level of services that could be delivered in the morning if we had the will to do it.

Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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I thank the witnesses for coming before us today. I recognise the importance of and the way of life brought by island fisheries. I grew up in Aphort in Arranmore and have seen the decline in fishing with Muireann's family probably the only ones fishing out of it. We have seen it keep on declining. If social welfare had been in place back when it was meant to come in, we would have attracted more people to this sector instead of driving them away. This has caused a decline that is worrying. Regarding small-scale vessel support, over 50% of fishermen are in employment but get only 14% of the fish. There is an inequality here, particularly when it comes to islands. They are already disadvantaged and more so with this. What are the witnesses' perspectives on the claims that the Department and island fishers have not fully utilised existing quota allocations that are kept for small-scale fishing?

Mr. Enda Conneely:

As far as I am aware, there is an anomaly involving a 400-tonne hooking line mackerel fisher. You cannot just keep throwing out one thing that happened once. I could see the point if they were overshooting every year but as for gearing up for that level of fishing, I am not sure whether it is really worth it for a lot of them to do it. Some of that fish gets caught further north along the coast as it comes in so it is being managed a bit but not that well. Other jurisdictions allocate a lot of quota. The last time I checked a number of years ago, in Germany, anything the small boats cannot catch still stays in Germany. It will go to the bigger boats later in the year.

Mr. Séamus Bonner:

One of the things we are trying to do is get people to move away from non-quota species that they are stuck fishing all year round. This puts pressure on shellfish stocks of crab and lobster, which are under real pressure. Traditionally, people would have fished seasonally so there would have been different fishing seasons at different times of the year and it would give different stocks time to rest so one stock is not being fished very hard. That is what the islands heritage Bill aims to do. We want to return to that fishing practice where certain things are fished at certain times and species are allowed to rest at other times regardless of whether they are breeding or moving offshore. Giving access to different quota species provides people with the flexibility to target fish when they are in their area and when they are able to fish them due to weather and things like that. I do not know if Mr. Early wants to come in on that.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Can Mr. Early hear us? No. We will move on.

Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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The organisation has worked with past committees and others, which has resulted in multiple publications, none of which have been realised. Why do the witnesses think this is the case?

Mr. Jerry Early:

I can come in on that. There was a complete lack of empathy and urgency on the part of the previous committees with which we met. This is our fifth or sixth time in this position and we are still at square one. I have a lot of confidence in this committee because there seems to be a great understanding so I would be very hopeful that as Deputy Mac Lochlainn alluded to earlier, it will work as a committee and ask the hard questions so that we can get the answers and start moving on. To answer Deputy Ward's question, we have been in this position for far too long. If there is a will, there is a way. The time for talking is done and the time for action is very much in the present.

Mr. Séamus Bonner:

This is our eighth appearance before the various committees. There is a list in our opening statement and I invite members to go back over the transcripts. A lot of stuff has been covered over the years. Our first meeting was in 2012. Muireann Kavanagh was mentioned earlier. She was three when we first came here to give evidence and, hopefully, we will have a bit of action on the back of these meetings.

Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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Is there any reason why the organisation has decided against joining the Seafood Ireland Alliance and what is its relationship with that organisation?

Mr. Enda Conneely:

It is at the level of where things are. We have been involved with it at the advisory councils and the Iceland negotiations. We take up slightly different positions, particularly on access for Iceland. I believe it now shows that we were right. That is a one-size-fits-all thing. Our requirements are slightly different. The NIFA has slightly different requirements but we tend to work together on most things. We have worked with it on the advisory councils and offshore renewable energy. We tend to have our own stuff on that as well. We are not against anything the alliance does. It is like how we are members of the European Community and we find that it decides what we do and we have very little say in it any more. Sometimes one is as well sticking to one's own needs and trying to get them dealt with. Our needs are very small. The budgets and other things we need are small but they would have a significant influence on things in years to come for everyone on the islands and coastal communities.

Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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Could Mr. Bonner talk to us about the ABALOBI app, what it does and whether it has had any impact? Does the organisation use it?

Mr. Séamus Bonner:

ABALOBI is a non-profit organisation from South Africa. We did a pilot project on two Irish islands - Arranmore and Inisbofin - during Covid. It was a pilot project funded by Rethink Ireland. We got a small amount of funding to try out the app. It is a phone app where someone can log his or her catch and sell directly to consumers, who have a link back to the story about where and when it was caught so there is full traceability from a QR code that the user scans on his or her phone. It worked well.

We have put into our production and marketing plan to expand its use but the lack of the funding there has really slowed it down. They are well known globally. They were finalists in the Earthshot Prize last year. It has got really good potential because it means that fishermen can get a better price for the catch that they have and make the most of what they are catching.

Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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I am conscious of the time if anyone else wished to come in.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Has Senator O'Reilly any questions?

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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I had questions but they are all answered. I did not want to repeat them. I am sorry I had to leave.

There was one question that I did not hear an answer to, although the witnesses have probably answered it. It is about the track record. Maybe somebody has asked already but can they explain how small-scale island fishers were prevented from establishing a track record and, therefore, normal access to national quota?

Mr. Enda Conneely:

I thank the Senator. It is complicated but I will try to simplify it. The quota was allocated based on track record. If you were fishing, say, 10,000 tonnes of mackerel, you were first in line to get the quota for that. It is well established within the EU system.

The danger is you have to then buy tonnage in kilowatts. In Ireland, in theory, the quota is a public asset that is allocated by the Minister but in practice you find it is nearly de facto privatised at this stage so that there is a danger that if that quota gets attached to a vessel and when the vessels go broke or get taken over by another corporation, all those national assets could disappear off Ireland's assets. At present, there is that.

When I started off fishing, you got a boat and you caught some fish. The fish you caught were yours, the fish I caught were mine and it was a level that it could work. Since the management of it came in through the European Commission competency, they try to get large-scale things done. It is a bit like ICES's advice on the pollock. They pick a huge area with loads of different nuances within it and they just go for it. It does not really suit. What I can see with it is that it is difficult to start into the business at present and that has to be looked at again.

As against track record, I see a lot of it in the crab stuff in the North Sea where some new entrants are killing every kind of crab they get just to build up a record so that they can have themselves set up for getting whatever they think they will get out of it. You need to manage the fishery. You are fishing a finite resource. If you go into it at an industrial scale, you will kill it and it will not come back. We have issues like that at present.

I can go through the track record with the Senator again because we are on the clock here but, essentially, that is the way it works. It is very hard to get into it. It is expensive to get into this kind of stuff for anyone starting off. I do not know whether Mr. Bonner may have anything to add?

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Bonner want to add to that?

Mr. Séamus Bonner:

Briefly, if you were fishing within certain index years, that gave you the track record starting off. The big disadvantage of that is for young people who want to start fishing. If you were not in fishing in those years, you have no way of accessing that track record or quota.

Allocating using track record is a big problem. The gist of what one of our witnesses, in 2018, Jerry Percy from Low Impact Fishers of Europe, LIFE, said was that we can allocate quota to give a good living to many people or we can do it so that a few people make a fortune.

Using track record is the latter. We need to start looking at encouraging young people into fishing so that we can continue what we have been doing for a long time on the islands.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Has Senator O'Reilly another question?

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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No. That is okay. I was shocked, I supposed, to hear the witnesses talk about the lack of services on piers such as, for instance, water and electricity. That is a basic thing that we should all strive to address as soon as possible.

They are correct about the local authorities. Local authorities are overburdened all the time with lots of initiatives and few administrative staff to deal with making applications. Applications can be lengthy and time consuming. Even if this committee could help to get one administrative person - who would be used to doing those kind of applications - designated to coastal communities to have these kind of small services onto their piers, that would be a small thing that we could do.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I suppose we can ask the local authorities in the maritime counties. I can only speak for Donegal. We have a marine engineer who happens to be from the island and then he was promoted and there is another engineer now.

It is not all about the local authorities funding this. Roinn na Gaeltachta can fund projects as well. If the various islands decide on doing an audit on what is required and communicate with their local authorities, we can pursue this with the Minister for social welfare and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Calleary, who is favourably disposed.

Quite a lot has happened on the islands that we are familiar with, even, as recently, the lights in the various ones. Anyway, it is something that we can pursue.

Everybody got an opportunity to contribute. I thank the membership who contributed. I thank Mr. Conneely and Mr. Bonner, and Mr. Early online, for their responses to the questions which have been raised by the members.

Mr. Neily Kavanagh, Ms Muireann Kavanagh and Mr. Martin McBride, who is more familiar with fish-farming than this, did not have an opportunity to speak but I hope that their representatives made a good case on their behalf and that their public representatives responded. We should not leave it here today. We should be available afterwards to help to pursue and to do a follow-up.

That is the end of the contributions. As there are not further matters for discussions, the committee stands adjourned until next Tuesday, 14 October 2025. Go raibh maith agaibh.