Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies have been received from Deputies Scanlon and Callaghan and Senators Craughwell and Clonan.

Before I go into today's business, as the Joint Committee on Defence and National Security meets for engagement on the national maritime security strategy, we send solidarity to activists, including my own colleague and Member of this House Senator Chris Andrews, who have been illegally detained by armed Israeli forces in international waters while onboard the Global Sumud Flotilla.

This flotilla is a peaceful humanitarian mission carrying food and aid to Gaza. Its violent interception is a blatant violation of international law and we demand the immediate release of Senator Andrews and all Irish citizens.

I welcome Colonel Sean Grant, the UK defence attaché to Ireland, to the Gallery.

The joint committee is meeting today in public session for a briefing by officials from the Department of Defence on the draft national maritime security strategy. On behalf of the committee, I welcome from the Department Dr. Margaret Stanley, maritime security unit, Mr. Alan Neary, assistant principal officer, maritime security unit, and Mr. Eoghan Campion, administrative officer in the maritime security unit.

The format of the meeting is that I will invite Dr. Stanley to make an opening statement on behalf of the Department. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member has a seven-minute slot in which to ask questions and for the witnesses to respond.

I advise members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask that any member participating via Microsoft Teams confirm formally, prior to making a contribution to the meeting, that he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Both members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in a such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Lastly, as the witnesses will probably be aware, the committee will publish the opening statements on its website following the meeting. I now invite Dr. Stanley to make an opening statement on behalf of the Department.

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

Good morning. I thank the Chair and members for inviting me to provide the committee with an update on the Department of Defence’s work to prepare the national maritime security strategy. I am accompanied by my colleagues Alan Neary and Eoghan Campion. Last December, I was assigned the responsibility of setting up the new maritime security unit in the Department of Defence. Prior to that, I headed up the office of emergency planning, which supports cross-government co-ordination during national emergencies. The decision by the then Tánaiste and Minister for Defence that the responsibility for co-ordinating maritime security nationally and developing a strategy would fall to my Department represented the first time such responsibility had been assigned in the history of the State. This followed last year’s defence policy review, which identified maritime security as a key priority because of the assessed threat level, our geographic position and our responsibility and commitment to support the security and defence of Europe.

In addition, our most recent national risk assessment, which the Department of Defence co-ordinates on a whole-of-government basis, identified damage to undersea infrastructure as one of the 22 key risks for the country.

As an island nation, we are reliant on critical maritime infrastructure. Undersea cables in our waters carry a significant proportion of transatlantic Internet traffic and financial data, while approximately 75% of our natural gas supply is imported via subsea pipelines. We also have electricity interconnectors connecting us to neighbouring countries, and there are plans advancing to develop significant offshore renewable facilities in our waters. This infrastructure is vulnerable to disruption, whether from state-sponsored hybrid attacks, cyber threats or accidental damage. The increasingly volatile geopolitical situation, illustrated by incidents occurring in the Baltic Sea, demonstrates the vulnerability of this infrastructure to threats.

As a result of all of this, the key first task my unit is focusing on is preparing the new national maritime security strategy. An important step we took in support of this strategy was the public consultation we carried out over the summer. Our purpose was to encourage open, constructive dialogue and to build consensus on the risks, challenges and opportunities facing Ireland’s maritime domain. This public consultation saw significant engagement from a wide range of interested parties, including responses from government, academia, industry and members of the public.

The submissions received indicate that there is strong support for the strategy’s development. There is also a very clear understanding of Ireland's most urgent maritime security challenges, particularly the growing threats to critical undersea infrastructure, with the protection of this infrastructure emerging as the foremost concern, reflecting its vital role in Ireland’s economy and security. We also detected significant support for international co-operation to improve maritime security.

The views of industry received as part of the consultation, particularly the views of those who own and operate critical maritime infrastructure, heavily mirrored the views of the general public. There is clear willingness on the part of industry to engage, co-operate and co-ordinate with the Government to support increased maritime security.

Analysis of the submissions is ongoing and the input gathered will serve as a critical foundation for shaping a robust and forward-looking strategy to ensure Ireland is well prepared to meet current and future challenges in our maritime domain. Another step taken by the Tánaiste to support the strategy’s development was his approval for Defence Forces participation in the EU’s common information-sharing environment. This initiative will support better monitoring and surveillance of growing threats at sea and will aid their decision-making during complex maritime operational scenarios.

In another strand of work, we have undertaken extensive outreach to identify and explore opportunities to co-operate with neighbouring countries, the EU and international institutions, including our neighbours in the north Atlantic. Further international engagement is ongoing and more meetings are planned between now and the delivery of the strategy. This significant international engagement has allowed us to access examples of best practice and to learn from the extensive experience in monitoring and protecting critical maritime infrastructure that many of our neighbours have developed.

From all of these various strands of work, our overall view is that we need to focus this first strategy on the most urgent risks and threats we face in the national security and defence space, with a particular focus on enhancing maritime-domain awareness and on ensuring the protection of critical maritime infrastructure, especially critical undersea infrastructure.

I thank the committee members for their time and attention. Before concluding, I have to point out that while my team and I have made significant progress to date in collating all the information from the various strands of our work, including information from our consultation process, our own research and our international engagements, what we have as a strategy at the moment is very much in draft form. At this stage, I cannot go into the details of what will form the recommendations for implementation as part of the strategy. That will be presented to the Tánaiste for his consideration and approval by the end of the year. I do, however, welcome the opportunity presented by today’s discussions to get the committee’s perspective on what I believe will aid us in doing this important work.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Dr. Stanley. Deputy Ó Laoghaire is the first member who has indicated a desire to speak. He is to be followed by Deputies Stanley and Smith.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I acknowledge the important work the Department is doing and wish you the best of luck with it. The aim of a session like this is for us to ask questions. Dr. Stanley has said the strategy will be published after the consultation and all the work is finished, so I am not totally clear on what questions she can or cannot answer. I certainly agree this needs to be an area of significant priority. When we consider our defence and security, we need to analyse them through the prism of what is most relevant to us in the circumstances we are in. We are an island nation with a very substantial coastline and there is a great deal of communications infrastructure off our coast.

The strategy needs to balance policy and outlining the protocols and the appropriate responses and resources in terms of our naval capacity, but also, perhaps, in other respects. Does Dr. Stanley have a sense of where there is a gap in our policy and protocols, or is it primarily an issue of resources that we need to consider?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

I thank the Deputy. We do not have a policy at the moment in that area. That is the focus of my work in developing the strategy. This is the first time responsibility for maritime security has been assigned. Maritime security obviously includes a huge defence component, but it also involves other Departments and agencies across the State that have different roles to play in different aspects of maritime security. My role in developing this strategy is a complex one that includes trying to identify exactly how to best ensure the collaboration of all those who need to be working together to improve our overall security. While defence is leading on this work, I emphasise it is a whole-of-government approach we hope to achieve in developing this new policy and strategy area.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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One of the key elements I imagine is likely to come out of this in the context of our naval capacity and the Commission on the Defence Forces is the development of a 12-ship fleet by 2040. A couple of things occurred to me, and I want to get Dr. Stanley's views on skills shortages that might constrain our ability to come to terms with the threats we face. Generally speaking, across the board there will be a requirement in the Naval Service for more mariners. That is happening at a time when, potentially, the development of floating offshore wind capacity will also require more mariners. In both the private and public sectors, therefore, there is potentially going to be a demand for more people in that sphere where there are already not enough people with the skills and abilities. I do not know whether it is through the national maritime college, but where or how do we expand the base of mariners to recruit from?

To be able to put ships to sea, at times the Naval Service has been constrained by the fact there are not enough trained artificers in the Naval Service. I have raised with the Minister the issue of service commitment schemes to try to retain and recruit more people with those skills. They are two very significant gaps. We can all have the objective, and I expect we all do have the objective, to expand the Naval Service to be able to address some of the potential threats that exist, but those skill shortages could hold us back even if the budget is available.

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

It is not direct to my area of work but I agree the issue of people is going to be at the heart of improving how we approach this whole area. Approximately half of the Report of the Commission on the Defence Forces from a number of years ago focused on HR issues affecting the Defence Forces, and of course the Naval Service is a part of that. Since the publication of that report, colleagues in my Department have been working very closely with the Defence Forces to develop a wide range of approaches and tools to improve recruitment and retention in the Defence Forces and particularly in the Naval Service. There is a wide range of measures, from changing recruitment ages to tax credits, seagoing allowances to increases in pay, providing private healthcare and so on. From reports I have seen, recruitment in the Naval Service does seem to be improving as a result. In the meantime, there has to be an overall increase in the level of operational activity of the Naval Service in support of overall maritime security, from my perspective. The military authorities are preparing a naval regeneration plan for the Tánaiste, which will look into this area specifically. Again, it is not my direct area. It will be very important, from my perspective and for the national strategy, once it is published, to have a well-resourced Naval Service and wider Defence Forces to be able to support implementation of the strategy itself.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Dr. Stanley to take that on board in developing the strategy. The need for more personnel might be happening at the same time as demands on other very important sectors such as renewables and so on. They could be competing for the same skills to expand capacity.

There is more and more discussion of the danger of hybrid threats, such as physical interference combined with cyber threats. They are being co-ordinated. Could Dr. Stanley offer a comment on her assessment of the danger of hybrid maritime threats to Irish infrastructure and Irish civil administration?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

Despite all of the recruitment and retention challenges being faced by the Defence Forces, the Naval Service has a 24-7 eye on what is happening in the maritime area. It is hugely important to understand what vessels are in the seas around us. It is aided in that by the work of the Air Corps, which provides very sophisticated monitoring of our seas. This is a hugely important aspect of the maritime security strategy to improve maritime situational awareness of what is going on in our waters. A way of dealing with hybrid threats is to understand who is there in order to deny them the ability to pretend nothing is happening. With hybrid activity, it is really important to know what is going on.

It is also important to have a very whole-of-government response to hybrid threats. Another thing my Department is leading on is co-ordinating whole-of-government exercises to potential hybrid attacks or situations, including with maritime or cyber elements. We are being aided in this work by the Helsinki Hybrid Centre of Excellence, which has helped my Department and other Departments create realistic scenarios of the potential things that could happen in our waters. It is really important to continue these types of exercises and to develop them and make them more realistic and sophisticated to better gauge how we can deal with this real and growing hybrid threat we see all around us.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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My first question relates to the current level of protection. From discussions in this room and elsewhere in the Oireachtas, it is clear we have a low level of defence and protection of our undersea infrastructure at the moment. Given our position globally and the amount of territorial sea that is within the domain of this State, it is key that we be able to protect that infrastructure. What is there at the moment? I do not want to be abrupt but I ask the witnesses to please keep the responses short. What it there at the moment? Is it just two navy ships? Is that it?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

I cannot comment on the operational situation. Protecting this infrastructure does require a whole-of-government approach. It is the Naval Service, it is the Air Corps-----

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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With respect, that could mean anything. I am trying to understand. As the principal officer in the unit, surely Dr. Stanley would have a notion of what is deployed at the moment. Is it just two naval ships patrolling the Irish seas?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

The operational capabilities of the Naval Service at the moment are at a very low level but I cannot comment exactly on what is happening right now.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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To date, have there been major incidents where undersea infrastructure has been damaged? Obviously, that the likes of Internet cables, energy pipelines and undersea cables for electricity be protected. Have there been incidents where damage has happened?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

We can observe incidents in the Baltic Sea, which we have been learning from as a country. What is happening internationally is an opportunity for us-----

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Within Irish territorial waters, has damage been caused to any undersea infrastructure?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

That is a very broad question. I understand accidental damage can happen. Other incidents, such as natural hazards, can affect these cables, but I am not aware specifically of any hybrid actions against infrastructure.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Is it correct that neither the Naval Service nor the Defence Forces have brought to the attention of the Department any damage to date to undersea cables or undersea infrastructure that Dr. Stanley is aware of?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

The Defence Forces are constantly monitoring, but I am not aware of any specific hybrid-related incident in Irish waters.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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I am just trying to get the picture of where things are at.

There is broad agreement that what we have is not adequate at present. I think that is accepted. There will have to be increased spending to improve the Naval Service and other Defence Forces to be able to monitor and have the appropriate technology, etc. I am not in a position to say what technology is acquired - that is for the Defence Forces and particularly the navy - but to upskill the navy, provide new equipment and put more ships to sea, what are the broad figures for the cost of that between now and 2030?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

There has been an allocation of €1.7 billion from the national development plan for the defence development plan which goes up to 2030. That represents a significant increase, of 55%, on the last allocation. A civil military team within my Department is looking at this capability development plan for this, in fact beyond 2030 and up to 2040, to focus on how to use this money for best effect. A military radar project that will include maritime radar is well advanced.

Work is also ongoing to invest in sonar capability for the Naval Service. This will give capability to our Naval Service to detect objects near cables and pipelines in Irish waters. These new acquisitions and capabilities will enhance awareness of what is happening above and below the surface of the sea and will help the Defence Forces to have a wider maritime situational awareness.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Of the €1.7 billion increase between now and 2030-----

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

The €1.7 billion represents a 55% increase on the previous allocation, which I think was €1.1 billion. I do not specifically work in that area but that is my understanding.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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In broad terms, what percentage of that will be for the navy and naval spending?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

I cannot at present give those exact types of figures.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Surely at this stage they would have their shopping list of what is required.

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

I would not say the strategy I am developing is a shopping list. Rather, it is a roadmap to try to improve maritime security. I think it is a bit premature-----

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Is it one third or half that figure?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

I cannot put any percentage figure on it. It is important to be aware that many ways of improving maritime security may or may not cost money. For example, improving co-ordination and developing networks of people working in the maritime security space might be quite low cost but would have a big impact. Obviously, these bigger projects are also needed and I would also see other Departments as having a part to play.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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In terms of big costs, if there are currently two ships that can be put to sea, the expectation is that we would need a further three or four. Surely at this stage there are conversations happening between the senior officers in the navy and Dr. Stanley's Department, at principal officer and Secretary General level, about the cost and that will be part of the strategy. She is correct that some of it will be low cos, such as networking and sharing information with other countries, but in terms of actual hardware, what is the estimate for the number of extra vessels required to patrol the extensive territorial waters we have?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

It would be premature for me to comment on that in advance of the strategy being finalised. On the naval side, the military authorities are developing a naval regeneration plan for the Tánaiste, which he hopes to receive shortly. It will help improve the operational situation for ships at sea.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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As regards other military and naval hardware required and the big costs, what are the other main items that will take up a sizable part of that budget?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

A civil military team in my Department working in the capability development space is developing a plan for the most efficient use of this new allocation funding. From my perspective, it is too early to say how much specific funding is going to be allocated for my specific area.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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I was hoping we would have some shape on that this morning, although I understand the final plan strategy has to go before the Tánaiste and be agreed.

Finally, with regard to interference with Internet cables by other countries, do the Department and the Defence Forces have much evidence of that? There have been reports in the media at times of other countries interfering with Internet connections between this State and other countries.

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

My Department is working with other Departments to seek solutions at international level. The type of activity the Deputy is referring to is affecting not just our country but all across Europe. There are meetings happening to look at taking as broad an approach as possible to dealing with this new threat, which can involve increased information sharing between countries as well as sanctions.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Does one of the issues the Department is dealing with as part of this strategy relate to other countries and other states that are tapping into Internet cables and are able to intercept messages between the Government in this country and governments in other countries, or between business leaders in this country and business leaders in other countries? There has been a lot of evidence of this over the years, not from far-flung countries but from countries that are close enough to us. Will this form part of the strategy?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

I am not aware of that particular issue. What we have done is-----

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Would this not be a critical issue for the State? Every state has to protect its own infrastructure and information systems and everything else, both financially and from a security point of view. If this is not part of the strategy, should it not be part of it?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

Different aspects of this strategy look at various aspects of our maritime security. So far, we have identified about 13 specific risks we want this strategy to deal with. Several Departments, not just ourselves, will be co-operating on dealing with those risks. Much of the infrastructure the Deputy has referenced, which we refer to, is owned and operated by the private sector and industry. It will be part of the strategy and will be important to work with them as well.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Chair, if we are doing a report on this, it is really important, without anyone getting paranoid about it, that in the context of undersea infrastructure and communication cables, one part of the strategy should be about monitoring interference by other countries with Internet connections between this State and other states, whether it is private business or the business of the State and Government.

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

It would be very important for the work on my strategy to also work with those colleagues who are developing the national cybersecurity strategy. I think it will be important for us to work together on that because cybersecurity of this information is a vital issue.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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That is an important question. Dr. Stanley would not be aware of incidents where lines may have been tapped. Who would be aware of them?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

Some of the new types of cables that carry information are quite sophisticated. I am not aware of specific capabilities that exist at present. I am just considering the nature of these new types of cables, which can often sense what is happening to themselves. It will be important that we, as a Department and Government, co-operate with the owners and operators of this technology to understand better the nature of this new technology and how best to protect it.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Of course it is. It is important that the Government be in charge so that it is not information going between private companies and that the Government will have control over it.

We now move to Deputy Smith.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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To what extent is the threat posed by Russia framing the development of our maritime security strategy?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

The overall geopolitical situation is extremely concerning from our perspective. We can see the very volatile geopolitical situation that is occurring. Even the news today has highlighted the vulnerabilities of our infrastructure. I am looking at the maritime space specifically. The increasing actions of the State do highlight these vulnerabilities. With the strategy we need to consider all of the mitigations we need to put in place and how we can better organise ourselves to deal with this threat from the shadow fleet and other such threats.

The Russian shadow fleet does not just present a security threat. It also presents a safety and environmental threat because these ships that might be going near our waters can often be very poorly maintained and might have badly trained crew on board. If anything happened to these vessels, it could be a very significant event for the maritime environment considering the cargo they carry.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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What kind of cargo do they carry that would cause a significant maritime event?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

My understanding is that the reason the shadow fleet was set up was to evade the sanctions that the US placed on Russia's oil industry. They typically carry oil.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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Some of those vessels would not be in too much of a hurry to get the oil into places because there would be a lot of intelligence out there. I have engaged with a couple of private intelligence agencies that state that the Russian shadow fleet would idle, for want of a better word, over undersea cables or in the vicinity of undersea cables for extended periods. Is that accurate?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

I have seen reports of that. It has been observed.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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We are engaging with the EU's common information sharing environment on this strategy. Are we engaging with any similar NATO schemes, arms or programmes as we are developing this strategy?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

As a partner nation, Ireland has a relationship with NATO through our individually tailored partnership programme, which was agreed last year. We have a lot to learn from how NATO protects the critical undersea infrastructure in its area. There is an opportunity for Ireland to improve its national security by accessing this type of information and understanding better how we can develop our new approaches to helping our situation at home.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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I was on a delegation from this committee that attended a security conference in Copenhagen in August. It was very clear that the strong view and position among EU nations is that they are in conflict in Russia be it through drone warfare, economic attacks or actual war such as in Ukraine. NATO has long existed in terms of a posture against Russia. We are engaging with two bodies, the EU and NATO, that are in conflict with Russia at this time, whether hot, cold or lukewarm. Is it fair to say that the energy behind developing this overdue strategy is the threat from Russia?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

The worsening geopolitical situation has certainly been a spur to its development. It certainly was behind the defence policy review that was carried out last year, which identified maritime security as the key issue that needs to be focused on. That was essentially why my Department stood up to take on this co-ordination role. It is a very complex issue. It is the first time this many Departments and agencies of the State have a part to play in maritime security. The role of my unit in my Department is to try to better co-ordinate how we cooperate on this issue in light, as the Deputy said, of these increasing threats.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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What role, if any, is there for civilian or industrial vessels, fisheries or anyone else in this strategy? I know it is in draft form and I appreciate Dr. Stanley coming into the committee so early in her Department's work on such a sensitive issue. Where does she see the role of non-Defence Forces fleets in our security strategy?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

The private sector has a part to play in this. We want to try to have a whole-of-government approach to this but it may be better to say that we want a whole-of-society approach given the nature of the maritime domain. A lot of people are working privately at sea who have access to a wealth of information and can observe things. There are potential ways through this strategy to develop a better way of sharing information, networking together and improving how we conduct exercises. I mentioned that we have undertaken exercises to look at how we would react to these sort of hybrid threats. These cross-government exercises may need to include elements of the private sector or industry to have a full understanding of what is going on and how we can we work together to improve our overall security.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Dr. Stanley and her colleagues and thank them for coming before us. I welcome the development of this strategy, which is long overdue. As Dr. Stanley stated, there are constant threats to our undersea cables, natural gas supply, electricity interconnectors and, as outlined by Deputy Ó Laoghaire, proposed offshore wind turbines. They are all vulnerable to disruption so it is very important that we tackle this head on. I do not envy Dr. Stanley's task. As she said it is intergovernmental and Departments have to be brought together to develop this strategy. Has she a timeline for when she hopes to have the strategy finalised?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

I thank the Senator for his good wishes and his sympathies for my work. The Tánaiste has asked for a draft strategy before the end of the year. We are working to that timeline at the moment. It is quite a complex area of work. We had the public consultation. We are talking to other countries with many visits abroad and have more planned. We have had wide consultations across government as well on this. Trying to bring all of these different threads together to make a coherent strategy with different aspects to it is a complex undertaking but we are confident that we will meet the Tánaiste's expectations of having a strategy before the end of the year.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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How many interdepartmental stakeholders are involved?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

We have spoken with almost every Department and with many agencies as well. I cannot list them all out her directly but it is a very wide swathe of Departments and agencies and reflects the nature of the maritime domain. Many different Government agencies and Departments cover aspects of it. For example, our colleagues in the Department of Transport have certain responsibilities to do with ship and port security. An Garda Síochána has a role to play because of the legal jurisdiction in territorial waters. Our colleagues in the Revenue Commissioners have a customs role and drug enforcement responsibilities as well. There are also agencies such as the Commissioners for Irish Lights, the Fisheries Protection Authority, MARA, which works in the maritime planning space, and so on. It is a very complex area and requires seeking a wide swathe of views as well as feedback from stakeholders on what their expectations are and what they hope this strategy could include.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Does Dr. Stanley foresee the Department of Defence continuing to lead the overall co-ordination of all of these interdepartmental bodies?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

Part of the decision by the then Tánaiste was that as well as co-ordinating the first national maritime security strategy, the Department would have a role in maritime security going forward.

The Department of Defence does, therefore, anticipate that will continue.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I very much welcome the Defence Forces participation in the EU's common information sharing environment, CISE. Is Dr. Stanley in a position to elaborate further in that regard? As an extension to that question, it was said extensive outreach has been undertaken to identify and explore opportunities to co-operate "with neighbouring countries, the EU and international institutions, including our neighbours in the north Atlantic". I welcome the military attaché who is here from the British Embassy. I assume we are in close contact with our nearest neighbours in this regard. Insofar as she can, can Dr. Stanley elaborate on what this entails?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

On UK co-operation, as our near neighbours, much of a critical infrastructure connects under the sea between our country and the UK. Our security, therefore, is their security and vice versa when it comes to this particular critical undersea infrastructure, especially the gas pipelines that connect our two countries. I reference the joint statement the Taoiseach and the UK Prime Minister made earlier in the year on increased co-operation. It looked at a wide spread of areas, but maritime security was singled out, especially the security of critical undersea infrastructure, which is a new area on which we want our two countries to co-operate closely. In addition to the UK, we have had meetings with people in other countries too, including France, the Netherlands, Finland, Norway and others to understand better how they approach increasing their maritime security and what we can learn, how we can share information and how we can perhaps co-ordinate. Again, given the nature of the maritime domain, no one country can be secure in itself. There is a huge importance on working together and identifying opportunities for co-operation. Specifically on the common information sharing environment, if it is okay, I ask Mr. Neary to speak in a little more detail on this area because he is very aware of this particular project.

Mr. Alan Neary:

In terms of CISE, as was referred to, the Tánaiste approved the participation of the Defence Forces in CISE in April. This will enable the Defence Forces to share information with maritime authorities in other EU states. Currently, there are 11 countries that are CISE members in the context of the information sharing tool that will enhance the maritime domain awareness of the Defence Forces and allow them to support better monitoring of threats at sea, including critical maritime infrastructure, drug-trafficking and other illegal activities. This is an early action for our strategy and it was approved by the Tánaiste in April.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Neary. Finally, I understand there have been huge developments in relation to various technologies available to monitor undersea cables in particular. I assume Europe will be looking into this whole area.

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

As well as focusing on things like maritime domain awareness and protecting critical undersea infrastructure, I think there is also an opportunity with the strategy to leave room for research and innovation objectives to improve the overall maritime security situation. Ireland's many universities and colleges and private industry are working in a very innovative way and there is an opportunity to identify how we can better work together with them to produce something very positive.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Dr. Stanley. I thank the Cathaoirleach.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh agat. I just have a couple of things to ask. Obviously, as the Joint Committee on Defence and National Security, we need to be confident in respect of ensuring we have a national maritime security strategy that is fit for purpose. What does Dr. Stanley think is the best role this committee can play in supporting the Department’s work and enabling co-operation to happen as quickly as possible? I have the concern that this just seems to have started quite recently when one would think it should have started years ago.

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

This is the first time we have attempted to do something like this in the State. It is a complex and very new area, as was said. It is also responding to new threats that have emerged very recently. Ireland is not the only country facing this kind of dilemma and trying to figure out a new way of approaching this issue. Many other countries we have talked to as part of this process are not too far away from our approach or the need to produce a more co-ordinated way of dealing with these kinds of threats and improving overall maritime security.

Regarding the role of this committee, it is certainly very welcome that we have been invited here today and we have been listening very closely to what kind of questions have been asked. We will be reflecting on that after this session. While the formal consultation period is over, we would very much welcome if there are specific ideas and actions the committee thinks we should pursue. We would very much take those on board and consider them as part of these various strands of work we are doing to produce the overall strategy.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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When a whole-of-government approach is spoken of and other Departments being involved, I think this aspect is important but it also worries me in the sense that there are so many pieces working together. Are there Secretaries General or principal officers from other Departments in particular that we could or should invite here to discuss some of the issues raised today?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

It would be very remiss of me to put forward other Departments, but-----

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Well, maybe-----

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

-----I would say most Departments do have a role to play.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I will reframe my question in a different way. What are the top three Departments that have the key role here?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

From a cybersecurity perspective, the Department of justice has responsibility for the National Cyber Security Centre. Given the nature of some of the undersea infrastructure, it will be very important that there is co-ordination between the physical and cyber aspects of the security of this critical infrastructure. There is also the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment because energy infrastructure is a vital area as well. If my arm was twisted for a third Department, then, the Department of Transport has responsibility for Dublin Port and this is a vital part of the critical maritime infrastructure of the State, given its importance from the point of view of imports into the country and so on. If I had to name Departments, then, I think those would be particularly important ones.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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If we have approximately 95% of Internet connections in the form of subsea infrastructure owned by private companies, how is the relationship managed with those private entities in terms of where responsibilities lie and in terms of collaboration between them and Government? Overall, it is obviously the Government’s responsibility.

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

I do think this is a very important area. First and foremost, we could say that much of this infrastructure is owned and operated by the private sector. As a first line of defence, therefore, we could say those companies have responsibilities to ensure the safety and security of their own infrastructure. As the threats mount, however, and the potential for hybrid attacks increases, I do think there is a role for Government too. The strategy will have to work in that space where there is not necessarily a clear line between it, but what is clear is that there needs to be a lot more co-operation between the Government and private industry on improving overall security and resilience in this space. The strategy, potentially, has actions such as providing guidelines on how to better improve security and resilience in the face of new threats. There is, potentially, an opportunity to develop structured trusted networks in order that information can be shared in a trusted environment between industry and the Government. There may also be an opportunity to take part in exercises or to perform stress tests on this infrastructure to find out where the vulnerabilities are and how they can best be mitigated. I think there are lots of ways for the strategy to improve this interaction between the Government and industry.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Has a scenario been modelled where all these subsea cables are physically damaged? What would the impact of such a scenario be here on our vital infrastructure, like our hospitals and many other vital services in terms of telecommunications? What would be the impact on trade, the economy and society in general?

Has the Department modelled this and what does it look like?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

I mentioned some exercises the Department has helped to co-ordinate and lead on. These exercises are of this nature, I would say. They bring various Departments and agencies together to look at a high level at how such incidents can be responded to, what the potential impacts could be and how they could be mitigated. More of these are needed.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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What can Dr. Stanley say today to allay the fears of people who can see the vulnerability of our subsea infrastructure and the impact it might have?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

On the positive side, focus and attention are being given to this issue. We know the new strategy is being developed. We know the Government is encouraging more co-ordinated action between Departments. We are working more closely with our near neighbours in our maritime area, and with our colleagues in the European Union, to consider how we can all work together to face this threat, for example, by developing new legal solutions for what is happening with the shadow fleet and others. Many actions are being taken at various levels, nationally and internationally, to consider how to deal with this and how to improve the situation.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Is particular preparation being done for next year in the event of all the EU member states gathering here?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

I would not like to comment on that. I know colleagues in various Departments are working very hard on preparing for Ireland's Presidency of the EU in the second half of next year.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Dr. Stanley.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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It might be useful to put on the record and flesh out what direction this will travel. Sometimes the distinction between our exclusive economic zone and Irish waters is lost. As I understand it, Ireland has a responsibility to monitor what is happening in our exclusive economic zone. This is not strictly speaking our sovereign waters but under international maritime law it is the responsibility of Ireland. Primarily this relates to monitoring and, where appropriate, accompanying or following ships that travel into the international zone. There is particular concern where this relates to craft in shadow fleets. Will Dr. Stanley flesh out her thinking on the distinction between the exclusive economic zone and Irish waters, the fact that both are very much the responsibility of Ireland, and how various incidents in the two categories should be responded to?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

The Deputy is right that it is a very complex situation at sea with the various zones, including the territorial waters, the contiguous zone, the exclusive economic zone and the high seas. Various legal situations apply depending on exactly where a ship is or where some infrastructure is located. A very important part of the strategy will be to have an increased focus on legislation that applies in the maritime environment. From an Irish perspective, it is going to be very important to ensure a consistent approach is adopted in all legislation that deals with these kinds of threats, and that we identify and apply legal solutions to protect the critical undersea infrastructure located in these waters. It is likely to be an important focus of the strategy. As part of this, Ireland is part of the wider international community and the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea is an international legal instrument that we all work under. Developing innovative or new legal solutions in the context of this convention will be part of the work we will undertake.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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A fair bit of this discussion has been on the shadow fleet, primarily with regard to Russian craft. A few months ago RTÉ reported that 245 shadow fleet vessels passed through the economic zone. Obviously, this is one of the key considerations. One of the issues highlighted by RTÉ at that stage was that, strictly speaking, the flags under which these craft operate are of various countries. Five typical flags of convenience have been identified which are often used and these are the Marshall Islands, Liberia, Malta, Comoros and Panama. Has the Department of Defence requested that the Department of foreign affairs engage with these countries regarding whether it is too easy to obtain a flag of convenience or whether these countries have concerns about ships that are flying under their flags in Irish waters?

Drones are in the media a great deal, unfortunately, due to quite nefarious ends in Gaza and with regard to the flotilla over the past 24 hours and in the past week. They are of potentially utility to the Irish State and the Defence Forces. They could play a role in the monitoring of our seas. Precisely what the balance is I do not know in terms of craft and drones but they could be part of the mix. Does Dr. Stanley have initial observations on this? Does she have any thoughts? I know she will not get into recommendations at this stage but what is the direction of her thinking?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

On the flag issue, the Department of Defence is working closely with the Department of foreign affairs and other Departments on this. Certainly it is an issue that is of wider concern in Europe also. Part of the way to deal with the shadow fleet is not only monitoring the vessels themselves but also looking more closely at the sanctions regime and using international efforts to speak to the countries that are the repositories of the flag registers. It is not only about a whole-of-government approach but a whole-of-Europe approach to try to deal with this issue.

On the issue of drones and autonomous vehicles, this new technology is a multiplier, certainly compared to traditional ships and aircraft. There will always be a limit on how many ships and aircraft we have, and, considering the enormous nature of the waters around us, we need to figure out various ways we can multiply our understanding, and have enhanced maritime domain awareness, of what is happening in the sea around us. We also need to look at the potential for space-based observation. There are multiple ways and means. We can increase the sensors in our waters, on the seabed and in the sea itself. There are also the sky above and space. This is something the civil and military team in the Department is looking at from the point of view of capability development out to 2040. It is looking at the opportunities presented by all of this new technology and the various assets that might improve monitoring capacity. This is another very important area of work that will, hopefully, improve our overall maritime security.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank Dr. Stanley for coming before the committee to address a very important issue. I am delighted it is something we are beginning to focus on as a Government and a State. I apologise for stepping out. I had to go to another committee meeting for voting purposes.

Dr. Stanley has addressed some of my questions. She mentioned the Department is engaging with various Departments on this area. I appreciate she cannot necessarily always answer the questions we have on the day. Does Dr. Stanley envisage that all of this will have to be brought under one Department to achieve the overall objectives of any policy outcome? Is this something that is being considered as part of the policy outcomes?

Does Dr. Stanley anticipate a level of investment will be attached to the outcomes of the initial review of all of this? In response to Deputy Ó Laoghaire, Dr. Stanley mentioned the space aspect. What is the vertical height for maritime security that we are considering as part of this strategy? Where does it end? How does Dr. Stanley see this policy interacting with some of the environmental aspects?

I know we have an Irish whale and dolphin sanctuary around our coast. That is well recognised and well respected. Is that being taken into account as well in developing this strategy?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

I thank the Deputy for her questions. On the environmental aspects, for this very first national maritime security strategy we are developing, we are aiming to focus specifically on national security and defence aspects of maritime security for this initial roll-out. I absolutely agree with the Deputy: maritime security is bigger than national security and defence. Environmental security, economic security and human security are all important. For this initial focus, however, we wanted to focus on the most urgent risks and threats in this space. That is why we are looking at the national security and defence element of maritime security in this initial phase.

On the space assets issue, as the committee has heard, we have a team looking at this issue out to 2040 under various types of assets that might potentially be needed. That analysis is still ongoing. As part of one of the early support measures for security, the Tánaiste agreed that we join the common information sharing environment, which is an EU initiative focusing on maritime information. That will give the Defence Forces access to the various data streams that this information platform has, and that includes access to space-based assets to information from that.

On the wider investment issue, the national development plan allocates €1.7 billion to the defence development space out to 2030. That €1.7 billion represents a very significant increase in funding compared to the last allocation, a 55% increase. There is a team in my Department looking at how best to focus that funding for the best effect, the most capability and what is needed. A civil-military team is looking at that at the moment. I mentioned to another Deputy earlier that I would not want to say exactly how much that might affect the maritime space. I cannot give a particular figure of what this strategy might cost but I do know there are projects already ongoing which will have a significant effect on improving maritime security. For example, there is a well-advanced military radar project going on at the moment, and maritime radar will be part of that. That will be a hugely significant investment. There is also a team looking at developing an acquisition of sonar capability for the Naval Service. That will increase significantly the capabilities of the Naval Service to detect objects around the critical infrastructure that is in the seabed, in our waters.

As regards the issue of bringing together Departments, I am not sure, given the nature of the maritime domain, how practical it would be to bring all elements of the maritime domain into one Government Department. I think it is too wide a space, too wide an area. What I think the strategy can do is propose and develop new methods of joint co-ordination among all the key Departments and agencies in order that we can better work together, share information, do real-time analysis of what is actually happening and have better decision-making structures involving all who need to be involved in that. However, this will require the strategy to identify exactly what the rules and responsibilities are there, who needs to be in the room sharing information and making decisions and so on. Hopefully, the strategy will start developing a roadmap to getting to where we need to be on this area.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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That is great. I have one final question, if that is okay. Coming back to unmanned aircraft vehicles, drones, there is a framework strategy being developed at the moment for commercial drones. Are the witnesses or any of their team inputting into that? Obviously, what we allow commercial drones to do will impact how we would operate any defensive strategy around drones or should be part of our overall defence approach as to how much activity we allow in the commercial area.

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

I am afraid I cannot answer that question - it is not my area - but, Chair, if you are okay with this, I could maybe take it back to my Department and ask them. I do not have an answer for the Deputy right now.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Okay. I thank Dr. Stanley.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Do private companies or private entities share the results of their resilience testing with your Department, Dr. Stanley, or what legislation would be required to ensure that that happened? Obviously, it is critical to what we are trying to achieve here.

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

Elsewhere in my Department, that is, the Department of Defence, there is responsibility for the new critical entities resilience regulations. That is a new Europe-wide approach to improving the security and resilience of different sectors of the economy that have provided vital support for society and economy. As part of the work of looking at critical entities resilience, my Department has co-ordinated stress tests on certain parts of this infrastructure in the energy sector to identify opportunities to improve their security and resilience. I would not want to go into too much detail on that, but that is a good example of what can happen when industry and the Government work together with the overall aim of improving security. That is another measure, co-ordinating this area, that could be taken forward in the maritime space.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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But what I am asking is whether there is any legal obligation on any of these private entities to share that resilience testing in real time, or are we just depending on them to co-operate?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

The Tánaiste signed in new regulations in October of last year on critical entities resilience. Those are a statutory instrument which will focus on different aspects of this. My Department is developing a national strategy to guide this work. I could ask my colleagues if they can provide additional information to the committee if that would be useful.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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The question is just to ensure that that legislation is robust enough to give us confidence that that information is shared with the appropriate people in government in real time.

Has your Department also looked at alternative supply chains for energy as part of the work it is doing?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

I know another Department, I think the Department of energy, is looking at opportunities to mitigate the risk of the gas pipelines that bring gas from the UK to Ireland. There is consideration of potentials for gas reserve facilities and so on. That is not directly my area of work but I think it will be an important mitigant to improve overall security if the vulnerability of that gas supply is mitigated in some way.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Obviously, this has to be done on an all-island basis, so what co-operation is there between the Executive in the North and the Department here?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

There is no specific area. We have obviously been co-ordinating with the UK as a whole on this work but we have not had specific discussions with our colleagues in Northern Ireland. My colleagues are working on the critical entities resilience that I mentioned to you. That will be important to co-operate with. We do have very close relations with our northern colleagues, and this is another support for the strategy I am helping to develop.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Are you confident that we are building the sufficient in-house expertise to be able to deal with all these challenges in order that we are building that up over time rather than relying on external expertise?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

My unit is fairly small and new, of course, but we have focused since we were formed at the end of last year on developing a better understanding of what is happening. We have been consulting widely, not just with the public but across the Government and with others. The nature of this issue is such that I am not sure any one country will ever be able to solve it. The nature of the infrastructure connects our countries through the seabed and so on, so there will always be, I think, an element of having to work closely with neighbours and others to improve our understanding and to get a better focus on how we can improve our overall maritime security and-----

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Naturally, but in conjunction with that, it is very important that we build up our own expertise over time in order that we end up in a situation where we are not overly reliant on external consultants for advice, notwithstanding the co-operation with other countries that is necessary. Is there anything more Dr. Stanley would like to say?

Dr. Margaret Stanley:

No, you have given me a great opportunity and the many questions posed have covered everything I was hoping to be able to say today. Overall, I would emphasise again that the work we are doing will hopefully mark the beginning of a process to improve our maritime security and will provide a roadmap to having better national and international co-ordination. By enhancing our maritime domain awareness and protecting our critical undersea infrastructure, we will have an improved situation overall, which will help to protect the national security of our island.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Obviously protecting our fishing industry is also important in that context. On behalf of the committee, I thank the witnesses for their engagement this morning. We will suspend briefly to allow our witnesses to leave and then we will go into private session.