Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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We are grateful to members for attending. I know some of the Senators are caught in a vote.

We will engage with representatives of the European Foundation for the Improvement of Living and Working Conditions, Eurofound, which I am happy to say is located in Loughlinstown in the Dún Laoghaire constituency. That only adds to its credibility and augustness, in my opinion. We will wait for its representatives to come in and then we will start.

I will have to step out in a few minutes. I propose that Deputy Robert O'Donoghue take over as interim Chair when I do so. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I am delighted to be joined by members of Eurofound: Mr. Ivailo Kalfin, executive director, and Ms Cristina Arigho, senior communications manager. They are both very welcome. I thank them for taking the time to join us today. As Eurofound is the only EU agency based in Ireland, we are particularly delighted to have them here, and in this year, because I remember celebrating its 50th anniversary with them at Loughlinstown just a few months ago. It is wonderful that they are here. The work they do is very important. I congratulate them and their team on everything they have done to bring Eurofound to where it is and on making that important milestone of 50 years. The committee will talk about its work and the first findings of the European Working Conditions Survey 2024.

I am obliged to read a note on privilege and some housekeeping matters. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such recommendation.

Members are equally reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. We do not have anybody joining online at this juncture so I do not think I need to read out the constitutional requirement to be inside the precincts of Leinster House.

I invite Mr. Kalfin to make his opening statement. I have explained that he will have five minutes. We will then go to members who have questions and go through a questions and answers format thereafter. I will have to step out, but Deputy O'Donoghue will take the Chair. Excuse me, but I will be back. I call Mr. Kalfin.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

Thank you very much, a Chathaoirligh, and honourable members of the committee for the invitation and the opportunity to present on the work of Eurofound. As the Chair said, it is the only EU agency working in Ireland, but it is also one of the first European agencies. Fifty years ago, it was an Irish idea to start developing the agencies. This was how the European Foundation for the Improvement of Living and Working Conditions was created. The European Centre for the Development of Vocational Training, Cedefop, currently based in Thessaloniki, was also created 50 years ago. It was the idea of the first Irish Commissioner, and later President of Ireland, Dr. Patrick Hillery. That was also an Irish initiative. It is why we are here.

We have worked for 50 years in four particular areas.

This is in our founding regulation. It has been renewed once but the areas of competence remain the same. This is everything that happens in the labour market and developments in employment. We recently have been following developments with digitalisation and the introduction of artificial intelligence to the workplace, what happens with the different new forms of work such as platform work, for example, and how work is organised in terms of working arrangements. In recent years we have also zoomed into sectors that are of particular interest where we see considerable shortages of labour. These include transport, construction, agriculture and the ICT sector, where they are struggling to get staff. We arer trying to find the answer as to what is happening in these sectors, what is eventually going to happen, what could be expected and what possible measures could be taken. This is the first area, employment and developments in the employment market.

The second area is working conditions, and everything in the world of work. We have a methodology that has been around for 30 years and is widely recognised in respect of the quality of jobs. This methodology could be applied at national, regional, company or sectoral level to show what is important for the workers in the workplace and what could attract and retain them. This is the European working conditions survey the chair mentioned, which we conducted in all EU member states in the last year. We have started disclosing and analysing the results. If there is an interest, I would be more than happy to tell the committee more about the findings because they are extremely interesting.

The third area is living conditions, or everything that happens with citizens outside of work. It very much has to do with public services and the support they might have outside of work. In recent years we have zoomed in on some very interesting sectors such as housing, people with disabilities, different vulnerable groups, young people including those who are not in employment, the ageing workforce and what happens when workers and employees grow older. These are the areas we are researching. We collect data in all EU member states so our research allows for a comparison between all EU member states including Ireland and also to zoom in on some particular landscapes such as the gender divide, the urban-rural divide, or different income brackets and how people fare with that.

The fourth area is social dialogue. We are probably the only EU institution that is dealing with the social dialogue between employers and workers at European and often national level. Those are our four areas of competence.

The agency comprises about 100 people from 21 European countries and is based in Loughlinstown, south Dublin. We have quite a large management board but I think this is of value for the agency. We are one of only three tripartite agencies in Europe, which means our board includes representatives from every member state, including representatives of government, employers and workers. Of course, in the case of Ireland, we have on the board representatives from IBEC, ICTU and the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment and the Department of Social Protection. This is the Irish representation on the board. That makes it quite large with 27 countries and three representatives per country, plus the European Commission, European Parliament, other agencies observing and so on. However, it works very well and there is a good modus operandi. We publish about 40 reports annually. We are a research agency, which means that we stop when we deliver our research to the decision-makers, that is, people like the committee members and their peers. We are not into producing or creating policies. Of course, when we research a subject, we might have some policy points and might focus attention on some particular good experiences or not so good experiences of some member states. This is material for the decision-makers to have an informed discussion and make informed decisions afterwards. Our very clear role is to support decision-makers, who then move on and make the decisions. We publish around 40 reports every year and along with all the other publications such as articles, policy briefs and working papers, this comes to 150 publications. It is quite active. We are a public institution and there is no paywall, so everything is publicly accessible through our website. We are very happy to work with our stakeholders, including governments.

We work not only with the main European institutions but also at national level with the presidencies. We are already in contact with the Irish EU Presidency preparing in our area of work whatever are the priorities chosen by the Irish EU Presidency. If we have research or are ready to conduct some particular research on a priority area, we would be happy to provide briefings, data and information. This is what we are doing for the Presidencies on a regular basis. We are often invited to present at the European Parliament on different topics. If there were an interest, we would be happy to present to the Oireachtas on any issues, whether housing or other topics that would be of interest. This is also something we do on a regular basis.

I think I have just gone over my five minutes. I am happy to take questions.

Robert O'Donoghue (Dublin Fingal West, Labour)
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I thank Mr. Kalfin. Members are reminded that there is a strict five-minute time rule for questions and answers combined so that we can facilitate everybody getting one round at least. Deputy Ó Murchú has indicated.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome Mr. Kalfin. He said his organisation deals with the individual Presidencies. I assume it is dealing with every institution within Europe. I am curious about how the engagement works. I get it as regards stakeholders such as IBEC and ICTU. On the engagement from Government, the whole point is that Eurofound is looking at best practice throughout Europe and ensuring we have some element of streamlining. There is a huge body of work, from employment rights through to social inclusion. Talking about disability alone, there are added costs relating to that which make things very difficult. Can Mr. Kalfin give us an example of where Eurofound has enacted policy, policy it is working on at the moment or policy the Government is failing to deliver upon? I would be delighted to hear that piece.

We have a changing economy at present with the growth of AI. Everything is absolutely digitalised, or at least should be, but we also have the issue of remote working and cross-Border working. We have a very particular issue here in Ireland where sometimes people cannot take up remote work if they are coming from one jurisdiction, North or South. It is a particular issue here but it is an issue right across Europe. There is probably a lot of it happening without anybody declaring it but we know the issues in respect of tax and so on. I think there is enough on Mr. Kalfin's plate there. I hope the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach will allow a certain amount of flexibility.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

I thank the Deputy for the questions. On how we work with governments during the Presidency, usually during the Presidency every government will have something in the pipeline, whether legislation or something like that. Each Presidency also has freedom in different areas to choose topics they would like to highlight. Usually, this happens at the informal Council meetings.

We are mostly working with the Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council. The European abbreviation is EPSCO. The Presidency decides what the priority will be for the formal meeting and what it would like the ministers to discuss. The other possibility for the Presidency is that it will usually organise a ministerial-level conference on some particular topic, inviting the others to participate. How do we participate in that? Usually, for the informal EPSCO meetings we prepare a brief and very often, we are invited to kickstart the discussion, presenting that brief. There is then a discussion between the ministers, social partners from Europe, etc. The conference is more or less the same. Again, we prepare the background papers and if needed, we are ready to present them in order to set the scene. As an example of topics, the current Danish Presidency is interested in cross-border mobility and in the general mobility of people. What we do is prepare, present, and feed the discussion. The Polish Presidency was focused on ageing workers.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is not an issue that has been absolutely sorted out.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

Which issue?

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The issue of mobility. Particularly for remote workers.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

No. This is a general discussion. Incidentally, on mobility, we presented a joint briefing together with a specialised agency, a European labour agency, that is looking at mobility in Europe. It would like to have its mandate extended to include external mobility, that is, the labour migration which comes to Europe. The agency specialises in this area and we worked with it on this particular issue. We worked before with the Hungarian Presidency on disability and the policy for people with disability and integration into the labour market. I mentioned before the Polish focus on the ageing population. These are different topics that the Presidency considers important to it. Whatever it is within our area, we are happy to provide the data, comparisons and material in order to feed the discussion which happens at ministerial level.

In terms of remote working cross-border, this is a very good Irish case. Ireland is very much ahead of the other countries in terms of remote working. Remote working is, in our job-quality matrix, becoming more and more important, especially for younger workers. Salary and wages are important up to a certain point where basically one can pay one's bills and have a normal life. Then we ask the different age groups what is important for work. Young people are very much focused on income and salary. However, the more one advances in one's career, the more we see people asking for a better work-life balance. Remote work is key for work-life balance, along with flexibility in working times and possibilities to get training and not work nine to five in the office. We have a lot of comparative data from different countries, which highlights how important remote working is for the workers. By the way, one of the reasons certain sectors, such as the transport sector or the construction sector, suffer labour shortages is that it is very difficult for them to have remote working. One has to be on-site there but there are other solutions that could be applied.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I welcome our witnesses and as the Chair did, congratulate them on reaching such a great milestone of a 50th anniversary.

In terms of the context of the challenges that we all face, evidence-based research is more important than ever. Before I ask a couple of questions, I want to first touch on the types of engagement to date with the Oireachtas and Departments, as well as other social partners. How can they be strengthened? Could Mr. Kalfin give his views on whether and how that engagement can be strengthened?

In terms of engagement with the European institutions, does that include the voice of local and regional authorities, the European Committee of the Regions? Can Mr. Kalfin give me examples of types of engagement he has had with that institution, and also, obviously, the European Economic and Social Committee?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

I thank the Deputy the kind words and congratulations on our anniversary. We appreciate it.

Especially in the case of Ireland, we have very good dialogue with both social partners and the Government. This is the second time that I have had the possibility of presenting the organisation to the committee. The last time was before a previous Legislature. We are available whenever the committee is discussing these points. This morning, we hosted a Senator who is working on housing and he said it will be very interesting to hear what we find during the discussion. He was asking about good and bad examples of housing policy and accessibility of housing, etc., in different countries. These are things that we can do. If there is a particular subject in our remit, we will be more than happy to provide a brief or if needed, to present the findings so the committee can have a good discussion.

At European level we work often and very well with the European Economic and Social Committee, that is, with our stakeholders. The committee has employers and workers sitting there. We inevitably work often with them. Every year, we have several joint initiatives, including last year's. We work to bring on board the candidate countries in terms of social dialogue and participation in decision-making. Yesterday, we had a major event for our 50th anniversary in Brussels, and we heard an address from the next president of the European Economic and Social Committee, Mr. Séamus Boland, who comes not only from Ireland but from the civil society organisation. He is chair of the civil society group and we had a very promising discussion with him. He made a great intervention. There are many possibilities-----

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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In the context of the European Committee of the Regions, has there been any engagement-----

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

With the European Committee of the Regions, we have had much less engagement although we have been invited. On some issues such as, for example, housing. we can go on a municipal level across Europe and say what is happening there. That would probably not apply on all subjects.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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My time is limited. I have a specific question. As I chair the Oireachtas transport committee, I wish to zone in on what data is telling Eurofound about labour and skills shortages, particularly as they relate to transport.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

We will be very happy to share what we have on that with the committee.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Can Mr. Kalfin verbalise some indications-----

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

When the Deputy says "verbalise", he means about figures. I am not sure I can go into detail as since last year, we started zooming in-----

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Headline trends is what-----

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

The headline trends indicate there is a problem. The shortages are due to the motivation of the people working in the transport sector. In most of these cases, this is not due to the salary any more, because the salary is pretty good. It also is not the skills - very often we say skills are the solution - because there are opportunities to be skilled. The problem is interest and making the area attractive. This concerns work-life balance; the possibility of working on a more flexible basis, which could be done, for example, with more flexible shifts. When we ask, for example, if workers have the time for something private during working time, if a child is sick, for example, can a worker afford one hour? Usually they say no, and that is a huge stress for them.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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To finish, are there particular sectors that are really showing a challenge in terms of that skills and labour shortage, such as transport or healthcare?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

Transport, healthcare, agriculture, construction, ICT and healthcare show that challenge. With the exception of ICT where the reasons are different, all the other sectors show it is because they are not attractive. People do not want to work in these sectors because of different factors, mostly work life-balance, work intensity and working-time arrangements.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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As Chair of the transport committee, if there is data Mr. Kalfin could share with the committee-----

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

My pleasure.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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-----it would be much appreciated. There might be a short document he could send.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

We will.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses are very welcome. The housing situation was mentioned. It is a challenge right across Europe but particularly acute in Ireland. We have heard surveys from different organisations on the challenge facing those affected. Clearly, there is a problem in that area of work. I presume Eurofound, as an organisation, does research in relation to it. What way is it fed back into the various jurisdictions in that regard? Is it unique? Are there particular lessons that should be given to one country rather than another or is it right across the board, right across Europe? In some countries it is not the same challenge it would be in others. We have less than 5% unemployment. That is a challenge in itself. If we are talking about attracting a skills base into Ireland, one of the challenges, of course, will be where those people will live. Could the witnesses expand on how Eurofound feeds that research into the Government? The Government is part of this, so how does Eurofound and organisations like it feed that research in?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

Housing is very much a national issue because there are distinct national policies on housing. In recent years, because it goes across the board in every member state, it has gone to European level. Frankly, the European institutions do not have many tools to intervene in this, although there will be a housing strategy and, in October, discussion among the prime ministers on housing, etc. Eventually, there will be European funds that could be directed into housing. All this goes there. What our research shows is that there are some national particularities that cannot necessarily be taken from one country and transferred to another. Good examples in housing policy are Denmark and Austria. When we talk about good examples - and this is a conceptual thing - we do not talk only about supply and demand because that is very often the thing: let us supply more flats, which are of course needed very much, or let us increase the demand. Sometimes the subsidies for demand just add to the prices and the prices go automatically up so it does not help very much with affordability. However, in the countries that have much fewer problems with housing there is kind of a middle way also. There is social housing which is partly financed by private investments, partly by public investments. If it is a long-term policy then you see - and Austria is one such example - much less pressure on the housing market. In Denmark they are doing something else. They have an obligation in each new building to have a percentage of the apartments, for example, left for social purposes. This is also in order not to make ghettos with people on low incomes. That also works, and of course they have affordable prices to live there. You always ask from these families or these people to work and to pay for this, but that is much more accessible. These are some of the examples. Again, it is difficult to say, "This is a good example; let us apply it everywhere", because it does not work. I will give the committee an example with Ireland. In Ireland, 90% of the people live in houses and only 10% live in apartments. In Spain, this is the opposite: 88%, I think, live in apartments and a little more than 12% live in houses. It is much easier to build compounds with apartments than to build houses if you are to solve the issue but, again, this has to do very much with preferences. In Germany people very rarely own houses; they rent, and they have no problems with the rent because it is foreseeable. They can rely on the fact that the rent will not go through the roof. There are some regulations on that. People do not own houses the way they do in other countries. There are very different national practices. Again, it helps creating the national policy on that.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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One of the challenges in this city, although not exclusively here, is that large companies are buying up properties for their employees. Is that a challenge in other jurisdictions? Again, does Eurofound make recommendations in that regard or does it just note it? What is the pathway for concerns that people would have about something like that? I refer to the fact that the local population is priced out of the market and so on. That is happening in this city, as I said, but not exclusively here.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

This is one of the possible ways to address the housing crisis. When employers really need workers and those workers cannot come because they have nowhere to live and cannot afford the prices, this is what employers will do. This is probably a kind of solution. At the same time it creates some other problems. The problem is where to weight it because then the worker becomes dependent on the employer. If you lose your job, you are going to lose your house also, which creates other types of problems with motivation and efficiency at work etc. Certainly, this is one of the ways to address the issue. Probably, where companies look for staff and cannot pay the salaries those staff could get in the free market, they would address that. I do not expect that this is a solution that could solve all the problems. This is one of the possible solutions, again creating some additional problems.

Robert O'Donoghue (Dublin Fingal West, Labour)
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I congratulate Eurofound on making it to 50. As an ex-data analyst, I agree with Deputy Murphy that data-driven policy is definitely the right way to go. Could the witnesses talk generally about two areas and whether they have done research on them in the past year? On productivity, has Eurofound made any recommendations regarding improving productivity in the EU with the likes of the effects of finishing off the Single Market for services or the 28th regime from the Draghi report as to how that might improve productivity or scalability of companies? Has Eurofound made any recommendations or done any research on how we can best navigate through changing employment sectors across the bloc, given headwinds like the Trump tariffs?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

We do research on productivity and we currently have a major project on AI and productivity, including AI at work and productivity and how this works. It is based on the case studies. We are asking companies across Europe with that experience. Normally, we address productivity from the point of view of the labour supply. I mean the labour as a production factor. What we see is very interesting. By the way, recently, we published a report that found that in the past 30 years there are 30 million more jobs in Europe, so the job creation is very high. At the same time, there are 10 million fewer people of working age because of the demographic factors. That gap of 40 million is practically filled currently with more women working, with a higher working age and people retiring later, as well as migrants to some extent or part-time work or something like that. The other thing we see is that two thirds of the European economy is already services. This is a growing trend. Last year, in the automotive sector, there were massive lay-offs of staff. Here is the problem. Because the European services sector makes up two thirds of the economy, the increase in productivity is twice as low as in the US services sector. I would look at the industry sector and the services sector separately. This has to do with working conditions and the quality of work in order to make the work attractive. Again, it is not always, and I would say very often is not, related to the pay. Of course the pay has to be decent, but then there are other factors to attract people. The other is going outside of our area. People will say that, for example, in financial services or commercial services you would see much more regulations that make it difficult for small companies to work on that, but this is something which is not exactly in our research. We look at the labour and the motivation of people to work efficiently on the job.

Robert O'Donoghue (Dublin Fingal West, Labour)
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My brother was one of those lay-offs last year. That is where my question comes from. I thank Mr. Kalfin for his response. I appreciate it.

Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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I thank everyone for the presentation. I congratulate them on the foundation's anniversary. I apologise as I will have to leave shortly because I am speaking in the Chamber but I do have a couple of questions. The Eurofound website has a breadth of information. It has some interesting information I was not at all aware of such as reports on monitoring access to services for children and their living conditions. My question is on Eurofound’s remit. It intersects between the government sector, businesses and trade unions. How much of its role is proactive? Is it its job to act as a service provider to those different sectoral interests to give governments, businesses and trade unions the information they need or is it precluded by its founding charter from being more proactive? I say this coming from a journalistic background. These days there is rarely even a subeditor on a newspaper. Is there a way of spoon-feeding journalists to get some of this information in the public domain that would put pressure on governments in a separate way as well as showing the EU is responding to people’s needs?

When will Dr. Marie Hyland’s presentation from yesterday on housing affordability and sustainability be available for others to look at?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

To start with the second question, it will be available today or tomorrow. It will be online.

Ms Cristina Arigho:

Yes.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

If the Deputy needs additional data or something deeper, please let us know and we will be happy to provide it.

On the first question, that is the way of work of Eurofound. We are a tripartite institution. We cannot make different research for the different stakeholders; we make a single piece of research. That is why it must not be biased; it must be objective. To ensure this objectivity our work programme is adopted by the management board, by all the three groups of stakeholders, so they know what we are doing. We keep them informed. It is very transparent. We have advisory committees so with every report we produce, prior to publication we consult with them. Of course, we insist on our independence. When we are factual and objective it is difficult to say something is not the case because we can speak on the facts. Practically, that information being objective and non-biased helps all three of them. We have a process, which is very transparent and inclusive, so they participate in the whole thing. That is why we are well received by the three parties.

Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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Does Mr. Kalfin think that information is being shared widely enough?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

No. We live in a world of information coming from everywhere, including partial, not complete, misleading, disinformation, etc. Ms Arigho is behind our communications and information. It is very difficult to present objective, sometimes not very spicy and non-biased information in this world of any type of data but we are trying to do our best, including through our website, which I think is very easy to use and a very good source of information.

Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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I thank Mr. Kalfin.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Does anyone else want to come in? I do not know if I am correct in this perception but I perceive the European Union to probably be the best place in the world to live and work, maybe including Canada. There are lots of places in the world that have factors that are better than ours but on the whole it is a very positive place. First, am I wrong about that? Second, what is the greatest threat to that? What is the thing that we should be looking out for that would endanger the positivity of the work and the work-life balance environment of the European Union?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

That is a very good question. I will try to it all squeeze in. To us, the European way of working and living is part of the European competitiveness because when we speak about retaining European citizens to work here and not go somewhere else but also to attract talents and people who are competent to come and work in Europe, they would not come for the service - they cannot have it every way - rather they come for the standards, the health standards, access to education, to healthcare, how they can raise their children here, etc. The whole model of living and working in Europe is attractive currently. The Chair is absolutely right that Europe is an attractive place. Probably some say it is not competitive enough but in attracting talent, it is probably at the top of the competitors list. The big challenge there is to keep exactly that. That is why we are trying this ongoing debate in Europe about competitiveness. It should not be at the expense of the values and standards of Europe. If you decrease the standards you will probably compete with some countries where standards are less attractive but you will not be more competitive in general. If you want to be a place that attracts people, and I am thinking again about the human factor in the work, Europe has to preserve this. Looking for competitiveness, Europe is still the largest economy in the world. There are issues that apparently need to be addressed to increase competitiveness but the standards of living and working in Europe are definitely attractive and if we do not want to lose our talents they need to be there. They have to do with many of the initiatives on the quality jobs and anti-poverty. I will not go very much beyond that. In our research, including the working conditions survey, we see a trend, which is a constant trend of 30 years, of improving living and working conditions in Europe. However, we have to look beyond the average numbers because we see pockets of marginalisation in Europe in the background of overall improvement in conditions where we have people who are stuck in some unfavourable situations whether due to housing issues, low salary, health or things like that or because they live in a region that is not developing. According to our research, that has to be the focus because what happens is that these groups of people, although not that large, are a strong factor to decrease political stability in countries and we see this across Europe. All the anti-establishment movements are very much fuelled by people who are not happy with the way they live and work. It is not that they are very far left or far right or whatever, they just do not want to have what they have. It is very important to address these pockets of marginalisation if we want to have a more coherent tissue of society. I would say that is the bigger challenge.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Kalfin. He mentioned a list. I am sure there are lots of different lists with different criteria. What are the next countries or regions of the world that are occupying that space where it is a positive environment for working and living?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

We do not have research across the world, although we co-operate very much with the International Labor Organization and some other international organisations. We have been invited to present at the G20 when the Brazilian presidency was there. Some colleagues in the Latin American organisations are also presenting on cohesion and convergence policies, especially the regional policies in Europe. We would not say we have an overall view but what we see with the flow of migrants, for example, in places like Australia and New Zealand are quite attractive for work and also Canada. The US is much less on the scale.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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And getting worse.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

Yes. That is how it is. Europe still has a perfect place to keep building on that because it is really an attractive place for people who have skills and talents.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Kalfin. Does anyone else want to come back in?

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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We know that in Ireland, if people have a disability, they are less likely to have a job. Has Eurofound done research on that, and pathways to remove those barriers, across Europe? If it has done that research, how does that go into the political debate and particularly impact on governments which, ultimately, are the ones that will have to remove those barriers to those with a disability?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

It is not only an Irish problem; it is a problem across Europe. We have some good practices but this is a problem for people with disabilities across Europe. As part of my personal experience in my home country of Bulgaria I was dealing with these issues at one point. The whole concept in many European countries is wrong. I am not talking specifically about Ireland but am making a general point about what is happening in Europe. The concept is based on providing more means to people with disabilities and their families but actually there is a spiral of effects. When there is a person with a disability in a family, the whole family suffers because they cannot properly work, their income is lower and so on. What is the solution chosen by many countries? They just increase different benefits for people with disabilities but that does not solve the problem. The good policies, where we see them, are those that integrate, that take people with disabilities out of their homes whenever possible and make them socialise. When they meet other people, they try to work so this is very much related to existing affordable and accessible public services including good transportation, adaptation of workplaces, training and addressing particular needs. In the countries that are very successful in this area, it is done through all of the available public services rather than through benefits and simply providing more money. The final goal is to socialise people with disabilities as much as possible and not to leave them at home to fight with their disabilities and their problems. Disability is a problem for the whole family. Another big issue is the care of these people. About 80% of the European population is involved in care and in most cases, this is care for family members. Think about the time devoted to that. If it could be organised differently, these people could be really valuable to the labour market

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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We are told that it is a priority of the Government. In Ireland about 1 million people are impacted when we include family members of people with a disability or people with an age profile that means they require care. It is a huge issue for society. If we want social cohesion and to move forward in an inclusive society then clearly we need to be addressing this as a matter of urgency.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

We published a report recently on people with disabilities. If the Deputy has a particular interest in this, we are happy to share it.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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To move to a different issue, there were media reports today about a high turnover of workers in the Irish workplace, with large numbers of people changing jobs. Is there research on why that is happening? Approximately three out of five workers are changing jobs. In some cases, it is because of promotion or moving sideways but there is huge fluidity. Is that normal or is it unique to Ireland?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

I would say this is the new normal across Europe, especially after Covid. Many people changed their work after Covid. People realised that they were not bound to their work. They started to exercise preferences, choosing work, life balance and so on. During Covid, there were general subsidies for the hospitality sector, for example. After Covid, those people who were receiving wage subsidies disappeared because they did not want to work in that sector any more. The interesting thing is that they did not go on the live register but became self-employed, working in the platform economy delivering different services part-time and so on. This is where they went. There is a huge shift in preferences in the type of work people want. For young people, this is already very high on the priority list. They want to be more independent, are willing to change jobs and less willing to make compromises in the workplace. Of course, this is helped by the very low unemployment levels. It is relatively easy to change jobs but the demands and expectations are very high. This is the legacy that we are going to have to live with post Covid. It is not something that will change. In general, people are looking for much more autonomy, for work, life balance and the possibility of flexible work and they will change company for this.

Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I just want to go back to a statistic mentioned by Mr. Kalfin. Did he say that 80% of people in Europe are caring for disabled people in some capacity?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

Yes..

Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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That is huge.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

Yes, it is huge.

Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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It is far higher than the percentage in Ireland. It is four times the Irish level. I accept the fact that we have not done enough for people with disabilities and those who care for them but I find that statistic quite shocking. I would welcome a deeper dive into that information.

I advocate a lot for older people and for keeping them in their homes for longer. Will Mr. Kalfin outline the general situation in Europe in that regard? What percentage of older people are in nursing homes? Is there the same issue in Europe generally with regard to caring for and housing our older people? Are there any examples of best practice?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

First, we have to deal very carefully with statistics. When I say 80% I refer to 80% of people of working age but I do not mean full-time care. People might go to work but after work they have an elderly family member to take care of. They might have parents they have to visit, prepare dinner for, give medication to and so on. The 80% statistic refers to any type of care, not just full-time care. I agree that it is a huge figure.

We conduct a lot of research into care work. Very often it is unpaid, even if it is not within the family. We have people who are caring for people in other families. This is work that is not regulated. There is no working time, no holidays, no fixed salary and so on. Countries deal with this very differently. There are social policies and national priorities and they have developed over time, with different approaches taken to elderly people. There are some countries with a lot of nursing homes for elderly people while in others, that is not the norm. In my country, for example, there are some nursing homes but culturally it is unacceptable to send one's parents to a home. Those who do so are often working abroad or something like that and cannot look after them. It is part of the mentality of the people that they have to take care of the elderly. There are very different experiences in the member states but I would not say that there is a model that is excellent and that could work everywhere. We could share some research on that with the Deputy. We recently published a report on ageing at work, which is also a very interesting. It contains comparisons between countries. The key is to adapt the workplace and the working conditions, including working time, work intensity and so on, allowing elderly people to use their brains rather than their physical strength. That pays off.

Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I tend to agree. We have people who are aging but who are not ready to retire. They do not want to retire and a few simple tweaks to their working conditions could make all the difference. I very much believe in handing down experience and if we are not very careful, we could end up with a knowledge gap which will be difficult for the next generation. I would welcome any further information that Mr. Kalfin could share on that.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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On the issue of sharing information, I ask the witnesses to share documents with the committee rather than with individual members.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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I have one question on research in the context of migration. How important is it that workers feel welcome? Has Eurofound looked at that issue? There is a narrative in some countries, which I can name if necessary, which holds that foreign workers are a burden, a danger, suspect, different and so on.

Has Mr. Kalfin done research on that? What are the recommendations that are going through the structures to the various governments and policymakers in that regard?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

We did some very partial research on migrant workers, the ones that are coming from another country. We did it together with the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights last year and it was mostly focused on Ukrainian refugees. That happened to be a good example because what we saw there was that most of the ones within working age were looking for a job. The problem was knowledge of the language. They were eager to find jobs, which is not always the case with others. Without making a general survey on that, we found that the environment is very important. Of course, they are refugees from war, so that is not so much a free choice as to whether they stay or go, but again, in order to be productive, which is what they wanted to do, the public perception was very different. For example, in Poland, which is a neighbouring country with millions of Ukrainians, they felt very much at home. People were hosting them in their homes when they were fleeing the war, which is not the case in some other countries. By the way, Ireland is one of the good examples. I can think of other countries in Europe that were extremely negative vis-à-vis refugees. The thinking is that when you are a labour migrant, you do not go for just a while. You do not go somewhere to work for one or two years and then come back. You go for good. You go with your family. You want to settle. You want to stay there long term and this is the quality worker that countries would like. Then there should be acceptance. These people are not coming just to do some job and to produce some value; they are coming with their families. If you look across Europe, there are plenty of examples, such as the Turks in Germany, many Indians and Pakistanis in the UK and the Maghreb people in France. They came at the time of the industrial revolution when labour was needed, but they came to stay. They came with their families and now they are very much part of society. That has to be taken into consideration because very often migrant workers are wanted to do a particular job. They are very much needed, but then the public has to accept that it is also a larger commitment than the employer's one.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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If nobody else wants to come in, I will ask a couple of questions. Mr. Kalfin talked about marginalisation and how that is one of the issues that is affecting the overall quality of the work environment. Could he elaborate on that a little bit, such as, in the context of Ireland, where the specific marginalisation is and what we can do about it?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

Basically, Ireland is a good example of where you can make this distinction. For example, there is a huge difference between urban areas and rural areas, especially vis-à-vis housing prices. In rural areas, across the board, in all ages, about 10% of people have difficulties with housing. In urban areas, it is many times more than that, which impacts one's whole life – the living conditions, what kind of work you do, how you live, etc. This is very clear. I am not sure about the data in Ireland - for example, for job quality - but we see a general improvement of physical conditions, for instance, and the psychological conditions of work, which are very important. At the same time, women are reporting much more mental abuse and mental health problems at work, with aggressive language, etc. Another lens we can put on is on different sectors and different professions, again thinking about mental health and support at work. Stress is much higher in professions that have more direct contact with customers, in trade and transport, etc. The stress is much higher and there is a much bigger effect on women working in these sectors.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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So people in customer-facing roles have higher stress levels.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

Yes, much higher.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I would have thought it would be the opposite.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

No, it is much higher than in other areas. If you do not meet customers, the stress is much lower. You could go by gender and by sector and then you would find that there are pockets but the biggest problem for workers is housing. Ireland is far from being the worst case in Europe. I know that housing is a big issue here but if you go to Spain or other countries, they live for more than 40 years with their parents because they cannot afford housing, which means they do not have a family or good job. They are not making their career and life plans in the country and they are looking to emigrate all the time. The accessibility of jobs is also a factor. Marginal groups of people are very far from that. Ireland has an increased employment rate, so there are many more people at work and I imagine many more workplaces have opened. At the same time, the poverty levels stay the same, which means there are many people working but they have difficulties making ends meet. That is one of the questions we ask. We ask about the ability to pay bills and whether people expect to have problems with that in the next three months. Again, we see regional differences and country differences, mostly for young people living in rural areas, in particular in sectors like the agri-sector or the construction sector where there are more uncertainties. When you have uncertainties, these people are affected. They are not productive at work and they start to think about different things. This is also how political changes happen in these groups.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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What is Mr. Kalfin's experience of the gap between employed people and self-employed people, given the number of protections for employees that do not necessarily extend to people who work for themselves or even as employers? Is there a gap in the quality of life or the employment conditions between those two groups?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

There is a difference. Quality of life and quality of work are much harder for the self-employed. This is a freedom that we have. We have people who do not want to be part of a big organisation. They have to have the flexibility and freedom to organise themselves but they have more challenges – more stress, more intensity, more responsibilities, much less time for holidays or weekend redress, etc. It is very clear that exists. It is positive also to have social welfare. This is a free choice, but they have more stress.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Is there a public policy we should be pursuing to address that gap or is there something Mr. Kalfin would recommend?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

I would not say so because, again, this is a free choice. There is a big debate in Europe and probably also in Ireland about, for example, particular professions such as platform workers that we see delivering food, Uber drivers and so on. The big question is what is their status. Is the person employed or self-employed? Although there is some recent European legislation, it is totally unclear because the platforms say people are independent. A student might decide to work for three hours a day and that is absolutely fine, but the problem comes when the person has to take the financial responsibility for a family and, instead of working three hours a day, works ten hours a day with the same employer and has one single source of income. It is hard to say such a person is self-employed. Practically, it is an employee, but without the rights of an employee – social security, job stability, etc. The questions start in this transition area. On the other hand, we have professions that are traditionally self-employed, like interpretation, translation, many IT experts, etc., which is fine. That is okay. I would not say they should not be. It has a price – more challenges, more stress and a worse work-life balance - but it is the price of the free choice.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I call on Senator Davitt.

Aidan Davitt (Fianna Fail)
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I have one brief question. I am sorry for being late but I got held up. We had a lot of votes in the Seanad earlier, which is the reason I was in and out. The presentation was very interesting. I thank the witnesses very much. It is very good that the committee organised this session.

In relation to illicit or illegal drugs, we see this as quite a large problem in Ireland. In Mr. Kalfin's opinion, is it a bigger problem or causing more social problems in Ireland than in other countries across Europe?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

Again, addiction is a problem we touch upon very marginally. There is a specialised European agency on drugs, which researches the issue in detail. Where we have something to do with it is when we speak about the inactive population, the people who are not in the labour market, and marginal poverty groups. We try to see what the problems are and what needs to be addressed for these people to get out of these particular groups. This is the lens we have. I will not say it covers drug addiction comprehensively because it impacts-----

Aidan Davitt (Fianna Fail)
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Does that cohort seem to be larger in Ireland or is it comparable to peers in Europe?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

Unfortunately, I cannot say. I do not have hard figures. We do not compare them.

Aidan Davitt (Fianna Fail)
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I just thought the foundation might have come across the issue in its research.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

Drug addiction is a problem across Europe. It is not only an Irish problem. Anecdotally, I can think of countries where the problem is much greater.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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If I may, I will ask Mr. Kalfin about mandatory retirement. There is a lot of debate about pension ages and things like that. Particularly in the public sector, not just in Ireland but elsewhere in Europe, mandatory retirement ages are being implemented. That results in a loss of institutional knowledge and, as Deputy Butterly was saying, sometimes people who would love to continue working are forced into retirement. How does Mr. Kalfin feel about that? Is it something we should be looking at again from a public policy perspective?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

This issue has different intensity depending on the dynamics of the labour market. When unemployment is high, there is big pressure to let people retire, not work and stay at home in order to have places for others. In periods like now, when there is a clear shortage of people, there is a lot of interest in these people. Retirement is a right. It has to be people's decision to choose to take up this right. Government policy can then facilitate people who have reached retirement age to remain engaged in work through fiscal policy, taxation and so on or it can choose not to facilitate them. This is how to follow the labour market developments. In any case, in many sectors, using the capacity of elderly people for longer is very positive and brings value because these people are usually not very demanding. They do not ask for the highest salaries, promotions or a billion perspectives. They want to be used properly. Of course, life is changing. Some of them have problems with new technologies and things like that. Finding the right place for people with capacity to be involved in work is much better than sending these people home or on cruises around the world and not allowing them to contribute to the economy.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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On a cross-European Union basis, does Mr. Kalfin see enlargement as an opportunity or as a threat? Does it create any difficulties from the point of view of the overall employment experience or employment satisfaction of Europeans? For example, if we were to admit a new country in the coming years, it would contribute to the overall statistics and may well lower them. I do not know. Is that something Eurofound considers or comments on?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

We have an eye on that in our particular section because we have expanded our research on some topics into the candidate countries. I refer mostly to the western Balkans but most recently we have also included Moldova and Ukraine when they got this capacity. The Cathaoirleach is asking somebody who comes from such a country. My country joined the European Union-----

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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We were too, although it may have been a long time ago.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

Ireland is a case study of 50 years. From 2007, we have a bit less than 20 years' history and are still considered a new member. This is a fantastic opportunity and an absolute win-win. On the labour market, there is lots of labour mobility, which is to the advantage of the older member states. Quality skilled people are coming because of not only better salaries but better living conditions, public services and so on. To look at the economic dynamics, I mentioned the creation of jobs and the percentage made up by the service economy. Productivity in the new member states is rising faster than in the old member states. Again, although I say "new member states", having 20 years' history, they are not so new. There is still this process of catching up. This is positive for these countries. While they are losing some of the labour as people go somewhere else and may not return, their economies catch up and go further. I am not touching on the political or security sides but, from the purely economic side, longer term enlargement is very positive and would represent a win-win.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I hope Mr. Kalfin does not misunderstand me; I am very much pro-enlargement. I think it is good for everybody involved. I am just wondering if there are aspects of it we need to plan for in advance. Mr. Kalfin is happy that it is a good thing across the board, particularly for the labour market.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

Yes. We should keep in mind that the labour market is also open to the candidate countries to a large extent, so labour mobility already happens before they become members.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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That is not for all of them, however. It is just for some of them.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

It is not for all of them. There are some restrictions on some of them but it is much easier than for somebody coming from another continent or somewhere else.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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The accession of Romania and Bulgaria in 2007, as an example, came with restrictions for a period.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

Yes, but these two countries' accession was an exceptional case. It did not happen before. It did not happen for Croatia, which joined later. It does not necessarily happen. I would not say it makes a big difference. In Bulgaria, the big outflow of immigrants was after the Communist regime fell in the early nineties. There was then a small peak around the time of Bulgaria becoming a member of the European Union but it normalised very quickly. On labour mobility, especially when we now have labour shortages and workers coming from wherever, workers from candidate countries are much more welcome than workers with totally different backgrounds.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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In Eurofound's experience of being an EU agency in Ireland, has it had any difficulties in the last 50 years?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

We are blessed with having excellent relations with the Government. I do not say this out of politeness or because I have to but because it is true. There are around 50 agencies across Europe. We meet and we have a network. I see the problems other agencies have. Countries very much want to host agencies but then plenty of issues begin. We work very well with the Irish Government in terms of buildings and technicalities. We work with the OPW although we do not have many dealings with it. We have 15 or so a year. We also have very good co-operation with the different Departments and the social partners.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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That is good to hear. Does the foundation have any difficulty in attracting staff?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

There are lots of candidates. Some people are turning down offers. They go to competitions, win and are invited to take up a role but then say they looked at the housing market and decline the invitation. There are such cases, although not too many. Otherwise, there is an interest in working for the agency.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Does being in Ireland inevitably mean that the agency has more in the way of Irish people being interested in positions?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

This is a question for all of the agencies. Normally, when an agency is hosted in a country, more people from that country work there. About one third of our members of staff are Irish. Out of 100 people, about 30 are from Ireland. Nobody every raises this issue. Of course, they are in different departments but, for example, we have departments where texts are edited and, for that, your mother tongue needs to be English. This is a basic element of production. We have people dealing with facilities and it is more than normal to have Irish people there but we also have Irish people in research and in management. Ms Arigho is also Irish. In some other agencies, more than 50% of the staff are host-country nationals. We are a pretty balanced agency.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Does being in Ireland mean that Eurofound engages more with Irish agencies or Irish entities than might be the case across the European Union?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

Yes. That is a fact because we feel at home here.

The agency is trying to be very active in the public domain. We try to be active in the community. We have open days and we participate in different community-----

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I have seen that at first hand.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

Yes, we had the honour to have you at the open day. We have different initiatives. Now there is Open House Dublin for period buildings and in October we are going to open our Loughlinstown house for the public to come to. Last week we hosted Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council because it is doing something about the history of the county. We try to be very active not only with the institutions but also with the local community.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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It is fair to say there is a tangible benefit to Ireland from having the agency here, as there would be for any other country that has an agency in it.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

We are also part of the European debate, together of course with the Government, the European institutions here, the rep offices but also with the European Movement Ireland, the Institute of International and European Affairs and different think tanks. We try to fit into this whole debate about what Europe is, what Europe brings, etc. We host schoolchildren as well to explain these things. We consider ourselves to be part of the Irish debate and Irish community here and we are very happy with that.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Great, thank you. I have a final question. What aspects of Europe-wide political policy do you find favour with and is there anything you would like to criticise? In terms of the work you do, is there anything you think we should be looking at as a committee?

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

From my position, being in this very high place, it is difficult to criticise the institutions. As I said, we are not decision makers. The challenge is to have a balanced approach, which brings me to your previous question. For good reason, preparedness, competitiveness and defence are very high on the agenda. The challenge from our point of view is it should not be done at the expense of the European way of living and working and taking care of improving further this environment. I think nobody says we are going to compromise this, but again when you make some priorities it is always good to balance that. The expectations from Europe I see are much higher than what Europe could deliver sometimes. I mean, Europe was never a defence body and now defence is somewhere on the top, probably for good reason. These are new areas that will probably take time. Balance is needed in order to follow them. We are very much attentive to our area and living and working in Europe should remain a priority because it is, at the end of the day, about the European citizens.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Thank you very much. Does anybody else want to come in on any other point? Deputy Crowe does.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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We talked earlier about how there is so much information and research going on that it is hard to keep abreast of it. We had the Chair of the transport committee here earlier on. This is the European affairs committee and if there is research it would be really useful if Mr. Kalfin's agency fed it into us. I do not know if it happens but if there is research on transport or housing there are Oireachtas committees that would be really interested in whatever research the agency is carrying out. It would be a good idea to look at that as an agency feeding into the Irish system. It would be really useful for us all.

Mr. Ivailo Kalfin:

We would be more than happy to do that and we are doing it to the extent possible, but if there is more interest we will be more than happy. We are in Dublin. We are next door if there is some more information other than our research. If somebody is interested they are very welcome to our premises in Loughlinstown. We are happy to provide additional information, clarifications, etc. The dialogue gets much easier. We are absolutely open and willing to do that.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, I thank Mr. Kalfin.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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No one else is indicating. We went on a deep dive but I really appreciate both officials coming in and giving us the benefit of their experience and expertise. It was a very interesting and informative session.

I record the apologies of Senator Mullen, who is away on Oireachtas business. We will go into private session to discuss the business of the committee. At our next meeting we will engage with the European Committee of the Regions.