Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Eamon Scanlon and Senators Diarmuid Wilson, Robbie Gallagher and Tom Clonan.

The joint committee is meeting today in public session with the Reserve Defence Force Representative Association, RDFRA, for an update on issues in the Reserved Defence Force. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Eugene Gargan, president of the RDFRA; Ms Jo McCarthy, vice-president of the RDFRA; and Mr. Neil Richardson, general secretary of the RDFRA. They are all very welcome.

I also welcome to the Public Gallery Isabella Goodall Turner, intern for the office of the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond.

The format of the meeting is that I will invite Mr. Richardson to make an opening statement. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member has a seven-minute slot to ask questions and for the witnesses to respond.

I wish to advise members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member participating via Microsoft Teams that prior to making a contribution to the meeting the member formally confirms he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Both members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in a such way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, members will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Lastly, as the witnesses will probably be aware, the committee will publish the opening statements on its website following the meeting. I now invite Mr. Richardson to make an opening statement on behalf of RDFRA.

Mr. Neil Richardson:

On behalf of the Reserve Defence Force Representative Association, I sincerely thank the committee for the opportunity to appear before it today. During this appearance it is our intention to discuss a number of key areas of concern for the Reserve at this time.

At present the Reserve is undergoing the implementation of the Reserve Defence Force regeneration and development plan, which was launched in July 2024 and incorporates 27 actions designed to revitalise the Reserve, improve recruitment and retention, enhance the resourcing and training of the Reserve and integrate the modern Reserve into the wider Defence Forces. Ultimately, the goal is to implement the stated the Government policy of creating "a Reserve Force that can seamlessly train, operate and deploy to support the [permanent Defence Forces], nationally and internationally" as per the Defence Policy Review 2024.

The 27 actions contained within the plan cover a range of initiatives that seek to turn the Reserve from what was in the past a strategic Reserve where quantity was the main focus into a refined and more regularly utilisable, meaningful force multiplier for the Irish Defence Forces. The positive impact of the RDF regeneration and development plan became visible almost immediately. Some 270 new recruits were inducted in 2024, representing a 300% increase on the previous year's figure. At the start of 2025 it looked as though the Reserve was finally on an upwards trend after more than a decade of serious decline. However, literally in the past number of weeks, a serious issue has arisen that threatens to reverse the recent positive developments. In 2023, new pay Reserve guidance documents were published and approved by military management with the Department of Defence's support that allowed in essence for all Reserve activities to be paid. This had the expected outcome of improving Reserve activity levels and training and operational outputs, since, on the simplest level, reservists would now receive some form of reimbursement for any military activities that they undertook. It meant that internal Reserve unit administration and staff work activities undertaken by individual reservists to maintain their operational readiness in support of the wider Defence Forces, such as annual fitness tests, annual firing ranges, etc., any recurrency training and crucially, all recruitment activities, could now be paid. Previously, these were undertaken in an unpaid capacity, which meant that all costs associated with attending these activities were actually borne by the individual reservist. The new pay arrangement provided a huge boost to retention and was a major step in supporting both implementation of the RDF regeneration and development plan and stated Government policy for the Reserve. However, at the start of this month following direction from Department of Defence officials, military management was required to issue a new guidance document on the subject of Reserve paid activities. In brief, a significant number of Reserve activities, including all of those previously mentioned, are now to revert to being unpaid. This has caused significant alarm among the members of RDFRA.

The Vote 36 Defence allocation for 2025 is €1.021 billion. Defence Forces' pay accounts for €569 million of Vote 36 but subhead A5, Reserve Defence Force pay, only accounts for €3.5 million. This means that Reserve pay equates to 0.34% of Vote 36. That is one third of 1%. It is important also to note that subhead A5, Reserve Defence Force pay, currently has a lower allocation than it did in 2013 and that was during a financial crisis. In that year, the allocation stood at €3.9 million but was then reduced to €2.15 million from 2014 to 2019, before reaching a low of €1.65 million in 2020. It then rose to €2 million in 2021 and 2022, €2.05 million in 2023, €2.35 million in 2024 and now €3.5 million in 2025.

However, even this year's allocation falls short of the 2013 figure and before inflation is taken into account the Reserve has experienced a net funding decrease over the past 12 years. Furthermore, on top of this already minuscule financial allocation for the Reserve, we are now additionally experiencing the curtailing of paid activities out of that tiny budget. This move, undertaken at the request of the Department, is somewhat paradoxical, as in 2023, due to increased activity levels following the implementation of early actions arising from the Report of the Commission on the Defence Forces, the Reserve utilised all of its initial budgetary allocation and was provided with a supplemental allocation of €189,000 toward the end of the year to cover the shortfall. In 2024, due to the 300% increase in recruit inductions already mentioned, the Reserve exceeded its initial annual location by €863,000, which was again supplemented by the Department of Defence. Why therefore, having seemingly supported Reserve growth in recent years via the provision of supplementary budget allocations when needed, would the Department then suddenly request that a whole raft of Reserve activities revert to being unpaid? To be clear, the Reserve was and is only being paid for military activities its members physically perform. There is no regular salary, retainer fee or gratuity involved. The Reserve is therefore an extremely cost-effective force.

From the association's perspective, this very much appears like a reactionary measure designed to prevent the Reserve from exceeding its initial annual budget again. The simple fact is that the initial annual Reserve budgetary allocations over the past 12 years were not designed to support a growing Reserve, rather, one that was experiencing a net strength decline year on year, or at the very least remaining static. To reiterate, this year's allocation is less than what it was 12 years ago and represents one third of 1% of the overall Vote 36 allocation.

Separately, just after the start of this year, responsibility for Reserve matters was placed under a new branch within the Department of Defence. We have met officials from this branch on three occasions this year, the last occasion being two months ago, both to discuss matters of Reserve importance and to seek to advance positive measures for the association's membership. For example, we have sought to implement the payment of security duty allowance for members of the Reserve who undertake such duties. Currently this is only payable to members of the Permanent Defence Force, meaning that when a permanent and reserve soldier undertake such a duty side-by-side, only the permanent soldier receives the allowance.

In the medical sphere, we have sought to increase the maximum amount a reservist can be reimbursed for completing an annual medical with their local GP. It is currently set at €56.73. Most GPs charge far more than this, meaning that reservists must currently pay the difference out of their own pockets to complete this mandatory medical each year. These two issues are seen as important retention measures. It is worth noting that the RDFRA has been pursuing these issues for years, eight years in the case of the GP medical issue. However, it was required to recommence representation on these issues in 2025 with the new Department of Defence branch, due to a lack of progress previously. We have also been seeking to obtain approval to represent reservists in the First Line Reserve, which is an element of the Reserve comprised exclusively of former members of the Permanent Defence Force and who have no representation at present. We have also been seeking to amend funeral regulations to permit deceased reservists to obtain military funeral rights in line with their permanent counterparts. Implementing these latter two requests has no cost implications whatsoever. However, for all of the engagement we have had with Department of Defence officials at these meetings this year, there have been no tangible outcomes. On many of the topics raised, the RDFRA has been informed again and again that the resolution of an issue is nearly there or almost across the line, only to be provided with the same comments at subsequent meetings. Therefore, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that these meetings are box-ticking exercises in empty consultation and that there is no real desire to address the issues affecting our association's members.

Conversely, it is worth highlighting that the one Reserve matter on which Department of Defence officials did seek to bring about a definitive result this year was Reserve pay, and that was at no point raised with or discussed with RDFRA in advance of actions taken. Matters relating to pay, allowances and gratuities payable to members of the Army Reserve and Naval Service Reserve is quite literally the first topic on which RDFRA is permitted to make representation as per the relevant ministerially approved Defence Forces regulation, and the Department did not even inform us that changes to pay were coming.

Omissions such as this do not help dispel the fear amongst reservists that, at the back of it all, they are really thought of as second-class soldiers and sailors who do not need to be kept in the loop about matters that impact them directly.

Aside from these issues linked to the Department of Defence, the association has also had less than satisfactory engagement with the Defence Forces’ office of strategic HR. While this office is responsible for implementing a wide range of HR measures, part of these include the creation of targeted new appointments that benefit the Defence Forces in various ways. Examples of this include the creation of a staff for the new Defence Forces joint induction training centre in Gormanston, and indeed the creation of the office of Reserve affairs, which was responsible for producing the RDF regeneration and development plan.

However, despite repeated representations from RDFRA, the office of strategic HR – while having implemented a significant number of new Permanent Defence Force appointments across the force – has not brought about the creation of a single new Reserve appointment. The Defence Forces transformation management office has no Reserve appointments, nor does the office of strategic HR itself. The joint induction training centre has no Reserve element, and, ironically, the office of Reserve affairs also has no formal appointments for reservists on its staff. It is supposed to, but while permanent appointments in the office of Reserve affairs were created several years ago, the dedicated appointments for reservists there remain outstanding. It sounds ridiculous that the Reserve appointments in the office of Reserve affairs were never created, but it is sadly accurate. If the Defence Forces are serious about integrating the Reserve, why are reservists excluded from certain key offices or is the creation of such appointments delayed by an inordinate amount of time?

In conclusion, RDFRA wishes to make a statement which is perhaps obvious. It is simply not possible to grow, train, utilise and retain a modern military Reserve force while expecting its members to perform a significant portion of their service for free. In what universe is it fair to expect women and men to train to meet the standards expected of the modern Óglaigh na hÉireann reservist, and then serve meaningfully in that capacity, on top of maintaining their civilian career, all while being scolded by the Department of Defence for looking to be remunerated fairly for that service? To be crystal clear, that remuneration is sought primarily to cover the ancillary costs of actually being a reservist, because otherwise Reserve service comes at a net loss to the individual, and who in their right mind is willing to accept that? Therefore, the RDFRA is requesting that, to make the Reserve both more attractive to join and credible in its utility to the State, reservists should be paid for their service to the State in all of the forms that takes. There are a small number of sections in a single Defence Forces regulation that, if amended, would make this a reality.

I thank the committee and would now like to invite any questions that members might have.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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That is very useful in terms of reforming the question.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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If possible,could we get a copy of that letter if Mr. Gargan has it to hand in order that we have it in front of us? While Mr. Gargan gave a very good reading and explanation of it, would that be possible?

Mr. Eugene Gargan:

That is no problem whatsoever.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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That would be great.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I will go first to Senator Craughwell, followed by Deputy Stanley and then Deputy Duncan Smith.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I welcome the members of RDFRA and thank them for that excellent presentation and update.

I wish to put things in context if I can before I ask any questions. I was involved in, not RDFRA, but in what was the FCA back in my time. For the members of the committee who are not familiar with what went on at that time, on a Tuesday night in Galway where I lived, every crossroads had people standing in uniform to be collected. It was not just Galway city but Shrule, Headford, Carraroe, Carna and places 20 or 30 miles from the barracks. We had training on Tuesday nights and on a Sunday we had field days with firing range or various other exercises taking place. In order to save €40 million during the financial crisis, we shut down all of that. The representatives of RDFRA can correct me if I am wrong, but if lived in Belmullet and wanted to be a member of the Reserve, the nearest barracks are Finner Camp in Donegal, Dún Uí Mhaoilíosa in Galway or Custume Barracks in Athlone. In order to attend parade in any one of those, I would have to get myself there. There is no transport to bring me. There is no CQ operating in any major town. I remember there was a CQ in Kilrush and another in Gort. There is no CQ, transport or staff in any of these places. I am unsure, and our witnesses might be able to fill me in on this, as to whether or not there is a PDF officer allocated to specific units of the RDF.

For €40 million, we destroyed a voluntary system that had a proximity to the Defence Forces that provided a constant stream of cadets for officer training and personnel for other ranks or enlisted personal training. That has dried up and it has destroyed recruitment in the Defence Forces. I welcome the opinions of our witnesses on this though I may not be able to hear them as I have a call coming in that I have to take. However, I will be back.

I wish to discuss the pay issue and particularly the information about €92 a day that has come out over the past few days. The Department has offered an explanation which to my mind is unacceptable. Mr. Gargan mentioned the business case. I had a debate yesterday with the Minister for public expenditure and reform. Any Department in this country can promise anything it wants but the Department of public expenditure and reform will make the final decision on the business case and if it does not stand up, one gets nothing. The question I have for the representatives of RDFRA is why should there be a business case? If a recruit is in uniform as an orderly officer, a guard commander or a private soldier on duty over the weekend, why should they not be paid at the same rate as their PDF equivalent? I go back to the 1970s when FCA people came in on permanent contracts and were filling in vital roles because of the Troubles.

Nobody said they could not be paid. They were paid. We were talking about this with a number of people yesterday and I agree that FCA people who came in for a fortnight's camp were never treated as peer equals, whereas FCA people who came in on a long-term contract were treated as peer equals. I wonder if that has changed because that has something to do with the mindset that allows what has just happened over the previous few days. There was an undertaking given that RDF personnel would be available and utilised for overseas service and other services outside the norm. Has that happened and has there been any engagement on that? On the cost of the medical, it is outrageous that people who want to volunteer their service must pay in order to get a medical to do it. If we are genuinely serious about recruitment, we should at least provide a free medical, which is extremely important.

I am interested to know the difference between the Reserve Defence Force and Civil Defence. We had representatives of the Civil Defence before the previous defence committee and it is actively recruiting. It seems to have a fairly strong recruitment line. Is the problem that Civil Defence still exists in most villages around the country whereas the Reserve Defence Force has been pulled away? I gave the Belmullet example and I apologise to the Chair as I did not deliberately pick Belmullet. It is just such a remote place.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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A beautiful remote place.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I am interested in that question.

There is one more issue I want to touch on briefly. On the issue of the most senior officer in the Reserve, I am of the view that we should be able to get at least one brigadier general and a couple of colonels out of the Reserve. If we were serious about it and regarded the organisation as a peer equal to the PDF, I do not see any reason why there could not be an RDF brigadier in charge. The witnesses spoke of the membership of the Reserve unit within the Defence Forces and within the Department. What would be so wrong with having a pair of red tabs on an RDF member in that situation?

The last one I have is about the call-up for duty. The PDF is stretched. There are soldiers doing duties two and three times a week. How much utilisation of RDF members has there been to carry out normal barracks duties and normal security duties? Has there been a take-up there? If there is, please tell me the duty allowance is not withheld if you are up on a weekend doing guard duty or acting as an orderly officer or something like that. That is it and I have to go and take a phone call. I will come back.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Does Senator Craughwell wish for those questions to be addressed now or will I go onto the next speaker and wait for the Senator to come back?

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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If the committee could go on, I will be back within 20 minutes or half an hour so could we delay the answers until then.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Others might raise similar questions and we will wait for the Senator to come back to address them.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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I welcome Ms McCarthy, Mr. Richardson and Mr. Gargan. They are very welcome and I am delighted they are here because I have raised the issue of the Reserve Defence Force a couple of times. A few things have been a revelation to me. We were given figures that showed the strength is down to approximately 940, is that right?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

No, Deputy, it is approximately 1,700 but we have seen growth in recent times.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Okay but compared to what it used to be under the Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil, it is a fraction of that. I have a couple of questions. The paper the witnesses supplied was very good. It is a revelation in that the total budget is 0.34% of total defence spending. The allocation for Reserve pay of €3.5 million, which is 0.34% of the overall spending of the defence budget, shows it is a low priority. I am trying to understand the amount of time that is involved and what is typically expected of you in terms of time, training, travel, deployments and security duties, which are mentioned in the document. Could the witnesses outline that in a couple of sentences? Our time is short and I do not want to be abrupt because of that. I have a number of other questions.

Mr. Neil Richardson:

I can take those and give a response.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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If he could be brief to give us a picture of what is expected.

Mr. Neil Richardson:

That is no trouble. It takes approximately 26 days to train a reservist to the minimum level. It takes 26 days to train a person who is a recruit to a two star private level. It takes another 26 days to get them to what is called a three star private. At that point, they are considered a fully trained reservist and they can go for a whole raft of other courses. The key point to make is that our minimum training requirement annually equates to approximately 12 days in terms of hours. That is the bare minimum a reservist needs to do but a vast majority of reservists will partake in an awful lot more training, courses or duties, as we discussed earlier. The average is approximately 50 and sometimes 80 days for particularly active reservists. At that point, it is really about how much a reservist is able to commit but the minimum requirement is approximately 12 days per annum, with 26 days to get trained in the first instance.

We note the White Paper on Defence produced back in 2015 only allocated seven paid days per annum to every member of the Reserve. That is where the budget came from or started in 2015. However, the initial entrance course is 26 days and under the White Paper, we were allocated seven paid days each. It does not even cover basic training. The fact our numbers are beneath our overall establishment meant there was a funding allocation for other activities but if we had a 4,000 full-strength Reserve, the budget technically only covers seven paid days per annum and it takes 26 days to become a reservist.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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I will ask about the typical activities because obviously, recruits and members have day jobs. Are the tasks mainly performed at weekends? What are the demands?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

It is a mixture of evenings, weekends and one- or two-week blocks.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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The security duties are at barracks around the country?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

Exactly. On the security duty point, a lot of reserve outposts or training centres closed in recent years, as Senator Craughwell mentioned. For a reservist to come to a location where they can engage in military duties, it is a significant drive for some, all at their own expense. When they are actually undertaking this security duty, they are not in receipt of the additional allowance that members of the Permanent Defence Force get.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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There is no allowance for travel or anything like that?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

No.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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On the target the Department, the Government and the higher echelons of the Defence Forces have, what strength do they wish to bring it to?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

For the Permanent Defence Force, it is 11,500 and for us-----

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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What about the Reserve?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

-----in the Reserve, it is 4,500.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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The target is 4,500 and at the moment it is at 1,700.

Mr. Neil Richardson:

We have 1,700 members, correct.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Okay. The Reserve is approximately one third of the way there. There is no regular salary, no retainer, no gratuity or anything like that. Only duty is paid. Years ago, if you worked with fellas who were in the FCA as it was then, they would go away to a camp every year. It was typically during their work holidays and they would go to camp for a fortnight. Is there still that fortnight block every year? Does that still happen?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

That still takes place. It is less common that it used to be. Unit camp is a recurrency event. Individuals engage in recurrency training whereas now, most seven and 14-day blocks are formalised courses where reservists are learning a new skill as opposed to engaging in recurrency for stuff they have already learned. As a notion, camp has drifted away in recent years and has been replaced with conducting courses over these seven or 14-day blocks. It is a very similar set-up and model.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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On tasks, typically the Defence Forces are brought in at times of crisis, such as severe flooding, storms or major security events. Is the Reserve called up in those situations?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

Absolutely and it regularly is. I will briefly mention some of the things reservists have done in recent times. They have transferred critical patients during extreme weather events. We were widely used during the Covid pandemic in testing centres, either as support staff or conducting swapping. We have cyber defence reservists who take part in cyber coalition exercises.

There are reservists involved in Defence Forces research and innovation. There are professional mariners who serve in our Naval Service Reserve. They take their external qualifications and apply them in that sphere. Recently, we had a reservist deploy to Cyprus as part of an overseas mission to help train Ukrainians in demining as part of the EU military assistance mission. We are now at a point where reservists are engaging in quite high profile activities in support of the State and widespread day-to-day tasks in support of the Permanent Defence Force.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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I will move on to the Department's position and the Minister's position. The Tánaiste's intervention was obviously welcome. It is a pity it took RDFRA's appearance here this morning but it is worthwhile coming. If that could even get moving because sometimes, these things move at glacial pace. It is worthwhile and a welcome step forward. Hopefully, that can bear fruit.

We received a document from the Department which was a letter of instruction. It sets out the situation with pay. It stated in 2023, the Defence Forces issued a letter of instruction relating to such payments. The letter of instruction was regrettably not consistent with the regulations and resulted in payments being made for activities for which there was no provision in the Defence Forces remuneration or sanction for payment. It basically says this was an error. I will not read the whole document as I do not have the time to do it. I will drop it up to the Cathaoirleach in a moment but this is the important bit. It states the Defence Forces are considering the position and if they wish to extend the number of paid activities for the RDF, any case made will be considered by the Tánaiste and Minister for Defence. This is the normal procedure. While work is ongoing, the Defence Forces are working on possible solutions for members of the RDF. In that letter which I only received this morning, it seems to say they are trying to do something in the interim.

In terms of how we can help, the committee might make representations to the Department of public expenditure because, as one of the other speakers said, it holds the purse strings. The cake is only so big and I know that. Obviously, funding has to come from somewhere and it cannot be pulled out of the sky. We are talking about a very small amount of money here for the service that is being provided. I raised the Reserve before because I feel it is an area we have not given due attention or credit to as a State and a country. I said this in the witnesses' absence so I am telling them what I think about it. As a committee, it would be useful for us to make representations to both Departments and to the Tánaiste on the witnesses' behalf, if the committee is agreeable to that.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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We will finish at that but I will take that letter and proposal to write to the Department of public expenditure and the Tánaiste on the back of today's hearing.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in this morning, for their submission and for the material update that was provided at the start of the meeting. In relation to the regeneration and development plan and the initial success of its implementation in terms of recruitment, were there targets within that plan as to what were the expected levels of recruitment? There was a 300% increase and 270 new recruits, which is positive, but was the Department aiming for 10% or are there any details on that?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

What we were looking for and what was sought in terms of targets and figures and what happened in 2024 more or less matched perfectly. The initial seek in 2024 was 300 new recruits and we got 270; just a little bit shy. In the first year of the implementation of the regeneration and development plan, recruitment was tracking perfectly. We do not have final figures for this year yet but the plan was working in the previous year, which is the first full year of figures we have.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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I know there are not final figures for this year but is there a sense that it will be a similar trajectory this year?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

Our current figures are from a couple of months ago now so they are not entirely up to date but we had tracked approximately 100 at that point. However, they are a couple of months old. Broadly speaking, we are not in a position to know exactly where we are until we hit 31 December.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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It will likely be more than that anyway.

Mr. Neil Richardson:

Absolutely.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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It will be a substantial number again, showing success in attracting new members into the RDF. I will use a word and it may not be the correct one but it would seem from his statement that the Department was caught off guard by this and the move to cut pay or reduce allowances was a correction being applied versus the success of the recruitment, which is again paradoxical. As Mr. Richardson said and is worth amplifying from the highest possible rooftops, the RDF is a pay as you do organisation. There is no lost money there in any way, shape or form.

On the budget requirements and the negotiations, has the RDFRA put forward a pre-budget figure for what it wants to see in the upcoming budget allocation in the Vote? Is there a figure we need to see to match, notwithstanding we do not want to see the allowances cut either. However, in terms of pay and the overall amount, what are we looking at?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

It is actually military management who handle all matters of budgetary projections. Obviously, they will communicate that with the Department of Defence and between them, that will go forward. It is outside of the scope of our representative association to make that kind of pitch. However, we have done our own statistical analysis on what an active Reserve looks like in terms of cost. If you take the average of an active reservist doing approximately 50 days per annum and apply that to the current number in the Reserve, the 1,700 active reservists we have, it equates to approximately €8.5 million - that is assuming every reservist does 50 days. That would be a very active Reserve. The reality is it is anything between where we are now, at €3.5 million, and €8.5 million as an absolute upper maximum at this point in time for the Reserve.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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That is really helpful for us to know as a scale of what we should be looking at. Obviously, it would be great if in two weeks' time when the budget comes out we are at that upper limit. It probably will not be, given the 12 year spread we have seen in terms of Mr. Richardson's statement. I have a question about the military service allowance and duties a PDF member would do compared with the exact same duties an RDF member would do. Could Mr. Richardson expand on examples of that and where the RDF has perhaps been left behind?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

The military service allowance is not payable to members of the Reserve. That is a generic military service allowance and it is not payable to us. We do not receive that.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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But the RDF does the same duties?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

Security duty allowance is actually separate from military service allowance. They are two different allowances. We will do security duties alongside members of the Permanent Defence Force. A reservist comes into a barracks, they are on guard for 24 hours and they then finish their guard duty. A Permanent Defence Force member doing that 24 hour guard duty will receive a security duty allowance at a particular rate, which is dependent on the day of the week and a couple of other factors. The reservist does not get that at present. The security duty allowance budget for the year is covered under a particular subhead and it is a known quantity because we know that ten officers or ten sergeants etc. will be on duty across the country every day. That should be a known, quantifiable figure. If the Permanent Defence Force sergeant is not doing the duty and is not fulfilling that role and a reservist sergeant comes in, that duty money put aside in the budget does not get paid to the reservist individual so it is just returned. However, the budget is there and the allocation is set aside so we are not seeking additional budgetary allocation for that. We are just seeking to be allowed to be paid from the existing subhead.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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Paid for the work that is done, basically.

Mr. Neil Richardson:

Precisely.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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That is a very fair, basic principle of work. My final question is not one I planned but it is a result of one of the earlier responses. Cyber defence and cyber security is an area I am trying to get my head around further. Mr. Richardson mentioned that some RDF members would have duties in that space. How are RDF members selected or put forward for those duties? Would they have had expertise in their personal life? Is there a budget for it in the RDF for training up X amount of RDF personnel for this? I am very interested in that.

Mr. Eugene Gargan:

I will take that as the Deputy mentioned cyber security and I have a background in cyber security myself from a previous role I had. As there are so few who are expert in particular areas, the selection is all based on their civilian qualifications. Sometimes, there are issues about the equivalence in a particular role they go to in a military context.

There have been issues in the past in that regard, although I cannot recall them off the top of my head. We discussed with military management the recognition of qualifications and their equivalents on the green side of things. They are few in number but they are experts on the basis of their civilian qualifications. They are highly prized from the point of view of the Defence Forces. While I do not wish to speak for our sister representative associations, in the context of the retention and staffing issues in the PDF, in order to fill vacancies within the organisational structure of Óglaigh na hÉireann on the permanent side, there is a growing realisation and recognition that where there is expertise available through the Reserve, it will be sought and procured.

For example, there is a mechanism in place to seek expressions of interest. That is circulated through the Reserve and there is due process for selecting them. It is quite small, however. We are proud that we have a small number of experts on overseas missions. They tend to be either in CIS roles, which are IT-related, or roles that require them to use their linguistic expertise. It is things of that nature. It is generally where there is a challenge for the PDF to fill those appointments from within its staff.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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It is really encouraging to hear that the RDF is looking and seeking whatever expertise it has in this area of such new challenge. That is brilliant to hear.

Mr. Eugene Gargan:

Our policy is to seek to encourage colleagues in the Reserve to go forward for that. For example, we see overseas services as being pinnacle of our service to the State, notwithstanding the challenges in getting there. We could probably get into that on a separate day. For Reserve members to operate seamlessly and integrate into overseas missions, everything has to be right for them, including their physical fitness. They have to pass medical tests, complete all the courses and be properly qualified. In addition, they also have to be available from their civilian work. As a result, there are a number of different challenges. Anyone who goes on an overseas mission is a tremendously dedicated individual and has sacrificed an awful lot, usually in terms of his or her salary. Often, the expert reservists who go overseas earn an awful lot more in the private sector than they do working for the State, but they do it for their own reasons. They do it in service to the State and Óglaigh na hÉireann.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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When those individuals go overseas, what are they paid?

Mr. Eugene Gargan:

They are paid according to their rank. Often, the individual is paid many more times that, so they are kind of taking a hit on their income when they go overseas. There are many other challenges and issues regarding employment legislation and employment protection that we did not cover in the submission for today. We have more urgent issues. That is a long-term challenge in the context of growing, opening up and making the Reserve available to people to serve without concern for their day jobs.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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The next speaker is Senator Seán Kyne. He will be followed by Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses here. Their appearance here may move matters along. I welcome the Tánaiste’s letter to the RDFRA this morning. Certainly, as a consequence of the witnesses’ appearance at this committee, members of the committee will be raising these matters in both Houses in order to try to make progress and get answers. That is an important aspect.

In the context of barracks like Dún Uí Mhaoilíosa or Custume, for example, is there a cap on the numbers that can come in or turn up?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

Essentially, it is based on the size of the Reserve unit that is there. Dún Uí Mhaoilíosa Barracks, Galway, has an complement of 133 personnel. As long as the number does not exceed 133, it can take them on the books. Clifden and Ennis Reserve units are nearby as well. The rule of thumb is approximately 130 personnel per barracks in those kinds of locations. In larger cities like Cork and Dublin, there are multiple units. Those barracks `can accommodate approximately 500 to 600 personnel from a Reserve perspective.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Basically, there is a physical or management cap rather than an endless budget. It is demand led. If the number of personnel at a barracks increases from 50 to 100, it involves a doubling of the budget. There is not an endless number.

Mr. Neil Richardson:

No. It is worth noting that the overall establishment for the Reserve is set at 4,069 personnel. Ultimately, that is the national cap that cannot be exceeded. There is a balance or check in that regard.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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That relates to physical personnel rather than any budgetary consideration.

Mr. Neil Richardson:

It is the number of people.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Yes, but it is not based on any budgetary allocation. Rather, it is based on what physically can be managed.

Mr. Neil Richardson:

That is correct. It is based on a strength establishment.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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The Department has given its views on this matter. It states that a letter of instruction was issued in 2023, which was regrettably not consistent with the regulations relating to the Defence Forces. There was no provision or sanction for payment. The error was drawn to the Defence Forces' attention. I am not sure who did that. I am not sure whether it came from the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation or elsewhere. Quite simply, what the RDFRA is asking is that the Defence Forces' regulations be altered and amended.

Mr. Neil Richardson:

In a nutshell, yes. To explain the sequence of events, new pay guidelines came out in 2023, which were drafted by military management - the military side of the house - with the support and awareness of the Department of Defence. This resulted in a budgetary overrun of €189,000 that year and a supplementary budget was provided for. It resulted in an overrun of €863,000 last year, but that was directly a result of a 300% recruitment increase. That supplementary budget was also provided for. Suddenly, in the past couple of weeks, there has been a retraction of that pay guidance. It has been replaced with something far more stringent that has caused quite a degree of concern and distress among members. We are trying to figure out the logical sequence as to how these decisions were made or how the directives were arrived at. It seems no one had a problem with the new pay guidance until all of a sudden there was a problem. We have raised this problem quite vocally. We now have an offer to remedy that problem via a change to regulations, which is more or less putting in place what was in place a couple of weeks ago. Realistically, the way to solve this once and for all is to change two paragraphs of Defence Forces' regulation R5 to include that we can be paid for legitimate military activities. This would remove any ambiguity about what members can and cannot be paid for. It would remedy the problem once and for all.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Richardson said that the RDFRA is trying to find out the sequence of events as to how this happened. Does he have any idea as to where this came from? Did someone within the Department of Defence identify issues with the budget or did this come from the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

Our only awareness of it is that the Department of Defence directed military management to make these changes. That is our understanding of the matter.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Mention was made of reservists being active 50 days per year. In a full, active Reserve, the maximum cost of that would be €8.5 million. Who decides whether it is 50, 30 or 20 days?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

Ultimately, the individual reservist decides what his or her availability is. Reservists have to apply to undertake military activity. It is not the case that they are simply allowed to constantly turn up as often or as seldom as they want. Some reservists have limited availability to engage. They might only have two weeks a year, as Senator Craughwell referred to earlier, or they may be in a position due to personal circumstances, whatever those happen to be, to be available for up to 50 days or perhaps even more. They apply to do this through various unit commands and receive approval in advance of undertaking those activities. It is not a case of going in every day and saying, “I am here now. Pay me”. This has to be approved in advance, and there is a control at a certain level. The actual number of days that a reservist applies or volunteers for is down to the his or her availability.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Are there individual caps at barracks level?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

There is no specific cap on the number of days a reservist could potentially complete in a calendar year. There is nothing to say that they cannot apply for more than a certain number of days per year. If they apply to do a certain course or activity, they could potentially be told it is not sanctioned. There is no maximum cap, however.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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What is the relationship with the Permanent Defence Force like, soldier to soldier?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

It is far to say there has been a massive cultural shift within the Defence Forces in recent years where reservists are now very well respected. They work hand in glove with us now. There is no distinction in the attitude of the Permanent Defence Force towards the Reserve. That is specifically down to what we do now. We engage in that patient transportation or aid to the civil power and civil authority taskings. We have people going overseas, which is sometimes seen as the ultimate benchmark of Defence Forces service. If we have personnel hitting those targets, it garners respect from the Permanent Defence Force. We work on a day-to-day basis with them or interact at least weekly. There was a “them” and “us” mentality or a distance that may have existed in the past when we did not interact, and therefore we were misunderstood. Reservists probably misunderstood the Permanent Defence Force as well. That is gone now. Culturally within the military, it is very positive.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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If the witnesses do not mind, I am going to ask some general questions to improve my understanding, and that of anyone listening in, of the Reserve Defence Force. My first question is fairly straightforward. Why do the witnesses believe the Reserve Defence Force matters?

Mr. Eugene Gargan:

Why do we matter? We are-----

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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To clarify, I know it is a very important function. I wish to give the witnesses the opportunity to explain what the Reserve Defence Force is doing and what it is capable of doing if it reaches its full potential.

Mr. Eugene Gargan:

Within the Reserve Defence Force, there is a pool of resources that are second to none spread out among our membership. I am not just talking about the representative association but among the Army Reserve and the Naval Service Reserve there is an enormous amount of talent, goodwill and availability. From a human resources point of view, there is that availability of resource to the State through a proper channel through Óglaigh na hÉireann. That is immensely valuable. The fact that we have in this State so many young men and women who are prepared to serve their country as a proper expression of the patriotism, in furtherance of their careers or for the sheer joy of service itself is remarkable. Any state that turns down such an offer like that is remiss and is missing out on a golden opportunity.

Our view is that our service has to stand on its own two feet militarily. We do not do this just for the sense of espirit de corps, the fun we get out of it or the job satisfaction, which is all part of it. We recognise we are a military force. We are all subject to military law when we are on a military base, barracks or ship or in uniform. We are also subject to security clearances before we join. We are vetted on our way in. We are also subject to random drug testing, for example. We have to achieve fitness standards and hit medical standards as well. There are quite a lot of conditions that we have to meet before we can even serve. While we are serving, we are subject to two sets of law - civil law and military law on top of that. There are very few other things that we can do as ordinary citizens where we are tasked to potentially be armed and to take life, ultimately. Thankfully, that has not happened. However, that is what we train for. That is ultimately what our utility is all about. Senior commanders can utilise the Reserve if they require us. That is why it matters.

The best military doctrine on this at this point in time, given the context of what is happening around the world, particularly in Europe, is that there is going to be a heavy reliance on reserves in order to flex the size of the military defensive capacity of a nation. We believe that we are far too small. Usually one would expect a reserve force to be many times the size of the permanent force. It is on its head in Ireland; it is the other way around. Our establishment is only a fraction of that of the PDF. As a representative association, we recognise that we need to walk before we can run. After decades of neglect and being run down to the size we are at this stage, there is a significant task in turning the organisation around organically. For example, recruitment over the past number of years has been the focus of a lot of attention, both politically and operationally. We cannot turn that around quickly. There is a capacity. We only have so many instructors. There are only so many resources available to train. We can only start to grow slowly. There is a challenge. Anything that gets in the way of that and cannot be justified, for example the reduction and elimination of pay for a lot of these undertakings and a lot of the work we do, is most unwelcome. That is why we are bringing it to the committee's attention. It was a long-winded answer.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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No, it was an excellent answer. I acknowledge the point about patriotism, and we see in other jurisdictions people talk about surge capacity but, whatever one chooses to call it, the ability to scale up is crucially important.

I wish to come to the pay piece in a different way. I apologise; perhaps I should know this. The issue of the nature of decisions people make occurs to me. There is the Defence Forces pay side of things, but there is also people's awareness of their entitlements and so on. Are the allowances that people receive for duties in the Defence Forces assessable for things such as the working family payment or social housing thresholds? These can be disincentives for people when they take on additional hours in any job. In the context of the Defence Forces, which are so important to the State, I can imagine someone saying, "Well I am getting this much from my job. If I do too much with the Reserve Defence Force or if I continue with it, I will lose my place on the housing list or lose my working family payment, or my wife or husband will lose their payment." Is that something the witnesses have experienced? Are the allowances assessable for some of those payments and entitlements? Does it act as a disincentive to people taking on additional duties?

Mr. Eugene Gargan:

That is not something we are aware of as being a major issue or hygiene factor for joining the Reserve. The Department of Social Protection considers a lot of the income that is paid to reservists as training. I do not think there is an interference in that regard, but I could be wrong. I need to check that out. However, in my capacity as a serving officer in the Reserve with overall responsibility for recruitment in my unit, the recruitment liaison officers, RLOs, under my command have not brought to my attention that this is a question or a problem for people who approach. I do not think it is something has arisen anywhere else. I cannot say definitively but I am not aware of it.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I imagine it would be coming up if it was.

Mr. Eugene Gargan:

The Department of Social Protection would probably take an interest in it, but I cannot speak for it.

Ms Jo McCarthy:

I wish to add that for the Reserve it quite different from the PDF. It is harder to track why people leave the Reserve as well. It could be personal circumstances. It may have come up but, unfortunately, we may not have been told.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have to leave the meeting temporarily, but I will be back for the second round.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I want to get a picture of how reserve defence forces work in other countries, their terms and conditions, how they are treated, the size and all of that. How is it different? If the witnesses were to pick one country that has got it right or nearly right, what country would that be?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

There are so many different models of reserve service out there in so many different countries that it is hard to point to a set of standardised principles for how reserves are applied. In our model, we are smaller than our permanent counterparts. That is probably the only thing we can point to that would not adhere to international best practice. Internationally, reservists or reserve forces are generally many multiples the size of the standing military or permanent force. This is simply because they are cost effective, and they are, as the Deputy referred to in his questions, a matter of scaling up. It is easier if there is a large number of reservists who can be called upon when needed. In some jurisdictions, reservists are considered to be part-time employees of the state. That comes with whole raft of additional financial incentives, such as pensions.

That is not the model we use in Ireland. Unfortunately, there is not a one-size-fits-all reserve model we can point to because every state out there seems to do it somewhat differently. A key factor that is quite universal, except in Ireland, is that the reserve would always be larger than the regular force.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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It is to increase the size of the Reserve but also to pay for the military work or actions that are carried out. I would like to ask about the number of women and what it is like to be a woman in the Reserve Defence Force.

Ms Jo McCarthy:

It is quite interesting that 12% of the Reserve Defence Force is female, which is double what it is in the PDF. The challenges are different, I suppose, but they are challenges and are welcomed. In the Reserve, there is the number of different qualifications across the women. It would be horrible to say "nurse" or things like that, but there are female architects, engineers, operations managers and managing directors within the Reserve Defence Force and they take on the strategic roles in planning and in the different types of exercises we have.

There are no real allowances made. There is a two-minute allowance in regard to fitness testing but if someone is out on the ground and a gun goes off, she does not have that extra two minutes to hit the ground. If you are on the ground with the Defence Forces, you go with them and you need to carry the same type of equipment and ensure your standards are up there. It is very funny if there is anybody in the platoon saying "I cannot do that". It does not matter who you are or what you are. You are moving with your platoon and that is it. In a civilian world, you do not get to experience the challenges the Defence Forces can put to you. I know myself from being the first in many instances that you have to pave the way. I was talking to the lads a while ago about Cumann na mBan. In a way, they were not really wanted but we would have been fairly stuck without them.

Also, from a reserve point of view, it is much more attractive to be a member of the Reserve as a female. It can be part-time work done along with raising a family or things like that. There are a lot more opportunities to be involved in that way, perhaps as part of a career break from the PDF as well. It is easier to slip into the Reserve, fill up that time, not lose any service and slip back into the PDF again. It is very good.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Where does the Reserve Defence Force do recruitment? What work is done in schools or other forums to encourage people to join the RDF?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

Recruitment takes many different forms. Often, it can be down to local factors. I know the Defence Forces had a fairly prominent stand at the ploughing championships recently so that is one of the larger events at which they will have a recruitment stand. They will recruit at the likes of air shows and any other sort of outdoor festival or event. Yes, there is engagement with schools. There is a pilot project that probably will come online in the relatively near future with third level institutions. That is a key demographic and area the Reserve is hoping to get involved with a little bit more. It is essentially down to local factors and where there are large groups of individuals who may be interested in either permanent or reserve service, the Defence Fores will go and pitch to them.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I will move to Senator Craughwell's point next, so he can continue with his question, as I thought it was relevant. If somebody in Belmullet or any other area wanted to join the Defence Forces, there are the practicalities for people who live far away from the bases joining.

Ms Jo McCarthy:

It can be very difficult, being a person from a town in west Cork. Twenty-five years ago, there was a unit in the town, but when the barracks were closed, everything went to Cork city. There was the likes of Cork city and then all the way down to Castletownbere, where it was very difficult to recruit. There is maybe a two-hour drive. so it is difficult.

One of the best things about Ireland is that it is rural and that is probably what saved us during Covid because we were not so apart from one another. That was the gift of the Reserve many years ago and now it has affected us badly where, rather than focusing on recruitment in the communities, we are now focusing on colleges. Many of the recruits at present are in their 30s rather than their late teens.

Mr. Neil Richardson:

It is worth mentioning that, in the past, there were a lot of supports provided for reservists to attend military activities. As mentioned by many here, there were a lot more RDF training locations around the country for local service opportunities. Military transport might have been provided to offset the personal costs of getting there and there were a lot more Permanent Defence Forces support staff assigned to the Reserve. Now, all of that is gone and there are additional requirements placed on reservists.

The recruitment process is far more rigorous than it was in the past. There are various medical or fitness testing stages that have to be gone through. Without getting too much into the weeds, that places a burden on the applicant to maintain and develop his or her fitness. That could come with a gym cost. The medical that has to be undergone can come with a personal expense. All of these ancillary costs exist all of a sudden now, so that at the end of a week, metaphorically speaking, a reservist is looking at his or her bank balance and finding there has actually been a net decrease due to having to attend all of these mandatory Reserve activities. That puts pressure on family life and on personal lives for reservists and the most dedicated reservist in the world will find it difficult to justify being involved in activity that is coming in at a net loss to him or her.

Mr. Eugene Gargan:

I will come in on that point and follow up on what my colleagues have said. I cannot come here today and not recognise that, in my own unit in particular, which is the 27th Infantry Battalion based in Dundalk, a significant number of the intake are recruits who come from the North, who have travelled across the Border to come down to train and become members of the unit. To me, that demonstrates an amazing commitment. It is not only just being available at the times of training and courses, but also ensuring they are qualified for it, meet all of the fitness and medical standards and are selected appropriately. There is a huge commitment by reservists that has to be recognised. They have to put up with everything. There are so many barriers to entry, it is quite phenomenal. In recent years, it would have changed an awful lot from when Senator Craughwell and I enlisted. Then, it was fairly straightforward but now security clearances alone can take an awful long time - they can take months and months. That is without being critical of those in the Garda vetting unit who look after all of that, but there is a big backlog there. By the time a recruit is ready to be attested and start training properly for his or her military role, he or she will have already demonstrated a resilience and tenacity that is second to none. If it was so difficult to join any other organisation, people would not do it. That has to be called out and recognised.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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That is significant. I will go back to Mr. Richardson. Did he make a point of any of Senator Craughwell's points or questions?

Mr. Eugene Gargan:

We have a note of some of them.

Mr. Neil Richardson:

To address some of the points made by the Senator earlier, in sequence, Permanent Defence Force officers know there are no longer any Permanent Defence Force officers with all of the reserve units around the country. That said, all Reserve units around the country are actually part of what were Permanent Defence Force units. Technically, they have permanent officers within their chain of command but none that one could argue were assigned solely to deal with the Reserve, except for the officer of Reserve affairs, but that is not in a-----

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Can I just hold up Mr. Richardson for a second? Mr. Gargan mentioned he was with the 27th Infantry Battalion, so he is answerable to the PDF CO of that battalion. Is he then a peer equal with his fellow officers within the 27th battalion?

Mr. Eugene Gargan:

I would say so. This is something that has developed in recent years. It is a product of working very closely with them and supporting them as well when they need us to assist with security duties, for example, and they are in a pinch. Without speaking for the other representative associations here, whom I am sure will have their own way of expressing their own challenges, we recognise we are all part of the same unit. We will all get stuck in together. We will all undertake the duties as best as our availability allows because most of us only get so many days' holidays throughout the year, so there is a limit on our own availability. When we go in and do as many duties as we can, we will also assist on other taskings that come to us. They might be regimented duties and there could be exercises that the unit needs us for as well.

It is not just necessarily for the enemy roles, as the Senator would know. Typically we would be properly integrated into the unit. When they get to see us operating and they get to see the enthusiasm of reservists, and the actual lifting of the burden of work on already stretched comrades in the PDF, they are naturally appreciative. We love the job. We love doing it for the sake of the job as well. Here is the thing: we are not doing it for the sake of making money or getting paid. There is no pension, there is no gratuity, there is nothing like this that we get at the end of it, but not being paid is the problem. Not being paid is the hygiene factor. That is the thing. You cannot go home and justify to your family "Well, I am after using half a tank of petrol, or diesel, to get there, I am loading up the washing machine with a dirty uniform after being out on the ground for 48 hours or whatever, and I get nothing for it". That is the bit that stings.

To the Senator's point, absolutely there is no issue at all and there is great mutual respect. I am happy to say that. They recognise that we are a very valuable part of the unit on that level.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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It is important to put it on the record. Mr. Gargan made the point that reservists are an integral part of the unit in every way except where a unit is deploying overseas and the reservists cannot deploy. We have not protected reservists' employment with legislation yet. Let us say that we call up a member of the Reserve, for example one of the three in front of us. We will take Ms McCarthy because she moved from Belmullet out to west Cork, so she saved the day for the Reserve. Let us say that Ms McCarthy has a specific expertise in cybersecurity, we are going to the Lebanon and we need that person as nobody in the PDF is available. We can bring her but we cannot protect her employment while she is gone. There are all sorts of hurdles to be gone over before we could. Even though we say that reservists can serve overseas, they cannot. Perhaps Mr. Richardson will continue on please.

Mr. Neil Richardson:

On that very point, we can now serve overseas and we actually have people overseas right now as we are having this meeting. It is quite wonderful. There are some high profile missions and high profile engagements, particularly in the cyber sphere, where technical specialists are going to overseas missions and lending their qualifications and skills to those missions. However, the second half of the Senator's point is quite correct. There is no employment protection legislation in place to ensure their job is waiting for them when they come home. What ultimately dictates whether a reservist can or cannot go overseas is their personal circumstances. Their job might be willing to wait for them or maybe they are self-employed and they can take that break, but general employment protection legislation does not exist in this regard. This is probably prohibiting a significant number of reservists, who otherwise could and would go overseas, from applying. The ability to go is there but the support to go is not there. This is the way we would look at.

Ms Jo McCarthy:

As an employer you would be a little bit slow to take on a reservist if you knew that you had to let someone go for up to six months. You may have already invested in their training and everything. You have probably already put something into their pension and so on and they are just gone. Who is now going to do that role? Am I going to have to invest again in someone for six months? Are they going to leave? There is a lot to sort out there,

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Speaking of the cyber area, during the lifetime of the last committee the Taoiseach made the point that the Reserve Defence Force was going to have to change with respect to recruitment. He envisaged a situation, particularly in areas like cyber, where a rather follically challenged rotund gentleman or lady could serve in uniform. They would not pass fitness tests but they would bring a level of expertise that would work in an office situation. Has the association taken a stand or a vision on that?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

The position on it from our association's perspective, and I think that of the wider military management and the Department of Defence, is that we are absolutely open to all avenues of service by anybody who could contribute meaningfully to military service within the State. In the big picture strategic level there is openness to all of these initiatives but we must consider the practical way of implementing them. How would you potentially recruit 100 cyber experts who are technical specialists in their field if you told them that they will not be paid in any way, shape or form for a significant proportion of what they would actually be doing. That is our difficulty and that is what we are primarily communicating today. The achievement of the stated Government policy of building an operationally capable Reserve, which is a fantastic objective, is somewhat undermined by then saying "Oh and by the way you have to do a lot of stuff for free". This is our key message today.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Is there an upper age limit for people, for example if we are talking about retired experts? Is there room there?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

At the moment the upper age limit for somebody with no previous military service is 39. With prior military service in the Permanent Defence Force or in the Reserve, it is 45. Even those upper age limits are currently being investigated for raising on the grounds that some specialists will take decades to become technical experts in their field. If they are in their late 40s or 50s then so what if they are going to be used in a particular cyber, medical or engineering sphere, or whatever it might be. All of that is on the table for discussion at present. That is our understanding.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I might say even beyond that where we have people who have retired, who may be in a certain financial position and who want to give something back. To me it would seem like an ideal opportunity for a person to give something back and to then share his or her expertise for the good of the State.

Mr. Neil Richardson:

Some international militaries do have specialist technical Reserve appointments where they will allow people to the age of 70 to apply. Obviously that is not currently the case here but it is internationally For very particular technical roles, be they medical specialists or whatever, they will have it up as high as the age of 70.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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From the HSE cyberattack, we learnt that there is a front-line cyber defence through the An Garda Síochána and through the Communications and Information Services, CIS, Corps, of the Defence Forces. The second tier, namely, the Second Line Reserve - and this requires the employment legislation we are talking about - are people who are working in the cyber industry. They could be shifted from their current work into an emergency situation where a national utility or a national organisation had been attacked. Part of a vision document we have been working on for some time proposes there would be tertiary, or a third tier, perhaps called the cyber Fianna, if one wanted to call them that, with people who would be less qualified but would be available for some of what we might call the grunt work that is required following a major cyberattack. In the HSE case, this was the reconfiguration of every machine in the country. In order to ensure that it is an organisation that is dynamic and flexible and available, it is my view that they would be ideally suited in the RDF where they would have the discipline, the training and access to ongoing training in the latest and greatest technology there is. This is an area we need to focus on. We need to stop thinking of the RDF as infantry soldiers and start thinking of them as experts who are available and have the training that everybody else has. I am sorry for interjecting again but really the work the Reserve does is incredible for the small number there is.

Mr. Eugene Gargan:

To follow from what the Senator has referred to, and again harking back to my own background a number of years ago in cyber security, it is one of these examples that is often quoted; that and medical expertise. We have highly qualified doctors, anaesthetists, surgeons and people like that in the Reserve who ought to be utilised and who are perfectly willing. The overarching issue in relation to the utilisation of members of the Reserve for a specialist role does come back to employment protection. This is not something we had specifically prepared to present today. We had another more urgent issue which we have debated and discussed. With employment performance and employment protection, and even just the creation of appropriate legislation that would protect reservists in every form, so many questions have to be addressed. They are simple basic things like what would happen if a reservist is injured or is killed accidentally or in the line of duty when they are serving their country? What happens to their civilian pension or to the sick pay scheme their employer is paying for? Who bears responsibility for this? We have touched upon this with the working time directive, which has brought a little bit of focus to this particular challenge and these types of questions. This is something the RDFRA has tabled with the Department and with military management for the last number of years. We say that it is not quite urgent yet but it is very important and to please not underestimate the amount of work it will take in order to look at this. We are informed that this work is about to commence, if it has not already done so. A consultant group is being established to look at it and to look at the requirements for what needs to be done. That is a significant body of work. I work in industrial relations and I can tell the committee that there is a lot to be done there.

It is going to be a significant block at some point in the future for both recruitment and the utility of reservists. If you consider the scenario where there is another cyber or hybrid attack made on the State, presumably the same critical infrastructure is also within the domain of the private operators - mobile phone companies, broadband companies and people like that. They are also going to look for the very same experts to look after their infrastructure and if the State or the military approaches the CEO of an ISP to say, "No, we need that individual to come do something for the HSE", how is the employer to respond? The employer will say, "Hang on, I paid for their training and certification. I keep their ongoing training going. I am paying into their pension. They work for me for 48 weeks of the year, depending on what it is, so surely I have first call". These questions will be thrashed out. Government policy has yet to catch up in that particular area. We have a view. We would suggest that there is a greater priority in service to the State but we are reservists. We would say that, would we not? There is a significant piece of work-----

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I want to go on to Senator Kyne, if Mr. Gargan does not mind. The Senator has been waiting for a while.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chair. I have two questions. The witnesses have mentioned the practicalities of getting to the barracks, and the west Cork-Belmullet situation. Is there a correlation between proximity to the barracks and enlisting in the Reserve Defence Force? Second, have the witnesses done any outreach to transition year schools? I think they possibly have but they might elaborate on that.

Mr. Neil Richardson:

On proximity to barracks, absolutely yes. As we have folded back from outpost locations, as they were known in various rural communities, we have seen recruitment drop off in those areas. The vast majority of individuals joining the Defence Forces, or the Reserve Defence Force nowadays, generally tend to come from the areas immediately surrounding a barracks location. We have some outliers, where you will find somebody who has applied from 100 km away from their home location to join the barracks. There might be personal reasons involved in that, whatever they might be. It may be a particular unit or type of unit they want to serve in but for the most part, recruitment has died off in areas where there is no physical Reserve footprint on the ground.

On engagement with TY students, that is something that the uniformed military management side of the house has dealt with rather than us as a representative association but yes, there has been engagement with TY students. To my understanding, there is quite an active TY engagement programme operating within the Defence Forces. Could that be expanded to potentially inform those TY students a bit more about Reserve service rather than just Permanent Defence Force service? Absolutely but a programme of engagement is in place.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Does Deputy Ó Laoghaire want to ask a question?

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have one or two brief questions. It leads on from Senator Kyne's question. I apologise if this was touched upon. When there is, with any organisation, a smaller-than-desired number of people who will very likely be spread unevenly around the country, if you look at a map of the State, are there very particular and obvious gaps with regard to RDF capacity?

The Commission on the Defence Forces talks about Air Corps Reserve Defence Force personnel. I had a quick look but I am not able to get a number for those at the minute. Are there many or any people in Air Corps who are RDF? On the Naval Service RDF, I suppose that involves a very particular set of skills or duties. Will there be specific actions required in those two areas to try and bring more people into the RDF for those two services?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

I might take those. We see, as might be expected with regard to the distribution of the reserve at present, that the vast majority of the reserve is located in Dublin and Cork cities because it follows population centres. Where there is really a dearth of reservists is the north west. We have quite disparate training centres spread out very far in counties like Galway, Roscommon, Mayo, Sligo and Donegal. You see there that the Reserve numbers dwindle off to very small numbers spread across the various outposts or training centres in that area. The north west would be a key area for priority.

The Air Corps Reserve does not exist yet. There is no one in it. Our understanding is that at this time, military management is currently developing what it wants it to look like and what roles the Air Corps or air force Reserve will have. After that it will be populated by reservists but at the moment it is in a kind of planning phase. It is not off the ground just yet, no pun intended.

On the Naval Service Reserve, the Commission on the Defence Forces report and the RDF regeneration plan speaks about essentially doubling the size of the Naval Service Reserve. Its current establishment is 200. It is going to go up to a minimum of 400 personnel. We would expect to see attempts to attract professional mariners, who work in the maritime sphere, into this new Naval Service Reserve and for new units of the Naval Service Reserve to potentially pop up in coastal locations around the State. Again, that is part of a project being driven by military management, which is not due to come to fruition for another couple of years. These are the early stages for the growth of those two arms of the Defence Forces.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I have one final question. The witnesses talked a bit about the kinds of duties that are there with regard to working with the Defence Forces such as patient transit and all that kind of stuff. On the trajectory, there is an ambitious enough target. I think it is 3,800 in 2028. In order to achieve that, is there enough in expanding the incidence of the types of duties that are currently undertaken or will additional duties have to be identified for personnel?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

On how to recruit up to the intended strength of the Reserve, which is 3,800 Army reservists, 400 Naval Service reservists and then 200 Air Corps or air force reservists - which is, say, 4,500 all in - there are two ways of doing it. One is to recruit new personnel. We start filling up the ranks of privates and sailors at that level, as well as expanding the number of instructors we have. If we do not have enough non-commissioned officers, NCOs, and officers who actually train these people, it becomes a problem. You could have 2,000 people ready to be trained and we would have no one qualified to train them. Internally, within military management, there is an awareness of that two-tier priority: to train instructors and get them ready through promotion courses and other upskilling courses within the Defence Forces, and then recruit new people. Both of them are coming along quite well. We had 300 recruits in last year and a series of promotion courses for currently serving personnel to qualify them to train these new people. As long as these two things keep going side by side, we will hopefully be working, or at least tracking broadly, towards our target of 4,500 personnel by the end of the decade. The problem is what has happened in the last couple of weeks. We are turning around, particularly to the instructor cohort and saying that a lot what they are doing is reverting to being unpaid. To the new recruit cohort, we are turning around and saying to them that when they qualify and train as a private soldier, there will be a lot of stuff they will have to do that is unpaid. That is a bit of a morale blow and a disincentive. On the actual mechanics of moving towards our strength, that is working okay internally.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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You are not going to run up against a ceiling with any of the types of duties that exist currently.

Mr. Neil Richardson:

No. If we can keep running our promotion and training courses for serving personnel to qualify them as instructors, and if we can keep inducting new personnel in to be trained, things should go well. It is just incentivising that process.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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On that issue of instructors, the policy practised over the last number of years has run the Defence Forces into the ground. We are now in a position where we need to recruit both in RDF and PDF. It is fair to say that there is a significant interest among recruits who want to be a part of either the RDF or PDF. However, one of the problems we are now running into is we cannot take in the recruits because we do not have instructors to train them. The opportunity to expand the Defence Forces and meet the targets laid down by the Government have been hampered by virtue of the policy that has concentrated on recruiting rather than retention. Retention is twice as important as recruiting and if the RDF is left with a limited number of instructors, then it can only take in a very limited number of recruits. The same applies to the PDF and I think that should find its way into any report we make.

Ms Jo McCarthy:

I will answer that. For example, there was the recruitment campaign over the last 18 months. In any good job or with any good employee, the good people are always asked to do more. What has been happening with the reservists is that the good people are being asked again and again to operate fully onto their full-time jobs, caring for their families and trying to take care of everything.

Last year, it was fantastic that we got so many recruits in. The recruit liaison officers have to do a huge amount of work. They have to organise the fitness test. That means they have to reach out to everybody individually. It is not a block email or anything like that, given GDPR. When recruits pass the fitness test, the recruit liaison officers have to look into holding interview boards. An interview board has to have two NCOs and an officer. Those interviews have to take place when those people are actually available. That is only part of that process. Thankfully, the massive load of work that these people have been doing over the last year was paid for. They were happy about it despite it not being massive money or anything but now that is gone. We have been trying, with great difficulty, to hold on to these really good people for the past number of years and this is just such a blow to all of them. That is why we are here today.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Following on from Deputy Ó Laoghaire's question regarding geographical black spots or weak spots in the north west, what does reversing that look like?

Mr. Neil Richardson:

There are multiple ways we could suggest. Ultimately, it is going to be a matter for military management to make a decision on whether that is a return to RDF training centres or some form of physical presence in these communities in order to make it easier for reservists to attend. That is one potential option. Another would involve the provision of military transportation. If a training centre cannot be brought to the reservist, then the reservist can be brought to the training centre. I want to quote something from a document that was released yesterday. I think it may address some of these points. It is the Department of Defence and Defence Forces Strategy Statement 2025-2028. Section 17 is on defence-led commitments arising from the programme for Government 2025:

Ensure the further development of our Reserve Defence Force, ensuring that the newly established Office of Reserve Affairs and the Regeneration and Development Plan is fully resourced and equipped and take all steps to increase the number of reserves.

That is now in a strategy statement released yesterday. We would argue that to take all steps would include looking at how we either bring training or service into communities to the reservists or bring applicants or reservists from those communities to places where they can render service.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Are there any closing remarks before I conclude?

Mr. Eugene Gargan:

No, thank you, a Chathaoirligh.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I want to thank you very much for being with us this morning, Mr. Gargan, Mr. Richardson and Ms McCarthy. This was a very informative session. We have some actions coming out of this in writing to the Department of public expenditure and the Tánaiste. We hear the concerns that you have raised this morning. I just want to thank you as a representative organisation and to thank the RDF as well for the valuable work that you do. As a committee, we will work with you to ensure that the issues you have outlined will be addressed.

The meeting now stands adjourned until Thursday, 2 October at 9.30 a.m. when the joint committee will meet in public session for an update on the national maritime security strategy.