George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Barry Ward and Senators Maria Byrne and Joe O'Reilly. Everyone is very welcome.

We do not have anyone attending remotely today, but I will read the note. I ask anyone who is attending remotely to mute themselves when not contributing in order that we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones - I include mine in this - are on silent or switched off. Members attending remotely are reminded of their constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex.

As the witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

On the agenda for today's meeting is an engagement with the Irish Traveller Movement to discuss the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme, TAIP. Our witnesses are: Mr. Bernard Joyce, director; Ms Bridget Kelly, TAIP manager; and Mr. Pat Stokes, TAIP outreach officer. You are all very welcome indeed. I invite Ms Kelly to make the opening statement on behalf of the Irish Traveller Movement, following which we will proceed with questions and answers.

Ms Bridget Kelly:

Thank you for inviting us here today to speak about the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme, commonly known as the TAIP. I am making today’s statement as programme manager. I am delighted to be joined by my colleagues Bernard Joyce, director of the Irish Traveller Movement, our TAIP outreach officer, Pat Stokes, and Rossa Gilsenan, our administrator from the TAIP programme, who is in the Gallery. We are delighted and honoured to be here today to talk to the committee about the programme. We welcome the opportunity to update it on our work and progress to date.

The Traveller apprenticeship programme is funded by the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science through the Dormant Accounts Fund and hosted by the Irish Traveller Movement. We have a staff team made up of a manager, two outreach officers and an administrator. We are entering our third pilot year. The programme supports members of the Traveller community to access and remain apprenticeships and encourages employers to take on Traveller apprentices. The scheme provides employer grants of €2,000, alongside bursaries of up to €3,000 for members of the Traveller community who want to do either apprenticeships or pre-apprenticeship programmes.

The TAIP’s model is rooted in a community development approach which is Traveller-led and which ensures culturally appropriate and needs-based support. We raise awareness of the bursary and apprenticeships through the network of local Traveller representative organisations and work with a range of education, training and support organisations alongside employers to enhance access to apprenticeship opportunities for Travellers. On the apprentice side, demand for our support is high and much of our work involves providing one-to-one assistance to members of the Traveller community seeking apprenticeships or pre-apprenticeship courses, while also linking them with local ETBs and apprenticeship courses. On the employer side, our outreach officer focuses solely on making links with employers in order to support their uptake of Traveller apprentices. In this regard, we have made progress with some employers for example the ESB, Mr. Price, AXA and Irish Rail. We are also at a very early stage, along with the National Apprenticeship Office, on a much-needed national employer campaign for Traveller apprentices and for apprentices from other marginalised communities. In 2025, together with Business in the Community Ireland, we delivered two training sessions on Traveller employment, recruitment and retention training to more than 60 employers and stakeholder organisations. One of these sessions was supported by IBEC.

On the programme outcomes, an evaluation of the pilot programme to date has been undertaken. This is due to be published by the Department and, hopefully, launched by end of this year. We have outlined in our paper to the committee some useful statistics on the uptake of apprenticeships, the related types and the expressions of interest. I am happy to take any questions on that area today also. Since the start of the pilot programme, we have had 457 expressions of interest from members of the Traveller community in the apprenticeship scheme, and we have funded 150 applicants to date. The uptake in respect of the employer grant in that time however is only eight, with just one so far in 2025. Over 90% of those who completed an expression of interest met the educational requirements for apprenticeships, and 32% had the leaving certificate or higher.

Fears of discrimination, a lack of confidence in approaching potential employers, and limited connections with employers were identified as barriers to potential apprentices. Fewer Traveller women than expected applied, and specific focus is now on combating the barriers to participation for Traveller women. The bursaries have been crucial in helping apprentices stay in and progress through their apprenticeships. They cover costs such as those relating to tools, equipment, clothing, and transport. Recipients reported increased confidence, empowerment, and feeling on an equal footing with their colleagues. On the other hand, many Traveller apprentices do not disclose or actively hide their Traveller identity due to fear of discrimination or past negative experiences. Most had witnessed language which was discriminatory and offensive to Travellers in the workplace but did not feel in a position to challenge it.

Turning to some of the challenges within the programme, there were more people seeking apprenticeships than employers willing to take Travellers on. We continue to work with employers to understand the obstacles encountered, but this a huge undertaking. It is even bigger than the resources available to the programme, and there is a need for a multilevel focus and drive.

For Traveller apprentices, self-identifying continues to be a major issue. There is systemic and residual discrimination in the employer sector, with few availing of the grant or placement. Access to pre-apprenticeship and apprenticeship training courses is also an issue. We have advocated for Travellers to be prioritised for these courses. There are not enough courses available and those that are available do not have enough places to meet the need.

A committed and prioritised focus is needed across employer bodies, both private and public, training institutions and the national employment activation programmes to promote the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme and increase employer uptake. The TAIP demonstrates the importance of targeted, Traveller-specific measures in addressing unemployment and inequality. Sustained support and stronger employer partnerships will be essential to ensure apprenticeships become a real and lasting opportunity for Travellers.

Before concluding, we would like to highlight three key areas where the committee’s support would be invaluable, those being, encouraging stronger employer engagement, particularly within the public service, to create apprenticeship opportunities for Travellers and support positive action measures, which the TAIP cannot alone address; supporting prioritisation of Travellers in accessing pre-apprenticeship programmes delivered through ETBs and higher education institutions; and securing long-term, mainstream funding to provide stability and sustainability for the TAIP beyond the Dormant Accounts Fund.

The TAIP has proven to be a positive initiative that is growing from strength to strength each year, but it needs to move from being a pilot project to a sustainable model that delivers real and lasting change in apprenticeship access and employment outcomes for Travellers.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to present here today. We look forward to members’ questions.

George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
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I thank Ms Kelly for her opening statement. I now open the floor to questions. I call Deputy Quinlivan.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Kelly for the presentation. I read the submissions as well. In her presentation, Ms Kelly mentioned that fewer than anticipated women from the Traveller community applied for the apprenticeship schemes and that the Irish Traveller Movement was combating barriers in that regard. What are the main barriers leading to the less-than-expected take-up and what steps are being taken to combat these barriers?

Ms Bridget Kelly:

Some of the issues relating to Traveller women not taking up apprenticeships are the lack of apprenticeships or pre-apprenticeship courses in some areas. We are doing a lot of work to target Traveller women. We have a campaign where we have developed a promotional video targeting Traveller women. The video is led by Traveller women and it promotes and targets Traveller women as regards the importance of availing of apprenticeships and pre-apprenticeship courses in their areas and reaching out to us for support.

We are also delivering Traveller-women workshops across the various Traveller organisations. We recently delivered one in Galway and we have more planned for the year ahead. We have a strategy in place around targeting Traveller women and we have been sending out promotional posters to Traveller organisations to target Traveller women within the community. We have undertaken a lot of promotional work online on social media, such as on LinkedIn and Facebook, along with our membership organisations. We are looking at all the platforms in that regard.

We can see a slight change this year with an increased uptake and more Traveller women starting to express more interest. We see that the approach we have taken is working, but we know more needs to be done in that particular area. It is an area we are focusing more on.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Kelly said there was a lack of opportunities for Traveller women. Is that because there are no apprenticeships available for everyone in that area or just for them?

Ms Bridget Kelly:

Pre-apprenticeship courses are available. In certain areas, though, there are no pre-apprenticeship courses or even apprenticeships. Getting employers for some of the women was a big issue. We started to see that women were not taking up apprenticeships, for example, those living in a small town and trying to get an employer. As the Deputy knows, to do an apprenticeship, someone needs an employer. The Traveller women could not get an employer. This was a big issue and there was a dropout as a result. The women could not avail of the apprenticeships. That was one of the reasons.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Earlier this year, I was invited to attend the award ceremony for a class that had completed its access to apprenticeship programme in Technological University of Shannon, TUS. I imagine the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme liaises with universities on programmes like that. Is there much opt-in from young Travellers to access to apprenticeship programmes?

Ms Bridget Kelly:

We do a lot of work with TUS. A lot of Travellers avail of the pre-apprenticeship programme in the Limerick and Athlone areas. We have seen an uptake in the number of members of the Traveller community availing of that pre-apprenticeship programme. TUS has been working with us on an ongoing basis and we have a great relationship with it.

We support the community as well. We give people information on what is expected of them when they are applying for the pre-apprenticeship programmes. We do preparation work with them around the interview process and inform them what is involved in the programmes and so forth. Members of the Traveller community are availing of the TUS access to apprenticeship courses. We have a relationship with TUS, which we will keep going.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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TUS informed me of that as well, but it is good to hear it from Ms Kelly. I wish to put on record my thanks to Professor Vincent Cunnane, president of TUS, and to Ms Susan Maher, who runs that course at TUS. She is excellent at what she is trying to do.

I have a final question, which anyone can comment on. Ms Kelly mentioned the appalling situation of anti-Traveller discrimination that remains in the workplace. What steps is the organisation taking in this regard? I am not throwing it all back on the Irish Traveller Movement by any stretch of the imagination. What steps need to be taken to combat and educate employers about the impact of such discrimination?

Ms Bridget Kelly:

Like I said earlier, we are losing Traveller apprentices because they cannot get employers. This is a big issue and challenge. The work we are doing to date is in trying to build that relationship with employers. We have an outreach officer making links with employers. It is a challenge, however. While we have some employers on board, we need more.

We feel this issue is bigger than ourselves and the programme. We need buy-in from IBEC, the trade unions and the national apprenticeship office. As I outlined in my statement, we are at the early stages of a national employer campaign targeting Traveller apprentices, along with other marginalised groups, with the national apprenticeship office and in collaboration with the likes of the trade unions and IBEC. However, Government commitment is also needed. It should not be left solely to the trade unions, IBEC or the national apprenticeship office; it is down to the Government as well. We also need to see an employment and enterprise strategy put in place that will help address the employment crisis among the Traveller community. We need more employers on board. Based on the statistics I gave earlier, there were 457 expressions of interest. The interest is there from the community but not from the employers. The statistics show that only eight employers availed of the grant over the three years.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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That is really shocking, in fairness.

Ms Bridget Kelly:

It is shocking.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Kelly mentioned one or two employers. For instance, the company MrPRICE is always mentioned at both the disability and enterprise committee. It is one of the best employers for activating people who are finding it hard to get employment.

Ms Bridget Kelly:

MrPRICE is one of the champion employers out there, along with the likes of the ESB. MrPRICE has taken on 30 Travellers in the past couple of months across all its stores. We also share the case study in which it has taken on a young Traveller woman as an apprentice financial accountant within its stores. It has been very supportive of members of the Traveller community. It is great to see but we need to see more employers like MrPRICE, ESB and Irish Rail. We are willing to meet with all employers, but they need to be inclusive of Traveller apprentices along with other marginalised communities within the workforce.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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MrPRICE is doing a really good job. It should not be the only company championing all the minorities, however.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Kelly for the presentation, as well as Mr. Joyce and Mr. Stokes for coming in. I have a couple of questions that primarily concern the programme, although one or two may be more general questions. Are there particular trades that are in higher demand among members of the Traveller community in terms of the apprenticeships they would like to undertake? Another question I have relates to the success of the participants. Is that data available? Do all the participants successfully complete their apprenticeships? Some of the things that Ms Kelly outlined regarding the treatment her organisation has concerns about infers to me that it would be a challenge to maintain and participate fully in the programme if people are meeting those types of discrimination and other things. That might impede someone’s success in the programme.

What is the average age at which the apprenticeship might commence? We had the educational welfare officers in a couple of weeks ago. They advised us that, cross-community, they see that the fourth year of the second-level education system as the place where many people leave school early. One reason they put that down to is that the educational welfare officers do not work with children over 16. Have the witnesses encountered people who have completed the full second-level system before they go on the apprenticeship programme or would the participants have left before they concluded their time in secondary school?

Regarding evaluation of the programme, have the witnesses received feedback from the employers which participated? Are they reporting it as a positive experience for themselves, their workplaces and their businesses? The witnesses mentioned Irish Rail and ESB. Are any other State agencies or local authorities or the HSE engaged which could participate? Have they shown any willingness?

Ms Bridget Kelly:

I thank Deputy Connolly for his questions. His first question was about the uptake of apprenticeships. Many apprentices we have are doing electrical or plumbing apprenticeships. Traveller women are doing financial, accountancy, mechanics and hairdressing apprenticeships. That is the selection that our apprentices are doing at the moment. Will the Deputy repeat the second question about challenges?

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Has Ms Kelly seen that challenge stop people from concluding the programme? Has the challenge of discrimination and commentary in the workplace caused anybody who has entered the programme to drop out before they have completed it successfully? Is there a drop-out rate?

Ms Bridget Kelly:

The apprentices who are in place at the moment have not encountered that but we have seen Traveller apprentices not availing of the apprenticeships because they could not get the employer. That is where we have seen discrimination. For anyone who is doing apprenticeships, we have not-----

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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They successfully complete the programme.

Ms Bridget Kelly:

Yes.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That is great.

Ms Bridget Kelly:

I cannot say they successfully finish their apprenticeship, because our programme is only a pilot. I know apprentices in their second or third year. We are only in the third year of the pilot programme. To date, we have not seen anyone drop out. The issue of racism and discrimination is still significant. We are still losing out. For example, looking at statistics, we have funded 150 but we are losing many members of the Traveller community because the employers are not there. It is an area that we need to work on. The employers need to work with us. They need to be open and more inclusive to take on members of the Traveller community. They need to set a target and be more open to taking on Travellers in the workplace and Traveller apprentices. Does Mr. Stokes want to answer the question about companies?

Mr. Pat Stokes:

It is good to have the likes of Irish Rail and ESB in there but sometimes it is more about getting the local bank of employers that you can call on. We are finding that Travellers have issues with getting employers locally on it. Certain Traveller names stand out in certain areas. Once employers hear that name, it is done. On a personal level, my son tried to apply for an apprenticeship here. We had not mentioned names or where we are from. That morning, the employer said it was expanding and was taking people on for apprenticeships. My son sent in his CV and had qualifications to get onto the apprenticeship. That afternoon, the employer was not in a position to take anybody on. It was put down to the name that had to go on the CV. It is great to have all these big companies but we would still like to have that bank of local employers that we can go straight to when we need to.

Ms Bridget Kelly:

Following on about the employers, we have some public sector employers involved, but we need local employers too. We have done much work to reach out to local employers. The National Apprenticeship Service has a list of all the registered employers which take on apprentices. We have done much work in that area, reaching out to local employers. They do not seem to be open and some do not want to meet with us. You might get the meeting but you do not get the second meeting. More intervention is needed here. It should not be just left to us in the programme. Government intervention and a national campaign is needed, but we need buy-in from all the trade unions and IBEC too.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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What is the educational attainment of the participants? Have they completed secondary school?

Ms Bridget Kelly:

They have done their leaving certificate. They obviously have to meet the criteria to do the apprenticeships. We have all that as part of our data collection.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Have the witnesses got evaluations back from employers?

Ms Bridget Kelly:

It is still at draft stage at the moment. It is in the hands of the Department. We hope to have it launched by the end of the year. I cannot say more on that until then. We will let the committee know when the launch is happening. I will get back to the Deputy then about the queries on that.

Regarding local authorities and others, no employers have reached out to us. We are doing our best to reach out to them. It is important that employers reach out to us. They should be working with us. It should not be the other way around. They should be open and inclusive about taking on Traveller apprentices, along with other marginalised groups. As is, it is us who have to make the contact and connection.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for being here this afternoon. It is one thing reading it, but when you hear it said, it is stark. I totally agree with the witnesses about the dormant funding. That needs to happen to bring stability. Dormant funding is for either 18 months or three years. It needs to be put on a permanent footing. If the committee is making recommendations, one should be that we need sustainability around what the witnesses are doing to support it. I was just saying to Deputy Connolly as Ms Kelly was speaking that what the witnesses are presenting here this morning is no different to the disabled community who are trying to find access or a pathway to work. What the witnesses are saying is frustrating.

Regarding the apprenticeship programme, I know a young man in Galway, Ian McDonagh, who was doing embalming. He could not get a sponsor. He struggled to get one and in the end, he has had to get up at 5 a.m. every morning to travel to Dublin to achieve what is required. He could get nobody. It is amazing to think that, with all of our undertakers across the country, he could get no sponsor and had to travel all the way to Dublin to access that support and get it across the line. That is not balanced.

The State has the biggest role to play. The HSE and public service have the biggest role. They are our largest employers. Sometimes you have to lead by example to encourage others to come on board. I can understand employers, if they do not see it happening in State agencies. We have to be able to show what it looks like, how it is delivered and how it is supported by the State. We are continuously looking for staff, whether for the maintenance of our hospitals, our level 3s or level 4s, or our healthcare assistants. I cannot for the life of me understand why it is not happening that way. Maybe that is a dialogue which we as a committee have to work on collectively to open that pathway for apprenticeship programmes. Fair play to Jim Meade in Iarnród Éireann for leading by example, but we need the HSE to do exactly that. You cannot have 300 people who have expressed an interest who cannot get an opportunity to develop or shine. We are restricting people, particularly when there are 70 apprenticeships which they are queueing up for.

I remember meeting Garda Superintendent Ollie Baker in Ballinasloe. He says he has no problem in supporting young people into apprenticeships where they cannot get them, if that person needs that chance. That is out of the Ballinasloe youth work services. There is collective responsibility. It is great to see it is being done in Limerick, but I would have thought all technological universities and education and training boards would have that responsibility and should be collectively supporting it, and it should not be hit and miss. Is that what Ms Kelly is experiencing?

Ms Bridget Kelly:

In fairness to the education and training boards, they do a lot of good work and have many good courses. I want to acknowledge that.

What we are finding, though, is that there are not enough pre-apprenticeship or apprenticeship programmes available to the community. Even where there are pre-apprenticeship programmes, there is a set number. This does not meet the community need. Therefore, more pre-apprenticeship programmes and, in particular, more apprenticeship opportunities need to be made available. Travellers need to be prioritised and more courses need to be created. There is sufficient demand.

We have noticed, in respect of the further education and training strategy, that the uptake of Travellers by ETBs is not great. We have flagged this with the ETBs and SOLAS. They need to focus on it more and link in with the local Traveller organisations. Better engagement with us is needed to help to increase the number of Travellers engaging with the ETBs. When that work is done with us and the relevant organisations, there will be more engagement from Travellers with courses. However, those courses need to be provided.

We are also doing work with TU Dublin. In fairness, it is doing a lot of work. We have had much communication with it, particularly on trade days. We are linking in with the access and Roma worker, Annmarie Mc Donagh, whom it is important to mention, along with Dr. Aidan Kenny, the apprenticeship officer. While we are doing a lot of work with TU Dublin, it represents only some of what needs to be done. It needs to be broader, involving all the institutions.

On what was said about Ian McDonagh, we are dealing daily with community members who have a similar experience. We even have the parents on the phone. I was just staying to Mr. Joyce this morning that I had a parent on the phone who has been trying to get his son into an into an apprenticeship for the past year. We are supporting them, trying our best to get an apprenticeship for the young man. The parent said he has worked himself, has done all the various courses, is trying to encourage his young lad to take up a job and is telling him to apply, yet he cannot get an employer on board. He could see the decline in his son in this regard.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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His mental health.

Ms Bridget Kelly:

Therefore, this needs to be considered more.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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We are all parents and all understand how the parent who rang Ms Kelly this morning feels. We all want the best for our children to support to make the transition, whether it is into further education or apprenticeships, but it is a question is how we make the connection.

I have a question on the ETBs. What is the crossover between Youthreach and apprenticeship programmes and pre-apprenticeship programmes? If there were an opportunity to create more pre-apprenticeship programmes, what would they need to be? Obviously, there is a gap somewhere.

My final point is on the employer aspect. Surely there has to be a space for work experience in the pre-apprenticeship programme that would afford an opportunity to enter an apprenticeship. Is there space for development there?

Ms Bridget Kelly:

On the first question, there is a gap. It is important that Traveller children moving into transition year in secondary school be informed about apprenticeships and all the educational opportunities available. We have done a lot of work with career guidance counsellors in this regard, and we actually had a webinar with them. We informed them about TAIP and they informed their communities. It is important that communities be informed and that pupils progress to the leaving certificate and then move on to pre-apprenticeships. It is a matter of raising awareness of apprenticeships and other opportunities. The career guidance counsellors have a key role to play in this regard.

Mr. Stokes does a lot of work on workshops that we deliver, including through Youthreach.

Mr. Pat Stokes:

A lot of the work done involves workshops and outreach. This means going to the Traveller projects, Youthreach and youth services. Reference was made to some Travellers leaving school before completing their education. Some who have done their junior certificate might have passed only two or three subjects but they require five passes for an apprenticeship. When they go into Youthreach, they get qualifications at QQI level 3 or 4, which puts them in a position that leads to an apprenticeship. Between last year and this year, we have run 61 workshops, as well as employer expos. The best thing about the pre-apprenticeship course is that, although short, at just 12 weeks, it gives a taste of many different subjects. We had two Travellers who intended to do carpentry in TUS Athlone, but when they came out of the programme they wanted to be electricians. They realised they did not want to do carpentry. TU Dublin, I hope, is going to open an apprenticeship course is January. There is a good uptake. While the course is also short, at three months, the university gets the employers on board. It gets local employers to come in. It hosts an event like a speed-dating event in which the employers do quick interviews with the participants. In the past two years, including in Limerick and Athlone, about 70% of participants have been getting employers.

Ms Bridget Kelly:

The pre-apprenticeship and access-to-apprenticeship models seem to comprise a very good model that works. It is not only Travellers, but also other young people, who want to do apprenticeships. They come in and say they want to be electricians, for example, but when they do the pre-apprenticeship programme, it opens their eyes to other opportunities available. While they go in to be electricians, they probably end up as plumbers. They get to meet the employers, which is great. It is key, to be honest. Young Travellers doing pre-apprenticeships find this works really well. The employers come in to meet and greet and do the interviews.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I have what is a comment more than anything else. In the past four years, with the development of the higher education portfolio or Ministry, pathway 4 was created. It was for people with disabilities or additional needs who never got the opportunity to go to third level. An access programme like the one our guests have mentioned was created. Every university had the opportunity to offer 20 places to allow participants to sample, taste and experience. This is on a permanent footing. We should be looking for something equal to this on both sides because the people fortunate to get on pathway 4, whether in Galway or Limerick, find the opportunities transformative at the other end.

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I thank our witness for their presentation. We are all in agreement on the statistics on employment, which are really awful. Despite all the best efforts through the apprenticeship programme, the employment outcomes are poor. I agree with what other members said in that the public sector, including the local authorities and OPW, really needs to step up quite significantly here. There are many opportunities. We are in a country with full employment so it beggars belief that we have such a poor uptake right across the public sector.

If it is okay with the Chair, I will ask a few questions on behalf of my colleague Senator Eileen Flynn, who, unfortunately, could not stay for the entire meeting. I will alternate between her questions and some of my own. How limited is the TAIP in creating opportunities for Travellers with limited educational attainment?

Mr. Brendan Joyce:

I thank the Senator for that question. The apprenticeship programme is very much about delivering a bursary to support applicants. It is done in a very culturally appropriate way in terms of outreach and engagement. In this regard, it gives the community confidence. The whole process allows engagement and participation, particularly when there are peer-led workers from the community.

The committee can see today that Ms Kelly, Mr. Stokes and I are very proud members of the Traveller community. We do not feel this is solely an issue for the State, but it is an issue we see. The fact is Travellers want to work. That is indicated by the level of interest in apprenticeships, which means Travellers want to go into employment. I will get to the Senator's question but I want to indicate that the demand that is currently there outstrips supply. We have more demand than we have employment. The opportunities to avail of that in terms of the skills and labour force are not presenting themselves to the community.

We find that Travellers in apprenticeships with employers do not self-identify in fear of what the fallout might be. That is why there is not an uptake of the grant that is currently there, as evidenced by the amount that remains available. I wanted to indicate that, even though Travellers are in the apprenticeships, they are not self-identifying in full because of fear of the fallout from that. That leads to the issue that is prevalent, which is societal discrimination and racism. It is important to indicate that there is still a coldness towards the Traveller community, even when its members want to get into employment and training.

It should be kept in mind that we all want people to succeed, achieve and be ambitious. We want the best for our community. Part of that is removing the chains in terms of poverty. In order to do that, people have to have opportunities and they need a hand up and support. In some cases, that does not transpire, particularly in certain communities.

Maybe I lost my train of thought there. What was the Senator's question?

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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It was a question from Senator Flynn. How limited is the TAIP in creating opportunities for Travellers with limited educational attainment?

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

It is limited in that the apprenticeship has a requirement. We do not set that requirement. A level is required in order to get into the apprenticeship. That level of requirement differs across different apprenticeships. For example, the ESB may have a different type of requirement for electricians and other trades, but there is a minimum standard. What we are indicating is that some Travellers who are coming in are meeting a certain level of requirement, but there are other Travellers who do not. That is why we have expressions of interest. Even for Travellers who may not, for example, meet a requirement, we try to find avenues through pre-apprenticeship so that they still have opportunities that will lead to the career paths they would prefer to go into. We are seeing more and more of that, which is really positive, towards higher education. It is good to have choice in terms of third level education towards the apprenticeship programme and the career paths people are taking.

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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My second question is kind of a hybrid of Senator Flynn's question and my own, if that is okay. How varied are the roles and apprenticeship fields available through the TAIP? Does the ITM feel this ratio is sufficient in creating opportunities for Travellers that may not otherwise be available to them?

Ms Bridget Kelly:

Will the Senator repeat that question?

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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Senator Flynn is really asking how varied the roles are in apprenticeships through the apprenticeship programme. Does the ITM feel the ratio is sufficient in creating opportunities for Travellers?

Ms Bridget Kelly:

I touched on this earlier with Deputy Connolly. The apprenticeships the community are availing of are for the likes of plumbers and electricians. There are then Traveller women who are coming in for, say, motor mechanic apprenticeships. There is also hairdressing. Maybe there could be a bit more of a selection of apprenticeship opportunities available to members of the Traveller community, in particular for Traveller women. A lot of Traveller women contact us in relation to childcare. I know there are no apprenticeships for childcare, but maybe that is another avenue that could be looked at, particularly for Traveller women.

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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It could. The National Women's Council was here yesterday. There is a whole public discourse and Government commitment around moving towards a public model of childcare and early childhood education. That might present opportunities.

I will raise another area of interest. I am looking at the nature restoration element of it and farming and whether there are opportunities for young Traveller men and boys to get involved in farming apprenticeships or programmes through the agricultural colleges. We are facing a huge challenge in farming in terms of succession, but also land abandonment and lack of skilled labour on farms. As I mentioned here last week, we will be embarking on a national nature restoration plan. A huge amount of work needs to be done on the ground, including land management, management of invasive species, deer culling and all of these important pieces of work. I would love to see whether a connection could be made into programmes, such as the deer culling programme, or the management of grasslands and woodlands.

We are involved in a scything project in Kilkenny, which is just concluding this evening, where we are baling the hay. The young Traveller men involved in that really took to the project. Given the significant labour demands that are there from work like that, a connection with the agricultural colleges, the NPWS and other programmes could potentially be an area of interest to look at.

Ms Bridget Kelly:

Definitely.

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

The environmental side is an area to expand. Travellers have always been involved in that, certainly in terms of the Traveller economy. Some of that was very much around recycling and being involved in certain types of work that would have been environmentally friendly. There are opportunities.

There is a crossover between what Travellers are doing and how they are looking for apprenticeships. It should be kept in mind, however, that they are also moving across non-traditional areas. All of this is very new. It is a new programme. Part of that interest is that, while people are looking at going into specific areas of interest, they also want to create employment both for themselves and maybe for other members of their community. There are really good examples of initiatives within the community, such as Bounce Back in Galway and others. There is huge potential, including the potential to move into other areas but, at the moment, we are still relatively new. We are just trying to build the interest from the community. The interest is about ensuring the intersectionality of the community is also brought into this, so that women, men and Travellers with disabilities are included. All of that is also important to ensure that we do not leave anybody behind and people have access, participation and supports.

As Ms Kelly indicated, there is a need for an employment strategy, leadership, enterprise and employment. This apprenticeship programme will not resolve unemployment within the Traveller community. It is a small spoke in the wheel. We are doing well. However, there needs to be national Government leadership and an employment strategy to shift people from the education successes over to the employment outcomes, which will lead to financial independence and viability in people's opportunity in life.

We talked about societal racism. What always strikes me is that when people become employed, they also have the opportunity to break that. Their colleagues become their friends. That then builds relationships. If somebody becomes a teacher or an elected representative, that in itself starts to change the dynamics and the relationships.

We need to build on that because Travellers, for decades, have been left behind in terms of economic employment and in educational opportunities in this country.

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I agree wholeheartedly. I raise the outputs of our work here in this committee. It is important that we look at a stand-alone report on this particular issue with recommendations to the Government. It is something we should give active consideration to.

George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
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That is a very worthy proposal.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Will the evaluation be completed soon?

Ms Bridget Kelly:

We will hopefully have the evaluation report launched by the end of the year.

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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It would be useful for us to try to take that evaluation report. Perhaps this committee could produce a stand-alone report with recommendations to the Government. It might be very useful. There is one more thing I wanted to mention. These are areas of interest I have had for many years regarding traditional skills as well, be it in thatching or stonemasonry. I did mention the NPWS in particular because there are pathways into it through programmes that could lead to field ecology skills and long-term sustainable employment in an area that is only going to grow in demand in the coming decades. I would mention those as possible pathways through the apprenticeship programme.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North-West, Sinn Fein)
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I note Senator Rabbitte mentioned the dormant accounts. The fact that this is not funded properly is a big hindrance in terms of looking at it in the future. The long-term funding for TAP is very important. Is there any sort of legal requirement for employers - I know there is for people with a disability - to take on people who are marginalised, as is generally the case for a lot of people within the Traveller community? The mindset that is out there is one we have to overcome, but is there a legal requirement of any description? I was very disappointed to hear about the amount of take-up this year by different companies, which seems to be less and less. Is there some sort of a gauge on how this is spread out across the country in different areas? I know it is concentrated in ETBs or wherever, but is Cork different than Galway? Is there a big discrepancy? I saw in the past that Cork and other areas did not take up a lot of funding. Is there more emphasis in certain areas? I am curious about that.

If we look at apprenticeships in general, Dublin City Council has only really started apprenticeships again. It is very limited in the amount that it has. Thank God we are at last coming back around to the idea of employing labour in the local authorities, because that was privatised over the years. Maybe we will see that in other local authorities where it will open up the door for more apprenticeships. I know there are other areas such as the FÁS programmes. We have them in the Glasnevin industrial estate for women to do hairdressing and everything. There is competition there, in a sense. How do the witnesses find that? Does that have an impact, in any way, on the amount of people coming forward looking for apprenticeships? Is that a hindrance in terms of looking to get more apprenticeships? Is the employers' grant enough? It is approximately €3,000 or €2,000 to the employers. Maybe there needs to be more incentives for employers as well. I am not sure, but it seems quite low. Maybe that is another area.

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

Deputy Ellis asked a few questions. I will try to unpack some of that. Ms Kelly will come in on the last question. For clarity, the first question was whether anything was in place for Travellers taking up employment. My understanding is that Travellers are protected under the equality legislation and one of those grounds. In essence, it should be that Travellers who access employment have a right to seek remedy under the equality legislation if they deem or feel that they have been discriminated against. We have seen cases being taken. However, given the legislation and the practice, it can be very difficult and certainly unwieldy. A lot of cases would not go to the Workplace Relations Commission.

I suppose there are incentives for employers. There are corporate companies that may have a moral duty and responsibility, but they certainly do not have legislative requirements to employ Travellers. Some examples were given in terms of the public sector. There are target requirements in the public sector, particularly in terms of women and gender quotas and disability. There is a focus on those areas. We would like to see it broadened out. Given the high level of unemployment, exclusion and racism that Travellers experience, the public sector could take a more proactive leadership role. For example, South Dublin County Council is one of the biggest employers in south Dublin. If it were to take a targeted approach, how could it look to employ Travellers within the local authority? It is similar in Dublin City Council and across the country. It could be a really good opportunity to take leadership within those areas and across other areas. In case anybody is watching from south Dublin, they did have a programme for Travellers to take up employment in south Dublin. We welcome that. That was quite a significant amount of time. It is to ensure something like that becomes national policy and is embedded and that internships and employment opportunities are created within the public sector. At the moment, there is some movement but not enough on that. Ms Kelly might come in on the question about grants and employers.

Ms Bridget Kelly:

On the geographical spread, where we have seen a higher demand is in the Dublin, Offaly, Meath and Limerick areas, particularly in the Dublin area. There is definitely a high interest there, but in terms of geographical spread we have seen the most uptake of apprenticeships is in those areas. Regarding the employers' grant, we do have a grant of €2,000, but the employer can also avail of another €2,000 grant from the national apprenticeship office. A gender bursary is also available, worth €2,606 or something like that. That bursary is there as well. We have one, the national apprenticeship has one and then there is the gender bursary as well. Three bursaries available to the employer. It makes it that bit more attractive and there is a bigger incentive for employers to take on Traveller apprentices along with other marginalised groups as well.

To go back to the internships Mr. Joyce mentioned, we need more local authorities and the public sector on board, along with the local employers. If the Government implements the employment enterprise strategy that we have referenced, it will set out key actions that will help to address the employment situation for the Traveller community, particularly around internships. There are some social enterprises out there that are Traveller led and have self-generating incomes. We need to see more of that.

There are myths out there that Travellers do not want to work or be educated. I will put my hand on the Bible and say that, with the work I have been doing in the programme, the community wants to be educated and to have the skills and employment opportunities. I will stand over that claim. It is important that the Government, along with all the other relevant stakeholders, step in. Government intervention is needed. We need that employment and enterprise strategy. We also need our programme funded. This programme is a positive model. It is working. The community is engaging. The interest is there, albeit not from the employers. We are willing to work and put some plan in place - we have a plan in place - but we need support and the Government, trade unions and IBEC on board. We definitely need the programme. Without the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme, we would be losing out through the community not engaging with any of the courses or apprenticeship opportunities.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North-West, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Kelly mentioned the different areas, including the uptake in Dublin. She mentioned Limerick, but she never mentioned Cork.

Ms Bridget Kelly:

I apologise. I meant to reference it.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North-West, Sinn Fein)
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I do not know what the situation there is. Notoriously, its local authorities have been very poor when it comes to Traveller issues. I have visited it. I was with delegations in the different areas down there. I do not feel there is a willingness by certain local authorities to weigh in on a lot of things. I have no doubt it is no different when it comes to apprenticeships. There seems to be less enthusiasm towards these incentives. I do not know whether the witnesses wish to comment on that, and I am not asking them to do so, but it is my opinion that there are certain local authorities and bodies that have not weighed in properly on this programme. It looks that way to me.

Ms Bridget Kelly:

We do not have any local authorities working with us at the moment, so I cannot comment on Cork or any other area. We are quite open to meeting any of the local authorities that want to work with us in regard to creating apprenticeship or employment opportunities. It is something that we need to work on, but the local authorities need to work with us, too.

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

The submission provided to the committee gives a complete breakdown of the geographic spread. I do not know if the members have received that. Cork was in that submission in terms of grant applications in 2023, 2024 and 2025. It is similar across different parts of specific communities. It has shown that the reach of apprenticeships is national, from Donegal to the midlands and right down to Cork. Similar to apprenticeships nationally, where there are larger populations like in Dublin, for example, which has higher uptake levels in some cases and as we would expect, then other big cities should be following suit, with smaller towns and counties following them. That is shown in the total grant distribution of 150 grants across the country. That is also 150 individuals receiving supports that were not there before this apprenticeship programme was established. In some ways, that is significant and important and ensures that, although the programme is new, our team is working nationally and not centred in one area or on one particular group. The intersectionality is important within that.

There is a trend. We need to ensure that, when the applications are coming in, we have a targeted approach so that women can access this programme. They can be the mechanics, which might be seen as non-traditional. It is also for young and old men. For older men, they might not have thought about an apprenticeship or seen it as an opportunity, but it is an opportunity for them to upskill and train. All of that is done through discussions, workshops and direct outreach. It is not just about grant application forms, but also the types of conversation we have directly with individuals and organisations to promote that. As Ms Kelly will be aware, some organisations, such as Offaly Traveller Movement, are setting up apprenticeships for Travellers in particular, which is positive. We welcome that. We can see that building up.

In essence, we want to see the uptake in employment. We want to see people taking up employment opportunities, being successful, reaching the very end and being supported from A to B in doing that, and the programme being resourced and supported in a way that can fulfil that goal.

Senator Rabbitte referenced dormant accounts funding. We would like to see that streamlined and more embedded. It can show, not only to the Traveller community, a model of really good practice. We are looking at this through the lens of discussing Travellers, but it can be a lens to show how a community-led programme can work.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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In light of the discussion about the evaluation report and the suggestion that we produce our own report, the major opportunity I see presenting itself - there might be widespread awareness of this already - is the current review of the national apprenticeship strategy towards a new development from 2026 to 2030. We should suggest that this programme be included in the new strategy and moved from a pilot to a formal initiative. The funding would be copper-fastened within the new strategy.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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The response to Deputy Ellis related to what I would call league tables of who was good or poor at taking up apprenticeships and who does not take them up. It would be interesting to know. The Deputy picked out Cork, but I would love to know where Galway is in this. Does Galway exist?

Ms Bridget Kelly:

We have the list. It is in the submission. I can go down through all of them if the Senator wishes.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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Is it there?

Ms Bridget Kelly:

It is. We have the list up everywhere. The geographical spread is in the submission. It was just that Deputy Ellis asked us about Cork.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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There is a geographical spread of applications. Cork has five grants and Limerick has ten. Limerick has twice as many as Cork. It might be different projects or they might have been bigger projects in Cork. I do not know. Is Limerick applying for twice as many as Cork when its population is half its size?

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is it the case that there are more employers willing in Limerick than in Cork?

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I do not know. I was just commenting on it.

Ms Bridget Kelly:

What is happening with some apprentices is that they are not self-identifying, so their employers do not know they are Travellers.

George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
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In Wexford, the number of Travellers enumerated in the census was clearly not accurate, which is the same issue. There are difficulties that follow on from that.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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At the moment, the Ability programme for disability is funded under the Dormant Accounts Fund. It has not got a main tranche.

If we were to work with the Department of Social Protection to expand the Ability programme to be more inclusive, it could cover two strands. As opposed to siloing ethnic minorities and disabilities, we could look at a more mainstream approach with the Ability programme so as to catch more. It could be an opportunity. They have dormant funding as well. We could kill two birds with one stone and get it done right for once.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I know we are talking about apprenticeships today but the wider issue is employment in the Traveller community. It was said this was a small spoke in a big wheel. I know this is what we should be saying in private session but we should as a committee write to a number of organisations and ask them what they are specifically doing to engage with the Traveller community and activate people. Groups who have no problem coming into us on other issues that we could get to come in on this would be IBEC, ISME, Chambers Ireland, Small Firms Association, the LEOs, the HSE, the OPW and, importantly, the City and County Management Association. What are they specifically doing to address Traveller employment or the lack thereof?

George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
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Senator Noonan might add a couple of names from the environmental pillar.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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Coillte.

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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Absolutely. The OPW and-----

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Can we draft that letter and approve it at the next meeting?

George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
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We can do that. Then we can formulate the list. I will not be at the next meeting. I will be away but we can certainly have it for the next meeting and we will agree on a list rather than leave anybody out.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I just threw it out there.

George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
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Perfect, thanks. Okay folks, thank you very much for your attendance. I hope you found it fulfilling. It was educational for us. We look forward to working collaboratively in the future producing reports and finding information as to how we can enhance and contribute to the witnesses' valuable work.