Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 24 September 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Education and Youth
Recruitment and Retention of Special Needs Assistants: Discussion
2:00 am
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome everyone here this afternoon including those watching the livestream at home. We have no apologies received in advance of today's meeting. I ask anyone attending remotely to mute their device when not contributing so that the meeting does not pick up any background noise or feedback. I also remind those in attendance to make sure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off entirely. Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. As the witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to this committee. This means that they will have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with such direction. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
On the agenda for session one of today's committee meeting is recruitment and retention of special needs assistants, SNAs, with the following witnesses. From Fórsa, I welcome Mr. Andy Pike, head of education; Ms Carol McSherry, chair, Fórsa north Dublin, north Leinster SNA branch and national executive committee, NEC, member; and Ms Catherine Quirke, chair, Fórsa Munster SNA branch and NEC member. From Embrace Autism, I welcome Ms Caroline Cockerill and Ms Lucy Crean. I call on Mr. Pike to make his opening statement, for which he will have five minutes, following which I will call on Ms Cockerill to make her opening statement, for which she will also have five minutes. The opening statements will be followed by questions from members of the committee.
Mr. Andy Pike:
I thank the committee for the invitation to address members today. Fórsa is the largest public service trade union in Ireland. We represent the special needs assistants working in primary, post-primary and special schools. SNAs have been working in our schools supporting students with additional needs for many years, during which time the role of the SNA has expanded and developed. SNAs in 2025 are a diverse, skilled and increasingly professional workforce providing support and care to tens of thousands of students with additional needs. The recruitment and retention of SNAs is of critical importance to our schools, just as SNAs are a critically important support for students. This support enables them to have a full and inclusive educational experience alongside their peers.
In 2020, Fórsa launched the #RespectforSNAs campaign to secure greater recognition of the role and the value SNAs bring to our schools and to the student experience. When discussing the lived experiences of SNAs, we found that the staff group as a whole felt unrecognised, undervalued and disrespected both within their schools and also within the Department of Education and Youth. SNA members cited the fact that the minimum educational qualification required on appointment had not been reviewed or changed since 1979 and was still set at a requirement for three D-grade passes in the then junior cycle. They also highlighted that most SNAs had on their own time and at their own expense successfully achieved a QQI level 6 qualification. The failure to recognise the academic achievements of SNAs was demoralising and symptomatic of the lack of recognition and respect afforded to them. SNA members highlighted the absence of any structured professional training for SNAs and contrasted this with provision for teachers in the same schools.
The insecure employment of SNAs was another deeply felt concern for our members. Each year, the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, publishes SNA allocations and each year SNAs wait anxiously for the allocations to be published to find out if they still have a job in the forthcoming school year. Members questioned why SNAs were not permitted to discuss the needs of students with parents or guardians given that they were the staff working so closely with the students every day. They felt that they were not trusted or valued enough to even transmit or provide feedback on day-to-day issues that might help the student and also help teachers. SNAs felt excluded from school life and did not believe they were seen as equal members of the school community. They said that they were seen as unqualified and untrained staff and were not treated with respect.
SNA terms and conditions were seen as being inferior to those of teachers in many respects, such as no study leave, inferior illness leave, inferior maternity provisions and more besides. Every SNA we spoke to resented the manner in which school employers were using their 72-hour obligation to compel SNAs to undertake work unrelated to the needs of their students - often trivial and demeaning work. SNAs were rostered for these hours even when no appropriate work could be found. Some schools seemed to believe that ignoring the clear provisions of national circulars on this issue was acceptable. It was not, and it remains an issue of concern for all our members, who have no objection to carrying out work that benefits students or improves the service available within the school. Cleaning, gardening, washing cars and cleaning out fishtanks are all examples previously cited to this committee of the inappropriate work foisted upon SNAs. In post-primary schools, SNAs were compelled to attend the school in June even when no students with additional needs were due to attend. Again, demeaning and inappropriate work was and is foisted on SNAs. This practice causes a genuine sense of grievance as teachers are not required to attend the school in June if there are no students on the premises.
SNAs were also concerned that local recruitment practices were often not transparent, with no central oversight of the selection process. Fórsa secured a commitment to review and renegotiate the national SNA contract in 2021 as part of the prevailing public service pay agreement. Discussions on the new contract have been slow and not enough progress has been made. Several outstanding items have yet to be addressed, including the following issues. Health and safety leave for pregnant SNAs is capped at 21 days, whereas similar health and safety leave for teachers is not capped. The SNA occupational injury arrangements are far inferior to those under the scheme recently agreed for teachers. Commitments to apply the same terms for SNAs and teachers have simply not been met. The SNA assault leave scheme continues to cause concern due to the inappropriate criteria that precludes an SNA from obtaining any assistance following an injury at work while working with students unless the injury is described as an assault. In many instances, injuries that arise while working with a student are accidental and SNAs do not feel in any way comfortable filling in the required documentation declaring that the student with whom they work daily has assaulted them. Teachers no longer have to go through such a process. SNAs remain locked out of the same occupational injury benefits.
Fórsa also has claims pending for parity with teaching colleagues in respect of a range of leave entitlements listed in the submission. While progress on renegotiating the national SNA contract has been very slow, Fórsa acknowledges that the forthcoming special needs assistant workforce development plan is intended to address many of the issues SNAs have highlighted over recent years. We compliment the Department of Education and Youth on the constructive approach taken in discussions with Fórsa and also with many other stakeholders that have participated in the process. The workforce development plan needs to deliver genuine changes to the way SNAs are viewed, valued and treated within schools. It must recognise and acknowledge the vital role SNAs carry out and redefine the role setting out the value SNAs bring in assisting and supporting students. We believe that for the first time, SNAs should be acknowledged for the significant input they have in supporting student learning and development, not least by facilitating students accessing the curriculum. Heretofore, the role of the SNA has been described as solely limited to meeting the physical care needs of students. Discussions thus far indicate that the Department is ready to recognise that while meeting care needs is an essential component of the role of the SNA, it is not their only function. They have a role in supporting teachers and assisting students with learning and development. If this change is made, it will greatly enhance the standing of SNAs in schools and increase respect for their role.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry to interrupt Mr. Pike. What he is saying is very important; however, we are conscious of time and the flow of the meeting. We have a facility whereby the remainder of Mr. Pike's speech can be read into the official record and remain there forever. It has been circulated to members, who have already read it. If Mr. Pike does not mind, we might go to Ms Cockerill and in questioning elicit more information to allow the meeting to flow. The statements will be published on the website. For anyone following this, the full transcript of what Mr. Pike said and was going to say will be included in the body of the transcript of this meeting. Apologies. I invite Ms Cockerill to make her opening statement. She has five minutes.
Ms Caroline Cockerill:
I thank the committee for the opportunity to address members today. I am speaking as a teacher, a parent of autistic children and an autistic person myself who has navigated our school system. I am also here on behalf of Embrace Autism, a support group in Drumcondra that, like many around the country, seeks to support autistic people and their parents in their local area. The additional needs or special needs assistant is one of the most vital supports we provide to children with additional needs. SNAs make it possible for many students to access education on an equal footing with their peers, yet the system that sustains these roles is under strain.
The limits on recruitment and retention have become persistent challenges and the children who rely on these professionals feel the impact most acutely. Additionally, I am deeply concerned about the NCSE’s recently published SNA review process for 2025-26 guidelines. These changes pose a risk of serious harm to children with additional needs and their families while continuing to increase pressure on schools already at breaking point in trying to support children’s needs. First, there are narrowed criteria and rigid timelines. Applications for review must be submitted between 15 September and 24 October, which does not allow for a mid-year review and any needs that may arise after this, especially considering the initial settling-in period for infants.
Another big concern is that SNA allocations are now unified across mainstream and special classes. The level of need in an autism or special class is often much higher than in mainstream and rightly was previously subject to a separate process and review. Under the new guidelines, though, if an extra SNA is needed in an autism class, it is expected that they will be taken from mainstream first. This seems to be robbing Peter to pay Paul and pits one child’s disability against another.
Let us consider the reality of what this means. A child in mainstream could be just about coping in a busy and demanding class and their safe person who supports them, along with other children, will be removed and redeployed to a different area. This could cause serious anxiety for that child and hinder their ability to access the curriculum. The needs of the child in question may not be as visible or vocal. It is utterly unfair to make principals of schools make these decisions on whose need is greatest when we should be empowering them to support all children adequately. This is nothing more than a question of money and will. It is a decision based on budgetary constraints to move around the deckchairs as opposed to the will to properly fund and support the true need.
Educators around the country are seeing the strain on schools as they scramble to cover the breadth of needs across an entire school with the limited number of SNAs allocated and the NCSE has now made it more difficult to access an increase in SNAs by narrowing the criteria for which they are granted. Teachers are being stretched beyond their training to meet complex needs, often with no additional adult support in the classroom, which is damaging their ability to teach the entire class. Behavioural challenges only increase with limited support. I stress this is not the child’s fault but is the reflection of their unmet need. Of course, it results in continued disruption to the entire teaching day and the whole class.
Mothers and fathers are also seeing the anxiety on a child’s face daily when their needs are not being sufficiently supported or when a familiar support suddenly vanishes. Not only as a mother but as an autistic person who navigated our school system unsupported and who personally struggled to attend school and ended up with severe anxiety, I can understand how children in mainstream whose disability may not be as visible feel and how terrifying and isolating that treatment can be. There is no doubt that the number of SNAs has dramatically increased since I was in school. However, that is only catching up to the previous chronic and complete failure in the system. The present now recognises the vital role that SNAs play in supporting the needs and complexity of issues for children but this only continues to increase. We need more SNAs. Our children deserve more. It is as simple as that.
Individual schools are constantly fighting for the resourcing they need to support the children coming into them. There is a disconnect between what the NCSE deems worthy of support and the cold, hard reality that schools are facing on the ground. My children and thousands of others do not need isolated acts of kindness. They need a system that ensures reliable, skilled assistance throughout their educational journey. When we strengthen SNA recruitment and retention, we strengthen the very foundation of inclusive education. Focuses on this are investments in equity and dignity, and in the potential of every young person. I urge this committee to continue reviewing and enhancing the national strategy with urgency and ambition. Let us build a future where every child, regardless of neurotype or ability, has the consistent support they deserve and where parents can trust that their children’s needs will not be overlooked when they change classrooms, schools or life stages.
The State has, at best, a chequered past in terms of looking after the most vulnerable in society, an attitude that has sometimes involved doing the bare minimum or consigning those of difference to the dustbin. The entire concept of not leaving children behind, supporting them inclusively through all efforts and stages of their education and accepting and championing diversity is at the very heart of what SNAs bring to the education system and to children’s lives. The opportunity to lean in and support this to a greater extent is not one that the State should let pass it by. I thank committee members for their attention and their commitment to the children of Ireland.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Cockerill and Mr. Pike. I thank all the witnesses for their contributions, whether delivered or not. Their contributions will be on the transcript and a part of the full record of the meeting. I thank them.
We have quite a number of members here today. As always, unfortunately, the clock is against us. It will be four minutes per contribution. Some parties may not have a member present in the room yet so I will move a party colleague into that slot. We will get through all members as quickly as we can. I call on Deputy O'Meara.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Would the Chair mind telling us the running order?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It is there. The Deputy can come up if she wishes to view it. She will be the tenth contributor. I call Deputy O'Meara.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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The ladies and gentlemen are welcome. I thank them for their submissions and statements. I will start with the minimum entry qualifications, which have not changed since 1979. I would like an answer and an overview as to how the job has changed since 1979 before we go further.
Mr. Andy Pike:
I thank the Deputy. The role of the SNA in 1979 was very different. It was a role primarily based on meeting physical care needs. Today, SNAs are responsible for supporting students in many other ways, including a range of supports that relate to emotional support and the administration of medications. There are some very complex needs in our schools. A body of knowledge is required before an SNA can practise at a level where they can meet those complex needs. The job has become more complex. Many more students in our schools are accessing mainstream classes and special classes, whereas in 1979, the route into a school for them was much more difficult. The role is much more complex, which is reflected by the research into the academic achievements of the current SNA workforce. Two thirds of them or more have completed a relevant educational programme that is at least at QQI level 6. Many have completed programmes at QQI levels 7 and 8. The role has evolved considerably. Unfortunately, the qualification has not kept pace. It is still at the three Ds in the old junior cycle.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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On that exact point, has Fórsa engaged with the Department about how it would like that minimum entry requirement to be increased?
Mr. Andy Pike:
We have over a number of years suggested to the Department of Education and Youth that the entry qualification should be revised to a relevant QQI level 6 award. We believe that will happen. It may require transitional arrangements because if it comes in too quickly, we could have a problem with the recruitment of SNAs unless it is signalled in advance that to become an SNA you need a relevant level 6 qualification. That requirement may not come in overnight or next September. There might have to be transitional arrangements. However, in the future, we believe it will become a job that requires a relevant level 6 qualification. We think we are nearly there in that regard.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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Has Mr. Pike any thoughts on what continuing professional development, CPD, will look like for SNAs?
Mr. Andy Pike:
We do. The current 72-hour obligation should be replaced with an arrangement that facilitates CPD. There is a national SNA training programme, which has now trained over 4,000 SNAs. That is at QQI level 6. That involves 80 hours of face-to-face tuition and lectures, and much more besides by self-directed study. Study such as that should come in under a new arrangement that replaces the 72 hours.
There is also a range of courses that could be provided through education centres. The courses would need to be specific to the needs of the students in each school, which may differ. There is a need for specific courses where a school population includes students who are hard of hearing, deaf or visually impaired. Specialist training in those areas should be available to SNAs and should be provided.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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I am trying to figure out how job security would work for SNAs, considering it is only year by year that we know how many hours and SNAs a school is going to have. How are we looking at trying to give that security to SNAs, year on year, so they know if they will be in a school again?
Mr. Andy Pike:
To avoid the inherent precarious employment that SNAs have experienced since 1979, we have agreed in principle a redeployment scheme. If the number of SNAs needed in any single school decreases in a given year, those SNAs can be redeployed to a school where new SNA posts are being established or, indeed, where a vacancy arises, in the same way as teachers have the ability to be redeployed. That will be a game-changer for SNAs.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Pike. Ms Cockerill raised the issue of the anxiety and disruption that kids face when SNAs are moved or changed, particularly within a school. What are her thoughts as to how arrangements can be more focused on the child and the disruption can be limited?
Ms Caroline Cockerill:
It is hard on the ground in schools. Principals have to decide where is the greatest level of need. That can change on any given day. It has happened many times in our school that someone has rung in sick or you cannot get a substitute SNA because he or she has not been vetted to work in your school. My child has lower support needs so his SNA might be removed and sent downstairs. That might happen at the last minute so he does not know what is happening. That causes massive anxiety and feeds into the rest of his day. It impacts his whole day in school. Making it easier to get substitute SNAs would be one measure. We need more bodies and more SNAs in the school. We need more adults in the school. We cannot adopt a total model of inclusivity without the presence of more adults.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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I thank everybody for coming. I thank Ms Cockerill for her great introduction. She mentioned the disconnect between the NCSE criteria and the reality on the ground. I spent all morning yesterday in a school trying to figure this out and I have a lot to say to the NCSE witnesses who will be before the committee later today. I have two folders of information on a school where a principal is trying to get extra SNAs. That is the level of difficulty involved. It is so frustrating. We sometimes see things that are wrong. What changes would Ms Cockerill like to see to the allocation model to make it more responsive to children's needs? The principal in the school to which I referred has spent considerable time over the past year and a half trying to get one more SNA.
It is a DEIS 1 school with at least 16 children who need SNAs and there are three in the school at the moment. One would make a difference. They are paying for one privately at the moment. What changes would the witnesses like to see in how SNAs are allocated?
Ms Caroline Cockerill:
At the moment, it very much focuses on complex care needs, which is important, but there are a lot more needs presenting in schools now. There are a lot more invisible disabilities and those kinds of disabilities have a great impact on mental health. The criteria need to be widened because SNAs are not just dealing with children with complex care needs anymore; they are dealing with a wide breadth of needs across schools.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Yes, absolutely. In the school I was referring to, there is one teacher trying to learn the Lámh manual so that they can communicate with a child who is completely non-verbal and the said child does not get an SNA.
Ms Cockerill said something in response to my colleague about vetting. My understanding is that you do not have to be vetted for every school you work in.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Is that changing? In future, could you be vetted for a county? For every school you go to work in, you must get vetted for each one individually.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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It requires a change in legislation.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Nelson Murray. The next speaker is from Sinn Féin, Senator Tully.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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I have to speak in the Seanad in a few moments but I will ask some questions. I thank both witnesses for their presentations and for being here with us today.
In recent days I have had a lot of contact from school principals, SNAs and parents who are concerned about the new criteria being introduced by the NCSE, which have been referred to, and about a reduction following a review. I do not know how this can make any sense. If a new student who requires SNA support comes into a school in the middle of November because they have moved into the area, does this mean that a school cannot apply for additional support for that child, or another SNA if one is needed? Is that Ms Cockerill's understanding of it?
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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The review process is very poor at the moment. I know one principal who went to a review in March. He sat down with the SENO because he knew students were coming into junior infants in September who required support. There were three with quite complex needs, but when he got his allocation at the end of June, there was no change to it. When you contact the NCSE, they say it can be appealed and the school could have a review in August. That is after the school has gone through the review process. What was the point of all of that?
In a secondary school with more than 650 students, there is only one SNA in the whole school. The school reckons that about 100 students require support but, again, it has been refused.
I know we will hear from the Department. Ms Cockerill states the limits on recruitment and retention have become persistent challenges, yet when the Department and the NCSE will be in for the second session, they will say there is no issue with recruitment or retention. Could she just expand on that?
An SNA told me last night that she is on a WhatsApp group with 400 SNAs, and they are all subs.
Ms Caroline Cockerill:
I do not think there is a problem recruiting. We can get SNAs but the issue is how many schools are allowed to have. If the number of SNAs was expanded, we would have no problem in getting people to fill those jobs. It is just that we are only allowed to have so many, and we are only allowed to retain so many. We need more.
Mr. Andy Pike:
The retention of SNAs is primarily an issue around redundancy. A school that applies for an exceptional review runs the risk that the assessment will determine it has too many. The recent guidelines issued by the NCSE bring forward the timescales to ensure that schools receive notification of their SNA allocations at the same time as they do their special education teachers. In previous years it has been June before SNAs know if they have got a job in September. That is not acceptable, so something has to be done.
In terms of the criteria being narrowed, one would worry if a school that is opening new special classes can only staff that special class by moving SNAs who are currently supporting students in mainstream. There is a serious question for the Department and the NCSE to answer around what their policy is. Two or three years ago it was about building up capacity in mainstream and inclusion in mainstream classes, but now it seems to be the reverse. Nobody knows really where they are with the Department's overall policy.
The biggest issue around the retention of SNAs is the risk of redundancy. That is why redeployment is crucial.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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From talking to SNAs, they are really concerned by what Mr. Pike refers to, which is that the needs of the class of autistic students will be perceived to be greater than the need in mainstream and students in mainstream will not be able to cope.
Another issue is that a lot of students start school without assessments because there is a backlog in assessments and therefore the need for an SNA is not being identified, even though they clearly need one. Could Mr. Pike see us moving to a situation where the Department and the NCSE will listen better to school principals and teachers when they say a student needs an SNA?
Mr. Andy Pike:
The previous system requiring professional reports and a diagnosis was really disadvantageous for less well-off families because certain families could pay for reports privately. If you had to rely on HSE disability services, you could be waiting until your child finished post-primary education before you got the report. Again, something has to be done about that. Waiting for professional reports really short-changes people.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Tully. I will wrap that up. I call Senator Curley.
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe ar fad as ucht na dtaispeántas sin. I thank Mr. Pike and Ms Cockerill for their presentations. They have given a lot of very valuable insight. Data we have gathered suggest that 94% of SNAs in the country are female. Do the witnesses agree with that? Is that the picture they see on the ground?
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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I was a secondary schoolteacher for the guts of 12 years – 11 and a half years. On one particular occasion, a male student became very distressed. A female SNA was left traumatised with the efforts she had to make to try and comfort the child and look after him. We have a huge issue in the country with that imbalance whereby 94% of SNAs in the country are female. I will direct the question to both witnesses. What step do they think we need to take as the public representatives who are engaging with this to try and rebalance that?
Mr. Andy Pike:
If the job of an SNA was seen as a career with a pathway to promotion, as is the case with most if not every other job in the public service, that would help to increase diversity. If the Department and the NCSE could focus on role models who are women and men from different backgrounds, that would assist in promoting diversity. Having a gender mix in the SNA workforce is pretty important because it is also about role models as well, and if there are not role models within the SNA workforce, it is not reflective of society as a whole. We are working with the Department on trying to foster greater diversity but unless terms and conditions improve and there is somewhere to go after ten years as an SNA, which there is not at the moment, it is not going to be an attractive career option.
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Pike. I would welcome a response from Caroline.
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Cockerill. On the topic of menial labour and the demeaning roles that have, at times, been passed down to SNAs, I agree that we need more training and higher skills attainment among SNAs. A good SNA can be incredibly impactful for good in the classroom. I have seen it at first hand. I have been a teacher who, literally, relied on them like a crutch. I have also seen the incredible damage that can be done, through no fault of the SNA, who is just not empowered with the skill set to be a force for good in the classroom when they do not know how to deal with a situation.
I agree that there is a need for higher attainment. At the same time, instances such the fish tank episode that Andy mentioned, where somebody was made to clean the fish tank, is demeaning. It erodes trust in the education system as a public body. Could the witnesses give one example of a school that has done that, so we as politicians can tackle it head-on and get to the root source of it? It should not be happening.
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Offline is fine. I am not asking for a headline or trying to make a public quagmire of this but we need to go to the root source of this and tackle it. No SNA should be out in a school yard cleaning a fish tank while a child who is relying on him or her for help is inside, suffering.
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that, thanks. I am out of time now but I might come back in a second time later on.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Thanks Senator. Just to reiterate, we are not going to name any schools here today.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for being here. There has been a huge amount of consternation in relation to the new guidelines for reviewing SNA allocations. Our guests have articulated the issues well in terms of the narrow timeline but I want to focus on the criteria. What I am hearing from SNAs is that it does not reflect the work they do in the real world. My experience as a constituency TD has been that more and more the NCSE is saying that children who are getting SNA supports in school should not really have it and that the resource needs to be redirected to children who have category three, or complex, care needs. I want to pick up on the last comment from Mr. Pike. He said that there is a growing realisation within the Department of the wider remit but for me, that is not reflected at all within the guidelines for SNA allocations. What sense is there that we are moving in a direction that might reflect what SNAs actually do in the real world?
Mr. Andy Pike:
First, the debate around the current guidelines is really helpful but this is just the NCSE restating the criteria for receipt of SNA support that has been there since 2014. It is nothing new. It is quite harsh but it has not changed. The NCSE is just reiterating what has always been there.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Pike think there is a stricter application of it?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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It is about constraints and rationing-----
Mr. Andy Pike:
Yes, and tightening up. The quick answer to the Deputy's second question is that we do believe there is a realisation that once SNAs are in schools, they do a lot more than just meet physical care needs. There is a whole range of things that SNAs do that supports students and enables them to have a really beneficial educational experience. However, the gateway is still the criteria of an assessment of additional care needs and very often that is around whether there are any physical care needs, medical issues, a need for the administration of medication and so on. It is still the old criteria and those boxes need to be ticked to get a new SNA into a school. Once he or she is there, the role is now much expanded.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, the role is much expanded and that is a practical difficulty that I see in many schools, particularly when reviews are under way. I have said it publicly previously that there are major problems with these guidelines. They should be parked and there should be further engagement. We need to have a proper discussion on the actual role of SNAs and rather than rationing and restricting, we need to look at a pathway to providing the necessary supports that children in our schools need. I also know from speaking to teachers that the implications for them and for principals in terms of the expectation that they would deal with behavioural issues and so on, are a major concern.
Finally, I want to refer to the question of occupational injury leave. There was a presentation on this in the audiovisual room recently and there is Labour Party legislation on the books here. Has there been any progress in relation to that and why is it important?
Ms Carol McSherry:
A lot of it comes back to not enough bodies. There are problems with the assault leave system. First, the name of the circular is insulting to the children we work with. I have talked to many SNAs who are not prepared to claim assault leave because they do not want to say that a child assaulted them. They are injured while they are doing their job. We do not have occupational health leave as teachers do. If we had that, we would not have this situation where we have to say that we were assaulted. It stops people from claiming it.
Mr. Pike mentioned that pregnant SNAs only get 21 days health and safety leave. For me, one of the main issues with assault leave is that there are not enough bodies in the schools. It is not always down to training but is down to the fact that while we know there is a problem, we have to spread people who are there to meet care needs across a whole school. It is difficult for principals. Indeed, it is difficult for everybody.
Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I thank our guests for their contributions and welcome them all here. I was somewhat concerned by Mr. Pike's opening statement when I heard that people felt excluded, unequal, unqualified and untrained and that they just did not fit in. That is a massive deficit. It really concerns me that this would be happening in today's world. I had the benefit and the pleasure of sitting on interview panels in the past, interviewing for such posts. Extraordinary candidates came forward for SNA positions. The level of knowledge they had and the interest they showed was remarkable. If someone asked me whether SNAs were manufactured or born, I would say they were born. Some people are absolutely brilliant and can make exceptional SNAs. I have discovered that in recent times. I have come across people who would never have considered being an SNA and they are doing an absolutely outstanding job. The person who benefits the most is the student in their care and anything that can be done in support of the person who is providing that care should and must be done, whether that is in relation to terms and conditions or changes to policies within schools. That has to be paramount. I do not have any questions per se. From my perspective, given the knowledge that I have of SNAs, they do an absolutely outstanding job. Only last week I attended a special opening of a school in Tuam and saw the compelling work and the way the SNAs engaged with the children entrusted to them by their families in the morning. We cannot pay people to do such a magnificent job and as I said earlier, it concerns me hugely that the findings of research suggest that the people doing all of that work felt disrespected and that they did not fit in. We have a body of work to do to make sure that the systems that support that are changed.
Mr. Andy Pike:
Very briefly.in response, as I said a few minutes ago, we have been working with the Department of education on the workforce development review. The Department's own research confirms what we knew about how SNAs felt about being excluded and not being full members of the school community. Work is under way to try to put that right but it is more of a culture change that has to happen. Yes, terms and conditions are vital but it also about the way in which we all think about the role of the SNA. Do we think about the role and the people in the same way as we would about teachers? There is a bit of an organisational mind shift required across the whole sector. Qualifications do play a huge part. If people are seen as being qualified members of staff, the way they are included and treated is often very different than if they are untrained or unqualified.
Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I love it when I hear people say they have found the job that they always craved as an SNA. I love to hear that.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I thank our guests for their contributions this morning. We have had discussions about the 72-hour obligation and how some of the work is unrelated, trivial and demeaning. Only yesterday in the Seanad I raised the issue of school dinners for a lot of small schools. They have been told by providers that they cannot be provided with hot meals any more because their numbers were below the threshold required in order to have someone to administer those dinners. My argument was that the principals and administrative staff were going above and beyond to deliver for their students.
It is the very same as the SNA teachers; they are always thinking of the students. That is where I am coming from with this. That is the vocation of the job that a lot of these people choose.
Mr. Pike mentioned the workforce development review. Will he enlighten us on what Fórsa's recommendations and contribution to that review were?
Mr. Andy Pike:
We wanted to start with the minimum essential qualification. We have made a lot of progress with that. The committee will hear from the Department in the next session, but it was a priority to get the qualification up to QQI level 6. To be honest, it could have gone to level 7 or above but, from where it is now, an appropriate step is to QQI level 6. We will then see what the future holds. We wanted to address precarious employment, so the redeployment arrangements were critical. We also want a new dispensation to replace the 72 hours that are based on continuing professional development, CPD. That requires a training, learning and development framework that the Department is working on.
The role of the SNA is also under review. We are working towards redefining the role, to an extent, in a new circular. That will not necessarily change the reality of what SNAs do, but perhaps it is time we think to do things like acknowledge the fact they support learning and development. It is not just care needs. If we can get that into a circular-----
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry to interrupt. Were qualifications, redeployment, CPD and defining the role itself Fórsa's main contribution to the review?
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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On what Ms Cockerill said, we have obviously seen an increase in the number of SNAs throughout the sector. Is that number still adequate? What scale of expansion does she envision as necessary?
Ms Caroline Cockerill:
From personal experience, I do not think the number is adequate. As mentioned, a lot of children are forced into mainstream because there are no special class places. The school is then trying to scramble. Our own school applied for a review last year and got no increase in SNAs. We are now trying to scramble and move the SNAs around from children who are deemed to not have the greatest need to meet others' needs. If the role is redefined, it may redefine how they are given to schools.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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Ms Cockerill said we need more SNAs. Our figures show us that the majority of SNAs already have QQI level 6 qualifications. If the standard or requirement is brought up to that, will it affect the supply of SNAs? How do the witnesses see that?
Joe Conway (Independent)
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I will preface these few remarks by stating that I was a primary school principal for 19 years. Subsequent to that, I worked at one of the colleges of education, which gave me almost daily access to primary schools around the country - all over the country, really. In view of that, I heard mention, shortly after I came in, of tasks designated to SNAs that were inappropriate and below their competency levels, such as car washing, fish tank cleaning and gardening. Subsequent to that, my colleague, Senator Curley, instanced that he would like some corroboration of that. From maintaining contact with principals and school staff in the interim since I left the classroom and the school, those sort of tasks being attributed and allocated to SNAs is not a scenario I recognise. I am very pleased that Mr. Pike assured us it is not anecdotal and that he will supply us, offline, with corroborated instances of such behaviour. It is not good enough to just throw it out at the committee and for it to go on the record of the Houses that such behaviour is countenanced in schools. I certainly look forward to the corroboration and the evidence, privately, in the fullness of time.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Has the Senator finished his contribution?
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I have to say that was a strange sole contribution. We have to take people at their word when they come in here. We can assume that SNAs are being given those roles. I have talked to people myself. I congratulate Fórsa on the school secretaries' and caretakers' strike and the progress it made, but during that we spoke to people on the picket lines who talked about principals who are getting student teachers to put bins out. All sorts of things go on in schools and we all know that can happen.
I will talk about the role of the SNA. There is no question that it goes way beyond the physical care needs of students. I was in a secondary school where you would not really be dealing with the care needs of a student. It was more about accompanying students around the school - there can be 1,000 or 1,500 people in some schools now - helping them navigate their way through all the different classes and through noisy corridors, assisting them to stay on task, helping them to emotionally regulate by bringing them out when needed and helping them with the work. I would not be able to help students with some secondary school work in different subjects that I do not teach. That is very demanding. How can you actually help students if you cannot help them with the work? It is way past time that this has happened. SNAs also help the whole class. From my experience, the SNAs knew everyone in the class and helped everyone in the class, in reality.
There is always great concern about feminised workforces. It is the same in teaching. We have this "Oh God, crisis" because there are no male role models. That would be sorted out very quickly with pay. It is that simple word. If we pay people more, men will go into those professions. Obviously, I agree about the career ladder.
I have a couple of questions. On job security, and maybe Mr. Pike could answer this one, why is it that a student is in a school for five to six years, but the SNA is on a year-on-year contract? That does not make any sense and there is no justification for it in terms of the Department of education. Why has that happened?
Mr. Andy Pike:
On Senator Conway's point, this is not the first time abuse of the 72 hours has been raised at this committee. A lot of research evidence is available. We will happily provide the same.
On job security, precarious employment is simply because each year the NCSC, in previous incarnations, assessed the level of SNAs needed in a school. During the period of austerity between 2010 and 2015, the NCSC, on a regular basis, reduced the number of jobs available. It was an employment model that allowed the Department of education to dispense with SNAs, if it got a signal from the NCSC that they were not needed after 12 months. That is why the precarious employment model was there. We think it is high time we move to a service-based approach, with an assessment of how many SNAs will be needed on a permanent basis in each school, rather than year-on-year assessments that could result in redundancy or redeployment.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Does Ms McSherry believe that SNAs are sufficiently trained? Does she have any suggestions for the type of training that people could get?
Ms Carol McSherry:
A poll was done. Currently, two thirds of the SNAs who are in the workforce have a level 6 qualification. We always have to upskill. That is the thing. It is why we need CPD. A child might come in for whom you need to learn, Irish Sign Language, ISL. We have to always be prepared to upskill all the time. There is a huge willingness. At the moment, most of us are paying for a lot of the courses ourselves. I have done the UCD course, but you have to be an SNA to do that course. It is excellent and is now available at St. Angela's. As someone pointed out this week, what we are trained for in the UCD SNA course would not be covered in the circular.
It is far beyond what is in Circular 0030/2014. It is very ironic. I would say we are well qualified.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The next few questions are from myself. Like others, I was a teacher for many years and worked for a period as an SNA prior to that. I place huge value on it. Indeed, my classroom could not have functioned for those 16 years but for the times I had an SNA in the room helping children to be part of the class, to be part of the curriculum, and to go home happy.
My first question is to the Fórsa representatives. Is there is an embargo on SNA recruitment? I ask this because like many TDs I had to battle over the summer to get an SNA appointed to a school. I was told by the NCSE that there was an embargo. I said that I had heard of an embargo in the HSE but not heard of an embargo with the appointment of SNAs. They said to get on to managers up along the chain. I did all of that and I raised it with all levels of management. Eventually I got on to the Minister and no one said there was an embargo. Would Fórsa say there is an embargo in name or in practice at the moment?
Mr. Andy Pike:
I do not believe there is an embargo but there is a cap. At every budget the Government announces the number of additional SNA posts that will be allocated into the school system but one cannot go beyond that cap. If the budget last year said there would be 1,600 new posts, regardless of the level of need, one cannot go beyond that to go to 1,601. In a way we do get to an embargo situation when they have allocated all of the available posts to mainstream and special schools and there is none left in the kitty. Then it becomes, in effect, a cap or an embargo.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Ms Cockerill's perspective on this is really good. Ms Cockerill is a teacher, the parent of a child with autism, she herself has autism, and is an advocate.
I want to ask you about the role of SENOs. I want to put on record that I value what SENOs do. They have an important role and many of them play a very positive role. I have, however, seen SENOs weigh in on situations where they may not fully understand the child whom they may have observed across a ten- or 15-minute period. They have not gotten a proper snapshot of what that child's needs are and how they can be met. I made the point in this committee room some months ago that SENOs have the role of God when it comes to a child's future. I think that some of them exceed what their actual remit is. I am a primary school teacher by profession but I would not go down the street to Holles Street hospital and start telling the surgeons "In my opinion you are doing this wrong and I am overriding your opinion". I would not cross the city to the Four Courts to take on a judge and override his or her opinion because I am not qualified in that area. Yet, week in, week out we are seeing SENOs around the country dismissing psychological reports. These are reports that have been made under clinical observation. I know that SENOs have an important skillset. They are important cogs in this whole process but there is a principle in law, surely, that you cannot dismiss someone's report and rubbish their recommendations of additional technology or SNA support. You cannot dismantle those recommendations unless you are equally, if not superiorly, qualified to that person. What would Ms Cockerill think about that?
Ms Caroline Cockerill:
I would agree with that. I know SNAs and parents who have found SENOs very intimidating and have been afraid to approach SENOs. I agree they come in and it is all down to budgets at the end of the day. I feel that they come in, they see a child for a couple of minutes and they can dismiss or make recommendations based on that. I do not think they have the full picture and often they are not clear on what the reality is on the ground. You can get some very good SENOs and some very difficult SENOs. I agree that people do find that SENOs can make snap decisions without the full picture sometimes.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I will conclude my contribution by saying that if it is clearly recommended by an educational psychologist that a child should have an SNA, in my opinion - I was a teacher not an educational psychologist - the only person who can contradict that is another educational psychologist who can, maybe, professionally contradict or override someone else. Certainly in my opinion, a SENO cannot step in and override that or deny the child what has been clinically recommended for them.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in today. I am delighted to see them all here. As some of the witnesses know, I was a Fórsa member so I have had plenty of engagement with SNAs over many years - I do not know how long at this stage. At the outset I will say that I have had many people contacting me with regard to the SNA review. I brought that up yesterday in the Dáil and I will bring it up with the witnesses later.
For those who are asking for evidence about the way SNAs are treated - the people in question are not here now - it goes back to the Respect for SNAs campaign that had to be launched a number of years ago when there was no respect for SNAs, as is sometimes still the case. Will the witnesses who are SNAs tell the committee what that would look like now? That campaign was so good at looking at how SNAs should be treated and can be treated. Qualifications were mentioned here a few times. A person can have the best qualifications in the world but if he or she does not have the personality and the heart to go with their work as an SNA, it does not matter if they have level 19 because they are not going to be the right person for the job. Having said that, continuous professional development and qualifications for any member of a school staff working with children with additional needs are so important. I want to say this because I was quite furious earlier as I listened to those contributions. I am sad they are not here to hear that. Maybe they might listen back. How would the SNAs see the Respect for SNAs campaign now? I will stop talking after this question. For people who do not understand what that campaign might have meant - it was about the respect that is needed - can Ms McSherry and Ms Quirke speak about how the campaign worked?
Ms Carol McSherry:
I was part of the campaign and there are other people here who were part of that campaign. We worked together. We contacted every TD and Senator in Ireland. It was during Covid time so we did Zoom meetings but it really brought us together. We got to know one another and we saw that we actually had a voice. It was very empowering.
As a union rep I can tell the committee that this week alone we have received a number of queries on the June working and the 72 hours. A lot of the time it is just due to a lack of education. People equate the 72 hours with the Croke Park agreement on teacher hours. The members come to us in confidence and ask us to give them advice they can bring back. Overall the campaign was fantastic. It paved the way for the contract renegotiation and it unified us as a group.
Ms Catherine Quirke:
The campaign gave SNAs a voice. Before that they were afraid and they just took whatever was thrown at them. By working together and saying "Yes we deserve respect", they knew their campaign could succeed. This is why we are getting so many emails because SNAs are questioning what they need to do. They are asking whether they have to go out and sweep the yard or do similar things. At least they now have some place to come and ask for advice. People are starting to sit up. There is still an awful lot of people out who are not respecting SNAs. When a person gets to the end of a ladder and is on the last rung, some SNAs feel they are 3 feet underneath that. This is not what anyone should feel in any job.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses. If anyone else would like to comment, there is a bit of time. I have spoken enough. Does anyone else want to say anything?
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise for being late. I was speaking in the Chamber. I read all the opening statements. I have been a primary school teacher and have been working in schools for nearly 20 years. I commend our SNAs. There is no way I could have done my job without the SNAs who were present. They are fantastic. In many schools I saw a lot of SNAs with those 72 hours not put to good use. Myself and my teacher colleagues always encouraged that it should be used for CPD and not for unnecessary meetings, laminating, cutting pieces of paper, cleaning or whatever.
I am curious to hear from the Embrace Autism representatives their opinion on whether there are any gaps that still exist in the training of SNAs when it comes to working with autistic children.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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It is one of the modules.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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Again, it is something those 72 hours could be used for.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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I have a lot of friends who are SNAs and I did not know that SNAs are not allowed to speak to parents about the progress of the children they are working with. In schools I have worked with, the SNAs and parents always had a very close relationship. These SNAs are closest to the children and they are a gateway to meaningful participation in accessing the curriculum. I see it as a sign of disrespect and undermining their vital role in the children's learning and accessing this curriculum. Can Fórsa clarify for me where that is stipulated? Is that a rule or is it at the discretion of the schools or the principals of those SNAs?
Mr. Andy Pike:
Ultimately, it is at the discretion of the board of management and the principal. The work we are doing at the moment with the Department and other stakeholders on this workforce development review is trying to set best practice. We know that in the best schools and good schools, SNAs are fully part of the school community. If they have got some important information from a parent that might be helpful to the team, they would provide it and that is all fine. There are other schools where they are told they cannot talk to parents or guardians and that is a local stipulation. It is important to get something agreed at national level that says that, yes, there is a really critical role for the SNA in liaising with the rest of the school team because they will pick up nuances from students and parents about whether the student has had a bad night or might be a little bit more anxious today. If they are not allowed to get involved in that appropriate communication because of the GDPR or the view that it is the preserve of teachers and teachers only, then the student is missing out and the school is not performing as well as it should.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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The primary school teachers themselves have up to 30 kids and sometimes more in their class, so they might not-----
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Pike for that.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses are very welcome here today. It is extremely worrying when SNAs tell us they feel like second-class citizens in schools. I want to say from the outset that I value not just the role of SNAs but also their contribution to the school classrooms and communities. My children do not have direct access to an SNA but I can tell the witnesses that the names and characters of Betty, Sandra and Corina were fixtures around our dinner table. I am really grateful for that because they have made my children's experience at school more positive. How do the witnesses feel when they hear the role of an SNA being described as solely limited to the physical care needs of students?
Ms Catherine Quirke:
It is just such a small snippet of our day. Your day starts when you see them coming into school. You take one glance at your student and you know whether they are good, bad or iffy, or what their first needs or first port of call are. You try to start their day the right way so as to get the best out of it for them and make them feel safe, happy and secure.
When I started this job, I was the surrogate mammy. I am now the surrogate nanny. That is what we are. We are counsellors; we are mammy. We are the big sister and the protector. They have nothing to fear from us because we are not the teacher. We are not going to be giving them homework or correcting and we are the go-to person. That is important and that is why we need to be able to speak to their parents, so the parents can tell us what their child is because no two kids are the same and no two days are the same. It is an absolutely fantastic job. I love it and I could not imagine doing anything else but there is so much more we do than clean noses.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Does Ms Quirke think that description is a fundamental problem?
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I ask for Ms Cockerill's view.
Ms Caroline Cockerill:
I agree. The SNA has the chance to build that connection with a child that a teacher might not have a chance to build because they have 30 others in the classroom. The SNA is the one who has that connection and relationship with that child who might find school very difficult. You just cannot put a price on that. It is the root of everything. A child needs to be happy in school to learn and the SNA can help facilitate that.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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When the witnesses also hear that the Department has said that there is no difficulty in recruiting or retaining SNAs, do they feel like that is a barrier to the progress that is required?
Mr. Andy Pike:
In a way, it could be seen as a barrier. It is the retention of SNAs that is more of an issue than recruitment at the moment. Over the years, perhaps the recruitment of SNAs has just been something the Department did not have to worry about but in an economy with full employment, this could well be a problem with regard to labour supply. It is something the Department should really begin to look at.
We worry about an SNA who has done all the courses and is very skilled and ambitious but for whom there is nowhere to go. At the moment, there is nothing else for them to do to improve their practice for the benefit of students. We do have a claim pending for posts of responsibility for SNAs and if that can be delivered, it would be the first promotional outlet or opportunity for SNAs we have ever seen.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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In the 20 seconds left, on the workforce development plan, when does Mr. Pike expect to see that?
Mr. Andy Pike:
Yesterday. We hope it will be published as soon as possible, within a matter of weeks. We know it is not always straightforward because a Government Department has to think about things like translation of a final document and there lots of hurdles to clear, but we do need to see the final product soon.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I would suggest, Chair, that when we do see that, we have another meeting to discuss it. I thank the witnesses.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed by all members? Agreed. That will be an action of our committee. I thank Deputy Currie.
As Cathaoirleach, I sincerely thank Ms Quirke, Mr. Pike, Ms McSherry, Ms Cockerill and Ms Crean for being here today and for all of their insights and their engagement. We are sorry about the time constraints; it is just the way this goes. There is a part B to our meeting where we are going to have the NCSE and other officials in here very shortly. I officially thank the witnesses for all they have done here this afternoon and in particular, those who are front-line SNAs for what they are doing day in, day out to keep little children happy and to have them in school doing everything to the best of their ability throughout the day. I sincerely thank them for that.
We will now suspend briefly to allow the officials who are here for session 2 of today's public meeting to take their seats.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Everyone is very welcome. I ask those attending remotely to mute their devices when not contributing so that we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all of those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are either on silent mode or switched off entirely. As the officials are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they will make to this committee. This means that they will have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege. As Cathaoirleach, it is my duty to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity outside of the Houses or an official of the Houses by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
On the agenda for the second part of today's meeting of the committee is current and future plans for the recruitment and retention of special needs assistants, SNAs. We are joined by a number of officials. From the Department of Education and Youth, we have: Mr. James Walsh, principal officer with responsibility for teacher and SNA terms and conditions; Mr. Frank Hanlon, principal officer in the special education division; and Ms Angela Corcoran, principal officer in the same division. From the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, we have the following officials: Mr. John Kearney, CEO; and Ms Helen Walsh, principal officer. They are all very welcome. I apologise; Mr. Andrew Torrance is also here. He is a principal officer with the NCSE. He is also very welcome.
I will now call on Ms Corcoran to make her opening statement. She will have five minutes. Following that, I will call on Mr. Kearney to make his opening statement. He will also have five minutes. The opening statements will be followed by questions from members of the committee.
Ms Angela Corcoran:
I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak today on the important topic of current and future plans for the recruitment and retention of special needs assistants, SNAs. The SNA workforce plays an integral role in delivering a high-quality and inclusive education for children and young people with special educational needs. Every day, SNAs provide essential support in recognised schools by enabling students with significant care needs to access the curriculum and participate fully in school life. The number of SNAs has increased annually to meet the needs of students in primary, post-primary and special schools across the country. Budget 2025 provided for 1,600 SNAs, the largest number ever allocated, which will bring to over 23,000 the number of SNAs in our schools. This is a 40% increase on SNA supports since 2020, reflecting a strong policy commitment by the Government to inclusive education. In budgetary terms, the SNA service represents one of the largest and most consistent investments ever made in supporting children with additional needs.
The National Council for Special Education, NCSE, is responsible for managing SNA allocations, which are notified to schools annually. From 2026 onwards, it is intended to align the release of SNA allocations with the release of annual staffing schedules, which include mainstream and special education teachers, to schools. This normally happens in early February each year. This will allow schools to better plan for their teaching and care needs in a timely manner. It also provides certainty and assurances to affected staff of their future school placements by allowing the SNA redeployment processes to conclude as appropriate. Annual staffing schedules generally issue to schools in February of each year.
Our education system does not have a difficulty with recruitment or retention when it comes to SNAs. Available data and stakeholder feedback indicates SNA courses continue to attract students, schools can fill vacant SNA posts, candidates are coming forward and SNAs are choosing to remain in their roles. The service is operating effectively and children are being supported. Recognising the importance of this growing workforce, as part of a broader expansion of special education supports, the Department established a dedicated SNA workforce development unit in 2022. The objective is to ensure that sufficient time and attention is given to examination of the SNA role and any reform or development required. The SNA workforce development unit is working to conclude the first special needs assistant workforce development plan, which is scheduled to be submitted for the Minister’s consideration shortly. It is envisaged that the plan will introduce policy developments that will bring clarity and direction to the SNA service. It includes consideration of how best school communities and SNAs can work together to ensure that both are supported to provide the most effective service to children with significant care needs in our schools. The plan is being developed in consultation and collaboration with stakeholders including SNAs, school management bodies, unions, schools, parents and children.
One of five pillars to the plan, pillar 4, which relates to SNA recruitment, retention and diversity, is particularly relevant to today’s discussion. A working group comprising relevant stakeholders has considered related matters. While recruitment and retention are not a challenge at present, our focus must be on sustaining this trend through appropriate actions for inclusion in the SNA workforce development plan. Work on a SNA redeployment scheme to be delivered by the National Council for Special Education is under way. It will ensure that competent, knowledgeable and experienced SNAs are retained in our schools when their role is no longer needed due to reasons such as fewer students, reduced care needs or demographic changes. In addition to providing greater job security for SNAs, this will also build capacity in the workforce and enhance the service provided to students and schools.
The role of the SNA requires professional expertise and knowledge across a range of topics, including behaviour, communication strategies and best practice to support children with complex care needs. Access to high-quality training and ongoing professional development ensures that SNAs can continue to build their expertise. It also signals to them that their role is valued and professionalised. Pillar 3 of the SNA workforce development plan will establish an SNA learning and development programme. Actions under this pillar will complement the national training programme for SNAs currently delivered by Atlantic Technological University, which more than 3,800 SNAs have completed to date. The Department of Education and Youth funds this course, which is delivered free of charge to serving SNAs.
Effective recruitment and deployment of SNAs is critical. As their employer, schools need support and guidance to ensure that SNAs are recruited and deployed consistently. When deployed well, SNAs complement the work of teachers and contribute directly to the inclusion of children. Supporting principals and boards of management with good practice in recruitment and deployment remains a priority for the Department and the NCSE.
Increased job security through the SNA redeployment scheme, a structured learning and development programme and support for schools in effective deployment of SNAs will support recruitment and retention. In turn, it will support an inclusive education system where every child with additional needs can participate in school life fully, equally and with dignity.
I thank the committee and I look forward to our discussion.
Mr. John Kearney:
I wish to thank the committee for the kind invitation to be here today, representing the National Council for Special Education. The NCSE was established over 20 years ago to improve the delivery of education services to persons with special educational needs arising from disabilities, with a particular emphasis on young children. In the last decade, a significant and exponential growth in activity in special educational needs has resulted in an 81% increase in special needs assistants, a 40% increase in special education teachers and a five-fold increase in the number of special classes, as well as a doubling of applications for transport and assistive technology. The last decade alone has seen equally phenomenal growth, with 16 new special schools established, almost 1,700 new special classes being delivered and more than 30,500 children in special education placements for the coming academic year, bringing it to a total of 3,700 special classes for this year. Three years ago, governmental support of an enhanced budget of €13.8 million enabled the NCSE to commence a programme of organisational transformation and recruitment, resulting in an expansion of staffing from approximately 265 to 410 to cater for the accelerated growth in special education provision.
The NCSE has a vision of a world-class, inclusive education system for Ireland, where children, young people and adults with special educational needs are supported to achieve better outcomes in their education and are enabled to reach their full and true potential. The NCSE supports schools to enable students with additional needs to develop skills for life so they can participate meaningfully and to their fullest potential in society. The restructuring of the NCSE has effectively enabled the organisation to deliver a multidisciplinary, integrated national programme of teacher professional learning and direct student support.
In the last decade or so, the NCSE has provided six policy advice publications to the Ministers for education across a whole range of areas relevant to the provision of special education. The most recent policy advice on an inclusive education for an inclusive society was presented early last year and was prepared following an extensive period of research, consultation and deliberation undertaken by the NCSE. Great care was taken to establish a strong evidence base to inform this policy advice and involved consultations, school visits and a multi-strand programme of research and deliberation.
There are already exceptionally inclusive practices occurring in our schools right across the country that provide supportive and nurturing learning environments for students. Schools are using innovative approaches to teaching and learning, tailoring interventions to meet students’ needs, and accessing specialist support to ensure that all students have access to the curriculum and achieve their full potential.
Special needs assistants are critical to school inclusive practices and the NCSE commends and celebrates these best practices and seeks to embed them across the entire education system. Recruiting and retaining qualified and competent staff is vital to ensuring a well-resourced and sustainable special needs workforce. It also supports continuity and consistency of service, which is critical to the successful inclusion of students with additional special educational needs in mainstream classes, special schools and special classes.
Last year saw the introduction of Circular 80/24, which enabled the NCSE to have a greater overview of specialist demand at both special class and special school levels. The NCSE established the parents notify system and NCSE special educational needs organisers, SENOs, and team managers worked closely with school leaders, school boards of management and school patrons to establish, with quicker timelines, over 400 sanctioned classes for the Easter period. The NCSE is also supporting the establishment of five new schools in Dublin, Monaghan, Tipperary and Cork. A school circular last May afforded the opportunity of providing strengthened delivery for pupils, parents and schools. All of these measures have greatly assisted the proactive recruitment of special needs assistants.
In addition to the SENO service, the NCSE provides a professional learning programme to all schools nationwide. This programme includes the delivery of seminars, webinars and in-school bespoke training to teachers and whole-school communities. A productive inspector to adviser delivery memorandum of understanding has been established with the inspectorate to enrich inspectorate interdisciplinary report reviews and school-based practices. The NCSE has facilitated the first national special needs assistants training course, developed in collaboration with the school of education in University College Dublin and currently being by delivered by St. Angela's College, Sligo, a college of the Atlantic Technological University. This course has provided training to close to 3,500 special needs assistants in our schools and has assisted our wonderful special needs assistants around the country to have a greater understanding of their students’ strengths and needs.
The Minister for Education and Youth, Deputy McEntee, and the Minister of State for special education and inclusion, Deputy Moynihan, recently published the 2025 education plan. This comprehensive plan outlines an ambition to deliver a world-class education system for Ireland that breaks down barriers and ensures every child can achieve his or her full and true potential. Tying in with the launch of this education plan was the announcement of the SNA redeployment scheme, currently in development, which will further boost SNA recruitment and retention within our schools. The SNA scheme will also increase job security for SNAs and ensure competent and experienced SNAs are retained in our schools.
The NCSE warmly welcomes the opportunity to assist the Joint Committee on Education and Youth on important matters relating to supporting special needs assistant recruitment and retention.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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When the review she referred to is prepared, will Ms Corcoran please send it to the committee because we hope to have a further meeting on this matter in due course? That would be very important to us.
Approximately 11 weeks ago, our committee decided to write to the NCSE seeking very important information, which only came in this morning by email at 8.45 a.m. It is very hard for us as legislators, TDs and Senators, to scrutinise this issue when we are getting information ten or 11 weeks later and minutes before we begin our meeting. That will form some of my line of questioning later. We are all here and trying our best. We are a mixture of TDs and Senators, many of whom are from educational backgrounds, and here on a cross-party basis. We are trying to fight for a better education, the same as the witnesses, but it is really hard to do that body of work when we are getting bits and shreds of information minutes before a meeting begins. We appreciate that there is a summer period and people down tools - no one is saying otherwise - but if we correspond with the NCSE, we would like timely correspondence before we meet.
Mr. John Kearney:
I very much acknowledge that. It is not the normal way the NCSE actually conducts its business. In a sense, it was because the correspondence arrived during the summer period. It was remiss of us on this occasion. It is not the way we intend to engage with parties, certainly not with the joint committee and the important work and deliberations it conducts.
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as ucht na dtaispeántas. In relation to courses such as early childhood care and education, ECCE, child studies and other early years education courses, what on-the-job training does the NCSE facilitate so people can go out on school placements to learn their trade while studying their courses?
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, potential SNAs who are studying childhood courses of whatever nature that are relevant to the role of an SNA. It could be a level eight degree or something in between. What facilitation is put in place to allow them to train in schools?
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms Corcoran think it is good practice that we do not do it right now?
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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The reason I ask is because we have anecdotal evidence of OTs going abroad to study occupational therapy because they are not getting the on-the-job training. If that is happening with SNAs and we are losing them to other countries that bring them into their country, educate them and then bring them into their workforce, we are losing huge talent.
That needs to be addressed. According to a report from the focus group of teachers that was published by the Department in May, there was a need for clarity on the role of SNAs. The vast majority of teachers who partook of that survey indicated that it was problematic that there is no clear definition of the role. What steps have been taken since May to clarify the position?
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that, but I only have four minutes. What steps have the officials taken since May?
Ms Angela Corcoran:
There are five pillars to the plan, the first being to review and develop the SNA role. The second is to develop a quality framework for the SNA workforce. The third is a learning and development framework for the SNA workforce. The fourth is SNA recruitment and retention. The fifth relates to the communications strategy.
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Specifically on the role of the SNA in the classroom-----
Ms Angela Corcoran:
In terms of those pillars, we have established a working group comprising relevant stakeholders, including SNAs, school management bodies and trade unions. We have come together to discuss matters, see where the gaps lie and decide what needs to be done. That will inform actions that we will include in the SNA workforce development plan for the Minister's consideration.
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that. Is there a timeline for when that work will be concluded and when we will have a definition for SNAs going into the workforce?
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Thank you. One issue we discussed earlier with Fórsa is that of gender imbalance in the SNA workforce. According to the current data, 94% of SNAs are female. What steps are being taken by the NCSE or the Department to try to rebalance that and make it a more attractive role for males?
Ms Angela Corcoran:
Again, to recognise that there is a clear imbalance in terms of gender. Clearly, it is desirable that we would redress that balance. In terms of the working group that is set up under pillar 4, we have looked at that and looked at potential actions for inclusion in the plan that will be presented to the Minister in the coming weeks.
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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On a positive note, in the most recent questionnaire, 95% of SNAs reported being at least fairly satisfied with their job. On the negative side, 85% reported feeling at least fairly stressed. A huge issue in that regard is that they do not actually have a full definition of their role in the classroom. That really needs to be addressed. There is a real communications gap where we do not educate SNAs on what their exact job is in the classroom. We are bringing them in on school placements. The Department is not proactively ensuring they get on-the-job training when they pursue courses in early education. As a result, there is huge stress when they start off as SNAs. I have seen newly qualified SNAs come into the classroom and suffer. I have had to try to guide new SNAs as to what their role is. We need to address that.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We may get to that later. There are so many members to come in. Senator Nelson Murray is next.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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I thank the NCSE for all its work. I say that because what I am going to say next will come across as negative. I will refer to one school which I strongly feel has been let down by the system, or perhaps this example will allow the NCSE to continue the good work it is doing, while also realising that when a school is spending weeks and months pleading for extra help, maybe it does actually need it. If I have time, I will come back in about another school. I want to thank our guests, whom I met a few weeks ago. It was a pleasure to talk to them. How does the NCSE involve parents, school communities, teachers and principals in shaping allocation policies and guidelines? When it comes to a school in Navan, I feel we have to do more. Colleagues will know what it is like when you work on an issue for a constituent or school and you feel we just have not done something right. That is why I am raising this matter today. I just feel we have not done it right.
The school in question is a vertical DEIS 1 school. The principal has spent so much time working on trying to get extra SNAs that it is affecting the rest of her work. She describes it as soul-destroying for the families, kids, teachers and the school. She has worked in schools for 34 years and knows what she is talking about. In September 2024, she had three SNAs and a clear knowledge that more were needed. She had full support from the CPSMA and the inspectorate. She applied through the NCSE portal for extra SNAs outlining each of the children's issues. It is the school's position that they should increase from three SNAs to six to enable them to provide care to those deserving pupils. The board of management of the school took the unprecedented measure of directly employing an SNA from February to June and now for September. Obviously, that financial outlay cannot keep going.
Also, in September, a student began in the school with documents in their bag. The school had no warning. The student was non-verbal and a flight risk. I have the list of all the different things that affect the children there, including autism, muscular dystrophy, one child being assessed for a wheelchair, severe autism, acquired brain injury, severe emotional and behavioural disturbance, ADHD, intellectual disabilities and global developmental delay. The list it goes on.
In November 2024, an SNA review was conducted on site by a SENO who spent from 9.30 a.m. to 5.30 p.m. at the school, such was the amount of paperwork. On 9 December 2024, contact was made with the SENO because there has been no result from the review. On 10 December, the result was in. The school was informed that there would be no change to it SNAs. On 12 December, the school contacted the NCSE with full details of the children and the requirement for extra SNAs. On 9 January 2025, rationale was received from SENO. On 13 January, the appeal was put back onto the portal of the exceptional review. From January to Easter, the ticket status read "being processed", and then it disappeared off the system completely. In the summer, I contacted the Department of Education and Youth to inform it that this appeal had been lost in the system. The school contacted the NCSE and the Department. I mentioned the matter to the NCSE when I met its representatives multiple times throughout the summer but the appeal was simply lost in the system. In July, the school submitted another appeal.
I do not know if I would have the stamina to keep this going like the principal did. There is no way someone would spend all that time doing this if they did not truly believe that their pupils need more SNAs. I have here with me two full folders of everything that has been sent to the NCSE to try to get SNAs for that school. The school has a budget of €250,000 for hot school meals. It takes an hour and a half each year to apply for those meals. The school has spent a year and a half trying to get one SNA at a cost of €40,000 in paperwork, emails and calls. It submitted its appeal again on 17 July. By 25 July, it had their answer, namely no extra SNAs. The school submitted an interim review on the advice of the SENO on 20 August, a week before the kids came back to the school, to include children who had not been represented in the initial review. On 8 September, almost two weeks into the school term, it received another refusal. While there were seven students who were identified initially as needing an SNA, when the latest refusal came in, one student had simply been dropped from the list and only six were mentioned. A child with type 1 diabetes was missed off the list. There is no plan for the redeployment of SNAs to meet the needs of the seven children.
I am very passionate about this. If we are advocating for parental choice, the same services should be available no matter what school they chose to go to. If the kids went to a special school, a mild to moderate one, they would have the help.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The officials might reply to the Senator in writing. The Senator very skilfully kept it within the parameters and represented the issue very well. Navan has multiple schools. The Senator did not mention an actual school, which is fine, but I urge members to be careful because there are only so many children in schools who get SNA help. If we name a school, if members are going down the route of mentioning examples, the details must be kept vague. There must be a degree of anonymity. The response should come in writing, if officials do not mind. People can come back in later. The four-minute time slot is for a member to put questions and get responses. When the clock runs out, we move on to the next member.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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I have received dozens of emails from parents, teachers, SNAs and principals in my constituency of Kildare South. They are all complaining about the new guidelines relating to the SNA review process. As matters stand, they are given a very limited window to apply for the review, which, understandably, is unsatisfactory for people. That is why I am getting all these emails. We know needs can arise throughout the year. Why has the decision been taken not to have a midyear review or receive applications year-round?
Mr. John Kearney:
I thank the Deputy. I will take this question. There is a context to it in the sense that the previous speaker alluded to in terms of engagement with school leaders and teachers on allocations coming out quickly. The effort of everybody concerned, our Department colleagues and ourselves, is that the issuing of allocations for teachers, special education teachers and special needs allocation would be happening in a coherent fashion in the month of February. That was the strong, loud and clear message coming from school leaders, namely to centralise the resource allocations and do them in a timely fashion.
That is why the window of opportunity to tie in with that has been outlined in the manner it has. I reassure the Deputy that if there are exceptional circumstances such as those she alluded to and if emerging needs arise, there are opportunities for schools, working with local SENOs on the ground, to respond.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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The same parents, SNAs, teachers and principals in Kildare have expressed concern about the allocation model based on a whole-school approach. Many SNAs and parents - mostly parents, probably - are worried that SNAs supporting mainstream children will be pulled into a specialised setting, instead of additional SNAs being sanctioned. That would be essentially robbing Peter to pay Paul, as has been stated. No child should be without the support he or she needs. Removing resources can have a significant and long-standing emotional impact. I hope the Department is giving this due consideration.
Mr. John Kearney:
I thank the Deputy for raising that matter because it gives me an opportunity to clarify to all concerned, particularly parents who might be anxious about SNA allocations, that the two special classes within primary schools and post-primary schools are ring-fenced. Those specific resources in special classes - the original two-SNA allocation - are not up for review, as such. That resource remains ring-fenced. There is uncertainty out there in the system. I appreciate the opportunity to clarify the position.
Mr. Frank Hanlon:
Some schools will have mainstream and special class allocation, as Mr. Kearney talked about. That remains as a base allocation. If the care need is in the school, whether it is a mainstream or a special class, the resources will be allocated to match that. It is not about robbing Peter to pay Paul, but about looking at a whole school and making sure, whether it a mainstream or a special class, it has the level of SNA resources it needs.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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I do not think that is the entire concern. The concern is that some schools are losing their allocations as SNAs are moved into special schools and special classes.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has about 15 seconds to wrap up.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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It is a really quick one on the increasing review applications. There were 1,000 extra in 2024, up to 1,400 from 450 in the previous year. Does anyone have any idea why we are seeing that level of increase?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That can be responded to in writing. I am sorry but the time constraints are very tight. I would love double the time myself. We may be able to come back to this again if it is the wish of members. In order for everyone to get to contribute, however, I have to keep it tight. Forgive me for that. Next up is Deputy O'Meara.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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I will start with the SNA occupational injury arrangements. Why are SNAs on an inferior scheme to teachers?
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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How long will it be before the process is completed?
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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Why is it taking so long to decide that it should apply to SNAs if it is already agreed that it applies to teachers?
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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Is the review looking at removing the requirement on the SNA to state that he or she has been assaulted by the young person?
Mr. James Walsh:
That is a different scheme. That is the assault leave scheme. There is an occupational injury scheme and an assault leave scheme. The latter scheme is in place at the moment. It covers where a person has received a physical injury as a result of physical contact from a third party. We have launched a consultation process with the teacher unions and Fórsa as to the terms of that scheme. They apply equally to teachers and SNAs. One of the issues is around the definition in the scheme. We are looking at it. There are assault leave schemes in other parts of the public sector, which are the genesis of the one we have.
There are differing priorities in terms of what people are looking for from the scheme. Some are looking to expand the definition of "assault" to take in other concerns. Others have a concern that where assault is mentioned in the context of a child, it is not correct. There are those who genuinely suffer what would be considered an assault or see themselves as victims of assault, and they would not be in favour of changing the definition. There are differing priorities and conflicting positions that make it less straightforward to address than one might initially think.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that. For many accidental injuries relating to SNAs, to expect them to say there was an assault, or where someone is not comfortable with calling it an assault, that is completely inappropriate. There are very specific circumstances here compared with other areas of the public sector given the type of work SNAs do, the caring role they provide and the type of relationship they have with the predominantly younger people they care for. For them to have to call it an assault is in many cases completely inappropriate, and the Department has to take that on board. Fórsa represented that very well in its written submission. I ask Mr. Walsh to look at it if he has not yet, particularly the paragraph on this issue, and to take it into account while he continues to work on this. I also hope it can be done quicker than the end of this academic year, particularly in view of the work done on the teaching side of it to date.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you very much, Deputy. Look at that for timing - impeccable. Deputy O'Rourke will do the very same.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I am not sure I will. The bar has been set high. We heard from Fórsa representatives in the previous session about how they were frustrated with how slowly contract negotiations were going. Why are they going slowly? What are the plans to address that? What are the issues that need to be dealt with? We have touched on a number of them.
Ms Angela Corcoran:
The commitment to review the SNA contract is contained in the current public service pay agreement. It was in the previous agreement as well but was deferred to align with the work we are doing on the SNA workforce development plan. Across the five pillars there is work under way through the working groups, etc., that will impact on the final work on the contracts. The contract review is being undertaken in collaboration with-----
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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What timeline might we expect? I appreciate that work is ongoing.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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What will come out of that? Ultimately, it is not-----
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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There is a major issue and difference in terms of the criteria that apply in the context of sanctioning SNAs for schools and the work they are doing in real terms - a lot of preventative work and supporting children in addition to assisting with primary care needs. There is an indication the Department is open to a wider definition of the role. Is that the case?
Specifically related to that is a point I have made before. We heard in the last session that parents and school leaders feel the NCSE is a gatekeeper and this is a system of rationing. I have to challenge the idea that schools will get the resources they need. We have heard otherwise in this session. Practically every school would say it needs more SNAs than it has.
The care needs that exist are not being met. I take it as a positive that there is an indication that the Department is willing to look at an expanded role. However, at the same time, the practical policy coming down from the guidelines and the NCSE and the on-the-ground work by the SENOs is to ration, constrain and restrict access to these essential supports. How are we going to square that?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise for interrupting but maybe with the time left to me this might be a helpful way to address it. I am making the case that there is an unmet need in schools at present. Ms Corcoran is saying that the Department is looking at an expanded definition of the role of an SNA. Has any analysis been conducted on what the actual workforce should look like in this State if we introduce an expanded definition for the work of an SNA?
Ms Angela Corcoran:
The work we have done in the plan is to consult with all the stakeholders - the SNAs, the management bodies and the unions - through the working groups to see what the role is at the moment, how it looks on the ground and how it should develop in the future. That is the work, but ultimately we will be presenting the outcome of that consideration for the Minister's decision in the coming weeks.
Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for attending. They are most welcome. We had an earlier session with Fórsa which gave us good insight regarding the SNAs feedback on how they are fitting in, so to speak, in schools and the kind of demands put on them in terms of additional work outside of their SNA role. Some of it was worrying, to say the least, but how and ever. I noted that witnesses stated in the presentation that there was a 40% increase in SNA supports since 2020, as a consequence of population increase and maybe the Department putting more resources in where they required. Credit is due to the witnesses if the latter is the case. One thing I really welcome is that from 2026 the release of the SNA allocations will be earlier so as to predict trends and the allocations for the annual staffing schedules will be better. Ms Corcoran referred to the existing SNA training course as assisting SNAs around the country to have greater understanding of their students and their strengths and needs. Will the witnesses expand on this and site-specific learning objectives or learning modules that have been evidently successful in that regard? What positive feedback has been received from the SNAs?
Ms Angela Corcoran:
That course, the national training programme for SNAs, has been in existence since 2021. It was designed as a bespoke course by UCD and the Department, directly correlating with the demands and the needs of SNAs in their role. The contract recently expired and ATU now has the new contract. We have revised the content. For example, initially the course was fully online but it now includes a practical component. That is in response to feedback. The feedback on the UCD course was overwhelmingly positive from SNAs and school leaders. Everybody we spoke to in the school community was very complimentary about how it met the practical needs on the ground. As I said, there is now a practical component and there is an increased emphasis on managing behaviours and also working with children with autism. It is very much designed to match the needs of the SNA on the ground. Mr. Kearney might want to add to that.
Mr. John Kearney:
The national programme that was run by UCD and is now run by ATU has had significant feedback that my colleague, Ms Corcoran, has alluded to. However, there is more that we can actually do and that is coming through in terms of the various focus groups and consultations through the SNA workforce and the development steering committee which suggests that ongoing training is required for SNAs. It is in an evolving state. We certainly can glean the lessons from the national programme, but there is more targeted, specific training that we need for SNAs as we move forward. It is a moving, evolving space and we have more to do.
Ms Angela Corcoran:
The learning and development pillar of the SNA workforce development plan will look at training and development for SNAs on a broader level, because not everybody may be in a position to commit to doing a year-long course. We will have more individualised modules, based on feedback. There are opportunities maybe through education centres, Middletown Centre for Autism and others to have input into a learning and development framework that will continue to meet the needs of SNAs and provide them with the practical insight and insight into best practice in supporting children.
Mr. John Kearney:
To add to that, the State has opened 16 new special schools. New special schools are formidable undertakings for the State to take on. There are very specific, targeted training CPD programmes for the SNAs working in those schools as well, as they work and navigate the various challenges associated with opening the new special schools.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for the fact that we are always very constrained for time at this committee. I apologise if I cut across people as they are speaking. Senator Scahill has four minutes.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for attending and for giving their presentations this morning. I was going to follow up on something that Fórsa mentioned this morning about the workforce development plan, but the witnesses have already gone through the pillars on that. I am not going to get into the issue of individual schools, but if we in the Oireachtas send messages and queries to ncse.ie, how quickly should we get a response?
Mr. Andrew Torrance:
We worked with the Department to make sure that once it is indicated that a direct response is required from the Department, that is communicated to the Oireachtas and to the NCSE as well. It has come to our attention as recently as this week that this does not always happen so we have asked to schedule a meeting with the members of staff who are actually dealing with that on the Department side so that we can make sure we are aligning it. This will ensure that when someone is told that they will get a direct reply from the Department or the NCSE, we will know about it as well. I think we are having that meeting on 2 October, because we do not want that to happen again.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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So is that two weeks or three weeks?
Mr. Andrew Torrance:
As soon as we receive them. Obviously, on some occasions we have to reach out to local personnel to actually find out the detail that is required, so it will be on a case-by-case basis. We would look to get them as soon as possible and certainly give them priority treatment within the dedicated team.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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If we do not get it in that timeline, who do we contact?
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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Regarding the SNA review process, I have been contacted by a number of principals in a number of schools, and certain things I can figure out and I understand the logic about it, but one of the concerns is the unification and redeployment risk. One school principal stated:
SNA allocations are now unified across mainstream and special classes, and this removes the protection autism class resources had while also setting up for internal conflict and resentment of autism classes within mainstream schools. The level of need in autism classes will often be higher, and if that leads to mainstream SNAs being removed and those children being less supported, it will lead to resentment of classes. The narrow definition of complex need and level 3 care needs exclude many children, and the hand-washing of behaviour care needs is completely at odds with the reality on the ground.
Another school principal said:
... unrealistic definition and exclusions. The narrow definitions of complex needs and the level 3 care needs leave many children out. The decision to dismiss behavioural care needs shows a worrying lack of understanding of the realities children, families, and schools face every day.
Will Mr. Kearney give a clearer definition of that?
Mr. John Kearney:
To add to what Mr. Torrance said about getting back to Oireachtas Members, we will come back formally to the Cathaoirleach and outline the schedule in which we intend to communicate. We want to do that swiftly and proactively. To reiterate, there are special classes attached to primary schools and to special schools. Unfortunately, there is significant confusion about this, so I really welcome the Senator's query to allow me to clarify that two SNAs are assigned to special classes. They remain protected as such. They are not going to be removed or taken from the special class and put into the mainstream school. That is creating a lot of frustration and angst for schools and for parents.
We welcome the queries to tidy that up. I will allow my colleague in on the more specific queries about complex needs and the level 3 understanding.
Ms Helen Walsh:
There is a level of confusion in the sector as to what complex needs means. We need to acknowledge that first. In our work with schools, and this speaks to many of the points made earlier about mainstream and special class allocation, we recognise there are some children whose care needs are such that the class teacher can manage and there can be successful intervention at class level. We could call that tier 1. At tier 2, one is looking at intermittent care needs. Those are where a child needs support which might be dispersed over the course of a day but it is not ongoing and intense in that context. The real complex care needs we are seeing is those students who need what is not almost full-time care but care at such a level of frequency and intensity right throughout that day that they must have SNA support on a very continuous basis.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The way we are going, we will have members who are not going to get in.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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Ms Walsh can respond in writing. That is all.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. On a general point, if the NCSE might appoint an Oireachtas liaison person it would be very helpful. There are many other organisations which do, so these direct questions can go in. The nodding heads are an indication the witnesses are agreeing. Very good. That is a big problem solved for us.
I apologise to Senator Scahill for cutting across him there. Time is hugely against us. I call Senator Tully who has four minutes. I ask members to be aware of time if they want to get answers.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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I thank everyone for their presentations. I have been receiving a lot of emails from school principals, parents and SNAs with concern about the review process. I have been asked if the Department will consider a review or suspension of it until proper consultation has taken place with the schools, SNAs and parents. The time limit of 15 September to 24 October is very short. Students will come into a school and there will be need throughout the year and that needs to be addressed.
Many schools I have talked to frequently look for more support. I acknowledge the increase in the number of SNAs and special classes and special schools but need is still not being met in schools. We still have a lot of schools which are looking for extra SNA access for students and it is being denied and they are really concerned. I have had two schools already this year with students with needs coming into junior infants and no extra SNA access was granted to them. They had to appeal that decision and they are trying to deal with the students in the meantime. It is just not fair on the students.
There is also concern about some of the issues about complex level 3 care needs. Many feel it will be based just on physical care needs and medical care needs but emotional need and children who need to regulate and have movement breaks are just as important. They cannot cope with a day without that support in school and it will end up, as we have had for years, with students basically dropping out of school or masking their behaviour and being very difficult at home. We need more support.
The need is not being met. Are allocations being restrained due to budget? We are just not basing allocation on the needs in our schools. There obviously is a budget restraint there and that is not fair on the students who are missing out on a vital education.
Mr. John Kearney:
On the degree of consultation, I want to reassure the Senator that we are very much continually listening to feedback from parents and school leaders. In relation to the SNA redeployment in schools, we have conducted 1,100 workshop sessions with school leaders. The strong endorsing feedback from that was to get allocations out early to schools and streamline them with teacher allocation that normally goes out in February to make sure SNA allocations and special teacher allocations are going out in that phase as well. There is evolving complexity of need which arises in school. Just two years ago we conducted 700 reviews. We conducted 1,400 reviews within schools and during the summer months we conducted another 200. That is a cumulative total of about 2,300 reviews which we have conducted in schools. We are continually trying to keep up with the emerging need. That is a fluid dynamic within schools where we are trying to keep a handle on that and respond swiftly to schools’ emerging needs.
I will ask Mr. Hanlon to take an element of the overall allocation.
Mr. Frank Hanlon:
I think I have ten seconds. First, on the overall allocation, we get an extra allocation. Through the Estimates process we look for additional SNAs every year. We got 1,600 this year and the NCSE will allocate every single one of those and the rest. There is a budgetary position, however. The NCSE is tasked with going out and reviewing individual schools and looking at the care need within those schools.
On the review window of six weeks, as we discussed earlier, the NCSE has clarified this with schools which may have been a bit concerned about it, that there will be opportunity after that six weeks. The point of that six-week window was to get it done earlier in the year to allow for the earlier release of the allocations, etc. There will be opportunities for schools if need arises.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Hanlon. Senator Conway is next and has four minutes, please.
Joe Conway (Independent)
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I have three questions. Earlier, Mr. Hanlon mentioned assaults by a third party. I am not 100% sure what he means by that. Can he elucidate that a little?
Joe Conway (Independent)
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It is the third party I am interested in.
Joe Conway (Independent)
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I see, okay. Following on from that, is there any quantum of statistics that would indicate the frequency or relevance of that happening in schools?
Mr. James Walsh:
The Department has data around the number of people who have applied for and who have gone out on assault leave and that data is available. However, that does not necessarily cover all instances where a person is injured from physical contact from a third party because if there is no injury arising or if the person does not feel they need to take time off, they will not apply for the leave. The information is there in terms of how many people are on that leave type but it may not necessarily indicate the number of incidents that take place in a school for that reason.
Joe Conway (Independent)
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One could reasonably conclude that the number of instances would be much greater than the figure.
Joe Conway (Independent)
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Right. If such a thing happens in a school, is the custom and practice that it is resolved in house or are there instances where the matter is given over to the Garda and the DPP?
Mr. James Walsh:
Again, it would depend on the nature of the incident. When one looks at the assault leave scheme, one could have an altercation between two staff members, between a parent and a teacher or an SNA or there could be an incident where a child with special needs may throw their hand back and make contact with a person and break their nose, for example, or something like that. The scheme does not need there to be any criminal or malicious intent but just that there is physical contact there. One may have instances where the involvement of the Garda is very much required and other instances where it is not, but that would be very much determined by the specific consequences, the individuals concerned and whether or not there was felt to be a requirement to refer the matter to the Garda. It is very much situation specific.
Joe Conway (Independent)
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Finally, this might lighten the workload for myself and my staff, could Mr. Walsh send me a link to those statistics? Is there somebody who could do that?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That is impeccable time-keeping. The next slot is Deputy Coppinger who has four minutes.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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The opening statement says that our education system does not have a difficulty with recruitment or retention when it comes to SNAs. I believe the Department would say the same about teachers as well or certainly the Government does when it gets up to speak. How does the Department reconcile that view with what has been said by parents and here earlier by union representatives in relation to the unmet needs in schools, the instability of the SNA job and so on? Would Ms Corcoran accept that the morale of SNAs and the morale of SNAs over the years, as reported to us earlier in the other session, is fundamentally down to the Department of education as their employer? This is exactly what they said: they said they felt unrecognised, undervalued and disrespected both within their schools and also within the Department of Education and Youth. It was reported that each year the NCSE publishes the SNA allocations for schools and SNAs wait anxiously to find out if they will have a job in the forthcoming year. This is extremely unfair to any professional person. They said that they felt excluded from school life and did not believe that were seen as equal members of the school community. They said they are perceived to be unqualified and untrained and are not treated with respect. They also said that they have inferior conditions to teachers. Is that not down to the Department of education?
Ms Angela Corcoran:
In terms of recruitment, we do not have a supply issue with SNAs. We meet and consult regularly with stakeholders. School leaders and management bodies are telling us that they are not having difficulty recruiting SNAs. We can see by looking at statistics in terms of the SNAs courses available that there is a steady flow - about 4,000 a year - coming from level 5 courses. That supply is there and there is no reported difficulty there. It is obviously something we need to keep closely monitored.
In terms of morale, we recognise that the SNA workforce feels that it needs supports. That is why the SNA workforce development unit that I lead on was established. It is also why we are working on an SNA workforce development plan because we recognise those supports are needed.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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What kind of supports is the Department looking to give to SNAs?
Ms Angela Corcoran:
We are looking at their role and expect to have a new circular on the role of the SNA. We will have learning and development supports. We are looking at diversity and building that. Across the five pillars there will be supports. We are looking at continued investment in the SNA training programme.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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This is good, right, and we have heard about the review and the overall look at that again. However, in 2020 their union had to launch a campaign, Respect for SNAs. We are into 2025 now. Why has it taken this long? Can I finish with one specific question? The new SNA review guidelines are causing a lot of concern due to the narrow eligibility and the restricting of schools' flexibility. It is going to amalgamate special and mainstream allocations meaning that the whole school will be assessed with the presumption that SNAs could be taken from mainstream to special classes, therefore potentially pitching one group against another. What is the Department's or the NCSE's view on that?
Ms Helen Walsh:
There is considerable confusion in the sector in relation to this. The two posts that are generally allocated to a special class will remain within that special class. The review - and I am not talking about deployment because a lot of the conversations today have been between the allocation model and how SNAs are deployed - but in terms of the review mechanism, the review will come to look at all of the students. Those two posts will stay where they are within the special class but the entire school will be reviewed in relation to its additional needs. A school may have children outside the special class who have significant needs and who require support. The deployment of those supports is then therefore up to the school's principal. There is no change to that but the review keeps those special class posts separate from the overall allocation of care needs. That includes children, I am sorry-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am very sorry, Ms Walsh. It is a very important answer. If there is a way afterwards for both the Department and NCSE to tidy up some of this in terms of a collective response, it would be really appreciated. I apologise, but such is the job, I have to keep the meeting moving.
My speaking slot is next and I apologise to members because they have heard me make this point like a parrot several times over. I want to look at the whole area of SENOs and professional competency. There are many fine SENOs supporting schools in very good ways but it is not always the case. Some schools, parents and children would see SENOs as putting certain barriers in front of them when they are trying to access what they need. That is a feeling, whether it is right or wrong we will discuss in a moment.
To my knowledge - and the correspondence only came in this morning, we would have loved it 11 weeks ago - to become a SENO, one must have a QQI level 8 in the health sciences, education field or social sciences. They are professionally tasked with looking at educational psychologists' reports, which are clinical reports with clinical recommendations that are very clear. I have many friends who have studied health sciences and I am teacher by profession. I never got any training in Mary Immaculate College - I still use my Mary I biro - in educational psychology on how to analyse and dismiss reports. However, SENOs are somehow empowered to do this. I would love to know what training does the Department give people when they go through the interview and are taken on as part of their staff? What training are they given to become educational psychologists or at least to interpret reports from educational psychologists?
I have repeatedly made the point that I am a teacher, I am not a dentist or a surgeon. I would not go down the street to a hospital and stand at the door and tell the surgeons they got something wrong because I know better. That is what happens with reports from educational psychologists. There could be recommendations there for SNA reports or assistive technology yet we have youngsters who cannot get laptops or are told that they do not need SNAs after being observed by a SENO for a 10 or 15 minute period. This observation supersedes a report from an educational psychologist. How is that allowed to happen? I have seen many parents left brow beaten after walking out of meetings. They do not know how to fight back against these barriers. On one occasion, I saw a father, who was a barrister, make the point that there is a legal principal here. Someone should only be able to rubbish, counteract or dismiss someone's report if they are equally or more qualified. After having SENOs around for almost 20 years, how is it that they can go in interpret a report and dismiss it?
Mr. John Kearney:
I thank the Cathaoirleach for his query. To give some background, we have certainly broadened the scope of our recruitment campaign and acknowledge the support of central Government which has enabled us to expand our workforce considerably. This time three years ago, we had roughly just over 60 SENOs but we are now privileged to have over 120 joining us. That has been reflected in-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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With respect, how can they make those decisions or override educational psychologists? That is what we need-----
Ms Helen Walsh:
I am also from a teaching and psychology background and was also a SENO. Notwithstanding all of that, SENOs do not make or undermine recommendations. What they do is marry circulars with the recommendations that are there. Remember, eligibility is defined according to four categories within a special class or special school. These include the evidence of complex needs. Some reports do not contain that. Some reports will give the diagnosis of the student, that is fine and we take that. Sometimes the rationale as to why a child needs a specialist placement under EPSEN is not there either. SENOs are not taking recommendations and saying a child does not need a place. They are analysing the evidence that should be categorical within a report, aligning it with circulars and then making the case.
We have 120 excellent SENOs. They receive ongoing induction, training and work with their team managers. If there is ever the faintest hint that the evidence is not clear, they go back in and have a look. They do that within their team structure.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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They analyse reports, those are Ms Walsh's words. To what extent are they qualified to do that? I spent years becoming a teacher. I know one thing, I am not qualified to analyse a report from an educational psychologist, or to pick out pieces that I agree or do not agree with.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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There is a fundamental point here. Are civil servants or educational psychologists drafting the circulars?
Ms Helen Walsh:
There is a difference between the recommendation itself and eligibility to a special class because we have to take EPSEN into account which assumes a placement within a mainstream context unless it is clearly evidenced. It is the evidence piece that the SENOs are looking for.
They are not undermining a recommendation. SENOs do not walk away from the space; they work with the parent and very often advise the parent as to the eligibility category that is not contained. We often see-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I had better stick to my own rules and end the contribution there. I appreciate Ms Walsh’s response.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in today.
There is a huge amount of confusion, as already outlined. Could the witnesses write to us stating exactly where in the document it is stated that mainstream will not take away from special classes. A number of education experts I have encountered, including SNAs, parents, principals and teachers, cannot find it in the document. The difficulty is that there is no training on the Relate document that is supposed to be used. That is another complaint that has been made. Since there is no training, confusion has arisen. I am completely confused because, from what I have listened to today, there is a new circular on the role of the SNAs coming up, the report based on the pillars, a review on which there is confusion, and the new guidelines. Then there are the matters of training on Relate, the contract issues and issues regarding assault leave and occupational injury leave. All of these things are happening, yet the guidelines are coming in before all of them are sorted out. As has been said, over 2,000 reviews have been done in the last year or two. Could there be a pause so that when all of these things are put in place, there will be a fresh start? What I think is happening is that the officials are trying to catch up with themselves all the time and going nowhere, causing confusion. I am not personalising this at all but mean that the NCSE and Department are causing confusion and upset. SNAs are upset by how they are being treated. That centres around the lack of understanding and clarity about what their role is.
I asked yesterday in the Dáil Chamber whether there would be a pause and was told categorically that there would not be one, but I ask for one again. The review needs to be paused until everything is put in place. The allocations are going out but I hear from colleagues that there is not enough SNA support. There is considerable fear now among parents that their children will not be supported because the allocations will be to the children with the most complex needs. They absolutely do not want to take away from that. However, today has really highlighted for me that while the officials are doing a huge amount of work, on which I commend them, and while I do not envy the task they have ahead of them, it sometimes looks like what I describe is happening. This is not how an education system should be working.
I will spare the time. I have heard the answer already but I would really like to know in writing where in the document the confusion arises. I ask for a response on my suggestion to pause things and start afresh from 2026.
Mr. Frank Hanlon:
If there is confusion, we need to clear it up. On the guidelines the NCSE put out on reviewing schools’ SNA allocations, reviews are done every year. As Mr. Kearney outlined, the six-week window was to allow for the earlier release of allocations and everything else. The earlier the NCSE can review schools’ SNA needs and the earlier the schools can get the additional SNAs they need, the better.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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Earlier somebody mentioned a reduction in care needs. I cannot understand how there will be a reduction. As somebody else here said, if you start in junior infants and have a number of needs, they will just stay the same, or increase. The officials are jumping the gun. Changing this review system ahead of all the other things is not helpful to the schools and it is causing huge stress where it does not need to cause it. Genuine clarity around that would be really appreciated by all of the people I have mentioned.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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That is changing, and that is going to affect things.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am going to pick up where Deputy Cummins left off. We have a serious communication problem. Three principals contacted me in the past week about the new allocation of SNAs fundamentally changing. That belief exists. I realise Mr. Hanlon has said the information will be sent to us but the communication needs to go to the schools primarily. What is occurring is seen as another way of limiting access to SNAs.
I heard what has been said today about perception not being reality, but I have three examples indicating there is going to be a deadline on reviews, that being 24 October. The officials have said today that if there are changes to a school’s circumstances, there will be the opportunity to review them, but the perception is that reviews can take place only within the limited timeframe, from 12 September to 24 October. The delegates will see that when they tell us the number of reviews went up from 450 to 1,440 between 2023 to 2024, it would seem like a cynical move on the on the part of the NCSE to then limit access to those reviews. This needs to be clarified.
My second point is on the streamlining of SNA allocation. The officials have said clearly today that the baseline allocation, according to the existing circular, is not changing and that there is still one full-time teacher and two SNAs, but again, the perception among teachers and principals is that this is changing. That is very serious.
Then third point is that the roles and responsibilities of the SNAs are being narrowed. The conversation we had here earlier implied the traditional role of the SNA was limited to the physical care needs of students, but that does not reflect what SNAs actually do. To revert to the very narrow description of SNAs goes against the first discussion we had, which was on the need to value the true contribution of SNAs in schools. Therefore, we and schools need clarity on these issues and others as soon as possible.
I waited nearly three months for a response to a parliamentary question. I asked the question on 29 May and got a response in late August. Senator Nelson Murray’s experience of reviews for the particular school is my experience of many schools in Dublin West. We have invested in special education and SNAs. Let us not tell a story or limit that investment. It represents a good return and it is very much needed for school communities across the board.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has given the officials loads of time.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Maybe they could respond in about 45 seconds or so.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Maybe with a summary on what I have heard.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It might be helpful if both sides, in maybe a minute or minute and half, summarise little bits we might have missed throughout the session, if they are able. Sorry about being so quickfire today.
Mr. Frank Hanlon:
I will cover briefly our perspective of on the guidelines. Mr. Kearney will come in on this, but schools have already been written to in this regard to clarify the points the Deputy is talking about. If people are saying they understand the guidelines to mean a certain thing when they do not, they absolutely have to be clarified.
In the opportunity I have, let me make a few key points. First, the whole reason for the window was not to restrict anything; it was actually to help schools in planning for the year ahead. It is what schools wanted to allow for allocations to go out earlier and a redeployment scheme to be in place. The second point is that there remain separate allocations for mainstream and special classes in mainstream schools. That has not changed and is not changing.
The third point is the role of the SNA, as has always been the case in terms of the NCSE when it goes in to review, is based on that circular from 2014, which is where the criteria come from. Obviously that is something that is being looked at on either side-----
Ms Angela Corcoran:
If I could add something, in addition to all the work we are doing across those five pillars and the plan, we have been listening very carefully to all stakeholders, including the SNAs, over the past two years we have been working on the plan. I urge members, if they can, to take time to look at the research we have done in preparation for the plan. We have held focus groups with the SNAs, school leaders and teachers. There are reports on each of those on the Government website. We have conducted the national survey of SNAs your colleague, Senator Curley, mentioned at the outset, so we are very much listening to what is happening on the ground and where the need arises. We are looking forward to developing actions to present to the Minister for his consideration that will address all those as best we can. The commitment is there. We are committed to delivering for children with special educational needs and, by extension, for the SNAs themselves.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, I meant that if the council was bringing in limits on access to reviews-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, we are gone way over time.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----that would be seen as a cynical move.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That was just a clarification.
Mr. John Kearney:
I very much acknowledge and accept the need for clarifications as well. We are continually engaging with schools but there will always be additional clarity provided. The committee meeting this afternoon has been extremely useful in highlighting - and members have reflected this very well from their constituencies - schools' and parents' engagement in terms of further clarifications being required. We will duly provide those. I will pass over to my colleague just to pick up-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise but we will not have time. I am very sorry, Ms Walsh. There is an agriculture committee meeting taking place here very shortly. I looked to see if we could have additional time, but unfortunately we cannot. A few members have sent emails and text messages as the meeting has been happening, so there is a desire for us to come back to this again. I think there would be general interest in having that. I apologise, because it is frustrating. We have all been at the receiving end where you are speaking against the clock, and I am sorry because it is a very important matter.
I sincerely thank the Fórsa representatives who were here. I thank the representatives of Embrace Autism who were in session 1 as well. I especially thank our SNAs, who gave very honest and frank testimony. A lot of us know what they do day to day, but it is very good we hear it officially in the Houses of the Oireachtas, including the good of the profession and some of the limitations they face day in and day out. That was very important to the body of work we have done here today. I sincerely thank the officials representing the NCSE, namely, Mr. Torrance, Ms Walsh and Mr. Kearney. I am sorry for cutting through them while they were contributing. Representing the Department we had Ms Corcoran, Mr. Hanlon and Mr. Walsh. I very much appreciate it. No member got all their questions answered because the clock was against them. We really need both entities here to have a liaison officer we can go to so that some of these questions can be taken out of the Chamber, basically. The officials have given an indication they will have one in the NCSE and they might advise us on that in due course. Separately to all this, our committee agreed last week we would be requesting a liaison person in the Department of education. It is not directly to the officials who are here but they might just talk to people.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That would be really appreciated. Before we conclude, many SNAs tuned in from home. I can see emails have been coming in from all members' constituencies. They have been coming in to all of us. There was a lot of content we did not get near today. There are parents watching. There are advocacy groups for autism and Down Syndrome Ireland who have been emailing in. We are very sorry we did not get to all this. There is a body of work to be done beyond today that we as a committee need to look at scheduling more time for in the future.
Our next meeting will be on Thursday, 2 October. We will begin that day in private session and then go into public session. As always, a massive thank you to the secretariat and the technical team, who have been here throughout the meeting, allowing it to happen. We very much appreciate it.