Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I remind all those in attendance to ensure their phones are on silent or switched off. Apologies have been received from the Cathaoirleach and Deputies Kenny and Neville.

Before we proceed, I have a few housekeeping matters. I remind members of the constitutional requirements that to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 226 that the committee shall refrain from enquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are further reminded of the long-standing practice and ruling of the Cathaoirleach to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way to make him or her identifiable.

We will now examine the accounts and statements, correspondence and consider the work programme report 2025. We will then suspend and resume at 10:30 a.m. for engagement with representatives of the Health Information and Quality Authority.

Seventeen sets of accounts and financial statements, which were laid between 7 and 14 July 2025, are due to be considered today. The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee and is in attendance again today. I ask him to address those accounts before I open the floor to members.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The first set of financial statements are those of the National Cancer Registry Ireland board for 2024. They received a qualified audit opinion. In my opinion, the accounts give a true and fair view, except that they account for the cost of retirement benefit entitlements only as they become payable. That is standard for many of the health bodies.

No. 2 is the financial statements of The Gathering project 2013. This is a non-trading company. The financial statements relate to 2024 and they received a clear audit opinion.

No. 3 is the financial statements of the Personal Injuries Resolution Board for 2024, which received a clear audit opinion.

No. 4 is the Private Security Authority financial statements for 2024. They received a clear audit opinion.

No. 5 is the National Council for Special Education financial statements for 2024. They received a clear audit opinion.

No. 6 is the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board financial statements for 2024. They received a clear audit opinion.

No. 7 is the Economic and Social Research Institute financial statements for 2024. They received a clear audit opinion.

The remaining financial statements are all accounts produced by the National Treasury Management Agency. No. 8, the national debt of Ireland accounts for 2024, received a clear audit opinion.

No. 9 is the National Treasury Management Agency administration account for 2024. They received a clear audit opinion.

No. 10 is the post office savings bank fund accounts for 2024. They received a clear audit opinion.

No. 11 is the State Claims Agency accounts for 2024. They received a clear audit opinion.

No. 12 is the Dormant Accounts Fund accounts for 2024. They received a clear audit opinion.

No. 13 is the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund financial statements for 2024. They received a clear audit opinion.

No. 14 is the Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund accounts for 2024. They received a clear audit opinion.

No. 15 is the Future Ireland Fund accounts for 2024. They received a clear audit opinion.

No. 16 is the National Surplus (Exceptional Contingencies) Reserve Fund financial statements for 2024. They received a clear audit opinion. I draw the committee's attention to the fact that these are the dissolution accounts of the fund. The balances that were in the fund were distributed to the Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund and the Future Ireland Fund.

The final set of financial statements relate to the Ireland Apple escrow fund. They are also cessation accounts and cover the period 1 January 2024 to the winding-up of the escrow fund on 13 May 2025. They received a clear audit opinion.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I do not know whether the Comptroller and Auditor General will have the answer to this at his fingertips. Over the lifetime of the Ireland Apple escrow fund, did it lose or gain money up to its dissolution? It is approximately €470 million.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The €475 million includes gains in the value of the fund and interest earned in the period of account. It is the final value of the fund. Over its lifetime it lost value in the market, but it regained value. There were also two fairly substantial multimillion euro withdrawals from the fund for tax liabilities due in other jurisdictions. I have reported on that and have in preparation an overview chapter, which will be published in September. It will sum up the overall experience with the fund. However, from memory, the amount that was disbursed to Revenue and the central fund of the Exchequer totalled approximately €14 billion. Given the withdrawals to pay taxes in other jurisdictions, I would suggest there was a net gain.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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My first question has been put and answered so I will not ask it again.

The qualified opinion to the first set of accounts mentioned keeps coming up. The Comptroller and Auditor General has explained it relates to a directive or regulation.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That is correct.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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However, it does not look great each time there is a qualified opinion. Is there any way this can be aligned in the future?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Not really. In order to be able to make a statement that accounts or financial statements present a true and fair view, they have to be done in a particular way. "True and fair" is almost a kind of copyright. We have to be able to tick many boxes to be able to say it is a true and fair view. As there is this a different treatment of pension liabilities in these financial statements, at the direction of the Minister - and the Minister is entitled in law to make such a direction, so I do not have a difficulty with that - I am forced by the auditing standards to issue a qualified opinion. I have to issue a qualified opinion, but I want to make clear to the committee that it is only on that point that the opinion deviates from the true and fair standard.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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On the accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency, we received reports earlier this week - I will use the quote used in the media - that it was discovered in recent days that a €5 million fraud had been perpetrated against the National Treasury Management Agency. The joint committee may also have questions about this. Can I clarify whether issues relating to control are a matter for this committee and for the accounts laid before the committee? On that basis, I suggest to the committee that we refer this item to our next discussion on the work programme to seek a date to bring the agency before the committee. Will Mr. McCarthy clarify that point?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Most of the accounts between Nos. 8 and 17 are published together and there is a single statement of internal control, which covers all the entities. The one that was affected is the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund. The transaction will be reflected in the 2025 statements. The agency makes a declaration on the system of control and it its presented with these financial statements. Therefore, it is certainly within the area of interest of this committee.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. McCarthy believe those issues of control are primarily the remit of the Committee of Public Accounts?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, I imagine they would be.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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That might be something for us to consider with our colleagues in the joint committee.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Could we invite representatives of the national debt of Ireland unit before the committee at some stage so that I can get an understanding of what happens there? There is a huge amount.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The national debt of Ireland is the principal financial statement of the National Treasury Management Agency.

Due to the way the legislation is structured, I have to produce a report in relation to that, as well as the audit opinion. In September, I will be publishing a chapter and I will be drawing attention to highlights in that regard. Obviously, the key one is the size of the national debt, which at the year's end stood at €233 billion.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Would that come under the National Treasury Management Agency?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Could we call the NTMA in at some stage and have that on our work programme?

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We will refer that item for discussion on the work programme with the secretariat. We can discuss that at our next meeting.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The national debt of Ireland accounts are also incorporated as part of the finance accounts, so the Secretary General of the Department of Finance is also accountable in relation to the national debt.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I just thought it was interesting, as it is a huge amount of money.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Those are questions for the Comptroller and Auditor General. The listing of accounts and financial accounts will be published as part of our minutes. Is it agreed to note the listing of accounts and financial statements? Agreed.

We shall now consider the correspondence received from the Accounting Officers and dealing with follow-up from previous meetings of the committee.

No. R0189 is correspondence from Louth and Meath ETB. It is agreed to note and publish the correspondence.

No. R0190 is correspondence from the Charities Regulator. It is agreed to note and publish the correspondence.

No. R0194 is correspondence from the Department of Transport. It is agreed to note and publish the correspondence.

No. R0199 is correspondence from the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration. It is agreed to note and publish the correspondence.

No. R0202 is correspondence from the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. It is agreed to note and publish the correspondence.

No. R0203 is correspondence from the Arts Council. It is agreed to defer the correspondence to our next meeting.

No. R0205 is correspondence from the National Transport Authority. It is agreed to note and publish the correspondence.

Do members have any comments to add on those items of correspondence?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I welcome that the committee has made a decision that the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission will be coming before us in September in relation to its accounts and other issues.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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There is agreement of the committee on that. Do any other members wish to contribute? No.

Regarding our work programme, the Dáil will be in summer recess from today. The committee has agreed to return on 18 September to discuss financial accounts and statements laid during the recess and any correspondence. It has also been agreed to invite the following witnesses to the committee between September and early November: Uisce Éireann; Tusla; the NTPF and Beaumont Hospital; the HSE; the Department of justice; and the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission.

The committee has also agreed its work programme for 2025 and this will be published on the committee webpage in the next week.

Are there any other items of correspondence that members wish to discuss? No.