Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies have been received from Deputies Seamus Healy and Liam Quaide, and Senators Nikki Bradley, Maria Byrne and Laura Harmon.

The purpose of today's meeting is to continue the discussion about progressing the delivery of disability policies and services. On behalf of the committee, from An Coimisiún Toghcháin, I extend a warm welcome to Mr. Art O'Leary, chief executive, Mr. Brian Dawson, communications and public affairs manager, and Ms Eunice Delaney, electoral integrity and research unit.

Joining us online are Professor Eilionóir Flynn, Centre for Disability Law and Policy, and Dr. Aoife Price, postdoctoral researcher.

Before we begin, I will read out a note on parliamentary privilege and housekeeping matters. All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction I may make. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit. In that regard, I ask any member partaking via Teams to confirm prior to making a contribution to the meeting that he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House complex.

I now call on Mr. Art O'Leary to make his opening statement.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

Míle buíochas, a Chathaoirligh, as ucht an chuiridh a bheith ag an gcoiste don chruinniú tábhachtach seo. It is a great pleasure to be before the committee again. This committee was the very first Oireachtas committee an coimisiún appeared before following our establishment, and we are keen to maintain a strong connection to its work programme throughout this Legislature. When I last met the committee in October 2023, we had just completed a constituency review but were yet to have two referendums, local elections, European Parliament elections, the Limerick mayoral election, the general election and, most recently, the Seanad election. Through each one of those campaigns, and the casting of more than 9 million individual ballots, we have focused firmly on accessibility and the need for disabled people to be able to fully vindicate their rights to equal participation in political and public life as set out under Article 29 of the UNCRPD. Today I wish to re-emphasise a simple but powerful truth: democracy is only truly representative when it includes everyone. That means ensuring people with disabilities are not just counted but heard. Many people with disabilities face barriers to participation and voting, whether physical, informational, attitudinal or systemic. These obstacles do not just deny individuals their rights; they weaken our democracy. Voting is not just a civic duty; it is a way to shape the systems that directly affect people's lives: transport, housing, healthcare and education. Disabled people must have a say in those decisions - not just as an afterthought but as active participants. When accessibility is built into every stage of the electoral process, from enrolment to casting a ballot, we uphold not only the right to vote but the dignity and agency of every citizen. True inclusion means accessible polling places, plain-language materials, assistive technology and respectful attitudes. It means ensuring that all people's needs are supported, not excluded.

An coimisiún has now published four sets of post-electoral event reviews for the national votes in March, June and November of 2024 and, most recently, the Seanad elections of this year, and a golden thread running through each of them has been the consistent focus on accessibility. During our observation, an coimisiún has witnessed improvements in election administration and infrastructure and a genuine effort to improve the accessibility of certain polling stations, and for that we acknowledge the work of returning officers and polling staff. As we head towards the presidential election this autumn, however, significant challenges remain.

Our review of November's general election was published in May with eight new recommendations, several of which focused on accessibility. The general election PEER saw an coimisiún extending the scope of analysis from the accessibility of polling stations primarily observed through visits on polling day to a broader "seeing is understanding" approach, centred on disabled people's lived experiences. For the first time, we accompanied electors with varying disabilities being supported by the Irish Wheelchair Association as they went to vote in polling stations across the Belmullet Peninsula in Mayo. These visits formed the basis of a case study featured in the PEER report itself. We have focused significant attention on the situation facing people applying for a postal vote because of illness or disability. This cohort of people must pay charges to get the certification needed to access their postal vote. Looking at this from a rights-based perspective, particularly in the context of the CRPD, we have recommended to the Government the need to waive these charges as a matter of priority. If the health of our democracy is partly measured in turnout, we must make voting as easy, as accessible and as welcoming as possible within the laws which protect the integrity of our ballots.

Work is now under way on an coimisiún's education and public engagement strategy. Last week, we held the first working group of members representing groups who experience barriers. This group comprised those with a lived experience and representatives from groups and organisations whose clients and customers face barriers in many aspects of their lives, not least in their ability to exercise their democratic right. I hope to publish our strategy and action plan before the end of this year.

Finally, I wish to say a quick word on a few elements of our work which are about enabling access to information about voting and democratic participation. Actor Conor O'Donnell, who works with Down Syndrome Ireland, starred in our "How to Vote" TV ads. We distributed easy-to-read guides to voting and voter registration. My colleague Mr. Dawson has copies of our easy-to-read guide for the presidential election campaign with us. We will circulate them to the members. We ensured that our advertising and social media posts use accessibility features as standard. We developed our publications from universal design principles and ensured that our website is easily navigable and holds digital inclusion at its core. Our research programme sees us integrating the views and perspectives of disabled people into all aspects of our research. Whether it is ballot paper design and the accessibility of ballot papers for voters with disabilities, the potential impacts of widening our forms of voting such as greater use of postal voting, or understanding the benefits which the use of election posters offers those with an intellectual or learning disability, our research must be thorough and inclusive to ensure that our final recommendations solve problems for voters and do not create new ones.

In October 2023, I told the members of this committee of An Coimisiún Toghcháin's determination to be a part of a rights-based approach to identifying and clearing barriers to democratic access and participation. That determination remains intrinsic to our work and our functions and, in the 29 months since we began our work, I hope that through our actions and our policy interventions An Coimisiún Toghcháin is recognised by disabled people and their representatives to be focused on securing equality of access to our democracy. In short, voting must be easy, equal and empowering for everyone, because when people with disabilities vote and are represented, our democracy becomes stronger, fairer and more reflective of the society we all share.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you, Mr. O'Leary. Now I call on Dr. Aoife Price to make her opening statement. Dr. Price joins us online.

Dr. Aoife Price:

We welcome the opportunity to address the committee on political representation. The research we are discussing today was funded by the National Disability Authority under its research promotion scheme. I am joined online by Professor Eilionóir Flynn, a member of the research team. Unfortunately, Dr. Vivian Rath is unable to join us as he is in hospital at the moment.

Disabled people, who make up 22% of the population, are identified as having extremely low participation in political and public life in Ireland. The potential consequences of this marginalisation are that they do not have the opportunity to contribute to decision-making processes on issues that concern them. Those who identify as holding multiple intersecting identities often find themselves facing greater levels of marginalisation. Article 29 of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities outlines the importance of disabled people's right "to stand for elections, to effectively hold office and perform all ... functions at all levels of government, facilitating the use of assistive and new technologies where appropriate". The research we are discussing today focused on the experiences of disabled candidates who identified as holding intersecting identities and stood in the Irish local and European elections in 2024. Intersecting identities for this research were taken primarily from the nine grounds of the Equal Status Acts, including gender, marital status, family status, age, disability, sexual orientation, religion, race and membership of the Travelling community.

While the Acts do not explicitly include socioeconomic status as a protected characteristic, the research team included this as a further intersecting identity within the scope of the research.

This is the first research in Ireland on the impact of intersecting identities on the political participation of those with disabilities. Seven disabled election candidates with intersectional identities participated in the research. Five were disabled women and two were disabled LGBT men. We also interviewed eight organisations representing marginalised communities in Ireland, including those representing disabled people, disabled women, Travellers, migrants and LGBTQI+ people. All the candidates who participated in our research were contesting the local elections and two of the seven were elected, one being an incumbent. Several systemic barriers emerged within this research. These included barriers related to inaccessibility of the built environment, which candidates experienced when postering, canvassing and finding accessible venues in which to host campaign events. Access to information and communication was also challenging, especially for disabled people getting their message out through print, broadcast and social media. Candidates experienced negative attitudes from some members of the public and even from political colleagues and opponents. Candidates’ fears of violence were evident, especially during canvassing, and were heightened in some situations by the challenges of exiting risky situations in an accessible manner. A widespread concern was insufficient financial resourcing for the candidates to contest the elections. Candidates described the challenge of balancing personal commitments, including caring obligations, with political work, and the lack of support they received from political parties and from organisations representing other marginalised communities. As a result of these findings, the research team developed recommendations for the State, civil society and political parties to ensure more accessible pathways into political life for disabled people from under-represented communities. Our recommendations focus on three different categories of actors relating to their roles, including the State, political parties and civil society. They are as follows.

First, the State should be responsible for collecting self-reported data on disability and other identities from election candidates. This should be published in a disaggregated form that does not identify or endanger candidates. In principle, this work could be carried out by the Department responsible for elections, local authorities that administer the electoral process or the Electoral Commission. However, meaningful consultation is required with disabled people’s organisations and organisations representing other marginalised communities, as well as the relevant State bodies responsible for elections, to determine the body best placed to collect this data and how that would be processed. Second, specific supports, including additional funding, should be made available to disabled people with intersectional identities, given the extra costs associated with standing for election. Other equality measures such as quotas should also be explored to increase the levels of representation of disabled election candidates with intersectional identities. Third, communal postering via billboards and joint debates that host all election candidates should be considered. This is a norm in many European countries and addresses accessibility, visibility and equality of opportunity. Fourth, our research represents a starting point and demonstrates gaps in the research landscape. Further research concerning disability, intersectionality and political representation should be prioritised and funded nationally.

As regards political parties, they should dismantle structural barriers to the participation of disabled people with intersecting identities in all aspects of their work. They should develop inclusion guidelines at the branch level, for example, that venues chosen for party meetings and modes of communication with party members are fully accessible and inclusive. Parties should also build intersectionality into existing supporting structures, for example, within the role of development officers. Political parties should seriously consider the need for greater diversity when proposing candidates for election and co-option, including disability and other identities.

Regarding civil society, civil society organisations should be funded and supported to establish and run regular training and mentoring for disabled people, including those with intersectional identities who want to explore the idea of putting themselves forward for election. Civil society organisations representing marginalised communities should consider how they can support members of their communities, including disabled people, to become politically active, including through running for election. Disabled people’s organisations should more seriously consider supporting their members to contest elections. In doing so, they should have regard to the need to prioritise diversity beyond disability among those supported. There really is a need for further funding for disabled people's organisations to support their work. I thank the committee for its time. We welcome questions, comments and feedback.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Dr. Price. I now invite members of the committee to put their questions. When I call them to speak, members should adhere to the agenda and the items for discussion. They have seven minutes in the first round and if we have time we will come to a second. The first speaker on the rota is Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony from Fianna Fáil. Gabh mo leithscéal, it is Deputy Toole from the regional Independent group.

Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. I would not have minded if Senator Murphy O'Mahony went ahead because I was late; apologies everybody. I thank the witnesses for meeting with us today and for the information provided in advance and I thank the team for the supports in advance of the meeting. I also thank Dr. Aoife Price who is joining us online. She has effectively produced and verbalised the handbook of what is required.

I will be brief in my questions. I thank the witnesses for the work they do. It is a huge amount of work and of a diverse range and is also expanding. Regarding the recommendations to Government based on the research that both sectors have provided, is there a specific timeline? What is the mechanism of follow-up as to when the recommendations are made? What is that to-and-fro process? Is it timely? Do things go on the long finger? It is a bit like a game of "Gladiators" where you want to get from A to B but you have all of these conflicting issues and prioritisation, etc., that get in the way. This is so fundamental, however. I also refer to resources. I ask this of nearly every group. Are the resources sufficient to carry out research, deliver the objectives that are in plans and deliver on the necessary feedback from disabled persons?

I was involved as a councillor with the Age Friendly Ireland committee in Meath County Council and it has always been said that if we design for age friendly, we design for everybody. I see a lot of delivery and collaboration between the Age Friendly Ireland steering committee and every Department at this stage. Is it possible for the sector to have a partnership to expedite but in parallel emphasise the core objectives as well? There may be more traction and it may be faster through something like that, given the massive overlap.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

I will come to the Deputy's last question first, if I may. We are a small organisation. We have 37 people working in it. Our staff complement is 52 and, as more functions and responsibilities are assigned to us, we will slowly build up the staff, but we are happy with the level of resources we have. The point about being a small unit is that we cannot do everything directly.

Most of our real work is done in collaboration with others. Interestingly, in all the elections we have had in the past year, we have turned up in community halls, rooms and groups all over the country. People like to hear from us but the thing that makes a lasting and sustained impact is if they hear from people like themselves. As people with disabilities say, "nothing about us without us". With Travellers, immigrants and young people, I turn up in a shirt and tie and a nice suit and I am hilarious, and people think that is great fun, but to deliver real change, they need to hear from Travellers, young people, elderly people and so forth. That collaboration is hugely important for us. I suspect we will end up, as part of our public engagement in education programme, funding groups and organisations to deliver some of these education programmes. It will be the main plank of how we reach out to all these - we do not allow the words "hard to reach" - groups. These groups are not hard to reach. They get up every day, live their lives and go about their business. It is just that the distance between them and us is huge.

Our role is to be in communities and spaces where these groups hang out in order to deliver a message in a way they will understand. For young people in particular, these spaces are virtual so we need to be on TikTok and all over social media. I have two teenage daughters. My two youngest kids are teenagers and they live their entire lives through the lens of TikTok. If we are not there, we cannot reach that audience, so it is important.

On the Deputy's first question about the response to our post-electoral event reviews, we have made a number of recommendations, some of which were easy, quick wins and some of which will require legislative change and policy development. The biggest recommendation from the last post-electoral event review is that there is one group of people who have to pay to vote. That is people with a disability who need to get certification from their doctors to apply for a postal vote. The National Disability Authority and disability groups have told me that this is a big barrier, because €25 is a lot of money to people like that. We need that charge to be removed. We need it to be waived as soon as possible. The people in the franchise section of the Department of housing are working hard to try to do that. They absolutely accept the recommendation. Whether it will be done in time for the presidential election is an open question because there are issues around negotiation with doctors' groups and so forth and they never go quickly. However, it is accepted that it is the right thing to do and that it must be done.

Approximately 15,000 people vote by post, of whom just 3,500 are people with a disability. I wonder for how many the €25 for certification is a barrier. We will continue to press that as a matter of supreme urgency. We are working in other areas such as accessibility of polling stations. There are 6,500 polling stations, with 2,700 polling centres. There is a small number of inaccessible polling stations. We will not quibble about the official figures for how many are inaccessible. There are figures that we have discovered through observation. One inaccessible polling station is one too many. There should not be a place where people go to vote that is inaccessible. We have observed all kinds of workarounds, including back doors and other ways of getting people to vote, which are not acceptable.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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With the indulgence of the committee, can I go to the people online? Does Dr. Price want to comment on any of those questions?

Dr. Aoife Price:

The point the Deputy made about age-friendly measures is also relevant to disabled people. When things are made more accessible to one group, they become more accessible to everyone and that is an important point.

Another interesting point was made relating to that. It is around intersectionality and other marginalised communities. For example, Professor Pauline Cullen in Maynooth University did research into Travellers and elections and public life. There are a lot of parallels in that and similarly, in work done with migrant rights organisations and literature that has been developed to support candidates. One of the candidates, who was a disabled LGBT male, used the literature from the migrant rights organisation, even though he was not a migrant. The idea that what is good for one community is good for many is important.

Talking about resources, funding is a huge issue for disabled people and particularly so for those with intersectional identities. There is a huge additional cost to that. We have seen in other jurisdictions that resources were made available to disabled candidates. That is something we would like to see here, as we said in the recommendations. That is important.

Professor Eilionóir Flynn:

I thank the Deputy for her questions. These are valuable contributions to the work we are all doing in this area. On collaboration, as researchers, we see ourselves as a resource for the Electoral Commission and Departments, especially the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage because we have ideas and examples from other jurisdictions, as Dr. Price mentioned, of how things could be organised in a different way.

On the timeframe, Mr. O'Leary already has mentioned the upcoming presidential election, so the time to start acting on this is now. It was yesterday, but it is also now. For forthcoming elections beyond the presidential election, thinking about the structures and regulations that govern them will take time. We did not set a timeframe in our research as to when these things should be addressed but we are here as a resource and are wiling to work with all the stakeholders in this field to ensure that we can help to develop more practical solutions that can increase the level of participation of disabled people, not just in voting, but also in standing for election, which was the focus of our research.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses and those who are online. I was really looking forward to today's session as it is combining two of my great interests. I am interested in the field of disability and anything about an election makes me buzz, whether I am involved or not.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

Us too.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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Maybe we are sad, but that is the way we rock. Voting is amazing. Whether people are rich or poor, it is one person, one vote and who they vote for is between a person and their maker. It is just amazing and it is a pity that a lot of people with disabilities feel they cannot vote if they want to. Again, choice is a huge thing. I welcome anything that would help a person with a disability to vote if they wish to do so and to participate in public life if they wish to do so.

Well done to the witnesses for the work done thus far.

In respect of the female gender quota, has the Electoral Commission ever considered something like that? This could give especially parties an incentive to run people who want to run and who have a disability. There are many people in the country with a disability and it would be great if a person with a disability ran. Has an incentive to encourage people with a disability to run ever come up?

Mr. Art O'Leary:

The Senator made some interesting points. With regard to the first point, about disabled people voting, we have started a national election and democracy study, which is a longitudinal study looking at voters and non-voters. We know nothing about voters in this country. We should be ashamed of ourselves, really. We know even less about people who do not vote. However, over the past three or four electoral events, we have done a deep dive into the reasons that people do not vote. Interestingly, 9% of the people who did not vote in the election last time said it was because of their disability. People with disabilities are a really important target audience for us.

We have not looked at something like a gender quota because it is not entirely in our wheelhouse. We look at voters. Candidacy is a little further down the value chain but it is something we cannot ignore, because if people are engaged in electoral politics, whether as a candidate or through involvement in running a campaign or campaigning in some way, it is much more likely to bring people with a disability out to vote. I am happy to extend our ambition to include encouraging people to run. Whatever we can do to support research in that regard, we will be happy to do.

Deputy O'Toole asked if we have sufficient funds for research, etc., and I am delighted to say that we do. We have a significant research budget but because we are a small organisation, we will probably outsource much of the research to specialists in the area. This is where I am a big fan of the work done by Dr. Price and Professor Flynn and we should be doing that an awful lot more. It is best to leave it to the experts and ask them to tell us what they think, and our Electoral Commission will have a look and be happy to make recommendations to the Government.

Professor Eilionóir Flynn:

Quotas are something we considered in this research. We did not have the scope to fully develop a recommendation on it in this work because we felt that much more conversation needs to be had with the disability community in Ireland about this. People expressed quite different views about quotas to us in the course of doing the research. As we hear about quotas all the time, will people feel they are only there because of the quota and not there because they deserve it? Will it really improve access or will it just be the same people again who take advantage of the quota and are able to use that to advance? I refer to white, physically disabled, straight men, for example. Our research was more focused on the more marginalised and intersecting identities of disabled people. Some participants in this research, particularly disabled women and queer people, were not sure if quotas would help them specifically. Even the quota we do have, as we know, does not extend beyond the Dáil franchise. Our research looked specifically at local government elections and at the European elections and it was not a factor there. A number of feminist organisations have called for the gender quota to be expanded beyond the Dáil, and it will be interesting to see more research on how that impacts. In particular, the way in which it is framed is quite useful because it is not a quota for the final seats and it does not impact on people's choices of who they want to vote for, but it does ensure a greater diversity of candidates on the ballot and that is, of course, what we wish to see from a disability perspective.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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With regard to the training of staff at the polling centre, the staff know the people who are going to vote and they are invariably very kind and helpful. If someone does not want a postal vote and enjoys going to physically vote, beyond kindness, are staff trained for that? Another thing that might be a good idea is to have an overseer. Most booths in my locality are in a GAA hall. There might be seven or eight booths and there is someone in charge of each one. What if there was someone to oversee the whole thing with regard to giving people a hand to get up to vote? Has the commission ever considered expanding training to something like that?

Dr. Aoife Price:

Co-option at local government level could work really well for disabled candidates. As Professor Flynn said, much more research needs to be done on the idea of quotas, but much more can be done to support disabled candidates in the meantime through, for example, support officers. We have seen the women's caucus happen in some local governments and at a national level, but there is nothing similar when it comes to disability. Co-option is a great opportunity, particularly at local level, to bring more disabled people into politics.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

Training is provided to all polling staff. There are occasional difficulties. There was no electoral event between 2020 and 2024 and when returning officers went out to gather together the polling staff for all of last year's electoral events, they discovered that in some cases up to half of the polling staff were not available. They had got too old, etc., and some of the demands, including being there from 6 a.m. to 10.30 p.m., are just too much for some people. For staff who were engaged at very short notice, this was a difficulty in the early parts of last year. However, we are confident that sufficient training is in place. Within An Coimisiún Toghcháin, all of our staff and commission members did disability awareness training once last year, and the people in the team Ms Delaney leads have done a deep dive into disability awareness training. They have done professional-level training to ensure that when we do the observation and we set the standards for all the polling stations we visit - we visited 300 polling stations last year during the course of these elections - we know exactly what we are looking for, both from a disability and accessibility perspective and from a support perspective for people who are there. There is much more we can do, but we look forward to making big inroads in this between now and 2029, which is the next scheduled electoral event after the presidential election.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Our witnesses are very welcome here this morning. After doing my little bit of research, I know Mr. O’Leary did his leaving certificate in Ardscoil Rís in 1984. I did mine with the Christian Brothers in Finglas just down the road the same year. What a fine vintage the leaving certificate students of 1984 were.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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That was a few years before me. The icing on the cake.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

Senator Clonan is carrying it better than me, if I can be so bold.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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The impact the Electoral Commission has had in the very short time it has been there has been very significant. I commend Mr. O’Leary on that. Part of the reason for that is the level of leadership shown by the witnesses. I have met them several times on the campaign trail, at the count in Trinity College Dublin and now here. Is there more than one Mr. Art O’Leary, we might question, not that there is any suggestion of impersonation or anything like that. I congratulate them.

As an academic for 22 years engaged in research, it has struck me many times since I came in here that many of the questions we explore at committee and in the debates in the Seanad could be addressed by collaboration with universities. I really want to thank Professor Flynn and Dr. Price for the incredible work they have done.

I will bundle my questions. Is there scope for further research? The contribution to knowledge is really important. As was said, we do not know enough about the voters and the non-voters but the work the commission has done and the findings the witnesses presented here today are a very significant contribution to knowledge. Is there scope for continued collaboration? Is funding available for that?

I am aware that voter turnout is a concern generally. I do not know if the witnesses will know the answer to this, but is the turnout among disabled citizens broadly in line with voter turnout in the general population? On the question of intersectionality, queers, Travellers and ethnicity is there any information on turnout there? I note the very interesting figure of 9% of disabled citizens citing this as a reason not to vote. My final two questions are for all the witnesses. Is there any single action we could take, or any kind of low-hanging fruit, that would really assist or accelerate accessibility on that basis? Where are we in relation to the UNCRPD now that Ireland has fully ratified the optional protocol? Are we compliant with the UNCRPD in terms of the work the Electoral Commission does?

Mr. Art O'Leary:

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Seanadóir. I also thank him for his kind words about our work. We have a brilliant team at An Coimisiún Toghcháin. There is a large range of very diverse skills but the one thing that every single person in the building has is fire in their belly and passion about democracy. We jump out of bed in the morning saying that we can make a real difference to people's lives here so let us go and make that difference. That is the culture of the organisation, which was possible because we are new. We did not take over from somebody and say that we must do a culture change in all of these things. We are building an organisation that can sustain for 100 years and which can make a real difference to people's lives. Senator Clonan spoke about the "low-hanging fruit". The last year and a half has been a period like no other. Every single electoral event that is possible to have is happening in this period. Not only is it an opportunity for us to really jump in and be everywhere, as was indicated, it is also a glorious opportunity to learn. As an organisation we learn by doing. We are two years old and like every two-year-old sometimes we are crawling around on the floor trying to absorb as much information as we can. We need to use this information and build on it to make a real difference, based on evidence that we have discovered.

This comes into the Senator's point about research. Research is the future of everything. We will make recommendations, based on evidence, for electoral reform to encourage people to play a larger part in electoral events. We hope that the Government and the Oireachtas would be persuaded by that evidence because it will be an expert view, having considered issues from all perspectives. As I mentioned to Deputy Toole, we have sufficient funding right now for what it is that we need to do. Our research programme, which members may have seen, is ambitious and covers a huge amount. It is the same with education and research where we focus on groups experiencing barriers.

The voter turnout question is always interesting. On the turnout for postal voters, there are 15,000 postal voters and turnout is 62%, which is not dissimilar to the turnout across the rest of the country. We do not know how many of those who turn out are disabled people because votes are private. We do know that some 3,500 of those 15,000 are disabled. In the local and European Parliament elections we focused on disability in particular so we know that 22% of people who voted claimed to have had a disability, which aligns perfectly with the CSO results as well. Some were sceptical about that figure because people assume that those with glasses must have said they had a disability too. There are, however, many forms of disability as well, some visible and some not so visible. All we know is that there is a group of people with a disability who experience barriers to voting, whether these are physical, informational or attitudinal. Something that is coming back very strongly is that a number of people did not go out to vote the last time because they did not know who to vote for. We need to do much more in that regard. Now with technology a person should be able to come onto our website and click on the constituency so that his or her ballot paper should pop up a week before an electoral event, which will give the person an opportunity. Things like the use of technology will give us a real opportunity to try to improve that turnout figure.

Professor Eilionóir Flynn:

In terms of the funding landscape our research on this topic was funded by the National Disability Authority, as mentioned. The funding the authority had available was not specific to political participation or to elections; it was about marginalised communities within the disability community. We were interested in elections so we focused our research on that particular space. Once we have completed this part of the research we are eager to do even more work in this area. Unfortunately we do not currently have the resources to deepen this work and to do more comparative work with our colleagues across Europe, to understand disabled people's experiences of voting and standing for election in the European elections, for example, which is research we would really love to do. We are always open to other ways. We have been very creative in finding different pockets of funding that we can use to do our work but doing this kind of work properly takes time and resources. We are always interested in finding more time and more resources for that.

With regard to low-hanging fruit my suggestion, as mentioned by Dr. Price in her opening statement, would be in establishing access to an elected office fund simply to cover the disability-related costs that are faced by disabled electoral candidates, and which are not currently covered and are additional costs that non-disabled candidates do not face. A similar fund has existed, with various names, in the UK through various elections. That would be an easy win and a way to make people feel "Okay, this is something I can actually do and I can run for election". This could, for example, cover the cost of having a sign language interpreter for a deaf candidate so that he or she can canvass with a sign language interpreter. Those costs are significant and otherwise people are trying to meet them themselves. This is really unfair when that is not a cost faced by non-disabled candidates.

On the Senator's query about Ireland's compliance with the UNCRPD, we could be here all day, even on Article 29. I do not believe we are there yet. I do not believe we are there yet on any of the articles of the convention to be frank. Now is a very interesting time given that the Irish Government will be before the UN Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in September. The UN committee will be developing the list of issues for Ireland as the next stage in the dialogue process so now is a great moment to raise these issues with the UN committee, which will be very interested to see what progress Ireland is making on this point. I would also emphasise that we have had some success. It is important to acknowledge that we have now abolished the provision in the Electoral Act that said a person of unsound mind was unfit to stand for election to the Dáil or the Seanad, or in the presidential election. It is really useful that this archaic language is gone and we welcome that but these formal restrictions were not really the main barrier holding people back from actually standing for election, which is the focus of our work. Beyond that, Article 29 is about much more than just elections and voting, much as we are interested in those things in particular. It is about participation in public life and in political life and there are lots of ways to participate in political life, like presenting to a committee such as this. It is about engaging in the development of legislation and policy in a meaningful way and not just a tick-box exercise of a consultation questionnaire that Government Departments need to do. It is about doing so in a more meaningful and diverse way, consulting people to actually understand their views and take them on board, and taking those seriously in the development of laws and policies. This is where we really have much more room to improve when it comes to Article 29.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Professor Flynn.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise for coming in and out. I am trying to be in two places at once and I am not very good at it. This discussion breaks quite easily into two parts. Obviously, first of all it is about enfranchisement and then it is about that wider idea of political life. In fairness, a fair amount has already been thrown out like the obvious stuff about the certification payment and whatever. That is obvious. One is literally putting an added cost on somebody to actually engage in the process, which is just wrong.

It is about making sure we have a system that works and is fit for purpose, starting at the polling station, to a degree, and then in relation to how we facilitate people, depending on their disability. In fairness, Mr. O'Leary spoke about ensuring people are getting the correct information. We spoke previously in another committee about disinformation and whatever else. It is about making sure that whole piece is done. In real terms, we are nowhere next to near where we should be on postal votes and proxy votes in general. We are not facilitating a significant number of people anyway, be it people who are not in the State because they are on holidays or for whatever other reason, and the complex lives people have.

We must ensure we have a framework that works. The research piece is necessary, in particular post-electoral research or getting direct information. We must also ensure we get direct information from those who know, be it directly from individuals but also specifically from those organisations that we believe do very good advocacy work. It is about putting all of that into play. In fairness, one of the submissions we have is from Usher Syndrome Ireland about the very specific issue of people who are deaf and blind. It is very obvious that the accommodation they need is a hell of a lot more than many others. How do we ensure all this happens? Political parties have a bigger job to do, but we must also ensure there is funding and supports for individuals so they can engage. Sometimes, being involved in a political party involves meeting up and rapping on doors, putting leaflets through doors or attending a particular protest. That is going to knock out a significant number of people. When a party is looking for candidates for a local election, the easiest person to run generally is some young fellow who plays Gaelic football and is involved in 14 other things, meaning you could be starting with 300 or 400 votes on the basis of the candidate and his wider family. There are wider implications. We have a lot further to go to make this a level playing field. I am sorry it took me so long to get those questions across. I would be delighted and impressed if the witnesses could deal with them in about three and a half minutes.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

I will do my best. On the issue of postal voting, going back to our election study data, in the local elections, the European Parliament elections and the general election, more than half the people who did not vote said that it was because they could not vote. They were either away from home on the day, they had work commitments or they had caring responsibilities. Some of the headlines about turnout after the election were probably a little too easy. For example, it was suggested that because 59.6% of people voted, 40% of the population do not care enough about politics, or are disenfranchised or apathetic. The story is much more complicated than that. We are going to do some very strong research in the postal voting and advance voting area sometime in the next year with a view to bringing forward recommendations about perhaps making it easier for people to vote.

Collaboration is the key to everything. I touched on this earlier. We are a small organisation so we will reach into seldom heard and seldom seen groups by using organisations, representative groups, etc. as well. We will be very happy to fund them, both in the area of research and in activities and events to encourage their communities and groups to get involved in electoral politics, to get them registered to vote, to teach them how their vote works and how to vote and, more importantly, to turn up on polling day itself to vote.

Dr. Price and Professor Flynn have done some brilliant research on disabled candidates. We should also acknowledge the work of Dr. Vivian Rath who cannot be here with us today. He has been a shining and strong advocate for the disabled sector for many years. He should be applauded for that work. This research work will start that conversation. I hope it will lead to a greater debate nationally on the importance of getting people with a disability more involved in electoral politics. One way is as simple as registering to vote and using their vote at election time. They can also support a disabled candidate or be a disabled candidate themselves. It does not matter where they play a part along the value chain, as long as they get out of bed every day and do something to help in that regard. There you go: two and a half minutes.

Professor Eilionóir Flynn:

There is a lot we can do at the grass roots as well. Deputy Ó Murchú mentioned that when people are well connected in their communities that makes them well positioned to run for political office. Disabled people are well connected within the disability communities that they are part of, and they may be part of many other communities. The candidates we spoke to were disabled women and disabled queer people. They are part of feminist organisations and queer movements and they can draw on that support. What they felt overwhelmingly is that they did not get the amount of support they wanted or needed from the organisations that they were a part of, or that they were hoping would provide more support in terms of their identities, but also from the political parties. Some people specifically talked about running as Independents because they could not get the support they wanted from political parties in terms of meeting their access needs as a candidate. That is very disappointing. It is something we can work to fix within political party structures. I think about the work of local development officers within political parties, who can cast the net more widely about who in the community could be a good candidate and who is an important voice in the community that they would like to encourage to run for public office and to give them the support they need to achieve that goal.

Dr. Aoife Price:

The point about being part of the community is very relevant. Something that came up within our research is that even the ability to get to the front door to canvass was a struggle for some people. Another issue that came up is something Professor Flynn mentioned about disabled people who may be active within their disability community so their supporters may be other disabled people and therefore they face additional barriers. Another issue that arose was fatigue and not being able to go out and canvass after a day's work. For some, not being able to get to the door, physically, was an issue. That is an important point to remember. Disabled people may be involved in a disability community and therefore their supporters may also be disabled people, which may result in additional barriers.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses and Deputy Ó Murchú. That concludes round one. I have a quick query.

As the witnesses and others have referenced, and as we are all aware, there are cases of people who have an access problem getting into a polling station. Do we have figures on the number of polling stations where we still have problems? Is there a follow-up from that? This is not specifically about disability but are issues followed up after an election? For instance, in my constituency there is an issue that does not relate to disability but to the extremely low level of participation in public and political life that Dr. Price referred to in her opening statement. The turnout in Limerick, for instance, which was replicated across the State, was very low last year. That is of great concern. In my constituency there was an issue with the ballot paper, which was not printed correctly. That led to a potential legal challenge for up to 30 days after the election. It was not a nice place to be for many of us who were candidates. Having legal people standing ready to go to the High Court on polling day itself is something we do not ever want to have to face again.

Thousands of people across the north side of Limerick did not get polling cards, which also reduced the turnout. Has there been any follow-up on that issue and other similar issues that I imagine were replicated across the State? I have probably broken all the rules of the committee by saying that because I tell people to stay within the remit of the discussion at hand.

I believe polling cards not being sent out reduces turnout among the entire population, including disabled people.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

There was a particular difficulty in Limerick that was drawn to our attention on the day. I did a couple of interviews on Live 95 to assure people they did not need their polling card because you do not need your polling card to vote. It caused particular difficulties in the John F. Kennedy school in Limerick, where there were ten or 11 polling stations in the polling centre. When somebody turned up with a polling card, they did not know which table they were supposed to be at. They were told they were not on the register there, so they left. We encourage people to check the register to get their electoral number to bring that with them as well.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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The problem with that is people in marginalised areas sometimes do not have the ability to check the register and if they do not get a polling card, they believe they cannot go to vote. I remember Mr. O'Leary on Live 95. I was on social media as well. We did not reach all the people we needed to reach.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

I accept that, and we learned from that experience. We have spoken with An Post about this. I have some sympathy for An Post because it is trying to send out 3.7 million polling cards in a short period of time. Some of them go missing, for whatever reason. Socks go missing in my washing machine and I cannot explain it. We need to do more to make sure everybody gets a polling card. Part of our communications message in the run-up to polling day will be that you do not need your polling card to vote. If you can, try to get your electoral number, but if you cannot, when you turn up at most polling stations, you can explain where you live or there will be a big sign outside saying that if you live on Main Street, Skibbereen, you are at polling station No. such-and-such. There is a lot of work to be done at a logistical level. The issue might be the misprinting of the ballot paper, which I hope is a one-off and will not be repeated. A lot of hard lessons were learned in that case. All of the returning officers pay particular attention to that.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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The other issue is that people raised concerns about disability access to the polling station. Is there a follow-up on that so when the presidential election is on, we do not go back to seeing problems in polling stations for the same people?

Mr. Art O'Leary:

We have spoken with all the returning officers about this. In every case where we identified an inaccessible polling station we have gone to the returning officer.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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They have done that.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

We have done that. We have been to 300 in the past year or so. We may be of some assistance to returning officers here. Particularly in rural areas, if you cannot use the two-classroom school in a village, the nearest accessible centre might be between 12 and 15 km away. Some of them say they have got no voters with a disability they are aware of, so it is safe to use this. I do not think that is good enough. However, in areas where works were required to put in a ramp, they have gone to the Department of Education, which has refused to fund it because there is no day-to-day need. There are no pupils with a disability in that school, and they will not fund it because it is a once in every five years event. This is an area where we will start to dip our toe in the water. In this day and age, there should be no such thing as an inaccessible public building. Our acceptable figure for polling stations with no accessibility is zero.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Members will go in the same order in the second round. The first contributor is Senator Murphy O'Mahony.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I would stay here all day talking about this.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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You have five minutes.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I was only joking.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

Yes, please do not.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I did not mean it from that point of view. I meant I had not said it to her.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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No problem. I agree with the waiver of the €25, but there could be a publicity campaign about postal votes in general. I think people are mixed up. We have people telling us they are on holiday or going to Spain for a week and asking for a postal vote. People are unaware of the circumstances where they can get a postal vote. There could be a media campaign now for the presidential election and hopefully by the time it comes the €25 would be waived. Are there any plans for a media campaign? Waiving the €25 would be huge, but is there any other way? Someone could call to somebody to explain how the postal vote works. I know that is a minuscule area to go into. I do not think it is just the €25 stopping people applying for it. It is obviously a contributing factor but there must be more to it. Maybe people lack confidence and are afraid to seem foolish in front of their doctor. Is there any way to entice people to use the postal vote?

Mr. Art O'Leary:

It would be huge for us. The difficulty with the general election was the shortness of the campaign. It was three weeks. An election was called on a Friday. The deadline for closing of postal votes is two days after a dissolution, which was the Sunday. People had a weekend. Our experience is somewhat similar to that of the Passport Office. Irish people tend to check their passports are in order the day before they go on holidays. It is the same with voting. We will have a focused campaign across what will be longer deadlines in the presidential election. For the last couple of presidential elections, the polling day order was made at the end of August for an election that took place at the end of October. There is lots of room in there to get people registered to vote. If 22% of the population is indeed disabled, we should have more than 3,564 disabled people registered to vote. We need to do much better. There is an opportunity for us to campaign properly. The Senator is right that it is not just disability. Our evidence suggests that between 30% and 40% of people did not vote in the elections last year because they felt that politics had nothing to do with them. They did not know who to vote for, and they did not think their single vote would make a difference. This is a real opportunity for us to go to change their minds.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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It is very wide, is it not?

Mr. Art O'Leary:

Yes, it is huge. It is a significant number of people. When you think about what it takes to change turnout by simply a couple of percent, there are huge gaps here. There are the people who cannot vote and the people who do not vote because they think politics has nothing to do with them. There is a huge education opportunity there for us to try to make a difference. The Senator spoke about calling to people's houses. If it means that every member of An Coimisiún Toghcháin's staff has to spend the coming five years knocking on doors and visiting every sitting room in the country to persuade people to vote, we will not rule it out if that is what it is going to take. We will find ways to collaborate with groups and organisations to help them. Going back to the point I made earlier of nothing about us without us, they do not necessarily want to hear from us. Young people want to hear from other young people, as do people with a disability. It is the same with Travellers, immigrants and homeless people. All of these groups who have a tendency not to vote want to hear from people like them. That is what we will do. We will fund those campaigns.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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They want to hear from people they can identify with. I thank Mr. O'Leary.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for not being here earlier. In the previous term I served as chairperson of the Joint Committee on Autism. I did a lot of work in the area of promoting inclusivity. We developed a project in Leinster House. I felt that if we were going to make people aware everywhere else or ask other organisations or places to make a change, we needed to make those changes here first. We have the highest standards of an autism friendly parliament in the world. Families or school groups can come to do the tour of Leinster House. All the staff, political staff and TDs also undertook an autism friendly training programme. More than 1,000 people took part in that. We are aware of what it is for someone to be in the autistic community.

I have always felt that more changes have been made because more people are aware and understand. That is something that we need to roll out across all Government Departments. We have started here in that area and we need to expand on that across all disabilities, such that we understand and know the changes that need to be made because this is where they can be and are made. That is something we need to do within the political system. When we are talking about participating in political life and the political system, as politicians we need to know and understand.

The project I mentioned was an example of a fantastic project that was done here. People took part in it and we have seen a lot changes coming on the back of that because now people understand. That is something that we should push and work on to make sure it happens here. The model is there. Three other Government Departments and a number of agencies have been involved, as has the GAA. We spoke with the GAA a couple of years ago. The association opened a sensory room in the museum in Croke Park that services the stadium as well and it is working towards accreditation. I am highlighting some of the work that is being done in here but there is more to be done. This is an old building and it is not perfect but hopefully we are on the right track.

Regarding voting, when I was involved in the local authority at home in Longford we were constantly asking the returning officers why they were closing the schools when there was a local community centre available and so on. The straight answer we got back from the returning officers was that they had to make sure that every single voting centre has disability access. I know that is the case in every polling centre in County Longford. The straight answer was that this was their number one priority. That is the right way to be thinking and is the way every returning officer should think. It is essential to make sure that everyone has access.

I believe that every person with a disability who is registered with a disability organisation should have an automatic entitlement to a postal vote. They should not have to get a certificate signed by a doctor. Our guests mentioned a figure of 3,500 out of 20% of the population. There has to be a way of collating that information, making contact with people and asking them if they want to have a postal vote. It should be automatic. They should not need to get a doctor to certify that they have a disability to get a postal vote. That is something that should be taken on board by the Electoral Commission. I suggest it make a recommendation on that. People should not have to pay for that, at a minimum.

We are lucky in that we have a number of people with disabilities who are Members of the Oireachtas, including Senators Conway and Bradley. The latter is a member of this committee. They are fantastic advocates for the disability community. We need to harness their experience-----

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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If the Deputy wants answers to his questions, he should be aware that he is running out of time.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I really just want to make a point. I want to highlight things that I feel could be done and ways that we could make sure the electoral system is more inclusive. Those in the disability community should not be expected to pay that fee. We have a system there. I will give Mr. O'Leary the remaining time to comment.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

I agree entirely with the Deputy's first point. In a previous life I spent 20 happy years in this building as a member of the Oireachtas staff. I spent 11 of those years in this room as director of committees. I absolutely understand the importance of the Oireachtas committee system as a political forum in which to start the debate and actually get things done. The work that happens in committees like this, which is why I am always delighted to come, is so important. It is in rooms like this that recommendations, ideas and information are gathered and where people can make a real difference.

The issue of accessibility and using schools as polling stations is absolutely valid. People have come to us and asked why we do not vote on Saturdays to obviate the need to close the schools. We voted on Saturday in 2020 in the general election and turnout was down by 2%. For many working parents, Saturday is like Christmas Eve. It is the time to do the big shop, bring the children to GAA, swimming and horse riding and do all of the things that happen in busy people's lives. In terms of this committee's perspective, that would have a profound effect on people with a disability because many of them do not have caring supports at weekends. They can be supported and transported to polling stations on weekdays but not on Saturdays. In that sense, it is a wider issue. We are going to do some significant research on advance, audio and postal voting in the next eight to 12 months. This will answer some of the questions the Deputy raised about the importance of making it easier for people to vote. We need to provide alternatives and I entirely agree with the Deputy's point that if people cannot see it, they cannot be it. The greatest advocates for people with disability in political life are people with a disability in political life. I entirely agree with that and whatever we can do to support that, as part of a wider engagement to encourage people to be involved, we will be very happy to do.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank our guests for being with us this morning. I noticed that in both opening statements assistive and new technologies are mentioned as a way to increase participation, especially in voting. As a behaviour consultant who really saw the change that assistive technology can make to my neurodiverse clients, I am interested in hearing how they see that working within polling stations.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

In terms of developments in technology across the world, we are looking at what people do in other countries in order to make it easy for people to vote. We dipped our toe into this area last year when we made it much easier for people to register to vote. It takes two minutes and 57 seconds to register to vote. The point we were making in the hundreds of media interviews that we did was that while people were waiting for their kettle to boil for their cup of coffee in the morning, they could register to vote. In that one-year period, we ran three campaigns in advance of all of the electoral events and 500,000 new people joined the register on the basis of those campaigns and the fact that it was so easy to register. We could not convert those 500,000 new registrants into people who actually voted for the first time because it is hard to vote. You have to go to a particular place, on a particular day, during particular hours, and if you cannot do even one of those three things, then you are off the team and cannot vote.

We are exploring a number of options, as part of our research, which will use technology to make it much easier for people to vote. This is not just about the act of voting itself but also the way that we provide information to people in advance. One of the big reasons that people gave for not voting in the last election was that they did not know for whom to vote. We have to make it easier. We need to be showing people ballot papers in advance so that they can do their research. In order to do this properly, there is a bit of drudgery to be done. People have to look up the candidates and what they stand for and so on. There was an initiative being run out of the University of Limerick, for example, under Dr. Rory Costello, called WhichCandidate.ie. People can put in their constituency and the issues in which they are interested and it gives them a suggested candidate. It has been peer reviewed. I do wonder about things like that but many people use it. The Irish Independent did something similar in an initiative involving Professor David Farrell. It is not just about voting on the day but about everything up to that as well.

Increasingly, I hear from my electoral management body colleagues that electoral commissions all over the world are becoming less about monitoring and managing elections and more about all of the work that happens between electoral events, including education, the electoral register and research. All of these things are the heavy lifting, the work that gets done in between electoral events. It is no longer just simply about polling day and the count centres. To my mind, we should be called the democracy commission.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Does Ms Price want to come in?

Dr. Aoife Price:

I was also going to make the point that the paper-based procedure for standing for election was also brought up as a limitation by one of our participants, who thought it would be better online and that it currently is a difficulty and a barrier.

To go back to voting, we must acknowledge that for people with disabilities, there is often an additional divide. Often, it can be more of a challenge for people with intellectual disabilities. Sometimes, if the digital technology is not of a particular kind, it can have an impact on people's privacy or the secrecy of the ballot. These are all things we need to be cognisant of when supporting people in using technology to vote.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank both guests. The IWA in Belmullet, County Mayo, was mentioned, as was Western Care in Mayo. Both organisations really went as far as they could to ensure their service users could exercise their right. It would be interesting to have a breakdown, by county, of service providers who went out of their way to ensure their residents could vote. It might be interesting to examine the difference in the participation level where there are active organisations that care.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

It makes a difference, and not just at organisational level or in respect of representative groups. We are aware that having family and friends vote is the best way to encourage people to vote. We were delighted to work with the Irish Wheelchair Association in Belmullet because it does brilliant work. We were able to follow the lived experience. We turned up at hundreds of polling stations at various electoral events in the last year and chanced upon people with disabilities. It was a brilliant opportunity to follow their progress from leaving their houses to voting and getting home, and to examine issues including those relating to transportation. This is the way forward for us. We should be doing it with more groups, including homeless people, immigrants and Travellers. We should be doing all this to find out people’s lived experience. Even after a year of doing post-electoral event reviews, they are becoming much more sophisticated and laser-like in focusing on actual barriers that people experience.

After Covid, when we do all sorts of things by tapping a card, including paying for coffee, I thought that Irish people would be much more confident about using technology to vote. It appears not. At some point, we will have to have a national conversation about the use of technology. We have a very paper-based electoral process. You vote manually and the votes are counted manually. It is very transparent and Irish people love it, but the downside is that it can be confusing to some. It is perhaps a little harder. We are still dealing with spoiled votes. The members will have been at count centres and must have been shocked by some of the spoiled votes they saw. We have been in dozens of count centres-----

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Crying over spoiled votes.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

It is very much a-----

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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And the rules that relate to them as well when there are question marks.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

Indeed. It is eye-opening. We need to do much more. There may be something we can do on the technology side to speed up the counting process. There is one other country that has the same electoral system as us for national elections, namely Malta. Malta has just introduced electronic counting. It scans all the ballot papers and counts electronically. We will have a close look at that. It is just one of those things we will explore. Some of the challenges we face electorally are shared ones that every electoral management body in the world faces. The solutions will not be found just here; they will be found among people beyond our shores.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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We are running out of time. I want to come to Dr. Price, who has indicated a desire to speak.

Dr. Aoife Price:

It is great to hear examples of organisations supporting people to vote. This is really important. However, it is also really important for the organisations to support people who want to stand for election. That was not the experience of people who took part in our research. People felt more representative organisations should have stood behind them and supported them.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, we have lost sound. Is Dr. Price on mute?

Dr. Aoife Price:

I am not on mute.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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We have sound now.

Dr. Aoife Price:

I was just saying it was great to hear about organisations supporting disabled people to vote. However, in our research that was one area in respect of which people spoke about being-----

Dr. Aoife Price:

They did not feel they got the support from the representative organisations in standing for election or amplifying their voice in getting their message out. That could be examined in greater detail, for sure.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Dr. Price. I advise her that we lost some of her content, but we got most of it. We understand her point. It was no fault of Dr. Price; it was to do with a technical issue here.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

May I make just one brief point? Let me offer a cautionary note on postal voting, in particular. We have to take into account the electoral integrity here. The widespread opening of the vote to postal voting does entail security issues, and there are integrity issues. We would have to be very sure there are safeguards in place, and this is why we are doing the research on it. In principle, it sounds very simple to allow everybody to have a postal vote, perhaps in the way it was done in the UK at the time of the last election, such that people would become more engaged; however, Irish people have great confidence in the security of the electoral process, which is why they have such trust in electoral outcomes and results. Anything that might be open to greater electoral fraud, etc., might cast some doubt on that. Therefore, we have to tread very carefully.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I agree on the issue of integrity, but it is a case of finding a way to allow more people to vote. That is the big idea. Did Mr. O’Leary say something about an action plan?

Mr. Art O'Leary:

Yes.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What is contained in the action plan? Will it be forthcoming at the end of the year?

Mr. Art O'Leary:

Yes. With the assistance of many external stakeholders, we are currently developing an education and public engagement programme that will reach out to schools, groups experiencing barriers, people involved in lifelong education, and the great swath of Irish people. We are going to pull together a strategy before the end of the year for how, in the period to 2029, we will reach out to ensure that everybody is eligible to vote and on the register, that everyone understands how to vote, how their vote works and the importance of voting, and that everybody will be encouraged to vote at election time.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What about the research and information?

Mr. Art O'Leary:

All the evidence will be put together with recommendations in a strategy, which will be turned into an action plan with measurable activities and objectives on which this committee can hold us to account between now and the next scheduled electoral events, in 2029.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Thanks a million. Two points arise. We can all see the advantage of assistive technology at times. What research is being done on that? The idea of electronic vote counting is relatively sound and takes away the idea that there are still uncounted votes. It is very simple and the results can easily be checked afterwards.

I wish to revert to two questions I asked previously. They concern the very specific issue of deafblindness and the issue we dealt with as regards disinformation. Again, there are wider implications, even for people with certain disabilities.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

On the deafblind, time probably did not permit me to answer as fully as I could have. The deafblind are an important group and they experience particular barriers. It is our job to highlight these and ensure they are taken away. The deafblind are very much in our line of sight, in both the education programme and the integrity programmes. This is an area in respect of which we need to do much more.

On misinformation and disinformation, as I am sure members will know, Part 5 of the Electoral Reform Act has yet to be commenced.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

Some of this has been overtaken by the Digital Services Act. There are new EU regulations on online political advertising which have overtaken that. I am assured by the Department that there will be legislation to deal with that in advance of the 2029 elections, so that will give us an opportunity.

In the absence of hard regulatory powers, we created a framework. We got all the social media companies into a room and agreed a framework on what we expected from them about the transparency of online advertising and the use of AI. The increasing use of AI needs to be both labelled properly and appropriate. Also, there is the use of misinformation and disinformation content with a view to misleading people in respect of the electoral process. We have been very impressed by our engagement with the social media companies. The Deputy was sceptical about that the last time we spoke. I cannot say that he was wrong or that I was right, because we have been fortunate in this country that we have not come across any evidence of the use of misinformation or disinformation which might impact on electoral integrity. We will have another opportunity to examine this. Perhaps the election in October, because it is a very different type of election, that the opportunity might be greater here but we have systems in place to make sure that we can deal with that properly.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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My other question was on assistive technologies. Are there are any big asks in the context of changing matters when it comes to engagement?

Mr. Art O'Leary:

We are doing some big research in this area. We have what he called blue-sky research. That involves an open research call to everybody who has expertise in all these areas, including assistive technology. We ask them to pitch research projects to us and we will fund them. That process is under way. I hope that this will reveal somebody, probably in a boxroom somewhere, with an idea about the use of technology which we will encourage. We look forward to seeing what emerges from that.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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That finishes the second round of questions. I agree with what Senator Carrigy said about registering disabled people to vote. Doing that through their organisations may be the way to go, particularly if all of those involved are registered with those organisations. Is the Electoral Commission interested in providing funding to these organisations? Mr. O'Leary stated that the commission probably has a small bit of money left over.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

Yes.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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It might be possible to use the money in that way.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

Yes, we will.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Perhaps the commission could produce a policy document or simple fact sheet on how to register. It should try to link in with the organisations that have people on their lists in any event.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

We will be happy to look at that. If there are expenses involved, it would certainly be something we would be happy to consider. The real benefit of representative groups is that they are with these people all the time.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Mr. Art O'Leary:

It is not just people with disabilities; it is also Travellers, immigrants and young people. I am astonished that schools do not take five minutes at the start of every school year to get students to use their iPads to register to vote. Those who are 16 and 17 years of age are able to pre-register to vote, which means their names will be added to the electoral register when they reach 18. I do know that 2% of 16-year-olds and 17-year-olds have pre-registered to vote. I do not look at this as necessarily a bad thing; I look at it as an opportunity because the other 98% have not pre-registered. These people are a marketer's dream. We know who they are - they are 16-year-olds and 17-year-olds and we know where they are. Between September and May, they are in school. We also know that they are there between 9 a.m. and 4 p.m. We should be able to target them much better than we currently do.

In the context of anyone who is experiencing difficulties with the costs associated with registering, what I would say is that registering takes such a short time. All we need is someone's personal public service number, their date of birth and their eircode, and in two minutes and 57 seconds, we can get them on the register. It takes no time at all. It could be done when someone is attending a meeting, having lunch or whatever at a community centre. As I mentioned briefly to the Chairman, we were in St. Munchin's Community Centre in Limerick during the mayoral election campaign. It was brilliant to see a group of engaged people. I am not sure how happy they were that we interrupted their game of bingo, but went in and encouraged them all to vote in the election. These are the spaces in which we need to be.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank witnesses for their useful contributions and members for their questions. I also thank everyone for attending. I propose that all of the opening statements be published on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will go into private session to discuss other issues. Is that agreed? Agreed.