John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Before we begin, I will read a note on privilege and housekeeping matters. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that would be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction I may make.

Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirements that to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. This is due to the constitutional requirement that to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit. In this regard, I ask any members participating on Microsoft Teams to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex if they wish to make a contribution. I remind all those in attendance to make sure their mobile phones are switched off or in silent mode.

I welcome from the Local Development Companies Network, Mr. Philip O'Donnell, research, policy and rural affairs officer, Mr. Terry Hyland, chief executive officer of Cavan County Local Development, and Mr. Thomas Fitzpatrick, chairperson; from Irish Rural Link, Ms Louise Lennon, policy and communications officer; and from the Public Participation Network, Ms Grainne Fleming, Kildare PPN co-ordinator, and Ms Siobhan Cronogue, Longford PPN co-ordinator.

The committee welcomes the opportunity to engage with the witnesses.

I thank all those who have contributed to the committee's call for pre-budget submissions. Engagement and consultations are very much key to the process and the committee is aware of the importance of citizens' engagement and deliberative democracy. Many of the submissions received are from those actively involved in supporting our communities to grow and develop. We commend them and look forward to reviewing the contents of their submissions as part of the committee's wider examination in advance of budget 2026. I now invite the Local Development Companies Network to make its opening remarks.

Mr. Philip O'Donnell:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to be here this morning. The Local Development Companies Network, LDCN, is the national representative body for local development companies, LDCs, in Ireland. LDCs are not for profit and community-based. They deliver a wide range of Government-funded and EU-funded programmes that address poverty and social inclusion through local and community development. LDCs deliver services on an integrated basis, with a suite of individual and household supports in areas like employment, education, disability, health and well-being, and parenting delivered under one roof in tandem with a broad range of community-level supports like social enterprise, climate and environment, and outdoor recreation and tourism.

It is clear from the work of LDCs on the ground that while the Irish economy is performing strongly overall, it is not working equally well for everyone. Consistent poverty stands at 5% but this rises to 19% among people unable to work due to a disability, 11% among single-parent households and more than 8% among children. We understand that welfare measures were discussed at last week's sitting of this committee. Important as these measures are, local development companies focus on building people's capabilities to work, engage with society and contribute meaningfully to their communities.

The social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP, is a central to this work. It is the State’s flagship social inclusion programme and a key pillar of its anti-poverty strategy. Funding for SICAP today is only around 60% of what it was in 2007. On the demand side, an analysis of the POBAL deprivation indices that we performed last year showed that between 2016 and 2022, the number of communities classified as “very disadvantaged” or “extremely disadvantaged” rose by 60% and the number of people living in these communities more than doubled. While welfare is essential for containing poverty, it cannot do the kind of community development that trends like this tell us is vital. That requires boots on the ground. One area where we see the impact of those boots on the ground is in the area of migrant integration, which is supported by the new arrivals funding, first introduced in 2022. This €10 million annual fund is essential and should be retained. It also needs to be moved to a multi-annual footing. Currently, staff are hired under this programme on one-year contracts and must be put on protective notice every December while waiting for confirmation of continued funding. Formalising this fund within the five-year SICAP framework would address the issue overnight.

We highlight in our pre-budget submission the value of community employment, Tús and the rural social scheme. These schemes benefit not just participants but whole communities. The recent review of the rural social scheme, RSS, warned that declining participation could leave rural areas without vital services. LDCs do all they can to make these schemes appealing but the €27.50 weekly to-up payment is increasingly inadequate. Sometimes it is not even enough to cover the transportation costs involved in participation. We are supporting a phased increase of €7.50 per week per year for the next three years, in addition to any underlying welfare increases.

We also encourage greater alignment between our national and European funding efforts. We are especially keen to draw attention to the opportunity presented by INTERREG, which is about addressing regional, economic and infrastructural disparities across Europe. Most community organisations are aware of INTERREG funding but they are unable to tap into it because of matched funding constraints. A €1 million annual national fund to bridge that gap could potentially unlock €3 million annually from Europe. This would not be without precedent. Belgium and the Netherlands do it already and they reap very sizeable rewards. From an Irish point of view, it is a simple, high-return investment that would bolster the social economy and support our regions. In this and in other areas the infrastructure is already in place and it has proven itself to be robust, dynamic and effective whenever supported.

Similarly, the LEADER food initiative supported 168 local producers while operational between 2018 and 2021. A recent once-off call in 2023 was heavily oversubscribed. This is a clear sign of capacity and appetite for growth. Supporting small-scale food producers through established and effective structures like LEADER aligns directly with Food Vision 2030. All of this speaks to what resilient communities look like, namely, connected, self-reliant and innovative, provided they are supported. That is the essence of local development. It is the guiding philosophy of programmes like LEADER, which we are working to strengthen post 2027. We recognise the economic challenges ahead but our message is simple - investment in communities and the resilience of communities is needed now more than ever.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank Mr. O'Donnell. We will now go to Ms Louise Lennon from Irish Rural Link.

Ms Louise Lennon:

I thank the committee for inviting us to present our pre-budget submission. Irish Rural Link represents more 600 community groups in disadvantaged and marginalised rural areas. We work to highlight the challenges facing these communities and we advocate for inclusive, sustainable rural development.

In the current context, many rural households continue to feel the impact of the cost-of-living crisis, especially with ongoing increases in the costs of food, fuel and essential services. Access to public transport remains extremely limited in many rural areas, leaving households dependent on private cars for work, education, health appointments and daily activities. For working families, this often means needing two cars, which significantly increases their cost of living. Even those households where both adults are working full time on minimum wage often struggle to meet a minimum essential standard of living. The annual minimum essential standard of living, MESL, report continues to highlight the income adequacies rural households face, due in large part to the dependency on a car and the high cost of transport associated with that and the lack of accessible services.

This is not just a social welfare issue; it is also a broader income adequacy and public service issue. Without sufficient investment in infrastructure like transport and social supports, rural people continue to be left behind. Long-term targeted investment in public services and infrastructure is vital for balanced regional growth. Without reliable public transport, affordable childcare, healthcare and education, rural communities will continue to be disadvantaged. Irish Rural Link became aware of just one example where the lack of transport is impacting on peoples lives. It involves an accommodation centre in a rural village where the limited transport prevents young children from accessing early years education and leaves the adults unable to reach employment and training or even just to be able to attend appointments or do a weekly shop. Some residents walk long distances along unlit roads to reach services. This is putting their safety at risk also.

The majority of Irish Rural Link's membership are working in the community or in community and voluntary organisations. The cost pressures, especially insurance and rising operational expenses, are threatening the viability of these services, such as meals on wheels, rural transport, community childcare, community education and other community, health and social services. Funding for these groups remains limited, short term and insecure. Many organisations receive only annual funding, making it extremely difficult to plan ahead or retain staff. Section 39 organisations in particular are struggling to compete with public sector wages.

Irish Rural Link co-ordinates the national meals on wheels network and providers are seeing significant increases in food and fuel costs. Budget 2025 did not go far enough. We are calling for €10 million in ring-fenced funding in budget 2026 and for the introduction of multi-annual core funding to help providers plan sustainably and avoid passing the costs on to vulnerable older people.

Some of our key asks for budget 2026 are that the budget be rural-proofed with a strong focus on regional equity. We want an increase in rural welfare rates to reflect the true cost of living for people in rural areas, along with investment in public services and rural infrastructure, including transport, digital inclusion and health and social care.

We are also looking for expanded and improved rural transport services, with demand-led models and sustainable vehicle options. We are also asking for multi-annual core funding to community and voluntary organisations delivering essential local services. Meals on wheels must be supported with ring-fenced funding and recognition of their role in healthcare and social care. Insurance barriers for voluntary groups should be reviewed to free up more resources for service delivery. We should strengthen and retain employment scheme participants by creating long-term, paid roles in community services.

Adequate incomes, investment in services and sustainable supports for the community and voluntary sector in budget 2026 are essential for the sustainability of rural communities. I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak.

Ms Grainne Fleming:

I am the co-ordinator for the Kildare Public Participation Network, PPN. I am joined by my colleague, Ms Siobhan Cronogue, from Longford PPN. I thank the committee members for the opportunity to speak to them on behalf of the Kildare PPN. I am grateful for the chance to present our pre-budget submission and to outline both our achievements and the serious challenges we face without sufficient and sustained investment.

Kildare PPN now represents 831 member organisations, collectively reaching nearly 83,000 people across the county. Since January alone, we have welcomed 149 new member groups, demonstrating the increasing appetite for civic participation and the rapid pace of population growth in our area. Kildare is now the fifth most populous local authority in Ireland, with over 247,000 residents according to the 2022 census, which is double the number in 1991. The figure is projected to exceed 266,000 by 2031. With this growth comes greater complexity, more diverse needs and higher expectations placed on our network to support and engage. Despite this, core funding for PPNs has remained largely flat since 2016. Inflation, which has risen by 18.5% since 2021, has driven significant cost increases across staffing, programme delivery, technology and venue hire, but the resources available to us have not kept pace.

In addition, our small team of only two staff members supports 22 representatives on decision-making committees within Kildare County Council, and more are expected under the new community safety partnerships. These are volunteer roles that require and deserve structured training, monitoring and sustained administrative support. Meeting that demand requires time, systems and personnel, none of which come free.

Staff capacity is a critical issue. Our team undertakes tasks in HR, event management, finance, reporting, communications, website management, policy development, social media, graphic design and more. This far exceeds the original scope of the PPN model. In line with recruitment benchmarks such as those recently applied in Fingal, we respectfully propose regrading PPN co-ordinators to grade 6, at a minimum, but preferably grade 7, and support workers to grade 5, at a minimum, and preferably grade 6. This would align us to colleagues in similar roles. Without such recognition, we risk staff burnout, turnover and a decline in network capacity.

We are also calling for a shift from the current annual funding cycle to a five-year funding model. The current approach breeds insecurity and hampers long-term planning. It also impacts staff’s ability to secure financial supports such as mortgages. A five-year model, already in place for other public grants, would provide the stability and accountability we need to meet the strategic goals outlined in the Kildare local economic and community plan, the Kildare climate action plan, the Kildare connected digital strategy and the Kildare integration strategy. Increased investment would allow us to deliver more targeted capacity-building supports for smaller and emerging groups, to improve our digital infrastructure to reach more rural and under-represented communities and to expand our support for community-led initiatives on climate action, youth engagement and social inclusion.

I want to raise a pressing concern with the Department’s financial controls document. The clause stating that statutory leave payments cannot be funded without offering alternatives creates legal and financial uncertainty for PPNs and host organisations. This is particularly problematic in areas such as maternity and sick leave, which are standard entitlements under Irish law.

More broadly, these issues are not unique to Kildare. Since their establishment under the Local Government Act 2014, PPNs across the country have grown substantially in scale, impact and responsibility. Yet, the funding model has remained outdated and insufficient. The role of PPN staff has evolved dramatically and the salary structures and support systems must evolve too. Our request is clear: that the funding and support structures for PPNs reflect the reality of our role in community development, participatory democracy and local governance.

We are extremely proud of what we have achieved to date but we are operating at full stretch. If PPNs are to remain the Department’s key vehicle for community engagement and policy input, we must be resourced accordingly. I thank committee members for their time and attention. We look forward to taking additional questions on funding.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank all the witnesses for their introductory remarks. I will invite members to discuss. I remind members participating remotely to use the raised hand feature and to cancel it when they have spoken. I call Senator Sarah O'Reilly.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The groups are all welcome and I thank them for their presentations. I will ask some questions about their submissions. I thank the witnesses for all the work they are doing in our communities. They are visible on the ground in my community.

I want to highlight LDCs and their budget cuts. In 2008, €84 million was available. That was reduced to €49 million for 2025. I know the LCDN is a national organisation, which is not true of some of the groups that come before the committee. It is visible in my county. What has been the impact of the budget cuts? Where do the witnesses see that impact on the ground in respect of the services they provide?

We hear that the cost-of-living supports in last year's budget will not be in this year's budget. Have those supports disguised the levels of poverty at the moment? Are cost-of-living supports required? Should more long-term supports be put in place?

I will touch on the community engagement schemes, Tús and the rural social scheme. Those are vital to our communities. I heard Mr. O'Donnell say that the LCDN is looking for a top-up or a raise in that regard. To allow people to go to work and put petrol in the car, especially in rural areas, I must support the LCDN fully. That is needed. If those groups of people were not in our rural communities, we would see the impact. When we lost the gateway scheme workers, we very much saw that.

Many local communities want to apply for funding through the LEADER programme. These are voluntary groups and the system is very bureaucratic. I have discussed this issue at the committee previously. Is there anything we can do to simplify the application process?

Irish Rural Link provides a lifeline for people, especially elderly people, in rural areas. We have a shopper service in two areas of east Cavan. They are excellent, but we need more. During Storm Éowyn, we had no meals on wheels in the east of the country. I had to buy and deliver food. We need more of that. I support the organisation's requests in that respect. I am sorry for going on, Chair.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Senator. Perhaps we can go to each organisation to respond. Would Mr. O'Donnell like to go first?

Mr. Philip O'Donnell:

Mr. Hyland might like to talk about SICAP and its impact.

Mr. Terry Hyland:

I thank the Senator for the questions. We are delighted to be here today and really appreciate the invitation. The Senator is right to say that SICAP is a very impactful programme. It is a national programme that is delivered in the heart of every disadvantaged community in the country. It has huge reach. Between 2018 and 2023, for example, we engaged with 131,000 individuals, over 6,000 community groups and 209,000 members of family groups. It was hugely impactful across that period but unfortunately, according to the survey on income and living conditions which was published in March of this year, the at risk of poverty rate, which is the percentage of people with less than 60% of the median disposable income level, increased from 10.6% in 2023 to 11.7% in 2024. Numbers-wise, that is 618,000 people. If the cost-of-living supports were pulled away, that figure would actually have been 14.1%. That tells us what the cost-of-living supports have been doing recently. In terms of consistent poverty, which combines low income with enforced deprivation, the figures rose from 3.6% in 2023 to 5% in 2024. Child poverty, which is a huge focus at the moment, was 15.3% in 2024 compared to 14.2% in 2023. Those indicators are important and hopefully they will inform decision-making at budget time.

Cost-of-living supports are important because they help to deal with immediate need whereas programmes like SICAP, as Mr. O'Donnell said in his opening statement, are about sustainable approaches to tackling poverty on the ground within communities and about social inclusion. SICAP employs community development workers who work as boots on the ground, hand-holding communities and individuals to come up with bespoke, tailor-made plans to deal with the issues they face within their households, whether that is progression towards the labour market, returning to education, dealing with transport issues or securing childcare. A tailor-made plan is built with our community development workers and we link in with local agencies and actors on the ground. We also provide wraparound supports within our own organisations to deal with those issues.

In terms of the LEADER programme and simplifying the application process, the Senator is right that because LEADER is funded by the EU, bureaucratic issues transfer across to the application process. We are advocating as a network and working with the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht at a European level to make the application process more simple for people to access. We want people to access the LEADER programme who may not necessarily have had the opportunity to apply for it previously. That is really important and we are pushing for that. We would love the opportunity to work with the committee on channelling that message to the relevant parties at EU level and within the Department. The Senator is correct that there is a body of work to be done on simplifying the application process.

In terms of the rural social scheme and the Tús initiative, the Senator is absolutely correct and in our pre-budget submission we advocate that people who participate in labour activation schemes such as community employment and Tús or social schemes like the RSS should not be at a financial loss. Currently, a lot of people are because in order to get to their scheme placement, they have to put diesel in the car and they have other expenses to get there. The current top-up rate of €27.50 on the payment does not cover it, unfortunately, and that is why we are advocating for that nominal increase of €7.50 per week in each year over the next three years to try to alleviate that. If we lost those schemes tomorrow, I fear what would happen to communities across Ireland.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I invite Ms Lennon to respond on behalf of Irish Rural Link.

Ms Louise Lennon:

On the cost-of-living measures, I agree with Mr. Hyland that they were very useful at the time. They did reduce the rate of poverty a bit but we need to start looking at long-term investment in social welfare payments and start lifting people out of poverty. The committee engaged with some of our colleagues from the community and voluntary pillar last week and they spoke about the minimum essential standard of living basket of goods. We would also recommend that social welfare payments be benchmarked against that basket of goods instead of the consumer price index, CPI, because it is more reflective of people on low income and their living standards. We are looking for an increase in core welfare rates but, as I mentioned in my opening statement, for people in rural areas long-term investment in transport and other services is also hugely important.

Meals on wheels was mentioned earlier and there are still lots of gaps in the provision of services. We have 308 providers involved in our network but 33% of them do not get any funding from the HSE. They are wholly voluntary or they try to get funding from elsewhere. Approximately 35% of providers are running a waiting list because they cannot meet the demand. I know that Mr. Hyland's organisation provides a lot of meals in Cavan. It filled the gap that was there, especially during Covid when it was set up. New services are being set up but it is very difficult for them to meet the demand. It is a national problem. It is not just a rural issue but is nationwide.

On the RSS and community employment schemes, a lot of the community services like community childcare and community education rely on those schemes to provide services. When someone finishes on a scheme it is very difficult to find a replacement, especially now when we are supposedly at full employment. Mr. O'Donnell mentioned the review of the RSS and the recommendations on extending it to rural dwellers through a pilot scheme. However, there does not seem to be any movement on any of those recommendations, another of which was allowing someone who has been on a community employment scheme for more than six years and who is aged over 50 to move on to the RSS to fill those gaps that are there.

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I welcome all of the speakers and greatly value the work they are doing on the ground. Coming from Longford, which is one of the most socioeconomically challenged communities in the country, I can attest to the work that is being done on the ground which is greatly appreciated. As a member of a Government party, it is disappointing to hear that issues with pay and security of tenure in relation to SICAP and the PPN have not been addressed. It is particularly disappointing as the witnesses are engaged in work that is meant to tackle socioeconomic challenges. It is disappointing and reflects poorly on us but I can assure our guests that we are making every effort to address matters in this budget.

Is Mr. O'Donnell concerned about the news from Europe today on funding for the Common Agricultural Policy? There are obvious implications for his organisation in that it is funded by Europe.

Mr. Philip O'Donnell:

Yes, we are deeply concerned and it is something we have been keeping a very close eye on. We have been trying to be as active as we can in that conversation in the last couple of months. We had been advocating for the retention of CAP Pillar 2 and for LEADER to be placed therein. LEADER has a very natural home in CAP Pillar 2 which is focused on rural development. We certainly have a concern that if LEADER was to exist elsewhere, it would be competing for resources and visibility with other types of funds. It also has some very specific protections within CAP Pillar 2. For example, a minimum of 5% of the overall CAP Pillar 2 envelope, which is funded through the European Agricultural Fund for Rural Development, is allocated to LEADER.

There would be a real concern, given long-term budgetary trends, around LEADER that this may be eroded going forward. Our position on it for the moment is that, in the first instance, we are waiting to see exactly what the proposals will look like, although reports this morning give us a pretty good sense of that. These are proposals at the moment and proposals only. There will be an important role for the Council, the member states, the Ministers and also for the Members of the European Parliament to have their say in these conversations. We are reassured by the perspectives we have heard across both of those European structures during the past couple of months as regards the retention of CAP pillars 1 and 2 and we will support them in their work in advocating for that.

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In regard to INTERREG funding, Mr. Hyland made a case for a €1 million amount in matching funding. Will he give an example of where INTERREG funding has been used anywhere in Ireland?

Mr. Terry Hyland:

A number of community and voluntary organisations can draw INTERREG funding down. For example, our counterpart in Donegal - the development company in Ballyhoura - has run a successful INTERREG programme. There are probably very few organisations that can-----

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

What did that programme do?

Mr. Terry Hyland:

I do not have the details to hand.

Mr. Philip O'Donnell:

Could I come in on that? I have been discussing this quite a lot with one of our member companies in County Kerry, South Kerry Development Partnership, which has been very active in this area. I believe it is currently delivering three INTERREG projects. Two are in the energy space, those being, community energy and the ownership of energy assets, and one is on peatland restoration. These programmes would typically be funded to the tune of €500,000 to €750,000 overall. That is the magnitude. The programmes would involve international partners, so they would not necessarily all be funded through, for example, South Kerry Development Partnership.

This is an anomaly and something we are quite keen to stress. For a community and voluntary organisation to tap into INTERREG funding, its funding model effectively needs to be clean of other European funds because European funds are not allowed to be matched with other European funds. It is okay if an organisation has trading income or access to income from the public purse but if an organisation is largely reliant on other European funds, which is the case for many community and voluntary sector organisations now, it is locked out of INTERREG. The figures involved are not very large. The Southern Regional Assembly did research on this, which I have shared with the Senator, and it estimated that the contribution of an Irish organisation to an INTERREG project would typically be in the region of €20,000 to €30,000, or a third of the overall project budget.

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am conscious of time. Would it be fair to say that the INTERREG fund mainly operates in the community energy sphere?

Mr. Philip O'Donnell:

It is broader than that. It would be around addressing-----

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In terms of the advantages for Ireland and opportunities for community energy, could we look to the Department of energy to fund that €1 million pot?

Mr. Philip O'Donnell:

The Department of rural and community development could potentially have an important role in this, because I would see it as being very targeted and supportive of civil society organisations.

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

If I still have time, I will come back to the Local Development Companies Network representatives. Irish Rural Link is doing fantastic work and we can see its growth. I visited Galway a couple of weekends ago and I could not believe it. Even in Longford, I see huge progress. People ring now and say they want more buses, which is great. We are coming to that time of year when people call to say they do not have school bus tickets. Does the Department of education ever meet Irish Rural Link to see if the routes could be co-ordinated to try to resolve any issues there are with school transport?

Ms Louise Lennon:

Just to clarify, we are not Local Link. Irish Rural Link advocates for more transport and would be very supportive of Local Link services. I am not sure if the Department of education has gone out directly to the individual Local Link services but I could ask someone to get in touch with the Senator, maybe Damien O'Neill from Longford-Westmeath.

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

During the lifetime of the previous Government, we did a piece of work on where we would go with school transport, but I have a sense we did not engage with a sufficient number of stakeholders when that was being done.

Ms Louise Lennon:

Yes, and Irish Rural Link would be very-----

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

For example, if a Local Link route was tweaked by ten minutes, it could resolve an issue and get children to school on time rather than them being ten minutes late. Small tweaks such as that can really make a huge change for us.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The time is up, so we sadly have to move on. Deputy O'Reilly is next.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Cathaoirleach and all of our witnesses for the overview and their pre-budget submissions, which are very interesting and comprehensive. In regard to multi-annual funding and keeping pace with public service wages, will the witnesses speak about the difficulties that presents? It strikes me that the organisations will lose staff to another sector. I do not just mean one that might be able to pay them more money. Even where there is equality of pay, staff in the organisations cannot get maternity or sick leave, their holidays covered or career progression offered to them because the organisations do not have multi-annual funding. Will the witnesses talk about the impact this has on staffing and if there is a value-for-money argument to be made for multi-annual funding? I believe there is one but I would be interested in hearing about it from each of our witnesses in terms of being able to make plans.

Mr. Philip O'Donnell:

Fundamentally, the question is how we see the future of the community and voluntary sector in Ireland and its importance. The Deputy is right in all she said. There are tremendous difficulties in attracting and retaining staff when there is such a clear disparity in pay and conditions between similar types of work in the community and voluntary sector and in the public service, for example. That is already becoming very real on the ground. I know representatives from The Wheel were present last week. The Wheel took a very systematic look at this issue and examined the pay disparities. For the community and voluntary sector to continue to deliver, it needs to have that capacity. Having multi-annual funding that is sufficient to pay at a grade commensurate with what is available in the public sector and elsewhere is very important.

Mr. Terry Hyland:

May I jump in there as well? As an employer who is multifunded, the terms and conditions are often set by various funders. There are disparities between them as well. We have staff within our own organisation who will have no pension entitlements until auto-enrolment comes in, yet there are people sitting beside them who do have pension entitlements. The problem with annual funding is that, when the Revised Estimates come out around December, we potentially have to put people on protective notice two weeks before Christmas because we cannot guarantee them contracts of employment in January.

The community and voluntary sector has become so professionalised in terms of the services delivered that staff are highly sought after by local authorities and the HSE due to their skill sets. Therefore, the community and voluntary sector is competing with the public sector for high-quality employees but cannot offer the same terms and conditions, or even salaries. Our offering is about 10% or 15% behind on salaries with no security of employment. These people have their own homes, lives and mortgages and we cannot be competitive. That puts us on the back foot. We look after the most vulnerable in society, so we need to make sure we have the right quality of people. Ms Lennon mentioned that in her opening statement.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Does Ms Fleming want to comment?

Ms Grainne Fleming:

I thank the Deputy for asking the question. This is a major problem, not just for the PPN in Kildare, but for PPNs throughout the country. We are hosted in a number of different ways. The way in which we have been set up left the decision in the hands of very capable volunteers at the time. Twenty-one PPNs are hosted by the local authorities and the rest are split between private CLGs and hosting by third parties within the community. As a result of this, their staff are all on different terms and conditions. As can well be imagined, this leads to major difficulties within the organisation as a whole. We have no entitlements to sick leave or maternity leave. We have no entitlement to incremental increases year on year.

We have no right to permanent contracts in many cases. Our staff were never really in a position to look for mortgages, never mind short-term personal loans. The attrition levels within PPNs are a major concern for us. What we do is quite complex. We are very passionate about what we do, but unfortunately a huge amount of expertise is walking out the door on us every day. That is something we have to address. At least if we look at changing the way in which we are funded to a long-term model, it gives some level of stability to the really good people we have in place who are very experienced in what they do. It would certainly go a long way towards addressing some of the challenges we encounter.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Let us take meals on wheels as an example and then consider the school meals provision programme for which multi-annual funding is available. The process is constructed in a way that only massive companies can tender. They do not pay their workers well unlike in the community and voluntary sector. A stream of funding and certainty is available to that sector for private businesses. I have previously asked this of the Minister. I believe there is scope for meals on wheels to get involved in that. This would give us real oversight on the quality of the food and the local element, as well as using the considerable resources of the State to drive decent wages. That needs to be considered.

The witnesses referred to the SILC data, which contain a variety of one-off cost-of-living measures. Thanks to the media and leaks from the Cabinet, we know that there are people who sit at the Cabinet table who believe the cost-of-living crisis is over. I would be interested to know if that is the witnesses' view or the view of the people they support. Obviously, the one-off measures were important but in terms of the cost-of-living crisis, I do not believe it is over and my constituents say it is not-----

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy should ask a question because we are running out of time.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will indeed. The Government has signalled that there will not be any one-off measures. What will the impact of that be on the people the witnesses represent?

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We will move on to Deputy McGuinness.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am very grateful for the very comprehensive submission that Irish Rural Link provided. I am really interested in the concept of rural proofing, which should be done for all Government policy and funding decisions. Would Irish Rural Link like the Government to start rural proofing, both for the budget we are talking about here and in general?

I have major concerns about how housing policy is failing rural communities and how rural communities are being hollowed out. The national planning framework's objective to push people into cities and larger urban areas is adding to demand for housing in those areas while removing people from the areas they grew up in and where they would like to rear their children.

I note that Irish Rural Link referenced capital funding for transport. I always tell the story of the senior roads engineer in my county of Waterford when I was a councillor. He was tearing his hair out when we came to the roads programme every January saying that the roads needed to be resurfaced or maintained every 20 years and that, with the budget allocation he was being given by the Department, it would be every 40 years at best.

That is the context. I would like to hear from the witnesses how the Government might put rural proofing in place.

Ms Louise Lennon:

I thank the Deputy for his questions. I know the Department of rural and community development ran a pilot on this, engaging other Departments. There has been no update from that and it would be good to get an update.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

What methodology would Irish Rural Link recommend to the Government so that might work?

Ms Louise Lennon:

Each Department needs to be involved and it needs to be cross-departmental. They need to look at how their policies would impact. In healthcare, for example, the lack of access to GPs is a real problem, given the retirement of GPs in rural areas. Even when GPs reach the age of 66, it has an impact because they may no longer see medical card patients. There is an impact on a rural community with no GP or where a GP can only see private patients. There is the impact of no public transport as I indicated in my opening statement and the accommodation centre not having access to transport. It goes back to Senator Flaherty's comment that extending it by ten minutes could solve that issue. People have been excluded from society and excluded from reaching employment, education and hospital appointments. Each Department should be required to look at what the impacts are.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We will take the two remaining speakers and then have final comments from our witnesses.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I asked a question about cost-of-living measures and I would appreciate an answer to that.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We can get the answer to that as well.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I welcome all the representatives today. For a long time, I have been involved in local community work, working with the local LEADER company in Longford, Longford Community Resources Limited. I have been involved in numerous applications and I know the tedious paperwork associated with it. It is that way for a reason - to ensure it is done right and there are no issues when it comes to the project being done and any money being claimed back. It has done a massive amount of work in my community over the last two programmes. We have one of the highest percentages of funding in the county and all that money has been well spent in every community in our county.

I do see what the witnesses have said. A number of the staff are now staff members in Longford County Council. They have worked hard in Longford Community Resources, trained up and worked with communities. Needless to say, Longford County Council can see the benefit of having staff members like that. They have moved on to get more benefits for themselves, security of employment and pension rights. I would be fully supportive of that entitlement being there for staff members of Longford Community Resources as well as other bodies across the country.

I have a question slightly away from Longford Community Resources but it is an issue where community organisations struggle with funding. The Western Development Commission is able to provide low-cost matching grant funding for projects, including LEADER projects. Should that be established across the country?

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We will go on to the answers now.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I have another question.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I ask the Deputy to be brief.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I apologise; I did not think I would be limited on time. I welcome, in particular, Ms Cronogue from Longford. I have worked closely with her for many years. County Longford PPN does fantastic work. We have the highest percentage of organisations in the country registered with the local PPN. We had an event here in September of last year where Ms Cronogue came to Leinster House and explained to members the issues that were there and the need for more funding to be put in place for security of employment for staff. I ask her to outline how the PPN has benefited our community in Longford. What challenges is the PPN facing? What funding is needed to resolve these issues? I believe that any funding provided is money well spent in my community.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the panel for their opening statements. I can only speak for myself, but when it comes to rural development and making a case to this committee, the witnesses are pushing an open door. In my previous role as a councillor, I was chair of Galway Rural Development, and we were all the time preaching and shouting about the lack of funding. I will always reference this, for what it is worth, because the funding model is something I take issue with. I am not suggesting for one second that I should be naming counties, but I will draw a comparison if that is okay. County Roscommon gets €97 LEADER funding per person. It is €76 in County Offaly, €64 in County Mayo and €53 in County Clare. Galway east gets €37 per person. As previous speakers have referenced, I see every day of the week the outstanding work going on in communities from that small investment and the wonderful rewards reaped as a consequence.

The witnesses referenced the local development companies. Their submission highlighted the success of the new arrivals fund. Would they anticipate or support its full integration into SICAP?

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Deputy. Unfortunately for the other Deputies and Senators, we have run out of time.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Are you not going to allow me in at all now-----

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Unfortunately, not.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

-----after sitting here the whole length?

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am sorry, Deputy. I said there was another committee meeting at 12.30 p.m., and we have to vacate and be out.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I think the Chair should start a rule. I came here to this meeting this morning. I left my house at 7.05 a.m.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is fine.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I think I am entitled to talk at the meeting. I am just saying that the Chair should be able to judge and allocate time, whether it is four minutes each or whatever.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The witnesses will be around afterwards, Deputy.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is not right. In fairness, I was here hours before Deputy Carrigy and they will not allow me to speak.

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputy Aird was here.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I think it is unfair.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am chairing. I really apologise.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There is no point coming to the meetings then.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We have three witnesses here, and we are doing our best to accommodate them. They will be around after the discussion.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is up to the Chair to allow every person in.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Absolutely, Deputy Aird, and I do so as best I can. I ask the three witnesses now-----

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Well, it is not good enough when you do not get in.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

-----to give just a roundup of one minute.

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Sorry, Chair, just before they come in-----

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am sorry, Senator. I am the Chair, so a bit of respect.

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Sorry, Chair.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will Mr. O'Donnell give a one minute roundup please?

Mr. Philip O'Donnell:

I will leave the question of one-off welfare measures to some of my colleagues in the interests of the time we have left. In respect of the possibility of the Western Development Commission as an example of providing match-funding, I say "Yes" in principle. However, we have a concern about catchment and the Western Development Commission's remit is in that part of the country to ensure there is equitability of access.

On the broader point about access to things like LEADER funding, we have a concern about the movement towards larger organisations tapping into it and the difficulty smaller organisations have because of the bureaucracy and difficulty of applying for LEADER funding.

On the new arrivals fund and the potential roll into SICAP, the answer is "Yes" on the basis that it does not come at the expense of funding that is already there for SICAP or what SICAP as a core programme actually needs.

Ms Louise Lennon:

On the impact of the cost-of-living measures, the cost-of-living crisis is not over. We see that especially for essential food items with the people we represent. The meals on wheels services are feeling the impact of that too. As I mentioned, we need to start investing in social welfare and providing adequate income for people on low incomes. The one-off measures did not bring up the consistent poverty rate. There would have been a slight increase had they not been there, but we need to start focusing on lifting people out of poverty.

Ms Siobhan Cronogue:

I thank Deputy Carrigy for the question. I will start with the challenges. I am speaking on behalf of the 31 PPNs today. We are looking for an increase of €2.5 million. That is to support the proper regrading of staff. Our support workers are on unstable one-year temporary contracts. The co-ordinators were piloted ten years ago at grade five and although the remit, role and responsibility have grown substantially, the grade has not changed. I will give an example. We started with approximately 300 community groups and the anticipated membership for this year is 24,000 groups. We have more than 1,000 reps on 418 decision-making committees, both within and outside the local authority.

On the benefits Longford PPN has given the county, the social value of Longford PPN and the efforts of our community groups is estimated at approximately €62 million, and that is a conservative figure. However, if we multiply it by 31, then PPNs around the country are saving the Government just under €2 billion. It is a small ask to stabilise PPNs and retain staff.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank Ms Cronogue and the local development companies network, Irish Rural Link and the Kildare Public Participation Network for their contributions today and providing the various briefing materials in advance of the meeting. Following both sets of hearings I propose the committee send a letter to the Minister enclosing the meetings' transcripts for review as part of the budgetary process. Is that agreed? Agreed.