Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Tá fír fáilte romhaibh go dtí an cruinniú choiste seo. Before we begin, I point out that members have the option to be physically present in the committee room or may join the meeting via Microsoft Teams from their Leinster House offices. Members may not participate in the meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts. However, it is important to note that to participate in a division, or vote, committee members must be physically present in the committee room. I do not believe any members are joining the meeting via Microsoft Teams but if they do, I ask that they please mute their microphones. If they use the raise hand function to indicate, it will be brought to my attention.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name, or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

This meeting has been convened to consider the Revised Estimates for Public Services 2025, Vote 29 - Climate, Energy and the Environment: programme C10, marine spatial planning; C11, the Marine Area Regulatory Authority, MARA; and Vote 30 - Agriculture, Food and the Marine: programme D, seafood sector.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit, an Teachta Timmy Dooley, who is Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and at the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment. From the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, he is accompanied by Ms Sinéad McSherry, assistant secretary general, and Ms Siobhán Dowling, principal officer. From the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment, we have in attendance Mr. Jim Whelan, principal officer, and Mr. Joe Gallagher, assistant principal officer. The officials are all very welcome to the meeting.

I remind members that, while the Minister of State may call on his officials to speak briefly for clarification purposes during the meeting where a specific or technical point arises, the Minister of State is the witness, whereas the officials are not. The officials can clarify issues for the committee but any follow-up questions from members should be put to the Minister of State directly as he is the accountable person before the committee.

The Minister of State's opening statements have been forwarded to members. As the time for discussion is limited, I will allow him five minutes because there are two opening statements, giving a synopsis of the two Revised Estimates. We will proceed to the question-and-answer session immediately thereafter.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chairman. I know the committee has received the documentation. Before I commence, I highlight the importance of the seafood sector, which I think the committee is well aware of and the positive impact it has on coastal communities. Our seafood sector consists of approximately 2,000 fishing vessels and aquaculture sites and supports more than 16,000 direct and indirect jobs in the coastal communities. The sector is essential to these coastal communities. From my perspective, it is a sector I want to work with, grow and develop to the best of our collective abilities over the coming years. The committee will be familiar with the programme for Government and the commitments set out therein. While today might not be the appropriate time to discuss those, I am available to the committee to engage on them over time. I want to work with the committee in that regard.

The Revised Estimates are a particular process we must go through every year. I had the opportunity to sit on the other side of the fence on numerous occasions to discuss them. For 2025, the total Exchequer contribution to the Vote of my Department amounts to €2.14 billion. That is the entirety of the quantum of money available to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. It comprises about €1.8 billion in current expenditure and €336.6 million in capital expenditure. When all of the appropriations-in-aid are considered, the 2025 net Vote is estimated to be €1.73 billion.

Concentrating on Vote 30, programme D, which is the area I have responsibility for, amounts to €177 million, comprised of €116 million in current expenditure and €61 million in capital expenditure. The 2025 Vote provides the Department with the resources both to address the many challenges the seafood sector faces, as well as the ability to deliver on the opportunities that exist across the sector. To support that ambition, the €177 million allocated to programme D will continue to support the fisheries, aquaculture and seafood sectors. I can go into the detail, if necessary, but it is contained in the note provided. That is important in terms of the overall elements that will be supported through that. The committee has a copy of the brief.

I now turn to the area covered under the Department of Climate, Energy and Environment. That is set out at programmes C10 and C11. In the Revised Estimate for the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment, there are two subheads in programme C. The Revised Estimate was required due to the recent transfer of the communications and cybersecurity functions from the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment to the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport, and the Department of justice.

The total gross Estimate for the Department this year is €979 million and €973.2 million net. This amount comprises just under €211 million in current expenditure and just over €768 million in capital funding. The 2025 Estimate represents a 45% decrease on last year’s allocation. However, when taking account of the €520 million allocation in 2024 for the electricity credit scheme and the transfer of the communications functions, the 2025 Estimate represents a 21% increase on last year’s Estimate for the Department. When comparing the two Votes, it appears there has been a considerable drop in money but it is due to functions being changed and removed. It is not, therefore, the case that the Department has lost money.

On the two subheads specifically, under the circular economy section, subhead C10 is the marine spatial planning programme. Although there is no increase on last year's allocation, €2.2 million is being provided for the ongoing implementation of the marine spatial planning programme. We spoke about this briefly before but there is an adequate sum of money to assist us in developing the national designated maritime area plan, or DMAP. That is very much in its early stages but I am confident we have the appropriate amount of resources in place.

MARA will have a 31% increase in its allocation, bringing it to €10.2 million. That is in line with the agency's gradual development since its inception under which it will take on additional resources in line with commitments given at that time.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh míle maith agat a Aire Stáit. We will open the floor to questions and answers. Deputy Maxwell is first and he will have ten minutes, to include answers.

David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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We received the Minister of State's briefing note at 4.30 p.m. I am just reading it.

To be clear-----

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for that.

David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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There is no problem.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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My understanding is that one element from the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment may not have been sent with the rest of the opening statement. My understanding was that the information had been provided previously, but some of it was not. I apologise for that.

David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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No problem.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It was an oversight.

David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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The electricity credit scheme function has been transferred to another Department, so that has reduced the allocation. On the money we have left in 2025, we are now halfway through the year. Has the uptake, with regard to the balance of money available, been good? By the end of 2025, will the full allocation for the fisheries sector have been spent, as opposed to money being handed back to the Exchequer? As a member of a local authority previously, the bane of my life was money being handed back at the end of the year or hearing stories of an underspend in a particular sector. As we know, the fisheries sector is under pressure. I would not like to think that at the end of the year any money will have to be returned to the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation or the Minister because we had not spent it in the fisheries and maritime sector.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Maxwell. I assure him that since taking office, ensuring money does not go back has been on my mind. I have been assured, and information has been provided to me, that we always spend our money on the fisheries side. We are using that fact to argue for additional funds. In all elements within that overall Department, we have projects and planning permissions in place. We have all of that in advance. We have a good track record on spending the money. I have every confidence that we will not be sending money back.

What I am more concerned about is that we could spend more if we had it. In previous years, there was a possibility of getting additional resources towards the end of the year, but I am well warned by the senior Minister, Department officials and the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation that we will not be getting additional resources towards the end of the year, as we might have expected in previous years. I assure the Deputy that we will have the money spent, barring some unforeseen circumstance. I always have to include that caveat.

David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State can only give the information he has at hand.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am going to use the opportunity of the Minister of State’s presence to raise an issue that partly arises from his comments in the circulars sent to us earlier this evening and partly from an issue on which we had a presentation earlier. Wind Energy Ireland was among the parties that presented to us this morning. Everyone recognises there is significant opportunity for the country and that we have not done sufficient work to harness the natural resources available to us through the development of offshore wind farms. We are being advised consistently that this is something that will create jobs, generate economic activity and offset our reliance on non-renewable energies.

One of the things we were advised of at the presentation, which will probably not be news to the Minister of State but certainly was to me, was that we currently only have one port on the island that can facilitate the development of offshore wind energy and that is Belfast Port. While the presentation mentioned the opportunity that exists in Cork and the work that could be done on that, that leaves out a significant area of our western coast. We all look at these things parochially. It is going to be difficult to avail of the opportunity for those coastal areas to assist with the development of offshore wind energy. I am talking particularly of the work of MARA and the difficulties there is in trying to progress this industry.

We have a national development plan coming up. Where in the national development plan can we see the potential to remedy that and ensure we build and have sufficient port infrastructure to facilitate the development, maintenance and management of offshore wind energy all over the country, particularly on the western seaboard?

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Connolly. I know of his personal interest in this matter, particularly when it comes to Ros an Mhíl and the works programme that was under way there. As he knows, a court case has delayed development at Ros an Mhíl. It is the intention of the Department to continue with that development. The Deputy will be aware of that. While our responsibility is to the fishing sector, there is no doubt that when that development is completed – and I am confident it will obtain planning permission and that we are going through the appropriate process – it will provide some benefit and potential to access offshore renewable projects. From my perspective and that of the Department, we want to drive ahead with that project.

Deputy Connolly talked about the wider issue of port infrastructure and where we are at in that regard. I am conscious that Cork Port has a significant investment programme under way, with the support of the European Investment Bank. Cork Port will be in a position to provide the appropriate access to the Tonn Nua site, which is the next wave of offshore development we see coming on board, as well as to other stage 1 projects already identified, mainly on the east coast. Cork Port has particular capacity which will provide that. Belfast Port might be suitable for some of the other sites on the east and north-east coast. They are more developer-led projects.

As we have begun work on the national DMAP, we will need other port infrastructure. I am confident that Ros an Mhíl will form part of that in due course. I also see huge potential for Shannon Foynes Port. Together with the ESB, there is a significant programme of investment in the deep-sea port at Moneypoint which heretofore was used to bring coal to the electricity station there. Just three weeks ago, the ESB finished burning coal, which was a positive development. Short term, it will burn heavy oil as it transitions completely from fossil fuels. Moneypoint Power Station has been taken out of the market so it is just an electricity generator of last resort now, to be used in extreme circumstances. The ESB has a significant plan to develop that site around the whole green energy potential. Harnessing electricity off the western seaboard, including floating offshore wind technology, is where it is looking to.

To address the Deputy’s specific point, development at Cork Port is under way. There is a significant plan in that regard. The new chief executive there has an ambitious plan and intends to drive the activity through the port to support the potential that is coming. I have met with the people at Shannon Foynes Port on many occasions. They have a strong plan to develop. A rail line is also being constructed into the national rail network from Foynes, which is positive. The money is going into the infrastructure.

With regard to the caveat to the national development plan, that is going to be a challenge for the Department. We are trying to ensure we get our fair share of the pie, as it were, to ensure that critical infrastructure that is important for the future economic growth and development of our economy is obtained. If you look to what the Government’s key priorities are around the national development plan, they are about housing and the electricity grid. If you want to improve the electricity grid and capture energy offshore, then it follows that the port infrastructure must be there too.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The only point I was going to add to the Minister of State’s last point is the need for balanced regional development. If we are saying that any development for offshore wind off the western coast can only be serviced by either Cork or Belfast, that is going to impact on balanced regional development.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious of that. We must look to the next wave of marine planning, which is the national DMAP. In my view, it will start to look at the other opportunities around the island of Ireland. What I want to see emerge from that is a number of sites located along the western seaboard. I want it to look at all the opportunities rather than what was initially done in the proposal, where, having done the south east, it moved on to look at the south west and would then gradually make its way around.

We will look at a whole series of sites to give the State, potential investors and contractors a more long-term view of where the opportunities are, not only to 2030 but to 2040, 2050 and beyond. By 2040, we expect to have 20 GW captured in wind off our shores. We are looking to have 5 GW by 2030, although it will probably go a little bit beyond 2030. Between then and 2040, there will be an additional 15 GW. This will open up significant opportunities, and we will have to have port infrastructure in place. By then, I would like to see Foynes and Rossaveel ports in place. They can both serve. I am sure when we get to my good friend Deputy Gallagher, he will no doubt find something to put through Killybegs in some shape or form. There are opportunities, and I am sure we will be trying to ensure that we harness all of the opportunities that are there in terms of wind energy. Of course, it follows that we have to have port infrastructure as well.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of the categorisation of ports, do we see the potential inclusion of the ability of a port to service offshore wind energy? Is this something that could be included in the categorisation of a port? At present, it is simply tonnage. If a port can facilitate some of the measurements the Minister of State is speaking about in terms of wind energy, could we upgrade a port based on its ability to do this?

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We have to look at state aid rules also because there are issues in terms of competition. The State owns certain ports. Ports will come forward with their own proposals and plans, and these are starting to emerge. Not every port will be able to do all of the activities. Repair and maintenance will be done from some ports. We will be looking at the bigger ports to do the initial work, such as putting the heavy technologies in place. These include the wind turbines that are associated with it. In some cases, we will see wind turbines constructed in close proximity to these ports. They will be floated and taken into position. Other ports will provide ongoing care and maintenance facilities. There are a number of smaller harbours that will be able to facilitate this. I am hopeful there will be opportunities for everybody, and for most of the medium-sized ports.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I have questions on several matters. What is gone is gone, but with regard to the Minister of State's plans for the upcoming budget, we had the incoming chairs of the Marine Institute and the Aquaculture Licences Appeals Board before us in recent weeks and we raised the issue of increased resources. We cannot say enough that the population of the Faroe Islands is approximately 58,000, which is not too much bigger than the Inishowen Peninsula where I am from, and the aquaculture industry of the Faroe Islands is bigger than that of Ireland. We have not built an aquaculture industry and we have not created jobs or wealth in our coastal communities.

When I asked the industry, I was told some of the big issues were the ongoing delays and not making reasonably timed decisions on licences. People cannot really invest in the industry. The Marine Institute is clearly burdened with appropriate assessments, which take far too long. It is not a simple process, and I accept this, but it takes the institute a very long time. Similarly, the Aquaculture Licences Appeals Board does not appear to have the resources it requires to make decisions in a speedy timeframe. I want to get a sense of this and I ask the Minister of State to note it. What can we do to engage with these bodies? People have a right to object but decisions must be made in a reasonable timeframe so the industry can have a timeline for how long it can expect them to take. We cannot build an industry if we cannot have some degree of clarity on licensing. I ask the Minister of State to respond to this and I will follow with my next questions.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The delays in processing and addressing new licences and renewals of licences are issues and this is an area I have had particular concerns about since taking on this role, with regard to my engagement with the industry generally. Deputy Mac Lochlainn is right that there is a resource issue. There is also an issue of allocation of resources. Internally, we have begun a process of looking at the entire system. I had a brief conversation with the chair designate of the Marine Institute in recent times. I intend to meet him soon, after he has had an opportunity to engage fully with the executive there. I am very conscious of the issue.

I am conscious of the level of output we were able to get from a stock such as farmed salmon. We went from 27,000 tonnes or 28,000 tonnes to approximately 8,000 tonnes. When I saw those figures, I thought they were stark. We recognise the challenges we face with the fishing industry and quota for a multiplicity of reasons, yet we are unable to increase what should be an opportunity for several reasons. If there are fish farms, then people would work on them, which would help coastal communities, notwithstanding the larger challenges involved. There is also the processing sector, which is very much dependent on fish to employ people and generate economic activity. Deputy Mac Lochlainn knows this business better than most of us. He knows the challenges the processing sector is facing in terms of the importation of fish, not only from the Faroe Islands and Norway, but from Vietnam and elsewhere. This is something we should be looking at.

Recently, when I attended the Our Ocean Conference in South Korea, I took the opportunity to visit an on-land aquaculture facility. It is not commercially viable in terms of the cost of energy but it is starting a process to look at how we might learn more from it. Perhaps we could move into this in time. It would address some of the environmental impacts that fish farming has.

The aquaculture industry is something I am very active on and concerned about. It is something we want to progress. I am conscious that it is about resources. I sat on the other side and often put a Minister to task about getting more resources. Sometimes, it is about how resources are allocated. We are looking at this. I am also conscious that, as we face into the Estimates, it will be a challenge to get additional moneys next year, for all of the reasons that have been outlined today and in recent days. This is a priority for us. It is set out in the programme for Government. It would help to address some of the issues that are resulting from the decline in fishing stocks as we aim to rejuvenate these stocks.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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As the Minister of State knows, there will continue to be a demand for fish. It is a crucial form of food for the world. When we appear to be getting squeezed on quota, we need to look at every avenue to create wealth in coastal communities. I will leave it at that because we have had good engagement on it.

The Minister of State has spoken about investment in harbours and fishery harbour centres. The coastal infrastructure development fund is obviously under the direction of the Minister of State and local authorities. Through the Brexit adjustment reserve fund, some money was invested in harbours around the State. I know the Government is speaking about capital investment and it is nervous about current expenditure. Capital expenditure is the direction of travel. I want to get a sense of where investment in piers and harbours fits into this. As we are okay for time, I ask the Minister of State to respond to this.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Mac Lochlainn is right to identify that the Brexit adjustment reserve fund provided the Department with significant funds to invest in key infrastructure. I have had the opportunity to visit a number of the projects. I have to say that, in my estimation, it is money well spent. Most of the projects came in on budget and on time, and they provide for the future demands and needs of the facilities. I was in Killybegs recently and there was some investment there.

Of course, the harbourmaster was at pains to say he could do considerably more and it would be on schedule if funds were available. At this stage, though, I cannot say how we will do overall in that regard. I think we will be under a little pressure on the capital side for the next couple of years. A number of projects have the benefit of planning permission and are ready to go or close enough to being ready to go. I will be trying to prioritise those if I can. I am conscious that, if planning permission lapses, it can be a hell of a job to get it back on track. There is the project in Rossaveel that was delayed through court actions. Fortunately, we have had the forbearance of the contractor, who has been very understanding and has assisted us in addressing some of the issues.

I had an opportunity to visit Howth to view a project there. The significant sedimentation issue is making it very difficult to get the fishing boats in and out. It also affects the leisure craft that form an important part of the tourism offering there. Tourism falls outside my remit but if the fishing boats cannot get out, that is a big priority. There is a symbiotic relationship between the two and if we can get that resolved, we will get to that. There is also an issue for RNLI vessels. From a search and rescue perspective, it is important that we get that done.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I have one last question. I think we will have another round, will we?

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I doubt if we will.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I will deal with this quickly. Many European Union member states introduced a fuel support scheme. I engaged repeatedly with the former Minister, Deputy McConalogue, but he did not go for it. When the Minister of State is engaging with the fishing representative organisations, are they still asking for this? My understanding is that those in the inshore sector particularly are. The figure would be 20 cent of fuel aid per litre. It has been a really big hit for a sector that is under pressure. I want to get a sense of the Minister of State's thoughts on that.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That issue comes up every now and again. As the Deputy will know, fuel prices have oscillated quite a bit. They were much higher and then dropped. Issues, particularly in the Middle East, have created another spike and it is starting to retract. As I said the last time I appeared before the committee, the Department has asked Kieran Mulvey to reach out to all elements of the sector to try to put together for us a list of issues that we might be able to address in the short, medium and long terms. Mr. Mulvey has just started that work. I hope that some short-term items, which can be costed and looked at, will come from that work. In that context, we might look at such a scheme. However, there is a cost to it and I do not want to give the Deputy any false hope. It is certainly an issue that is on the radar.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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My first issue for him relates to staffing of the Marine Institute. We had this discussion when the chair designate and the chief executive appeared before the committee recently. As the Minister of State will be aware, I used to work with the Marine Institute maybe 20 years ago and at the time-----

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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They still speak highly of the Deputy.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I would say they have all moved on now. One of the issues I had back then, as did many of the staff, was that we were all on short-term contracts. It was very much dependent of EU funding. It was a very stressful and precarious position for anyone to be in. I had hoped that would have all changed. Apparently, it has not and there are still a significant number of staff who are on short-term contracts or temporary contracts associated with certain funding streams. I think it is a false economy, particularly when the nature of the work the Marine Institute has been tasked with has changed over the years and its importance has grown. The Marine Institute is doing permanent work in certain sectors but this is not being recognised through what is still precarious funding. Apparently, 11 staff members had their positions terminated this year because the service-level agreement could not be renewed in time. A few months later, many of them were re-employed. That is no way to treat staff and it is also not good for the research and services provided by the Marine Institute. Is the Minister of State looking at this area? There is an important gap that needs to be filled.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We have had the conversation about the Deputy's interest in the Marine Institute previously. Based on the figures I have, at the end of May 2025, the total headcount in the Marine Institute was 273, which was an increase of four on April 2025. One hundred and sixty-five were core Exchequer funded and 108 were temporary externally funded, a 60:40 split between permanent and temporary. A very significant budget comes from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine of about €45 million. There is some project money that comes from the Department of about €3.6 million. Approximately €3 million is also provided under the water framework directive in the marine environment. Some €4.5 million also comes from the marine planning offshore renewable energy side of it. This is just the way the work programme has developed there over time. I am happy to look at it and I will engage with the chairman but I do not want to make any false promises.

When it comes to looking at it in the round, the primary purpose of the Marine Institute is to provide information to the Department of food and the marine on fishing stocks and all of that. There is wonderful expertise there. It is a very well-run organisation. It is very highly thought of throughout Europe and beyond. It would be remiss of me at this stage to indicate that I could go beyond where we are at. We need to recognise that we are going into a round of Estimates that will be challenging. The Government has established this new role, which I happen to occupy for the time being. Its purpose is to bring some coherence to the fisheries and marine sector and to attempt to put together that virtual department. I am still conscious that the Departments have their own funding regimes. I am happy to look at it and engage with the chairman of the board and the executive.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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That is really welcome. The Minister of State's looking at it is an important step. The EPA provides a similar function where it deals with a number of different agencies. However, my understanding is that it has more permanent funding and resources and the situation there is not as precarious. That might provide a good model to-----

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Some of this emerged over time whereby there was the core objective and then, as other opportunities came, pieces were plugged into the Marine Institute, which has the skill set, base, overhead and infrastructure. I would be happy to engage with the chairman to see how we might plan to address this in future. However, I do not want to give the impression it will resolve the immediate issue the Deputy has raised.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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That is great. I thank the Minister of State.

Next is a small but important thing. As I mentioned at that meeting, when the Marine Institute moved to the west coast, I think it left a gap on the east coast for marine education services. The Marine Institute has excellent outreach programmes with schools but I think it could do a lot more on the east coast. For example, the Bray aquarium is due to reopen in August thanks to Dr. Kevin Flannery and a local businessman. The premise is that it will be an educational facility. It was looking for grants and some State support and help to get it up and running. Unfortunately, there was nothing available. I would love to see more moves towards supporting a facility like that, which could be a core educational facility, even just to get it over the initial step, because I believe there is a gap on the east coast.

We had a meeting this morning with Wind Energy Ireland, MARA and Captain Robert McCabe.

I was quite shocked to learn, although there have been signs for quite some time, that we will have no offshore wind energy produced in Ireland by 2030. We had the Arklow Bank project but it is being decommissioned. The turbines are being taken down at the moment. We did have some wind energy generation off Arklow, and that started 20 years ago. Not only are we not going to have any generation by 2030 but we are also going backwards. I was really shocked to learn that. It is expected that we will have offshore wind energy generation by 2031 or 2032, but, again, it all depends on everything falling into place. I wanted to say that to the Minister of State because I had never thought about it in that way. It is really concerning that we will have no offshore wind energy generation at all by 2030. It obviously potentially could have impacts in the form of fines and the need to purchase emissions credits from the EU, amounting to €26 billion potentially. It will be really important to ensure any challenges or barriers are addressed so we can expedite the delivery of wind energy generation as quickly as possible. We really cannot afford not to meet the target and not to keep the industry going. We cannot let it fail and have all potential investors move elsewhere.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has identified the key aspect, which is the notion of a longer-term roadmap to provide certainty to the industry, including investors and those developing. When I entered my role, I was conscious that we needed to put a more long-term plan in place with respect to development potential, and that is why we have pivoted away from the idea of an iterative process - beginning with the south east and moving to the south west and regions all the way up along the coast in blocks - to the consideration of an entire zone where suitable sites would be identified for offshore wind capture. This will mean that those who will bid for the Tonn Nua site – there will be winners and losers – will know there will be another option available relatively quickly thereafter and that the period will be up to 2050, which is what we are all aiming for. That will provide some certainty.

I am conscious that the work done by the Department on the marine planning site has stood the test of time in terms of the first DMAP. In this regard there will be an auction for the Tonn Nua site in the marketplace later this year. The careful work on this has meant there has been no judicial review. The Deputy will know that it is currently pretty difficult to get something through without a judicial review. We are confident that we now have a model that is scalable. I am conscious of what the Deputy said about there being a point in time when there will be no offshore wind energy generation. While she is correct, it is a bit like an opinion poll in that it reflects a snapshot in time. I am hopeful and the Government believes it is just a case of a short period after which we will have both the plan-led and developer-led projects – the phase 1 projects – coming on board. Some of these are no longer happening, as the Deputy knows. At the Sceirde Rocks site, there were going to be issues. Potentially, we will have a lot of issues anyway. The Sceirde Rocks developers have decided not to proceed, and that reduces the quantum of electricity we might have hoped to see coming on board. However, I am confident that as we have pivoted from developer-led projects to plan-led projects, the State is more in control of where it is going in terms of getting permissions and plans in place and then getting out of the way of the developers. It is about putting in place the appropriate auction mechanism and contract for difference, which continues to be an important aspect. I am conscious that several countries, in the belief that offshore wind energy generation was commercially viable without the support of the state-----

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Minister of State to wrap up so we can hear from Deputy Gallagher.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We can follow up on it again.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I am pleased the Minister of State is here, hopefully with delegated authority, regardless of whether it relates to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

Today, the joint committee spoke to representatives from Wind Energy Ireland. It was an education for us. I was astounded to learn that there will be no wind energy generated at sea. When I was in the Minister of State’s position many years ago, I was involved when Arklow got approval, but now the Arklow site is being decommissioned. There are no sites on the west coast, where the wind speeds are the highest in Europe. I do not believe we have the infrastructure required to establish wind energy generation off the west coast. It is not something that can be achieved overnight but we should be examining it. I hope Killybegs will be considered. Killybegs is being used to bring in the turbines but I am referring to something much greater than that.

When I came in today, before I looked at the documentation, I took it that we would be dealing only with the Department of the marine, but I see that we are not and are instead dealing also with the Department for Climate, Energy and the Environment. If we were to home in on what we are doing, we would see we are dealing just with marine spatial planning and MARA. Maybe we could have an explanation as to what this is all about. Might the Minister of State be coming in again with his Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine hat on to deal with this? Can we expect that there will be Revised Estimates for the core Department, that is, the Department responsible for the marine?

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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In clarifying, I will address the Deputy’s first point first. We addressed the element that resides within the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine at the beginning of the meeting. There was a communication from both Departments. I will be happy to revert to the matter relating to the Department responsible for the marine if the Deputy wants. The two sides are addressed.

The Deputy addressed the same issue as Deputy Whitmore and had a specific interest in the western seaboard. Deputy Whitmore was right in that there is a really important opportunity for Ireland, as it seeks to have carbon neutrality by 2050, to capture a lot of electricity off the west coast.

Deputy Gallagher has identified the matter of infrastructure. There is port infrastructure and grid infrastructure, which the Government has prioritised. There is some capacity to take electricity to the east coast, where it is needed. In this regard, I would point to the two 200 kV lines out of Moneypoint, which provide access to the east coast. This is important because it is going to be hard to build grid above ground given the objections we have seen. However, the real opportunity for capturing wind off the western seaboard will emerge as a result of decisions such as those taken by the Cabinet today on progression around private wires. Such decisions will allow large electricity users to connect to energy farms in close proximity to them off the grid. There are genuine opportunities in this regard. The Deputy will have seen in the programme for Government references to energy parks. If we are to capture a lot of wind off the coast of Donegal, Mayo, Galway or Clare, why not situate the large energy users in close proximity to where the energy is captured rather than transmit it through additional grid to get to the east coast? That is very much part of the longer-term thinking on capturing electricity off the west coast. There are opportunities along the east coast as well but there are constraints at the minute. The energy is needed just to deal with the demand that will come from decarbonising our economy in the first instance. I am referring to moving heat, power and transport away from fossil fuels towards a cleaner and greener alternative, which, ultimately, is electricity.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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My apologies as I have not looked at the other papers. We have had increases recommended in administration – pay and non-pay.

There has been a substantial reduction of just short of 17% in fisheries. The Marine Institute has had a slight increase, but of course, as the Minister of State indicated, it has income from other sources. BIM has had a substantial increase. Overall, there is not much of an increase, but fisheries has seen a reduction of nearly €7 million.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That is correct. The Brexit adjustment reserve fund is included in that line item, D3, under programme D. This year it is €38 million, from nearly €46 million in 2024. This reflects the fact that the Brexit adjustment reserve fund is not included this year. There was some last year and previously. That money was provided to the sector to address the fallout from the loss of quota as a result of the Brexit deal. We had the conversation before as to how that has moved on. From our resources, we have increased funding to Bord Iascaigh Mhara from €34 million to €47 million, an increase of 36%. That is a mixture of capital and current spending. There are increased supports for capital investment in respect of a number of projects, including safety schemes, upgrade works at Castletownbere, development of a seaweed culture system and a direct fish hatchery seeding system. We have been trying to smooth the curve of the fall-off from moneys provided through the Brexit adjustment reserve. We have done reasonably well this year. Next year is another issue we have to address right now. We are engaging with the Department of public expenditure in the near term in planning for next year. I hope that provides of some guidance.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State indicated that he will have to leave at 7 p.m. It is getting close to that. With his co-operation, Deputy Cahill and I would like to ask some questions. If that is okay, Deputy Cahill will have five minutes. We will finish on time in that case.

Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State. He referenced the importance of the seafood sector and fisheries. He also referenced the Government's commitment to coastal communities. I know it is planning related, but a huge problem for us in Kerry, in particular in Cromane, is that it is almost impossible to get planning permission for anything relating to the aquaculture industry. It does not make any sense because they are trying to promote and develop their business, regularise and abide by the law. There are great companies there such as Réalt na Mara Shellfish, Cromane Seafoods, etc. The delay in processing aquaculture licences is absolutely crazy. We have ready-to-go projects and their licences are not being renewed. It is going on and on. It is not a problem that started today or yesterday. Perhaps it is not relevant today, but I will ask the question. Is there any further update on the ban on pair trawling? Many people are very annoyed that this is dragging on. I thank the Chair for allowing me in.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am aware of the Deputy's interest. He has been in touch on a number of occasions on issues relating to Cromane and elsewhere. There are two aspects. I may seek clarification from the Deputy. Anything on land - terrestrial planning - is a matter for the local authority. I referred earlier to the issue around licences in response to Deputy Mac Lochlainn. It is an issue I am concerned about. I can see the impact it is having on the potential for future growth of the aquaculture sector. It is of particular importance at a time when coastal communities are under pressure because of falling stocks, the impact of quotas and the lack of availability of fish to meet the needs of the processing sector. Looking at fishing in a holistic way as a support for coastal communities, it is an important feature. Department officials, agencies and I are engaging in a process to see if we can improve the timelines and certainty around the whole licensing area. It is complex. The Deputy rightly identified that appropriate assessments are not straightforward. It should not be beyond the realms of possibility to get some pathway that would give certainty to those who wish to invest. I am conscious there are some big and relatively small operators for whom this is a difficulty. Deputy Mac Lochlainn outlined what is happening in the Faroe Islands, Iceland and Norway, and they are able to get it now. They are outside the European Union, but there are others in the Union that can navigate their way through this. I am conscious of the issue.

The Deputy also referred to pair trawling. Pair trawling in itself is one thing, but the issue is within the six-mile limit and larger boats with the capacity to fish aggressively for feed stocks. Sprat is one of those, but there are others. A Minister in a previous Government took particular decision in 2018 or 2019 to change policy. That policy was challenged in the courts and, effectively, rendered null and void. There was a further engagement by my predecessor, Deputy McConalogue, who sought expressions through a public consultation process which generated about 5,500 responses. I have been working through them with the Department. For completeness, before we make a decision, I have sought updated scientific and economic advice. At the time, the decision was taken based on a desire to protect the lives and livelihoods of the smaller inshore fishermen and women, rather than just the ecological damage being done and the impact on fish stocks. There has been an aggressive fishing effort particularly last year. It went from a relatively small amount of catch to a fairly significant catch last year. If that were continue, it would be of concern to us from a stock conservation perspective. We are working through it. I cannot tell the Deputy any more than that. Deputy Whitmore is looking on with some scepticism because I gave her the same answer recently. I know I will not be able to continue to take that position. We are progressing it within the Department. I want to make a decision on it pretty soon. I hope to get back to the Deputy relatively soon.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I have questions for the Minister of State which he has heard me speak about before. The first is regarding EMFAF and FLAG funding. What provision has been made in the Revised Estimates? What provision, if any is the Minister of State planning to make in the forthcoming budget in respect of any change from outside of Ireland - whether it is the European Union or the Commission - in terms of EMFAF? FLAG funding is important for economic diversification, adding value and supporting and keeping our coastal communities as sustainable as they can be. My next questions relates to the Minister of State's engagement with the Department of public expenditure with regard to this process. I wish to ask in particular about the funding scheme for local authority-owned ports and harbours. The Minister of State will be familiar with the situation of Helvick, which is located in a Gaeltacht area of west Waterford in my constituency. It is full of sand and silt. The local authority cannot access that fund for the preparatory work that needs to take place. It is out of kilter with the standard procedure for other types of Government funding to local authorities for all sorts of projects be they roads, housing, development of enterprise centres, etc. It seems to be an outlier in that it is only for shovel-ready projects, dismissing the fact that preparatory work can often cost a huge amount more than dredging.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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FLAG funding is included in the Revised Estimate for this year. The Cathaoirleach is interested in this matter, and I join him in his comments. FLAG is one of those schemes that probably does not get recognition for the really good work that it does. I pay tribute to the chairpersons of the various FLAGs around the coast who give of their time and do wonderful work in understanding the needs of their communities. It is an important source of funding and one I will endeavour to maintain in next year's budget. Obviously, I cannot give the quantum at this stage but it is an important source of funding, and I value that.

On the funding that the Department provides to local authorities to support the care and maintenance of small- and medium-sized harbours, the scheme has very much been based on shovel-ready projects to date. The funding is spent on care and maintenance in a lot of cases. The fund is not really for larger projects, as it provides a maximum of €280,000 for a shovel-ready project, so it does not get involved in larger projects. Some other supports may have to be identified elsewhere. At the moment, I do not propose to change things and have received no indications in that regard. I know the level of demand from projects that are already in place, so if I widened the net - pardon the pun - I would only bring more in and have less capacity. If I had more money, for sure-----

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Cé Heilbhic is only one example but, to be fair, the Department has been very generous-----

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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-----with regard to that particular small fisheries harbour, in that there have been significant strengthening works done. There is a new breakwater as well as new steps, ladders and so on. The scheme has been very good for Cé Heilbhic but the central job that needs to be done in order for the harbour to remain active is dredging. We do not have to rehash what has happened over the last 14 years of recent Irish history but local authorities have no money.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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They are dependent on programme funding from the various Departments. The FLAG scheme is out of step, out of kilter and is an anomaly when it comes to all the other funding schemes offered by different Departments to the very same local authorities for similar types of capital and maintenance work. That is why I ask the Minister of State and his officials to consider changing the nature of the scheme because if harbours like Cé Heilbhic are not cleared of silt and sand, then all the other works are in vain. It might be better to have fewer applications and approvals but bigger jobs. That might be where we need to go.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious that Cé Heilbhic falls under the ownership of the Department of housing, but notwithstanding that, we are all in government. The funding will not come from my Department. However, I will engage with the Cathaoirleach and some representatives of the county council - maybe I can get some officials from the Department of housing as well - and we will sit down and see if there is another way of doing things. I am happy to engage with the Cathaoirleach but I do not want to give him false hope. If we can take the discussion offline and into a meeting, then I will happily pull that together.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister of State and his officials for their time. I also thank the members for their questions and participation. I remind members that the joint committee will meet here in private session in less than ten minutes.