Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 10 July 2025
Public Accounts Committee
Business of Committee
2:00 am
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I remind all of those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent or switched off. Before we proceed, I have a few housekeeping matters. I remind members of the constitutional requirements that to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 226 that the committee shall refrain from enquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are further reminded of the long-standing practice and ruling of the Cathaoirleach to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way to make him or her identifiable.
The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. We will now examine accounts and statements, correspondence and the work programme. We will then suspend the meeting and resume at 10.30 a.m. for an engagement with officials from the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation and the NSSO. Six sets of accounts and financial statements, which were laid between 30 June and 4 July 2025, are due to be considered today. I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to address them before opening the floor to members.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
We have the financial statements of the University of Galway for the accounting period 2023-24. They received a clear audit opinion. The financial statements of Uisce Éireann for the calendar year 2024 received a clear audit opinion. The Marine Casualty Investigation Board 2024 financial statements received a clear audit opinion. The Corporate Enforcement Authority financial statements for 2024 received a clear audit opinion. The National Treatment Purchase Fund board financial statements for 2024 received a qualified audit opinion. In my view, the accounts give a true and fair view except that they account for the cost of retirement benefit entitlements only as they become payable, but that is a standard accounting presentation for the health bodies. The Child and Family Agency, also known as Tusla, financial statements for 2024 received a clear audit opinion. However, I drew attention to two matters. First, there were compensation and legal costs incurred by Tusla and the State Claims Agency in respect of four cases taken against Tusla. The compensation payments to the four individuals totalled €799,000. Plaintiff costs of €949,000 were paid in respect of two cases, with plaintiff costs in two cases yet to be determined. Tusla's own costs incurred to date are €1.6 million. The State Claims Agency's costs in these matters are not yet known. The second matter I drew attention to is a material level of procurement non-compliance, which was of the order of €5.4 million.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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In respect of the National Treatment Purchase Fund, we dealt with this issue when CHI was before us. The position of the National Treatment Purchase Fund with regard to how its moneys have been used is that it relied on the governance controls in every hospital that received those moneys. In Mr. McCarthy's opinion, all things being equal, should the National Treatment Purchase Fund have done more to probe where its moneys were being spent?
In very simple terms, the allegations seem clear in the hospitals that are under investigation that, essentially, moneys were given to those hospitals and they were not used in accordance with the way they were supposed to be used and how they have drawn down those moneys. What is the obligation on the National Treatment Purchase Fund, even from its board's perspective, to ensure that the moneys that go into those hospitals are spent in accordance with the way in which they have been given those moneys?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
They certainly have addressed the issue in the light of information that has come into the public domain. It was a matter that came up towards the end of the audit and we did discuss it with them. They are, I think, in the process of reviewing what they need to do. I think there is scope for them to do more, but it is an open matter at this stage. I do not want to be definitive about this. We will perhaps make recommendations to them about actions they could consider at least. The 2024 financial statements were presented, I think, just the night before they appeared here, so it is obviously open to the committee to bring them back and to discuss further with them, maybe in the autumn, what action they are taking to tighten up and to be able to provide the committee with better assurance.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I will follow on from that suggestion. I think they should come back before us if we can fit them in.
To go back to the University of Galway, there is a clear audit. As someone from Galway, I welcome that, and the university is very important. I have not had a chance to look at the documentation, but as regards the foundation, we discussed this the last time I was on the committee. That foundation is still in existence.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is it included now, parallel with the reports?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I understand that, and they have made arguments for that-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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As regards Tusla, we have confirmed that will be on our clár oibre because there are serious issues there and it is a very important agency. I will not go into them now. They are outlined here and we will have the agency before us.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It has been agreed that we will add Tusla to our work programme. To get some clarity from the C and AG before I call Deputy McAuliffe, who I think wants to come in on this, these are extraordinary levels of expenditure in terms of legal costs, and it appears that that is not the definitive cost at this point. Do we know how this has come to light? Was it a protected disclosure or a whistleblower? Obviously, you cannot get into detail, but-----
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
I think it is really for Tusla itself to provide explanations to the committee, but what is explained in the governance statement is that there were matters and I think I have pointed out that there was a subsequent whistleblower disclosure on the same set of events and both processes were ongoing. An investigation was done into the matters that were brought forward in the protected disclosure and a report was produced at, I think, a cost of €416,000, but that ended up being quashed after legal proceedings against the report. It is a very significant expense.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Where these issues flagged with you in the course of your work, Mr. McCarthy?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Were you looking to come in, Deputy McAuliffe? Anyone else? No? We will move on. Can we agree to note the listing of accounts and financial statements? Is that agreed? Agreed. The listing of accounts and financial statements will be published as part of our minutes.
The following B items of correspondence were considered. No. R0153 is correspondence from the Department of Education and Youth. I think Deputy McAuliffe raised this in private session and I think it was tied in with correspondence No. R0155, which is from the City of Dublin ETB and relates to Whitehall College.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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This is an issue which the previous public accounts committee dealt with. It relates to Whitehall College, a building which has lain idle and unused for almost a decade. City of Dublin ETB has provided detailed correspondence with regard to the current position. Unfortunately, while the Department's reply is incredibly helpful in terms of the new project that will take place on the adjoining lands, it has not responded to the issues with regard to Whitehall College and the legal issues there. I ask that we go back to the Department and ask it to provide the details relating to the current case, the utilisation of the building and the costs which have been incurred.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is it agreed by members that we take that action, that we write back and seek clarification on those items? Agreed.
No. R0187 is correspondence from the Minister for public expenditure. The committee agreed to note and publish that correspondence. That is agreed.
No. R0188 was correspondence from the Department of Transport. The committee has agreed to write to the Department of the Taoiseach to seek clarification on that correspondence and the memo that was sent out as regards accounts and statements. Is it agreed by members to write to the Department of the Taoiseach? I call Deputy Farrelly.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Can we ask specifically who else was in receipt of that outside of the NTA, just so that we can keep track?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is that agreed? That is agreed, members.
Next week, the committee will meet with officials from the Health Information and Quality Authority to examine its financial statements for 2023. Officials from the Department of Health and the Health Service Executive will also be in attendance. The committee will return after the summer recess on 18 September, when it will consider the accounts and statements laid over the summer and correspondence received by the committee during the summer recess.
The committee has also agreed to schedule engagements with the following in September and October: Uisce Éireann, Tusla, the HSE, the National Treatment Purchase Fund, also looking at bringing in Beaumont and other bodies, the Department of justice and the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, with a specific focus on the issue relating to the broadcast workers within the Oireachtas. Are members agreeable with those? Agreed.
We move on to any other business. Are there any other items the committee members wish to discuss?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
To come back to Deputy Connolly's question about the foundation financial statements, I have just looked at the copy I have here and it does not actually have attached the foundation financial statements. They would be published. Obviously, they are company financial statements so they are publicly available, but they are not associated with the version that appears to have been submitted.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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On that, I thank Mr. McCarthy for the clarification. On the last occasion, going back a few years, we thought it was very important - certainly, the members did - to have the two sets of accounts, even though the foundation does not come under our remit, but to have it there for clarity purposes and for context, so I ask that we go back and ask for that.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We can do that. I call Deputy McGrath.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the correspondence, when we had CHI before us, it was able to give us the legal costs involved for the dispute relating to the former chief executive. The representatives were not in a position to give us a figure for CHI's own legal costs. We sought that from them; they committed to provide it. Has there been any correspondence in that regard since?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We have issued correspondence to CHI this week so we await-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. Can we just ensure we get something back on that? It is critical information that we should know.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, we will follow up on that, Deputy.
If there are no other items, we will suspend for five minutes and resume in public session.