Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 10 July 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Education and Youth
Proposed Redesignation of Schools for Children with Mild General Learning Disabilities: Principals of Special Schools
2:00 am
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I welcome everyone this morning. I ask those attending remotely to mute themselves when they are not contributing so we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off entirely. Those in the precincts of Leinster House are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they may say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction. Members are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside of the Houses or of an official of the Houses either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
On the agenda for today's second session of the committee is the proposed redesignation of schools for children with mild general learning disabilities. I welcome Mr. Greg Browne, principal of Catherine McAuley school in Limerick; Ms Debbie O'Neill, principal of Scoil Eoin in Crumlin, Dublin 12; Mr. John Haran, principal of St. Bernadette's Special School in Letterkenny, County Donegal, who will be with us shortly; and Ms Rose-Marie Flanagan, principal of St. Anne's special school in Ennis, County Clare. They are all very welcome to today's meeting. I call on Mr. Browne to make his opening statement for which he has ten minutes. For the benefit of members, this is a combined opening statement on behalf of all four witnesses here today.
Mr. Greg Browne:
On behalf of my colleagues, we thank the committee for meeting us today. The publication of Circular 39/25 has greatly alarmed not only our staff members but also our parents and the schools our pupils come from. The circular threatens our designation and, fundamentally, our ethos, which, in reality, is created by the pupils we teach.
It is important that committee members understand the characteristics of mild general learning disabilities which, we feel, will explain more fully our deep concerns. Between 5% and 7% of the population has a mild general learning disability, which makes it the largest cohort of students in education with a disability. The IQ range for our schools is from 50 to 79, which makes it the widest band in learning disability. Often referred to as a hidden disability, it has a number of characteristics. There are expressive and receptive language difficulties in the moderate to severe range of language disability, which on a practical level means that pupils with a mild general learning disability cannot process a huge amount of what they hear at any given time. They have major difficulties with abstract concepts, especially in maths, including time, fractions, decimals and many other maths skills required for living. They have below average reading and comprehension levels, and most pupils with a mild general learning disability lag behind their peers by several years. Many will never reach a functional reading age of nine years. They have poor self-esteem and a lack of self-management skills. They have major difficulties with fine and gross motor skills. They have major difficulties with memory, resulting in difficulties with the retention of knowledge as well as poor concentration skills. They have an inability to absorb the complexities of their environment and to make generalisations and associations from what they learn. They have an inability to see danger and imagine outcomes or consequences.
The famous educational psychologist Lev Vygotsky stressed the importance of language in one's overall cognitive development and the importance of structured scaffolding in the learning process, which is key to understanding a learning disability. In up to 66% of cases, a mild general learning disability is accompanied by a co-occurring disability, which impacts directly on the pupil’s ability to learn. There is co-occurrence with autism, whereby 50% of all pupils with an autism diagnosis have a mild general learning disability.
Almost 10% of pupils with a mild general learning disability have challenging behaviour. Approximately 36% of pupils and adults with a mild general learning disability have a psychiatric disorder, which is by far the greatest cohort with psychiatric difficulties. Many of our students are being seen by the child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS. Other disabilities include Down's syndrome, attention deficit disorder, ADD, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, ADHD, fragile X syndrome, Prader-Willi syndrome, global developmental delay, epilepsy, dyspraxia and selective mutism, to name but a few.
Why are MGLD schools so important? The development of specials schools in Ireland was initially led by religious orders and concerned parents and groups, who recognised that mainstream education did not suit the needs of a significant section of the school-going population MGLD schools have consistently shown that their pupils have greater access to an inclusive education in an environment where the pupils are at ease and work at their own pace. This allows them to access the curriculum in a more meaningful way at primary and secondary levels, with many completing junior cert levels 2 and 3, the leaving certificate applied and Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, levels 1 to 4.
MGLD schools cater for those pupils who become marginalised in mainstream education because of learning disabilities and are in greater danger of expulsion in mainstream schools. MGLD is 14 times higher in prison inmates than in the main population, with up to 50% of all inmates having major literacy difficulties. MGLD schools have a great success rate in keeping pupils with learning difficulties in school up to the age of 18. They also have great success in providing access to either third level or further rehabilitative or vocational training, thus avoiding juvenile delinquency in their formative years.
MGLD schools are seen as the only hope for parents if their son or daughter is overwhelmed by the demands of mainstream education, where in many cases they have no friends as the gap between them and their peers widens with each passing year. Our schools seem to better suit the increasing number of pupils with school refusal difficulties. The right to a suitable educational placement is a cornerstone of democracy, and the right of each parent to choose our type of education is as equal as the right of any other parent to choose Educate Together schools, Gaelscoileanna or whatever they would like for their children.
MGLD schools have a higher proportion of students from disadvantaged areas who otherwise would have dropped out of education. They are not restrictive in their designation. In fact, what I have just stated clearly shows that our schools are the most diverse schools in Ireland.
Staff in MGLD schools have been some of the most innovative people in Irish education. The present-day levels 1 and 2 programmes owe their origin to the self-designed programmes that MGLD schools created over the last seven decades.
Our schools cater for more pupils from broken homes or in foster care and residential care than mainstream schools. We are often the one constant in their lives over many years of upheaval, and are advocates for them both while in school and when they have left after the age of 18.
Our schools build up networks of contacts with social workers and the HSE. In an age of online danger with social media, our school structure allows us to be most diligent about child protection for the most vulnerable and at-risk pupils.
Our schools cater for boys and girls whose learning disability results in severe shyness, oddities in behaviour and social interaction, low self-morale and self-esteem, autistic traits even if undiagnosed and those who might not attend school daily if we did not exist. In respect of our pupils with autism, the majority are not in autism-specific classes with a ratio of one teacher to six pupils but rather in larger MGLD classes with a ratio of one teacher to 11 pupils. The educational value of this is obvious, especially regarding socialisation and language development.
On Circular 39/25, our schools have major concerns. The first relates to our admissions policies. Until now, parents of prospective students applied to our schools directly, with a copy of an educational assessment showing that the pupils had a mild or borderline mild general learning disability and a recommendation for a place in our schools. These applications would then be approved at board of management level, followed by approval by our school special educational needs organiser, SENO. The circular proposes to majorly restrict the role of the board of management in its own admissions. Parents now have to seek approval from their own school SENO first to be eligible to apply for our schools. In my own case, up to ten different SENOs would determine who can or cannot apply to my school. This restrictive practice raises the question as to what will happen if a request for a letter of eligibility is refused by a SENO despite the pupil meeting the criteria of the school’s enrolment policy. Principals of MGLD schools may not even be aware of who is seeking a place in their schools.
No other sector in education would allow such control of admissions. To expect that parents and schools would have applied to their SENO by 1 October in the year previous to enrolment in our schools is unacceptable, to say the least, with the continuous difficulties in trying to get National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, or private assessments. Our own system at present has its proper checks and balances for admissions. Our schools do not canvass for pupils but parents approach us, often in desperation, seeking our help. Most of our schools accept pupils only after they have experienced mainstream education and parents are then in a better position to make an informed decision.
Our immediate concern is that pupils with a borderline mild general learning disability will not be recognised, as recent National Council for Special Education, NCSE, pressure on our schools not to accept these pupils indicates. The circular states, "Category of special educational needs that is not in line with NCSE guidelines for the operation of special classes." That is a direct threat to our schools and the ethos, experience, superb teaching practices and dedication our schools have cultivated since the 1950s.
Second, our principals, staff and parents see in the circular as a clear attempt to initiate a drastic change in all special schools with the creation of a one-size-fits-all special school where the range of disability would cover all forms. We believe our schools would be used to rob Peter to pay Paul, with places going to children with much more complex needs. None of us will disagree with the need for proper provision for these children, but not at the expense of children with other needs and disabilities. This is neither just nor fair.
In my 40 years in special education, the increase in autism diagnoses is probably the most significant issue to affect special schools. Our schools have carried a huge proportion of this load, with up to 50% of our intake now having an autism diagnosis, coupled with the slow but steady increase in the number of students with pathological demand avoidance. There has been no proper definition of the term "complex needs" but it is taken to mean pupils with very challenging behaviour along with non-verbal difficulties, allied to learning difficulties in the moderate to severe range of learning disabilities. With the increase in pupils with such complex difficulties, a comprehensive plan needs to be formulated not just for their school years but also for after-school provision. This will take time but should not be done at the expense of pupils with a mild general learning disability. Pupils with complex needs need a suite of therapies on site along with purpose-built classrooms to cater for their needs.
Mild general learning disability schools have been in existence for many years and have served their students and families well. We are an integral part in the continuum of provision of suitable educational opportunities for those pupils with a mild or borderline mild general learning disability.
Our schools are the envy of many teachers from Europe and elsewhere in the world, who visit us regularly and comment that their educational systems need our approach. Our work gives a much more educational and human meaning to the term "inclusion", which is often bandied about. The right of every student to attend a school of their choosing applies as equally to our students as to the boy or girl who seeks the primary or secondary school of their choice. Were our schools to be forced to change their designation, the immediate problem of the lack of places for pupils with complex needs would be replaced by the greater problem of increased school drop-out and expulsions. That a disability is not initially apparent does not mean it does not exist. The success of mild intellectual disability special schools in helping our students to access education should not be used as a reason to say our pupils would survive in mainstream schools with supports. For them, this has already been tried and has failed.
Our schools are not just places of learning; they are the homes and communities that most would not otherwise have. The term "complex" can be applied as easily to our students as it can to those with extreme behavioural needs. The demand for our schools is greater than ever, with over half having increased enrolments in recent years, while others are at full capacity given the restrictions of their sites. We simply ask that we be allowed to continue the good work we have been doing for those pupils whose disability is not as evident as that of others but nevertheless every bit as real.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Browne. We welcome Mr. John Haran, who has joined the witnesses. Ms Debbie O'Neill, one of our witnesses, has a letter from a parent to put on the record of the committee's proceedings. I invite her to proceed.
Ms Debbie O'Neill:
Given that we have given the committee a lot of factual information and statistics, I want to read a letter from a parent of a child in our school. We are going to call her "Aoife" just to keep the anonymity. You could replace "Scoil Eoin" with any of our four schools.
Dear committee members,
My daughter Aoife is 14. She has Mild General Learning Disability and her life revolves around Scoil Eoin. The plan to re-designate this school would leave children like her with nowhere to go. I'm heartbroken and deeply concerned.
Mainstream schools cannot give Aoife what she has at Scoil Eoin. Here, she plays soccer without being laughed at. If she scores into the wrong goal, she's still celebrated. She sings loudly in choir, off-key, and no one minds. She belongs.
At Scoil Eoin, Aoife is not falling behind. She is seen for who she is. She has friends. She is learning. She is confident. She is happy.
That wasn't always the case. In mainstream school, she cried every day. She called herself stupid. She couldn't keep up and was laughed at and excluded. Her self-worth disappeared. She was lost.
Now she thinks her school is like every other school. She doesn't realise the curriculum is adapted but here, she is finally learning. She is proud of herself.
Re-designating Scoil Eoin will remove the one place where children like Aoife are supported, understood and safe. Mainstream schools do not have the resources or expertise to support children like her. And the cost will be high; her mental health, her confidence, her future.
Scoil Eoin didn't just educate Aoife; it saved her. It gave her a sense of self-worth and belonging. Please don't take that away.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Ms O'Neill. On behalf of the committee, she might thank Aoife and her parents for laying bare how important all of this is to their family. The letter will be on the record of today's meeting.
We will proceed to members' questions. Each Deputy and Senator has four minutes. In that time, they should allow witnesses time to respond, so they should not fully run down the clock.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank our guests for being here and for statements. I had a number of questions in mind that I was going to ask. It is quite difficult for me to decide where I stand on this topic because on the one hand, I want every child to go to the school that is geographically closest, where their siblings and neighbours are, and where their little friends in the local GAA club are, and on the other hand, I have had many mothers approach me since my election to say their children with dyslexia do not get the support they need because there are so many kids in their classes or schools with complex needs or autism, meaning those schools are just not able to provide what they need. The ideal is obviously a place for the child in your school, but, on the other hand, there has been an increase in diagnosis over the years. The guests have talked about their ethos since the 1950s but so much has changed since then that I really struggle with the idea of schools that deal with just one cohort. I am aware that is difficult. I could not do the delegates' job in a million years and I am sure it is really difficult. Their schools sound like fabulous places and Aoife is a lucky girl, as are her parents. I am not sure I have a question. I just wanted to say where I am really stuck on this.
I read the circular. I understand it is a matter of the opening discussion. I assume the delegates will engage in the process. Maybe the Minister has engaged with them directly. They might let me know.
Ms Debbie O'Neill:
I will answer that. We have had no engagement. We have done a lot of media engagement on this over the past while and, despite the Minister saying there would be engagement with us, there has not been any. This is not a new thing. Redesignation has not so much been threatened – "threatened" is not the right word – but mentioned a lot over the past few years without there being an understanding of who we are and what we do. Narrow designation is referred to a lot. We have proven in our statement that our designation is the broadest that exists. If we were to expand it any more, we would be diluting the whole spectrum of provision on offer. In this day and age, we should be able to keep something that is working and build for the future for those who do not have a place yet. Make no mistake: if redesignation happens, while the children we have at the moment will not be forced back into mainstream education, those children we are yet to meet most definitely will. There are no special classes in mainstream education left for children with mild cases. There are 49 in the country. There were 50 but the CBS in Nenagh has just been refused permission to keep its one. There are 49 mild intellectual disability classes in mainstream schools across the country, so we do not know where our cohort will go.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Ms O'Neill.
Deputy Dempsey might have noticed that she still had 30 seconds left on the clock. The clock has malfunctioned. Until we get it working, I will manually keep time.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I definitely will not need four minutes. I thank the delegates for attending. It was great to have read their submissions and to have heard from them. I am on the board of a mild learning disability school, a general learning disability school, so I will just listen to all the comments, if that is okay.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Many of us here in this room have been teachers and have been involved at various levels. At the outset, we often declare an interest. Members are welcome to contribute if they wish. Is the Senator happy to listen?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
No problem at all.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Our guests are very welcome. I thank them very much for attending, particularly for what is a very detailed opening statement. There was such an incredible amount of information in it and it set out the issues so clearly that I am left wondering what questions need to be asked. The concerns have already been raised with me and I have been in contact with the relevant Ministers about the written submissions already sent. This conversation has arisen a few times already at meetings of this committee. Ms O'Neill mentioned the example of the CBS primary school in Nenagh. The concept of robbing Peter to pay Paul, which Mr. Browne referred to, is a matter I am genuinely worried about.
There is great pressure in this country to find or create spaces for children with complex needs. A great deal of work is being done. Thankfully, we are going to see a lot of classes opening in September. A huge amount remains to be done, however. My worry is that one set of children who are disadvantaged in education and who are struggling will get something that others might then lose out on.
In view of the part of the country I represent, I am very familiar with Mr. Browne's school in Limerick because the children of local families have attended it and local people have taught there, are teaching there or were on placement there. There is probably a lack of understanding generally around this issue. We get it, as do the witnesses who work in the area. The families of students attending the schools also get it, but I do not know if other people know what these schools do. The witnesses have explained the broad scope of the work they do. I am concerned about those children who are on their last chance when it comes to education. The witnesses are holding onto these children and finding a way to keep them in school every day in order to give them a chance and keep them away from antisocial behaviour. That was outlined earlier. These children cannot be allowed to lose out just because there is so much pressure on us to facilitate complex needs. I refer in particular to the MGLD class in Nenagh CBS, which has highlighted the issue relating to children with Down's syndrome who often do not have an autism diagnosis but who have a special needs diagnosis, an MGLD diagnosis, and how hard it is for those children to get places because of the lack of autism diagnoses. Mr. Browne's school is highlighting the work done there, while also taking in children with autism diagnoses. What he said about a child in the school, Aoife, sums up exactly what we need to be concerned about.
There must be a meeting between the officials, the Minister and the representatives of these schools to ensure that there is full understanding of what is involved. Ministers have repeatedly told us that the purpose of the first circular is to start the conversation, but the Department also needs to hear about what is happening in this instance. We must feed it up the line and try to get a meeting for the school principals with the relevant individuals and the Minister, if possible.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is Deputy O'Meara formally proposing that?
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Deputies Cummins and Dempsey have seconded the proposal. Is it agreed? Agreed.
Mr. Greg Browne:
Statistically, the Department is working off a figure of one in 20 children in education in Ireland who has a diagnosis of autism. When we take that figure to the broad expanse of education in Ireland, it is 50,000 pupils. Somewhere in the region of 15,000 of that huge cohort of 50,000 pupils have the most complex needs and need will a bespoke education. They will need intense therapies and all of the facilities the State can provide. We are not saying they do not need it; what we are clearly saying is that we have a cohort as well, which is equal in number, who would be lost in Irish society if our schools did not exist.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Browne very much.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Browne. The clock is back up and running. We will reset it entirely. I have the accurate time here. I thank all for their forbearance in that regard. Deputy O'Rourke has four minutes.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the committee, the secretariat and the Chair for facilitating this meeting. I also thank Deputy Cummins for proposing it. I thank the witnesses for being here.
It strikes me that there is a fundamental issue at stake in terms of the design and mix of our special education system. My concern, and what I hear from the witnesses, is that we have the potential to both lose and fail a significant number of children. I think of children with Down's syndrome who will quietly accept it, who will have no system to support them and who will be failed.
We have heard the Government spell out its argument to the effect that there is a move to deal with complex needs. Am I right in saying there is a risk that we will fail children? Is it the witnesses' argument that this is about additionality rather than a one-size-fits-all approach? Perhaps the witnesses could start with that question.
Ms Rose-Marie Flanagan:
There is a lot of research, particularly in respect of New Brunswick and the model that is in place there, but the reality is that it is very different in our settings. We do not even have sufficient support from the CDNTs, so, as it is, we are struggling to support these students.
From an academic point of view, all of our pupils experience a sense of success and of belonging. Going back to UNESCO and the Education Act, every child has a right to an education that is meaningful and respectful. Every child who attends our school settings has an education that is differentiated, whereby we adopt universal design for learning approaches. Every child experiences success at their level.
I worked in mainstream education for two decades so I get what it is like to be in that setting. These children are integrated, probably supported by special needs assistants and, unfortunately, they will not be active. Our students experience massive success, even in extracurricular activities. We have all had students experience success at national level, in higher competitions, and FAI soccer tournaments. We are going to fail those children. We are talking about the children of the future who will be failed. The current cohort will continue to excel.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What about the suggestion that we would have special classes? I know we do not have them and that we are losing them rather than increasing the number, but is there an argument that special classes might be an appropriate forum?
Ms Debbie O'Neill:
I do not think that is going to happen. We can talk about it but, as of last year – my numbers are open to correction – there were 3,300 autism classes in mainstream schools, as opposed to the 49 or 50 for mild disabilities. Any school that has approached the Department to try to open a MGLD class has been refused. While that would be wonderful, I do not think it is on the cards.
Well-being in schools is often talked about these days. It should be first and foremost. Since 2019, SSE has all been around well-being. There is no well-being in this redesignation. It is all about the students being able to access level 1 and 2 programmes. What about their well-being?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I presume what the witnesses are urgently looking for is engagement on this issue. Do they get any succour from the Minister? It was stated at a previous meeting that there will not be a change in September.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Ms O'Neill wants to see that happen.
Mr. John Haran:
In the context of autism classes, we were doing two weeks of the summer provision. Just this week I got a phone call from a parent in west Donegal who has a nine-year old child in an ASD class where it is not working out. The parent is looking for a place in our school. That happens all the time. Our school in Donegal has expanded massively in the past five years. That is down to a whole lot of reasons, including the brilliant staff and the great work going on. My door is being knocked down every day with parents looking to get their children in. Special education is so complex and varied. The MGLD schools are brilliant. Why would we want to mess that up for those children who are not as disabled as other children? The fundamental problem is that they are not as disabled, yet they have so many needs and they would be lost in mainstream education. It would just be a disaster.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Haran.
Mr. Greg Browne:
In my school, we have 280 students. It is the largest special school in Ireland. The demand for it is growing. I will give one example. I had a boy there who started in first year in a local secondary school. It was not working out. He was in the borderline range for mild disability, which means his IQ was between 70 and 79. I met him with his mam and had a chat with him. I asked him why he wants to come to our school and if he was not happy in his secondary school. What he said explains it.
He said:
Mr. Browne, I go to school every day. I am in classes. I do not understand one thing the teachers are telling me. I do not understand it. The only thing I know is I am not as bright as the other boys in the school.
That explains in a nutshell what we do with the borderline range of learning disabilities. I could not encapsulate it any better.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Browne.
Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The witnesses are most welcome. Like others, I need to inform myself more about what is being advised and the changes being made. Aoife's letter is compelling. Sometimes, when change is advised or recommended, an element of fear comes into it. Regardless of what is being proposed, fundamentally, special children need special educational teaching, coaching and mentoring. It would be a calamity if, in what is being proposed, one child were to be left behind. That is something of which we all must be cognisant. Every parent's nightmare is struggling to find a school place that suits his or her child. Parents want the best in life for their children. If children are forced into something that fundamentally goes against their wishes, it adds enormous pressure to an already complex situation for young parents who want the best for their child. As I said, I need to inform myself more about what is being proposed.
The presentations were quite compelling and graphic in terms of what the witnesses feel will happen as a consequence of the change. If it causes children to be left by the wayside or leaves them in mainstream schools without access to the resources needed, as in the case mentioned where a student did not have the capacity to learn because of the teaching methodologies or because he was not given enough time, that would be a calamity. This is not something that would rest easy with me. I want to know more about it. Whatever is proposed must be fit for purpose. It certainly should not and must not disadvantage any individual or family.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I apologise for being late. Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as a bheith anseo. I understand completely the very specialised service they provide and I agree that we need to protect the status of schools for children with mild general learning disabilities.
The Department has said there has been much positive engagement with principals regarding the redesignation. However, I have heard from principals I know, and seen in the media, that their hand was forced and that funding would be withdrawn if they did not redesignate the status of their schools. Will the witnesses offer more clarity on the type of funding that will be removed if schools do not comply?
Ms Rose-Marie Flanagan:
My understanding is that, from a staffing point of view, schools will not be able to manage if they do not have appropriate teacher numbers and special needs assistants. That is at a very basic level. The changes would also impact on our capitation funding. We have to purchase a lot of extra materials and resources in comparison with a mainstream setting. The change would affect the running of our schools. Things are already really tight in terms of managing our finances to run our school effectively.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That suggests it is a case of hands being forced as opposed to the positive engagement the Department has indicated is happening.
Ms Debbie O'Neill:
That has not happened to our four schools. We have been extraordinarily steadfast in trying to hold the line on maintaining our designation. However, there certainly are schools among the group of 30 of which we are a part that have been forced to change designation. It is very disappointing to see the Minister sending out the very same letter every time somebody asks a question about this. It is stated that of the 30 schools, 16 have already broadened their designation. In fact, we have all broadened our designation to meet the need, but the schools that have had to change their policies are finding it extraordinarily difficult to cope because their designation has become so broad. One school in Dublin has had to stop offering the junior certificate because it can no longer provide the level of teaching required on the basis of the complexity of need of the children it has had to bring in. It is not okay just to broaden the designation and then not provide the resourcing to match it. That dilutes what can be offered across the entire cohort.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am trying to learn. What is the difference between the schools that have broadened their designation and the change in policy?
Ms Rose-Marie Flanagan:
The NCSE approached a number of schools for children with mild disabilities to cater for children with a moderate diagnosis. Schools in a local area might have taken children from the next town or from other counties that have no school places. They have been forced to open moderate classes, and that is ring-fenced separately in terms of their admissions policy.
Ms Debbie O'Neill:
What is proposed in the circular, or what has been explained to us at least, is that admissions policies will need to change. Right now, our admissions policy is that a child must have a mild general learning disability. However, as Mr. Browne said, 60% of children with a mild learning disability have a co-occurring disability. It is not the narrow designation the Department is claiming it to be.
Mr. Greg Browne:
We are here today because we serve a particular group of students in Irish education who have disabilities. They may not have the complex behavioural needs of other children but they are as important in the Irish education system as children with complex needs. There is a danger, as Deputy O'Meara said, of robbing Peter to pay Paul. There is going to be a crisis concerning children with complex needs. Everybody is aware of that, and the statistics bear it out. As I said, if there are 50,000 children with a diagnosis of autism, 16,000 of them will have complex needs. If we divide that 16,000 by six per class, we can work out the maths as to how many classes the Department will have to provide.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I welcome the witnesses and thank them for attending. We all agree that every child has the right to an education in an appropriate setting. The requirement that it be appropriate to their needs is what is important. Preferably, it should be in the child's locality, alongside his or her siblings, but that is not always possible. Account must also be taken of student and parental choice. Do the witnesses find they are getting more applications from parents of children with complex needs? If so, are they having to turn them down?
Mr. John Haran:
We are receiving applications from children within our designation, that is, the mild range. Perhaps that is because parents know St. Bernadette's Special School is a school for children with a mild general learning disability. Little Angels Special School is the school in Letterkenny for children with moderate and profound learning disabilities. However, we will very soon have a waiting list, which we have never had in our history. Our school will have 125 students in September, which takes us very close to capacity. We are getting loads of applications from the students who should be coming to us.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Mr. Haran's school is seeing an increase in applications that are appropriate.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There has been an increase in the number of appropriate applications.
Is that because there are not enough special classes in schools?
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It has been said there were 50 but it is now 49 and schools have been refused.
Ms Rose-Marie Flanagan:
In the context of my own school, children have moved from special classes in post-primary settings to our own setting. We find that the predominate increase in children applying are in fourth, fifth and sixth class in primary school because their primary school is not able to meet their needs. The same applies in post-primary. Mr. Browne mentioned a child who had completed first year in his school. It is very common for children to transition into our school for post-primary because basically they are being failed in the mainstream post-primary school. Unfortunately, they are having no meaningful relationships with peers and are left isolated. We know that we Maslow before we Bloom in our school context. Unfortunately, in mainstream settings there are class sizes of 30 children and more, so these children are being left behind and failed.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Concerns have been expressed about the circular. Did Ms Flanagan say the NCSE has not engaged in consultation?
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Was there none at all?
Ms Rose-Marie Flanagan:
No. The Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, visited our school and it was very positive. We were lucky to have Deputy Cathal Crowe with us on the day as well. I felt heard but I have been very disappointed since. Many parents had parliamentary questions tabled and the feedback has been very disappointing. I felt it was a box-ticking exercise but there was no mention of the circular. I highlighted the need for the NCSE to be aware of the excellent work being done in our school settings. We did feel heart but unfortunately it looks like that was not-----
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Department has determined that Ms Flanagan's school is not an appropriate school setting for a child with more complex needs. We need to look at that. The witnesses' schools are special schools.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Will they qualify for the therapeutic supports the Department is rolling out, starting with special schools?
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I presume that will make an immense difference.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
As has been said, the CDNTs are practically non-existent on the ground.
Ms Debbie O'Neill:
We were part of the same project, the school inclusion model, SIM, over the past number of years. The model started in 2018 and we were one of the pilot schools. After the Covid pandemic, we had a speech and language therapist but no occupational therapist. The SIM pilot project was hailed as a success but the only thing we got over the six years of SIM was a speech and language therapist and an occupational therapist for a few visits who taught us some strategies around visuals. There were no therapeutic interventions with children. If that is going to be the same again, it is not going to cut it.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We are given to understand that is not the case and SIM will be expanded. I hope that is the case because children need that support and it is not being provided on the ground.
Ms Rose-Marie Flanagan:
In my school we have had to privately fund therapies. As we do not have sufficient therapies, we are spending in excess of €5,000 a month. I commend the staff and, in particular, the parents' association which has been fantastic at fund-raising to support that need. Without those supports, we would be at breaking point.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
All going well, we may get another short contribution from everyone. I am next on the speaking roster. I thanked Mr. Browne privately. A family member of mine got a wonderful ten years of education experience in his school. It was not all books; it was gardening, musicals and all of those fabulous things that allowed the person to grow and flourish. That personal development has stood to them to this day and they are long gone out of the system. I thank Mr. Browne.
I thank Ms O'Neill for reading her letter into the record, Mr. Haran for joining us from Donegal and Ms Flanagan for bringing us around her school on the day we visited and on the day I visited subsequently.
I will home in on one point. It is 20 years since the EPSEN Act was passed and we have spent 20 years getting our heads around the work of SENOs. To raise a bugbear of mine, I would not walk down the street to any of the hospitals here in Dublin, stand at the front door and decide, with my qualifications, who gets to gain access to the emergency department, who goes up upstairs to neurology or who gets admitted. I do not have the professional skill set to do that, yet we have similar expectations of SENOs. I have treble-checked and the qualification criteria have not changed in 20 years. The entry requirement is QQI level 8, which is a bachelor's degree. That is what SENOs have. They are good people who are qualified in a certain area. Are they qualified to interpret and dismiss an educational psychological report? For years, as a teacher, we just accepted this and bemoaned it in our staffroom when these reports were thrown out or thrown back at us. It was not until a few years ago that a parent, who was legally trained, made the point that no one travelling home on a motorway would pull over at roadworks, get out of the car and tell the engineers a bridge should be built differently and no one would tell other professionals that a certain person should not get into hospital. In no professional walk of like would that happen, yet we have put SENOs in that position. SENOs do a fine job collectively but the legal point should be made that we have parents, schools, NEPS and CDNTs and we have volumes of files and reports, yet this circular will put the SENO in the position of gatekeeper for these schools. What is the witnesses' take on that?
I said at the outset that no one can be named, including SENOs. SENOs are a collective and an entity under the EPSEN Act. Do the witnesses have faith in SENOs to interpret the circular and approve the admission of a child to a school based on the evidence in front of them?
Mr. Greg Browne:
Our schools always have good working relationships with SENOs. In 99% of cases, SENOs have been very helpful. The Chairman's point is well made. As I mentioned in our presentation, the checks and balances that we had in our admission policies worked. For example, we did not accept any child who was not in our range. The child had to have an educational psychological assessment clearly stating their IQ, with a recommendation by a psychologist to come to our schools. Those are the fundamentals of our admissions policies. Now, the system is in reverse. The parents must contact their local SENO and get a letter for eligibility by 1 October of any year. By 1 October of this year, parents will have to have most of their paperwork in place to apply to have their child attend our schools next September. The power has been taken from the board of management. The checks are in our schools. We never break our admission policies. Children must have the proper IQ, there has to be a recommendation and board of management approval and, finally, the SENOs will sign off to say we are not abusing the system. That is now going the other way, however. We had a perfect system for special schools in place. It allowed no abuse. It was not that we were inflating or keeping our numbers artificially high for other reasons. We keep within the guidelines of our enrolment policies and they are approved by our patron. I hope I have answered the question.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes. We have to be careful about how we go about this. This point has been challenged by individual families representing their individual children. I think the committee should ask the NCSE a question. The NCSE set the entry criteria for people to become a SENO. Given that the new circular is out and will, we believe, be implemented, are SENOs professionally qualified and legally entitled to interpret and, on occasion, dismiss reports by educational psychologists? In particular, do they have equal or even superior qualifications? Unless I have totally misunderstood all professional life and the QQI qualifications, in the professional world the only way that someone can dismiss a report is if they are of equal or higher professional standing. That is how it works in healthcare. We have all been to the GP who will refer us on to a consultant or maybe a surgeon. There is no gatekeeper at the door saying, "Sorry, you cannot get in here." The committee should ask that question. It probably needs to be carefully worded.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes, absolutely.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Can I get agreement from the committee that we ask that question and let us see what the NCSE comes back with? We may have to go further on it.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am delighted that the witnesses are here today. I thank the other members of the committee for facilitating the invitation. I think it was in May that I visited Ms O'Neill's school for the first time. When I left on my bike I was kind of floating through Crumlin to come back here, thinking what a wonderful and safe place I had just visited. I saw the students there playing in the yard and as someone described earlier, it did not matter if the ball went in or not. Everyone was delighted and cheering when the ball went in and they were all helping when the ball went out. It was a really caring school, with a lot of love. For me, education has to look at the child's needs. Love and care always need to be there. I see now there is a switch to it being more about numbers and ticking boxes and getting as many people in as possible. I know we have children with incredible needs who need to be minded, cared for and loved. However, my fear is that if we put everybody with such complex and different needs in, we will not be able to mind anybody. I do not want to use the word "diluted" but in our education system, I feel that staff in schools will be so stretched that they will not know where to go.
When I heard earlier that there were plans to get rid of the junior cycle, I thought that it is not the be-all and end-all. We know that. The other skills in Ms O'Neill's schools are maybe the skills that mainstream schools do not have time to teach, because they are teaching to the curriculum. The witnesses' schools also have the capacity to do the junior cycle at the level the student is at. Is that not what the parent was saying? Anyone here who is a parent needs to know that this could be any of our children or grandchildren. We need to have an education system that facilitates every single child. It is their right. We are not making this stuff up; it is written down. As I said in the Dáil the other day, Ireland has to give a right to children and they have rights to an education that is appropriate for them. It should be culturally sensitive and flexible according to their needs. If we are seeing that more young people are being diagnosed, then we need to be flexible on that. However, we do not need to then put everybody in the same category and - I will use the word - dilute the provision, the care and the love. This is not a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul; pitting one set of pupils against another is not right. It puts strain.
When I worked in education disadvantage I saw therapists or NEPS psychologists telling the teachers, SNAs and other care team staff how to support the child from an occupational therapy perspective or an educational psychology perspective. We do not need the role of the teacher or SNA being broadened to include therapies. They have a defined role and that needs to be kept. The therapists coming in need to do the therapeutic work. Everybody needs to be able to do what they are qualified and trained to do and what they love doing, to the best of their abilities.
I am not leaving Ms O'Neill any time to speak but I am so passionate about this. I am so happy to be pushing this. I do not know how many times I have mentioned it now. It is probably even more times than I have mentioned the school completion programme, which is my pet topic. I commend all the witnesses, particularly those who came down from Donegal. It is a very long way to come. I wish the school staff, parents and students all the best. We will keep fighting this. We will keep saying that we cannot have this redesignation.
Ms Debbie O'Neill:
I want to say how grateful we in Crumlin are for Deputy Cummins's support. It is rare to have somebody walk into a school for students with a mild general learning disability and automatically get it and she did so. We are very grateful for all her support and for us being here today.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
This is more a comment than a question. For me, something quite fundamental is at stake here. I refer to the mix of our education system and accessibility for children differentiated based on their needs. That is a fundamental piece and I will be very happy to work with the witnesses. We have identified this, in fairness to the committee. We will pursue it and work with the witnesses to try to get a successful resolution to it. There is a need for additionality, of course.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
To follow on from the Cathaoirleach's comment about SENOs gatekeeping, are there cases of SENOs not granting letters of eligibility?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We will get that question answered in a minute. Does the Deputy have any more questions?
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
No.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Every day is a learning day, and I was so glad to hear all of the contributions, particularly the letter from the woman that was read out. It is commendable that the witnesses have such a good insight into that. I feel that I do too, being on the board of one school, which is the best position I have ever taken. I see the work of the principal and the vice principal. I always bring up the issue of bus escorts in terms of the transport in the mornings and what teachers have to do, with all those kids getting on and off buses. I welcome further discussion on this. We need to get the right solution for it.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for coming in. To be honest, before the witnesses appeared here, I thought many of their concerns were to do with the fear of change and the fear of the unknown. I understand now that it is actually the fear of the known and what will result if this happens. I am really disappointed to hear that there was no engagement. Like the rest of the committee members, I will do what I can to support the witnesses.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for being here. They have provided important information and background on an area that is often a vacuum of a lack of information, knowledge or understanding of. As Deputy Dempsey said, it is important to understand what the change means. Many times, once there is a change, there is a fear of change. We need to get the message across to people in here that this is not what this is. In my engagements on this with Mr. Browne and the MGLD class in Nenagh, I have noted the lack of information in the general population of what these schools are and the challenge of trying to get people to properly understand them. It has been very useful for the committee, and also more generally, to get this point raised in the Houses. I thank the witnesses for their contributions and the opening statement, which has been hugely helpful to our work.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am delighted that people have been able to engage. The whole point is that if people have knowledge, it means they have a full understanding of what is going on. Because the witnesses are working away nice and quietly and are busy doing what they are supposed to be doing, sometimes it is very difficult to promote this really good work. I am delighted they have had the opportunity to explain to the members their work. The proposals we have accepted have gone through and hopefully that work will happen. I look forward to working with the witnesses and I wish them safe home.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That line in the Constitution about cherishing all the children of the nation equally gets overused. It is only every truly embodied in one of the witnesses's schools. Most of us have visited special schools and it is beautiful what goes on in them. There is no judgment and there is inclusion and a lot of happiness for children who may find day-to-day life difficult.
Regarding the roll numbers, the schools are designated as primary schools and yet are now expected to run out a full secondary school programme. This has implications for funding, curriculum, teachers and for designation. Is there now a need to have primary school roll numbers, secondary school roll numbers and special school roll numbers, so that you special schools receive special designation in their own right? We have about eight minutes left so I ask the witnesses to apportion the response times among themselves. We will start with Ms O'Neill.
Ms Debbie O'Neill:
I will let the others talk on the roll numbers. If the committee could do what the Cathaoirleach suggested for us, it would be fantastic, but it is a long way from happening, I would say. I will finish with a little story about who we really are and what we do. It is hard to figure it out when talking about just numbers but we had a whole curriculum evaluation in English last year, where two inspectors came in to us for two days. Afterwards, we were brought together as a management team for feedback.
One of the inspectors said that she really wished she had been there for a whole-school-evaluation, which would take a week, so she could then write in the report exactly what she wanted to say. She wanted to say that the overwhelming feeling you get when you spend time in our school is one of love. It is love that we have for the children, love that the children have for us and the love that we have for each other. That environment does not happen organically in a school. One works on that all of the time as a principal and management to get the right people in to make sure that one has the right resources to work with the families and be the first point of contact all the time. I think that is really what we do and what we do well. Love means inclusion and belonging. Just because something is written about inclusion in a paper does not mean that if children go to a school they are included. My story gives a little more insight into all of our schools and what we are.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Very Good.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Very Good. Thank you very much.
Ms Rose-Marie Flanagan:
I thank the committee for the invitation and for listening to us. I wish to point out that it is really important that we look at the most important individuals here, namely the students. We are here representing the students, our staff who are so committed and expert, the parents, the guardians, the wider school community, and our patrons and boards of management. We feel that redesignation is being forced on us, that we are not being liaised with, there is no communication and that there will be a complete lack of control from a school point of view. I think it will impact the parental voice and parental choice, which are really important.
An important point was made about a different roll number. It is vital that the teachers and SNAs in our schools have the same rights and terms and conditions as teachers in primary and post-primary school settings. As has been said, 65% of our school population are post-primary and we are a designated primary, which has an impact in terms of funding. Unfortunately, it does have an impact in terms of parents having to make contributions to help support the needs and commitments within the school.
Finally, inclusion is really important. We know that there is no universal definition of inclusion. We know that every single child in our school community is actively included and involved and they experience a sense of belonging, which is really important.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I ask Deputy Ní Raghallaigh to repeat the question she asked in the last round and Mr. Haran might address it.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Are there cases of SENOs not granting letters of eligibility?
Mr. John Haran:
In our case, no. I say that because all the parents who apply to our school know that we are a school for children with a mild general learning disability. So when parents ring me and say they are thinking about sending their child to the school, I tell them that the first thing we need is an educational and psychological report from an educational psychologist and that the child needs to have an IQ of between 50 and 69. If it is below 50 then that is the moderate to severe and profound range so means attending the Little Angels School, which is the other special school in Letterkenny. In my experience a SENO has never refused an application to our school because it would never get that far, if the Deputy understands?
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes, I understand. Go raibh maith agat.
Mr. John Haran:
I thank the committee for having us here today. It has been brilliant. I apologise for being late but my flight from Donegal was delayed by an hour.
St. Bernadette's school in Letterkenny is brilliant and the number of pupils attending rises every year. That is a testament to the staff in the school and the work that we are doing. Traditionally, our numbers would have increased in respect of secondary education. So children would have gone to school up until sixth class in their local community but their parents would have realised that the jump to the local secondary school with 500 or 600 students and bells ringing and classes moving around was too much. Therefore, children would come to us for their secondary education. Over the last five years, we have seen a massive increase in the number of children coming to us at an earlier age so from third, fourth or fifth class in primary school. Without exception, every parent has said to me that within six weeks of their child starting in St. Bernadette's they wished their child had been in the school years ago. That is wonderful for us to hear but sad for parents that mainstream education did not work out for them. Mainstream education does not work for everyone and that is why children come to us. These children get the most wonderful education in a place, as Ms O'Neill has said, where they are loved and cherished.
It is important to point out that our staff over the years have built up massive expertise and experience in the field of mild general learning disability. Our brilliant teachers applied to work in our school because it is a MGLD school. That is their passion and where their expertise lies. They will get burned out and leave if our designation is changed because it will not be for them and is not what they signed up for. They are brilliant teachers and brilliant at what we provide. Special education is complex and wide-ranging. Why change a sector that is doing so well and that works so well for our students?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank each of you. It is 10 July and our witnesses are all on their holiday leave. They have taken time out of what should be family time to come here, which is greatly appreciated. I thank them for their attendance and engagement today. I thank the technical team who keep meetings going. We had no electricity outage today, unlike yesterday. The lights dimmed yesterday but not today. I thank all the secretariat and clerical team who greatly assist this committee. I thank the witnesses, the members and the people who tuned in at home.