Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precinct are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means that a witness has a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at the committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's discretion. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precinct are asked to note they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precinct and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside of the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.

The witnesses are very welcome. On the agenda is farmer mental health and well-being, and we will hear from officials from several representative groups. From Teagasc we are joined by Professor John McNamara and Dr. David Meredith, and from the Irish Farmers Association we are joined by Ms Alice Doyle, Ms Teresa Roche and Claire McGlynn. Tá fáilte romhaibh anseo. Their submissions have been circulated among members and will be taken as read. I shall give each group two minutes to make an opening statement, after which members will have an opportunity to ask questions. The Senators have had to go away to vote but we are expecting to have all the members present in a little while. We will take a group of questions and when the witnesses have taken the opportunity to answer them, we will move on to another group. I call the representatives from the IFA and Teagasc, in that order, to make their opening statements.

Ms Alice Doyle:

Buíochas ón IFA as an gcuireadh inniu. I am joined by the IFA's farm family and social affairs chair, Ms Teresa Roche, and its social affairs policy executive, Ms Claire McGlynn.

Farming is more than an occupation in Ireland. It is a way of life that shapes our rural communities, economy and national identity; however, behind pride, tradition and hard work, there is a growing and pressing concern: the mental health and wellbeing of our farmers. Farmers face unique stressors: financial pressures, market uncertainty, isolation, regulatory complexity, unpredictable weather and the emotional weight of maintaining a family legacy. There is no clocking out and very little room for rest. Despite these challenges, many farmers are slow to seek help. Cultural norms around stoicism, combined with limited access to services in rural areas, mean that emotional distress often goes unspoken and untreated. When we talk about supporting agriculture, we often focus on prices, supports and trade, but the wellbeing of the person behind the gate is just as important. A farmer struggling with stress, anxiety or depression is more at risk of making unsafe decisions, more likely to withdraw socially and less likely to engage with services that could help improve their farm and their life. Good mental health leads to better judgment, stronger relationships and more sustainable farming practices. If we want a healthy farming sector, we need to support healthy farmers. A recent study conducted by University College Dublin has laid bare the extent of this crisis.

Initiatives to raise awareness, train agricultural advisers in mental health literacy and provide better access to rural services are extremely important. However, we now need to move beyond recognition. We need action that is co-ordinated, properly funded and grounded in what farmers themselves are telling us. That begins with treating mental well-being not as an afterthought but as a core part of agricultural sustainability. It means ensuring that services are not only available but also accessible in terms of time, location and cultural fit. It means putting trained counsellors and peer support into the spaces where farmers already go, namely marts, discussion groups, co-ops and farm events. It means integrating psychological education and coping skills into rural training and community outreach programmes. Crucially, it means involving farmers directly in the design and delivery of those supports so nothing feels imposed or out of touch with their lived experience.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will take the rest as read. I want to give the next group an opportunity.

Professor John McNamara:

Good afternoon. I thank the Chair and other members of the committee for giving us the opportunity to address them, particularly on our publication Sowing Seeds of Support: Positive Mental Health Guidance for the Farming Community.

As outlined in our statement of strategy, the Teagasc mission is to promote sustainability in all its forms. We are particularly anxious to assist farmers with health and safety management, including mental health. We use the Total Health model to promote health and safety, which involves health, mental health and injury prevention, which are all interrelated. Our Teagasc trainers and advisers deal with issues such as stress with farmers, including income inadequacy and excessive workload. We also signpost farmers towards health-promoting services and organisations. The Sowing the Seeds of Support leaflet describes health conditions; gives strategies to prevent poor mental health and to manage mental health; gives key contacts with mental health organisations; and is evidence-based. I will hand over to my colleague Dr. Meredith.

Dr. David Meredith:

I am grateful for the opportunity to be here today. I will speak on the research side of things. The research tells us that while it is true that a large number of farmers experience stress, just like all other workers and all other people, this does not mean there is a mental health crisis within agriculture. The research we have conducted highlights that the wellbeing of farmers is generally good and in the latest data we have on this, 9% of farmers out of a sample of over 800 reported poor wellbeing. The other 91% are somewhere in terms of the rest of that spectrum. Mental health challenges are not unique to farming or disproportionately severe in terms of their impact on farmers. As Professor McNamara indicated, Teagasc advocates for targeted policy and strategic responses based on enhancing the resilience of farmers through education, training and advisory services that enable farmers to prevent stress to begin with, and the adoption of knowledge, practices and technologies that are relevant to them and their business. We do this through rigorous research that looks at the best means of providing these services and this education.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Members have had an opportunity to read through the submissions. We will continue as we were earlier. Senator Boyhan is next.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the IFA and Teagasc, and thank Ms Doyle particularly. I read the IFA's submission in detail although Ms Doyle did not have an opportunity to go through it in full. I congratulate Teagasc on the Sowing the Seeds of Support document. It is fantastic. There is clearly an overlap between the submissions of the two groups. We talk about farmers under stress. We did not need the OECD report to confirm what we already know. Those who are related to farmers and others in the agricultural world know what the issues are. We know there is an issue of uncertainty and isolation. There are a lot of complexities. Many farmers through no fault of their own live on their own. There is the burden of inheritance, the responsibility of keeping on the family tradition, not letting the place go to rack and ruin or not letting the place go out of the family, that famous expression. With that comes pressure. I spoke to a man recently who I thought was very lucky to have inherited 100 acres in Wicklow. He said that he was not and that all the rest of his siblings are gone, they have met partners, married and moved on. They have no responsibility. He felt he was left holding the can. He had an elderly mother who is now dead and he is alone, isolated and vulnerable. He feels that he cannot interact and that he really does not have social skills. What does that tell us? That is common. I have family members who are similar. There is no shame in all of that, because the one thing he could do was articulate it, and that is progress.

There is no question inheritance and succession is a big issue. Fears around TB and TB itself are an issue. Taxation and the lack of tax compliance through not knowing or fear of raising their heads above the parapet with Revenue are issues of concern. There are the late payments for ACRES and the Department that reneged on commitments to farmers who had budgeted and expected the money to be paid in good stead. There are the greenways and cutting through farmers' lands. There are the issues around compulsory purchase. I could go on and on. On ACRES advance payments, a farmer told me he had received the advance payments only to have over 50% of them clawed back. Would that not give you nightmares, particularly if you had spent it? You are in real trouble then. We need good mental health for our farmers and for everybody. It impacts on our judgment and how we live and do our business. Just as we want for everybody else, we want our farmers to have the potential to be themselves, to be authentic, happy and content and to do the work they love on the land.

The IFA and Teagasc to a lesser extent receive Government funding but I do not know how much they receive. I do not know how it is applied. The witnesses might share with me what the funding is, how it is distributed and whether they need more.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank both organisations for coming in. The first thing we need to recognise is that seeing somebody now in the daytime is an unusual thing for a farmer. Farmers see no one from one end of the day to the other. They are on their own a lot of the time. Everyone has to try to get a speak here. I will ask a few straightforward questions. The IFA and other farming organisations would be in with the Department for the rights charter, say. Is there a section in that charter on mental health and wellbeing? If not, how was that never included for the farmers? Teagasc gets a good bit of Government funding. Has it a section that helps or deals with farmers who have mental health issues? We are looking at the genetics of cows and how to make a better calf and do everything but the person who produces all this food is the person no one seems to look at. What has Teagasc done on that?

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome Teagasc and the IFA. I am a client of Teagasc and a member of the IFA. For those of us who are neither, how do we get to those organisations? They are both doing great work and providing great information for their membership and clients. The vulnerable person out there is most likely someone who is not a member of an organisation, not going to IFA meetings and will not be a client of Teagasc. How do the witnesses propose we get to the people who are not engaging? The person who has the issue, who will need to engage, is the very one who is not going to engage. How do we get to the people who are not members, clients or whatever?

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I concur with what all my colleagues have said. Stress seems to me to be number one, as a farmer myself. People have mentioned late payments. It is the anguish of the whole thing and the pressures that banks and co-ops have put on. A farmer will pay his bills when he gets his money, no problem at all. The problem is when he does not have that money to pay the bills yet he has to buy fertiliser and feed and look after his stock. The loneliness at night time in the winter months, when he is inside in the house looking out or when it is raining and one thing after another. There is a whole aspect there that is missing.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a range of questions there.

Professor John McNamara:

I will answer briefly and then hand over to my colleague. Senator Boyhan asked about the funding we get. I do not have the exact funding offhand. It is in our annual report, which is laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. The funding is there. We have approximately 385 advisers in round figures. The focus of what we are doing is to maximise the contact between farmers and to target people towards mental health services.

Our role is to focus farmers in the right direction.

The question on the charter of rights is something I will bring back to our senior management. We were asked what service we have. We mentioned On Feirm Ground in our statement. We are training up advisers. The Departments of Health and agriculture provide funding to assist farmers. We are integrating our service into advisory work.

Senator Daly made a point about the hard-to-reach. About a third of farmers are clients of Teagasc, a third are clients of private consultants and a third are not in contact with anyone. Consultants are involved in On Feirm Ground as well, so we are seeking to maximise the reach. Farmers are self-employed and run their own affairs. We seek to encourage them through communications and events to come to talk to us. We are always trying to increase our numbers.

Senator Brady mentioned the stress on farmers. I will hand over to my colleague on that matter.

Dr. David Meredith:

I will pick up on a couple of issues and link one or two questions and statements that were made.

Senator Boyhan mentioned the issue of TB as a key stressor, and Senator Daly asked a question about how we access farmers and hard-to-reach farmers outside of the representative organisations and Teagasc services. This is where engaging with others becomes very important. It is about involving vets in training programmes involving inspectors who are going out, from a range of different organisations, not just the Department, to work on farms with farmers to provide them with the skills and enable them to develop those skills through On Feirm Ground.

Deputy Fitzmaurice asked whether there is a dedicated section within Teagasc working in this area. We have developed a dedicated research strand within the rural economy programme. I am the head of department for the agrifood business and spatial analysis unit. We have a dedicated research section within that, which comprises a number of researchers working on this issue. We collaborate very closely with our advisory and education colleagues in order to integrate the services we are developing into the day-to-day interactions we have with farmers. That is really important. We do not want to single out people or stigmatise mental health in any way. We want to integrate the supports we are providing into our day-to-day contacts with farmers.

Mrs. Alice Doyle:

My colleagues will answer some of the questions. I will take the first one, which came from Deputy Fitzmaurice, on the farmers' rights charter. I was not in on the drawing-up of that but I have read it numerous times. While I cannot say definitively there is anything about mental health in it or not, I can tell him that it obviously is not very clear in it because it is not coming to my mind at this point and if it were clear, it would be there. Having said that, a lot of the time, when we were trying to draw up the different conditions and terms within the charter, we looked at - I suppose covertly - how the Department pays us, the long time it takes to pay us and the stress that causes on farms. I am afraid we did not get much of a reaction on that. It is still a period fo 14 days for us to respond, but a lot longer for the Department to respond if there is an issue.

My colleague Ms McGlynn will take the question from Senator Boyhan on funding.

Ms Claire McGlynn:

Last year, the IFA ran a successful farmer health check project, as members are all aware, in partnership with Croí and funded by the Department of agriculture. We thank the Department for this funding. We received €210,000 to carry out 1,000 health checks for last year's project. We carried this out very successfully. There was a huge uptake from farmers on the ground. We went back to the Department this year and have been funded with €250,000 for 2,000 health checks, which is doubling the scale of the project for this year. We committed to doing something different with our project. We wanted to meet farmers on the ground. We wanted to go to somewhere where they felt comfortable and where they felt they could engage with us. We set up in various marts throughout the country. This was not just for convenience. It was to meet the farmers there, so they felt comfortable, and where there was respect and trust between us as the IFA and Croí as the nurses.

If we want to continue to reach vulnerable people and vulnerable farmers in these areas, something that we need to consider is whether funding is available to continue this project on a yearly basis. We have met these people on the ground. The recommendations and feedback from farmers have been exceptionally good. We have had a huge uptake. The IFA is very proud to have achieved such a successful project last year. We really look forward to carrying out this project again in the coming weeks.

Mrs. Alice Doyle:

Ms Roche, who is chair of the IFA farm family committee, will take the question on-----

Mrs. Alice Doyle:

-----isolation and on how we got to these vulnerable people.

Ms Teresa Roche:

Our project has shown and identified that one of our most vulnerable sectors is agriculture. We have to accept and highlight that the mental health and well-being of our farmers is a priority in agriculture. For this most vulnerable sector, and the needs and challenges that farmers face, our project for the farmer health check programme highlighted at least 23 red flags that showed the challenges farmers face each day. These challenges can be anything from TB, which the Senator mentioned, and disease on farms, domestic issues, a lack of succession planning, accidents, illnesses that occur due to farm accidents and fatalities on farms, down to well-being issues. Those in this vulnerable sector are often the ones who do not access the services. We wanted to change behaviours and attitudes with our farmer health check programme. If you can change the behaviours and attitudes of farmers and families - this is open to men, women and their young adults - people can access this service in the most rural communities.

As Ms McGlynn mentioned, we met people in the most isolated communities. We want to bring the services to them, so we can reach their needs. We are coming to them. We are offering a professional service and a full health check. We are all about preventative care and making people aware of their health, well-being and mental health. If we can improve their health and well-being, and their mental health, they will make better decisions on their farm, including better financial decisions and safer decisions on their farm through farm safety, and they will make a better income overall. Their farms will be productive in the long term. We want to show that farmers are very vulnerable to environmental factors. We can talk about storms and different issues on the ground that make us vulnerable. We have to protect our farming community overall.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will take the next group of four.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the representatives for their opening submissions. One thing that always strikes me-----

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The group is Deputies Kenny, Aird, Cooney and Newsome Drennan for the next four questions, in that order.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One thing that always strikes me about agriculture and farming is we have this model within it where, for instance, there is social farming, whereby we bring people who have got mental health issues or are service users with intellectual disabilities out to a farm and out to nature, with animals and all of that, which is really positive for their mental health. Yet, we have this sort of contradiction within that whereby we have a crisis, or the elements of a crisis, for many people within the agricultural community who feel that farming is something that has negatively affected their mental health. I have often concluded, when looking at all of this, that it is really the aspect of trying to run the farm as a business that has the negative impact on farmers' mental health. It is the pressures of not being able to earn the kind of money they need to be able to earn, or the pressures of possibly a neighbour's farm going down with TB and "Am I next?" It is all of that that causes the pressure. The actual farming itself is very positive and very good for people's mental health because they are in nature. There is no clock to clock in and clock out. There are not the same pressures you have in other aspects of earning a living.

We need to recognise that there is a very positive element to it as well. Something I recognise and often is not talked about is the use or misuse of substances by farmers because of the stresses of all of that. Many farmers drink too much. Many farmers go on the bottle in the evening when they are home alone in order to quell the loneliness. Certainly within younger farmers there is a culture of substance misuse. The use of cocaine and all of these substances is rampant throughout the whole of our society and the agriculture sector and people who are involved in farming are not immune to it either. What research or what element have we looked at in the context of all of that and the impact it has on mental health?

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome John, David, Alice, Teresa and Claire. I do not have a question for the IFA from the point of view of what it does because it does great work and if it was not for the IFA we would be in a lot poorer place than we are in at the moment. The IFA has monthly meetings and engages with farmers to try to encourage them to go in and we did the same in Macra. I started off in Macra and twice per year we went out with lists and knocked on doors. People did not have to be farmers. We were always trying to recruit people. Things like that were very positive.

There are different issues that affect farmers out there and it will always be either the price or the weather, what is going well or what is going badly. The first thing I would always do during an engagement, whether it be with John or Mary, is to say to them the glass is half full. It is very difficult to do but we have to look at what happened and the history. Going back years when I was a little fella going to mass with my father, the marts were full. There was none of the hysteria of cattle tracing and everything. TB is worse today than it was then. With all the rules and regulations that came in, never mind statistics, I always ask the Department how many people exit when it brings in a new rule. Look at the statistics and there lies the problem. A cohort of farmers are robust and when the Department comes in, they do not give two hoots about it. If the Department does something, the farmers will stand up to the Department and take it on. However, many farmers roll over because they are quiet, honourable and decent people. I am telling you; there lies the problem. I have been a councillor since I was 18 years of age and of every farmer I have spoken to, when you drill down it always goes back to being terrified of the Department. A farmer gets a letter with the harp on it and the inspector goes into his or her yard with a green coat, spotless with the harp on it. It terrifies a lot of farmers. I want to say this because I believe in my heart that if we do not protect the vulnerable people out there, we will lose them. We have to surround them. I have done so, as have the witnesses, the IFA and Macra.

I had an inspection approximately ten years ago. I would be robust enough. We finished up in the milking parlour. There was the inspector, myself and my dog. The inspector turned to me with his chart and told me I had a problem because the dog was not meant to be in the milking parlour. I told him he was wrong because it was a bitch. I told him the dog's name was Floss. I said to him, "You tell Floss not to be in the parlour." The inspector closed the chart and walked out through the door. Other people would have rolled over for that inspector.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy needs to give the witnesses a chance to answer. Deputy Cooney is next.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for coming in and compliment them on the fantastic work they do. We know farmers are self-employed. When one is self-employed, there is a lot of pressure. What needs to be looked at to help farmers and to help with their mental health issues is to simplify issues for farmers instead of complicating them. I do not know what influence the witnesses can have on this or how much they can do but that is what they should try to preach because that is important. We know farmers have enough to do without having to do all the paperwork as well. Red tape and criteria are getting a lot of farmers down. Another issue is payments being made on time. We are all well aware of the costs in farming nowadays. Farmers are self-employed and payments do not go in too often but it would help if payments were on time. Today, a farmer contacted me who is in his second year of waiting for ACRES payments and still has not received any. If issues such as this could be dealt with and sorted, it would help farmers' mental health in a major way. I thank the witnesses for coming today.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for coming. The figure of one in four people being at risk of suicide is an alarming one. I can see how it happens. I have a farm at home and without Teagasc in Mullinavat most people would not have their paperwork done. For the older farmers it all just came in and was another headache. It was a headache they did not need. On a farm, one is isolated. There are financial worries. The costs of diesel, food and everything have increased and everything is a worry. As Deputy Kenny said, being on a farm is therapeutic. We all go down to the farm for a rest from everyday life but that can bring you down. Even though there is a TB helpline for ACRES, we need better helplines for people who have a problem so they can be calmed down and work through the problems. It might just be something as small as a helpline that will put people's minds at ease.

In regard to the health checks operated by Croí, how did farmers react to them? I can imagine there are many farmers who do not call on the phone. They may be kind of stand-offish and say they do not have a problem and there is nothing wrong with them. How do we get more of those farmers to engage? Is there another way to target them by not calling it a "health check"? Can we engage with them in some other way so that they do not actually realise they are having this conversation? It is the farmers who are not picking up the phone who are the worry.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy. Who will field those questions?

Dr. David Meredith:

I thank the Deputy. Deputy Kenny highlighted a really interesting aspect to farming. On the one side, we see farming very positively but on the other side, it presents people with serious uncertainty. It is the uncertainty that causes the stress. Farmers are very good at managing what they know, their business and their stock but when we have uncertainty around things such as the weather and finances, these things can combine very quickly to cause fairly serious levels of stress. That is why, with Teagasc, we are very focused on preventing those situations arising. We are focused on identifying practical measures that could be put in place to help farmers to avoid situations where they get into financial difficulty.

The issue raised by Deputy Cooney, which was farmers being self-employed, is really important because for the self-employed, access to social protection and healthcare can be very challenging. Improving access to social protection and healthcare can dramatically increase the health and well-being of farmers. We know this by looking at other countries where that has been put in place, such as France, Germany, Austria and so on. Within that, I include child and elder care. These are very important issues for farm households as well.

Deputy Newsome Drennan asked how we will get farmers to engage. Teagasc ran the "Farmers have Hearts" programme which was a precursor to some of the work the IFA has been leading on during the past few years. That comes down to boots on the ground and people who are nurses being in a position to look at somebody and say that person is very flushed and is displaying symptoms that would indicate he or she needs a health check.

It was all about that personal interaction. That is important. It is great to see that there is continued support for that programme.

Professor John McNamara:

I might add briefly to Dr. Meredith's comments. Deputy Kenny asked about substance use. I am involved in a farm mental health project in UCD. It has come up with figures for substance use and alcohol use. It is low, but excessive use is seen in a small minority. Farmers love being farmers and I agree it is the business aspect of farming that tends to lead to the issues.

Moving on to Deputy Aird, I am delighted to hear that the glass is half full. Teagasc puts a lot of resources into supporting farmers on this and drawing down the maximum amount of funds. Recently, we established a specialised unit to deal with schemes. We are in constant dialogue with the Department of agriculture to make schemes more simplified and straightforward. Deputy Cooney made the same point about simplification.

Regarding Deputy Newsome Drennan's point, one in four is an alarming figure. As I understand it, it is a study of 256 people on social media. If you read the study, on page 4 it talks about the representativity of the study. I wanted to make those points.

Ms Alice Doyle:

I will give a combined answer for all the members, while Ms Roche will take the specific question around substance abuse on farms, etc. On the first issue, the common thread is the great way of life it is on a farm. It is a great way of life if you can make an income but, unfortunately, the problem, as all the members have identified, is all the stressors resulting from not being able to make an income. The main cause for not having that income, which most of the farmers would identify, is the burden of regulation forcing them to have huge input costs, which reduces their income at the end of the day. Until we can reach some stage of simplification to reduce that burden on farmers, it is going to be very difficult for farmers to make an income. All the signs coming from the EU are not looking good on simplification for Irish farmers because we are not big farmers but we are a little bit bigger than the average European farmers when it comes to simplification. That is a huge burden for us, looking down the way.

In regard to the irregular hours that farmers have, we can clock in and clock out, but we rarely clock out. That is the problem. Darragh McCullough had a good article this week in the Irish Independent. I do not always agree with him but this week he had a good article. He stated that the average farmer is very lucky if he or she can get 34 days a year off, out of 365 days, and that includes Sundays, whereas the average worker gets 163 days a year off. That highlights the burden of being tied to the farm. We can take a little time off but we cannot afford to take it off, and that is the problem.

The delayed payments are a huge issue. That is again a common thread among all the members. I would throw it back to them and ask them, as Members, to put immense pressure on the Minister of agriculture and the Department in particular, so that when they are designing any more schemes, they ensure they are designed with the farmer in mind, with an income for the farmer, not bureaucracy and not designed on a laptop that has no relation to day-to-day living on the farm. If the committee could take back that message alone, it would be a great message to take back from us as farmers.

In regard to social farming, no doubt Deputy Newsome Drennan is aware there is a very good social farmer close to where she lives. We have visited his farm on numerous occasions and it is a wonderful place to go to. We bring people with special needs there to give them relief. By going to visit his farm as an active farmer, I actually got a little bit of relief myself to see the way he looks after his clients. I wish to God we could do the same for all our farmers.

Ms Roche will take the question on substance abuse.

Ms Teresa Roche:

Substance abuse is probably one of the main issues we hear about. Our farmer health check programme has highlighted the need for the most vulnerable group, as we have talked about, in agriculture. The programme is delivered by professional nurses from Croí. We were able to highlight any needs relating to substance abuse, whether alcohol or drugs, or domestic violence. We do a full mental health and well-being assessment as part of our criteria. We have a consent form and then a mental health assessment. In our assessment we are able to acknowledge any issues that are brought up. We have a referral service regarding any needs required by the individual and we follow them up within a month. We often follow them up twice or three times. It is not just a health check but a whole well-being check of the farmer. That goes for women as well.

I am also chair of the health and vulnerable group for the Health and Safety Authority. We are able to highlight women's health in agriculture in that. Teagasc also deals with this, and Dr. Meredith will be able to bring this forward. We are partners also with Teagasc in the context of Coping with the Pressures of Farming. This is something that Teagasc has worked on very closely with the IFA. We modeled our farmer health check programme in partnership with the HSE and Teagasc. Everything is set up so that we are not working in silo but in partnership with other organisations that are all working in the best interest of the most vulnerable people.

We cannot forget the young farmers out there. As was mentioned, this is a major issue. We want to be able to say that we are open to discussion on gambling, drug abuse and domestic violence. These farmer health check programmes need to be extended further. We need an umbrella resource or a Department working in partnership with all the other multisectors and stakeholders in place so that we can give the best services through counselling and well-being support, all under one umbrella. Funding just coming into one situation is not enough. We do not have access to enough services. People are coming forward and telling us their issues but it is all about us identifying the issues through changing behaviours and attitudes. We are meeting and acknowledging them and doing our best under the funding we have been given but we know there is a major issue out there. We are acknowledging it and we want the support of the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Healy-Rae, who has been a great support to farm safety. This is his portfolio and he is very interested in working with us on this.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am conscious that a vote has been called in the Dáil. It does not need to interfere with proceedings here if we get a Senator to run the remainder of the meeting. I will take a proposal from a Senator to take the Chair. There are ten or 15 minutes remaining and Senator Collins and Deputy Healy-Rae have not had an opportunity yet. Does Deputy Healy-Rae want to speak now before the Dáil vote?

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will speak now. How long have I got? Two minutes, that is grand. I am sorry I was not here for the start of the presentation. I welcome the witnesses and thank them for coming in. It is important to have this interaction on behalf of farmers.

I resent that an assertion was made that farmers were drinking too much at home and that was a big problem. I do not accept that they drink any more than people in any other sector. I am a publican myself and have been doing the bar for almost 50 years. I cannot say that farmers have more mind for drink than any other sector of the community. It is a bit unfair and we need to clarify that. I do not give into that. I very much resent the fact that Shane Ross housed many farmers for good because they cannot come and have the two or three pints that they used to have. I fought hard for them so that they could drink and drive on local roads and not on regional or primary roads. Sadly, that did not happen but I stand over that. Many things have been said here about farm payments. We have been here for the past three weeks asking Ministers and different people to do something about the ACRES payments. We still read today that 1,500 farmers have not received their ACRES payment for last year. As a committee, we should write to the Ministers and the Government involved and ask them please to pay these people half their money now and then sort out the difference after. There are people in a bad way, with 1,500 families waiting for their money. I am asking for support from the rest of the committee for that.

Farmers work on their own and that is the one thing against them. Many have stayed at home rather than coming out at all since Covid. The group of people I am talking about is aged 60 to 75 and they are very isolated. I feel very much for them. Teagasc is doing great work, and we need to do more for those people to ensure that they stay. They are very worried when they get a letter about not complying with rules and regulations. The Departments must do their job and be more approachable and treat the farmers better. If farmers are not there, and a lot of them are disappearing because the young fellas are not taking it on, towns and villages will suffer as well.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Before I leave, I have one very quick question. I am glad the witnesses mentioned marts and using the mart as an opportunity and a platform. Many people are farming on their own. They come together from time to time with a discussion group or a farm walk. Is there a way of using those farm walks to engage with people to make sure they are made aware of the different services that are available? I will hand over to Senator Collins.

Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Cathaoirleach. He stole my line. It is great to hear about our witnesses meeting the farmers at the marts. Farmers are very sociable and the social side of it is a lot of what helps that helps them. I had a farmer on to me last week. He has a quad bike and he had an inspection on his farm. He got a bit of a grilling saying he had to have a licence and had to do a course. He was very worried about this, and questioning how and where he was going to do it. I am sure Teagasc does this already, but is there a way for farmers to engage in training at the marts where they are comfortable in their own environment and not on their own? Some farmers are straight down the line. For them, everything has to be according to the way it should be and others are a little bit more lax. One person might not need that but the neighbour is under stress and pressure thinking about it.

Second, the filling out of forms seems to be a big issue that really burdens farmers. We have mygov.ie and welfare.ie. Why not have a farm.ie where everything is online? Many farmers might be in the older age group and not up to speed on technology, but they have sons and daughters and nieces and nephews or a neighbour who might be able to help. Could there be an organisation they could go to where they could go to get these forms done? If we could streamline these services it would take a little pressure off and farmers could go out and enjoy farming and not have to worry about all of this in the background.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will allow the remaining two members for two minutes each and our witnesses can answer everything in a wrap-up.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will follow up on what Ms Roche said about the IFA. If she does not have time here, she might furnish the committee with the information. She raised the issue of health checks and funding going up from €210,000 to €250,000, she might correct me if I am wrong, for this year. Ms Roche stated there were 23 red flags. She might send those on to us, as those are very important. What quantitative research has been done? We need value for money too. I am in the business of cutting money but that is a lot of bucks, and we need to be sure they are being used in the right way. We are following the cases Ms Roche identified, which are critically interesting, including the 23 red flags. I would like to get a better handle on them, so she might furnish them to the committee.

Finally, last year the IFA held an event in the Fermoy mart, and I went down with a group of people as part of the green ribbon campaign. I ask the IFA and Teagasc to get behind that too. When we handed out hundreds of green ribbons, people looked at them and asked why they would want them. I told them they were for mental health awareness. There was a platform and big promotion outside it. It is an amazing mart. The witnesses will be familiar with the new one. Most of the people we met said they do not have mental health problems. I did not say they had, but there is a lot of denial involved. Eventually they would take the flag and stick it in their pocket. They were not even sure what they were talking about and wondered whether the flag could identify them in a certain way.

There is real potential for the IFA to partner with the existing campaign, not to recreate it. That means IFA members, us, farmers, everybody wearing the green ribbon and identifying with it. It is very strongly promoted in the Houses of the Oireachtas. I ask that the witnesses reach out to the people involved, because that could be a big, bold initiative. It just needs to be expanded.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree with Senator Boyhan about the ribbon. If farmers have a tractor run, they get a little sticker to put in the cab.. If every farmer could get even that sticker to put up on their tractor, the same as tax and insurance discs, that sticker symbolises what Senator Boyhan highlighted. It is about visibility when a person gets up on the tractor. There should be a helpline number on that sticker that is on the tractor, and it should be sent out with insurance every year. When a farmer insures his or her tractor, it should be part of the certificate that is sent through the insurance companies. When a person sticks up the insurance disc, he or she can stick it up. If he or she has a sticker up, so be it.

I wish to through a couple of issues very quickly. The biggest event in the calendar of farmers, the national ploughing championships, is about to take place. Has the IFA a stand that is actually going to take farmers blood pressure and have a dedicated group of people to talk to them? Has the IFA supports in place at the ploughing championships to ensure that when he or she comes in the gate, every farmer needs to get his or her health checked? Is there going to be huge visibility around this and has the IFA the supports in place?

The media has an awful impact on farmers’ mental health. This week a headline in one of the newspapers stated that that farmers could face jail regarding not appointing a supervisor when rebuilding their sheds. That headline in itself puts fear on top of the anxiety already there after losing a shed in the storm. Media play a role in the fear factor in this.

The third question I have is about the new TB help forum. As part of the new TB task force, the Department said it is going to set up a helpline. Has Teagasc engaged with the Department regarding this helpline? Has it had an input into it? It is very important that all stakeholders should have an input into this.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There were a number of questions there. We will have a final wrap-up because we are conscious of the fact we have another item to do and we have to be out of this room before 6 p.m.

Professor John McNamara:

Deputy Healy-Rae is a publican. What he sees is what our research is showing, which is that farmers are low alcohol and substance users on average. Farmers are working in isolation. Excellent research has been done in the University of Galway regarding older farmers and meeting at marts. We are looking at ways to progress that work.

Senator Collins talked about ATVs. There is competency-based training, based on QQI. There are numerous providers available. On filling out forms, there is a farm advisory service, with 800 advisers helping farmers personally to get them done..

We are aware of the green ribbon campaign and we have supported it previously. We will certainly do it. Deputy Brady's point about a sticker is a follow-on from our leaflet. We would absolutely be happy to go with that.

Regarding communications, we seek to help farmers to comply with relevant regulations. We never in any way wish to be alarmist from a Teagasc point of view.

Dr. David Meredith:

Senator Collins made the point about improving accessibility to services or training, and that is really at the heart of a lot of what we are trying to do in terms of going to where the farmer is. It is about not putting any barriers or burdens in the way in addition to everything else farmers are trying to get on with.

Senator Brady mentioned the TB helpline.

I cannot respond directly to it, but what I can say is that I and a number of colleagues within Teagasc have been working on looking at the human impact of TB. We are focusing in on how the inspection process works and the stresses that can bring into it. We are trying to identify ways of improving the communication skills of the various different people involved in that in order to provide farmers with the right knowledge at the right time and to take some of the uncertainty and stress out of this. We have an ongoing project in that area called COM TB, which is funded by the Department of agriculture, and we will have finished that up by the end of the year.

Ms Alice Doyle:

We will take a different issue each. On the first one, which I think Senator Brady mentioned, about partnership with other bodies, we partner with many other bodies all the time to try to get the work done. We have partnered with See Change on the green ribbon for years. We did it for 12 consecutive years. We did walks every year in the months of July, August and September, which we called the green ribbon walks. We have promoted that for a long time. We have people who sit on the RSA, so we work around the farm safety and how that links in with mental health and well-being. I think the committee spoke to some of the members earlier today. We deal with the HSE from time to time, when we make referrals and so on. We deal with Teagasc on an ongoing basis, with Professor McNamara and Dr. Meredith. We have dealt with Professor McNamara on numerous occasions.

From an interesting point of view, the green ribbon was mentioned and tractor drives. Wexford, three weeks ago, had a green ribbon tractor drive across Mount Leinster, rising at dawn. It was similar to the walk into light. We drove into light, leaving Ballindaggin, driving across Mount Leinster and back to Ballindaggin. Every tractor had a green ribbon on it, and there was a social event afterwards. We have started the trend within IFA of having a tractor drive with green ribbons. I assure members we are in the space already.

Ms Roche will deal with Senator Collins’s question about quads and quad training. She has been involved somewhat around that. She might like to take a number of other issues that have come up.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The qualitative research.

Ms Alice Doyle:

She will deal with all that.

Ms Claire McGlynn:

I can take the comment on the qualitative data. As part of our project, we wanted to come out at the end of it with statistics and figures to show how beneficial this was over the course of the project. I have a few statistics here that I can share. Some 41% of the participants had elevated blood pressures; 39% of the participants had not had their blood pressure checked in more than a year; and 2% stated that they have never had their blood pressure checked, which is a stark figure. Some 4.4% then required immediate medical attention. That requires the Croí nurses to send them directly to their local GP if they could get in or, if not, it was straight to the local hospital. Those were stark figures on our end. There were elevated blood pressure levels on the day when we spoke to the farmers on the ground. They were not aware that they had these underlying issues, so it was very important to have them there on the day. It was easy access for them to get that service. The importance of that project was that we had a follow-up on this. The nurses followed up with our participants three to four weeks after they had their checks. They made sure that the participant followed up with their doctor and there was this check. That is a very important part of our project and we want that to continue so that they get the full importance out of this check.

Following on from that, we had the mental health assessment. There was a comment on how we get these vulnerable people to come into us to have a health check. To be honest, we did not have that issue. We had a huge demand for this service from day one. We had many different scenarios where wives were encouraging farmers - their husbands - to get in the queue. When they got into the queue, we had the consent form and the mental health questionnaire was part of their consent form. They were in the queue for their physical health check, which was their cholesterol and blood pressure check but, along with that, was their mental health assessment. That is where they felt comfortable in opening up and having that conversation with us, who were there are on the ground, and the farm family committee was there to help us. Some of the figures out of that are we had 58% of farmers who never or rarely felt relaxed; 49% never or rarely felt confident in themselves; and 46% never or rarely felt optimistic about the future. Those are figures we have taken from our project and we plan to build on this further as we progress this project throughout the year ahead. Those are the figures we have about that.

On ploughing, we will be there in full force at the ploughing championship this year. We were there last year. It was actually our first event last year of the start of the project. We completed more than 350 checks during the course of the ploughing. We will be in full force again this year and we are looking forward to starting the project.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank all for their contributions. It has been a wide-ranging discussion and we probed into many of the issues. Táimid an-bhuíoch díbh as an bplé a bhí againn agus as an eolas ar fad a chuir sibh ar fáil. Beidh an coiste ag breathnú air arís níos déanaí.

I thank everyone for their contributions. We will now suspend the meeting to give an opportunity to move to the next stage of the meeting, the scrutiny of the COM.