Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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We have received apologies from Deputy Shay Brennan and Senator Alice-Mary Higgins. I advise members of the constitutional requirements that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore a member who intends to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via Microsoft Teams, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, to confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Today, the joint committee is engaging with An Taoiseach. In this context, I welcome the Taoiseach, Micheál Martin, and his officials. The committee has decided to hold this engagement following consideration of the Revised Estimates to discuss more broadly areas under the aegis of the Department of the Taoiseach. Members have indicated their interest in matters including the impact on Ireland of trade negotiations between the EU and the United States, the invasion of Ukraine, the genocide in Gaza, budgetary policy and the shared operation of the shared island and child poverty units in the Department of the Taoiseach.

I invite the Taoiseach to make his opening statement.

The Taoiseach:

Gabhaim buíochas le Cathaoirleach agus comhaltaí an chomhchoiste as an deis seo teacht os a gcomhair chun míreanna atá faoi chúram Roinn an Taoisigh a phlé. Léiríonn tosaíochtaí Roinn an Taoisigh ról lárnach na Roinne maidir leis an obair ar fud an Rialtais chun gealltanais an chlár Rialtais a chur i bhfeidhm, atá mar bhonn faoi gheilleagar inbhuanaithe, sochaí rathúil agus leasanna na tíre seo thar lear.

I thank the Chair and committee for the opportunity to appear before the joint committee to discuss items within the remit of the Department of the Taoiseach. The priorities of the Department of the Taoiseach reflect the central role of the Department in working across Government to implement programme for Government commitments, underpinning a sustainable economy, a successful society and the pursuit of this country's interests abroad. Both our economy and society have shown remarkable resilience in recent years despite what might seem like never-ending challenges. We have enjoyed a period of strong growth, with exceptional economic performance and job creation. Just under 2.8 million people are at work.

We now find ourselves again at a time of considerable uncertainty. As a small open economy, there are many risks outside of our control. International decisions on trade policy will potentially harm our economy and those of our main exporter partners, both directly and indirectly. The European Commission is fully engaged in discussions with the United States. A negotiated solution is clearly the goal and preferred outcome, and we will do what we can to support this. We remain hopeful that harmful and destructive steps can be avoided but we must also actively prepare if that is not to be the case.

Well-considered policy, allied to the efficient delivery of investments and services, can provide a predictable and reliable response to international developments. From the Government's perspective, our policy response must focus on controlling the controllables and ensuring we maintain our relative competitiveness while also delivering investment in future productivity and, with it, prosperity. A new Government action plan on competitiveness and productivity will be published shortly to ensure that this is a central focus of our efforts. This plan will cover industrial policy, reducing the cost and regulatory burden on business, investing in infrastructure, digital regulation and reform, energy reform, international trade, and research and development and innovation.

In the coming years, we will continue to make significant investment in our infrastructure and in energy and skills required to ensure our future competitiveness and productivity. The housing and infrastructure unit in the Department of the Taoiseach supports the work of the Government to develop, deliver and implement policies and programmes relating to housing and infrastructure. The Government is committed to increasing the supply of housing and the availability and affordability of homes. This is our number one social and economic issue.

A record level of investment has been provided for the delivery of housing in 2025, with overall capital funding of €6.5 billion available, which will increase, supplemented by a further €1.65 billion in current funding to address housing needs. However, we know that we need to do more to meet the demands of our citizens over the coming years. That is why we are putting in train fundamental changes and measures which will give us a sustainable housing system in the future. We have already taken many important decisions which will bring about fundamental change. These include expanding the remit of the Land Development Agency, regulating short-term lets, planning reform such as the establishment of An Coimisiún Pleanála, extending expiring planning permissions, reforming rent pressure zones, and establishing the new housing activation office. All of these measures and more demonstrate our determination to act with urgency, to make difficult decisions and to drive the reforms that are essential. More will come as we finalise the national development plan and the new housing plan, which will set the pathway for housing delivery over the lifetime of this Government.

Supported by the Department of the Taoiseach, the Cabinet committee on infrastructure oversees our programme for Government commitments relating to infrastructure delivery. Its work reflects the importance that Government is placing on this issue. It also has a role in overseeing the review of the national development plan, NDP. Delays in infrastructure delivery directly impact our ability to attract investment and to meet our housing targets. This is why we are prioritising addressing these issues. We need to provide services at scale, such as energy, water and transport, to meet the growing needs of our citizens and support our national competitiveness. These areas are front and centre in our priorities as we review the NDP.

Ireland is experiencing first-hand the growing impacts of climate change. More intense storms, floods, prolonged dry spells and unpredictable weather patterns are becoming the new normal. These changes to our climate system threaten our citizens, businesses, homes and way of life. Supported by the Department of the Taoiseach, the Cabinet committee on climate action, environment and energy oversees implementation of programme for Government commitments relating to the environment, climate action, energy and emergency planning. It considers the wide range of issues that require action in Ireland's transition to a low-carbon, climate-resilient and sustainable future, in which we will take full advantage of the renewable energy potential that we possess. It also oversees implementation of the climate action plan. The first climate action plan of this Government was approved in April. Officials across the system are already working on the new climate action plan for 2026, which is the next iteration of the climate action plan. That must now focus on meaningful actions and accelerated delivery to help to close the emissions gap that has been identified.

The Government will continue to ensure that Ireland plays a full and effective role in all aspects of the European Union, both promoting and protecting our national interests while contributing to progress and prosperity across the Union. This includes a focus on the Single Market and the trading relationships that underpin continued economic prosperity, while continuing our constructive and ambitious engagement in European and international affairs more broadly in support of the international rules-based order. I will advance this work through my participation in meetings of the European Council, as well as my bilateral meetings with fellow leaders and my direct engagement with the presidents of the European Union institutions.

It is now just under one year from the beginning of Ireland's six-month Presidency of the Council of the European Union on 1 July 2026. This is our eighth time assuming the Presidency. The strength of our political commitment and the resourcing of delivering a successful EU Presidency next year is fully reflected in the programme for Government, as it is essential for Ireland's position, influence and reputation in the European Union and for advancing the Union's agenda against a complex geopolitical background. The Department of the Taoiseach is contributing to whole-of-government preparations for the Presidency, in close consultation with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, which is co-ordinating work across the Government. The priorities for Ireland's Presidency will be developed over the period ahead in consultation with stakeholders here in Ireland and with our European Union partners. They will reflect the work that is needed to address the common challenges that we face across the Union.

The Government is working extensively to support the successful functioning of all institutions of the Good Friday Agreement and for reconciliation of the different communities and traditions of this island. The summit meeting of the British-Irish Council and a plenary meeting of the North-South Ministerial Council were held in Northern Ireland last month. I will host the next plenary meeting of the North-South Ministerial Council in October. The first in a series of annual United Kingdom-Ireland summits was held on 6 March, in Liverpool. At the summit, Prime Minister Starmer and I agreed a wide-ranging programme of new and enhanced strategic co-operation between Ireland and the United Kingdom, to be taken forward by both Governments through 2030. In April, I launched a new phase of the shared island initiative, setting out the Government's ambitious agenda for building a shared island, backed by our commitment of a further €1 billion to the shared island fund to 2035, to foster reconciliation, mutual respect and growth. Already, in February, the Government announced over €50 million in allocations from the fund to deliver a range of new all-island programmes, including in sustainable tourism, arts and cultural heritage, civil society co-operation, and community-led nature restoration. I have asked all Government Ministers to bring forward further new shared island project proposals to contribute to implementing our commitment to more strategic all-island investment and co-operation over the next five years.

We are also continuing the wide-ranging research and dialogue programmes that inform the shared island initiative. Through our expanded and strengthened shared island initiative, the Government is bringing co-operation and relationships across the island of Ireland to a new level.

I will update the committee on the work of the child poverty and well-being programme office in the Department of the Taoiseach. This is an important initiative that works to prioritise action across government in areas that will have the greatest impact for children and families experiencing poverty. Tackling child poverty remains a priority for the Government and this is reflected in the programme for Government commitments to explore a targeted child benefit payment and to set an ambitious target to reduce child poverty. Significant progress has been made in recent years on combating child poverty and promoting children’s well-being. Budget 2025 saw the largest ever increase in the weekly child support payment. Measures such as free school meals for all primary schools and free school books are making a difference to children in poverty. Expanded access to early years and the launch of Equal Start is also making an impact. The Government’s ambition is that budget 2026 will build on previous budgets to ensure that the most disadvantaged children and families are prioritised in new spending measures. In the programme for Government, we said that child poverty is not inevitable. I am determined to turn that commitment into actions that will transform lives.

Finally, I would like to turn to disability. This Government is firmly committed to advancing the rights and improving the lives of disabled people. Reflecting this, and to ensure sustained progress on disability issues, I have established a stand-alone Cabinet committee on disability, supported by a new disability unit in my Department. The Cabinet committee will oversee cross-government efforts and collaboration to improve the lives of disabled people, enabling them to achieve their potential. To date, the Cabinet committee has met four times, looking at issues such as service delivery, employment, education pathways and access to assessments and therapy. The Cabinet committee has also considered the new national disability strategy. This ambitious strategy, to be published in the coming weeks, will set out a vision to 2030 and guide our work advancing the implementation of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities for the benefit of disabled people and our society. In addition to supporting the Cabinet committee, the new disability unit in my Department will drive innovation, troubleshoot where necessary, make sure policies are brought forward that improve quality of life for people with disabilities, develop real momentum in policy implementation and ensure a sustained focus on improving the delivery of services. Many in the various sectors are working hard for people with disabilities, but the system is not delivering to the extent that it needs to. The Government wants to unlock the capacity that already exists, while also building more capacity to put in place models of support and care that work, particularly for children and families. We are also committed to delivering a step change in disability services. While much remains to be done to bring about the service levels we want and people deserve, already we can see some progress, including the new education therapy service, which will see therapists working in special schools in the next school year, and the continued growth in numbers working in the HSE’s children’s disability network teams. I am determined that this Government make real and sustainable progress over the coming years to address the needs and advance the rights of all disabled people and their families.

I thank members for their attention as I outlined the work the Department of the Taoiseach is doing on issues that really matter to the people of Ireland. I am happy to answer any questions that members may have.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat. I call Deputy McGreehan.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Taoiseach. My question relates to the EU Presidency. It is a huge opportunity for Ireland to make our mark on Europe as we go through CAP. Changes are needed in the areas of CAP, disabilities and cancer care; there is so much we can do and highlight. The Taoiseach mentioned in his statement strategic goals and aims of the Presidency. Does Ireland have much leeway in what we want to put on the agenda or will it all come from Europe? What about staffing and making sure we have the expertise at the Department of the Taoiseach and across the Government to deliver on the agenda we want?

The Taoiseach:

I thank the Deputy. It is a combination but a lot will be dictated by progress on fundamental reforms and issues within the European agenda. For example, the multi-annual financial framework stands ready to be adopted in 2027. In the latter part of next year, there will be serious discussions on the nature of that framework. There will be fairly tough negotiations. They are already starting. That will be a key issue. We can prioritise the theme of our Presidency. A lot of work has been done; the Department of foreign affairs started planning well over a year and a half ago and brought on additional staff. In my Department, we have 9.8 whole-time equivalent staff working on European Union issues. The combined staffing complement of the Europe unit and European Union policy unit, which falls under the remit of the assistant secretary, EU and international division, currently consists of two principal officers, three assistant principal officers, three higher executive officers, 0.8 executive officers and one clerical officer. Further preparations are under way for the Presidency, working with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. There will be a range of agenda items for us to resolve, such as the savings and investments union. It is an important reform given the tariffs coming from the US. Europe has to get more competitive. We have to be able to start and scale up our own small enterprises. The European Union is losing a lot of capital at the moment due to the absence of a capital markets union. We also need to double down on the Single Market. It was estimated by the Draghi report at 48%, I think, in terms of the existing barriers to trade in the European Union, notwithstanding the Single Market. It could be the equivalent, I think, of 48% in tariffs. If we got rid of them, there would be far greater efficiencies. It is even higher for services - well over 100%. There is that whole agenda of the Single Market, the savings and investments union and dealing with those issues. The nitrates derogation is another.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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That is for another day. I am a huge fan of the shared island unit. It has done incredible work. North Louth has been a major recipient of funding. In the second term of the shared island unit, has there been a review of the impact of what has been done? There has been so much infrastructure. How do we bring it into schools? I propose a BT Young Scientist-type project for schools for young people to get involved in putting forward their ideas. I would love to see that in schools, showing young people across the island and asking them what they want Ireland to look like in a couple of years. It is one of the underestimated parts of the programme for Government. I know the Department is busy working on this but has it looked at how to show people what the shared island unit is doing and how it is breaking down an incredible number of barriers and supports an incredible number of communities?

The Taoiseach:

There will be ongoing evaluation but, to be fair, it has taken some time for some of the infrastructural projects to go from planning and design. The two big projects are the Ulster Canal and the Narrow Water Bridge. We were there recently to see the progress being made. There are also the allied tourism products around Carlingford, the Mourne Mountains, etc. There is also active travel, which will make that entire area a huge destination for tourism in the future because of the infrastructure that will go in.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The loop of the lough.

The Taoiseach:

There was €40 million funding for research in the previous phase involving joint projects between universities in the Republic and the North on issues of mutual concern. For example, better cancer diagnosis was one project between Queens University Belfast and Trinity College Dublin. We will evaluate the work to date. On education, one of the more innovative projects we commenced last year was around school completion based on an ESRI study funded by the shared island unit which showed that school completion was higher in the Republic than in Northern Ireland.

One of the principal reasons for that was the DEIS programme in the Republic. The question then was could we share knowledge, experience, teachers and so on to work on a programme that could be applied in Northern Ireland to help with school completion. We have done that.

I think there is scope for sharing curricula. I am interested in seeing whether we can develop a programme around a shared history or an understanding of people's different perspectives on history. It has often struck me that, historically in the Republic, we would not have had the same access to Northern Ireland poets as we should have had in the school curriculum and vice versa. Either in the English curriculum or the history curriculum, we could do with a kind of shared curriculum. When I say "shared", I mean optionally. It would not be mandatory but it would be there if students were interested. If historians or people involved in, say, the English language could develop programmes that could be there as an option for students North or South to avail of, those are the kinds of area we could do better on in education.

There is the national youth dialogue series. There is an all-island youth group. It has been very effective in terms of articulating its visions for the future. Its members might have different perspectives than older generations. That is something we are committed to. We do not want duplicate. The young scientist competition works very well.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I was not talking about science. I am talking about the future of the island on that sort of scale and that idea. The youth dialogue reaches only certain people but-----

The Taoiseach:

That is the problem. How do we get a representative sample of people? It is not easy.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Peace funds never hit Bush Post Primary School when I was younger. There were never any cross-Border initiatives. We were the nearest secondary school to the Border, yet we were never included and our voices were never there even though we were part of the conversation, or should have been part. My whole thing is to bring it right down to each school. It would be up to schools if they wanted to take part or not and if there was capacity within them. A student who excels at something or a prefect might be picked, but it is often the person who is the most disadvantaged or the quietest who has the best things to say.

The Taoiseach:

Point taken.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas.

The Taoiseach:

There is work we can do on the schools.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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On the same theme of the shared island initiative, I want to bring something to the Taoiseach's attention, which I raised in the Dáil in February and am now working with the Minister for tourism on, that is, an American President's trail on the island of Ireland. As the Taoiseach probably knows, 23 of the 47 US Presidents have heritage and ancestors from this island. Approximately half of them have come from Northern Ireland. I came up with this proposal and have had a map made of it. I have already met the Minister for tourism in his office on the whole idea of developing this trail, doing serious research and identifying the locations of these ancestors. There are already some obvious ones we know around the country and in Northern Ireland. There is clearly a tourism angle to it, but in relation to the all-island initiative, it could see North-South co-operation and bring the North and South together because half of the US Presidents came from Northern Ireland. Would the Taoiseach be supportive of this project and initiative?

The Taoiseach:

I would. It is a very good idea. Why did the Deputy not come to the shared island unit?

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Sorry?

The Taoiseach:

The Deputy should come to the shared island unit with the proposal. We would move it faster for him.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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It is never too late to do the right thing. I will bring it to the unit now.

The Taoiseach:

Obviously, the Deputy is probably right to go to the Minister for tourism. As the Deputy knows, each Department has to progress proposals but if it engages with our Northern counterparts as well and a proposal is put to us, it has merit. In fact, with the American celebration of independence next year-----

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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In 12 months.

The Taoiseach:

-----that Northern context is very important. It often has not been highlighted as much as the number of US Presidents who hail from the Republic.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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A lot of them are from the 19th century as well. The 20th century is more southern Ireland, the 19th century is more Northern Ireland.

The Taoiseach:

Correct.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I would be delighted if that was something the Taoiseach supported.

The Taoiseach:

I would be very interested in advancing that.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The 250th anniversary is exactly 12 months away, so there is nothing like a deadline to help get things moved on.

I have two other quick points-----

The Taoiseach:

We have a few trade deadlines as well.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Sorry?

The Taoiseach:

I am being facetious. We have a few trade deadlines as well coming our way.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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They are a moveable feast.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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This could all help to contribute.

The Taoiseach:

It could.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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It is another bit of soft power. The Taoiseach mentioned in his bullet points about engaging with the formulation of Government policy through Cabinet committees. As someone who was a county councillor for more than 20 years in Wicklow, could I ask that we look at ways of improving communication between councils and Departments? That is something I feel, just from my interactions here in my first six months, about the closeness of and interaction with the county councils. Councils will deliver a lot. We talk about Government policy; a lot of Government policy gets delivered by councils because they are the guys on the ground, especially with housing and infrastructure delivery. I wonder could we have more ideas about bringing councils and Departments closer together. The Taoiseach probably knows better than me. Councils get these memos and instructions but I feel there could be better communication, more face-to-face meetings and more targeted approaches between the councils and Departments. It is a general observation.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Before the Taoiseach answers, there is a vote at the moment, so I will see if a Seanadóir will step into my place or we could suspend.

The Taoiseach:

Someone do a count. Are we all cancelling one another out?

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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We will suspend for the vote and come back.

The Taoiseach:

I think Deputy Timmins's point is well made. In the olden days, before the dual mandate was abolished, there was an informal, de facto communication between Deputies and respective Ministers. I remember a wise former county manager saying to someone close to me that it was a mistake to get rid of the dual mandate because of the connection between councils and the Government. Invariably, there might have been four or five TDs in a city like Cork - maybe more - who were also councillors and who would lead deputations with county managers. The wise county manager - no matter who was in power, it did not really matter - would go and meet Ministers about the needs of the council, county or city. We lost some of that when the dual mandate was abolished. I do not see it coming back, but the Deputy's point about developing more effective mechanisms is valid.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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If CEOs interacted more-----

The Taoiseach:

Councillors as well.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I was a councillor for 20 years, so I am institutionalised. I bring the councillors in here and I involve them as much as possible, find out what is happening and get ideas from them.

The Taoiseach:

Okay.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I am glad the Taoiseach agrees with that. I have a third question but I will come back for that. It is a very short one.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his opening statement. I just have a couple of questions. Obviously, I have to try to drag them out for ten minutes.

The Taoiseach:

I will help.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Fein)
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We had a briefing this morning at the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, BIPA, from the Department of foreign affairs.

It strayed across a range of matters of British and Irish interest. We were told the discussion on legacy the Government is undertaking with the British Government is coming towards what is hoped will be a conclusion. Is it a bottom line for the Taoiseach, his Government and those speaking to the British Government that any proposal to deal with legacy matters is Article 2 compliant?

The Taoiseach:

Yes, we have argued and advocated for Article 2 compliance. To be fair, this is the UK Government's ambition also. There are further discussions to take place in respect of legacy. The Minister for foreign affairs is to engage with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Intensive and very constructive work has been ongoing for well over a year between officials at the Department of foreign affairs and officials in the British Government. A lot of progress has been made. Compliance with the ECHR and the ability to command the confidence of victims and survivors of the Troubles are the key benchmarks against which we have to assess progress in this respect. There have to be viable routes to the truth, accountability and justice for families and victims. Work is continuing at official and political level to see whether we can bring this to a successful conclusion. There is an opportunity here that may not appear again. Notwithstanding differences of opinion that people might have, this British Government has made a sincere and serious effort to move this on from where it was. There is a significant comparison between how this British Government is handling it compared with the previous British Government.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Fein)
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I agree that the previous British Government's proposals were so unacceptable they set it back quite long way, particularly in terms of confidence of victims that things will be dealt with. Is the Taoiseach concerned that, in the middle of this, the Prime Minister in Britain seems to have taken a fairly arbitrary decision not to recompense people who were wrongly detained? There are probably several hundred of them. There is focus on one particular person who was wrongly detained in the 1970s, when internment orders were not correctly signed by a British Secretary of State, which meant the detention was illegal. The Prime Minister has taken a decision to refuse to compensate these people, in the middle of a discussion where we are trying to get to a solution to provide not only some outcome for people who require it but public confidence in the way legacy issues are dealt with.

The Taoiseach:

The problem is that, in some respects, we need a comprehensive legacy framework that could deal with all issues. What has been happening in recent years is that various cases have come forward on an individual basis. Depending on how much progress is made on these cases, they get some attention but in an ad hoc way, whereas others do not get any attention at all or families do not get sufficient closure. This is the challenge here. Either we get a comprehensive framework to deal with almost all legacy issues or we will end up with individual ad hoc responses. To go back along, we had the Bloody Sunday inquiry. To be fair to the then Prime Minister, David Cameron, he responded in an effective and impactful manner at the time in terms of the apology, which people were worried would not happen. There was an inquiry into Ballymurphy but it was not at the same level. By this, I mean I thought the response could have been a bit better. It is a case-by-case approach, whereas if we were to have a comprehensive framework that commanded the support of survivors and the families of those who were killed, that would be the optimum and would avoid what is happening now.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Fein)
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I am not necessarily asking for a comment but, in that sense, it is somewhat counterintuitive to embark on something that is intended to produce this but, in the middle of it, decide to do things that are ad hoc and clearly act in the face of natural justice.

The Taoiseach:

The problem is that sometimes we are subject to the vagaries of British politics and pressures that Governments are under at different times. The previous British Government made commitments in the general election previous to the most recent one that basically undermined the existing Stormont House Agreement between the two Governments. It was done unilaterally in the context of a commitment to a particular constituency, namely, military veterans. This shaped everything that happened subsequently. In fact, the previous British Government only informed the Irish Government what it was doing. There was very little engagement on many issues. On this occasion there is far better engagement, it has to be said.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Fein)
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Some questions have been raised on the shared island fund. It is very much welcome, particularly North of the Border, in a set of circumstances where there is vastly insufficient funding to cover basic public services. Even though it is used for a different purpose, the injection of support has been very welcome. The Taoiseach spoke about the possibility of an assessment of its effectiveness to date. Like the Taoiseach I have been to the Narrow Water Bridge many times, tracking its progress. This project will have a significant positive impact for the tourism potential of the Carlingford Lough area, the Cooley Peninsula, the Mourne Mountains and even Slieve Gullion in south Armagh, which I must add in.

Is there an opportunity in the review, and I am not diminishing in any sense the funding for heritage, civil society, arts and culture, which are all very important, as is nature-led restoration, but is there an opportunity to have a more hard-nosed strategic approach in it? The Taoiseach mentioned, when responding earlier to either Deputy McGreehan or Deputy Timmins, work with universities and training. The all-Ireland economy has continued to grow, perhaps with not an awful lot of nurture, certainly North of the Border, until recent years. Is there an opportunity to use shared island funding in a way that benefits economic growth throughout the island and allows for the development of clustering? This would feed into what the Taoiseach said earlier about economic uncertainties. Having more clustering on the island and more diversity in terms of the economy throughout the island would, perhaps, slightly better insulate us from some of the economic shocks that might come through the tariff discussions and other issues.

Is there a way to use the funding more strategically? It is great to contribute to schools and to bring people together for reconciliation but there are actually barriers to people availing of educational opportunities across the island. There are barriers to people availing of training opportunities across the island. In terms of the review, is there is a sense that a more strategic focus would bring longer term benefits? I am not in any way diminishing its benefits to date but are there measures that would contribute in the longer term to other parts of the Taoiseach's prioritisation in terms of economic growth, prosperity, sustainability and diversity of the economy across the island?

The Taoiseach:

The point is well made. Investment in infrastructure helps the economy. For example, investment in the train service means there are now hourly services between Dublin and Belfast. This has real economic impact. There is an enterprise strand to the shared island fund. It took a bit longer to get going because of difficulties with matching funding, particularly in the north west. We are now looking at further investment in enterprise in the central Border area, so anything that increases connectivity, and infrastructure can help us. There is also greater engagement between local authorities. We funded projects that involved approximately 25 local authorities with a view to them coming up with pipeline projects that would improve the economy of the areas of those local authorities. The A5 is a classic case, even though the funding is coming out of the Department of Transport and not necessarily the shared island fund. Under the shared island fund we are looking at an air link between Derry and Dublin. It would be a PSO route funded out of the shared island fund. This would be an important economic connection.

There is a role for the shared island unit in facilitating continued economic growth and adding to it, primarily through investment in infrastructure and then the enterprise strand, which we are already working on and in which we have already invested some money.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Fein)
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I have time for a short question. I was at the CBI NI-IBEC event in Ballymascanlon the Taoiseach spoke at. He was asked about cross-Border taxation issues and how they have become even more pronounced during and after the Covid pandemic. With remote working, people now find themselves working for a Southern entity while living in and working out of the North or vice versa. The Taoiseach said that, even though there are complexities involved, he believes there is an opportunity to push through a solution. Will he expand further on that? Is there a dialogue ongoing between the Department of Finance and the Treasury? It has long been a thorny issue in the Border region and perhaps beyond given the mobility of the workforce across the island. It is something that would be welcomed by the many people I know who fall into that category.

The Taoiseach:

It is an issue and we have to focus on it. I have spoken to the Minister of Finance, who is working on this, because the all-island economy is growing in size and sophistication. Cross-Border working is welcome and it is a valuable feature of our island economy. It creates great opportunities for workers and employers. I chaired a meeting of the Labour Employer Economic Forum on 4 April and, as part of the agenda, the forum discussed the potential of strengthening the all-island labour market for the benefit of employers and workers across the entire island. It was agreed that LEEF would put a sustained focus on this important agenda.

The taxation treatment of people employed in Northern Ireland who work remotely in the South is an issue of concern. That has been identified in research we have done through the shared island unit. To be clear, there is no double taxation for people who work remotely from the South while being employed in Northern Ireland. Set-off arrangements are available under the double taxation agreement between Ireland and the United Kingdom. The Minister for Finance continues to consider the issues raised by cross-Border worker representatives regarding the treatment of remote working. There is a complexity as two jurisdictions' policies are involved and international frameworks also play a role. The tax policy implications of remote working are now being examined at the European Union and OECD levels. We are participating fully in these discussions. We are also engaging with our United Kingdom counterparts. The advance of remote working has now created a scenario across the European mainland. Cross-border treatment is an issue there as well. I hope that European dimension does not add to the complexity or delay the timeline for us dealing with this issue in a meaningful way for workers who work across the Border. I genuinely believe that labour market is very beneficial both ways and attracts investment to the island. If you speak to most companies today, they will say that, notwithstanding tariffs and everything, human capital is the number one issue.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Fein)
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I apologise to the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach if I used more than my time.

Cathal Byrne (Fine Gael)
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It is no problem at all. I have one question. It relates to the nitrates derogation. I saw the announcement regarding feedback from the European Commission and the requirement to consider impacts on habitats directive goals. Given the changes we have seen from the European Commission side of the table, how likely is it that we will be able to retain the nitrates derogation in its current form?

The Taoiseach:

There are two issues. Water quality remains a fundamental issue. As the Senator will know, I have set up a Cabinet subcommittee on water quality. I have met with President von der Leyen in this regard. The Minister, Deputy Heydon, has met with the Commissioner responsible and has invited her to Ireland. The habitats directive is a significant additional factor. Of course, An Taisce has taken a case against the fifth nitrates action plan. That has to be taken into consideration in respect of the sixth plan to be presented. There is a further complication arising from the Dutch jurisprudence on the matter, which relates to whether assessment should be carried out by farm or by catchment area. The Minister for agriculture and the Minister for housing brought a memo to the Government two weeks ago outlining the approach they are going to take to progressing this issue with a view to getting a more sustainable future for farmers. There are some areas of the country where the levels are higher than in others. That is problematic but there has also been significant progress made in reducing nitrates in many waterways across the country. There has been a reduction of approximately 10%, as verified by the EPA. Farmers are doing extraordinary work to meet water quality standards. There has been very significant improvement and a lot of investment. The Government is supporting that investment, as is the European Union through the EIP programme.

It will be challenging but we are determined to do everything we possibly can to retain the derogation. Ours is a grass-based industry that is unique across Europe. Our progress has been acknowledged but there will be challenges in this regard. There is no point in saying otherwise. This is vital for dairy farmers in particular but also for the wider agricultural sector because any challenges affect land prices and will affect other sectors as a consequence.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Seanadóir Byrne as a bheith mar Chathaoirleach Gníomhach. We had interrupted an Teachta Timmins due to a vote. He has three minutes left.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Taoiseach for answering my two earlier questions. I am delighted to see he agrees with me and supports those projects.

I have a very quick third question. I have brought up the issue of long-term budgeting with the relevant Ministers. This is not directly within the Taoiseach's remit but I will raise the issue again given his overall economic brief. We do budgets every year and a medium-term fiscal-structural plan, which covers five years. This is required by the EU although it is not really that detailed. We should be doing longer-term budgets. We have an ageing population and so on. We can plug in figures as to what pensions and so on are going to cost us in five or ten years' time. I ask the Taoiseach for his support for much longer-term planning. This would also involve guaranteeing funding for infrastructure projects over a ten- or 20-year plan but we should look much further ahead even with current or day-to-day spending and not get wrapped up in the annual budget cycle.

The Taoiseach:

It is not simple. Let us look at the economically disruptive events of the past five years. We have had Brexit, Covid-19, which upended society and the economy for a good two years, and the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I know that but, if you project way ahead, you get ideas as to what to focus on.

The Taoiseach:

Of course, yes.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Plans would still be amended all the time.

The Taoiseach:

We do that from a policy perspective. We are projecting ahead. AI is a big issue coming down the tracks. It is already here. We must consider the connection between offshore energy development and AI. We must also consider healthcare. That is why we provided for the Future Ireland Fund. We have legislatively provided for a percentage of GNI to go into this fund. At the end of this year, €16 billion will have been provided.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I am talking about physical budgets.

The Taoiseach:

That would be very difficult. It would have to be given exceptional thought because, to project ten years ahead and say-----

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I understand the difficulty and the limitations but it gets you thinking and focused on the problems that are going to hit us in ten years' time and in 15 years' time. If you do not project the numbers out that far, you will not be conscious of them.

The Taoiseach:

I am not sure. I am not being contrarian. I am just saying it is not that straightforward. What we should do to provide for the problems of the future is what we are doing through the funds we are providing. The Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund was designed with a view to making sure we could keep our capital programmes going. We know that we have to invest heavily in infrastructure not just for now, but for the next 20 years.

In an economic cycle, the question is how we make sure that when there is a downturn we have sufficient capital in place to continue with the capital investment. We are going to do the metro project but we have to commit to that over a number of years.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That will mean €200 million for ten years, or whatever it is.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but we have to say it is going to be done. Putting money to one side to enable us to do that is important. Healthcare costs will be the big one. Ireland's population is getting progressively older. Healthcare costs, combined with elderly care costs and pension costs, will be very significant in the coming decades. The Future Ireland Fund was meant as an opportunity to create sustainable funding to provide for all of that. We projected 5% current growth over the past five years, but we were ahead of this projection all the time because of the events that I mentioned.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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Regarding the issue of tariffs and the way forward from an Irish point of view, if that does arise and we have to deal with it in an overall context, have we evaluated the negative effects it will have on production levels and employment or does the Taoiseach believe we will be able to deal with the challenge? Has Government looked at this from the point of view of forward planning over the next five years?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The ESRI has published evaluations of the potential impacts of various tariff regimes on growth in the Irish economy. It has used GNI and GDP metrics. Much depends on the scale of the tariffs. I have spoken to a significant number of CEOs in the pharmaceutical and medical technology sectors and they are concerned. President Trump has said that he wants to get manufacturing back to the United States. Most of the CEOs I have spoken to do not believe that is feasible in physical terms, in a short time, anyway. The disruptive nature of this is significant also. The disruption in the supply chains could lead to shortages of medicines and so on. It is also very difficult because huge expertise has been built up over many decades in many of these plants. It could have a disruptive impact on the value of companies. If we take, for example, Apple products coming out of Taiwan or China, the impact on the price of an iPad or an iPhone would be dramatic if all of that production had to be discontinued and moved to the United States. It would make many of the products almost unaffordable. The models have been established over the past two or three decades, since globalisation. I do not think they can be easily changed. That kind of disruption will have a negative impact. This is why we have to concentrate on what we can control regarding competitiveness in Ireland and in the European Union. One of the most effective things we can do is to invest in infrastructure. We are behind in this regard so we need to invest more.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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I want to move on to a different issue. The Taoiseach talked about the next Government action plan and we are very much focused on infrastructure. He mentioned the increasing population, and since 2000 the population has increased by 43%, with 1.6 million more people in the country. I know that we have created an extra one million jobs since 2011 but the challenge now is to do with services. Over the past two years, I have been trying to have the number of radiation therapists increased. We had linear radiation therapy scanners lying idle because we did not have enough radiation therapists. In Cork, there is a current shortfall of 12 radiation therapists because they are not physically available. While we are focusing very much on infrastructure, we need now to grow services in many areas by about 40%, the same as the population increase.

I previously raised the issue of dentistry. Do we need to look at an overall view of services, not at delivery but the planning for it, as regards college places in higher education institutions like the Munster Technological University and others? We need to ensure that we are planning for enough people to come through the education system to be able to deliver those services. That is the concern I have. The dental service is really chaotic at the moment. In fairness, we increased the number of GPs in training from 180 in 2024 to 350 this year, so that by 2028, we will have 350 trained GPs graduating. However, we are not doing this in every area. In the Government action plan are we looking at services and forward planning in the education system to make sure we have people trained in those areas?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is a fair point. The short answer is that we are. There is an overall skills forum which tries to identify skill needs into the future. We have also been increasing throughput in the medicine area over the past number years. The Department of higher education has worked with the Department of Health on this. In fact, we have secured places in Northern Ireland for medical students. The Deputy is correct; we also need to do more on therapists and dentists. The issue with radiation therapists was forecast some time ago because there are parallel developments of private radiation oncology and public radiation oncology. I remember having a row 20 years ago with the private-----

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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It is only from September of this year that the places in Trinity College will increase from 30 to 50. In UCC the proposal is to increases places on the master's course from 12 to 24. It will still be a considerable time before they are all available, and the same applies to dentistry.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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We need to-----

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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In 2023, 61 dentists qualified in UCC. Of those, 36 were not European and the position has not really changed over the last 20 years. Similarly in Trinity College, 46 dentists qualified and 21 of those were not European. I am only highlighting this issue in the sense that there are other service areas as well that we have not really focused on. The increases in population and in the number of jobs have been very sudden. We now need to focus on forward planning in these areas.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but we also need to look at how we construct services, particularly specialist ones. As I said earlier, I can remember 20 years ago having a fairly serious row with the private provider in Galway, pleading with it not to go ahead with radiation oncology because we had planned to develop radiation oncology in University Hospital Galway. We said that there would not be enough radiation oncologist experts around to do both. We are witnessing a proliferation of both private services and public services and we do not have the human resources to cover them. There are worldwide shortages in some of these areas. That said, the Deputy's basic point is a good one about workforce planning and making sure there is a connection between the plans of the health service dovetailing back to the education sector. That is critically important.

The other key issue is CORU and the various regulatory bodies. They are improving but they need to be faster, more efficient and less protectionist about how they do things. There are still problems with mutual recognition across the European Union, which means that someone from France who is a speech and language therapist, or an occupational therapist or a physiotherapist needs to do something extra when they come to Ireland.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The programme for Government commits to the six surgical hubs, two in Dublin, and one each in Waterford, Limerick, Cork and Galway. There is a big concern about this above the Galway-Dublin line. The programme for Government committed to explore the establishment of a surgical hub in the north west. In a recent radio interview on Highland Radio in Donegal, the Minister of State, Deputy Marian Harkin, stated that she had negotiated the location of this hub to be in Sligo.

As the Taoiseach will know, there is a crisis in surgical services at Letterkenny and 171 doctors or consultants have signed a letter to the Minister. In fairness to the Minister for Health, she has been engaging. She now has had two meetings with the representatives of the 171 doctors and they have reported that she is listening and considering the facts. The programme for Government says that the establishment of a surgical hub in the north west would be explored. I ask the Taoiseach to clarify that that is not a closed matter and is being actively considered by the Government. I suggest that the solution may well be two surgical hubs to reflect the unique geographic circumstances of the region, which the Taoiseach knows well. A person who lives in north Donegal, in my part of the county, which is Inishowen, would potentially have to travel five hours to reach the nearest model 4 hospital in Galway. That is an example of the unique geographic challenge of the region. A call to consider two surgical hubs has emerged. To be clear, I ask the Taoiseach to clarify that a final decision has not been made and this matter is not subject to a deal in Government negotiations and the Minister for Health is actively considering the proposal.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, the surgical hub is not part of a deal because there was a commitment in the programme for Government for a surgical hub in the north west, on which the HSE is currently finalising a feasibility study. We cannot interfere in that feasibility study nor am I going to interfere in that feasibility study re the potential north-west hub and a business case will be submitted to the Department of Health for consideration in due course.

As the Deputy has mentioned, there has been discussion vis-à-vis Sligo. People have advanced it. The Minister of State, Deputy Marian Harkin, is clearly supportive and is advocating strongly for Sligo. Of that there is no doubt.

In respect of Deputies representing Donegal, Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher has been knocking my door down. The Deputy present will know that when Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher starts knocking on a door that he does not stop knocking. Obviously the Minister of State, Deputy Charlie McConalogue, the Deputy himself and others are pursuing it. I hear what the Deputy says in terms of two hubs. I also think that the north west should be looked at in its entirety. I think Altnagelvin should also come into, maybe not for surgical hubs but the general planning because sometimes Letterkenny gets kind of worried about that. I remember visiting Altnagelvin and a person from Inishowen saying to me that only for Altnagelvin and the investment we put into its cardiac centre that he would not be alive. The guy was only in Altnagelvin for 36 or 48 hours and he was leaving after stents were put in. My view is that it is far better that people go to Altnagelvin than to Galway so I think we need to be more creative and more expansionary in terms of our relationship with Altnagelvin, Letterkenny and Sligo. We should look at it in that context. There is a remoteness and a geographic issue that I am confident we can work with the HSE to try to get resolved.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the clarification because there is a lot of anxiety in Donegal about it. As the Taoiseach will know, all Government and Opposition representatives in Donegal are making the case because we are really concerned that there is a threat to our emergency services. It is a genuine threat because of the crisis in surgical services. I agree with what the Taoiseach said about the cross-Border dimension. The north west cancer centre in Altnagelvin was a really good news story. Treatment for cancer patients across the region were co-funded by both. I agree with the Taoiseach on that and welcome his comments.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Is féidir linn bogadh ar aghaidh anois.  I am conscious of time and I want to keep our discussion within time and I will now ask a few questions.

I am sure that the Taoiseach will agree that it is important to plan for the future for all of us in all our lives. That is particularly the case when setting out the course of what will happen in this country in the future. It is a very necessary part and work of Government, under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, that the people of our island will have a decision through referendums as to the constitutional future of this island, whether that decision through the referendums is to end the union with Britain, if that is the wish. In my view the following is quite clear and I have raised this issue with the Taoiseach. We should plan discussions to decide on all of these matters. We have seen previously with other referendums how important it is to have those conversations and have people involved. We have had a situation whereby the former Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, has proposed a forum. Sinn Féin, the SDLP, as well as others, including unionist voices, have suggested a citizens' assembly or a different type of assembly. What is the Taoiseach's own Government's plans are to deal with these matter?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Fundamentally, it is our view that we are not planning for a constitutional referendum in the next five years during the term of this Government and we have been clear on that. We have developed a shared island initiative and we have put an extra €1 billion in there.

My view is that we would have to build reconciliation and everything is not about a Border poll. I believe in Wolfe Tone's vision of a united Ireland in the context of reconciliation between people and the unity of people, not just territory. I think we have a lot of work to do and the hard work of reconciliation has to happen.

I launched a book last evening on partition. One of the conclusions from it is that in the 1940s and 1950s - although interestingly, de Valera and Lemass from very early on were saying we need to engage - in the Republic there was lots of anti-partition rhetoric but practically, it went nowhere. It was only when Lemass went over to meet Terence O'Neill there actually was a period in the 1960s where there was a beginning to develop an engagement. There should have been a Council of Ireland in 1925, at the time of the Boundary Commission and all of that. That might have helped us engage. The issues were never engaged with in terms of unionism and loyalism. The Good Friday Agreement was probably the first time there was a substantial examination of parity of esteem and of respect for each other's traditions and cultures. However, I do not think the Good Friday Agreement has been fully realised in terms of making advances on reconciliation.

I think we need to build more reconciliation in the first instance. We have made a lot of progress in terms of North-South agenda. Membership of the European Union did facilitate that. Brexit has been a negative in that respect because to a large extent, the Border disappeared economically when we were members of the Single Market. That did not get commented on much. It was not done by any referendum. We have an all-island Single Market, for example, and there is a far greater convergence on economy, even though some might not want to admit that but there is and there is far greater connectivity. We need to continue to work on that basis. That would be my view. I also think that the politics of the North has to evolve as well. The current Executive is working reasonably well. There are issues and so forth, and disagreements. All of that has to be in place. That would be my view on it.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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What has politicised me is my view in terms of a united Ireland. When I talk to people about this I like to talk about the things that we agree with. I think the things that we agree on, in respect of the Taoiseach's response, is the concept of unity. For me, this is about a unity referendum. It is about having everybody involved in the conversation and that means people of all different types of views. What I always say is that no matter who you talk to, if you are talking a look at what Ireland will look like in the future, every single person is going to have a different point of view. I always make the point that Louis O'Hara and I are both Sinn Féin Deputies from Galway but I am sure we have different perspectives in terms of our view of the future if you look at everything in detail. That is why I strongly feel that we need to have structured conversations that are led by the Irish Government.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The danger-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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That is my view.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach mentioned that there are issues that have not been engaged with and that is the case. To be honest, and it is important to be honest, without structured conversations on unity we kind of are ignoring the elephant in the room.

It is contained within the Good Friday Agreement and it is something that has not been realised from the agreement.

We need to move forward on a basis of honesty. For example, I am very honest that I want to see a united Ireland. When we are talking about different aspects, whether reconciliation or anything else, all of it can be done in a structured way through the Government, and the Government could play a huge role in this. The Taoiseach may disagree on that wider point. Given the basis of this, we need to look at what we agree on.

The Taoiseach:

Under the previous Government and this Government, the shared island initiative, even though it is without any constitutional context - we have been upfront, honest and very straightforward about that; it is not a Trojan Horse - has earned significant engagement from all traditions on the island, particularly from Northern Ireland. That is a positive. It is about building connectivity and reconciliation, sorting out mutual problems and working out how we share the place together. It is very much based on Seamus Mallon's idea of a shared home place. We all live on this island and the question is how we share it in the most harmonious and productive way.

If we preordain the outcome immediately in terms of having a referendum on whatever date and telling people what the result will be, that might get a negative result or it may just alienate people before the ball is thrown. There is a need to engage with communities with which we have not been good at engaging. They, too, must engage; there is a need for two-way communication.

The way the Border poll idea came about was aggressive at the time. It was in response to Brexit and would have thrown petrol on the fire at the time because Brexit was a disaster for Britain and was damaging for British-Irish relations and North-South relations. We rescued it as best we could in the Windsor Framework and all of that, and Northern Ireland is still in the Single Market. I think we have overcome that bit. If politics could demonstrate people working together in the North for a sustained period, barriers would break down.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat, a Thaoiseach agus gach duine. I have been strict on time with other speakers and must also be strict on time with myself.

Our next meeting is next Wednesday, 16 July, when we will commence in public session at 2.30 p.m.