Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Tá leithscéal faighte againn ón Teachta Dála Shay Brennan. Is mian liom na riachtanais bhunreachtúla seo a leanas a mheabhrú do chomhaltaí agus páirt á glacadh acu i gcruinnithe poiblí. Caithfidh comhaltaí a bheith i láthair go fisiciúil laistigh de theorainneacha shuíomh Theach Laighean. Ní cheadóidh mé do chomhaltaí páirt a ghlacadh i gcruinnithe poiblí nuair nach bhfuil siad ag cloí leis an riachtanas bunreachtúil seo. Mar sin, má dhéanann aon chomhalta iarracht páirt a ghlacadh ó lasmuigh den suíomh, iarrfaidh mé orthu an cruinniú a fhágáil. Maidir leis seo, iarraim ar chomhaltaí a dheimhniú go bhfuil siad i láthair laistigh de phurláin Theach Laighean sula ndéanann siad aon ionchur sa chruinniú ar MS Teams.

Fiafraítear de chomhaltaí cleachtadh parlaiminte a urramú, nár chóir, más féidir, daoine nó eintiteas a cháineadh ná líomhaintí a dhéanamh ina n-aghaidh ná tuairimí a thabhairt maidir leo ina ainm, ina hainm nó ina n-ainmneacha ar shlí a bhféadfaí iad a aithint. Chomh maith leis sin, fiafraítear díobh gan aon rud a rá a d’fhéadfaí breathnú air mar ábhar díobhálach do dhea-chlú aon duine nó eintiteas. Mar sin, dá bhféadfadh a ráitis a bheith clúmhillteach do dhuine nó d'eintiteas aitheanta, ordóidh mé dóibh éirí as an ráiteas láithreach. Tá sé ríthábhachtach go ngéillfidís don ordú sin láithreach.

I advise members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member participating via MS Teams that prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

For the context of today, the Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach is meeting to consider the Revised Estimates Votes 1 to 6, inclusive, for the Office of An Taoiseach. The Revised Estimates Volume for public services, REV, provides considerably more detail at subhead level as well as performance metrics. Revised Estimates are the revised, final proposed spending for the next year and form the basis for parliamentary scrutiny of allocated expenditure. I welcome An Taoiseach and his officials to today's meeting. I invite An Taoiseach, Micheál Martin, to make his opening statement.

The Taoiseach:

A Chathaoirligh agus a chomhaltaí an chomhchoiste, gabhaim buíochas libh as an deis seo chun teacht os comhair an roghchoiste agus sibh ag déanamh machnamh ar Mheastacháin 2025 do ghrúpa Vótaí Roinn an Taoisigh. Tá sé Vóta i ngrúpa Vótaí Roinn an Taoisigh, is iad sin: Vóta 1 - Arás an Uachtaráin; Vóta 2 – Roinn an Taoisigh; Vóta 3 – Oifig an Ard-Aighne; Vóta 4 – Príomh-Oifig Staidrimh; Vóta 5 – Oifig an Stiúrthóra Ionchúiseamh Poiblí; agus Vóta 6 – Oifig Phríomh-Aturnae an Stáit. Soláthraíodh doiciméad faisnéise le haghaidh gach ceann de na Vótaí seo don choiste roimh an gcruinniú seo. Cé go bhfuil freagrachtaí ar leith orm don Oireachtas mar gheall ar chúrsaí riaracháin i gcuid de na hoifigí seo, oibríonn siad go neamhspleách ó Roinn an Taoisigh.

I appreciate the opportunity to appear before the select committee as it considers the 2025 Estimates for the Vote group of the Department of the Taoiseach. I have already outlined as Gaeilge the six Votes that make up the Department of the Taoiseach. A briefing document for each of these Votes has been supplied to the committee in advance of this meeting. While I have certain responsibilities to the Oireachtas for administrative matters in some of these offices, they operate independently of the Department of the Taoiseach.

The gross funding allocation sought for the Vote group for 2025 totals just over €292 million, an increase of 7% on 2024. I will now give a brief overview of the 2025 funding allocations for each individual Vote.

In respect of Vote 1 - President's Establishment, the purpose of the Vote allocation for this Vote is to support the President’s Establishment to deliver its high level goal to provide high quality, timely support services to the President in the execution of his constitutional, legal and representational duties and responsibilities and to provide for payment of the centenarians’ bounty in a timely and expeditious manner. The 2025 gross Estimate for the President’s Establishment is €5.5 million; an increase of 4% on 2024. The increase in this Vote reflects the increase in administrative subheads for pay and operating expenses.

In respect of Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach, the purpose of the Vote allocation is to support the Department to deliver its high level goals of helping the Taoiseach and the Government to ensure a sustainable economy and a successful society, pursuing Ireland’s interests abroad, implementing the Government’s programme and building a better future for Ireland and all her citizens. The 2025 gross Estimate for the Department of the Taoiseach is €38.2 million, a decrease of €581,000 compared with 2024. A total of 67%, or €25.42 million, of the Vote allocation relates to salaries, wages and allowances. Administration costs for the Department account for 16%. The remaining 17% provides non-pay funding for the National Economic and Social Development Office, the COVID-19 evaluation, Citizens' Assembly and a number of independent inquiries.

On Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General, the purpose of the Vote allocation is to support the Office of the Attorney General to deliver its high level goal of providing the highest standard of professional legal services to Government, Departments and offices as economically and efficiently as possible and to support adherence to the rule of law. The 2025 gross Estimate for the Office of the Attorney General is €26.3 million, an increase of 6% on 2024. A sum of €3.35 million of the Office of the Attorney General’s 2025 Estimate is allocated to the Law Reform Commission, an increase of 10% on 2024. A total of 78%, €20.36 million, of the Office of the Attorney General’s Vote allocation relates to salaries, wages and allowances. The 2025 provision for pay is €20.362 million, an increase of 13% on 2024. This reflects the increase in costs for current staff in addition to the need to increase staff numbers, which is required to support the timely implementation of the programme for Government. This increase is partially offset by savings in non-pay expenditure.

On Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office, the purpose of the Vote allocation is to support the office to deliver its high level goal to describe Ireland, its people, economy, society and environment through verifiable data and accurate information while providing impartial insight. The 2025 gross Estimate for the CSO is €94.8 million, an increase of 14% on 2024. A total of 76%, which is €72 million, of the CSO’s Vote is pay related, with the remaining 24% split across the non-pay subheads. The 2025 gross Estimate includes €1.2 million national recovery and resilience plan funding for the provision of an online census platform.

On Vote 5 - Office of the Director for Public Prosecutions, the purpose of the Vote allocation is to support the office to deliver its high level goal to provide, on behalf of the people of Ireland, a prosecution service which is independent, fair and effective.

The 2025 gross Estimate for the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions is €73.1 million, an increase of 9% on 2024. The 9% increase on 2024 is principally made up of an increase of €3.96 million in pay, an increase of €1.08 million in fees to counsel and an increase of €800,000 in the local State solicitor service. This increased funding allocation will provide for the additional staff required to deal with the increase in the volume and complexity of file activity levels in recent years. It will also allow for the development of the prosecution service in key areas such as financial crime and sexual offences in addition to the core legal work of the office, including a significant increase in court sittings in the Central Criminal Court and Circuit Courts in particular.

On Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor, the purpose of this Vote allocation is to support the office in delivering its high level goal to provide the highest standard of professional legal services to Government Departments and offices as economically and efficiently as possible and to support adherence to the rule of law. The 2025 gross Estimate for the Office of the Chief State Solicitor is €54.5 million, an increase of 2% on 2024. This increase in funding is primarily attributable to funding higher staff and operational costs at the office.

I welcome the opportunity to engage further with the committee on the 2025 Revised Estimates for the Vote group of the Department of the Taoiseach. I will endeavour to provide any further information required. Given the breadth of the Vote group in terms of activities, functions and responsibilities and the independent status of a number of the offices in the group, I may not be able to provide all information requested by members in the room today. If that proves to be the case, I will revert to the Chair in writing as soon as possible thereafter with the relevant information. I thank the members for their attention and commend the 2025 Revised Estimates for Votes 1 to 6 to the committee.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I now invite members to discuss these Estimates. I remind members participating remotely to use the "raise hand" function. I also remind members that there is a tight timeline for this meeting. I ask people to be as succinct as possible. Members will have a maximum of five minutes each.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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The Taoiseach and his officials are very welcome. He has said that he is going to prioritise addressing child poverty. That is a worthy ambition and one all of us should share. An office has been established in the Taoiseach's Department to address that issue on the well-being of children. How many whole-time equivalent staff are engaged in that unit?

The Taoiseach:

The Deputy is correct; the programme for Government commits to retaining the child poverty and well-being programme office in the Department of the Taoiseach. I have decided to retain that with a view to breaking down silos across Government and driving the delivery of measures aimed at reducing child poverty. There are six full-time equivalent staff. This comprises one principal officer, two assistant principal officers, two administrative officers and one Irish Government Economic and Evaluation Service, IGEES, intern.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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Is that the same as under the previous administration or are there additional staff compared to-----

The Taoiseach:

There are no additional staff. An assistant secretary oversees the office.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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I will put a couple of questions, if I may. I appreciate that we are under time pressure. On subhead A.6, relating to citizens' assemblies, I note that €1.547 million was allocated last year. It is €500,000 this year. I know there was a very active series of citizens' assemblies during the previous administration. What are the plans for citizens' assemblies for this administration? My understanding is that there may only be one, a citizens' assembly on the future of education. What are the plans for future citizens' assemblies? Why has there been a reduction? There are none this year. Is this €500,000 to clear up some of the outstanding work of the previous assemblies? What are the plans for the assembly on education?

The Taoiseach:

The Deputy is correct that provision has not been made for citizens' assemblies this year. On education, we envisage a national convention-type approach. This is different from the model of a citizens' assembly. The Deputy might recall a similar national convention on education being convened by the then Minister for Education, the late Niamh Bhreathnach, in the mid-1990s. I happened to be the Opposition spokesperson at that time. The Minister agrees with the programme for Government commitment to create a national conversation on education more generally, in which stakeholders could engage. It is a better model in terms of public representatives and stakeholders involved in education all contributing.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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There are no plans for citizens' assemblies as we knew them in the previous administration or for constitutional conventions. It will be a different model.

The Taoiseach:

Yes, but I am not ruling out the potential for future citizens' assemblies on other topics.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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There are none committed to in the programme for Government.

The Taoiseach:

There are none committed to but I am not ruling it out in the event that someone comes forward with an idea. We need to review the methodology and model of citizens' assemblies, particularly in light of the last two. We also have to work through the recommendations of the last number of citizens' assemblies and get some traction on them, which is also important, rather than just allowing them to build up on top of each other.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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On the Attorney General's Vote, I understand that it is an independent office. That is well accepted. The Taoiseach may not have this material available to him but he might engage with the committee if he does not. Under subhead A.6, which relates to the consolidation and revision of planning legislation, the Estimate last year was €250,000 but nothing has been allocated this year. I assume that €250,000 was for the engagement of consultants and outside advice on the planning Bill.

The Taoiseach:

Yes.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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Does the Taoiseach know who provided that advice? Was it a number of different firms or individual barristers?

The Taoiseach:

I do not have that-----

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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Could it be forwarded to the committee?

The Taoiseach:

Yes. It would obviously fall under the remit of the Attorney General's office. We do not have a role in that. I do not have a role as regards the specifics of who is retained. Over the period of the work on the planning Act, given the enormity of the legislation, external legal advice was sought. What the Deputy is witnessing is the winding-down of that as the Act has now been passed. The respective Departments are now actually dealing with it.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Taoiseach and his officials for their attendance. On Vote 2 and section C of the briefing note, which is on sustaining the economy and investment, it is reported in today's Business Post that Irish banks are earning substantially more on mortgages than their UK counterparts. Research from RBC Capital Markets shows that Irish retail banks, AIB, Bank of Ireland and PTSB, are earning higher margins on mortgages than lenders in the UK. The average spread on Irish mortgages, the difference between the interest banks charge and the interest they pay, was almost 2% in quarter 2 of this year. The comparable figure in the UK was less than 0.6%. That has particular economic impacts in respect of people's ability to access and afford housing. What is the Taoiseach's view on this? Does something need to be done about it? What sort of action or approach could be taken?

The Taoiseach:

I have not read that article. I would like to read it before offering a detailed view. Because of the various housing schemes we have introduced, particularly the help-to-buy and first home schemes, there has been exponential growth in the number of new mortgages drawn down by first-time buyers. The banks have an obligation to make sure they give fair and equitable treatment to those mortgage holders, who are predominantly younger people starting out in life. I also believe the banks should be lending more to the construction industry in the Republic. I do not believe the lending is of sufficient scale given the huge issue housing represents and the pent-up demand. In my view, there would be an adequate return. Lending is far too conservative at the moment. The cost of financing is an issue in construction. The banks could play a stronger role on that. The banks are doing well out of the mortgage market. They have two responsibilities. They must be fair and equitable to those taking out mortgages but they must also lend more to smaller builders and construction companies on economic terms. That would aid the more rapid construction of houses and apartments.

I will examine this and I will also revert to the Minister for Finance. I have not read the report in detail. I appreciate that.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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Given credible analysis has reported the margin on mortgages in Ireland is more than three times that of the UK, with respect to the gap in the interest rates, that is very serious. It has very serious impacts on people trying to get somewhere to live. That then has very serious knock-on impacts for the economy in terms of housing supply, wage growth and pressures there.

The Taoiseach:

I would prefer to have a broader read of not just the article but the full background with regard to comparisons between the UK and our market. The Minister for Finance obviously deals regularly, via the Central Bank, with the commercial banks. That is an issue that will be examined by the Government, but again I have not seen the article.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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Would the Taoiseach be happy to come back to the committee on it after that?

The Taoiseach:

I would. It is not relevant to this budget but I have no problem coming back.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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It is. The Taoiseach has a larger briefing note on Vote 2 about sustaining the economy and investment and I think this is absolutely relevant to that. If the Taoiseach is going to produce the briefing note-----

The Taoiseach:

But I have not read the article.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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He might come back to the committee on it.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Taoiseach and his staff for coming in here. It is great to have them here. It is my first time meeting the Taoiseach here at committee and I thank him for that. My questions are technical. They are on the budget and the numbers. I have a couple of more general questions that I will ask in the next session. I thought this was more confined to the numbers.

I have five or six questions. On page 2 of the summary note the Taoiseach gave for the Department of the Taoiseach, the outturn for 2024 was down between €4 million and €4.5 million. It was projected to be €37 million in 2024 and the outturn was actually €33 million. I wonder why that was down €4.5 million.

The Taoiseach:

That Vote relates to the commissions of inquiry. There is a variety of them on the go, so to speak. When you draw down the expenses or bills for those, they come at different times.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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It is primarily a timing issue then.

The Taoiseach:

Yes.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Okay. The second question is on the budget itself and the figures. On page 32, Vote 2, I wish to comment generally. This is a theme common to a lot of this document. We do not have 2024 data. Say, on page 32, the data on stuff like public service-----

The Taoiseach:

For which, did you say?

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Page 32, on the budget. I am also working with that full budget document, the 250-page document where the Votes are broken down. It is a general point I am making.

The Taoiseach:

The Deputy has the REV.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The whole budget book.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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The Revised Estimates Volume.

The Taoiseach:

I do not have that here with me but the Deputy can go ahead.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I have a general comment on it. It only has 2023 figures for a lot of the statistics on public policy impact, outcomes, growth, employment, income and poverty levels. It does not have 2024. As a general point, I have raised this issue on other Votes, where statistics are not up to date. We are seeing, 18 months later, the statistics for 2023. We should really be seeing 2024. It is not specific to the Department of the Taoiseach but generally, the statistics on the reports-----

The Taoiseach:

The REV would have been published towards the end of last year. That is the 2024 REV the Deputy is looking at it.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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So we do not have up-to-date figures.

The Taoiseach:

You would not have 2024 data in 2024.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Okay, if it was the end of 2024. I am not sure what date that was published.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I think it was the third week of December last year.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Okay. That answers that question. This comes up a good bit - Vote 4, page 36 on the REV - salary increase. I have seen that across Votes 5, 6 and 4, which I will bring to the Taoiseach's attention first. There is a 13% increase in salaries under Vote 4. Is there any particular reason for that?

The Taoiseach:

A public service pay award. That is the Vote for the Central Statistics Office, so that would include the conduct of the census.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Vote 4 - CSO.

The Taoiseach:

Yes, that would be the census.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I have the same question on Vote 5, where there is an increase of 16%. That is the office of the DPP.

The Taoiseach:

It sought additional staffing and over the last number of years would have advocated for significantly increased resources. When I was formerly Taoiseach, I would have received correspondence in respect of this. With regard to the conduct of justice and our criminal justice system, in my view it is important we would respond to that. It is increased staffing and there are pay agreements.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The same then for the Chief State Solicitor's office. That went up by a similar percentage, between 14% and 16%. Was it for the same reason?

The Taoiseach:

There were similar reasons. I will make a general point that historically we might have been penny-wise, pound-foolish in our approach to these agencies. I am of the view that the more efficient these bodies are, particularly in regard to the DPP and the Chief State Solicitor's office, the greater return to the State. With respect to the enormity of allocation in other Departments, we have to build really sustainable capacity in these organisations across the board.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach would expect to see increased outputs as a result. It is not just extra salaries.

The Taoiseach:

You would, that is fair. You would, and we are.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That makes sense.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I have one last question.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Very briefly.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Do all of those Departments review their spending every month?

The Taoiseach:

Yes.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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They do. Okay.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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That was lovely and succinct. Gabhaim buíochas libh. Bogaimid ar aghaidh le Teachta Burke.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Taoiseach for making time available to be with us this evening. With regard to the DPP budget, I see there is a 177% increase in the number of court dates in the Central Criminal Court. There is the fact that in 2019, there were 127 court dates in the Central Criminal Court and by 2024, those outside the Central Criminal Court were up by 572%; in other words, it was outside of the Dublin base. The biggest problem with the creation of efficiencies in the courts is how our Prison Service adapts to that. In fairness to the DPP, all of the State solicitors and the gardaí, it is a really efficient organisation but the end result is our prison system not being able to adapt accordingly. I wonder if that is a concern, if we continue to increase the efficiency. The briefing we have got here shows the increase in the number of staff in the DPP. The problem is the logjam that results with regard to the Prison Service. I wonder if there is co-ordination in dealing with that.

The Taoiseach:

In the first instance, the Deputy has acknowledged, to be fair, the enormous increases with respect to court cases, prosecutions and so on and yes, that does have an impact on the prison population. That is why the Minister for justice has sought and received Government approval for a significantly increased allocation in the short term to increase prison capacity because there is overcrowding in our prisons. There will have to be a medium-term programme with regard to prison expansion and a longer-term one as well. It reflects a significant growth in population over the last two decades. It has been very dramatic, certainly in the last 20 years. For the first time ever, the increase in population has meant that the island of Ireland is now above pre-Famine levels in population terms. That is impacting on all services. It may also be impacting in this area. The Deputy is predominantly right; there is a greater throughput so that will impact on the Prison Service. Not all of it necessarily has to, as the Deputy knows. There can be alternatives as well.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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Going back on the court dates, my apologies. There were 127 court dates of the Central Criminal Court outside of Dublin in 2019. By 2024, the number of court dates outside of Dublin was 854.

That moves me on to the issue of opening a DPP office in Cork. I assume it has to do with having more Central Criminal Court hearings outside Dublin. There is a provision in the budget for the opening of that office in Cork. When will that office be fully operational? Does that mean that, when it moves to Cork, State solicitors' roles within the county will be removed? In other words, it will all be focused in the DPP office in Cork.

The Taoiseach:

The movement of the DPP to Cork is reflective of the city's status as a growing regional city.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Be careful what you say.

The Taoiseach:

Bí cúramach anois.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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In fairness, we do have-----

The Taoiseach:

No, but every now and again, people want all sorts.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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We are doing our best for you, Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach:

You are doing your best. Fair play to you.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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We do have a very efficient Courts Service in Cork and the new courthouse-----

The Taoiseach:

I know. I remember that, when the new courts were built in the Model School, there were a lot of people objecting. They preferred the older, medieval buildings, but that comes from the legal profession from time to time.

To be serious, I will revert to the Minister for justice in respect of what his plans are for the State Solicitor's offices. I do not have a timeline, but I will endeavour to get that for the Deputy.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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There will be a permanent office for the DPP in Cork and it will be fully staffed with a view to handling cases, I presume, for the Munster region. Is that the plan for dealing with that?

The Taoiseach:

I will have to come back to the Deputy with the exact nature of the programmes.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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Okay. Just going back to-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Just very briefly, a Theachta.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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-----the appointment of additional judges, it means we are going to be increasing the throughput in the courts. We have increased the number of judges by, I think, 24.

The Taoiseach:

Yes.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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There is a proposal to increase it by a further 20. That means there is going to be an increase in volume and in the number of criminal cases that will be dealt with. It comes back to my original question about the capacity within the service to deal with the convictions and sentences after that. I am just wondering if the next three to four years of that have been thought out.

The Taoiseach:

The increase in judges is not just about criminal cases. It is right across the board, from commercial courts-----

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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I accept that.

The Taoiseach:

-----to environmental courts, and justice delayed is justice denied.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely.

The Taoiseach:

We were too low. As the Deputy said, the last Government took significant steps to increase the numbers, relatively speaking. Normally, there would two or three judges at a time, or just one, but we took a big decision-----

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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At one stage, there were 6,000-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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-----cases waiting for a hearing in the High Court in Cork.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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We are out of time.

The Taoiseach:

What I am saying is it is about efficiency and, in particular, the economic aspect. A lot of these decisions have big economic weight and impact, so more judges are justified on that basis to get greater throughput of cases.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat. Bogaimid ar aghaigh go dtí an Teachta Doherty agus ansin an Teachta McGreehan.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat. Cuirim fáilte roimh an Taoiseach. On Vote 2 for his Department, there is a small increase in travel and subsistence. Some of the Taoiseach's travel made it into the media recently. He has returned from a trip to Japan and he rebooked that trip home through Toronto. It is suggested that was on the basis of security advice. If that is the case, will he explain why he did not share the security advice with any of the media corps who were travelling? Were there no issues with their security?

The Taoiseach:

It is a nonsense story.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, but will the Taoiseach answer the question?

The Taoiseach:

I am, but it is important the context is made very clear. The story is suggesting there was a rescheduling to do with the match. There was not. The alternative would have had me in at midday and the way I went, I came in at 8 a.m. I had nothing to do with it. I do not book the travel, so it was a nonsense story.

In terms of security, remember that these were booked a week in advance. There are issues in the Middle East, as we all know, in terms of cancellation of flights and challenges. That was the precautionary approach those who were booking the flights took. That is it.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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So, it was on the basis of security advice.

The Taoiseach:

Yes.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Taoiseach know how many of the media travelled to Japan? Was it about ten or so?

The Taoiseach:

No, I do not think so. Was it?

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Did the Taoiseach's Department share-----

The Taoiseach:

I am not sure-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Hold on. Let me at least put the question.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Can we just have one voice at a time?

The Taoiseach:

Sorry, yes.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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What the Taoiseach has just told us is his Department had security advice not to fly into Dubai on the way home, so the flights were booked through Toronto at a cost to the taxpayer. There were media travelling with the Taoiseach and it appears his office never shared the security advice with members of the Irish media. Can he explain why? If there was security advice that there was a risk in him flying through Dubai, why would he not share that with other Irish citizens who were accompanying him on the trip?

The Taoiseach:

Two things. First of all, there was not an additional cost as a result of that, to my knowledge-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The flights through Toronto were free, were they?

The Taoiseach:

Do not be getting facetious.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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No. If there was no additional cost-----

The Taoiseach:

The flights on the other route would have been the same, roughly, so-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Did the Taoiseach not have two flights at that stage?

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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One speaker at a time.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Did the Taoiseach get a full refund on the original flights booked?

The Taoiseach:

I do not get involved in this.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

The Taoiseach:

I do not get into the minutiae of the routes.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach suggested there was no cost. It appears from the story that he booked flights back through Dubai-----

The Taoiseach:

I am not responsible for this.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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-----and then there were other flights booked. Therefore, there would have been an additional cost.

The Taoiseach:

No, there were not other flights booked. I am not responsible for the story. The Deputy can appreciate that. The story was all about the match and-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking about the security advice. Will the Taoiseach go back to the core question of why his Department did not share the concerns it had about his travel through Dubai with members of the Irish press corps who did travel through Dubai?

The Taoiseach:

Any journalist who is sent out by his or her media organisation takes his or her own advices. Journalists organise their own travel and so forth. The people who were organising it on my behalf took a view that the Middle East was problematic in terms of cancellations and activity there, potentially, and therefore took this route. That is what I have been told.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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It is a bit bizarre because the Taoiseach's Department gave out information on travel like what trains to book and so on, but not on a security risk over the flight back. As the Taoiseach mentioned, it was more about cancellation as opposed to anything personally happening to him. The story suggests that, out of an abundance of caution, the Taoiseach flew through Toronto because there was a risk of cancellation and, therefore, he would miss the match. That is what the story says.

The Taoiseach:

Hold on now.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is what the story says. The Taoiseach makes the point that there was no additional cost. Can he confirm that with the Department? Has it provided the figure for the additional cost? Obviously, there had to be an additional cost. Is it not the case there were flights already booked home through Dubai and then the Department booked other flights through Toronto? Can the Taoiseach outline the costs associated with his party of seven?

The Taoiseach:

The Deputy has made an assertion again that is wrong.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I said the story was about the flight. That is what the story is.

The Taoiseach:

No, you said it was about the match.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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No, I said the story-----

The Taoiseach:

You did. You did say it in your last comment. I unequivocally and categorically say that the truth does matter in these matters. This had nothing to do with the match. The match was on at 5 p.m. that day, so either route would have had me in at 8 a.m. or midday, so-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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You made the point there was a risk of cancellation.

The Taoiseach:

-----I did not get-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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You made the point there was a risk of cancellation.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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We are low on time.

The Taoiseach:

No, you are conflating-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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One speaker at a time and we are low on time.

The Taoiseach:

The Deputy is conflating and this has nothing to do with budgets or anything. It is just political you-know-what, stirring it up. That is what the Deputy is at and it is regrettable.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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We are wrapping this up.

The Taoiseach:

I want to say this much-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Can the Taoiseach answer the question?

The Taoiseach:

I will. It was to mitigate any risk of flight cancellations generally. It had nothing to do-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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If the flight was cancelled, the Taoiseach would have missed the match.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agaibh.

The Taoiseach:

Rubbish. Rubbish.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agaibh.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is a fact.

The Taoiseach:

It is not.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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A Theachta Doherty, your time is up.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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If the flight was cancelled, Taoiseach,-----

The Taoiseach:

You are stirring it as usual.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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-----you would have missed the match.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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One moment.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is a simple fact.

The Taoiseach:

No,-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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There is only one speaker at a time-----

The Taoiseach:

-----because the security situation-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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-----and your times are up.

The Taoiseach:

-----had already resulted in extensive Middle East airspace being closed in the days prior to this being booked, so-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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How much did it cost?

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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We are out of time.

The Taoiseach:

You are the official, now-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I have asked the question numerous times. How much-----

The Taoiseach:

But you will not listen because you are not asking questions. You are asserting falsehoods.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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You are not willing to answer the question.

The Taoiseach:

You are asserting falsehoods, Deputy,-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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A Theachta and a Thaoisigh-----

The Taoiseach:

-----you will not allow a reasonable, rational explanation to be given and you are making assertions that are-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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We heard your explanation. This is the Estimates-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry, now. You are both out of time.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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With respect, Chair-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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You are both out of time.

The Taoiseach:

The Deputy is not giving me a chance to answer the thing.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Can the Taoiseach please outline to the committee-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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You are both out of time.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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-----the additional cost involved in bookings for Toronto?

The Taoiseach:

I do not have the costs.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Taoiseach provide them to the committee?

The Taoiseach:

We can do that, no problem. The final costs-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Perfect.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Without delay, please.

The Taoiseach:

The final costs have not been reconciled.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Bogaimid ar aghaigh go dtí an Teachta McGreehan.

The Taoiseach:

I am sorry, but could I just say that the final costs will be included in the Department's foreign travel report published on gov.ie, as we always do.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat, a Thaoisigh.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking the Taoiseach to provide them to the committee without delay.

The Taoiseach:

I know, but I ask the Deputy to withdraw the assertion that there was any implication we changed-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I am not withdrawing the assertion.

The Taoiseach:

Well, you should.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The assertion was the story in the media was that you travelled through Toronto-----

The Taoiseach:

It is a false-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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-----because there was a risk your original flight would be cancelled,-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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A Theachta agus a Thaoisigh-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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-----and if your original flight was cancelled-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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A Theachta, your time is up.

The Taoiseach:

No.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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-----you would have missed the match.

The Taoiseach:

That is a false-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Your time is up.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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What I want to know is how much did the taxpayer pay for that.

The Taoiseach:

That is a false assertion.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Your time is up.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is not my story; it is the media's.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but your time is up.

The Taoiseach:

You are articulating a false story deliberately.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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The time is up.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I am stating a fact.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Both your times are up.

The Taoiseach:

No you are not. It is outrageous.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The fact is that the story was written.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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A chairde, both your times are up and we are now moving on to an Teachta McGreehan.

The Taoiseach:

Bad stuff. Just very poor politics.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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We are moving on to an Teachta McGreehan. If you do not stop, I will not have time-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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It is bad that you do not have the answer as to how much it cost.

The Taoiseach:

One week on?

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I am going to have to turn off your mics. I call on an Teachta McGreehan.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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We are finished with Deputy Doherty's clickbait. Good man. We will move on. My question is about the NESC. This is obviously budgeted from last year, but I am looking towards the future as to what is planned for next year for the NESC and its works. I am looking at its subgroups and what Deputy Ged Nash spoke about earlier, including child poverty and disability. I know there has been a huge emphasis on disability in the programme for Government. What will the NESC advise those subcommittees in the year coming?

The Taoiseach:

It is covering six main areas, including Ireland's future power system and economic resilience. That is investigating the impact of renewable targets in four areas: economic and enterprise opportunities, reliability of supply, energy costs and the export potential. It is working on deepening compact growth in Ireland, connecting people to the energy transition, international trade dependencies, the energy transition, and carrying and delivery capacity. That is done in collaboration with the National Competitiveness and Productivity Council. That will look at ways Ireland could improve its long-term planning provision and delivery capacity, particularly in housing, infrastructure, healthcare and other services. On artificial intelligence, this work will include a focus on AI adoption and its impact on Irish public services and the labour market. It will focus on issues such as transparency, ethics and equity and will help build public trust and confidence around the challenges and opportunities of AI and hybrid and remote working. This project will explore the evolution and impact on remote and hybrid working in Ireland since 2020. It will commence in quarter 3 of this year. It is expected to conclude in 2026. The small increase in the subhead is mainly to provide for pay increases due in 2025 under the current public sector pay agreement and for pensions and payments for NESDO employees retiring in 2025.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Going on the very important subcommittees of the Department of the Taoiseach, and looking at the extra staff or personnel or expertise the Taoiseach is bringing in, in particular on the disability committee, the costs that are involved in those experts obviously come out of the Department. Is the Department hiring in those experts?

The Taoiseach:

On disability?

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I refer specifically to the disability group because, as I said, it is a hugely important part of our programme for Government. We want to make huge changes right across all of government as to how we deal with disabilities and support people. How are the experts being supported in coming in to give the Taoiseach advice on that subcommittee?

The Taoiseach:

The disability unit within the Department of the Taoiseach will be made up of public servants, will be led by a principal officer and is resourced within the social policy and public service reform division at present. Expressions of interest have been sought for additional staff, who will be assigned shortly to deliver on the commitment in the programme for Government. The unit will be made up of staff within the public service more generally. Obviously it will then co-ordinate with other Government Departments and with non-governmental organisations and stakeholders involved in the disability field with a view to getting their perspectives on a whole range of issues to do with disability.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat, a Thaoisigh. We have to finish at 4.44 p.m. I will let an Teachta McGreehan in first the next time. I thank the Taoiseach and his officials for assisting the committee with our consideration of the Revised Estimates. Go raibh míle maith agaibh go léir. That concludes the select committee's business in public session for today. The select committee stands adjourned. Later today, the joint committee will meet in public session at 4.50 p.m. in committee room 3 to engage with An Taoiseach.