Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I have received apologies from Deputy Butterly. I advise members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. The committee welcomes this engagement with the Minister, Deputy Browne, the first since the committee was formed and he took up his role. In our recent meetings the committee has discussed several issues that exist in respect of the challenges facing the delivery of housing in the country. I am pleased that we have an opportunity to consider the priorities of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage with the Minister. I also welcome the Minister of State, Deputy John Cummins, who has responsibility for local government and planning and the Minister of State, Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan, who has responsibility for nature, heritage and biodiversity.

I also welcome the following officials from the Department: Ms Caroline Timmons, assistant secretary with responsibility for housing policy and affordable housing; Mr. David Kelly, assistant secretary with responsibility for rental and social inclusion; and Mr. Paul Hogan, assistant secretary with responsibility for planning.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to another person in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present, or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts, is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction. The opening statement has been circulated to members. I invite the Minister to make his opening remarks.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you very much, a Chathaoirligh. I thank Deputies and Senators for the opportunity to say a few words here today.

I am committed to addressing the challenges of securing a housing system that meets the needs of society. Building new homes is a key priority and we must use every means available to do so. I will set out what we are doing to build on the achievements of Housing for All. All of our efforts are focused on increasing the supply and delivery of 300,000 new homes between 2025 and 2030.

The record level of investment in housing delivery in 2025, with overall capital funding of almost €6.8 billion now available, is a demonstration of my determination and that of the Government.

Key to achieving those targets will be the delivery of new apartment developments in our cities and urban cores. Recent changes announced to rent pressure zones are expected to attract private investment back into the Irish rental sector. Increased supply of much-needed apartments for the private rental sector will follow. The measures strike a fair balance and provide much-needed certainty for everyone. Since 20 June 2025, all renters everywhere in Ireland enjoy the same protection, security and certainty following the enactment of the Residential Tenancies (Amendment) Act 2025. I have moved swiftly to implement national rent controls, expanding the rent pressure zone framework across the entire country, in advance of sweeping changes to our rental system and a strengthening of rental rights from March 2026.

Addressing homelessness is also a key priority. I am acutely aware of the profound impact homelessness has on individuals, particularly children. In that context, there has been a concerted effort to increase homelessness preventions and exits. In 2024, almost 9,000 adult preventions and exits were achieved, an increase of almost 30% on 2023. In the first quarter of 2025, more than 1,600 adult preventions and exits were achieved. Funding of €303 million is available for the delivery of homeless services in 2025. This funding supports the provision of emergency accommodation and wraparound supports. In addition, capital funding of €25 million will support the delivery of high-quality transitional and emergency accommodation for individuals experiencing homelessness. The programme for Government includes additional measures the Government will take to address homelessness, including expanding Housing First. However, it is clear that more needs to be done. My Department is engaging with local authorities on the need to increase exits from emergency accommodation. This is being supported by investment in new social housing stock.

With regard to social housing, almost 50,000 social homes have been delivered in the last five years. Including HAP and RAS, 20,292 social housing solutions were delivered during 2024 alone. This increased supply of social housing is supporting the increased allocation of homes to households on the social housing waiting list, including households in emergency accommodation. There is also a very strong pipeline, with over 24,000 social homes at all stages of design and build across the country, which will be delivered over the coming years. The Government has also introduced a range of measures in recent months that will ensure we are in a position to continue the State’s largest ever social and affordable housing programme and to increase housing supply across all types of tenure. Last week, I announced that we are introducing a single-stage approval process for all social housing projects costing under €200 million in order to increase and speed up the delivery of new homes. Furthermore, to ensure that social housing projects offer value for money and to promote greater use of modern methods of construction, I will also be mandating the use of specific design layouts and specifications for all new-build social housing projects. It is expected that these new arrangements will become operational in quarter 3 of this year.

Turning to affordable housing, from the launch of Housing for All to December 2024, nearly 13,000 supports have been delivered by approved housing bodies, local authorities and the Land Development Agency alongside schemes such as the first home scheme and the vacant property refurbishment grant. Furthermore, the Government has recently agreed to an expansion of the remit of the Land Development Agency to support the delivery of housing. This includes unlocking key strategic public lands for urban brownfield delivery through infrastructure investment.

The revised national planning framework provides the basis for the review and updating of regional spatial and economic strategies and local authority development plans. I have already written to local authorities advising them to start the process of reviewing and updating their development plans to align with the revised NPF.

As part of the implementation of the Planning and Development Act 2024, new urban development zones will enable further housing development. I have signed an order that will enable local authorities to identify suitable sites for UDZs with work to begin as soon as possible. Further to this, the Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill 2025 was approved by Cabinet for priority drafting on 27 May, which will ensure sufficient time is given to activate planning permissions for much-needed housing across the country. It is intended to have the Bill enacted before the summer recess.

The new planning design standards for apartments, guidelines for planning authorities 2025, which were brought to Cabinet this morning, set out guidance, standards and policy requirements in respect of the design of apartment developments. These guidelines will assist in addressing viability constraints and promote the increased delivery of apartments while safeguarding standards to address the growing need to supply a greater range of housing types to meet the needs of our citizens. All of these measures are about getting things moving and ensuring we do not lose out on important developments and that the many planning permissions granted to date are realised and increase housing supply.

The Government is also investing record levels of capital funding in critical infrastructure, including in water. Uisce Éireann has ramped up capital delivery for water services and infrastructure with funding for the organisation increasing from €300 million in 2014 to just over €2.2 billion in 2025. The programme for Government also commits to investing additional capital in Uisce Éireann under the revised national development plan, which is to be finalised by July of this year. I am also establishing a housing activation office in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, which will identify and address barriers to the delivery of public infrastructure projects needed to enable housing development at local level through the alignment of funding and co-ordination of infrastructure providers.

The new national housing plan, which will be underpinned by the required funding under the national development plan, will focus on policies and structures that set us on a sustainable and resilient footing as we seek to secure a long-term pipeline of delivery and funding to 2030 and beyond. I look forward to today's discussion.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I will now invite members to discuss issues with the three Ministers and the representatives from the Department. I again remind members to direct questions to the person they would like an answer from. We will have six minutes each. We will do a full round and then go back around again. I have been very generous with the six minutes in recent meetings. It has been turning into eight or nine minutes. Everyone talks for four minutes and then asks questions for another minute. If people want answers, they should ask questions directly.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Cathaoirleach's directions are duly noted. I thank the Minister, Deputy Browne, the Ministers of State, Deputies O'Sullivan and Cummins, and the officials from the Department for coming in. I have a number of questions. I will ask three initially. I hope I will have time to come back in with the others. I thank the Minister for his opening statement, which was very informative. I will go straight to the questions because we are caught for time.

The Minister has been very careful as regards predicting housing output for 2025 but does he broadly agree with the revised estimates from the ESRI and the Central Bank regarding housing output for 2025? When will the Minister publish an updated housing plan? We are currently spending approximately €6.8 billion of public funds on housing. What is the Minister asking for under the national development plan review? How much does he hope to achieve? How much does he feel is necessary to address the housing emergency we have? I will leave it at that for now. I hope to have time to come back in.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy McGrath for his questions. On housing output, we had obviously hoped for a much higher output last year. Everybody was disappointed with the final outturn. A lot of effort and record funding had been put in for housing delivery. We did see a significant increase in the number of commencement notices. There is a sense that many developers and builders may have turned their attention to further commencements rather than finalising the projects they were working on at the time. Nonetheless, it was very disappointing, especially for the people who had hoped to have those homes. We are coming off a much lower base this year than we would have expected or hoped for. As a result, we have seen a number of predictions, including the one from the ESRI. Predictions from different bodies have been fairly consistent at a figure in the low 30,000s. It is difficult to disagree with that level of consistency. It would be exceptionally difficult to reach the target set out for this year when we are coming from such a low base. At this stage of the year, we are certainly continuing to drive output as high as we can. That is our aim. That is why we have provided record funding of €6.8 billion for housing delivery this year.

We are currently working on the housing plan and a significant amount of work has gone into it already.

However, it is simple common sense that we cannot finalise or publish the housing plan until the national development plan is finalised. The capital funding granted to the Department of housing and to other Departments, such as funding to the Department of the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, for the grid, etc., will play a crucial role in how we set out our targets and what we aim to do. The Government has made it clear that housing is the number one priority. That will be the case in the national development plan as well. We will be spending record funding of €6.8 billion on housing delivery this year. That figure is to date and I expect there will be further funding on top of that. I cannot say at this point what that funding will be, but we are striving to get the maximum amount of funding we can for direct housing delivery but also for the utility supports around the delivery of housing, such as water, ESB Networks, the grid and road infrastructure.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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When does the Minister hope to publish the over the shop incentive scheme that is in the programme for Government? The Minister is well aware of the effectiveness of the tenant in situ scheme in preventing homelessness. Will there be additional funding allocated for the scheme this year, given that many local authorities have financial difficulties? When will the Minister give local authorities their exact targets under the national planning framework? I ask him to be specific on that as they are eagerly awaited. The Minister has heard me speak before about the need for a significant uplift in the targets for affordable housing. He knows full well the cohort of people who are above the social housing limits but not in a position to secure homeownership in their own right. We need to significantly increase the affordable housing targets in the new plan. I ask him to give us some hope that will be a key feature in the new plan so we can give hope to our constituents who are in touch with us on a regular basis on affordable housing.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We are finalising our proposal on the over the shop scheme and what it will look like. We are engaging with the Department of public expenditure and reform. The work that has been done across the country to tackle vacancy and dereliction has been impressive. Local authorities have embraced it, as have people living in our cities and towns. The over the shop scheme is the next piece. In provincial towns and the cities there are a lot of commercial properties that will never return to high street retail-type shops. When people stopped living above shops, they took out the entrance stairs and things like that, so there will be additional costs. I expect to have that finalised soon with a higher grant for those doing over-the-shop work rather than vacant residential properties.

The tenant in situ scheme has been and continues to be a vital programme in preventing people becoming homeless. It was introduced when the eviction ban was being lifted. It was brought back as a temporary measure to alleviate the situation where people are at risk of becoming homeless. It does have the benefit of adding to the housing stock. However, it does involve significant funding and does not increase the overall housing stock for the country; it only increases it for the local authority. It is vital for those people who are prevented from becoming homeless, however. When I became the Minister for housing, there was only €60 million in the pot for the tenant in situ scheme. We managed to secure significant additional funding from the Minister, Deputy Chambers, to increase the funding available. However, with local authorities' applications having been forward agreed in anticipation of getting funding, it meant a lot of the funding had been spent by the time it was awarded. That left several local authorities in trouble. I continue to work with the Department of public expenditure and reform to see if additional funding can be secured. I am aware of the funding limits we have. We do need to maximise increasing our stock, in particular our social housing stock.

On the affordable housing targets, it is important to get the right mix - social housing, cost-rental and affordable purchase - where everyone can have access to a house they can afford within their means.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That is exactly what the Minister and his colleagues in Cabinet have done today. For the third time, a Minister from a Fianna Fáil-Fine Gael Government has brought forward regulations to undermine and reduce standards in apartments. I read this document earlier today. People need to be clear that what it allows for is smaller, darker apartments with fewer amenities in sub-optimally planned residential developments. The irony is these will be the most expensive apartments because they will have no protections whatsoever as the Government guts rent pressure zones. It will also push up land values. I am sure the Minister's officials have advised him that increasing the density on a plot increases the price of the land and that will impact on viability. The Government is now also creating huge uncertainty in the development and planning communities at the very time when large-scale residential developments had led a to reduction in legal challenges and an acceleration of planning permissions. I do not understand the claim the Minister made in his press release, albeit with some caveats, that these changes will in some cases result in a reduction in the cost per unit of between €50,000 and €100,000. When I look at the report from his Department and the SCSI, I do not see any set of scenarios where reducing the square meterage or the volume of one-bedroom apartments and studios will allow him to make those sort of savings. I invite the Minister to not regurgitate his press release, which I have read, but to explain to us as a committee how these changes can result in a cost reduction of between €50,000 and €100,000 on the delivery of a unit in any scenario, given that the construction component of the all-in development cost is about half that amount. I ask the Minister to convince us this is possible. I do not believe it is possible and I think he will have difficulty explaining it.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I agree the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again. That is why we are bringing radical change to how we deliver housing in this country and in particular how we facilitate the private sector. Right now the State is delivering 50% of all homes, more or less. We are delivering-----

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I would appreciate it if the Minister stuck to the question I asked. We have three minutes. It is a very short amount of time. Can he explain how he will achieve a saving of €50,000 to €100,000. It is a simple question.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I am addressing Deputy Ó Broin's full question.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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That is the only question I asked. I have asked one question.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I will give context to the question.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I do not need context. I would like the Minister not to talk down the clock-----

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I know Deputy Ó Broin does not like it.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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-----but, rather, to answer the question.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I know Deputy Ó Broin does not like it, but he has to listen to me.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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No, I do not. This is questions to the Minister.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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If Deputy Ó Broin wants to hear me, he has to listen.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Can the Minister explain the cost reductions of €50,000 to €100,000 per unit? Is the Minister able to explain it in front of this committee? I do not believe he is.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I am well able to explain it.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I will allow time for the Minister to explain it.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We are bringing radical change to how we deliver housing. If we are going to go from 30,000 to 50,000 or 60,000 homes, we have to activate the private sector. That is what we have been doing. We have extended existing planning permissions. The Minister of State, Deputy Cummins, is undertaking work on planning exemptions to free work up. In terms of the savings, we are going to see a significant increase in the number of units that can be put onto the one box unit. That is how we will be able to reduce the costs. We are going to do that over the next-----

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I would like the Minister to explain how that will happen. His statement is very clear. It states that there will be an average cost reduction of €50,000 to €100,000 per unit. How will he reduce the all-in construction cost by reducing the size by between 3 sq. m and 7 sq. m? Can he explain that to us?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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By being able to provide more units onto the existing footprint of an apartment block.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Minister to talk me through the numbers. They do not stack up. His own Department's report states that reducing the size by between 3 sq. m and 7 sq. m saves about €9,000 per unit.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We are doing a lot more than that and Deputy Ó Broin is aware of that. It is not simply based around the square meterage of studios. We are also removing the mandatory mix that has been there. This will allow more units onto a square footage. We are also addressing the areas around lifts and hallways. When you add it all up, including staircases, the number of lifts, etc., you will get a lot more units onto the envelope of an apartment block. When you then divide that back down, you will find that there are significant savings-----

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister have data that confirms this?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The key thing here is it addresses the viability piece and therefore we will be able to increase-----

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister have actual data that confirms this?

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Let the Minister finish, Deputy Ó Broin, and I will give you time to come back in.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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With the greatest of respect, Chair, it is my question time. Does the Minister have data that sets this out in numbers that he is willing to share with this committee? I do not believe him.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy does not have to believe me.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister can prove it to us by sharing with us his analysis and data. Does he have that data?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Of course.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Have his officials done an analysis where they have shown, in each of the areas of development cost, what the cost reduction per unit is in an actual scheme? If so, will he share it with this committee so we can scrutinise it?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We have data. We have worked on that data. That is from where we have come up with the figures. We have done an analysis of the data-----

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister share that with this committee and publish it today?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I have no difficulty with sharing the data.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister share it with us today? His officials would be able to do that during the course of the meeting.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I have no difficulty with sharing that data. That is what we will do.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Will he share it with this committee today while we are in session? Any one of his officials can contact the relevant person in the Custom House and have it sent across.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We will arrange for that data to be shared.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Today?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Not in the middle of a session. I am not doing that, no.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. When will he share it with the committee?

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Can I ask for that a commitment be given to provide that data to the committee, so we can-----

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We will happily provide that data. We will publish it. There is no difficulty with that. That data will be made available.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Do you want to ask another question, Deputy Ó Broin?

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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My time is up and I am conscious it is a tight session for everybody.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I am conscious that I cut into the Deputy's time.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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That is okay. I am happy.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank everyone for coming to the meeting. To fix the housing crisis, the Minister said he would need to be radical and take risks and that he is determined to use every opportunity to drive on the delivery of homes. I compliment him on that. The main blockage to the Government delivering homes is probably the lack of wastewater infrastructure. Its delivery is shockingly slow and for rural towns and villages across the country, it will unfortunately take years and decades. I have proposed one solution several times, both in committees and the Dáil. It is a certified, modular, wastewater system that is totally different from the old developer-led systems. The Housing Agency and the Land Development Agency both agree they would be happy to look at the potential of such systems. As a radical solution to significant blockages to housing delivery and for the 33% of the population that lives in rural areas, towns and villages, will the Minister support the use of such systems in the delivery of social and affordable housing by local authorities?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. As a TD who comes from a rural constituency, I am acutely aware of the necessity for providing water supports in rural Ireland for our villages and provincial towns. We are providing record funding to Uisce Éireann this year. It has increased from €300 million a year to €2.2 billion this year. We will be providing it with even more funding under the national development plan.

In particular, we are providing ring-fenced funding for the delivery of housing because that has been a challenge to date and we want to ensure the funding we are providing to Uisce Éireann is for the delivery of housing in our cities and towns while also facilitating housing in our rural areas. One of the critical issues in that regard is facilitating developer-led wastewater treatment schemes so they can help deliver the capacity we need, albeit overseen, accredited and ultimately taken over by Uisce Éireann. With the knowledge and expertise we have, we can do that in a safe and structured manner. The developers who can move quickly and are able to provide facilities to advance our housing delivery are really important.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is saying today he will support that and he will tell Uisce Éireann, which is getting fantastic funding from the Government, that we need those wastewater treatment systems delivered in rural villages and towns that do not have the infrastructure and are dying on their feet. Shops and post offices are closing and school numbers are dropping. We are being assured today that, yes, Uisce Éireann will deliver those into the future,

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Uisce Éireann will have the funding to deliver those types of schemes but we also have to facilitate the developers because there are 400-plus villages in that position. If we were waiting for Uisce Éireann to get to every one of them, even if it had the funding, it would take a considerable period. It requires a dual approach, one in which Uisce Éireann does it while also facilitating developers that want to deliver housing in those rural areas and can do so safely.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Given the length of time it is taking - years and sometimes decades - to get planning for critical water infrastructure, should there be a dedicated, fast-tracked planning stream to put treatment plants in place?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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One of the challenges we have with water is that in many cases the issue is not actually a planning one but an environmental law issue. Most of our environmental laws come from the European Union and we are, unfortunately or fortunately depending on one's view, quite constrained in how we apply them. The environmental rules are very important. When schemes are held up in planning, it is often the environmental side that is the cause rather than the planning processes.

We will streamline processes as much as possible. For example, where we can apply exemptions, they will be applied. Those may be exemptions for what can be put in but, of more relevance, will be increasing the exemptions for the capacity when something is being put in without the need for planning permission. The environmental side is very difficult to get around. We are in an environmental crisis. We have seen the consequences of not treating the environment correctly in the past and we have to treat it correctly now.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I see the Minister's point but we need to put some system in place to try to help and support the rural villages that badly need these treatment systems in place.

Will the Minister give an update on planning exemptions for the stand-alone structures and extensions up to 40 sq. m to the rear of houses? When will these works get the go-ahead? It is a great move, which is vitally important for big families. We hope the Minister can fast-track that.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I will answer the Deputy's question. The Department has undertaken a wide review of exempted developments. All Departments have fed into that process. We have not had updated exempted development regulations for the past 25 years. As such, this is an extensive body of work and it is not only related to modular homes to the rear of a dwelling. It relates to all exempted development regulations. It is hoped we will publish a paper on this, for public display, in the next week or two. It will be commenced later in the year when Part 4 of the 2024 Act is implemented. It may be necessary to bring forward a couple of separate measures to deal with slurry storage and the modular units to the rear. That will be discussed with the joint committee because those exempted development regulations have to be laid before this committee.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State referred to it being public display. How long will it be on public display and how will it work after that?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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It will be out for public consultation for a period of four weeks. We hope to go out in the next couple of weeks on that.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Is it possible to have this legislation passed before the end of the year?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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We hope to have the exempted development regulations in place by the end of the year, yes.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I have a number of questions to which I would really appreciate short answers. A yes or no is fine. Has an assessment been undertaken of the reduced light and space in the new regulations on the liveability of apartment units? Could they answer that please?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of what kind of assessment does the Deputy want-----

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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In terms of the liveability of the units.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We have given very careful consideration to all the proposals around the change of specifications for apartments in terms of its impact, in particular, how it would reduce the cost of delivery of apartments across the country, specifically in the cities,

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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In relation to light and space, has an impact study been done on that and how it will be to live in these apartments?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We have given careful consideration to all of these decisions, including dual aspect, the windows and all of the size requirements.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Will the Minister provide that analysis to the committee?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We have given careful consideration to all of this.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Did the Department do an analysis of that?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I am not sure what kind of analysis the Deputy is referring to. We do a lot of different analyses.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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You would get an architect or someone like that to determine whether this impacts on the liveability of these units in terms of light and space. What would reducing a studio size further mean?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We have done a careful analysis of these. We compared our own standards with general European standards. We saw that our standards were the highest in Europe, in our opinion, and we made the judgment call that we needed to change the specifications so they would be more in line with those in Europe and, in particular, to increase viability. Having the highest specifications for apartments that will never be built and will never get off the plans is completely pointless.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Okay. I take that as a "No".

Has the Department undertaken a risk analysis of the potential of this delaying projects that have planning permission as developers go for new planning permissions under the new regulations?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I gave careful consideration to any delays there may be. We have close to 50,000 existing planning permissions. We considered what the impact may be if people considered going back in for changes of planning permission. That is why we worked closely with the Attorney General and came up with a proposal whereby most of these changes to specifications can be made within the envelope of the existing planning permission without the necessity to go for additional planning permission. In some cases, they will have to do so but that will streamline any delays. Without addressing the viability issue, we have-----

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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The Minister is saying developers will be able to increase the size and increase the number of units under current planning permissions that they have.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, without the-----

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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They will also be able to remove communal spaces and remove community requirements. Developer will be able to make all these changes under existing planning permissions they have.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Developers will have to comply with all building regulations, as they do now, but they retain within the existing envelope of the planning permission they have the ability to change the specifications within that building. That will allay the Deputy's fears and concerns about the delays in delivering on these existing planning permissions.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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That raises a wider issue of implications and contradictions with local development plans, which we saw Dublin City Council raise last night, regarding the requirement for community and communal spaces. Has the Minister looked at that potentially contravening those requirements?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It does not refer to communal spaces. It refers to cultural spaces, whereby Dublin City Council put an effective levy on developers being granted planning permission, which added a significant cost to the delivery of these units and is, in turn, being passed on to renters and home purchasers. In such circumstances, when the developer still goes ahead with the project, it also impacts on viability and we are having a serious issue in that respect.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Regarding the public-private partnership projects, bundle 3, is it true that legal proceedings were initiated by the preferred bidder?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I am not personally aware of any legal proceedings initiated by the preferred bidder.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Is the Department or are officials aware of any?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We went through all current legal proceedings at Cabinet this morning and no-----

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Are the Department officials saying "Yes" or "No"? Are they aware of any?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I am not aware of any legal proceedings having been issued against the Department.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Okay. It would be incredible if that were to come out later and the Department was actually aware of legal proceedings regarding the preferred bidder. Are the Department officials aware?

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Department officials cannot answer questions in public session. The Minister said it. They can speak but not directly to the Deputy.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I appreciate that. We will take that as a "No", that there is no awareness of that. Will the Minister clarify that Dublin City Council and local authorities will be guaranteed the funding to develop the public-private partnership projects as design and build, and there will be no impact on delays? The allocation from PPP funding is over a 25-year period, so it will require an additional allocation.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We are determined to get these much-needed properties and social homes delivered. We are now looking at the alternative methodologies for doing so. We have not reached a conclusion on what that method will be. That is what we are working through at the moment.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Can the Minister guarantee that the capital allocation will be there when the local authorities come forward with design and build proposals? It will be higher than what was set aside in the annual budgets for them being delivered as PPPs, because it is over 25 years, so it will require more capital up-front.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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What I can guarantee is that we will deliver these social homes. We have not reached a conclusion on what the method will be.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Will there be an impact on timeframes?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Of course there will be an impact on timeframes. That has already happened as a result of my decision not to proceed with this PPP. No doubt, if I had, I would not be in a meeting if this committee but at the Committee of Public Accounts answering for the sheer cost.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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What impact will there be on timelines?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We are assessing that but I intend it to be as short as possible because I am conscious that these are homes that people need as quickly as possible. There is nothing to prevent Dublin City Council or any other local authority from coming up with additional proposals and driving forward with other proposals for social housing. This is not all duck or no dinner for these local authorities. I encourage them to proceed with more additional applications for social and affordable housing.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Apologies have been received from the Minister of State, Deputy John Cummins, who is attending the Dáil.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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I welcome the single-stage approval. The lobbyists have been calling for that here for years. I welcome the measure to identify urban development zones. That is the easy bit.

I turn to apartments for a second. Has the Minister ever lived in an apartment that was 32 sq. m? I have not. I lived in a two-bedroom house that was 56 sq. m, which had a small back garden, a very small back yard and a very small front garden, and there was daylight. A total of 32 sq. m is absolutely tiny and the amount of light going into the apartment could be reduced. During the Celtic tiger, we lost sight of quality of life. The Minister's party was in power during that time and there was no focus on quality of life. Are we going through the same thing again? The justification for it is that the apartments are not being built and the developers are walking away, but between June 2023 and March 2024 the number of rental units increased by over 16,000, or 8%. The figures do not seem to stack up. Has the Department sought or done research on the profits of companies that are building apartments? Are the developers losing money or making money? Are they all pauperised or is this just the Construction Industry Federation coming in and looking for more money?

My second question is about students. Aspects of the recent measure that was announced regarding rents are okay in that it could provide some certainty. The problem is changing tenancies. That is what the Minister forgot about. When tenancies are changing, the price of the rent of the unit can be increased significantly. The Minister and I, and everybody else in this room, know that tenancies in the private rented sector change very quickly, and that is separate from students. Unfortunately, students are all out after nine months and have to come back in September to try to acquire another apartment to rent. Can the Minister guarantee that he will provide some measure to protect students? While many people have been forgotten about, students have definitely been forgotten about.

The Minister of State, Deputy Cummins, has left. I raised this issue with him. The Minister has heard me raising it and I raised it with his predecessor, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, too. I think I have some grey hairs on my head from raising it with him. I have also raised it with the Secretary General of the Department, Graham Doyle, at the Committee of Public Accounts. The issue is the need for copy and paste plans. If there is a good design in Wexford, it is okay to build affordable or social housing in Laois to that design. That is how it was done before. Up to 15% of the cost is being added on for the cost of architects. That is what senior staff at local authorities tell us. Let us reduce the costs and speed up. I do not mean to do that in a shambolic way. However, anybody who makes anything, including housing, will tell you that you mass produce. That is what Cairn Homes and so on are doing. They might change the look of the porch, but the homes are basically the same unit. The Minister needs to do the same thing. When representatives of the City and County Management Association were here, they contradicted the Minister of State, Deputy Cummins. They said it is not being used but the Minister of State assured me it is being used.

My last question relates to over-shop units. Over-shop units are going to be very hard to do in many cases because of various issues, including soundproofing, wooden floors, stairs being pulled out, as the Minister mentioned, and fire risks. There are real fire risks. Many of those buildings are three-storey old buildings. They are tinder boxes. Many are beyond repair or difficult to repair. Many have large back gardens and many need to be demolished. The back gardens need to be utilised to create a new small street of maybe six, eight or nine houses. Many have over an acre behind them. Instead of trying to modernise something that is basically a pile of rubble, why are we not trying to create new streets to get people back living in the centre of towns?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. Regarding the single-stage process, I welcome the Deputy's welcome for it.

I know he has raised this an endless number of times in the Dáil. He has championed this issue for a long time. Alongside that, the Department of housing’s housing manual made it mandatory for local authorities to use those designs that will standardise design. As the Deputy will know-----

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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We need standardised plans rather than just designs. Mr. Graham Doyle keeps repeating that to me. We need standardised plans that we can copy and paste. Give the architect royalties for using their plan each time.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It is now mandatory for local authorities to use the plans we have designed in the Department of housing. To deliver housing on the scale we did in the past, the Deputy is 100% right. We need to see the local authorities in Laois, Wexford and Donegal using similar plans for houses. That will also help modern methods of construction, MMC, because those companies will know what they are now designing for, rather than there being a vernacular for every local authority. There will be consistency. I hope private industry will copy these designs as well when going for planning permission because these are high-specification and high-standard designs.

In respect of apartments, we only have to look at the numbers. We have seen a collapse in the delivery of apartments.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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What are the profit margins of the companies registered with the CRO?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Almost 50,000 apartments are not being commenced.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Are the developers going bankrupt or losing money? What is the Minister's analysis?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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They are not building, Deputy. If there was profit there, they would be building.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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That is a different question.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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They do not need to go bankrupt as proof that they will not make a profit. A lot of the decisions we have been making is in order to get apartment delivery moving. We are seeing a collapse in the delivery of apartments, particularly in Dublin city. We need to get them delivered. That is why we have been making a lot of the decisions we have been making.

With regard to student accommodation, I am working with the Minister, Deputy James Lawless, to specify purpose-built student accommodation and to see what measures may need to be put in place in that regard.

When it comes to the wider rental sector, no protections are in place for any specific group of people. I am not aware of that ever being done in the history of this State and I do not intend to do it either as it would create an impossible, complex situation that could not be overseen or checked. While the number of students in accommodation is quite high, understandably so, we also have nurses, doctors and gardaí who move around. There are a lot of people who move around. We made decisions that will lead to delivery because all of these problems, whether it is homelessness numbers, high rents or high costs with buying a home, are a result of a lack of supply.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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So there will be no measures for students.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Supply, supply, supply.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We will move on to Senator Aubrey McCarthy.

Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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I thank the Minister for his opening statement and for being here. The Minister has an unenviable job. I genuinely wish him well. I am looking at the housing crisis. I am new to politics, as the Minister knows. From looking at homebuyers, tenants and the homeless, with whom I have worked for many years in Tiglin, I see this as an absolute national emergency. I see teachers, medical staff and other critical staff leaving the country. The likes of the IDA are at risk of not being able to attract companies because their employees cannot get accommodation. This should be a national emergency. I know the Government’s Housing for All plan, as well as Sinn Féin’s A Home of Your Own plan. I have looked at both of them. I would love, in my naivety, if all parties could work together to make a difference here.

While I am delighted to see progress in areas of housing regulation, I am concerned about the size of the studio being reduced to the equivalent of two car parking spaces. I hope we do not go back to the Liam Carroll shoebox-type idea, which can be seen all along the quays.

I have a few questions regarding critical blockages. The first relates to planning delays and where political interference and legal challenges delay housing beyond the extreme. In other countries, such as Denmark and the UK, but it also happened in the Dublin docklands, publicly consulted development plans are decided at the start, which are legally binding and become the master plan. Once adopted, compliant development goes ahead and progresses automatically without any interference at a later stage. Is that an option? Does the Minister agree that effective housing delivery can only happen when planning puts people before politics?

The second question concerns the population caps. In areas like my own in Kildare, I see millions of taxpayers' money being spent servicing lands and getting them ready for building, only for the planners to be blocked from progressing housing due to population limits in the area. As Minister, would he be able to lift those caps immediately in areas where land is fully serviced, development ready and has the support of local planners? We had an issue in Kildare recently with an in-field site. People were told at pre-planning that there was no point in discussing it because the local authority’s population numbers have been exceeded already.

The third question I have is the viability and affordability. The Minister, in his interaction with Deputy Stanley, addressed the fact that builders are not building. It is because they cannot get funding unless a scheme is viable. Buyers cannot afford a home unless prices come down. As Minister, will he commit to reducing cost pressures, such as reducing taxes and levies, in order that homes can be seen as affordable and then delivered?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I am certainly treating the housing crisis we are in as a national emergency. That is why I am making rapid decisions in terms of what we can do to address the housing crisis and to get as many houses and apartments built as quickly as possible. I agree that planning should be before people. That is why we are reforming our planning development laws. I want to get to a situation where, when a planner looks at an application, it is not a question of why he or she should say “Yes”, but whether there is a reason to say “No”. In other words, the assumption should be that planning should be permitted. In a lot of other countries, when a development plan is done, has been through public consultation and certain areas are marked for housing, for example, it is an administrative process after that. In Ireland, however, I find the situation is like restarting the whole thing again through complex planning permission. I want to simplify the entire process.

Population caps are artificially high across the country, particularly in areas of high growth, because our existing national planning framework did not anticipate the population increases we now have. I will be writing to the local authorities in the next couple of weeks under the new national planning framework to ask them to significantly increase the amount of land they are zoning in their areas for homes. That should alleviate the situation in many of those areas where there are population caps and where people are seeing problems with planning as a result of those planning caps.

Taxation is a matter for the Minister, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, and the Department of Finance. It is not a lever I have within the Department of housing. We have done the levies exemption, which lasted for a considerable amount of time. People were aware and took advantage of it. I do not propose giving another levy exemption because I find that if you start rolling these exemptions over, they become, if you like, priced in to the system. When an exemption is provided, it has to be for a limited period of time and not repeated for a substantial time after that. I do not intend to give another levy exemption again, certainly not in the near future.

Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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From talking to a supplier recently in Leinster House, the average housing unit is selling at €375,000. That is the national average. The cost of that unit is €230,000, which is not too far away from the idea in the Home of Your Own plan. How tight can we get it in order that housing is affordable but also viable for the builder?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We have restrictions around competition law, State-aid law and environmental law. Of course, there are also fire safety and disability rights as well. Within that, I am making as many moves as quickly as possible, including the announcement today around specifications, to be able to reduce the costs on average per unit and therefore maximise the viability and, in turn, the affordability for people to be able to buy them. If we do not address the supply situation, nothing is going to change. That is the definition of insanity.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister and the Minister of State before the committee. I acknowledge the work they are doing in both of their respective areas. The Department recently published a league table on social housing by each local authority. It shows the significant ones that have delivered and performed and those that are underperforming. There is nothing like a league table when you are looking at local politics to attract your eye. I looked at the league tables over the past three years. My county of Galway is underperforming. That is one part of it. I also looked at Cork, where the Minister of State, Deputy O’Sullivan, is from. I always like to compare Cork and Galway because we both have two city and county councils.

When we add Cork City Council and Cork County Council together, they delivered 2,993 social houses in the last three years. When I add up what Galway City Council and Galway County Council did in exactly the same time, the total was 1,062 social houses. We would always like to think in Galway that we are of a similar size to Cork and we would also think we have the same breadth. When the Minister looks at this league table, he will see that the top 14 are performing over 100% delivery, which is really ambitious. The next seven, then, bring us to 70% delivery and over. What is the Minister doing in this regard? Would the Minister like to share the conversations he is having with the local authorities to get them to at least a minimum of 70% delivery on their social housing targets? I am not even looking for 100%, but to get the bottom ten up to 70%.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator. We have serious variation across the country in terms of housing delivery. When we get under the hood of it, we can see that while some local authorities might be meeting their overall social housing targets, they are doing very little self-building. We need the local authorities to be doing their own-build social housing because it adds to the housing stock rather than purchasing turnkey units from local developers that might otherwise have been selling those units on the private market. I am obviously encouraging the local authorities to undertake self-building. Part of this was the publication of the delivery record of local authorities so people can see the information and compare and contrast. That has very much been welcomed by TDs and councillors in those local authorities who can now do that proper and appropriate comparison. I met the CEOs of the local authorities and their directors and senior planners to encourage them. We are looking at it. There have been suggestions in the past that we could perhaps look at some kind of penalties for local authorities not delivering, but in my experience that simply results in the most vulnerable in those local authority areas suffering, so it is not a route I would consider going down.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I hope the Minister will keep publishing those league tables. If nothing else, they are a support to the local Oireachtas members and councillors to keep the issue front and centre every month at their meetings. I understand that the powers and remit of the Land Development Agency are to be extended following a recent decision by the Government. Can the Minister give us details of what those changes are?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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In relation to any changes, we always give very careful consideration to them. We do our research and analysis when it comes to proposing and making those changes. We do it with very careful cognisance of the impact those changes will have on various groups, but I think we are happy enough with any changes we have proposed.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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All right. I still have enough time. The Minister just answered the question from Deputy Stanley about the removal of the four-stage process but also about having the standard of four different designs. This is to assist with getting through the planning process. It is also to assist the local authorities in ensuring there is a standard when builders are going in for tendering processes and everything else. The other question I have is on universal design or universal plus plus. Is consideration being given to the designs for people with access issues?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, accessibility is really important. I am working with the Minister, Deputy Foley, in relation to what we can do regarding access. It is critical. We do have strong building regulations around ensuring we do have access and safe access in respect of accessibility. We are considering what else can be done or needs to be done in ensuring the accessibility piece is there.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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Turning to the Minister of State, in all fairness, regarding the announcements he made around protecting our historical projects and everything else like that, what would his ask be going forward to ensure we can protect the past while building for the future? A lot of good funding has gone in with the urban regeneration and development fund and the historical project funding the Minister of State announced earlier this year. Is the Minister of State looking for an increase in the budget for this area this year?

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South-West, Fianna Fail)
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This is a great opportunity to raise this issue. Absolutely. As the Minister has constantly said, the answer to providing more units is a jigsaw that involves so many different pieces, and it will include historical structures and older buildings. In the past, we have seen very imaginative developments where historical structures have been turned into apartments or other types of residential units. There are, then, opportunities there within our Department. A few different funding streams will again become available towards the end of this year. These include the historic structures fund and the built heritage investment scheme. These are two of the main funding mechanisms where private property owners and communities can apply for funding to restore and stabilise these historical structures. We have seen that the vacant property grant is a key tool in bringing dwellings back into use. Combining this grant with initiatives like the historic structures fund and the built heritage investment scheme means there are fantastic opportunities out there. I urge people who are owners of historical properties to find out more information about these schemes and to avail of them, because there is quite a good chunk of funding there. Of course, though, we are always looking for more funding. It is money well spent. I can say that for sure.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State and the Minister.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Thomas Gould.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Before we go any further, in relation to the question I was asked earlier concerning legal proceedings, I did ask the officials to make inquiries in the Department. They have confirmed to me that judicial review proceedings have been initiated and my Department was notified of it. I was not aware of that when I commented earlier. I can confirm that legal documents were received by my Department in relation to judicial review proceedings concerning the PPP project. I suppose if I had been aware of it, I would not have made some of my comments earlier, because with legal proceedings having commenced, it is not appropriate for me to make any comment in relation to a matter that is part of legal proceedings. Perhaps, given my legal background and my commentary, I might just indicate that I was not aware of the legal proceedings, because I would not have commented at all had I been aware. I have clarification that legal proceedings in relation to the PPP have been initiated by way of judicial review. My Department was made aware of it and served with papers last Friday. It was the end of last week anyway.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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It is disappointing those officials did not make you aware of it ahead of this meeting, to be quite honest.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I agree.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Thomas Gould.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat. The new guidelines in relation to the design and size of apartments refer to 32 sq. m. A new prison cell has 12 sq. m. We are going to be charging people approximately €2,000 and €2,500 now, and maybe even more, for one of these apartments when these new ones are built. Where is the fairness in this for people who are out working, trying to build a life and a future and will then be paying massive rents for smaller accommodation? Does the Minister think that is fair? I am just looking for a "Yes" or "No" answer.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We have a crisis in this country in terms of housing, and this crisis, that I am treating as an emergency, is a result of a lack of delivery of housing. There are two aspects to this - viability and affordability. The State is delivering approximately 50% of all homes. What I am doing is taking measures to make the delivery of homes viable.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. Okay.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Apartments that never leave the planning and design stage are of no benefit to those people the Deputy mentioned when they are left paper. We need to get them built.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I can tell the Deputy that the people living at home in box rooms in their houses want apartments to live in.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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When the Minister talks about delivery, I have a list of properties from the last construction-in-progress status report. More than 11,000 of these properties have not moved in a year, nearly 8,000 have not moved in two years and 5,000 have not moved an inch in the past three years. We have 20 homes in Limerick that have been waiting on capital appraisal since 2015. We have 17 homes in Waterford that have been waiting at the preplanning stage since 2018. We have had 12 units in Waterford at the pre-tender design stage since 2019. We have units in Fermoy that have been waiting since 2017. Overall, there are 11,000 units, and the Minister is coming in here telling me that these new regulations and designs ought to deliver. Who is going to deliver them?

There are 11,000 properties in this category. Is it not important to deliver the ones that actually have planning permission and should be being built right now? Surely, these houses should be delivered first. Would that not make sense?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It is not a question of delivering any homes first. We need to-----

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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There are 11,000 under construction, according to the latest construction status report. I have seen pages listing them all in various locations. Should the Minister and the Department not be getting these 11,000 houses delivered first?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We need more than those 11,000-----

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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It would be a good start.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We need to get up to 50,000 homes a year delivered. We are spending a record amount-----

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is not the question I asked. Will the Minister get those 11,000 delivered?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy does not want to hear the answer. We are delivering 50% of all home solutions in this country. Approximately 30% of all capital funding in the State is now going towards housing delivery. While the Deputy waves those sheets around, I have been asking for months where Sinn Féin would get the funding to increase the delivery of social and affordable housing. The State only has a certain amount of money.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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All of these have funding. There are 11,000 that have not progressed for over a year. There are 5,000 houses and units that have been three years in stoppage. There is a blockage. I raised this previously with the Minister's predecessor, Deputy O'Brien. I was told that a special group would be set up to look at these cases to find out where the blockages were and get them delivered. To be honest, did the Minister even know before I mentioned it that there were 11,000 houses and units blocked right now, at a standstill?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I am very aware of any challenges around housing delivery across the country. We do everything we can to unblock it. That is what we are doing-----

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister and apologise for rushing. The Minister said earlier that more money has gone into the tenant in situ scheme since he became Minister. The tenant in situ scheme stopped in Cork on 4 April. That was confirmed by Cork City Council. A number of families - some have been evicted at this stage - have had to leave the properties. Will the Minister provide the funding to complete all tenant in situ transactions that were sale agreed from last year? Will he give a commitment to me, to anyone watching and to local authorities that he will fund local authorities to reopen the tenant in situ scheme? From my information, it is virtually closed in every local authority.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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When I became Minister for housing, there was €60 million available for the tenant in situ scheme.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is not what I asked.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Hold on. I got a significant increase from the Minister, Deputy Chambers, to increase it to €320 million. That money was distributed to the local authorities. Any funding I have for the tenant in situ scheme has been distributed to the local authorities-----

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I was here with the Minister's predecessor, Deputy O'Brien-----

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Cork city was allocated €20 million and approximately 41% of that funding has been drawn down to date.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking the Minister questions and he is not answering them. I asked the Minister's predecessor, Deputy O'Brien-----

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Deputy, please allow the Minister to answer the question.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I want answers to the questions I asked. I am not looking for the Minister to run down the clock.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I am answering the question. The Deputy just does not like the answer.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I asked a question of the Minister's predecessor, Deputy O'Brien. He told me that the local authorities needed to be ambitious in taking up the tenant in situ scheme. Local authorities did so, but when Deputy Browne came in as Minister he did not stand over a commitment given by a previous Minister. I am asking the Minister a straight question. Will he provide funding to complete all tenant in situ transactions that went sale agreed? Will he put funding in place to reopen the scheme for 2025? It is a yes-no answer.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I have answered the Deputy's question. Any funding I have to provide for the tenant in situ scheme has been distributed across the country.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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So they will all stay closed. The Cork city tenant in situ scheme is closed at the moment. I have it in writing from the council. It will not reopen tenant in situ because the Minister will not give them the money. It is a yes-no answer.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Cork city has drawn down 41% of its tenant in situ funding.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is not what I asked. I am asking questions, Chair, but I have not gotten one straight answer in five minutes.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I am not butting in but the Minister in his answer said the local authority the Deputy is talking about has drawn down just 41% of the money allocated. Something is wrong there. He said that two or three times, in fairness.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is closed. I have it in writing. I am asking the Minister if he will give the funding to reopen it. It is a yes-no answer. This is not confined to Cork. Across the State - in Dublin and Kildare, etc. - the tenant in situ scheme is closed. I am only asking if the Minister will provide funding to reopen it.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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In fairness, it was never proposed that there would simply be a bottomless or open application, or that the State would support the purchase for anybody who came forward with a tenant in situ application. There are thousands of those types of properties. Sinn Féin's own policy proposes reducing the tenant in situ scheme down to 800 purchases per year. That is the Deputy's own policy, and it is available online. Sinn Féin's own policy-----

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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You are the Minister now. When I am the Minister for housing, I will answer the questions you ask me. You are the Minister today.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We need to move on.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Cork City Council's tenant in situ scheme has closed and it remains closed.

PJ Murphy (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for coming in. I am sorry I missed the earlier part of his address; I was engaged in the Seanad.

I will start off by congratulating the Minister on the guidelines that propose to reduce the minimum size of apartments. I fully agree with this proposal. As he just pointed out, viability and affordability are key. Apartments that are not being built, irrespective of size, are of no use to anybody. It was a good move on the Minister's part.

I have spoken about unserviced settlements in the Galway area in this committee on a number of occasions. In the Gort-Kinvara local electoral area, in my own area of south Galway, just two of 14 settlements, Gort and Kinvara, are serviced. The wastewater treatment plant in Gort, the larger of the two settlements, is at capacity. Therefore, Kinvara is the only settlement in the whole of the south Galway district in which planning permission can be granted. We urgently need to find a way of granting planning permission for housing developments in unserviced settlements when it comes to wastewater. As far I can see, that can only be done through developer-led, on-site package treatment plants. I know a task force is in place to look at progressing this. For many young people in rural areas such as my own who want to live in the communities where they were born and reared, time is of the essence. In 12 of the 14 villages in south Galway, no planning application has been granted for a housing development since 2009. As a result, with the exception of one-off rural housing, no young person from the south Galway area has been able to acquire a new house in their native place since 2009. The clock is ticking fast. I urge the Minister to do everything in his power to put in place, I hope by the end of this year, a means by which Galway County Council and other local authorities can grant planning permission to developers to put in place development-led solutions for wastewater treatment on site in unserviced settlements across rural Ireland, including small unserviced villages.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator for his questions. I fully agree with him that we have to get developer-led wastewater treatment. As someone who comes from rural Ireland, I know that houses cannot be built in many villages to allow people to live in their local communities where their families are, where they went to school and where their support networks are. They are moving to the nearest provincial towns, many of which have artificial caps in terms of population growth. I am trying to address all of those issues. It is in the programme for Government that funding will be provided to Uisce Éireann to support the delivery of rural water schemes. Uisce Éireann will not be able to deliver them all in the near future. Even if it had the funding, it would not have the capacity. We need to have developer-led wastewater treatment plants with accreditation and oversight by Uisce Éireann, at a quality that it can take over. Nobody is proposing that we go back to the mistakes of the past. At the same time, we cannot keep fighting the past wars either. Having developers being able to deliver accredited high-quality systems is an important way for us to get homes back into our villages in particular.

PJ Murphy (Fine Gael)
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We are on the same page. I fully agree with the Minister about oversight from Uisce Éireann. A specification would have to be provided by Uisce Éireann. The plant on completion would have to be taken in charge by Uisce Éireann.

It is very important that whatever specification is provided by Uisce Éireann would be financially viable for the developer. My fear is that what we develop would be a programme by which Uisce Éireann or the environmental authority would put in place such criteria that it still would not actually be viable for a developer to put a plant in place. That is something we very much have to bear in mind in this regard.

We also have to bear in mind that there are lot of different types of landscapes around the country. Coming from a karst limestone landscape myself in the Burren lowlands, I would very much be of the fear that before any outflow water from a treatment plant could be released into the environment it could require very costly treatment. There would have to be a level playing field created in terms of cost for the developer. If we are to rely on Irish Water-Uisce Éireann to service all of these unserviced settlements, we will be looking, at the current rate of progress, 50-plus years before the 500-plus unserviced settlements in the country are serviced. That certainly is not an option. With the right planning - and I know the Minister has the task force in place - the package plants, developer-led, can be a solution to this.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for coming to the committee to update us. Deputies Hearne, Ellis and I met Dublin City Council to talk about the pipeline in our own constituency. I have to say there is a very strong pipeline of nearly 2,500 public homes all on public sites in our constituency. What was welcome to see on many of those was the mix of tenure. We have cost rental, social and affordable purchase. I would like to see more affordable purchase on some of those sites. The issue of viability is a factor in all of them but it is providing a real challenge, particularly in affordable purchase. Essentially, affordable purchase should be called "below the cost of construction" because that is essentially what it is. You take the cost of construction, minus €100,000, and we are selling it. The difficulty is that even when you apply that full €100,000 reduction, it is often above what they deem the market value.

My first question regards that issue of affordable purchase. The Department often takes into account the local market. It might say, for example, that with regard to a site proposed in Finglas west or Ballymun, it is cheaper to buy an existing former local authority home. You might get that for €300,000. To construct it you are coming in at €350,000 or €380,000 and therefore there is no need for the social home. They are totally different products. One is an A-rated home, high-spec and a new build and would be able to attract a higher rate than an old local authority house that is perhaps in need of refurbishment and so on. We need to draw attention to that issue of approving affordable purchase schemes because it is having a chilling effect on local authorities progressing affordable purchase.

Within that 2,500 pipeline there is a large number of sites that were in the PPP bundle, and not all in PPP bundle 3. Some are in PPP bundle 4, which I understand is still live and active. Others remain in bundles 5, 6 and 7. In fact, there are nearly 1,000 units in my constituency that rely on that PPP bundle so it is an incredibly important stream. Given that the Minister has updated the committee on the legal action that has been placed before the High Court by the successful bidder, can he outline how he proposes to unbundle those sites, if that is the way to do it? Without commenting on the legal action - because as the Minister has said, he cannot do that - what is the quickest route to construction for those sites?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy McAuliffe. I know this is an issue on which he has been in regular contact with the Department of housing and me. On the impact with regard to PPP, as the Deputy has already pointed out, I cannot comment at this point. The bundle is now the subject of legal proceedings but with regard to the delivery of those homes, PPP is obviously one. With regard to the further bundles, we are examining it. We are examining whether they are going to have the same cost profile as the third one, and how we proceed from here. It is obviously a legally complex situation, as we now know from the third one, as to how we can proceed from here.

We have not reached a conclusion as to what is the quickest and most effective way to deliver those homes but we are very conscious those social and affordable homes are badly needed for families in Dublin. We will continue to liaise with Dublin City Council and the Deputies and councillors from those areas to get those homes built as quickly as possible.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Given that they already have planning permission, some in bundles 3 and 4 - I think there were nearly 800 with full planning permission - given that they are all on local authority sites and given that we have enabled them in the Housing for All plan and have passed the Affordable Housing Act, we cannot really facilitate or accept any delay in delivering those. I know it is only a matter of weeks since the decision was made but we have to move quickly to give certainty. As part of planning processes, communities have seen the plans.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I know.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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They have seen the designs and they want to participate in them.

I will turn to a related conversation regarding ground floor units. In Ballymun, we have a large number of retail units that have yet to be used, which were built under the regeneration. Unfortunately, with regard to the design, the planners insist on ground floor spaces being animated by providing retail. The difficulty with that is that if you have a surplus of retail, it is very difficult then to include retail on the ground floor when you know they are going to lie empty. Second is the cost of that retail, in the same way the Minister is proposing to remove the cost of the cultural space. Essentially, it just gets divided out among the 20 or 30 apartments above it. The same issue arises with retail, and I think the Department needs to go back and have a look at the insistence on retail at ground floor level where there might be an oversupply of retail in the area.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. I agree; the retail landscape has changed dramatically over the last number of years. I think it is going to continue to do so and we are going to see less and less retail. Those guidelines were put in at a very different time when people had a very different vision of what that future would be. In fairness, it was probably with the good intention that where you are building a lot of housing, there would be that retail element those people could benefit from, whether it was grocery stores or whatever the case may be. We do not want properties left idle so we will continue to facilitate those types of properties being converted into homes. They need to be used and residential use, for me, is always the best use for those.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We should be doing at the very beginning when they are being planned. With particular regard to public housing that we build, that should happen at the beginning rather than waiting to be converted. The Department needs to issue stronger guidelines to Dublin City Council planners to say that where there is an oversupply, we should not be prescribing that there has to be retail at ground floor.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with the Deputy and under the Planning and Development Act, I would have much stronger powers with regard to being able to issue statements to local authorities. I will be doing so where we see and accept - and I do in this case - that we should not be continuing to mandate large numbers of ground floor retail units where there is no realism to them ever being filled.

Maria McCormack (Sinn Fein)
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I want to talk about Laois and especially the neglect of commuter counties. We take the overspill from the housing crisis. Laois is one of the fastest-growing populations but if the LDA was concentrating on the bigger cities, Laois was really left behind, so there are a couple of issues. The biggest issue is the affordability of the houses. It is like feeding a monster. I bought a house in 2017 for under €200,000. Last year, you would buy that house for €350,000 in Kilminchy. Now they are gone up to €500,000.

As the Minister can imagine, that is just pushing the price up and up. What is going to happen? Where are the plans for the LDA to expand and to look at County Laois? What is the Minister's plan for County Laois? As for the social housing targets, the county council is doing very well, in fairness. However, 1,600 people remain on a waiting list for four years. Where do the targets come from? Are the targets based on the current population in the county? Portlaoise is dealing with a real overspill, being a commuter town, and we cannot keep up with it. That is my first question.

My second question relates to housing and infrastructure not being aligned. This is a massive problem. There was such a boom in the population of the county and the infrastructure cannot keep up with it. An example of that relates to ESB connections. In one case, 80 families who purchased homes in the Hollybrook development in Portlaoise last year were supposed to get into them in January or February of this year. They could not do so, however, because the power station is at capacity. The ESB says it got figures from the Department on housing delivery, but those figures were not enough. We do not have sufficient capacity. Eighty families who have bought houses cannot get into their homes. Some of those people were from Dublin. They enrolled their children in the local primary school and they are going to commute from Dublin to Portlaoise in September because now it looks like it will be December, nearly a year later, when they get into the houses. The houses are just sitting idly and going mouldy, while 80 families are not able to get into them. That is a massive problem. That is my second question. I will let the Minister come back to me because I am talking too much.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Not at all. I thank the Senator very much. I want to see people in homes as quickly as possible, whatever the case may be, whether they are social, affordable, cost rental or their own purchase. It is all about increasing supply. We are increasing the powers of the Land Development Agency, including that geographical piece where it can go out wider than is currently the case. We are also working with local authorities in terms of master-planning to facilitate them to be able to deliver homes in various areas.

It was noted that County Laois has done well. Our targets are minimum targets. We always encourage local authorities to exceed them. The current targets were set in 2021. We will issue new targets. That is very important. It is always important to emphasise that targets are minimum targets for what local authorities can deliver.

I will engage with the ESB on the Hollybrook development. I do not like talking about any particular development but it is unacceptable for houses to be left idle. I will engage directly with the ESB to see what the issue is in that case and why the houses have not been connected.

In terms of how targets are set, it is complex. It is based on the current need and on future need. The capacity of local authorities have been taken into account as well, in terms of their ability to deliver. We will continue to engage with local authorities on how we set our new targets for them.

Maria McCormack (Sinn Fein)
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Yes. There is then the piece around engagement on the infrastructure. If we are going to build more houses, every development that gets built in Portlaoise now will face the same problems. It is a case of having all the systems working together or else there is no point in doing it.

We do not have many affordable schemes in County Laois. One started in Stradbally a couple of weeks ago. It seems to be very slow in coming to places like County Laois. I refer to housing that is affordable to purchase, so that families who are stuck in the middle can get a home. What are the plans for County Laois in that regard?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Some local authorities are delivering a significant amount of affordable housing but others are finding it hard to meet the criteria, in a sense. Where houses are of a certain level, when they work out the cost of an affordable purchase the difference is not there to make a substantial difference to individual families. We will continue to keep those limits under review. What I have been doing in terms of analysis in recent months is trying to ensure that every individual and family in the country can get somewhere to call a home, based on their income. That might be social housing, cost rental, affordable purchase or they might be able to do it without any supports. We want to ensure that people meet the criteria. There are probably a number of counties across the country where local authorities are struggling to make the affordable purchase scheme work for some families. They are above the social housing threshold but the limits on affordable housing mean it is not viable for those families either, in that the differential is very small versus the actual market price for the homes. I am looking at that again. I had that situation in my own county until recently. One could call it a bad thing, but house prices were going up and that made it a bit more viable for the affordable housing scheme. A lot of midland counties are in that situation, so we are looking at it.

Maria McCormack (Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I thank the Minister.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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One of my colleagues mentioned the Land Development Agency and the new approach the Minister is taking with it. Could he elaborate on where specifically he sees the agency going in terms of increasing the delivery of housing? I am thinking specifically of private sites. They should have a significant role to play in enabling those sites to be developed, not necessarily by the State but by somebody. Could the Minister please comment on that?

I will ask a second question in the initial round. Vacant housing in local authority stock has not come up yet today in this session. It is a significant issue across the country. As the Minister well knows, nothing frustrates people more than seeing local authority housing vacant or boarded up for a prolonged period. It is an issue across the board. Local authorities around the country differ but it is an issue everywhere in the sense that it is taking too long.

What are the Department's proposals to try to reduce the turnaround time? We must turn around the stock we have in a much faster manner, in particular given the crisis we are in. I will put those two questions if I may.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We recently got approval from the Cabinet to increase the Land Development Agency's role. Geography is one part of that. A second part of it relates to it helping local authorities to master-plan their delivery. When we combine the role of the LDA with the local authorities' plans, urban development zones, and the housing activation office, which is my team on the ground to help unlock utility services, we can really unlock some very large sites across the country. The role of the Land Development Agency is very important and we will continue to work on it.

In terms of vacant housing, I will bring information to the Cabinet in the coming months to set out what local authorities are achieving in terms of turning around what are sometimes referred to as voids. Some local authorities turn them around very quickly but others are simply not doing that. There is no reason for them not to be turned around as quickly as possible.

When a local authority house becomes vacant, health and safety works must be carried out and the property must be habitable for the family that is going to move into it, but what some local authorities are doing is taking an opportunity to completely refurbish the entire property, which is taking an inordinate amount of time. That needs to be done as part of planned works, not simply when a property becomes vacant. We must get properties turned around as quickly as possible. While a certain amount of work needs to be done as planned maintenance, local authorities should not take the opportunity when a property becomes empty to take five to seven months to do a large amount of work on it. That simply should not be the case. We will continue to do that.

The Deputy asked about private sites in regard to the Land Development Agency. We are addressing the mix of work it can do in terms of the homes it can deliver. Up to now it has been doing social and affordable to a large degree and on public lands. It will now have greater powers to be able to acquire private lands and to do a mix. I believe having a mixed tenure on site of social and affordable and private is really good for communities, rather than having social housing all in one envelope, affordable in another envelope and private in another envelope. It is to the benefit of everybody where there is a proper mix.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Agreed. I thank the Minister. I have two final questions. Housing was obviously a major issue during the election, but one of the issues that came up a lot was housing for the elderly and appropriate options being available for people who want to downsize from traditional family homes with three or four bedrooms to something suitable. Many people told me they would be open to it, but the options simply are not there. What can the Department or we as a Government do to ensure we have more options available to elderly people who want to downsize? Is there scope within the national planning framework to make some provision for that issue? Prioritising housing for the elderly is something I tried to do at a county development plan level previously. I am wondering if it is something the Department could look at in the context of the upcoming proposals.

The second question is on the first home scheme. I acknowledge there haves been some increases in the minimum value of properties in relation to that recently. Unfortunately, there is still a difficulty with that. There were no changes in Cork city in terms of the house value. It increased in the county, but in many cases new properties are over the limit and the scheme is no longer workable. This is a critically important scheme. I saw in recent days over 3,700 properties were purchased through this scheme. It has enabled first-time buyers to get on the ladder. I am aware of the difficulties with this. The Minister does not want to increase house prices by increasing the limits and I understand that argument, but the scheme has been a good one. If it is no longer workable we have to look at that and come up with some measures. I will leave it at that.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, is doing a lot of good work on housing for the elderly. He has established his team and is engaging with older persons' organisations in developing a plan and building on the existing housing options for positive ageing and what we can do to help older people who want to rightsize. It is absolutely critical they do not in any way feel under pressure to move out of their homes, where they may have raised their families. In my experience as a local TD dealing with older people, they very often want to move into smaller properties, provided those properties are of high quality and in their local community. That is critical for them. In those circumstances, maintaining a smaller property would make their lives easier, but it is crucial to them they can stay in their local community. Where we can do that, it is really important, but at the same time older people should not feel under any particular pressure to move out of their homes.

On the first home scheme, I am conscious Cork county saw an increase but the city did not. I am very much in favour of homeownership and how we can facilitate people to be able to buy their own properties so they can live in them and raise their families in a safe and secure manner. The first home scheme is being kept under review, especially in relation to places like Cork city. The board will again review the scheme, how it is working and where to get that balance. Some local authorities like Cork and Waterford are struggling and saying homes are not being built in their areas as a result of bordering some counties where house prices are rising at a higher rate. I continue to the keep the entire scheme under review, but I know the situations in Cork city and county are proving challenging for people who want to get on the ladder.

Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I thank the Minister and his officials for coming in. I will be brief. The Minister obviously cannot comment on the specifics of the judicial review, but how did he not know about this before he came in here today? Why did his officials not tell him? Was he told about the risk of this before he pulled the PPP project? I understand the Minister's rationale for pulling the project. I wish the Department had never gone ahead with it in the first place because it is poor value for money. Given all these PPPs have been or are being reviewed, does that mean PPP is dead as a delivery route? An element of uncertainty has been injected into it because of this ministerial review.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously I cannot comment on the legal proceedings that have been initiated over the PPP. I can say I was not personally aware of it and we will establish greater details in relation to it. Public-private partnership has a role to play, but it needs to be completely overhauled and re-examined with respect to the length of time it took to actually get to a position where it landed on my desk for final decision, but also the gateways in terms of establishing value for money and the criteria being set out for how you go about doing the PPP. It is an important route to get the homes we need but it has to be done in a manner that is fair to the taxpayer and gives value for money.

Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Given the Minister cancelled these PPPs at the eleventh hour, would he not accept that because of the uncertainty that has been injected into it for developers it is now essentially unviable as a delivery route? Who is going to take a project on if a decision could come at effectively the eleventh hour?

In the time remaining to me I want to ask about the changes to apartment guidelines and the savings the Minister laid out. Is he going to publish where exactly the savings of €50,000 to €100,000 per unit will come from? What analysis has the Department done on how this will affect existing planning permissions with respect to timelines for delivery if developers are, say, looking for more units? Have these new smaller apartment guidelines been properly assessed for compliance with wheelchair accessibility and universal design guidelines? When apartment guidelines were changed ten years ago Dublin City Council's architect said those Alan Kelly apartments, which were bigger than these new ones will be, would not be wheelchair-accessible.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It is important to say of the new apartment specifications that there is only one type of unit that is reduced in size and that is the studio. It is down from 37 sq. m to 32 sq. m, which is more in line with European norms. There is a new three-bedroom unit. Currently you can have a three-bedroom unit for five people and there will be a three-bedroom unit for four people, so that is giving an additional choice in terms of the three-bedroom properties that are there as well. All the building regulations relating to disability will continue to be adhered to. There are no changes to disability regulations in this, just as there are no changes to fire and environmental regulations. This is particularly about the mix of units you can have within existing and future apartment blocks.

Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
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When will the savings be published? The Minister has mentioned €50,000 to €100,000 per unit. What sort of modelling has been done and when will this be published?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The costings will be published in the near future. We have that as raw data. Obviously to be published they have to be done in a presentable manner people will be able to analyse. The important thing we are doing today is ensuring we address viability because as I have said ideal designs that never leave the paper cannot house anybody.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy and the Minister. I have the last speaking slot and I have a few questions.

I come from Longford and a number of members have raised the issue of package treatment plants being used ahead of Irish Water being able to upgrade sewerage systems. In Ballymahon and Edgeworthstown, which are the second- and third-biggest towns in Longford, we cannot build anything because of this limitation.

I would like to see those proposals or something along those lines sent to the local authorities advising them that where there is a need for plants, we have a company in the county. Butler Manufacturing Services, run by a colleague of the Minister, supplies them all over the country and internationally but we do not use that company in towns in our own county where we need houses built. I thank the Minister for his positive comments in relation to that. I would like to see more local authorities roll that out ahead of the capital works that would be done and then they could be tapped into the public scheme.

I ask about any future plans for affordable housing in, yet again, Longford in particular. There have been no private developments since 2008 in our county. We were blighted with section 23 at the time but we have no private development being built for the market or for people who are looking for starter homes, which is the better term we should use. Are there any potential plans for that?

As regards the vacant stock, we had significant vacant stock in my local authority two years ago. We have done a massive amount of work and spent millions of euro on it, yet we are being compensated by the Department for €11,000 per unit whereas the average cost to bring them up to the standard that is there is €40,000 per unit. We have a significant shortfall in the local authority with regard to the cost of upgrading them. I will come back in with another question afterwards.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with the Cathaoirleach regarding the treatment plants. We have to look at how we can facilitate that as much as possible while ensuring we stick to environmental rules and regulations and protect our water. I am very conscious of counties like Longford and a number of other counties that do not have a significant amount of private development. That impacts not only on the ability of local authorities to facilitate homes for private purchase but also on them being able to deliver affordable purchase homes or social homes because they does not have the opportunity for Part V properties that a lot of other local authorities have. We will continue to work with those local authorities to see what else we can do to help deliver the homes that are needed. We are also looking at how we can stimulate rural development. That is really important.

Regarding the vacant property grant, we have over 13,000 applications. It is something I regard as very important, coming from a provincial town myself, that where we have properties in towns that are not occupied but could be used for residential purpose, we have water and we have ESB connections. It is good for the local community. It allows for passive policing of antisocial behaviour. It is a win-win. I am doing everything I can to ensure provincial towns are looked after and facilitated as much as possible. There is a huge opportunity within our provincial towns to help solve the housing crisis in this country that has not really been tapped into to date.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The croí cónaithe scheme has been fantastic and we can see it in every single town throughout the country. However, we need to compensate local authorities that have reduced their vacant stock by spending a considerable amount of their own resources. The compensation should, perhaps, be a bit more than the €11,000 because the reality is that it is costing a significant amount more.

On the single-stage process, an issue that came up with the CCMA and its chair, Eddie Taaffe, when he was here, was about it taking two and a half to three years. That is solely for council development. What about turnkey developers in through the council? Is that same four-stage process going to be there for those projects or are we looking at reducing that process where it is a developer-led project with the local authority?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Where it is with the local authorities, it should all be single-stage processes. Where, for example, a private developer may have got his own planning permission and is therefore providing turnkeys that may be off design or not built yet - which is the ideal as I do not like the idea of turnkeys that are ready-built houses going to local authorities; these should be sold on the private market - they do not have to go through any of those processes. It should be the local authorities engaging with them to purchase but obviously they have to get the funding approval from the Department. We need to see the delivery of local authorities themselves increasing substantially if we are going to address the housing crisis. The moving of the four-stage process down to a single stage and increasing the limits for single-stage from €8 million to €200 million really should mean there is no issue for local authorities in terms of a delay in delivering the social homes they need in their areas.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Deputy McGrath referred to downsizing for the elderly. We have seen some communal living projects run by organisations like Sue Ryder Ireland. These projects allowed people to downsize or purchase a one- or two-bedroom apartment but we do not see enough of them. I do not think there are in the midlands. That would free up a lot of family homes in rural areas People would like to come into that setting where they would have the support of their communal living. Are there any plans to look at expanding that or working with the likes of Sue Ryder Ireland or other organisations that do that to deliver more of them around the country?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely there is. The Cathaoirleach is 100% right. Obviously, there is a right-sizing piece for older people who want to do that, but there is also the independent living piece, which may support people who may be older. We want to keep them in homes as long as possible but they need to have access to some sort of daily supports. That is why it was quite an enlightened decision to give the Minister of State with responsibility for older people, Kieran O'Donnell, an important role in the Department of Housing as well for that older people piece. He has been working very hard within his remit in that respect. It ensures there is that joined-up thinking that may not have been there before in terms of how we can ensure older people can live with dignity, respect and independence for as long as possible.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We will briefly go to members for a second round. The first slot is for Fianna Fáil. I will let them fight it out there. We will get everybody in; members need not worry.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not want to raise anything new. I will raise one issue with the Minister of State, Deputy O'Sullivan, to reiterate one point.

I thank the Minister for his responses in respect of elderly housing options. I totally agree with him that it should be on a voluntary basis. The reality, however, is those options are not there for people. We have to be quite prescriptive as a Government in our planning framework or planning guidelines. Where there are large tracts of land zoned for housing, we have to insist that portions of that will be made available for housing for the elderly. That will free up larger properties for families. To reiterate, this is based on a voluntary move by those elderly people. It is something that came up quite a lot at the doors with me. Many of them want to make this move but they feel the options are not there for them. I am not asking the Minister of State to come back on that but just to reiterate that point.

I raise the issue of water quality in Cork city with the Minister of State, Deputy O'Sullivan. It is a significant issue on both the northside and southside of the city. There is water discolouration and so on. I appreciate Uisce Éireann has undertaken works to try to improve the situation but it remains an ongoing challenge and issue. From the Minister of State's own point of view and that of the Department, is there ongoing contact with Uisce Éireann on this issue? I hope it is something it will get on top of in the near future.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy McGrath for raising this issue. On the back of him raising it here today, I will speak to the water directorate within my Department, which has a very close working relationship with Uisce Éireann, to ensure any measures that are being taken to get rid of this water discolouration are prioritised and taken as fast as possible. The Deputy will be well aware that approximately €100 million has been invested in water infrastructure in the city over the past number of years but there is an issue with the old cast iron pipes. There are about 600 km of pipes in the city. About 50% to 60% of them are old cast iron pipes. My understanding of the crux of the issue is that when repairs are being done or when upgrades are being done to the pipework, the old sediment in the cast iron is essentially being knocked into the water supply and we get this awful discolouration. We have seen it highlighted. It is something the Deputy has highlighted at every possible occasion. It is simply not good enough and it should not continue. There is also the drinking water issue. There is a health aspect to this as well. Uisce Éireann has a specific dedicated unit within the city to deal with this issue. Approximately €1.6 million has been allocated to the enhanced processes at the Lee Road plant, which it is hoped will address the issue.

There has been constant mains rehabilitation in the city. The issue is being prioritised but on the back of this and the Deputy raising the matter, I will again urge the directorate of my Department to reach out to Uisce Éireann and ensure that whatever measures can be taken are taken quickly. This issue has been going on for too long and should not continue. I appreciate the Deputy raising it.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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It is jaw-dropping that the Minister was not aware of the legal proceedings, the judicial challenge to these public-private partnership projects. I cannot emphasise enough the impact of this on local communities in my constituency and throughout the country. A number of serious questions will need to be asked. When the Minister made the decision to withdraw from the public-private partnership projects, did he consider the potential of a judicial challenge? Was that considered as one of the possible outcomes? Did he discuss it with his officials? Does he accept that this is now an utter mess? Stronger words come to mind. Dublin City Council will not be able to progress these projects. Its representatives told us during the meeting yesterday that the council will not be able to go out to public tender until this legal issue is sorted.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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As an experienced politician and academic, the Deputy will be fully aware that I cannot comment on ongoing legal proceedings.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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It is very unfortunate that we have reached this situation and that questions on this matter cannot be answered. It is an utter disaster and a mess in terms of these local projects that are due to be delivered. It is really unfortunate we have reached this situation.

I will go on to another question I want to ask. We have not raised the issue of homelessness. The Minister said it will be difficult to prevent reaching the point where 5,000 children are homeless. Does he accept that it would be an absolute failure if we did reach the point at which 5,000 children are homeless? Are there measures the Minister could take on an emergency basis that would ensure we do not reach that figure? Surely in respect of the Minister’s legacy, he cannot stand over our reaching 5,000 children being homeless.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I cannot stand over any child being in emergency accommodation. I do not want to see any child in that situation. We are doing everything we can to address that and to prevent young children or any child entering into that type of situation. We have record numbers of preventions of families going into emergency accommodation, as well as a record number of exits. We are in a housing crisis, which I am treating as a housing emergency. The key to ensuring we address and end homelessness is to increase the supply of homes. A lack of homes is why we have people becoming homeless. We are bringing in new security of tenure for tenants because we know 40% of the families ending up in homelessness are in that position as a result of the serving of a notice of termination. We are, therefore, strengthening tenants' rights to prevent people going into homelessness.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Dublin City Council told me directly it has suspended the tenants in situ scheme, as have other local authorities across. It has been suspended because local authorities do not have the necessary funding allocated. Can the Minister not give an emergency allocation to those local authorities to continue with the tenants in situ scheme, as was the situation last year? That would be an emergency intervention which would prevent hundreds of families with children becoming homeless in the coming months.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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There are a number of options available to local authorities. We are delivering record numbers of social housing, for example, which means people who may be facing homelessness can be moved into social housing. We are also providing HAP and RAS supports to local authorities. The tenant in situ scheme is only one method of support.

When I became Minister for housing, €60 million was available. I received significant additional funding from the Department of public expenditure and reform and that funding has been provided to local authorities. Local authorities forward agreed to purchase a significant number of properties under the tenant in situ scheme. As a result, when that funding was allocated most local authorities found themselves with very little funding left.

It is not possible for the State to solve homelessness through buying up existing properties. That is not how we are going to address homelessness. We will address it by increasing supply. All of my decisions in recent weeks have been about driving supply of homes. Otherwise, we will have a worse homelessness situation. I do not want to see the figure the Deputy cited reached and I am doing everything I can to stop that happening. However, until we increase the supply of homes we will be in a very serious situation. Those families and children are in a dire situation. That is what motivates me every day to drive on with housing delivery.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Before we move on, I have been advised that if the Minister were to speak about a specific case, I would have to ask him to desist due to the judicial review.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The figures on derelict sites normally come out in the first quarter of each year. They are not out yet. We are now in July. Can the Minister explain this? When will they be out?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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They will be published as soon as possible.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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If the figures come out every year in the first quarter, I have to surmise that they are so bad that the Minister is holding them until the summer break. There is no other explanation, unless someone is not doing his or her job. When will the figures be out? They are months late. It does not make sense.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Let me be very clear on my position on derelict sites. I regard derelict properties as antisocial behaviour. I will bring forward very strong changes to our laws to ensure we address this issue.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Can the Minister understand my concern given that the figures are normally released in the first quarter and we are now in July?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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My understanding is that we still on track to publish the figures within a usual and reasonable timeframe. I will challenge any local authority that is not addressing the derelict sites in its area. The Deputy prefers to give local authorities a free pass-----

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do not.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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-----but they are housing authorities and they need to address derelict sites head on.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister might like to know that last year there were nine people working in the vehicle homes unit in the Department and there are now only eight. Since then, we have got the croí cónaithe scheme, the vacant homes tax and the compulsory purchase order activation programme. We have fewer workers than we did last year. The housing crisis is worse and we have given that unit more jobs to do. Why is the Minister not resourcing it?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We are resourcing it.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The figures show there are only eight people working there.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The staff are doing an extraordinary job in tackling vacancy and dereliction. We need the local authorities on the ground tackling vacancy and dereliction. They were given the supports to do so.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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There are only eight staff in the Department's vacant homes unit and there were nine last year. A question was put to the Minister, which he answered, about boarded-up vacant houses. Between the tenant in situ scheme and the boarded-up local authority houses, which are owned by the State, we could house every family in emergency accommodation. This is a solution. It would not clear the homeless figures, but the Minister has in his hands the power to house every family and child in emergency accommodation if he were to give the funding to local authorities to address boarded-up housing, which, as he said, amounts to antisocial behaviour but is owned by the State, and the tenant in situ scheme. He could be the first Minister to eliminate child homelessness. Would that not be something to achieve? We would do whatever we could on our side to support him.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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As regards the tenant in situ scheme, that will not facilitate anybody to move from emergency accommodation into a property because the scheme is for properties in which a family is already living and may be at risk of homelessness. There are other opportunities for local authorities to be able to house those people.

In terms of vacant local authority properties, I fully agree with the Deputy. The length of time these houses are being left vacant is totally unacceptable. However, that is the responsibility of the relevant local authority. The Deputy gave an example of a property that was left vacant because the council could not put in a staircase for five years. That is nonsensical stuff from a local authority.

That is not for a Minister to be addressing.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister actually raised that twice-----

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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That is for the local authority. That was the Deputy's example and it is a matter for the local authority to address.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I know. The Minister has mentioned it twice since I have raised it. Someone asked me if the Minister has any idea what it costs to put new stairs into a house, especially when the local authority cannot get that money back because it has already put in the maximum €11,000.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Deputy want me to accept that a local authority-----

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking to officials and with people-----

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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-----with a budget of hundreds of millions of euro cannot afford to put in stairs?

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is saying-----

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We need to get real here, Deputy. That is a farce.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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----- that every local authority is wrong. There are thousands of houses and units in the local authorities. These are figures I received through freedom of information requests from all the local authorities. They have given us the information. The Minister mentioned earlier on that he will write to all local authorities. When he writes to them, will he ask whether they will supply a list of vacant houses? We want the actual addresses because we want to be able to confirm that the quantities are correct. Will he ask the local authorities to make the listed vacant properties available in order that politicians, locally and nationally, can ensure that the timelines will be brought down? We want openness and transparency. We want this to work. Between the boarded-up houses, the tenant in situ scheme and the derelict sites, there are millions of euro.

In Cork city alone, Cork City Council is owed-----

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy's time is up.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will finish with this. Cork City Council alone is owed €5 million from last year. Nationally, the figure owed is more than €20 million. The Minister has to deal with it.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for allowing us to ask extra questions. I have to correct the Deputy to the left of me. I go back again to my compare-and-contrast exercise between Galway and Cork-----

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Far left, and I know it.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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Far left. I am sorry; Deputy McGrath is on my left.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I would have gone with the left.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Does Deputy McGrath have something to tell us?

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I raise the issue of voids in Cork and Galway in the last ten years. Cork County Council and Cork City Council have received €50 million in the last ten years to bring voids back into use. Galway County Council and Galway City Council received €12 million. In fairness to Cork City Council and Cork County Council, between them, they have brought back 3,100 voids into operation, while more than 820 were brought back in Galway. I applaud Cork city and county councils for the work they are doing. I also applaud the Department's transparency. It is good that I could get these sorts of answers today. A total of 25,000 voids in the last ten years have come back into operation.

A local authority can grant planning permission to a developer to build 100 homes, 200 homes or whatever they have been granted, but the local authority can add stipulations that the developer must create the public realm. That seems unfavourable, particularly when it comes to a city development. Asking a developer to put in a public realm as part of the terms of conditions to granting them planning permission is not a fair way of doing business. I would like to hear the Minister's opinions in that regard. We want our developers to be building the houses for us in Galway city.

Another issue I want to raise relates to affordable homes. One of the biggest issues in Galway County Council is affordable homes. No affordable housing schemes are under way at the moment, apart from a development in Claregalway, which I know is happening. Constituency-wise, Claregalway is in Galway West. It is not outside the county but is not in the eastern side of the county. What are the plans within the Department to support the local authorities? I know the Minister has said it is all about cost. A cost assessment for the area forms the basis of whether the value of the area is determined to be high or low enough for an affordable home scheme.

I raise Portumna as an example. Approximately 2,500 live there. They work locally in the SuperValu and in the factory, but at the same time, if they were to buy a property on the open market, which could cost between €300,000 and €400,000, they cannot afford that. Yet there is no affordable scheme in the area. I know it is down to the local authorities to submit them, but when a local authority is in a position to submit, what can we do? The Minister is coming down hard on local authorities and taking a firm grip on it. What are we saying to local authorities when we have the highest number of children in homelessness and when 3,500 people in the county in need of housing? What does our local authority need to do to actually take a grasp of it?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Senator Rabbitte asked about developers. I think she would agree that it is important we have green spaces and communal spaces. These are really important. They are not, however, facilities to be done by way of levy on the developer, which will only drive up the cost of renting and purchasing property. That is why we have the development contribution scheme, if you like. That is the key. Developers contribute towards those green spaces through their contributions. The Government, through its funding streams, is providing substantial funding for various and important public spaces because they are critical.

In Galway, the Galway housing task force was established in 2019, which meets quarterly with its chair, John McCarthy, who is an ex-Secretary General of the Department of housing. Its next meeting will be on 3 September 2025. There has been a lot of senior level engagement between the Department and the task force to accelerate and address the issue regarding affordable and social housing delivery, homelessness and the related sector. There is a homelessness situation throughout the country. There is a particularly serious situation in Dublin. In the regional areas, however, Galway has a significantly higher issue with homelessness than the other regions. There is a particular issue there. The task force will try to identify why that is and how we can address it.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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That concludes our consideration.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach and his officials.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister, the Ministers of State, Deputies O'Sullivan and Cummins, and their officials from the Department for coming before the committee to discuss such important business. It is a bit disappointing. I imagine questions will be asked about the fact information was not available at the start of the meeting. That concludes our business in public session. I now propose we go into private session to consider other business. Is that agreed? Agreed.