Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 2 July 2025
Committee on Climate, Environment and Energy
Carbon Budget: Minister for Climate, Energy and the Environment
2:00 am
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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We have no apologies for the meeting.
The first item on our clár is an engagement with the Minister on the carbon budget 2031-40. The purpose of the meeting is to continue our discussion on the carbon budget. The carbon budget represents the total amount of emissions that may be emitted in the State in a five-year period, measured in tonnes of CO2 equivalent, under the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development Acts 2015 to 2021. Dáil Éireann referred the latest carbon budget programme, covering 2031-35, with a provisional budget proposal for 2036-40, on 20 May, and we are required to report back to the Dáil by 6 October.
Our witness today is the Minister for Climate, Energy and Environment, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. I welcome an tAire and his oifigigh to the meeting. You are all very welcome.
I remind everyone to ensure their phones are either on silent or switched off. Before I invite the Minister to make an opening statement, I advise everybody of the following as regards parliamentary privilege. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory as regards an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
As regards the format of the meeting, I will shortly invite the Minister to make an opening statement to a maximum of five minutes. Once the opening statement has been delivered, I will then call the members of the committee in the order in which they have indicated to me to put their questions. The committee operates a rota system which provides each member with an initial six minutes to engage with our witnesses. It is important for members to note that the six minutes are for both questions and answers and, therefore, it is essential for them to put their questions succinctly and for witnesses to be succinct in their responses. When all members have indicated and have had their initial engagement, and time permitting, we will do a second round where each member will have up to three minutes for both questions and answers. Please note that the duration of this meeting is limited and, therefore, the times must be strictly adhered to, so I ask everybody to focus on their contributions.
I call the Minister to deliver his opening statement.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh, as an gcuireadh bheith anseo tráthnóna inniu. I thank the Chair, Deputies and Senators for the invitation to appear before the committee today and I very much look forward to working with the committee over the term of this Government. The committee's role in scrutinising the proposed second carbon budget programme is critical and is a cornerstone of the accountability framework set out in the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development (Amendment) Act 2021. The committee's work is vital as part of the democratic process that ensures that our national climate targets are pursued with transparency and rigour. My purpose today is to discuss these proposed budgets with the committee.
Our discussions are framed by the climate Act, which sets out a legally binding objective for Ireland to achieve a climate-neutral economy by 2050 and a 51% reduction in emissions by 2030. The carbon budget system is the primary national legal instrument designed to ensure we meet those targets. It translates our long-term national climate objective into a series of statutory five-year milestones, providing a near-term reference point to guide our domestic policymaking and implementation of that policy. The Act provides a clear process to underpin the adoption of any new carbon budget programme. I know the committee met last week with the Climate Change Advisory Council. As you know, Chair, the council proposes the budgets. The Government, following public consultation, considers these proposals before they are presented to the Oireachtas for scrutiny and final approval. This structure ensures that our decisions are evidence-based and subject to democratic oversight at every single stage of the process.
As the committee is aware, the first carbon budget programme sets out our course to 2030 and was approved by the Oireachtas in April 2022. That programme established a budget of 295 MtCO2eq for 2021-25 and 200 MtCO2eq for 2026-30. Following extensive analysis and updated modelling, the CCAC has now submitted its proposal for the second programme, which is the subject of our discussion today. This proposes a finalised budget for 2031-35. That is carbon budget 3. The proposed carbon budget programme provides Ireland with a strong and deliverable framework for meeting our national climate objectives and our EU and international obligations for climate action and emissions reductions. This pathway outlined in these proposals is ambitious and represents a significant and sustained acceleration of the national effort that is under way. My Department has completed a public consultation on the proposals, ensuring that the views of our citizens and stakeholders inform this process.
I want to be direct about the scale of the challenge. The EPA's projections clearly indicate that, based on current measures, we are not on track to meet our targets for the first two carbon budgets. This is not a reason to abandon our course but, rather, should serve to underline why the legally binding framework is so critical. It removes the option of deferring action and forces us to confront the gap between our ambition and our delivery. Adopting this second carbon budget programme is essential to provide the certainty and stability that all sectors of our economy need for long-term planning and investment within each of those sectors. It solidifies the trajectory to 2040, allowing for the setting of specific sectoral targets and the development of detailed policies and measures in our annual climate action plans that must ensure the legal limits are actually met. Moreover, the carbon budget programme will allow for the development and implementation of sectoral emissions ceilings for the period in question. The process to prepare and implement these ceilings will include consultation with the relevant Ministers - this is a whole-of-government approach - and will provide for technical input from analytical support providers such as the climate action modelling group. As we transition away from fossil fuels and progressively decarbonise, we must ensure that the way in which we decarbonise captures this unique opportunity to improve quality of life for all our citizens. It is important to note also that the transition to a carbon-neutral economy provides enormous opportunities to foster innovation, create new jobs and grow businesses in areas like offshore wind, cutting-edge sustainable agriculture and low-carbon construction.
From a democratic standpoint, it is also important to recognise the mandate for action. The EPA's Climate Change in the Irish Mind found that, in general, the public is highly concerned about climate change, with a large majority acknowledging its reality and impacts. Many are worried about extreme weather and its potential risks to their communities, with strong support for Government action and policy changes.
It is also very important to recognise the progress that Ireland has made to date. While the latest projections from the EPA are a clear signal that we have made real progress, we need to move faster to meet our 2030 targets. This Government is building significant momentum, and the EPA's analysis will help guide the next phase of our work as we accelerate delivery to meet our ambitious climate targets. Progress in recent years provides a foundation for acceleration. In 2023, Ireland achieved its most substantial single-year emissions reduction on record, falling by 6.8%. This is clear evidence that our policies are delivering tangible results. We are successfully demonstrating that a thriving economy and a growing population can go hand in hand with climate action.
Since 1990, we have achieved a more than threefold increase in national income in real terms and supported population growth of nearly 50%. This was accompanied by a significant increase in energy use, particularly until the mid-2000s. The subsequent years continue to post strong growth figures, although now with far greater efficiency in our energy use.
I will leave the statement at that. I circulated it. I am happy to take contributions and questions from members. I thank the committee again for the invitation to be here this afternoon.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. On page 2, he skipped over the line that puts the budget on the record. He might just add that, so we have it. It begins: “This proposes a finalised budget...” Will he just put the two figures provided there on the record?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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Following extensive analysis and updated modelling, the CCAC has now submitted its proposal for the second programme-----
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Yes, just that part, please.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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-----which is the subject of our discussion today. This proposes a finalised budget for 2031-2035, which is carbon budget 3, of 160 MtCO2eq with a provisional budget for 2036-2040, and carbon budget 4 of 120 MtCO2eq.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Thank you. It is now over to members. I will take them in the order in which they indicated. The first speaker is an Seanadóir Noonan who has six minutes.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. I thank the Minister for his presentation. We also dealt with this issue with members of the Climate Change Advisory Council the last day. We had a submission from Professor John Sweeney and others that really calls into question the methodology in carbon budget 3 and the failure to apply the Paris test, moving from reducing the requirement from 160 MtCO2eq to 151 MtCO2eq, a 9 MtCO2eq reduction. They suggest that moving from the Paris test in favour of temperature neutrality is the wrong approach. They propose that this budget not be adopted based on that. Will the Minister elaborate on why this approach was taken?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator for his welcome. Obviously all inputs into this process will be fully considered. On the matter of temperature neutrality, the Climate Change Advisory Council spoke to the committee last week. I received correspondence in that regard this morning, as I think the committee did. That is the whole purpose of this process. There will be different views. The calculations and calculus behind it change and there are different proposals, particularly in relation to how carbon is dealt with. That was brought forward to us by the Climate Change Advisory Council as well. That is the purpose of these discussions. The consideration between now and bringing those carbon budgets to the Oireachtas later in the year will all be taken in the round. I have not formed a definitive view on that one way or the other. Suffice to say, any of the inputs that have been brought forward by experts, who will have different views on this, will be assessed.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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The challenge, and this was raised the last day, is one of fairness and fair distribution of burden sharing. It appears that we are going to overshoot considerably and each of the overshoots has to be carried into the next budget, which will put further pressure on Ireland to meet its targets at the end of the budgetary cycle and, as per a previous CCAC report, will result in significant potential fines and the inability to go to the markets to purchase credits. It will also raise the question of equity with developing countries. It really is challenging. As a committee, we have a duty to tease out these questions and ensure we meet the ambition that is required from a fairness perspective.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I truncated my opening statement but if one looks at ambition, the EPA’s projections are very clear and they show that, with additional measures, we will fall short of our targets for 2030. However, that should not be a reason to raise the white flag on this either because there are certain sectors that have performed well. We have seen significant emissions reductions in 2023, which I referred to. We use one example in relation to renewables. We have immense potential to scale up renewables in our energy system. Just 20 years ago, in 2005, only 7% of our electricity was generated by renewables. Last year, it was 40%. Solar in 2018 accounted for 0.6% of electricity. Last year, the provisional figure, and this comes with a health warning, was that solar accounted for about 10%. Unquestionably, if we look at where emissions reductions were in 2023, there was a significant decrease, particularly in electricity, which was down 21.4%, with industry down 6.1%, agriculture down 4.9% and residential down 7.1%. In transport, particularly with about 1 million extra vehicles on our roads, we need to accelerate the move towards electric vehicles. There are things we can achieve but we need to redouble our efforts and look at how we can support our people in this transition.
I do not think the point is made often enough that in recognising the challenge if climate and the legal and moral imperatives we have to play our part in reducing emissions, there are massive economic opportunities for this country to be at the leading edge of green technologies. We are small enough to be able to move quickly. We have seen that in the renewables area already. We will see construction in this decade of significant offshore renewables and realise their potential. This will change our energy system for generations into the future.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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The Climate Change Advisory Council has stated clearly there should be no new fossil fuel infrastructure by 2039. In the Minister’s view, does that rule out the need or economic cost of developing public LNG infrastructure in Ireland?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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No, I do not think it does. The climate action plan speaks very clearly about energy security. The Government made a decision on the floating storage regasification unit, FSRU, that there be a State-owned and operated liquid natural gas reserve in the event of something happening to our existing connections. That was a risk we could not ignore. In her public commentary on this, Marie Donnelly, as chairperson of the council, fully understood why that decision was taken. It is not contrary to our climate plan in my view. Others will have a different view but I do not think it is a risk we could ignore. That will be on a temporary basis.
Ciarán Ahern (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I thank the Minister for coming in and engaging with us. I welcome the language he used in his opening statement, in being so frank that we are not on track to meet our first two carbon budgets and that this is removing any option of deferring action and forcing us to confront the gap between our ambition and delivery. While the language is welcome, we will see the colour of the Minister’s money soon when the national development plan is released and the Government's priorities in the NDP when it comes to prioritising public transport over the development of roads and, I hope, investment in offshore wind generation capacity, the national grid, water infrastructure and all of that.
Following up on Senator Noonan’s point on the State-backed LNG terminal, the Minister has told us he believes it is consistent with our emissions targets and carbon budgets. He has been talking about this State-led LNG reserve. In recent days, An Coimisiún Pleanála has written to the Minister asking him to clarify his policy and whether he supports the commercial Shannon LNG project. It appears that by opening the door to a State-led LNG project and allowing for the importation of fracked gas, he has opened the door to commercial interests as well. This is a relevant factor in the decision-making process of the planning authorities. Will the Minister write to them and clarify his position?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for his questions, which I will answer directly.
The Energy Security in Ireland to 2030 report was clear on the risk to Irish society and the economy should an unexpected event happen to our gas supply, most of which comes from Scotland. Between 25% and 30% comes from Corrib and the remainder is imported. We have seen activity around our gas interconnectors and communication cabling by other, foreign actors and shadow fleets. It is something we cannot ignore. To reiterate, the FSRU will not just be State led but State owned and managed through GNI. The infrastructure we put in place can be used for other things in the future like offshore wind. The floating infrastructure that will be purchased, which is the boat, could be sold on in future. However, we need to have that supply should something happen to our existing supply so we can effectively keep our hospitals and communities going while that is fixed. It is clearly set out in the Energy Security in Ireland to 2030 report and in the Cambridge analysis relating to the report, which I also published. I will use this opportunity to say there is some disparity between the cost I had given and the cost in the Cambridge report. The cost I had given on capital was the initial capital upfront cost. There will be operational expenditure too, and the operational expenditure cost is coupled with the initial capital. There was a question between €300 million and €900 million. There is €300 million on capital and approximately €50 million per year to manage the facility. It is a significant investment for our people. I have not seen any letter from An Coimisiún Pleanála yet. I have certainly not received it. The planning authority may ask a Department about the Government position. Genuinely, I have not seen a letter and have not received it. When it comes up, I will inform the committee if it is appropriate for me to respond to it. I have not seen it.
Ciarán Ahern (Dublin South West, Labour)
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It was reported this week that it was sent to the Minister.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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Maybe it was.
Ciarán Ahern (Dublin South West, Labour)
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On energy security and the report, we are being told we need to invest in our Defence Forces at the moment to increase the security of our territorial waters and things like that. I suppose one would query the reality of some of the perceived threats. I also want to talk about how the Minister will ensure the climate and gas demand conditions on any gas reserve will be transparently and robustly reflected in legislation.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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We will have to bring legislation forward to establish it. The monitoring of the facility will be clear. I will just say that the threats are not perceived. They are real. There are real threats to our communications and energy infrastructure. One point I did not come back to the Deputy on was how we will continue to reduce our dependence on fossil fuel, which we are doing. The NDP will be clear in grid investment and ORE investment. The national DMAP will be critical, and we will further support that, so we have an accelerated DMAP for our whole maritime environment to further accelerate offshore renewables. As regards the reporting on the facility, it will be State owned. It will be run through GNI and will be absolutely transparent. I can assure the Deputy of that. These decisions are not taken lightly. However, in my view it would have been dereliction of my duty as a Minister on behalf of our people to ignore a risk put forward so clearly by two independent reports as a matter that needed to be addressed. The Oireachtas will have a big role in this.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for giving his presentation. He mentioned that Marie Donnelly said something in her public commentary. Has she said something different in her private commentary?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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It was just to say from what I heard. That is all I mean.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister accepts that we are not on target and will not meet the 2030 targets. Every expert organisation, including the EPA, SEAI and the CCAC, says we are not going to make them but are going to blow past them. The Minister will accept it is essential that we follow the science on this. I think he would accept that, would he?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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As I said earlier, my comment about the chair of the climate advisory council related to her remarks about the FSRU. With regard to the EPA projections, they are projections, and they are clear. I said that at the start. They are not predictions in the sense that is exactly what is going to happen. What it does is ensure that we should all redouble our efforts to accelerate the delivery through additional measures to work towards achieving our climate targets to 2030, which we are legally bound to do.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but the Minister said himself that we are not on track.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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We are not on track. That is being honest.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Does he accept we are not going to meet them in 2030?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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No. I fully accept that we are not on track. I have given examples of certain sectors that are doing well. Thankfully, with a growing economy and population we have been able to do that, and our emissions are still lower than they were in 1990.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is saying he thinks there is a chance we might meet the 2030 targets.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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We have to redouble our efforts to do everything we can to get as close to the 2030 targets as we can. I also say to the committee that there is life after 2030 too. I will be quick because I know we are timebound here. If you take on renewables, they will be key to us meeting our overall targets.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Of course, and I am caught for time as well. Is he really saying there is a chance we are going to meet the 2030 targets? Is he realistically saying that here?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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To answer the Deputy's question again-----
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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It is "Yes" or "No". Does he think we will, or we will not?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I know the Deputy is a solicitor. I am not in court. I am trying to actually answer the questions that have been put and to contextualise them.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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He is here to answer questions, so will he answer it?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Deputy give me one second? The projections are clear. I met the EPA and I thank it for its work. It shows sectors that are working well, and it shows where there are gaps. It will be really challenging to meet the 2030 targets. However, I am not giving up on that yet, no.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I am not giving up on it yet.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. There is a target of 51% reduction in emissions, but the projections are that we will only secure between 8.8% and 23%. I think the plans are more of the same. I know the Minister is not quite giving us a clear answer, but there are potential penalties if we do not hit these targets. It has been said it could be anything between €10 billion and €20 billion. Does the Minister think those fines are realistic, or what kind of fine is he preparing for?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I need 30 seconds to answer if the Deputy wants to put this in context. The energy council met the week before last in Luxembourg and this is a discussion right across the EU. There is no definition as to potential fines or penalties, or no calculation in that regard. That is just pure speculation. There are a number of states, the majority of those in the EU, which based on their projections as they stand right now without additional measures will not meet the 2030 targets. That would be a matter for discussion with the Commission. I have had discussions with the Commission myself in that regard. I think it would be more appropriate, should there be a fine structure, that those fines would relate to further-----
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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-----investment in-----
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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He offered to put it in context within 30 seconds.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I am chairing the meeting, not Deputy Daly.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Minister considering that we may have the fines for not meeting the targets? Is he taking that into account?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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There is no formula right now. There is no formula published. There is no informal formula as to what measures would be taken by the Commission regarding states that do not meet their targets. That is just speculative. I have said this is something I have discussed with the Commission regarding not just showing the efforts, but the progress Ireland and other states are making and, should there be financial impositions, what they would potentially look like. The better thing would be to instruct and direct states to invest further in their own climate measures such as renewables.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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He is considering that there could be fines.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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Everyone has to consider that.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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He is building that in. The Minister mentioned EVs in his opening statement. We are way short of the 100,000 target on EVs. We are way short on the number of EVs on the road at this stage. I think the Minister would accept that. On heat pumps the targets are also way back. Does he accept that the way it has been sold has made it more difficult for people on lower incomes to access EVs and heat pumps?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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First, we will hit our EV targets for this year.
The first quarter returns were good and it looks like we will hit the targets on that. The overall target to the end of the decade is about 969,000. It is unlikely we will hit that but we are projecting to well over 600,000. I have answered about this in the Dáil as well. I have a submission regarding how we might refocus the EV grant and give certainty around that, particularly for lower- and middle-income households to make them more accessible. I am also looking at whether we can do something for rural areas.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister accept that the plan that has been there to date with rural areas and lower incomes has not really worked?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I do not accept that. There has been a significant increase in EVs over the past four or five years. The target set for the end of the decade is very exacting but I do not think anyone could-----
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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There was but there was an increase in quarter 1. We could throw figures back and forth at each other. If the Deputy looks at the reality, he should just go out on the streets and see the number of EVs that are there. Real progress has been made. It is about accelerating that. The same goes for heat pumps.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Ahern asked a question I intended to ask. Does the Minister plan to write to An Coimisiún Pleanála to clarify the situation around LNG sites and our climate law?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I said to Deputy Ahern that I have no letter-----
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I know the Minister said he had received no letter from the commission. Is he going to write to it?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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Why would I? I will respond to it if it writes to me but the policy decision-----
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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So the Minister does not plan to write to the commission.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I am trying to be helpful. I was asked by Deputy Ahern about a letter from An Coimisiún Pleanála. I genuinely have not received it.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister write to it to clarify that?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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We will chase up with the board and see where that letter is. If the letter is appropriate to respond to, and I say this as someone who used to be the Minister with responsibility for planning, in some instances, it may be appropriate or it may not be. I will not know until I see the contents of the letter. The policy decision Government has made regarding State-owned, State-led and State-operated emergency gas reserves is very clear and has been made and published. It has been a matter of record in the Dáil and the Seanad and a matter of record by way of a Government decision at Cabinet. Regarding any further clarity that is required, if it is appropriate for me to respond on foot of a letter that comes from the commission, I will do so. I am being honest with the Deputy; I have not seen it.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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So the Minister is not going to seek it. He also mentioned peat extraction. It was reported in the news last week that the EPA claims that illegal extraction is widespread and causing damage to biodiversity in local areas. It is also having a knock-on effect on smaller extractors. The increase in illegal extraction will have an impact on people who are doing it legally. It seems completely unfair that there is one set of rules for people who are doing it legally and no rules for people doing it illegally. What does the Minister plan to do about that?
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Did the Minister mention peat extraction?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I did not mention peat extraction but I am happy to answer Deputy Cronin's question. I did not mention legal or illegal peat extraction in my opening statement. All of us are aware of the report from the EPA last week and its findings about what seems to be commercial peat extraction that is being carried out illegally. That is something of great concern to all of us. It does not relate to smaller operators that are extracting peat for their own use.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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It is going to have an impact-----
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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Enforcement of that is a matter for local authorities. The EPA was very clear in what it said about what it perceives to be a lack of enforcement at local authority level. What I have done is write to the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy James Browne, to ask him to engage with the local authorities in question that are subject to the EPA report. Government has been very clear regarding to who can extract peat for their own use and who cannot. Commercial operations like this are not permitted but enforcement is a matter for local authorities.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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My next question concerns carbon fines and having to purchase carbon credits because it does look like we are not going to reach our targets. Has the Minister asked the Department to look at what kind of fines we can expect to pay and possibly front load that money into climate initiatives such as offshore renewables?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I mentioned to previous Deputies that there is no formal or informal formula regarding the imposition of fines. This will require further discussion with the Commission. The Deputy will see in the NDP review that will be published by the middle of July not just the ambition but the finance behind acceleration of renewables onshore and offshore. This is why the Government decision about the accelerated DMAP is so critically important. There are five projects on the east coast we want to see under construction. They are all matters of further information request from An Coimisiún Pleanála. We want to see them go to construction. Later this year, we will have a further auction relating to onshore renewables. We have done very well on onshore renewables, with about 40% of our electricity generated through renewables last year . We are a leader in Europe on it but we can do more. We have a target of 80% of our electricity being generated through renewables by 2030. The projection shows us falling short of that but not significantly so. This is a gap we can look at making up. I have no formula regarding what fines would look like but I have asked officials to look at what they may look like. This is an opportunity for me to say, and I have said this to the Commission, should states be subject to financial impositions such as fines, I would regard that capital as being much better invested in the State's additional investment in climate measures, renewable energy and climate adaptation. That is the position Ireland will be taking subject to Government approval.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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There are two issues relating to LNG. The first is the potential for a State-owned, State-led and State-controlled temporary emergency LNG facility. The second is whether a commercial LNG facility is allowable or provided for under State policy. These two issues get conflated a lot. What is the State's policy position on commercial LNG? Will the Minister inform An Coimisiún Pleanála, which is clearly looking for that guidance, of that policy position?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is aware because we discussed it that the State's position regarding the reserve is clear - State-owned, State-led and State-operated.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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The commercial aspect.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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We do not want to see and we will not see an increase in reliance on fossil fuels. We are transitioning away from fossil fuels. I do not have any correspondence from the commission. I am not saying it did not send it. There has been a report that it was sent in the past couple of days but I have not seen it. Where any clarity is required, that clarity will be given but I do not know what is in the letter.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Perhaps it did not send the letter. I do not know. It was reported that it had been sent in. What is the State's position on commercial LNG? This was an issue in the High Court when An Bord Pleanála was assessing previous applications. I imagine that it is also an issue in this instance under the current application.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I will talk in general. I do not want to talk about a specific application.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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In general, does the State have a position-----
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I am just putting that on record here for fear that anyone would think that I am making any type of comment on an existing application. First and foremost, An Coimisiún Pleanála sits at the apex of the planning system. It makes decisions independently of Government. Our climate action plan 2025 is abundantly clear that the State's objective is to transition away from fossil fuels, and that includes LNG. However, it is not contradictory for the State to secure its energy supply. What we are doing in this instance and this instance only involves a State-led and owned gas reserve. I do not think I can be clearer than that.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I do not think that is clear. Will the State allow for a commercial LNG facility?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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It is not a matter-----
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I have asked the Minister this previously and I know the planning authorities are separate. However, it is the State's responsibility to set the policy framework. From a policy perspective, will the State allow commercial LNG facility?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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It is not a matter of the State allowing it. The State is clear that we want to transition away from fossil fuels, including gas, including LNG.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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So, it would not support-----
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I do not want to be evasive and I am not being so. I have answered many questions from the Deputy on this. There is an existing planning application there that I am not referring to, but I can say the State's position is our future in energy is in renewables. I cannot be clearer than that. Our whole effort will be to accelerate the delivery of renewables. The FSRU is about energy security on a temporary basis. We are not in any way looking for additional LNG facilities from a Government perspective but I will not reach into the planning process. Should I be asked for a policy statement with regard to a clarification by An Coimisinéir Pleanála in relation to this, I will assess the correspondence that comes in and answer that in the appropriate way. Our target is 80% renewables by 2030. We will not do that if we allow additional gas facilities.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Technically, the Government could have 20% that is coming from a commercial LNG. Unfortunately, they are not-----
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Deputy, the answer is pretty------
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I do not think so. In the previous programme for Government, there was a ban or a "No" on it. I am looking for something similar.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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We set aside-----
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, Minister.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Previously, the position was articulated clearly. That articulation is no longer there. I am seeking a firm articulation of that and it appears An Coimisiún Pleanála is as well.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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The policy decision of the previous Government was set aside to permit us to move forward with the FSRU. Let us be clear about that. I said that in the Dáil in answers to questions from Deputies and was very open about it. The other aspect of that is my predecessor took a position on an existing planning application relating to fracked gas. The legal advice provided, which I have since seen on two occasions, stated that it was impossible to draw a distinction between fracked or otherwise, so that policy position has been set aside.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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That policy position has been set aside. What is needed is a firm policy. I will not get it from the Minister today.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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If I am asked for a clarification and it is appropriate for me to answer it, I will assess the letter, answer it and advise the committee of that.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I have a supplementary question. In the event a commercial LNG facility is developed----
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, Deputy, I got some breaking news on the letter. Go ahead.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Excellent. In the event a commercial LNG facility is developed, would the Minister consider there was still a case for a State-owned one, which would cost approximately €1 billion?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I would rather the State control its gas reserve. That is the decision Government has taken. It is better if it is in State hands. We or a future Government would decide when that was no longer required and what we could do with it. It is a significant cost. I would put it that it is a considerable investment and a significant part of that would be reusable for other activities, like offshore renewables.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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The risk is that if a commercial one is developed, it would be hard to justify spending €1 billion on a temporary State-owned one.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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The cost is about €900 million over ten years. That includes capital expenditure and operating expenditure. The Government decision is clear. The working group is in place already. There have been meetings with that group across GNI, my Department and myself. Work is advancing on planning, legislative provision and so on. If we see a private operator getting permission and moving forward, will we row back on the decision made? No, we would not, because it is better that the State owns it.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I have a few questions on the budgets but I first seek further clarity. Is the position that the Minister is against new commercial LNG infrastructure in Ireland?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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Our position is we want to transition away from fossil. I have answered that question. The Chair will decide on that but-----
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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"Transition" can mean anything.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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It means "moving away from".
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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The Minister has said what he is in favour of. I was asking if he is against-----
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I am aware there is an existing application. My comments as Minister for Climate, Environment and Energy could be taken as an interference in planning. I say respectfully that I do not want to do that and I do not want to be in that position. The Government's decision relates to State-owned, State-led and State-operated.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I know about the "State-owned" part, so I will move on to the budgets.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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Just by way of clarification for the committee, I have been informed the letter from An Coimisiún Pleanála was handed in to Adelaide Road just today - our old office, by the way, in Adelaide Road, not even the existing office. Let me read it.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Senator, just----
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I am going to move to questions on other areas, so that is fine.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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We heard from the Climate Change Advisory Council. The key discussion here relates to the budgets. I welcome the Minister's acknowledgement of the legally binding element in terms of 2050 and the 51%. He understands that to be a legally binding target. We had a concern about the budgets from the CCAC. I think this was from Meabh Gallagher, the scientific officer. None of the scenarios informing the budgets' up-to-date proposals was able to achieve 51%. I am not in the school of saying abandon the target; I agree with the Minister that we should be going for it. Will he look to strengthen the ambition in the budgets to create a budget scenario whereby we reach 51%?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is right. That will have to be considered. The purpose of this hearing and of the significant work of the CCAC over 18 months is to assess that. The CCAC looked at multiple scenarios and did not see a pathway to 51% with existing methodology. We have to look at what else we can do to reach 51% by 2030. I make the point as well that 2031 and 2032 are there and are legally binding. We are making progress and have to accelerate that.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I have a number of other questions. This is our core focus. There is another piece that is missing. There were a few elements assumed and not assumed in the draft budgets. There was a failure to include the fact that the US had left the Paris Agreement. We have the 51% and the ultimate objective of doing our part. Does the Minister believe we will need to consider substantially increasing effort-sharing to maintain that ultimate objective without the US?
There is another assumption in the draft budgets relating to the idea of all land being rewetted appropriately. All of their land-use scenarios involve rewetting. Peat extraction is a serious issue in that context. Will the Minister comment on that?
The next question flows from that. We have declared a climate emergency. The Minister was in government at the time. What emergency measures is he looking at in order to address what is required? He said countries should be encouraged to invest further but rather than waiting to be encouraged, surely we should invest far more significantly now to avoid fines. One hundred and sixty something million on just transition seems very small next to a potential €20 billion in fines.
Accountability is at the core. What accountability will there be for Departments and Ministers who fail to reach their 2025 targets? Will it be manifested in their budgets? Will there be consequences in terms of areas of control? How do we ensure Departments deliver for 2030, particularly if they do not deliver their 2025 targets?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I will answer the Senator’s last question first in the time I have. Compared with our European colleagues, Ireland’s reporting on climate action plans is annual, which means they are more exact than most of our colleagues across Europe. Accountability is built in, even to the action plan preparations year on year. We are now moving on CAP 26.
I wish to respond to the Senator’s emergency measures piece. It is about putting the architecture in place. Planning is critical. The Planning and Development Act the previous Government brought in is absolutely critical to ensuring we can accelerate delivery, particularly of renewables and other infrastructure we need as a State to meet our climate targets. Both climate adaptation measures and energy are critical. Looking at Senator Noonan, who is sitting beside Senator Higgins, I think of the work done in the area of marine planning and the creation of MARA. All of those things and that infrastructure are in place from a legislative perspective. The Planning and Development Act is going to be critical to ensuring we can accelerate the delivery.
The other thing is the national designated maritime area plan, DMAP. A decision this Government made early in its term was to post ORESS 1. The south cost DMAP was to show we have a pipeline of projects.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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There are probably a lot of questions on energy coming, so I wish to focus on that land use piece. That is the area where we are failing.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I will come in on that. A good piece of work has been done on the land use review, although it is not just about the land use review. There are three Department involved in this regard, namely, my Department, the Department of agriculture and the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government. The report was received on 2 May. Although there was some commentary publicly that this report had been sat on for three months, that is not true. It is being accessed. I met with the chair of the land use review, Geraldine Tallon, who did a good job. I had a detailed briefing with her the week before last. The Minister, Deputy Martin Heydon, and I will be working through that with the Minister, Deputy James Browne.
The Senator is right, however. The peat extraction we saw would shock anyone. We have to let that be dealt with, however. Some significant work has been done in the past five or six years with regard to bog restoration and bog rewetting. Bord na Móna has done incredible work in that regard. I have visited many of those restored bogs. A lot of significantly good work is happening in that regard.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I wish to briefly ask about one of my other questions. I asked the Minister whether we need to look at modelling that reflects the United States’ exit and one that reflects fairness. Having a model that reflects fair share was another key issue.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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The Paris Agreement forms part of our domestic legislation. We are bound to it. Whether the United States is part of it is neither here nor there in the context of our domestic situation. Obviously, we have a bigger job to do as a globe. At COP25 later this year in Brazil, I am sure we will be looking further into the future as to what all countries can do in this regard, particularly when it comes to some larger countries maybe not playing the part they previously agreed they would.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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But in terms of fair share-----
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, Seanadóir, I am going to have to-----
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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No. The Senator has gone way over time.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I am happy to get it in writing, Chair.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I have gone way over time.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I ask for a comment, even in writing subsequent to this meeting, on the fair share modelling.
Naoise Ó Cearúil (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht teacht isteach anseo inniu. There seems to be a bit of an expectation to have a mystic Minister with some sort of climate crystal ball. We have to live in the real world sometimes. That is why my questions will focus primarily on the modelling used for our carbon budgets. I look at the carbon budget proposal for 2031 to 2035 as well as the 2036 to 2040 proposal. The two questions I have relate to longer term projects. My first question concerns the private wires Bill. If the private wires Bill were to be enacted, for example, and there were to be a lot of discourse on how data centres are using up so much energy from the national grid, if they could create their own energy on site, how would that contribute to those budgets? Is the impact of the private wires Bill being considered? While we do not know its impact yet because the Bill has not been enacted, has any type of modelling been done around that?
My second question concerns nuclear energy. Has any modelling been done on nuclear energy? Regardless of my perspective or anyone's perspective on nuclear, the reality is that we are importing nuclear energy in to this country. Hypothetically speaking - I am speaking of modelling - if nuclear energy was created on this island, how could that positively impact our carbon budgets and take away a lot of the dependency on fossil fuels? When we speak of offshore renewables and the targets around them, we are looking to the future. Nothing is guaranteed yet. From a nuclear perspective, is it being considered? If it has not been considered, that is fine. Is it something the Minister's Department has considered in any type of modelling when looking at these carbon budgets? My first question relates to the private wires Bill and my second is on nuclear energy.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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First, we have an ongoing piece of work on the private wires Bill. Within the week after next, I expect to bring a policy statement on private wires to Cabinet where I will get approval then to draft legislation. It is critical we operate under the Electricity (Supply) Act 1927. While it is good that our grid is owned, North and South, by the two states, there are opportunities for point-to-point connections. The issue of storage is something I have discussed with Deputy Ó Cearúil before. I have discussed it at length with Deputy Heneghan as well. The policy statement will go to Cabinet within the next two weeks, certainly before the recess. We need to get on with drafting the legislation. A lot of reviews have been done on private wires and we know what we need to do in the short term, but it will need to be built on. I wish to get the legislation published because there are opportunities, especially around renewables, own-source electricity generation and energy parks, but they need to be underpinned by legislation.
With regard to the CCAC’s modelling, as I said earlier to Deputies, I am not going to comment specifically in this regard because we have to assess what it has sent forward to us. We need a bit of time to do that to see what the rationale was for the different approaches it took.
For Ireland, nuclear energy is not on the table. It is not even in the room. That is my perspective. Other European countries use nuclear. They see it as a clean energy. There is a waste element with it that is significant too. It is not something I am looking at or intend to look at as Minister for the environment. It is important to state the long lead-in times associated with nuclear energy.
The Deputy raised offshore renewables. I see them as being in the near term. This is within the next five to six years. When it comes to the potential for Ireland, our last auction was well subscribed. We have a further auction, Tonn Nua, later this year. That auction is well advanced and there is interest in it. While quite significant increases in costs to the development sector have made this more complicated, Ireland is well positioned with regard to offshore renewables. My big focus is on getting the first ORESS 1 under construction in this decade. We can do that. Thereafter, we will provide a pipeline through the national DMAP that, as the Deputy knows, the Government brought forward. We can accelerate that DMAP and have it done by 2027, looking at our whole coastal and maritime area.
Naoise Ó Cearúil (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister. In the context of offshore renewables, what are the particular hurdles the Minister sees in terms of it being a near-term ambition? What are the main hurdles the Minister sees and how can we overcome those?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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The most significant hurdle was planning. To be fair, these are the first offshore wind farms built since Arklow. We only have one offshore wind facility. Five of the projects are a matter of further information from An Bord Pleanála. In fairness, this will be a learning. I met with the ORESS 1 developers myself. They are all committed to proceeding. The new planning Act will be very important for the next phase, as will the marine planning Act and the establishment of MARA, which is in place and up and running now. I see the next phases under the new planning architecture as being much more streamlined. There will still be challenges, however. These are complex projects in the context of our capacity.
That is why the national DMAP will be important because we will de-risk projects. We have already purchased survey data we can share with the sector too. Obviously, it is then about investing in our grid onshore to take that offshore energy on shore and be able to distribute it. That will be the subject of price review 6, which will see multiples of price review 5 and well over €10 billion of investment in a five-year period in our grid. Initially, the biggest challenge was planning but we have learned a lot through this process. I expect the next iteration and planning applications under Tonn Nua will not be as difficult as they have been heretofore. It is important to say the development sector is committed to Ireland.
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus leis an Aire. Tá sé deas a bheith ag caint leis inniu, go háirithe faoi wires príobháideacha. Níl a fhios agam an focal é sin. Fillfidh mé ar an rud a bhí á phlé agam leis sa Dáil. Obviously, we accept we are time bound and there are looming fines. However, it has not been fully defined as to how much those fines will be. Does the Minister agree we should be investing the equivalent of the estimated fines we will have to face to buy the credits of other EU countries that do reach the targets? Should we not be rushing that into our ports now? We spoke about this before and the investment in Cork Port is €90 million. There is a good €300 million or €400 million we need to put into other ports and Cork Port itself to make the fast-tracking of our offshore renewable energy, ORE, much better. On the curtailment element of our ORE, how is the Minister's Department planning on making it easier to trap the energy when there is a huge surplus and massive amount of energy going in? Is green hydrogen on the cards? Will electrolysis stations be used?
I really welcome what the Minister said about private wires and that this will be fast-tracked. I thank the Minister for all the engagement he has given me. It is great to see he is prioritising this and I know it is a huge issue for himself as well. On end to end, can the Minister give us any idea what the policy statement that will be brought out will be? Will it allow for protection of eco-villages or microgrids and for people who have their own on-site power and want to power themselves? For developments, especially with private developers, when they have their own nearby solar farms, will the owners of those units be the owners of the solar farms or will they be stuck in a bit of a trap with the private developer? That is something else we do not want to happen.
I had a recent meeting with the ESB. It has a document on private wires. I am 100% sure the Minister has seen it. The ESB is supportive of it but is just worried - rightfully so - because it does not want this to be the wild west. I do not think it will be. The Bill I proposed, which I am trying to get fast-tracked, is an interim measure whereby anything under 5 MW is exempt from needing permission. That is something that would be very good, as 5 MW is the sweet spot and I want an update on that.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for his interest and input on the advancement of private wires. We are probably about two weeks away from getting the policy statement agreed and the memo at Cabinet, so I cannot go into too much detail on it right now because it will be subject to Government approval. I am endeavouring to go after the low hanging fruit that is there. Even the legislation I will bring forward will only be the initial legislation that I believe we can build upon, along with point-to-point connections with storage. That will become a lot clearer within the next couple of weeks but obviously, I have to consult further with other Departments. We need to advance and move on this as a matter of urgency. I hoped this would have advanced more heretofore but it did not. We are really getting behind that.
On dispatch down and curtailment, grid investment will be critical for that. That is why with price review 6, we see the draft determination this week from the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU. That will move forward and we will get approval later in the year. Storage is critical as well. We need to build up our storage facilities, particularly for renewables, be they onshore or offshore. We have the policy framework in place now for Ireland with the electricity storage policy framework. We do not have the required facilities we need at this stage and that needs to be a focus.
On our grid, is not just about generation. The distribution piece is critical. We have to build resilience in our grid. That can be done in a relatively short period of time. I met ESB Networks again on Friday. I had a detailed meeting with it on that. The ESB might be in front of the housing committee this week and I am sure it will be before this committee, too. These are the things that can be done over the medium term, that ,is between now and 2030.
A critical part of grid resilience is interconnection. The Greenlink interconnector is up and running and fully electrified. It has the ability to power 350,000 homes and transfers energy between Ireland and Britain. The Celtic interconnector - our first interconnector to continental Europe - is being built. Frankly, the only one that needs to be built is the North-South interconnector. We have an all-Ireland energy market. The North-South interconnector has been consented to North and South and it needs to built. That will drive down energy bills and allow more renewables onto our system.
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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I agree on the North-South interconnector. I welcome what the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, said when I raised this in the Dáil last week. The estimated decrease of 5% in electricity bills that it could lead to would be very beneficial to families that are struggling.
While we are speaking about energy poverty, I ask that EnergyCloud be fast-tracked. When we have energy curtailment, it could be used to heat a boiler or to give someone assistance when he or she needs it. On regulations, especially for with council housing, I ask that it be made policy that this tiny gadget, which can allow people to switch when there is curtailment, be put into each council house. I can touch base with the Minister on that later.
Briefly, I want to focus on the EV fleet infrastructure. The Minister has already touched on how it is lacking. We saw how when China decreased the cost of solar panels, the influx helped. The Chinese EV market is booming. When it increases and floods the EU market with EV vehicles, we need to be ready. As the Minister said, we have reached our EV targets, but that will keep going. Generally, people go for the cheaper option. If there is an EV vehicle there, they will go for it and it will come. We need our grid to be ready for it. A lot has been done but there needs to be fast-charging as well. I would like an update on that.
I will come back in on private wires. I thank the Minister for the update on that matter.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I met EnergyCloud again yesterday.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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EnergyCloud, Clúid, CHI and a couple of housing bodies are involved. They have reached 1,000 homes so far, including 500 in Fingal. It uses the power that would not have been used otherwise to heat water in households.
We have significant work to do on EVs but if we look at where we are at right now, we will achieve our 2025 target. We have more than 177,000 EVs on the road at this point in the year. We are seeing the transition in our public transport fleet through the use of sustainable fuels like HVO alternatives as well as electric vehicles. The overall target to 2030 is exacting but we will be close enough to it. We may not hit it but I am reworking some of the grants for EVs to make them even more accessible. We are on target with our renewable fuel blending ambitions and increasing the fuel blend that is there. By way of example, I opened a Panda and GNI compressed natural gas, CNG, station just last week. It was another CNG refuelling facility for heavy goods vehicles. That is really welcome and there are 20 more on the way. The infrastructure is being built up.
I published the national EV charging plan for infrastructure, which details where the additional EV chargers are going. We are working with local authorities right across the country on that. That infrastructure is being built up at an accelerated rate.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for coming in to meet us. My first question is on peat extraction. Some of the other members have alluded to it. The resources are not at local authority level. Local authorities do not have the skills or experience to enforce it. Essentially, it may lead to European fines. Has the Minister a plan in place for how we can ensure the local authority collaborates with the EPA to ensure those resources are used on a joint working basis?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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It is a very good point. In my previous job, we resourced the local authorities significantly. Additional resources will always be required. We fund local authorities through the local authority climate action plans as well.
Planning enforcement is a matter for each of the local authorities. As I said earlier, I am engaging with the Minister, Deputy Browne, on it because we do not want to see these types of breaches in peat extraction. They are devastating for biodiversity in those areas and do untold damage. We provide significant funding through the climate action regional offices, CAROs and the local authorities. This is not me passing the buck because I will be working with the Minister, Deputy Browne on this, but the planning enforcement element needs to be focused on in those particular local authorities. I was taken by the commentary the EPA gave in its report that it perceived a lack of urgency among some local authorities in dealing with it, or a lack of prioritisation.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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One of the points here is that domestic users of peat are getting caught in the crossfire. If you look at a county like mine, County Offaly, we have towns where 40% of households are using peat for central heating. That brings me to my next point, which is about the Minster's consideration of HVO or pellet stoves as an intermediary, rather than going from turf to full-on retrofit with 40% of housing stock. It is simply logistically impossible. What consideration is the Minister giving those two fuel options?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I am giving them serious consideration and I am glad the Deputy raised them today. A policy decision was taken in the past, particularly about conversion of fossil fuel boilers, that there would have to be a full conversion to heat pumps. There are other technologies and fuel sources. It was a concern in the past, especially with regard to HVO, that we would not have the required supply of HVO to be able to convert existing systems to using it. I am actively looking at that. There may be an opportunity to do that.
On a full retrofit, if we take the Deputy's area in the midlands, which has seen massive change, the just transition needs to support that change. We were able to retrofit significant numbers of social homes, but for families in private homes it is a significant cost. Regarding the SEAI grants that are available, I have a submission from the SEAI, which I received after meeting it on a few occasions, to look at options for how we could reframe the grants to look at - not the full retrofit which is costly; people get a big grant for it- breaking them down further to make them more accessible. To answer the Deputy's question directly, yes, HVO and pellets need to be looked in relation to conversion of existing fuel boilers.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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On the whole area of data centres, we certainly need to look at the carbon budget, but I have a concern about the pragmatism and remaining appealing and operational. Some major stakeholders have already anchored here and are reliant on a workable policy. I am looking for a timeframe from the CRU on when we can expect to see a policy on data centre grid connections.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is right about the public discourse around this and new technologies. These are big foreign direct investments, FDIs. They use energy and that energy use is managed through grid connection. The large energy user draft policy was published by the CRU. It also went through a full round of public consultation. The best information I have right now is that the final policy statement, which will bring a plan-led approach to large energy users, including data centres but not exclusively them, will be ready in September or October this year.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The point has to be made that they are the facilitators of the energy. There are small, medium and large businesses - businesses of every scale - as well as households that require this. They might be the facilitators but they are harvesting that data and energy on behalf of individuals.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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We need to look at it through a different prism.
I would like to make two final points. With EV chargers, we are at a stage where we need to make a call that we only install high-speed charging units. Some archaic systems are going in and they are literally not being used any more. We need to make a stand, considering the advances in technology and the cars with bigger batteries and longer ranges, which need a faster charging time.
In social housing in particular, there is an opportunity for us to lead the way by making it a requirement that, where local authorities are developing housing, they put in solar PV panels as standard. We are currently at zero with regard to air to water heat pumps, but they are still drawing from the grid and we should be encouraging more independent generation at individual level if we can.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy makes a fair point. The quality of our housing stock, in both private builds and social housing, as regards heat pump technology has been second to none, particularly in the past ten or 15 years. The solar PV grants have been rolled out and most new homes now have solar PV. The design standards for social housing, as the Deputy will be aware, are a matter for the housing Minister, Deputy Browne. He made comments on the standardisation of it just yesterday. It makes sense to have solar PV energy. It is a cheap, clean form of energy. If we look at how households have responded to the SEAI grant for it, the growth has been exceptional. Rooftop solar is a big part of energy generation now. We are doing well in it, but we can always do better. The focus from the Government has been on the retrofitting of older social housing stock and rightly so. In the past four years, we retrofitted just short of 15,000 social homes to a very high standard.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I just have two questions. On the national DMAP the Minister referenced, part of me says it is very far away. We seem to be indicating the end of 2027 for a national DMAP. In the context of the risk of that holding up a lot of offshore wind investment, it is critical. How confident are we that we can meet that target for the DMAP to be available, if not bring it forward?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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The offshore renewable electricity support scheme, ORESS 1, is in planning. There are five development sites under it. We have the south coast DMAP as well, which is available and Tonn Nua is basically the second auction. They are part of the pipeline. The national DMAP will be completed by 2027 and it is for our whole maritime area, so there are probably 15 to 25 sites. That is really the pipeline after 2030. On the development sites we have right now, talking to the development sector, ORESS 1, Tonn Nua and the south coast DMAP, especially finding a route to market for the three other sections, is more than significant for the development sector for us to realise the additional gigawatts that will come from them and get them into our system. The national DMAP will then provide an opportunity for us to look at the next phase, the post-2030 phase. The sector - stakeholders such Wind Energy Ireland and others - responded well to this by saying that if we hit the end of 2027, that would be optimal from their perspective.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Second, the Minister referenced a few marine projects. Where are we as regards the protection side of the marine areas and the marine protection Act? With all the welcome incoming investment in offshore wind - the Minister has set out the various projects at different stages - I understand the previous Government had marine protection legislation, but it did not progress. It is important that it does. Can the Minister give any commitment on that?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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Senator Noonan could write a book on that because the two of us were heavily involved in it and it was a great disappointment to us that we were not able to publish that legislation before the most recent election. There are opportunities potentially in the DMAP. The previous Government, and I have to credit Senator Noonan with a lot of the work that was done on this, was able to increase the marine protected areas from approximately 3% to 10%. This Government is committed to continuing that to 30%. The legislation is not the sole preserve of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage or my Department. That section on the marine environment will move over to my Department. I believe we could do some of our marine protected areas, MPAs, through the national DMAP.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Is it the Minister's plan to deliver that 30% through an Act or-----
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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Even if there is an Act, you have to designate. The Act itself would not necessarily designate the specific sites. It would give the ability but we can do that now anyway.
That section of the draft legislation is moving over to my Department. It is the right place for it to be as we have the rest of the marine. The last update I had with regard to the actual legislation was that it will be mid-2026.
As I mentioned, we are also looking at the DMAP. We might not need the legislation and this is something I have not made my mind up on but if we can get to 30% and beyond by using the national DMAP, that would be a way forward. I discussed this with the environmental pillar when we met last week in plenary session and I have asked it to think on this. Our objective is to get to 30% marine protected areas. Senator Noonan did much work on this Bill and will tell you privately some of the issues we had in that regard and the different matters we continue to grapple with. I would like to do it and do it sooner. If I can do it through the national DMAP, we will. Again, I will keep the committee informed of the progress there but we are committed to the 30%.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. That is good to hear.
We will go back around for a second round. Several speakers have indicated. I remind members that this meeting is about the carbon budgets for 2031-35 and 2036-40 and they should please bear that in mind with regard to the 160 MtCO2eq and 120 MtCO2eq figures that have been set out in the budgets. The first speaker is Deputy Daly.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister mentioned earlier the fracked gas legal advice. Who wrote that legal advice?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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The legal advice was provided to the previous Minister.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I cannot tell the Deputy exactly who but I imagine it came from the Office of the Attorney General.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister provide us with a copy of that?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I do not publish advice from the Attorney General, as the Deputy will know, but I have put on the record of the Dáil on a couple of occasions that legal advice was received and it very clearly stated that a distinction cannot be made between different types of liquified natural gas.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister kind of gave the impression earlier that fines for failing to meet the 2030 targets may not be an issue, but they are quite clearly set out under various sections by the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council. Under the effort-sharing regulation, fines range between €5 billion to €16 billion. Under the land use change and forestry regulation, fines ranging from €1.6 billion to €5.8 billion may be incurred. Fines relating to the renewable energy directive range from €0.5 billion to €4.4 billion. Given it is less than five years away, does that help the Minister in any way to estimate what exactly the fines could be? Would we not be better using that money to renew or invest in more renewable energy and more of a State-led approach?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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As I said in answer to Deputy Cronin earlier on, there is no formal or informal formula published regarding any financial penalties, fines or whatever one might call them. It has been discussed at European level informally at the last Commission where it was discussed with the Commissioner. If there is a financial imposition, it should be for states to determine the amount that should be invested by in additional measures on climate and energy. I do not think we are the only ones of that view.
This is not sticking my head in the sand, however, because there could be the potential for fines in the future. IFAC did its work based on assumptions it made. That does assist in relation to-----
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister think those figures are broadly correct?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I cannot say whether they are or not. IFAC used its own assumptions there.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister think they are wrong?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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No, I do not. From the Commission's perspective, it has not set out a formula for the calculation of any potential financial penalties, fines, impositions or whatever we want to call them. That is why I cannot say whether the figures are correct.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Data centre energy consumption, as the Minister will know, accounts for nearly a quarter of Ireland's electricity demand. The CRU recently published a draft new connections policy for large energy users. Does the Minister think this rapid expansion is consistent with the carbon budgets and climate targets, in light of the CRU's policy?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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In the context of data centres here and the data they hold in relation to existing and new technologies, I take it we all want to be at the cutting and leading edge of new technologies, such as AI. Many of those which hold data within this country are also some of the largest FDI investors, domestic investors and large companies. I do not conform to the idea data centres are bad. They are part of FDI investment which underpins tens of thousands of jobs-----
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I did not say they were. I did not say that.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine but many of the Deputy's colleagues have said it. Energy usage must be managed. The Deputy referred to the CRU's decision on the LEUs. That was a draft determination. I am informed the final version of that will come out in September or October. This will be a plan-led approach to data connection which will show the way forward. It will not be a Klondike approach but a plan-led one. That 21% is the last figure I received on energy usage. There is headroom to 30% by the end of 2030 and that relates to data centres that have existing connection agreements in place.
Our challenge now is to expand our grid further for all the development we need, to realise the potential we have in further renewables, to make our grid more resilient and to have more capacity within it. That is what PR6 will be about.
Ciarán Ahern (Dublin South West, Labour)
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To follow up on that, private wires are relevant to data centres. In the Minister's proposals for private wires, will he ensure they will be used for sustainable energy only, particularly for large energy users?
Going back to the CRU's policy on large energy users, it said it does not have a mandate, not even under section 15 of the climate Act, to require them to use sustainable sources for data centres or other large energy users. Will the Minister give the CRU that mandate? Will he make it more explicit that State agencies carrying out their duties are required to take our climate goals into consideration?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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We all await with anticipation the final determination of the CRU with regard to LEU policy. We certainly saw in the draft the obligations put on large energy users in respect of reporting emissions and site-specific reporting, as well as looking at reusable heat waste energy and how this can be used further and the potential for district heating and that type of thing. The CRU has said - I fully respect its independence on this - it was not within its remit to identify what type of energy source a large energy user would have. That element is a matter for the Supreme Court case.
That is the CRU's view. From our perspective, to get to the Deputy's question on private wires, the desire is that the private wires piece will be based on renewable energy. That is where we are moving and have moved significantly. If we go back 20 years, 7% of our electricity was generated by renewables. Last year, it was more than 40%. For clarity, the private wires policy statement from the Government will detail our initial steps forward and we will hopefully get permission to draft the initial legislation. I do not see this as the comprehensive piece of legislation that will do everything everyone wants but it will be a start in going after the things we can do sooner and in the near term. We will then build on that. I did not want to wait another two or three years for another review.
Ciarán Ahern (Dublin South West, Labour)
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That is fair enough. The fear around some of these large energy users is that, in being required to create their own energy but not necessarily connect to our overall grid, that energy will come from non-renewable sources. That was the basis of my question and I hope the Minister will consider that.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that.
Ciarán Ahern (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Very briefly, in light of the renewable heat obligation, RHO, that is coming down the tracks, has the Minister considered increasing the percentage of HVO or other renewable fuels to be used as part of that, rather than maintaining the current rate of 1.5% to 3%?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we are considering increasing the blend. We will increase the blend with regard to HVO elements within diesel and petrol. Home heating is something I answered Deputy Clendennen on. We will look at what role HVO could have within the home heating sector, particularly using existing heating infrastructure that would not require an initial full retrofit. That is something we are looking at right now.
It might be useful at some point in the future to do a session on the renewables piece, particularly in relation to transport and alternative fuels and what we are doing in relation to home heating. It might be a good idea to do that when I have the work done with regard to the SEAI grants but I am certainly open to discussing it.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I welcome the Minister's comments on the nuclear industry but I will be writing to him and to the Taoiseach about the damning report on the Sellafield reprocessing plant. I ask him to engage with his counterparts on that.
On the issue of turf cutting, it is industrial strip mining and it is important that the resources are front loaded to the local authorities to deal with this once and for all. It is doing huge damage to the environment but it is also damaging from a carbon perspective and in trying to meet our targets.
In relation to the MPAs, it is disappointing that we are moving into the DMAPs approach with it. We had made significant progress on the MPA legislation under the Minister's leadership in his previous role and the work we did together. There is a €24 million MPA LIFE project attached to it. A lot of the public engagement has been done and there was a novel element in the MPA Bill around public participation. I do not think the DMAPs approach is the correct way to do it and would have serious concerns about that.
One thing I looked at when we were running into trouble with the MPA legislation was the possibility of amending the existing Wildlife Act to designate marine natural heritage areas. That would get us there quicker and could achieve the same objective. We could include regulations around the public participation and engagement piece. I ask the Minister to have a look at that option to see if it is possible. I think it would get us to where we need to be a lot more quickly and it would be a much more inclusive and expansive process. My concern about the DMAPs process is that it is largely focused on offshore renewables. We have to see our marine space for its carbon sequestration function, its blue carbon value, which is critically important. This is not just about marine biodiversity. Protecting our marine biodiversity has carbon benefits as well. It also has benefits in terms of spillover, in that fish species and other features are protected. That might be a better way forward.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I want to be very open with the committee. I will look at the DMAPs piece but that is not just related to offshore renewable energy, ORE. DMAPs can be used for anything. I take the Senator's point but I have not given up on the draft legislation. I am trying to find a way to advance it more quickly. I will look at the Wildlife Act, which we discussed during the previous Administration, in terms of what we might be able to do there. The public participation piece is key and that is why I floated this idea with the environmental network when I met it last week. I wanted to get people's views on this. All of us want to advance the MPAs further, past 10%. The issue is identifying the best way to do it. Those three options are there and it is for us to figure out the best way forward. Again, for the record, DMAPs are not just related to ORE. They can relate to any element of planning that we are doing. We are getting a lot of data as part of the national DMAP. It might be an option but I can assure the Senator that I have not settled on that.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I share the concerns about not having stand-alone legislation to deal with marine ecology and marine protected areas. Inevitably what will happen if we amend other legislation, whether it is DMAPs or the Wildlife Act, is that there will be a watering down of it. I am finding it hard to understand this. Three years have been spent developing this stand-alone legislation. What are the challenges? How could it be quicker to start a new process now and amend other legislation if we have already spent three years developing it?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I am just going to look at it afresh because it is a new Administration. As I said, the marine environment function is moving over to my Department, which is the right thing to do. That whole maritime function will now be under the one roof, as such. I have not made a determination as to whether it will be quicker. We want to do it properly. We are committed to the 30%. We want to see that done. Good progress was made and the increase from 3% to 10% over four or five years was very significant. It was the biggest scaling-up in such a short period. I have not made a determination on it. I am assessing it right now. I want to see what is the most efficient way of delivering. It could be a case of looking at the advanced draft legislation that we had but we did have challenges there in getting agreement between Departments on how we would move that forward, to be frank. Now that the marine environment function is with the rest of the maritime function within my Department, I am certain we will be able to resolve it. I assure the Deputy that we will engage with the committee on this because across the political spectrum, regardless of our views on may other things, this is something that we are all ad idem on. I really do want to see it advanced. Fair Seas and others with whom I have engaged are still as committed as they were previously and I have reassured them of this Government's commitment to achieving the 30%.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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That is great to hear. Even though it is a new Administration, the Minister did have responsibility for this in his previous role and the fact that it is the same Minister dealing with it now should certainly help to bring it to fruition. It is really important that there is no watering down and that it is stand-alone legislation. I take the Minister's point about going from 3% to 10% but the reality is that 10% of MPAs that we have in Ireland are essentially paper parks. There have been no additional protection measures implemented in them, even in the most recent one, Páirc Náisiúnta na Mara. That has been in place for over a year but no additional protection measures have been put in place in it. My understanding is that there is not even an indication on marine maps as to where the marine parks are. On navigation maps they are not identified. What we have seen, from an ecological perspective, is a lot of discussion about having these parks and celebrating that fact but they are not actually making any difference whatsoever in the marine environment. Indeed, last year I spoke to an international scientist, who has travelled the world doing surveys, about the park off Dingle. He told me that he had never come across a marine area that was as devoid of biodiversity as that new marine park. I would question the Minister as to why no additional measures have been put in place there at all. There is huge potential and while we may have 10% of marine protected areas, we have not protected them but have just named them as MPAs. It is really important that the new MPA legislation brings in really strong regulation, enforcement and new rules about what can happen in those particular areas.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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Páirc Náisiúnta na Mara Chiarraí , which is on land and on sea, was a good opportunity to put that designation in place. It is just over a year old now and it is possible to see where the MPAs are located. I am not sure about navigation maps but will check that. Certainly what we have designated is defined. The MPAs legislation, in whatever manner that is done, will give us the opportunity to set down the agreed uses within an area. I would not dismiss what the Maritime Area Planning Act did. That represented the first time any Government had brought forward legislation to have marine planning architecture for our entire maritime area. One could argue that was one national DMAP. Now there are very significant rules, regulations and legislation around planning in the maritime area through the aforementioned Act brought forward by the last Government and which Senator Noonan and I were directly involved in. That allows us to step it up further. The new agency, the Maritime Area Regulatory Authority, was established under that legislation. I met with the authority in Wexford just a few weeks ago. Obviously, its function in relation to maritime usage licences, MULs, and maritime area consents, MACs, is very important in ensuring that people cannot just go and do what they like in relation to infrastructure such as sea cables, offshore renewable energy facilities and all of the other marine activity. That authority is now in one place, in Wexford and is staffed by experts. We now have a commissioner at An Coimisiún Pleanála level who is a maritime expert and planner. There is a maritime unit in there now. None of these things existed five years ago. I agree that we need to do more but a good foundation has been built.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister believe that meeting the increased demand for data centres is compliant with our climate laws? At the moment we have an existing first-come, first-served basis for new grid connections.
Does the Minister think that is consistent with our climate laws?
I also raise the fact that data centres gobble up so much of our energy. So many houses are needed which will require new grid connections. While a lot of data centres are required to produce their own energy, they still need the grid as a back-up. With his Minister for energy hat on, what can the Minister do to ensure that we invest in our grid and that houses are prioritised, rather than on this first-come, first-served basis that exists at the moment?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy raised a couple of significant things. Price review 6, PR6, which is effectively the investment in the grid between 2026 and 2030, will be in place and agreed this year. It will be multiples of what PR5 was and will be at least €13 billion. This will allow the expansion of our grid, both in capacity and distribution of energy across it. PR6 will provide for the 50,000 additional homes a year that are planned over that period. We will plan for economic growth as well.
Under PR6, we do not envisage any new connections for data centres in that period. I mentioned the headroom that is given from the 21% to 30%. That comes from the existing data centres expanding or those already with connection agreements. We have to expand our grid for all types of economic and social development. This idea that data centres are gobbling up energy makes it sound like they are wasting it. They are not-----
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely. They are using it for a reason, namely, to hold the data we, our businesses and all our people use. Many of these are companies with European headquarters here that employ tens of thousands of people. Other countries in Europe would give their right arm to have the footprint we have with regard to data in this country. We are managing it carefully. Deputy Cronin makes a fair point. The grid connection agreements are decided independently of us and grid connection agreements have been refused. Our challenge is to expand our grid capacity, both in generation and distribution, and we will do that.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Is there anything the Minister for energy can do to ensure that housing is not in second place to-----
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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Housing is not in second place.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I can assure the Deputy that housing is not in second place. Housing is the number one priority. We must grow our economy and society through new schools and new businesses. All of those things have to be catered for. There are lots of demands, but it is not a binary choice between housing or data. That argument is a simplistic one and I do not agree with it. We have to be ambitious-----
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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We all hear about housing being delayed waiting for connections to the grid. It is a problem.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to grid connection, I do not know of any housing development that has been refused a grid connection. That is the first thing. It is a different thing.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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We have seen a significant increase in housing output over the last four years. The human resources and capacity are needed to be able to deal with that. There have been instances where there have been delays with connections, but not extensive ones. Where they happen, they need to be addressed and dealt with.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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To pick up on that point, we need to start looking at this through the metric of climate benefit versus social and economic benefit. We will be fooling ourselves if we think that data centres will not be built. We would lose out to other EU member states. Why would we not want them here in Ireland? If it is good enough for an EU partner, it should be good enough for us. We need to sprinkle in a little bit of reality into this debate regarding data centres. If they were being built in a Third World country, I would understand but they are not. There are already examples where data centres have overlooked Ireland and are moving to Spain because it is simply taking too long. We need to get back into a space of being more agile, more responsive and more proactive in delivering in this space. We will see a social and economic impact as a result of our tardiness in it.
I want to discuss community benefit funds with the Minister. I do not mean to sound parochial, but we have made a lot of progress in Offaly in this space. One could argue that, through the process of buy-in, we have not utilised community benefit funds in the most effective way possible. I fully appreciate that we need to have a near neighbour scheme and that we should be supporting the likes of Tidy Towns, but we are missing an opportunity in how we can support strategic, lasting legacy projects through the likes of these benefit funds, where we essentially achieve buy-in as a result. Listening to some of the recent discussions, I know the Department has recently produced a rule book on community benefit schemes. Section 2.4(12) of the rule book states:
The Generator is not allowed to appoint any local or national public authority or body as the Fund Administrator according to Section 2.2(6) of this Rulebook. However, Fund Committees are permitted to seek advice from Local Authorities or other local or regional public bodies to devise their Fund Strategy.
Unless we have an umbrella group like that, we cannot achieve that strategic agreement. In the likes of Offaly, it could be roads on peat foundations. Other counties might have different priorities. Unless an umbrella organisation such as a local authority or local development groups are given the responsibility of co-ordinating with many of the contributors to this scheme, we will lose an opportunity. I have given the example of high-end, luxury GAA jerseys going around if we are not careful. We are creating a scenario where they are trying to spend the money and are failing to do so. We need to see the sporting facilities, the roads and community facilities. That has to be done through a collective strategic fund administered by a local authority or local development company.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy.
I agree with his point regarding data centres. Ireland has done well. Other countries see this as a success in FDI. We have a footprint that has to be managed. That is why the large energy user policy, which the CRU will produce, will be important. It will set a plan-led way forward. That is what we need to do. Management is needed, which is understood within the sector. That could be for a large data centre or for another Intel. I have spoken enough about the criticality of grid investment. It is the one thing we need to do on the energy side is that grid investment because it will set us up well into the future.
The Deputy raised Offaly. I commend Offaly. I met him in Tullamore at Accelerate Green. Through Bord na Móna, Offaly County Council and others, there is an area there with approximately 17 start-up firms supported through the just transition fund. These firms are employing people and developing leading-edge technologies within the renewable sector. It is going very well and is creating a hub of expertise, knowledge and enterprise in the region. The rates that have come to Offaly County Council with regard to renewables have been significant. Looking at the Deputy's near neighbour as well, one can see opportunities there that Offaly has grasped and that others have not. That is something that will be reflected in the national planning framework with regard to regional targets on onshore wind.
We are looking at how the community benefit fund interacts with a community and makes sure it is spread appropriately. I am at the early stages of that, but I have asked officials to look at it and see how it can be improved. There are other projects that we could support in a more strategic way, but local oversight is needed as to what is appropriate and to ensure the different funding is linked in. It is also important in relation to future energy pricing.
One thing we have not yet had an opportunity to discuss today but I assume we will - I have discussed it with European colleagues - is how the retail price of energy is struck here and in other European countries that are advancing renewables. Furthermore, our links to the wholesale gas price are not giving the benefit to citizens across Europe - we are not unique in this at all - as to how our energy is priced and levied on domestic and business consumers. I have established the affordability task force within my Department, which I will chair.
One thing we have not talked about today, because we are not talking about energy pricing, is the whole area of affordability that is critical to our citizens and businesses. We have to try to advance that.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Members are indicting, so I will give anyone who wants to speak 60 seconds. We are on our last round. They must fit it into 60 seconds or not at all.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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This is the rapid-fire round. On data centres, I absolutely agree we have to have to be strategic about them. We need to work out how many we can afford to have in the country from energy security, energy demand, energy pricing and emissions perspectives. I welcome the CRU report and hope that will be delivered shortly. The sum of €14 billion the ESB requested for grid investment is only in PR6 and would only be for data centres currently operating. What will we do about grid investment for any future data centres?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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PR6 investment is not just for enterprise or for data centres. That is for grid investment over a five-year period.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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The ESB only factored in the existing data centres.
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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It is factored in 21% to 30%. That is with existing connections. Obviously, we are doing other things through the NDP to accelerate further grid investment. That is a matter for discussion right now between my Department, the Minister, Deputy Chambers, and myself, so we are working that through.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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That has not been identified and the funding for that has not been-----
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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PR6, as Deputy Whitmore rightly stated, outlines what that is grounded on - development over this five-year period. That is very clear over the five-year period. On the data centre side, it deals with those with existing connections. We have to look past that, because these projects - not just data centres but larger companies as well - will have a three-, five- to seven-year outlook as to future developments with planning and that kind of thing. We have to set that roadmap forward, but the big focus in this period is grid resilience which we saw the absolute need for during and post-storm Éowyn. There is also the further investment needed to underpin the development we know is happening during the five-year period such as schools, houses and, yes, more data but that is at 21% to 30%.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Apologies, Deputy Ahern wants to come in.
Ciarán Ahern (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Minister will love this. I will go back to LNG. Can I get a sense of the Minister's decision-making process around that? He referred to an existing planning application. I will not ask him to talk about that. At the time, was the Minister advised that allowing for the State's strategic reserve could or would lead to planning applications for commercial LNG being revisited? Did the Minister consider any further clarification of the policy about the importation of fracked gas via commercial LNG infrastructure at the time he was making the decision around the strategic reserve? Was that perceived as a risk at the time?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I understand the question. Anybody can put in a planning application in for anything in this country. It does not mean the application will be upheld. I am not the planning Minister. A corporation or organisation can put in a planning application. What I was focused on was energy security and dealing with the risk identified by two independent reports that stated there was a serious risk should something unforeseen happen and we needed to shore that up.
In regard to the advice on the differentiation between fracked gas and other types of gas, the advice that was put forward twice to my predecessor was clear. I did not need to see that revisited.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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It is fair to say from the committee's respective there is huge support for renewables. All of the good work being done in progressing renewables is part of meeting climate targets. Equally, there is a lot of interest in this committee in the marine protected areas Act and seeing those two areas develop hand-in-hand so we end up in the right place. I know it is on the Minister's agenda and he is deliberating on it. Will he consider writing to the committee or else coming back in at some stage to explain where we are in that area because it is deemed important?
Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail)
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I would be happy to. Certainly, I will give the committee an update. I am looking through the options, so I will not repeat myself, but it is important the committee is informed. I really look forward to engaging and working with the committee as we work through policy areas. When I see big policy areas, such as marine protected areas, that in itself linked with DMAPs could constitute one session. I would be more than happy to attend. If the Chair can control Deputy Daly, I will come back in.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I propose we publish the Minister's opening statement on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed. On behalf of the committee, I thank the Minister and his officials for taking part in our meeting on the extremely important matter of carbon budgets.