Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 2 July 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport
Issues Facing the Road Haulage Industry: Irish Road Haulage Association
2:00 am
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss the opportunities and challenges facing the road haulage industry. On behalf of the committee, I am pleased to welcome Mr. Ger Hyland, president; Mr. Eugene Drennan, officer management committee; Mr. Paul Jackman, officer management committee; Mr. David McArdle, honorary treasurer; and Mr. John Nolan, honorary secretary, Irish Road Haulage Association, IRHA.
Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard I ask members partaking via Microsoft Teams that, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.
I call Mr. Hyland to make his opening statement.
Mr. Ger Hyland:
I thank members of the committee for the invitation to appear before this important committee today. Before I start my opening statement, I will introduce the members of my team: Paul Jackman, David McArdle, John Nolan and Eugene Drennan.
This committee has a very important role to play in the transport industry in Ireland. We are delighted to be invited today. If members have all read my opening statement and are happy enough to take it as read, that is fine. If they want me to read it out, there is no problem.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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It is important to read it for the record.
Mr. Ger Hyland:
That is fine.
The Irish Road Haulage Association is the representative body for the licensed haulage sector in Ireland. Founded over 50 years ago, the IRHA has a key remit to represent and promote the interests of Ireland's licensed haulage industry, both nationally and internationally. This is achieved through a very clear focus on promoting professionalism, excellence and safety in road transport.
Ireland, as an island, is more dependent on road transport than any other country on mainland Europe with up to 70% of national freight movements and 98% of the import and export of goods having to be transported by road. Our members' dedication and commitment, both within Ireland and on trips across Europe, ensure that the goods and products we need to keep our economy and society functioning effectively and efficiently are delivered without delay.
We really value the role and work of this committee and wish it well as it undertakes its programme of work. We cannot emphasise enough how incredibly important it is to have a committee of the Oireachtas with a specific focus on transport with a strong regulatory oversight of relevant Departments and State agencies. This committee plays a vital role in ensuring that State entities operate effectively in accordance with their mandates and can play a vital role in advocating for change or improvements, including the removal of bureaucratic blockages. It is so important to have a committee with such an oversight role.
As a sector, we are keen to bring a wide range of issues and concerns to the committee's attention in the hope that it can seek answers, responses and actions from the relevant Departments and agencies involved. I will concentrate on a number of key concerns in this opening submission but will be happy to elaborate and discuss additional issues and interests if time allows in questions and discussions with committee members. In the interests of time, I will provide an outline of each of the key issues of concern to our sector at present.
A review was carried out of the role and functions of the Road Safety Authority in 2024 and final proposals are awaited on its reconfiguration. The RSA plays a major role in our sector with responsibilities for: driver testing; driver licensing; driver training, including CPC; road safety promotion, awareness and research; supervising the NCT and the commercial vehicle roadworthiness testing, CVRT; enforcement of road transport regulations; and acting as lead agency on the Government's road safety strategy including advising the Department of Transport and the Minister on road safety policy matters. As a sector that has a direct interaction with the RSA, we believe the time is right for change and we are looking forward to seeing and working with the radical changes to ensure that it is efficient, effective and delivering to its statutory mandate. At present the legislation to reform the RSA seems to be stuck in the "all other legislation" section of the legislative calendar. It needs to be priority legislation, not something on a legislative wish list. We believe this is something that the Department of Transport needs to address urgently.
There have been issues with connectivity between Ireland and Britain, particularly between Dublin and Holyhead. The maintenance of strong and robust trading links between Ireland and Britain is of critical importance to our economy, both in the context of trade with our nearest neighbour and given the continued use of the land bridge across Britain to access continental Europe. The closure of Holyhead Port following storm damage last year highlighted the frailty of the existing links and exposed a fundamental weakness in our transport and logistics chain. The commitment and resilience of IRHA members ensured that alternative routes became viable, without shortages in goods or delays occurring in the important run-in to the Christmas period.
The sector incurred considerable costs because of the closure of the port and we have sought to secure some supports from the Department to help alleviate these costs, given the exceptional nature of the contingency arrangements required. Ironically the substitute arrangements that were put in place in Holyhead to manage the loss of one of the two ramps at the ferry terminal have led to a far better sailing schedule between Britain and Ireland with vessels being spaced out rather than bunched as occurred prior to the port's closure.
This schedule ensured a far more sustainable and frequent sailing schedule, which has benefited all stakeholders.
We are deeply concerned that the port operator, Stena, will revert to the old schedule when the storm damage is finally repaired this month. The current schedules are an improvement on the previous ferry timetable and should be kept in the interests of efficiency, competitiveness, connectivity and the environment. It is important the commercial interests of the ferry companies that ply between Ireland and Britain do not take precedence over the national trading interests of Ireland and Britain. We have contacted the port operator, Stena, as well as the Irish Government, the Welsh Government and the EU Transport Commissioner to seek support for the retention of the current schedules. Between the relevant authorities, there needs to be a direction to Stena and the ferry companies to ensure they maintain the current schedules, rather than revert to schedules which reduce choice and competition and increase congestion and pollution.
Along with many other sectors of the economy, our sector has had significant challenges with labour shortages, both for HGV drivers and mechanics. There are a range of different strategies required to address these shortages. First, we need to engage more people into the sector. We have worked hard to build a positive and constructive traineeship scheme in conjunction with the ETBs. These traineeships are funded through SOLAS from EU education funds. Despite several ETBs having scheduled traineeships fully booked out, they will be unable to run these future HGV traineeship courses as the funding is not being provided by SOLAS. This traineeship needs to be continued if we are to address the structural challenges in getting new people into the sector.
Second, for the foreseeable future, while there is a shortage of suitable candidates in Ireland, we need to ensure we have a functioning and effective work permit and licence exchange system. At present, the system is completely dysfunctional and operates in no one’s interest. For example, if a licensed haulier wishes to bring a non-EU HGV driver into Ireland after exhausting all other avenues, he or she must deal with a nine-step process involving more than eight separate Irish State Departments or agencies, which can take up to 12 months to complete. There are different sequential requirements imposed by different State rules, including labour market tests, employment permits, visas, PPS issuance, residence card, new Irish licence and additional training before a driver qualification card is finally issued. Such a prolonged, convoluted, expensive and uncertain process does absolutely nothing to address labour shortages in our sector in Ireland, particularly given the tight competition we face with other countries which are equally suffering labour shortages but have efficient, flexible and dynamic processes to expedite the acquisition of new skilled workers. The current system serves absolutely no one and only adds to frustration on the part of applicants, licensed hauliers and our customers who need to have continuity of service. This problem requires a whole-of-government solution to close off the silos that have been allowed to develop. If necessary, the Department of the Taoiseach needs to co-ordinate the different Departments and agencies to sort out a bureaucratic mess.
One issue which I am sure all members of the committee are keen to ensure is that we can operate effectively as an all-island economy in order that barriers to trade and commerce across the Island are removed. Regrettably, there are two serious impediments to the operation of all-island economy from our members’ perspective.
The first impediment is the imposition of a HGV levy, which is a UK Government requirement applied on non-UK HGVs north of the Border, despite no reciprocal levy being imposed by the Irish Government on hauliers from Britain or Northern Ireland. This levy applies to HGVs that are not registered in the UK and must be paid before entering Northern Ireland. The rate can be in excess of £10 per day. If a driver forgets to make a payment, the fine for non-compliance of payment of the HGV road levy is a £300, payable immediately at the roadside. If the driver cannot pay the fine on the spot, the vehicle may be impounded until payment, including storage costs. This cost can really mount up for a licensed haulier servicing customers north of the Border or traversing Northern Ireland on a regular basis each week. The charging of this levy should be reviewed, not just in the context of the unfairness and negative impact on the all-island economy, but also considering the Irish Exchequer’s commitment to part-fund the A5 update, whenever that project gets through its regulatory hurdles.
The second impediment concerns the imposition of new tachograph rules that apply on vehicles engaged in international journeys. Under the EU mobility package, vehicles involved in such journeys require a new smart tachograph version 2 to be fitted. The current designation of Northern Ireland as an international destination means HGVs involved in intra-island trips need to meet this requirement, without having left the island. This is an issue that needs to be addressed by the Department of Transport, in conjunction with the Directorate-General for Mobility and Transport in Brussels and the Northern Ireland Executive, specifically the Department for Infrastructure. Hauliers face additional costs and administrative burdens otherwise.
Fuel quality remains an ongoing issue in Ireland. Fuel quality is an important issue as it impacts on a range of different considerations, including engine efficiency, emissions levels, reliability and safety. A fuel that is unsafe can seriously damage an engine. At present, there is no State regulatory body in Ireland overseeing compliance with the relevant EU fuel standard of EN590.
With the issue of fuel quality and the resulting issues for our members ever-growing, we approached several Departments and State agencies in pursuit of some answers. We discovered in Brussels that not only is there no State oversight of fuel quality in Ireland but the obligatory sampling and testing regime, as prescribed by the EU under the ETC, has been given over to fuel retailers Ireland, namely, Fuels for Ireland. This anomaly, which in no way protects the Irish consumer or the Irish supply chain, makes for another failing by the agents of the State to accept and deliver on its responsibilities. We are calling for an urgent review of this current unacceptable situation where our fuel industry is self-regulating, especially when so many different compromising components are being added to our fuels. The IRHA is also pursuing such an outcome through our Brussels office, the IRU and the EU Bio Diesel Board, where considerable traction has been achieved. The Department of Transport needs to get a grip on this issue and oversee the appointment of an independent authority to monitor and maintain fuel quality. Having the industry body that represents petrol retailers carrying out the function is not a good idea, no matter how well intentioned the scheme may be.
As I stated at the start of my opening statement, there are a myriad of issues of importance to the Irish Road Haulage Association in addition to the ones mentioned. We are happy to discuss these with the committee if time allows, as well as answer questions on the aforementioned issues. I thank the committee members for their attention and we look forward to answering any questions they may have about our sector and the issues of current concern.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Hyland, chair and president of the Irish Road Haulage Association, for that opening statement. As Chair, I wish to be clear that I fully recognise the importance of the road haulage sector in Ireland. It is the backbone of domestic and international trade. As Mr. Hyland said, probably 90% of all goods, on average, are transported by road. Hauliers connect businesses and they then connect those same businesses with our ports and airports. The sector supports so many thousands of jobs, which are crucial both for rural Ireland and on a regional level.
In response to the opening statement and before I go to individual members for questions, reference was made to the role of, and engagement with, the RSA. The IRHA met the RSA in July of last year. Has it met the RSA this year?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I will come back to that during my slot. I note the minutes of the previous year's meeting with the RSA and I will focus on that later.
The second issue is connectivity between Ireland and Britain and that ties in with the post-Brexit logistical adaptation that the IRHA had to make. It is so important that the current schedule as it applies to Holyhead is maintained. I invite our guests to comment on the recent decision to axe the Rosslare to Cherbourg service. On the issue of labour shortages, what is the average age of drivers at the moment?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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We will dig deeper into that later too. On the all-Ireland economy, I have spoken previously about the extent to which we are investing in so many cross-Border projects. We have committed €600 million to the A5, for example. How do we reconcile that with charging every vehicle over 44 tonnes £10.30 and, on failure to pay that in advance, an on-the-spot fine of £300? The Minister was here last week and he committed to raising that issue at the next meeting of the North-South Ministerial Council. We will watch developments closely in that regard. I cannot reconcile that commitment to cross-Border projects and then, in the context of the all-Ireland economy, charging HGVs over 44 tonnes a levy. I know the levy is scaled and it depends on the weight of the lorry but it is up to £10.30 and there are on-the-spot fines too.
I am sure we will talk more about the steps the IRHA is taking in the context of the greening of the economy. The first member on the schedule is Deputy Pa Daly.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I thank our guests for coming in and for their presentation. They mentioned driver shortages and the trainee programme. What is the right target to have on a traineeship programme for drivers and mechanics? Is there a target that the IRHA would like to see achieved? How many graduates does the association believe there should be per year? In the opening statement, the IRHA states that even though there is a packed trainee schedule, future courses will not be going ahead because the funding has been cut by SOLAS. In any of its meetings, was the IRHA given any reason for the funding cut?
Mr. Paul Jackman:
I thank the Deputy for the questions. Currently, we anticipate a deficit of between 3,000 and 4,000 truck drivers in Ireland. EU-wide, it is between 250,000 and 300,000 and that figure is anticipated to grow to 550,000 by the end of the decade. The main reason is the demographics of the driver population, to which the Cathaoirleach just alluded. If we look at the figures for the driving population that is under 25, no matter what country we look at, we see that it is between 2% and 5%. Our young people are not engaging with the industry and that is reflected across a lot of sectors in Ireland and across the EU.
On the ETBs, we had the traineeship programme, which is a minimum of six months, in seven ETBs but it is only in four now. They have pulled back primarily because of the RSA. Currently, there is a funding issue but the primary reason was that the ETBs could not complete the logistics of the course because they needed training blocs of drivers and the RSA failed to deliver, in spite of us having meetings with SOLAS and the RSA and getting a commitment on that. The traineeship programme involved getting the rigid vehicle licence and then stepping up to the articulated vehicle licence. The whole traineeship became disconnected. One driver got a test locally no problem, another had to go to Athlone from Cavan to get a test, another had to go to Kilkenny and so on. It just became chaotic so they were unable to deliver the courses.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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There was a lack of foresight and planning. Would that be fair to say?
Mr. Paul Jackman:
Yes, and on the funding, there is a review going on in Brussels of all of the EU's education programmes. That has stalled it because SOLAS is reviewing all of its programmes. There are lots of programmes, including the traineeship, to which funds have not been committed so the contractors have not been engaged. I spoke to one of the contractors yesterday. She has let all of her staff go because there is no work for the next three months due to the funding issue. The two ETBs that contractor was working with cannot give her the go-ahead on the courses, even though the courses are fully booked out.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Did they give a reason for cutting the funding?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Hyland mentioned that the Government had extended the quota for mechanics and HGV drivers by 200 permits. Is that enough?
Mr. Ger Hyland:
No, it is very far short of what is needed. For example, initially there were 100 permits for mechanics but they were gone before the end of January. The Government extended it by another 100 but everyone of us at this table could take a mechanic or two tomorrow morning if we could get them and every one of us could take three to five drivers.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Hyland think the Government needs to step up to the plate and increase the quota?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Are there any specific changes the IRHA would like to see? There seems to be a turnaround time of about 12 months. Are there any specific issues with bringing in non-EU drivers? I know a lot of them come in from South Africa. Is there anything specific that the IRHA would like to see?
Mr. Ger Hyland:
The only non-EU drivers available to us at the minute are South African and it is taking up to 12 months to get them through the system. There are nine different regulatory points to be crossed, including licence recognition and so on. We need to have a one-stop shop for this. A driver coming in from South Africa today has to go through the same regulatory hurdles as a person coming in here through the international asylum system. For somebody coming in here to work, there needs to be a completely different, streamlined approach such that they get their licence and their recognition within two or three months, as is the case in other countries in Europe where drivers are finding it so much easier to go to work.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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What does Mr. Hyland think the shortfall is? How many drivers do we need to bring in?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I have just one final question on the HGV levy. The IRHA accepts that the levy is a UK Government requirement. Does it also accept that it is a reserved power, as Mr. Hyland said, and is imposed by the UK Government. I understand that the IRHA has had meetings with Ms Liz Kimmins, the Minister in Northern Ireland with responsibility in this area, and is probably aware that she has presented a paper to the British Government and has been lobbying Whitehall to have this levy removed, not just temporarily but permanently. As our guests will be aware, during Covid it was scrapped for a while.
Then the UK Government reintroduced it. Having spoken to Ms Kimmins, is Mr. Hyland aware she has presented a paper and has been lobbying Whitehall, which imposed these reserve powers, to have it scrapped entirely?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Hyland will have just a minute to answer.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Is that unilaterally? Who told Mr. Hyland that?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Hyland is aware it is a reserved power and has said-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Deputy, we have to move on. Deputy Shane Moynihan is next.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Hyland has accepted it is a UK Government requirement.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Hyland is aware that Northern Ireland is part of the UK.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Shane Moynihan is next.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Hyland and his colleagues for coming in. They are very welcome. I will pick up on the drivers issue. It was mentioned there is a deficit of 3,000 to 4,000 drivers in the sector.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of exits form the sector, how many drivers retire annually?
Mr. Paul Jackman:
I mentioned the demographics. We have a CPC card that drivers hold. There is a five-year cycle on that and we see hundreds of drivers leave the sector in Ireland every five years rather than having to go through all of the courses they would have to do. We have just gone through an exodus and we will have another exodus in 2029, which is the next end date of the five-year cycle. We all know drivers who have gotten their CPC cards and say that is their last card and they are done after that one. Again, their ages push them out.
I will make a point which is pertinent and goes back to the previous issue. If we look at the CSO statistics on unemployment, and this is replicated right across Europe, the 16 to 24 age group has the highest rate of unemployment in terms of ratio and in Ireland it is three times the unemployment rate of the groups thereafter. Compared with unemployment in the 25 to 70 age group, the youth group is unemployed at a ratio that is three times higher. Looking at the statistics across Europe, we are looking 8.2 million of our youth who are not in education, employment or training. They are called NEET statistics. In Europe the 16 to 29 year-old age bracket has 8.2 million and that issue needs political will across Europe and in this House to engage with our youth and get them back working because they are not working.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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My next question is about the training courses described by Mr. Jackman. He said they were fully booked. Will Mr. Jackman tell me about the demand for those courses? When he says they were fully booked did they have to turn people away because there were no spaces on the courses?
Mr. Paul Jackman:
Yes, the contractor I referenced earlier had two courses with two different ETBs due to start in the summer and they have been stalled, and the two courses were fully booked. There are people coming from the live register but the traineeship is open to both those who are on the live register and those who are not. Our industry is engaging with people and trying to attract them into the industry and we offer them a six-month course. They did part-time work as well so there is a form of income. There was a duality to it and people were getting work experience while doing the traineeship. It was a nice model. Some ETBs have shrunk it down to just giving the licence because they saw a demand for that. Cavan and Monaghan ETB has achieved huge figures and found a lot of people who are in employment want the extra layer of qualification of having the licence so they were doing the course part-time and that gave them access to working at night or at weekends for additional income.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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What is the total cohort size of each of the training courses?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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That is 3,000 or 4,000 people per year. What I hear from Mr. Jackman is that while we are getting people who are already active in the labour market to come on to these courses, we are not getting inactive people. There is a piece of work to be done there to persuade inactive people.
Mr. Paul Jackman:
The traineeship is largely people who are on the live register. The shorter courses are the ones that were made available due to demand. We had an open day in Cavan and Monaghan ETB and 98 people turned up, the majority of whom were in employment and wanted to have access to a course to get the licence. The traineeship is primarily for people who are on the live register.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Jackman also mentioned the labour shortage of skilled mechanics. I have heard of this issue in other sectors - the waste sector and buses in public transport. We know what happened in Dublin last week. Has Mr. Jackman spoken to other sectors about the issues they face with the shortage of HGV mechanics, in particular, and about having a concerted push to upskill them? We know there is an issue with skilling those individuals and those professionals in the economy at the moment.
Mr. Paul Jackman:
Mr. Nolan might want to come in on this. When we developed the traineeship we had a few meetings with representatives of the Irish coach association, including JJ Kavanagh, because they developed a similar traineeship based on our model and had the same problem. Being a mechanic is a quite a physical job so there is an attrition rate that is greater at the truck end of it and mechanics leave the profession earlier. Mr. Nolan or Mr. McArdle might want to address this because as their scale of business is greater than mine they might have a greater handle on that issue.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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It was mentioned that South Africa was the country from which most non-EU workers are coming from. Are there any other countries from which there is a high degree of supply of workers or is it just South Africa in the main?
Mr. Paul Jackman:
In our meetings with RSA we found some of the drivers from South African have licences from Zimbabwe and Botswana and the RSA will not accept them. It is for the RSA's own reasons, including training. The only country outside of the EU that Ireland has a bilateral agreement with is South Africa. We are getting drivers from South Africa who have already come to the EU and gone through a far simpler process elsewhere, gotten a licence in Poland and are driving in Poland and then come to Ireland. It suits hauliers because, as Mr. Hyland referenced, of the process here. During the past few days a haulier contacted us knowing we were attending at this committee and gave examples of, not only the duration, but of South African men he has living in his yard, one of them for 12 months at least. There is a truck in the yard for him but he has not finished the due process yet.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I have two very short questions as I am conscious of the time. What is the single biggest reform Mr. Hyland would like to see at the RSA? Does Mr. Hyland have any views on Stena Line's announcement yesterday that it is pulling out of the schedule in Rosslare Europort?
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
A few things happened in shipping this week. One was we had no service out of Pembroke Port last Sunday because Stena Line does not sail from Pembroke on Sundays and Irish Ferries, in order to catch up on its schedule, just dropped the schedule on the southern corridor with no notification to customers. That tells us how relaxed and freely shipping lines can make up their own schedules. It is a scheduled service, like a bus service, so there should be some acknowledgment to the Department of Transport or to the customers.
In regard to Stena Line, that is a commercial decision for it. This will cause a capacity problem with the direct ferries for sure. It will cause a problem for live animals because Stena Line is the shipping line that tends to take them. It will cause a capacity issue in that we will have to go back through the UK on the land bridge of old. If that happens - and Stena Line intends having a new service to the Liverpool route - the schedule of sailing we have now should be there and I will explain the reasons for that.
The Tánaiste and Keir Starmer met some months ago to discuss simplifying the transfer of food and the ease of going into the UK. The necessity to have a veterinary certificate for every item on a groupage load into the UK should always be eased, it should travel sealed and on one certificate. The UK side needs to be simplified as well as the one here but the vets are insisting on 14 certificates for 14 items in the one load. We must have simplified procedures agreed with the UK so that we can go back to using the land link more easily. The unit is a sealed one and it will arrive in the EU. Since it is EU product being sent to the EU, which will use the land bridge, the procedures should be simplified.
If the statements of some months ago are followed through on, this should be part of it. We should look into anything regulatory that may impact on slowing up that process because this is now crucial, as they have decided to leave the full service.
Mark Duffy (Fine Gael)
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I welcome Mr. Hyland, Mr. Nolan, Mr. Drennan, Mr. McArdle and Mr. Jackman. I am from County Mayo. I have a few questions. I acknowledge what has been raised regarding the challenges facing the association. I have spoken with hauliers over the past number of days in Mayo, who reflected to me the different challenges they face, which certainly align with what was raised here.
Tolls in Northern Ireland are totally unacceptable, considering the fact the State is supporting initiatives like the A5 in Northern Ireland. It is only fair, in the case of the mini-tariff placed on hauliers, that we either reciprocate it and use it as a rebate for our own hauliers in the Republic or, as a more constructive measure, the committee could write to the Minister for Infrastructure in Northern Ireland, who has responsibility for transport, reflecting the view of the committee that the mini-tariff should be waived. We want to work on an all-island basis, but considering the fact of the charge of more than £10 on a 40 tonne vehicle, on-the-spot fines are total overkill and do nothing to support all-island efforts in an industry that has challenges. The second point we should include in that letter, if it is agreed, is that tachographs are set up for international and continental logistics as opposed to the all-island effort. We should include those two points when we write to the Minister. Let us hope that we get a favourable response, especially considering the fact, and the point was well made, of our investment in Northern Ireland.
One point that was made to me, which has also been made here but I would like Mr. Hyland's further thoughts on it, relates to a regulator for the industry. Is that something he would welcome? Would it be specifically for fuel? He mentioned safe fares more generally, so there is clarity for the industry, and zones, similar to the way it is in the taxi industry. Is that something that would be welcome or is it being considered?
As I said, I am from County Mayo. There is frustration at times for many of the hauliers there. They feel like they are being persecuted because they do not have a motorway and the roadside stops are overkill. They are just trying to do their job and do something that is the lifeline of all of the economy. The haulage sector underpins the economy. We need to acknowledge, appreciate and support it. There needs to be strong regulation for safety measures of course, but we do not need to be overbearing in that. We need to support our drivers and the sector. We recently spoke about how the north west has one of the weakest transport infrastructure systems in the European regions. Out of approximately 230 regions, the north-west region is sixth from the bottom. On that point, we do not have adequate infrastructure or motorway infrastructure into Mayo and, on the double, we then have hauliers who are being negatively impacted because there obviously cannot be roadside stops on motorways as there are on national roads. I would welcome Mr. Hyland's thoughts on those points in particular.
Could we also write a second letter to the Minister for justice regarding visas? This is a huge issue and contact with all relevant Ministries linked into this bureaucratic difficulty and challenge that is really obstructing the growth of the sector should be considered. Something we could perhaps do is write a letter to the Minister, and relevant authorities, to make sure that we have a joined-up approach and a streamlined effort. I spoke to hauliers in the sector who have to advertise every time to demonstrate there is a need, but there needs to be an overall acknowledgement nationally that there is currently a huge demand and need. There should be more flexibility on that. Those are my points. I would welcome any thoughts from Mr. Hyland on them.
Mr. Ger Hyland:
I thank the Senator for his pertinent questions. He certainly seems to have a fairly in-depth knowledge of our sector. We would like to see an ombudsman for our sector and for issues raised with the RSA that we feel need to be investigated, or maybe have oversight on. As it stands, the RSA is judge and jury on side-of-the-road issues. We can challenge some of its findings but it takes maybe a month or more and the vehicle is lying up for that period. It is the same thing, even down to minute things. The RSA might say a tyre needs to be changed on the side of the road, if a chip has gone out of it, which could have happened ten minutes previously on the road. I am not talking about bald tyres but perfectly good tyres. A driver could have done his walk-around check in the morning when that tyre might be towards the ground, but he may not have seen the issue or it may just have happened on the road. We certainly need an ombudsman for that.
In saying that, the RSA, and we are talking about checkpoints on the side of the road, is a necessary piece in regards to the haulage sector, but we also need to have oversight of it. We talked about driver licensing. The RSA sets the test and picks the testers. It is responsible for the whole thing from start to finish, but there is no oversight on it. If a truck driver comes through his testing regime and comes out with a licence to work for any of us, we still have to train that truck driver. He does not even know how to uncouple a trailer from an articulated lorry. The first thing we have to do is take him in hand and train him. We just could not consider letting him out on the road. If he does an articulated test, he is trained in a vehicle that is somewhere between 14 and 16 or 17 tonnes. He cannot be let out on the road with a vehicle grossing 46 tonnes. It is a completely different field. I will ask Mr. Jackman to elaborate.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Just briefly. One minute.
Mr. Paul Jackman:
I will pick up on something Mr. Hyland said. I thank the Senator for his questions. As Mr. Hyland said, he is very familiar with the issues. There is a list of details of the training required for the truck driver. Coupling and uncoupling of trailers is an obligatory part of it that is not included. As Mr. Hyland said, we are getting drivers, and I am involved in the traineeship, who are just not fit for purpose. We have hauliers who then have to train drivers, as the training is so poor. What I have very much seen with the traineeship is the RSA has oversight over every component of it. If it were happening in our education system, there would be war and an outcry. The RSA picks and trains the trainers, and it trains and tests the drivers, but there is no oversight.
I have a CPC card, which we referenced. I have eight drivers. Last weekend, I asked them all specific questions about the tachograph. All of them were wrong in their answers, yet they had been trained by the RSA. If they were stopped on the road, like any of our drivers, with an infringement because of their lack of knowledge, the RSA takes them to court, but it is the RSA that is responsible for the training and it is not training them properly. The CPC course, as it stands, is an absolute nonsense. I will stand over that if I have to.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for not letting Deputy O'Hara in earlier.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their time today. I will ask about costs for hauliers. There have been recent increases in carbon taxes, excise duties and so on. Will they comment on whether their members are still seeing costs trend upwards? Has the IRHA done any analysis of the effects on its members? It was mentioned it has advocated for supports from the Government. Will they also touch on that?
Mr. Ger Hyland:
We advocated for support from the Government on the Holyhead debacle last Christmas.
We still do not have it but we are hopeful it will come. That is one thing.
Another support we have been looking for from the Government over a few years has been for the M50, which has long been paid for, to be free to the licensed hauliers of Ireland. We do not have any option other than to use the M50. We cannot go through the city. If members have delivered a load to Diageo, they are halfway down the city, but they have to turn around and come back along the M50 if they are going to Dublin Port. All that is an additional cost on our industry. The cost of our parts, such as tyres, have all increased by a minimum of 30% over the past four years. We were supposed to get a 10% whole discount on prepaid tolls, but we cannot get the toll companies to agree to give it to us. There is some low-hanging fruit that could be got for our members.
We are in the middle of preparing our budget submission for this year. We are hopeful that we will get something on a green rebate in the budget this year. It is a work in progress, but the traction is slow. We should be able to get a 10% reduction on our tolls tomorrow morning. I have a very small business and my toll bill is approximately €11,000 per month. That is the bill for a small country-based business. I do not want to bring it down to being about my business. Perhaps someone else would like to have a word; perhaps Mr. Nolan has something to say.
Mr. John Nolan:
In the by-laws, we are allowed a 10% rebate but the toll companies say they do not have to pay it for various reasons. The costs are continually going up. Parts, shipping and labour are the costs, but in our space we are precluded from increasing much, so it is a difficult space all the time.
Mr. Ger Hyland:
A driver's wages at present really are a Dutch auction. When companies advertise for a driver, a few people come. They hold an interview, select the candidate and offer the job. The drivers go back to the people they are working for to hand in their notice. A few days later, those companies will come back and make any kind of offer to keep the drivers because they know if the drivers go out the gate, the companies will not be able to replace them. Even with drivers coming from South Africa, it is taking up to 12 months to get a driver set up to come here. When they are due to come, they do not show up and the money we have invested in bringing them to Ireland is gone. We are looking at €3,000 or €4,000 per head.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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I just want to come in on the HGV levy. I will quickly read a statement by then Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Chambers.
The UK HGV road user levy was introduced in 2014, affecting all UK roads including in Northern Ireland. Prior to its introduction, the Irish Government engaged with UK authorities seeking to have Northern Ireland exempted from the charge because of the potential impact on cross-Border trade. The UK authorities ultimately decided to maintain the levy with only very minor exceptions for Northern Ireland.
An official at the Department of the environment in the North of Ireland stated that the levy was a tax and, therefore, an accepted measure under the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and a matter solely for the Westminster Parliament. People may be misinformed about this matter. Have the witnesses had any specific engagement with British officials on this issue or are they aware of the Irish Government having such engagement?
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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That statement was by then Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, so I certainly-----
Mr. David McArdle:
On that, we are all pushing for an all-Ireland economy. If the Twenty-six Counties were to impose the same on the Northern Ireland hauliers, there would be a big difference. The cry would be totally different. There is no obligation on any foreign haulier to pay anything in this country. It should be the same. We are in Ireland and we should be pushing for all-Ireland.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
On the statement the Deputy read, one bit is missing. We were led to believe - I think this might be where the misconception arose - that, while Deputy Chambers's view at the time was technically correct, there is always this juxtaposition and crossover between the Westminster Government and the power of the Northern Ireland Assembly on who has what and how it is done. It would be within the power of Northern Ireland to choose whether it collects this tax because the taxation matters of Northern Ireland are for the Northern Ireland Government, including how it collects tax. If it chooses not to collect it, then it does not have it to spend. We brought this up in light of the State of Ireland supporting roads to the tune of €700 million, yet we would then be charged £10 per day to use them. It is within the Northern Ireland Assembly's power to say it does not need to collect the levy because it is an all-Ireland policy or that it does not need to collect if from commercial businesses because of viability and quid pro quo interflow between the two nations. That is within Northern Ireland's remit.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for attending. I know the role truck drivers play and how they keep this economy going. I am slightly biased because I married a truck driver, so I also understand the down side of it. It is quite good for some marriages because we are like ships passing in the night.
On the shortages, which is a massive issue, I know some of the hauliers who have South Africans living in mobile homes on their lands because they have an issue with getting permits for them. Do the witnesses think that age is a factor, as in for the younger people who are coming up now, because of the cost of living? I know wages for truck drivers can be quite good but the hours are long. Young fellas - and some girls - are into their sports and they have to drop sport if they start driving. They might want to go travelling. Are they some of the reasons younger people are not taking it up? I have a ten-year-old, so the industry will have one more driver in eight years' time because he has told me he will definitely drive a truck. I see some younger people and their lifestyle is slightly different. With the cost of living in this country, many are leaving and going to Australia and Canada. That might play into it as well down the line.
Mr. Ger Hyland:
There is some merit in what the Senator said. However, our industry is not one size fits all. There are several different types of job in the industry. If people want to travel Europe, they can see every square inch of Europe driving for a company like the ones represented either side of me by Mr. Nolan or Mr. McArdle. If people want to stay local, within Ireland, they can work for someone like me. If people want to be home every evening at four or five o'clock, they can work for their local quarry. There are different types of driving job in the sector and there is a job to suit everyone.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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I find it is for the love of driving. It is like being a nurse or doctor - people do it for the passion. They do not do it for the hours or the pay cheque. Once people get into it, it is quite difficult to get out. As Mr. Hyland said, if people try to leave, they will be offered more money.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
I will tell a horror story of a young fella who wants to return to Ireland and work for me. We told the RSA about it recently. He did his regional truck driving test here. He got his digi-card and did his first test here and left provisionally for Australia. He spent two years in Australia working in the mines in the outback running two or three big articulated trucks into Sydney every night. He is well qualified. When he was coming home, I told him to get a reference from the centre where he did his test and get his licence because Ireland had an exchange agreement with Australia like it does with South Africa. He is an Irishman returning home and already has the first part, the digi-card.
He is now ten weeks out of work because of all the rigorous procedures put in his way. He cannot proceed with the second half of changing his licence because when he handed in his licence for exchange to the NDLS, there was no control number or record of the licence going in. He cannot do his walkaround test, which none of us had to do. It is to see if the lights, brakes or horn are working in the morning. He cannot do his CPC course. Half of the references in it are nonsense anyway. He cannot have that part of the structure done before the licence comes back from Australia. I do not know what slowed things up on the Australian side but when he gets it back next week, ten or 11 weeks later, he has to start on all the other procedures. He is one of our own who is willing to come back to work and this is what we have put in front of him. It is outrageous.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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There seems to be an awful lot of red tape involved on every side of it. I have heard lots of conversations at home about the CPC courses and how people go into a room and sit down in front of somebody who has never driven a truck.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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There is an awful lot of ticking the box when it comes to these things. I agree that an ombudsman is needed. The RSA is involved from the very start to the very end. Where is the oversight? There is oversight of some shape or form for every other Department and industry in this country. I do not see why there should not be one for this area.
I will touch on fuel and the quality of fuel. I was delighted to hear reference to it. I have been barred from a couple of places where I was getting diesel. I thought it was a myth when I was told not to get diesel from certain places, but it is true. We must keep on top of the quality of fuel as well as the cost. The cost of fuel is probably one of the highest costs for a haulage company, especially when it keeps going up.
Mr. Paul Jackman:
I will go on to speak about fuel but first I will make a point about the youth. Some 72% of young people are getting third level qualifications. It is the highest level in Europe. One day in Dungarvan, we had an open day for 616 students. A couple of hauliers helped me. We set up a stand. We were approached by 15 students, both male and female, who were all very interested in pursuing it as a career. To a person, while they got the information, they all stated the same thing: their parents wanted them to go to third level. That is an issue.
I will preface my remarks on fuel quality by saying there is possibly an illusion out there that we do not need to worry too much about fuel because we will all be electric in a couple of years. Senator Collins's laughter is the perfect response. In 2022, the EU consumed 71 billion litres of diesel. Ireland consumed 3.6 billion litres. We analysed the ETC fuel quality report to death. Without going into too much detail, there is no oversight of fuel quality in Ireland. The CCPC website states categorically - it did not know about it until we told it - that there is no State regulatory authority responsible for fuel quality in Ireland. That might have been acceptable years ago when diesel was diesel but now, to a greater extent, there are different types of biofuel and other components being added to diesel. The Department of the environment has responsibility for sending our mandatory 100 samples a year to Europe. It has handed that over to Fuels for Ireland, so an entity representing the commercial retailers is responsible for taking 100 samples, which is an absolute minimum. We do not report any non-compliance. We have zero non-compliance.
Mr. Paul Jackman:
In Belgium, they take 4,700 samples and they use doubles. On a pro rata basis, they have ten times the sampling regime that we have. It is done by a state-appointed authority, Fapetro. We have no authority here. With water works, more than 500,000 samples are taken every year. They have their own labs and they do 1.2 million tests on water every year. We send our diesel samples to the UK. There is no fuel quality oversight in Ireland and, as a consequence, there are a lot of issues.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Jackman and call Deputy Michael Collins.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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I welcome the witnesses. At the very beginning, Mr. Hyland said that this was a very important committee. However, if the hauliers are not operating properly, then this country grinds to a halt, so they are far more important than whatever we can do here. We must make sure that does not happen. It is hugely important to us that they are here today.
I listened with great interest to a radio discussion involving Mr. Hyland about verge cutting, hedge cutting and the damage done to vehicles around the country. He can elaborate on that in a moment. Not alone is damage being done, but it also pushes lorries across the white line. They have no choice in the matter. It is astonishing that the State does not have a clear understanding of the issue. I said this to the Minister last week. We hear about the danger of car crashes and people getting killed. One can only imagine where a lorry will go if it is pushed across the road. Lorry drivers cannot drive and it is costing them a fortune to drive normally, as they should do. I would like Mr. Hyland to elaborate on that. In his opinion, what strategy is needed?
I will ask a few questions and then Mr. Hyland and Mr. Drennan can answer them. What strategies could be implemented to attract new drivers into the industry? There has been a lot of discussion on that.
I am aware of the substitute arrangement for Holyhead in terms of a better sailing schedule between Ireland and the UK. As far as I can gather, it is better than the previous arrangement. I am worried about the peak time and cattle going to Britain in the spring. Am I correct in saying that the new schedule suits that? Could Mr. Hyland elaborate further? It also helps with the delivery of fresh shellfish to the UK, which is hugely important to the fishing industry in Ireland. Speeding up the crossing might bring in bigger and better business. How has the increased frequency impacted on the tourism sector? How do we ensure the schedule is maintained? Who is the relevant person? Is it the Minister who will have the final say? Is it the UK side that will have the final say?
I would welcome a response to those questions.
Mr. Ger Hyland:
I thank Deputy Collins for his comments and his insight on the industry. The first point is about hedge cutting, which I raised last week. Hedge cutting seems to be a bigger problem every year. The hedges are protruding further out across the road, especially up high. Local authorities come out some years and cut them 2 m high in a hit-and-miss way. That forces the higher foliage to lie out across the road. The average height of a mirror on our trucks is 3 m. Our trucks' bodies are 4 m plus, and 4.5 m in a lot of cases. First, we must ensure hedges are cut back to a height of at least 4 m or 4.5 m.
Second, given our vantage point from a truck, which is so much higher than a car, if the hedgerows are properly cut, then we can see out over the hedge at a corner. We can see exactly where oncoming vehicles are. At the moment, we are sitting on the edge of our seats because we do not know what is coming around the next corner. We have no idea. We are trying to watch the trees. We are trying to watch our mirrors. We are trying to watch the oncoming traffic. It is a nightmare for people driving on rural roads at present. It is adding to the stress on our drivers. It also adds to the cost of equipment and the running costs.
The Deputy should let me know if there is anything else he wants me to discuss.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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How much is a mirror?
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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Okay.
Mr. Ger Hyland:
They are all carrying information now that they never carried before. In some cases, they are able to tell how far away from the hedge you are. They are heated and can be moved from inside the vehicle. Electrification and modification have added to the cost.
Some 50% of our deaths are on rural roads. I am not saying the hedgerows are causing 50% of the deaths, but they are certainly a contributory factor. Mr. Drennan wants to say something.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
I want to respond to the questions the Deputy asked about connectivity. Senator Duffy also inquired about Mayo.
The new schedule absolutely includes Mayo. I am a west of Ireland man and always have a west of Ireland head when it comes to connectivity.
I first draw the Deputy's attention to the old schedule. We circulated this to the committee this morning. There are eight different sailings between Dublin and Holyhead, which we were talking about. If the Deputy looks at them in detail, however, there are only four actual timelines. They leave at the same time and arrive at the same time, whereas the current one we have circulated has 13 different timelines. That in itself hops off the page as regards better connectivity, a broader spectrum and better service to Ireland. In these newer schedules, we hear from the ferry lines that wish to go back to the old times. It is an in-house commercial decision by them. Let it be. The new schedules may be tweaked slightly if operators have concerns, but they should not be changed completely. If it is not broken, do not throw it out. It is working so well due to the reasons I have just stated. It is self-explanatory.
On the tourism side, to help tourism here - a person can leave anywhere in middle England get a comfortable sailing to Ireland from Holyhead at 9.30 a.m. or 10.45 a.m. If a person leaves Birmingham, Leicester, Northamptonshire, Coventry or anywhere along that line or up to Manchester or Liverpool and head for Holyhead, he or she will make these sailings at comfortable times. The ferry arrives in Dublin at 12.55 p.m. and 1.05 p.m. If a person is heading for west Mayo, he or she will arrive by 5 p.m. or 6 p.m. It is a daylight journey for families or people returning. It gives a much broader spectrum to people and a lot of choice. Of course, tourism is included in that.
For us, the cattle kill - the same goes for shellfish people - in the autumn, whether delivering to or transiting through the UK, the fishermen go by time of tide, not by time of day. The service line has to back up that time schedule. It is important to have a differentiation in time, not like the old schedule when they were all on top of each other with just four choices. Then the fishermen must get the fish to market in time. Even for us in the industry, we can set a time plan that is more suitable and more aligned with the schedules. One thing we must be sure to not let happen - no matter by what criteria, how we level it or what standard these things are looked at - is a repeat of what happened last Christmas. In any evaluation, the ferry lines, the haulage companies and particularly the customers in Ireland and the UK cannot have this happen again. They are saying the second ramp is now up and running in Holyhead. That will only help to enhance these timelines.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming this morning. It is great to see them. I thank them for the opening statement, it was really helpful and gave a good overview faced by the IRHA and its members.
I want to follow up on a couple of things. I was listening to what was said with regard to the tolls rebate. Hauliers are supposed to get a 10% tolls rebate. That is there because we want to encourage hauliers onto motorways to make sure they are using the bigger roads in order to keep our roads moving and keep us all safe. We need that rebate system to actually work and to reach hauliers. What is the Department's reaction when the IRHA highlights this issue?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Has the IRHA followed up with the toll operators and engaged in legal correspondence with them?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What would the IRHA like to see happen in terms of making sure hauliers get those rebates?
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
To enhance that, the companies go back to the old system of obtaining the discount, which is in the form of a coupon or book type of thing they issue. The haulier must go to the office to get it. The operators want hauliers to pay before they cross the toll and the hauliers must get a truck or registration-specific discount. It cannot be granted to a company and given out to whoever is crossing. It is quite old and cumbersome. It is given out under a caveat. We all have tags on our vehicles and the operators are paid before the hauliers actually cross the toll.
The system does not take cognisance of it. As there is a part of the contract that states the rebate must be done by token, operators think they have an out. If they had a collective case against hauliers, they would crush us. We need TII to step up and get the interpretation that they are paid before we cross and that we should have our discount.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That seems a very cumbersome process considering everything is done by a tag and is electronically recorded every time a haulier goes through the toll. There are probably different end points for the contracts with the different toll operators in terms updating that clause within the contract. Would that be the case?
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
That is the way it is interpreted at the moment. Within that contract is a 10% rebate entitlement for users with a regular, quantitative volume. The operators have not given us that 10% for more than 15 years. They have kept a substantial amount of money from us and made the costs higher.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I hear what Mr. Drennan is saying. I will definitely follow up and put in a few questions to the Minister and with TII.
I heard Deputy Collins discussing hedges earlier. Are some local authorities better than others? Is that Mr. Hyland's experience? Is there a consistency across the country, or are there real challenges in particular areas?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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And that it is the wrong time of year.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Have the members of the IRHA followed up individually with their local authorities to put pressure on them?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What would the IRHA like to see from this committee in terms of that piece of work?
Mr. Ger Hyland:
Is it time we looked at some sort of an incentive for landowners to keep their roadside hedges cut in order that we can see over them at corners? There could be some incentive there. There is legislation in place that states landowners are responsible for their hedges but there is no enforcement on it. A view many of our members and I have is that there has been more enforcement on people cutting hedges in recent years than people who have not. That is a damning indictment of the local authorities but that is the way it is. There have been more prosecutions in recent years for people who cut their hedgerows in midsummer than people who have not.
Mr. Paul Jackman:
We met the agricultural contractors' association, which was lobbying to get additional funds from the Department of the environment to the local authorities to let them do four runs. The funding available to local authorities is for two runs, as Mr. Hyland referred to earlier, for 2 m cuts. This suits pedestrians, but hauliers are forced out onto the wrong side of the road. It is about doing an extra run. At minimum, three should be done. Four runs would make it efficient for the double run of the tractor. That is what we are looking for. It would be expensive. Heavier growth would be encountered in the first year, but thereafter it would be a continuum of what we are at.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Is that in the IRHA's pre-budget submission?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I only have a small amount of time left. I briefly wanted to touch on fuel quality. I noted the comments in the IRHA's statement. What model of oversight would the IRHA recommend in terms of fuel quality?
Mr. Paul Jackman:
It came up earlier.
What we are looking for is an independent authority that is responsible for fuel quality. On fuel quality, we are looking at the emissions level of vehicles. The fleet is predominantly Euro 6, and Euro 7 is coming, so the higher the emission level, the more sensitive the vehicle is because of the fuel injection system and the pressure at which it operates. Therefore, as we are going up in our emissions, the fuel quality is going down for reasons of the mandate in the climate Bill, Fit for 55, etc., but there is no oversight of what those components are.
There was a report done by Byrne Ó Cléirigh consultants for the National Oil Reserves Agency, NORA, and the Department of Transport. The report states that the application of tallow animal fat to biofuel in Ireland is four and a half times the EU average, and UCO, which is used cooking oil, is three times the EU average. We are dependent on animal fats at a level no other state in Europe is, and that is the most compromising component in our diesel. It might be meeting regulation, but there is no oversight of that aspect. We had samples taken, and the results showed up to 26% non-fossil fuel. We used three separate labs. We have warranty issues where the manufacturers refused to stand over the warranty for two vehicles. Once there was a fuel issue, they checked the fuel quality and the fuel failed. It did not comply with EN 590. They said the warranty was based on fuel of a certain quality and they refused to cover the vehicles' warranty claim. It is an issue for all vehicle users, including cars.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I will allow Deputy Moynihan back in again and, indeed, any other members who wish to come back. We have an hour left, although we may not need it.
From listening as Chair and engaging with the witnesses privately - I have met Mr. Hyland and Mr. Drennan in particular - there is so much to be concerned about and so many different challenges I have heard about today. Perhaps the greatest challenge is the driver shortage and skills shortage. I do not think people who are listening in are aware, or it may be addressed in reports that might emerge from this meeting. Deputy Collins is right. On the one hand, road haulage is important to the domestic and international trade economy. Unless some of these challenges are addressed, the economy is going to grind to a halt. We will have the HGVs, but we will not have the drivers.
There are other challenges that I will discuss: increasing costs; the issue of tolls; hedgerows; and so much more. In much of my intervention towards the end, I will focus on the HGV driver shortage and maybe dig a bit deeper into that. First, I want to discuss the Port of Holyhead and the retention of the current sailing schedules. It is my understanding that it was following the partial reopening of the port in January that this schedule was put in place. Is that correct?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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There is a single ramp in operation. It is my understanding that the other ramp was due to open in July. Is that correct?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Is the fear that, when the other ramp reopens, we are going to go back to the original pre-January timetable? Has Mr. Drennan intelligence to suggest that? Where is the concern coming from?
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
The shipping companies have announced that they are going to change back to the old schedules, and they are citing the second ramp. Particularly for us in Ireland, the issue is that the build of those ramps is out into the sea. Heretofore, in the old shipping lines coming in, it went into safe harbour. It went further into the harbour. They have extended out now and put the ramps not quite out of the harbour area, but towards the edge of it. They are more prone to getting big bangs during big swells, high tides and storms. It is a kind of trellis structure, for those who may not have been through Holyhead. It is nothing like the sea wall that was here coming into Dublin Port or particularly in Dún Laoghaire of old and the old sea walls at any of the piers around the country. It is now this trellis structure out into the sea. Those who have put in this repair have now got into maintenance. The structure has sort of legs on the main wall with a gantry in between for the dockers to move between ships and whatever. However, by keeping the newer schedule, we have a spare ramp. In changing the direct service line, Stena Line is going to improve the structure at Fishguard. It will have a better multifunctional ramp. The same should be in Holyhead. That spare ramp should be multifunctional so that if ever we get hit in Pembroke, Liverpool or Fishguard with storms, the second ramp will be up. The trials should be done so that any shipping in the Irish Sea can go on that ramp so that we are never in that position again.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Is it a commercial decision, though? Can the Government intervene?
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
It is a commercial decision for the shipping companies to change schedules to a degree, but they should not revert back to this really contracted, restricted, whole-time schedule. The schedules have been gone into. We will forward to the committee the information to back up all of this. The new schedule is working so well. It is a lot safer and a lot better for the environment in Dublin and in Holyhead. If we look at the timetables under the new schedule, all the big ferries have left Dublin by 8.30 a.m. or the like, so all the trucks are in the port by 7 a.m. or 7.30 a.m. There is no congestion here. They are flowing for a single ferry at different times, so the flow runs great.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Have the ferry companies announced it? They have already announced-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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It will be once the second ramp is ready. When will that be?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Drennan is calling for the Government at the highest level to intervene and engage with the ferry companies-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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-----on terms of maintaining the existing schedule and keeping the second ramp-----
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
Keeping it free, because of two things, one of which Deputy Collins raised and I have yet to give him an answer on. Who has the say? It is very difficult to know who has the say but surely Irish and British Governments, which license ferries in and out of their ports, should have some say. We have lobbied everybody and I have been on two Zoom calls already with the Cardiff Government. It sort of says similar to what is being said in Ireland and what the shipping companies are saying, in that it is a commercial decision. A commercial decision may be to change the timetable, but something similar to the schedule should be maintained for all the reasons I have said and for the supply chain to here. There are two things in our reasoning here, one of which is that we have definite commitments to give to customers in Britain and onward to the Continent, so we need that commitment.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I agree. My time is limited, so I want to move on to the next question. We covered a lot about hedge cutting. I want to talk about the double DOE, if that is the right term. For the benefit of anyone watching, there are different types of trailer, such as flat trailer, curtainsider and so on. Every trailer, irrespective of the type, has a first date of registration. It may be off the road for six months or 12 months, and a person must bring it to a DOE testing centre, like I did many years ago in a previous employment. One might go to Surehaul, get it tested and get a valid 12-month certificate. Am I right in saying that for that 12-month certificate, if the trailer is off the road for six months and a person gets it tested, the date of test is linked to the date of registration?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Hyland might just explain that.
Mr. Ger Hyland:
To give a quick overview of that, nearly every haulier in this room has a truck or two trucks parked up in his yard, especially now with the majority of hauliers so short of drivers. I have a truck parked up in the yard that was registered on 1 March three years ago. I now have a driver for that truck. The MOT or CVRT ran out on that truck on 1 March this year. I present that truck to my local test centre, which gives me a six-month certificate for that truck because the previous test certificate ran out on 1 March. I am looking for a test certificate for a year from the date of the test. If I present my truck today for testing, which should have been tested on 1 March but was not because it was not on the road, I get a six-month certificate, but if I drive around the building and retest it again, I can get a 12-month certificate, but I pay for two tests.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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What is the cost of a test?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry; I mentioned trailers. Of course, I mentioned vehicles as well. Does it apply to trailers also?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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It is just another layer of cost on top of all that other additional cost.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Hyland mentioned this previously, but does he want to speak a small bit about the consistency across test centres?
Mr. Ger Hyland:
There is an issue of consistency between test centres. Depending on the tester, some will fail because of rust.
More of them will be down on tyres. There are no tools of the trade handed out to the test centres from the RSA. There is no consistency of tools. As well as that, some testers are more down on rust, etc., than other testers.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
A big inconsistency we have also seen is on the tolerances of bearings and the tolerances of torsion bars and linkages. Quite a number of vehicles, although of the same make, have different torques and different settings. Some of the test centres are not up to speed on what applies to the individual vehicles before them and if they do not have the manual they revert to the standard procedure, but it does not apply to that vehicle. We see inconsistencies there frequently.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I have a few more questions but I will let Deputy Currie in.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I very much welcome the Irish Road Haulage Association here today. I appreciate their opening statement, which was very thorough.
When I read their opening statement, it brought home to me the challenges that they is facing, that they are at the coalface of a changing and turbulent world, that they have such a pivotal role in the unsustainable global supply chains that are impacting households on a daily basis and that they are certainly doing their best to maintain those supply chains even though they are facing a skills shortage and they do not seem to have stability in sight when it comes to that. Obviously, the geopolitical circumstances that we are already seeing are affecting trade. There is the fuel pricing and then, of course, the demands to innovate and decarbonise in the transport sector, all of which are important and we cannot hold back on. I fully recognise now, from their opening statement, just how challenging their work is.
My main interest is the all-island economy. I read what they said about the additional fees that they face. Are there any fees in reverse? They say that there are fees that they face by travelling north and if they do not pay those that they could get a fine and that there is not a reciprocal fee coming south, but are there other fees that drivers face in the North coming south that they do not mention here?
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It was the HGV levy. What other barriers need to be on our agenda to support the all-island economy?
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
Perhaps there should be a look at a lightening of EU rules in the port of Derry for servicing Donegal and Greenore Port for servicing south Armagh and its natural hinterland. The drawing of the Border originally did not take into account the need for a supply chain to those parts, having to import goods that are recognised for centuries into Derry and having to clear them just to pop over to Donegal. The Windsor agreement did not encompass that. To a degree, it was at a different time. There was heated debate but now, in the simplifying of rules and regulations that have been announced, perhaps there is some way of encompassing that if it is accepted in Derry or there is some clarification, it is also accepted in Donegal, and if it is accepted in Greenore, it is good for Armagh.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Okay. So the witnesses still are seeing the repercussions of Brexit.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
Yes. Brexit has cost us a lot. We have paid. This island nation has paid. Northern Ireland and England left, but we have paid.
As an aside, I would like to recall the Deputy's late father. I drank the finest porter ever poured with him one night in Lisdoonvarna 35 years ago, when he called.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I did not think he liked port.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Was it porter or port?
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It was porter. Okay, that makes sense.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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We will stick to the matters at hand, please.
Mr. Paul Jackman:
I thank Deputy Currie for the question. Something that is in the opening statement, if the Deputy remembers, is the G2, the new tachograph. All trucks have a tachograph fitted. It controls the driving and rest times. The UK is still in alignment with the EU requirement for that, but there is a requirement for trucks doing international work to have this new tacho fitted, which is €1,500 to €2,000. We have had several meetings with DG MOVE, which is the regulatory authority in Brussels. They are happy with trucks transiting the North, going from Dublin to Donegal and vice versa, which is part of what we do, not to have the requirement but the UK is not reciprocal in accepting it as well. It is creating an international transport requirement qualification on many hauliers in Ireland. Most hauliers have reason to go to the North at some stage or may have, and they have to register as international hauliers as a consequence even though they never leave the island. This has brought the G2V2 requirement onto their fleet. While that is there and it is in law, we argued for the transit circumstance. DG MOVE in the EU agreed that if the UK is happy with that, DG MOVE will iron-clad it. That will remove the obligation on those that do not load or unload in Northern Ireland but that transit it within their work in their republican work. That is a caveat. It is available to us but we are not getting the support from the UK authorities on that.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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How many of the association's drivers would be island based versus going the land bridge direction, or do they all cover everything?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I will let the Vice-Chair, Deputy Moynihan, back in again for three or four minutes. The Deputy will be followed by Deputy Butterly.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Hopefully, I will not take the full allocation of time. I asked a question earlier and we did not get to the answer. I asked what was the single most high priority reform for the RSA that the IRHA would like to see.
Mr. Ger Hyland:
On that note, I will expand briefly, if the Deputy does not mind. We need to get into the transition year, TY, in schools to educate the TY students. Every TY student coming out, as a minimum, should have passed the theory test. It should be on the curriculum for the TY students that they do the driver theory test.
It would be good to bring a simulator in to TY students and show them exactly what safe driving is about, what driving is about and educate them there as regards speeds, the consequences of accidents, etc. That would be a good initiative for TY students.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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That is a very fair point.
Mr. Paul Jackman:
Earlier we spoke about our issue with the RSA appointing trainers, being over the training, appointing the testers and being over the testing in every faculty, so that is the CPC, the driver training and youth training. The RSA is on every aspect, so there is no internal audit system. We have found that the truck drivers who land in our yards carrying a shiny licence that has been issued by the State are actually not fit for purpose and we have to train them in the use of modern transport. We must train them how to use the modern equipment that we use because the equipment, training methods and CPC are outdated. When truck drivers come to us, they are not in tune with the transport world as it currently exists. To see so many elements under the one umbrella of the RSA means there are no checks and internal balances.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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It is probably the only aspect of the education and training system in Ireland where there is not external balance like QQI, ETBs, etc. Some of my constituents have raised issues about planning permission for logistics yards, which is where they leave trucks. Have members of the association raised the same issue with the association? Are people experiencing difficulties with getting planning permission for logistics yards or truck yards?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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For sure it is.
Mr. John Nolan:
What happened in Dublin with Brexit is that all the yards that were used in the greater Dublin Port were all consumed by the State authorities or customs and all the hauliers were put out. The hauliers are all anything from 20 km to 50 km from Dublin Port and getting planning for a logistics yard is extremely difficult.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for their time.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I am not a member of the transport committee but when I heard the witnesses would be in this morning, I could not pass up the opportunity. I thank the Chair for allowing me to speak at the end.
I am going to get the witnesses to rehash some of the points that were probably raised this morning. What are the three top issue in terms of costs and barriers in their industry? I have a little but not much knowledge about the haulage industry. I imagine that the industry will be facing huge challenges for anything that is intercontinental.
Yesterday we heard great news about the Slane bypass, but that causes me a lot of concern because Ardee still awaits its bypass. As a child I would walk through Ardee with my grandfather and he would say Ardee needs a bypass. That was not today or yesterday. To my mind, we will have the Slane bypass and this will exacerbate traffic problems in and around Ardee. I would like to hear the views of the witnesses on that.
I am fascinated by the transition year programme suggested by Mr. Hyland. He is absolutely right. My son is about to go into transition year and I believe his school will give him some sort of battery-operated vehicle to drive around a basketball court, which will be his introduction to driving. Thankfully, I live on a farm so he is well used to driving around the fields and so will have a little bit of a head start on others. It does me concern me when young people are going out driving for the first time that they have no real knowledge of the roads and driving. That ties in to what was said about drivers coming into the haulage business and not being well enough equipped. Lorries are very big and expensive and could cause serious damage in any impact, and the industry is bearing the cost of that, if I am right. Will the witnesses give me an estimate of what that cost would actually be?
Mr. Paul Jackman:
We had one haulier who was very engaged with the traineeship in Leitrim. He had three trainees who spent their time with him and, as they got qualified, he put them in vehicles. His experiences with the three drivers meant he could not keep them because of the damage they did and their inability to drive, even though they arrived with a State-given shiny licence. This was replicated and it has damaged the perception of the traineeship. It is primarily because of the standard, but in many cases the vehicle itself bears no relationship to the modern one. I will caveat that by saying that we have spent six years working in Europe. There is a new licence directive on its way and all the equipment that is being used is being upgraded and the training standards or requirements are being upgraded as well to try to make them more relevant.
To go back to the Deputy's point, the young people of today, and I see it with my own son, their engagement with the real world and the mechanical world is much reduced from what I remember doing because we did not have the digital playground. As Mr. Hyland said, the simulators are fantastic but they need they need to be put out in some real-life engagement with the mechanics of a vehicle and the dynamics of driving it in a controlled environment because they do not have that, as the Deputy said, although her son has an advantage over others because of living on a farm.
This man I referred to put the cost of damage that was done to his equipment at between €15,000 and €18,000. He pulled back from the traineeship and it was because of the calibre of the students and the training. The training to learn to drive just was not good enough for the workplace.
Mr. Ger Hyland:
I will take up what the Deputy said about trees and hedges. A lot of us here use high-sided vehicles which have all been damaged. It costs close to €80,000 to bring in a new refrigerated unit from Europe and the first run down the road, unless the driver is out over the white line on a lot of regional roads, he will come back with damage to the roof of that fridge. That is why we are calling for trees to be cut back at least 4 m high if not 4.5 m.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
I welcome the Deputy and I thank her for calling in. She has more of an idea from her previous life of international and truck haulage than most people in the House, I would say, and understands the problem of international haulage. I have been talking about Holyhead and connectivity, especially in the light of the recent withdrawal of a service by Stena Line, which I am sure is of interest to the Deputy and her constituency. Unless we retain connectivity through the land bridge and simplify the procedures, which I have gone into here and that will be on record, then we are in trouble at different times of the year. We need the connectivity and the streamlining, as it exists, through that and onward to Italy. It is a long road to Italy and down to the toe of Italy if we have fresh produce or even short-dated produce. As I have said in one of my statements, there is no point in Enterprise Ireland selling farming and telling international industries all the reasons they should come to Ireland if we cannot maintain the supply chain to them and get the product out. We are going to be second grade very fast.
As regards the Ardee bypass and Slane, it is the nature of things in Ireland that things move step by step. It is a painful experience going through it all. We seem to create the problem before we solve it. I think Ardee will have a bit of a problem for a while but I am sure the Deputy will be vocal enough and apply pressure. We definitely need the bypass.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I have some final questions. Am I correct that the CPC is five modules over five years?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Has the CPC course remained the same? When was the CPC course introduced?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Do you see merit in the course?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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What conversations have you had? You have met representatives of the RSA both this year and last year. What views have you expressed and what was the answer you got?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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You had a one-to-one meeting with them in July 2024?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Have you requested a one-to-one meeting to discuss the many issues-----
Mr. Paul Jackman:
I will come in on the CPC. What we are looking for, which is possible within the directive and Belgium and Holland have applied it, is to create modules that are specific to the industry. For example, Belgium has 28 accepted modules that have certificates that drivers can do, like first-aid, eco-driving, advanced driving, crane operations and so on. Drivers can do that as their CPC. It is giving value to the operator and value to the driver, but the RSA has thus far refused to accept that.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Without overstepping the mark as Chair, there is merit in having a joint committee hearing with the IRHA and the RSA on what we have heard today. We all want the same outcome. We want to encourage more drivers. We want to make the sector viable.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
It has never acknowledged the knowledge and experience of the driver. These are people who have been driving long before this test came in. Anybody who is over 60 has done about ten of them already in their life. None of that is in the criteria. They should not have to do that if they have a certain number done.
In the case of my young Irishman coming home, he is changing a licence with an acknowledged exchange country of Ireland, yet the RSA will not allow him to go on the road without doing this silly test. If it allowed that to be done while the process was under way, that is fair enough, or allowed it after he came, but it should acknowledge he has a certificate of driving from an accepted body. All of the criteria are being met by the other country. Why is this top-up and hold-up coming in? There are anomalies. No credibility is given for the experience of the people doing it or the fact they have done these tests and were credible drivers long before this ever came in.
Mr. David McArdle:
To add to that, let us say a driver has a licence and practised for two or three years, then went into an office or left the country, the same as Mr. Drennan's man. If he attempts to return to driving, he has to do five CPCs before he is even allowed to use his driving licence again. If he has experience, he should be able to do the first one, start his job, do his course and keep rotating it after that. It is not fit for purpose.
Mr. Paul Jackman:
We are all driving modern cars that have lane assist and trucks that have emergency braking assist and electronic stability control. The new trucks now have GSR, which is a safety package within the cabin. The mobility package has been passed in Europe and affects tachograph rules. None of that is in our CPC, so the CPC is always behind where the industry is. The RSA, having failed in that regard, has the authority to fine and bring to court a driver on the road who, out of a lack of knowledge, may have an infringement on his tachograph.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I think there is merit in bringing in the RSA and the IRHA.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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That is for another day.
Mr. Ger Hyland:
Our members and drivers have gone on CPC courses. The content of those courses has been so poor that we have sat there and never opened a book all day long. We sat there for seven or eight hours and the book was never opened. One person is telling a bigger and better story than the other. That is basically what it is. This is why some of our drivers are saying that sooner than sit through five years of that nonsense again, they are leaving the industry. That is what is happening.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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My time is limited so I want to focus my final intervention.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I have been of that view for some time. We need to bring it to a head.
Regarding the work permit and the licence exchange process, there are nine different steps. To assist me in preparing a number of parliamentary questions that I might ask of the Minister, I have some questions to ask about the detail of those nine steps.
In advance of that, I have one other question. You invest and put the time into the nine steps, you get the necessary authorisation to bring in a driver from South Africa and he is driving for you. Along the way through the nine steps, it costs you €3,000, €4,000 or €5,000. Is he obliged to stay with you for one year or can he move within six months? For example, if John Nolan invests in a South African driver, goes through the nine steps and spends that amount of money, can that driver be poached by Ger Hyland within six months?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I presume that can happen.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I have a few questions. I presume all of the witnesses are familiar with the different steps for these permits and driver exchange. In terms of getting a work permit, I presume this is only with a country with which we have a licence exchange agreement. South Africa is probably the only other one, and Georgia was mentioned as well. Is there the potential to add any other country to that list?
Mr. John Nolan:
The one on the list that jumps out is Australia. This goes back to Mr. Drennan's problem. The people in Australia who are going to come back to Ireland are the young Irish coming back from Australia, but he ends up with the difficulty of the Irish people coming back to Ireland with the Australian licence.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Is Australia part of that exchange agreement?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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There is also Georgia. Did somebody mention Moldova as a potential add-on?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I want to go through all of the steps. Step two is a Department of Social Protection requirement, which is the labour market test. It is my understanding that hauliers have to advertise the role on two sites for 28 days at a cost of €1,000. There was some suggestion that one site would be fine and that there is no need for two sites.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Is it two sites at €500 each, which comes to €1,000? That is notwithstanding the time delay. For my own benefit, what are the two sites?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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One site is fine.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Yes. Does there need to be a labour market test in the first place? That is a fair point. At the moment, there is a request to advertise on two sites at a cost of €1,000.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The next step is probably the one that takes the most time and it can take up to four months. That is through the portal. The haulier engages with a South African driver who has a number of actions to take through the portal. Do the hauliers have access to the portal to see if he has taken those steps in a timely manner?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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It is not that you have access to the portal yourself.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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It had to do with the issuing of photographs and that kind of technical issue.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Is that ironed out now?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The driver gets the permit and the haulier then has to apply to the Department of Justice for a visa.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Another €1,000 and, again, it takes four to five months. You cannot apply for the permit and the visa at the same time.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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That is €1,000 for the visa. What is the permit?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Is there a cost for that? Is it €1,000 again? Does anyone know?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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He gets the permit. He gets the visa. He cannot get the visa until he gets the permit. Then he has to apply for a PPS number to Revenue. Can he apply for the PPS number when he is actually here in Ireland?
Mr. David McArdle:
He has to be here to apply for it, but when he gets the visa he can then apply to the NDLS for his licence and it then has to go through the checks. However, we have knowledge that there is currently an issue with the NDLS. There is a backup or hold-up, or somebody is blocking the path, but the service is still taking the €1,000 from you for the visa even though it has a fair idea you will not get your licence within the six months after which letter you have to provide to it will no longer be valid.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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So, the individual gets the permit, then gets the visa and then gets the PPS number. Does he not have to get a residency card then?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I might work with the IRHA directly to obtain any additional information I want before I table the parliamentary questions.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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If he goes through all of those steps and is working for Mr. Drennan for two months-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I can see it is dog eat dog. If someone else gives a driver an offer or he gets friendly with another driver, working for somebody else, who says over a cup of coffee that he is getting €100 more per week, before you know it that is the start of it.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Just as I am about to wrap up the meeting, in walks the great Senator Clifford-Lee. Does she want a couple of minutes to ask questions?
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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I have been following the proceedings in my office. I thank the delegates for attending and for their presentation on this very important issue. I do not have any specific questions because they have already been covered. I look forward to ongoing engagement with the members of the haulage industry because it is a very important one. We saw during the Covid pandemic how important it is to this country.
Mr. Paul Jackman:
We have asked our contacts in Brussels, who represent various national transport associations, questions. Interestingly, Germany, Belgium and Holland have confirmed that they get the foreign driver to go to their closest embassy. The licence is processed by the embassy. The validation process is entered into by the foreign driver before he even leaves the country, and that expedites the process considerably.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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It would be really good to follow up on the driver shortage, the skills shortage. If there are improvements regarding the pathways, could they be sent to us? They might prompt us, as members, to submit parliamentary questions to help with our engagement with the Minister next time he is in the committee room. There is strong merit in having a committee meeting with officials from the RSA and the IRHA in the same room.
Mr. John Nolan:
I have a final comment. Some speakers asked what they can do to help the industry. We have a fuel rebate but propose in our budget a green fuel rebate. It helps the industry. It will be said that people are not claiming the rebate, but that is for their own reasons. However, most people who are serious about this business need the money.
Someone else asked how to get new people into the industry. Maybe there could be some form of tax credit scheme for people who want to be a truck driver or mechanic. I refer to both the people driving and the people working with them.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Do the delegates intend to have a pre-budget submission?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Do they tend to launch such documents in the surroundings of Leinster House? What is the plan?
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
It has to go to the Minister for Finance, but a copy will be given to every Member of the Houses at the same time. We are in the process. There is quite a lot to be qualified and quantified through experts in excise and duty, and also in respect of caveats regarding to other nations, having regard to the minimum in Europe and how we fit into this whole bracket.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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There is an opportunity to launch the pre-budget submission in the audiovisual room of Leinster House at the invitation of a Member, for example. Yesterday, today and tomorrow will have seen so many pre-budget submissions launched in Buswells by so many organisations. I make no secret of the fact that I am a big fan of the IRHA and the work it does. The IRHA should have a think about this.
I thank the delegates for attending and for the work they do. Between the five of them, notwithstanding that they are all members of the IRHA, they employ many people. How many?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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We are close to a thousand.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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We are at 1,300 approximately.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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There you go. The numbers show the importance of the IRHA.
I thank Mr. Hyland and his colleagues for assisting the committee on this important matter.