Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies have been received from Deputies Aisling Dempsey and Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh. I ask anyone attending remotely to mute themselves when not contributing so that we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind those in attendance to ensure that their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.

Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. As they are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, members are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that members comply with any such direction. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official of the Houses, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The Select Committee on Education and Youth is meeting for the first time today to consider the Revised Estimates Volume, Vote 26, with the Minister for Education and Youth. The Estimates process is Dáil Éireann's method to allow the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation to seek to withdraw funds from the Exchequer to meet most Government Departments’ spending obligations. Articles 17.1.1° and 28.4.4° of the Constitution provide for the presentation to and consideration of Estimates by Dáil Éireann respectively. Standing Order 217 requires Estimates to be considered in committee. It is a well established practice that they are referred to the relevant sectoral select committee. Once hearings conclude, committees send a message to Dáil Éireann, which generally approves Estimates without debate. Committees cannot amend Estimates and have no formal role in approving them. However, Standing Order 223 provides that committees may make a report to the Dáil in respect of their consideration of Estimates. The Revised Estimates Volume for public services, REV, provides considerably more detail at subhead level, as well as performance metrics. The Revised Estimates, or the revised final proposed spending for the end of the year, form the basis of parliamentary scrutiny of allocated expenditure.

I welcome the Minister for Education and Youth, Deputy Helen McEntee, to the committee. Some of her officials were here very late last night and they are all welcome back, as well as the other officials who have joined the Minister. I thank the Minister's colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Moynihan. We were here until a late hour last night, going through many issues, and it was a worthwhile meeting. I thank those who stayed late last night, including the secretariat and the technical team.

I will allow the Minister time to make her opening statement and, thereafter, we will take questions from members. For the benefit of members, because it is a select committee, the modus operandi of a rotational order is not happening today. I propose eight minutes of speaking time per member and perhaps they can come in for a second round of four minutes. It will be on a lámha suas basis after the Minister has concluded her speech.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to speak today and for the committee’s consideration of my Department’s Estimates allocation for 2025. I am accompanied today by my officials and I thank them for attending.

These Estimates set out the allocations for the Department of Education and Youth under Vote 26. This includes funding for all of the services normally provided by my Department, along with the responsibility for certain youth-related services that, as colleagues will know, transferred to this Vote just one month ago. Allocations are also included to fund measures to address some of the impacts on the education sector’s response to the Ukraine crisis. A significant capital allocation is also included.

The Revised Estimate for Vote 26 provides for a net allocation of €11.799 billion. This is a gross allocation of €12.232 billion reduced by appropriations-in-aid of some €433 million. The gross allocation has increased by €1.4 billion on the original 2024 allocations. Of this increase, some €422 million relates to increases in public sector pay and pension rates. My Department overall is allocated some €9.2 billion on pay and pensions. This represents some 75% of the expenditure allocation. Over 110,000 public servants and 49,000 public service pensioners are paid out of these funds. Other significant expenditure areas include capital infrastructure for school buildings, school transport, capitation grants to schools and grants to other organisations and agencies.

In budget 2025, a significant allocation was secured for primary, post-primary and special needs education for the 2025-26 school year, along with funding for youth education-related services. This included important measures, such as: the expansion of the provision of free schoolbooks and classroom resources to all pupils to now include senior cycle and transition year pupils at post-primary level, and all will be included for this September; securing further increases in the capitation funding available for the day-to-day running costs of our schools; continued investment in school transport; an additional 2,368 SNA and special educational teachers in classrooms, and the continued provision of the enhanced summer programme; provision for actions to assist teacher supply and middle management supports in schools; funding for mobile phone storage solutions so students get a mental break from their phones during the school day; an increase in capital funding to allow for the continued delivery of the school building programme and to progress over 300 school building projects that are currently under construction, with the majority due to be completed during 2025 and 2026; and increased investment for youth services projects by over 9% to €90 million to support young people to develop the necessary skills and competencies to reach their full potential.

The budget also provides important additional funding for curricular and assessment reforms to progress our plans for senior cycle redevelopment and the primary curriculum framework, which are rooted in the delivery of a modern, inclusive education system that puts the student at the centre of the learning process. Through reform of our curriculum, I want to ensure we can fully equip students with the skills and competencies they need to succeed in what is a rapidly changing world.

The expansion of the provision of free schoolbooks and classroom resources to all pupils in schools under the free education scheme for the upcoming school year of 2025-26 will benefit almost 950,000 pupils. This is an important further step in providing support to households in meeting cost-of-living pressures.

Extra funding is also being provided to primary and post-primary schools to deal with the challenges they face in meeting day-to-day running costs. A total of €30 million in full-year costs is being provided for a permanent restoration of funding for the running costs of schools, bringing the basic rate of capitation to €224 per student in primary schools and to €386 in post-primary schools. Over the last two budgets, this has resulted in a 22% increase in the level of capitation rates paid to schools and, of course, we want to do more.

The 2025 funding allocation makes the biggest-ever commitment to students with special educational needs and their families. We are building on the progress already made on additional classes, teachers and supports, with an additional 768 special education teachers and 1,600 SNAs to support children across the mainstream, special classes and special schools. This brings the total number of SNAs working in our schools to 23,000, which is the highest ever number allocated to our education system, and it will be slightly higher by the end of the year. This is in recognition of the support needs of children across all settings. In total, there will be over 44,000 dedicated staff to support children with special educational needs in our schools.

The Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, and I have secured Government agreement to establish the education therapy service. Funding is being provided and the National Council for Special Education will commence work with an aim to provide 90 therapists to work in up to 45 special schools in the next school year. I am proud that we are allocating such significant investment in our education system, which allows us to reduce costs for families, tackle disadvantage and support the achievement and needs of all our students.

There is ring-fenced funding of €141 million allocated in 2025 to meet the costs of the education sector’s response to the crisis in Ukraine. This provides for the cost of additional teachers and other supports across the education sector. Our continued response to the Ukrainian crisis will mainly be based on the number of additional pupils who have entered our education system in the last three years, currently at some 17,500 pupils, and the number that will enter and remain in the system during the course of 2025.

Cost-of-living funding of €120 million was agreed as part of budget 2025. This was paid out in advance in late 2024 and, therefore, is additional to the funding provided in the 2025 Estimates allocation.

This is to allow for financial supports to meet the additional running costs of schools and the roll-out of the primary curriculum framework, the continuation of reduced school transport fees and a waiver of State examination entry fees.

Under Project Ireland 2040, the education sector is receiving over €6 billion in capital investment over the period 2021 to 2025. This significant investment is enabling us to deliver high quality building projects, with a real focus on sustainability, for school communities across Ireland, in particular, a focus on establishing and developing SEN. Capital planning and budgeting is undertaken on a multi-annual basis.

The allocation of €1.6 billion for 2025 will support the continued progression of over 300 building projects that are currently at construction. The majority of these projects, as I have mentioned, are due to be completed in 2025 and 2026. This includes over 40 new school buildings, some of which are being delivered in phases. It also provides for additional places in special class and special school settings for pupils with special educational needs.

That is just a flavour of the issues that are reflected in these Estimates. I hope it has been of assistance to the committee to start us off but I am happy to address any queries on any part of the budget that members may have.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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A few members have indicated. I will call Deputy Peter Roche first. I will give eight minutes for a first round of questions. Once we have gone all the way around - I will go last in that rotation - members will come in, if that is okay, for a second round of contributions.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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What is the order?

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, I got indications there. It is Deputies Peter Roche, Darren O'Rourke, Ryan O'Meara, Emer Currie and Jen Cummins, and I will got last then, if that is okay with everyone.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister and her Department official staff for being here. It feels a little like we did not leave here since last night when we had what I consider to have been a very productive, open and transparent meeting with the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, which was also most welcome. There is a great rapport between the two Ministers in tackling the issues that we, as representatives, want to present to them.

Mine is a little story by way of maybe getting an issue addressed. The compelling story that I bring to the Minister is that of a special little boy who has spent the first two and a half years of his life very challenged, and in and out of hospital quite frequently. His condition is hypoplastic right heart syndrome. The story is that they had flagged this to the national school. He is due to start national school in August and that would involve an absolute requirement to have an SNA deal with that. It is a very complex heart condition where he has had two open-heart surgeries and will be medicated for life. He needs to be hydrated regularly which, obviously, would need considerable monitoring with the school setting the same as would be at home. He would need assistance on and off the bus, in and on the yard, and would be on Aspirin on a daily basis. Of course, any bang or injury, in the yard or in the classroom, fundamentally could end in he developing internal bleeding. He would require bathroom assistance. He would require breaks from the standard classroom because of concentration issues and then be liable to have so-called "blue" spells, obviously, heart-related. He is, by all accounts, a very shy boy and lacks a little bit of trust and his preschool report was heart-breaking in the context that he struggles in the classroom environment if he has not that manicuring and support. In school, he is fairly non-verbal but he can chat away at home. He is a very special and difficult case.

I have the emails from the parents and a list of all of the people who have supported him through his condition to back up everything that I am saying today but, regrettably, the application for an SNA for that school in east Galway was refused. I can fully understand at times when these things happen for one reason or another. This is a special case. I am not so sure how the case was presented but, obviously, I am really appealing for the likes of him. Special cases require special attention. He is, by all accounts, a special child with needs. The parents are craving for that kind of assistance to ensure that he gets the necessary or adequate education and would also have the support within the school setting, and give him the best start in life.

The question revolves around SNA supports. I am fairly sure, speaking to the Minister on and off, and of course the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, last night, there is a relentless effort or energy in that regard. In cases such as this that come to us, we need reassurance that they will be managed and that little Joe will get what is required to give him that platform where he can honestly get a good start in life.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I stress that my ambition and that of the Minister of State - as the Deputy has said, we are working very closely together in the area of special education - is to make sure that every child has a school place, and when they are in school in a place that is appropriate to them, that they have the resources and the supports that they need, be it in mainstream, a special class or a special school. Absolutely central to that is making sure we have enough special education teachers supporting our mainstream teachers as well as SNAs, who are providing crucial support in the classrooms.

As the Deputy will be aware, the number of SNAs and the allocations have increased significantly over the past number of years. The funding we are discussing today will provide for an additional 1,600 SNAs to the schools. That is to reflect the need that is there, but also to make sure that where children, such as the young man the Deputy mentioned, need those resources, they are available to them.

What I am trying to do at present is, first, make sure that the allocations for SNAs happen earlier than they currently do. We know the times when school teachers are being allocated. We know that then gives a better length of time for schools to be able to appeal and that can be done within the school year so that we are not coming into the summer period not knowing what teachers are going where. My ambition, and that of the Minister of State, is that for next year we will be able to allocate our SNAs at the same time as we are allocating our teachers, which is much earlier in the year. That would allow us then to undertake any reviews where schools have concerns if they have not been provided with allocations that they feel they should get or if they want to appeal a particular decision.

Obviously, in the past couple of weeks, the NCSE has made allocations. Officials have written out to all of the schools and given them their allocation for this coming year.

Without knowing the exact detail of the school, I suggest that the school, if it is not happy with the allocation that it has received, should appeal. Such appeals are happening now and over the next coming weeks and into the summer.

My ambition, as I said, though it is not okay that we are doing reviews during the summer when parents are planning for the new term, is to bring that forward next year. We are working on that already, but for any school that feels its allocation is not appropriate, it can appeal.

I stress again, though, that in recent years we have changed the model and that it is not specific to the individual child. The NCSE reviews the school on a whole-of-school basis and considers all of the needs within the school and then makes the recommendation and the allocation based on the whole-of-school need. Without knowing the individual case, but fully appreciating what the Deputy outlined and the clear need the child has, it is open to a school to submit those reviews.

My objective is to make sure that we have the funding and that we have the resources in place. The structures are really important so that parents know much earlier than they do now what SNAs will be allocated to the schools and that schools and children know this, and if there needs to be an appeal, that it is heard much earlier than it is currently. I appreciate that this time of the year is not the best time to be saying we are having appeals but that will change next year. We are working hard to make sure that is the case.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire. I will forward the Minister's office staff the correspondence that I received by way of confirming the circumstances.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister and her officials for being here.

In relation to school funding, there is an ambition to increase the primary school capitation grant from €200 to €224.

This year, we had the cost-of-living funding package, which was needed. of €50 million. It equated in real terms to the funding per pupil in primary schools, for example, to be €236. If we do not have that cost-of-living package next year, the net effect would be minus €12 per child. Is she hoping that we will have that cost-of-living package for next year? Is she making that case in the budgetary negotiations? What are her expectations? She will have heard from all the stakeholders that they are under major pressure to make ends meet for schools. What is her initial response on that?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely. It is clear for all of us that schools are saying they need more support. We can do that in two ways. I outlined last week that first it is around capitation, direct funding and direct supports, but also looking at other ways in which we could reduce costs, whether it is insurance, energy bills or other areas. We are working on that. As the Deputy mentioned, the increase has happened in the past few weeks. The €200 grant has gone to €224. Thankfully, schools will see that increase. That comes from a variation in different funding streams. There was the permanent increase through the budget that was achieved last year, as well as funding that was provided through the cost-of-living package. What the budget looks like this year, with cost-of-living packages overall across every Department, is something that has to be worked through. My engagement with officials in the Department of public expenditure on this has not yet started to that extent. The Deputy can take it that from my part I will look to make sure that we do not decrease or stay the same and our capitation increases. That is what I will be working towards. I cannot give a commitment on that.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Is the principle of a cost-of-living package for each Department or for schools next year still in the mix?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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That has to be decided. I will be honest; the key focus at the moment is on our national development plan review and the summer economic statement, which will be published in the coming weeks. Beyond that then is a decision that would have been taken at a whole-of-government level. Unfortunately, I cannot give the Deputy clarity on that.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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It would be a major shock to the system if we did not have it for next year. Related to that point, the reduced costs in school bus transport are significant and welcome. I see that the reduced costs have been provided for under essentially temporary measures. Is there a plan to make them more permanent? Are they dependent on similar cost-of-living temporary measures into the future?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy will see with the funding that has been allocated, there was a permanent increase in the base last year for school transport, which is welcome. It is an additional €54 million on top of that. As part of the cost-of-living, it was an additional €58 million which was provided for. This is where the Deputy will see the two figures in the graph that he has been given. The differentiation is €58 million. Technically, what was being paid out for this year went into last year’s figure. It distorts it slightly. In a similar vein, I will be looking to make sure that we can continue to expand and not just stand still. A pilot was introduced last year for a school transport scheme. We will be looking to maintain that and expand that further, making sure that the 173,000 children who are currently being supported through the scheme can increase further. That will require funding. The commitment in the programme for Government is to do that over the lifetime of the Government. It will take a number of budgets. It will take time, but there is a commitment to do that.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister have an idea of what that phasing might look like that? The commitment is an extra 100,000 children by 2030. Is that 20,000 per year?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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That is the commitment that we have made. We have not set that out yet. The pilot will continue into this year. Once it is assessed, it will give a clearer indication as to what is the best way to apply it. There are certain ways in which we can in lifting criteria and putting in certain routes. The pilot will show us what is working well and what we could do to enhance it.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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School secretaries and caretakers have a strong case for pension parity and pay justice. Are those pension payments budgeted by the Minister? Where does the Department of public expenditure come on those decisions? Is it the case that they are budgeted under the Department of Education and Youth but Government and the Department of public expenditure approval are needed for those increases to happen?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I agree with the Deputy that secretaries and caretakers are an integral part our schools. We need to work with them to make sure they are supported in the work they do. Any changes to terms and conditions, including pensions, would have to be agreed by the Department of public expenditure because it is connected to public sector pay agreements. Any of those negotiations have to come through the Department. Any decisions taken come through the budget. The Deputy will see from the allocation that we have here a huge amount of that is not just pay, but it is pensions as well. That is negotiated through the Department of public expenditure and the public sector pay agreements.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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There is an indication of potential strike action. Time is of the essence to try to get that over the line. I encourage that in a positive vein. On therapies for schools, I was flicking through LinkedIn and saw that the New Zealand education system is looking for speech and language therapists and occupational therapists. It is funny that some of its advocates have Irish accents. They come from here and are working over there. It is welcome that there going to be therapies in our schools. I encourage that we work as possible to get them up and running. The Minister's initial ambition is to do this for special schools starting this September. There is the resourcing of that, with the money in the first instance, and the staff in the second instance because it is a competitive, not just national, but international environment.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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This is an important measure and it is a priority for me and the Minister of State to get this in situ as soon as possible, to expand it and roll it out beyond our special schools. I am pleased in what I am seeking approval at the committee today includes €5 million in capital funding for this school term, specifically relating to therapies, but also €3.2 million in current funding. This will allow us to start hiring occupational therapists and speech and language therapists. It is important that we start this as soon as possible. Hopefully from today, we will have the opportunity to start hiring. We need to make we have the therapists, speech and language therapists and occupational therapists. That is why I am working closely with the Minister for higher education, Deputy Lawless, but also the Minister for Health, Deputy Carroll MacNeill and the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, to make sure that we have the appropriate places in our colleges, but they have the appropriate training places within our health sector to then be able to avail of some of the newer offerings that we are putting in place in the education system. This is about making sure that our children get the supports in school where they spend so much of their time surrounded by their peers. That is the number one priority.

Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister back. I have seen a lot of some of the witnesses recently. It is great to see the committee getting so much work done. I wish to start with the teacher fee refund scheme. A teacher contacted me recently having appealed a decision. This teacher is a guidance counsellor in a secondary school and has done a counselling course. They applied to the teacher fee refund scheme, and they have been refused. They have had to appeal that. The response I received in supporting the appeal and asking the reasons for the refusal stated: "The cost of course participation and examination fees on successful completion of teacher professional training courses are one of the reasons." The course that they are trying to claim back has to be clearly linked to learning, teaching and assessment. Some of the options that could link into that are listed. One is inclusion and tacking disadvantage, discrimination and equality. The second is promoting well-being. While being a counsellor is not going straight to teaching and learning, they are not teaching that in the class, but they are a career guidance counsellor in a school. It shocks me to think that a teacher fee refund scheme would not encourage teachers to upskill in such a way. We are talking about social media and phones in schools and trying to protect children and their well-being.

In the context of the well-being aspect of things, how could career guidance counsellors who become counsellors, which will obviously enhance their job, not qualify for that refund? The appeal is ongoing. We will see if we get it through. It looks a bit limited to me and I really do not think it is acceptable. Anything we can do to improve well-being, mental health and experience of young people in school, outside of just strictly the teaching environment, is a really good thing. If we have teachers who want to upskill in that way for the betterment of their students, we should be doing everything to help them.

I will now turn to an issue I raised and detailed yesterday evening with the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan. I also raised it with the Minister last week without going into the specific details of the case. I refer to the mild or general learning disability classroom in Nenagh CBS Primary School. I went through some of this last week but did not give the details of the school until I had confirmed that I could do so. The Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, was in the school with me last March opening a new special class. The school already has two special classes and the secondary school next door, Nenagh CBS secondary school, is also opening two special classes. We are also getting a new community special school in Nenagh under the patronage of Tipperary ETB. Fantastic work is being done there, particularly on complex needs and ASD diagnoses.

The mild or general learning disability class has been in existence in Nenagh CBS Primary School since the 1970s but the school has been told that it will not be in operation this coming September. The space that it was in is now going to be the new ASD class. The reasons for that include demand for the class. There were four children in this class, three of whom are going into the mild and general learning disability class in the secondary school next door and one is moving to Birr because the class is now gone. I cannot accept the argument that there is no demand for this class. There are no other mild or general learning disability classes in north Tipperary. The next closest is in Cashel which is over 50 km away from Nenagh CBS Primary School. On top of that, the secondary school on the same campus next door has 13 boys in its mild and general learning disability class. That class is at capacity every year. This issue was brought to my attention by the principal of the school when the Minister of State was there. It has now also been raised with me by a parent in the area. Her son has Down's syndrome. He does not have an ASD diagnosis but he has special educational needs and a mild or general learning disability class is where he needs to be. He cannot go to the new autism class in the school or the new special school so he has to go to a school that is 42 km away, with an escort. The parent is really concerned, particularly in relation to inclusion in school. He is now going to a special school with a mild or general learning disability class in Cashel which is very far away from his siblings and community. On top of that, his siblings cannot be enrolled in that school. If the class remained in Nenagh CBS Primary School, he and his siblings could be enrolled there together. He would get the attention and type of education that he needs while also being around his peers and his family support network. He would be getting a properly inclusive education. As I said last week to the Minister, we absolutely need a huge focus on complex needs and on getting spaces for children with ASD diagnoses. I can see the work that is being done in north Tipperary and the amount of classes that are opening in September but we cannot rob Peter to pay Paul. That is what I am seeing happen here. It is very worrying that a class that has existed since the 1970s is going on the basis of an apparent lack of demand when it just does not make sense that the demand is not there. There is also possibly an issue around awareness of this mild or general learning disability class. A lot of rural parishes just outside of Nenagh did not even know about it so parents were not aware that they had the option of putting their children in there. It certainly does not make sense to me that there is such a lack of demand at primary level when the class on the secondary school campus is at capacity. In explaining all of that, my request is that the mild or general learning disability class go back into Nenagh CBS Primary School.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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On the last question, as I understand it my ministerial colleague, Deputy Moynihan, said he would revert to the Deputy but I ask him to forward the details to my office too. As we discussed last week, with any suggested or proposed changes to the designation of any class or school the intention is to make classrooms and schools more inclusive and not to exclude anybody. It is not to prevent any child, irrespective of his or her need, from being allowed to go to a school or classroom. We want to make them as inclusive as possible. That is the number one priority and objective. In Tipperary there are 155 special classes, 17 of which are new for this year alone. They are spread across primary and post-primary level based on the fact that there is a need. We must make sure that we provide for that need. The Deputy has gone into a lot of detail here but I ask him to send those details on to my office so we can check exactly what has happened. If there is a need, as far as I am concerned, we should provide for that need. We should not be sending children past a local school or past where they were and certainly it should never be the case that a child would be removed from a classroom that he or she is already in. It would be helpful to have all of the details.

The Deputy's first question was around career guidance. I absolutely appreciate what he is saying about the support that career guidance counsellors provide. We have a number of different strands and ways in which we are trying to provide counselling separately in our schools. We have a €5 million pilot in our primary schools, included in the funding we are discussing here today, whereby one-on-one support is being provided to primary school students. Obviously we will need to assess the pilot and see how we can expand it further. I am interested in what Deputy O'Meara said about the refund criteria, particularly in terms of the role the individual plays. One can say that guidance counsellors have a different role to teachers and perhaps that should be applied differently. That is something I will have to revert to the Deputy on. We are doing what we can to make sure there is support in our schools, not just through the pilot I have mentioned but also in the reform of the SPHE and RSE curricula. We are supporting teachers to roll that out in different ways through different types of training. I will have to revert to the Deputy on his specific question about the refund. I take the points he made on board.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is lovely to see the Minister again. I have four questions and I hope I manage to get through them all. The first one, which will be no surprise to the Minister, is in relation to a five-year forward plan for the delivery of special education classes and places in special schools. We are in a yearly cycle of delivering places for children with additional needs. Work is under way to make that a more efficient system but it strikes me that we should be doing this with a longer projection than we are currently. Is that something that can be factored into the Minister's Estimates? Is that something she can take on board today?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The plan is to try to make sure we are looking much further than a year ahead or even, as it is now, the year that we are in. If we only find out who the children are that need places in February or March, we are giving ourselves very little time to put those places in situ for September. That is why we are changing our timelines and why we are asking parents and schools to notify the NCSE in October this year, to allow us to plan for next year. Obviously, we want to ensure that we are designating the schools much earlier in order to be able to put the classrooms in place. Separate from that, when we are engaging with schools and considering how many classrooms a school might potentially need, it is preferable to plan much further ahead. In that way, instead of adding one classroom to a school in the knowledge that we might be back the following year to add another, through our capital forward planning we will be able to look at a particular school, acknowledge that the demand will most likely increase and plan accordingly. That is certainly part of our thought process and part of our work at the moment on the review of the NDP and on planning. We are bringing all of the work we do forward by a number of months which will give us greater sight of what we need to be doing and the resources that will be needed.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That is an essential and practical reform that the Minister could implement. The deadline that we are introducing is 1 October and I spoke yesterday about the need for a communications campaign to tell parents that they will be asked to notify the NCSE by that date. Is the communications campaign factored into the Department's budget?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The communications will be conducted through the NCSE and is very much a part of its budget. Work is already under way. A key role of the SENOs is to engage with schools to make sure that principals and teachers know about the new deadline. Obviously, that communication will follow through from the schools to any parents who are thinking of enrolling their child. There is also an onus on all of us, as public representatives, to communicate with our constituents and to highlight not only that we have a new deadline but that there is a deadline, full stop. Already this year there were parents who were late registering because they simply did not know about it.

It is new this year so one expects that to happen. As the years go on, we want this to be just a part of the education system and in the same way parents know when they are enrolling their children and when teacher and SNA allocations are made, parents will know they have to do this by a certain deadline. There will be a communications plan as part of the overall budget for the NCSE. The NCSE's budget has increased by approximately €13 million. There is space within that budget for communications.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That is good to hear. I worked in advertising and marketing for 15 years. This requires a widespread public information campaign, not just through the NCSE. When parents are securing places for their children in primary school, they may not be familiar with the role of the NCSE. A general public information campaign should be supported.

My next question echoes what I raised with the Minister previously about the need for additional allowances for special schools. I pointed out that the allowance for one special school is based on the number of teachers in the school but there are 35 SNAs, ten bus escorts and a caretaker, a cleaner and a secretary. It would be beneficial to increase those allowances. On capitation grants for special schools, I believe it works the same way in relation to the number of classrooms. Will the Minister provide more information on that? Is there room for manoeuvre in allowances and capitation grants for special schools?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The intention is to make sure special schools have the resources they need. A different model is already applied to special schools. Changes were made recently to try to increase them. For example, all special schools will have an administrative deputy, 100 teaching posts have been allocated to post-primary-age students, NEPS has been in all special schools since September 2023, and there is autism guidance, a nursing pilot, a transition pilot and other areas. The Deputy spoke about capitation grants specifically-----

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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And allowances.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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There are special allowances based on equipment or supports that might be needed in classrooms. Following our conversation, I am keen to see if there are discrepancies around the capitation grant and how it is allocated. The baseline we apply to other schools is 60 students. If there are fewer than 60 students, does a special school get less? We will work through to see if there are gaps that need to be filled. It should not be the case that special schools are not able to access administrative support schemes or enhanced support for technology or equipment such as hoists or other important elements in the school. In particular regarding the capitation grant, I want to make sure there is no discrepancy based simply on the number of students in a school.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for listening last week and taking that on board. My next question relates to youth funding. It is startling to see that 1% of the entire budget is for youth. The Minister referenced an increase of more than 9%, to €90 million. In 2023, The Wheel told us youth funding was down 16% compared with 2008, a shortfall of €15 million that has never been made back since the recession. There is an opportunity for youth infrastructure to combine what is being done with after-schools from a capital perspective that can also serve youth clubs. I may speak to the Minister about that again. The youth budget may be eclipsed by the education budget. We need to keep it on the agenda.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It is my intention that we provide further support for youth funding, not just in the current budget but also on the capital side where it is a small part compared with the overall education budget. That is my ambition in the national development plan review. Separately, we need to understand how youth services can integrate and enhance the work in education and vice versa. Work is being in the Department to look at the services we have, what services are provided and how they might fit into the many different strands in education, from DEIS programmes to special education and other areas, and then look at what funding is needed to enhance and support them. It has only been part of the Department for a month. My ambition is to increase that funding over the next few years but it must be targeted and specific on how to make sure organisations are enhanced and supported in their work and complement what is happening in education. It must also be acknowledged that they are separate; it is not all about one complementing the other. They provide different supports and functions for children in different ways. We must make sure we link the two insofar as possible.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister and welcome back everyone who was here very late last night. I welcome all the new people as well for today's meeting. I wish to discuss two connected matters and one that is separate. The first is the school completion programme. I always talk about it because I came from working in the school completion programme. Having spoken to colleagues over the past number of months, with retention plans being done, it is difficult for them to budget with the challenge of the increased cost for increments for staff. When staff are paid by increment, if the budget does not increase to support those increments, that means a reduction in programmes, for example, summer programmes, Easter camps and all the things the school completion programme does so well. Will the Department increase budgets in line with staff increments that happen yearly? I know the Minister probably hears this every day when talking about budgets but everything has increased in cost. Hiring a bus, for example, is really expensive. I have heard it from schools, youth services and the school completion programme. How will the Department tackle the issue of the budget for the school completion programme maxing out from the HR perspective, meaning there is no money for admin or programme delivery such as afterschool, homework clubs and summer camps, etc.?

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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Budgets are being managed so things have to be reduced because you have to pay staff. In the school completion programme, in order to fulfil all the things in a retention plan, something has to go. In the past, that has meant staff have gone on a reduced working year or have not taken increments. In a country so rich, it is not right. It also means services are not provided. For example, they run out of money for summer camps because they are at the end of the budget year cycle, which for the school completion programme goes to 31 August. They rely on SICAP funding or other funding to support them. In a statutory service working with very vulnerable children, that should not happen. Budgets should be sufficient so they can provide everything in a retention plan and there is the best quality in the school completion programme. I will write to the Minister with those examples. Overall it is probably fine but when you drill down to the specifics, it is not working as hoped.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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On youth work, I know it has only been part of the Department for a month. I look forward to seeing how that is elaborated upon in the budget. I cannot see the specifics of how it will work with youth work included in the Department.

Youth work is fundamental to a functioning society. Every time I go to a community and safety forum in Dublin city, who is there? The Garda, Dublin City Council and youth workers. They are fundamental yet they struggle to get premises and to keep staff because it is so expensive. I am a Dublin TD but I know this is replicated elsewhere, particularly in other cities. The cost of living is so high and youth services are stuck for funding. How does the 9% increase the Minister referred to compare with pre-austerity budgets? I am sorry if I am putting her on the spot. She can come back to me on it, if she needs to, at a different time. I would love to see it brought back to pre-austerity levels. They were struggling then. Then there were cuts and funding has not really increased since. How far are we from bringing it back to where it was and then increasing it for where we are now?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I will have to come back to the Deputy on that. I am not sure where the 9% increase brings us relative to a few years ago but I agree with the Deputy. I was at Pride in Navan at the weekend and was delighted to launch Proud Spaces, which is a new venture and part of the work Youth Work Ireland Meath is doing. It is about supporting the LGBTQ+ community. I am very aware of the work the individuals involved do. They need that physical space and the infrastructure is key. My ambition is to increase funding and resources and to understand what they are doing, who is working in the organisations, what the structures are and how to make them as strong as possible. They need to be targeted to specific issues and concerns but with the new UBU funding that is currently open for applications we also have a strong geographical spread. In some rural areas, for obvious reasons - perhaps there is not a large population or a perceived issue in a particular area - there is not the same level of support for youth services and youth work as in urban areas. I want to ensure a proper spread, that it is targeted and that the organisations are supported.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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That leads to my final question. Youth work is very targeted in this country. It is for the most disadvantaged young people and young people who are marginalised in particular ways. Having been a youth worker, I would love to see youth work provided for everybody, so that the funding is not just for targeted supports. That is not to take away from them but it would mean every child, no matter where they come from, what they look like and what they do, has a neighbourhood youth project available in their community. That may be blue-sky thinking but in the world we live in now, people feel very isolated. We talk about people only being on social media. When there is another place to go that is not on the phone and people are encouraged and supported, that is fantastic. People have talked about youth cafés and youth spaces. Going back to community safety forums, people are saying there are young people hanging out. Young people hang out there because there is nowhere else to hang out. I would love to see that rolled out as much as possible.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I agree. We need to have targeted resources and supports where needed but also, more broadly, a geographically even spread, insofar as is possible, urban and rural. It is a preventive element, really, and deals with how we engage with young people before it has to be targeted. I fully support that.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Over the Easter holidays, I got out the paint brush and went painting the outside of the house. I put on the headphones and listened to the audiobook by the Minister's former colleague, Eoghan Murphy. He was a man of great ability and energy. He gave a lot of service to the country. I am sure some in the room have read the book or listened to the audiobook. He found it very frustrating that Departments do not always communicate with each other and the synergies we all want do not always exist. I will begin with some areas that do not exist in the Minister's Department. Bear with me.

School meals are provided in schools each day, yet they are not in the remit of the Department. School transport is a function of the Department of education, yet it is provided by Bus Éireann. Indeed, the Department of Transport has some remit in it. We are still too early in this Government, programme for Government and Dáil for some things to be reformed and straightened out and none of this is the Minister's fault. However, as Minister for education and a member of Cabinet, she might at some point be able to articulate some of this.

Regarding school transport, a Bus Éireann bus with the Irish setter on the side of it arrives at a school. It brings children to school. Then it leaves and returns to depot empty because it is now a Department of Transport vehicle. That does not make sense. School meals have to be hot meals because there is an element of EU funding to them. Many children say that was a novelty when it came to their school but is no longer a novelty and they would like cold school meals.

School meals should come under the Minister's Department and school transport should be solely under her Department. I know the Minister has to do her share of constituency work so she will know TDs sometimes get queries in which do not fall within the silos of a Department and we get the run-around everywhere. If a meal is served to a child in a school and taken away and disposed of in the school, children and teachers have views on that. I think it belongs in the Minister's Department. I do not know if she has the answer to that today but I would love to see the Department realigned a little bit so everything, education-wise, comes under it and it only.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I am afraid I do not have the answer today but there is often crossover between Departments in a number of ways. It is about making sure that what is intended is delivered. For hot school meals, the focus is on making sure every child gets a hot meal. I am pleased to say that is the case for the vast majority of children now. It was decided at the time that this would be done, for the reasons the Cathaoirleach outlined, through the Department of Social Protection. Any change to that would have to be agreed beyond my Department and that of the Minister, Deputy Calleary.

In terms of school transport, when a structure is in place to deliver transport more broadly, it is important to work with that expertise, structure and knowledge. That is why Bus Éireann delivers the school transport scheme. A working group has been established to look at the provision of school transport overall. It is being chaired by the Department of Transport but my Department is key to it. We are looking at every element of school transport, how it is delivered and how it can be more efficient. Some of the pilots rolled out this year placed children on buses that were already in transit between towns and cities. On the Cathaoirleach's point, it is important we do not have empty buses driving around and buses are used whenever they can be. Where there can be a crossover with older schoolchildren, that is something we could explore further. The working group, which is looking at a number of ways we can be more efficient with our school transport, can certainly look at that. The knowledge, structure, expertise and capacity in Bus Éireann to deliver it is the reason for that crossover.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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One and a half million students from junior infants to leaving certificate is the student population in full-time education. We can breeze through Navan in the Minister's constituency, Sixmilebridge or Ennis in my constituency or any town in Ireland these mornings because schools are already closed or are closing tomorrow. There is something fundamentally wrong there. When schools are closed, congested roads are freed up. It is about that joined-up thinking that Eoghan Murphy sought and which we all aspire to. Please let us have a lightbulb moment at Cabinet. If this was done right, we threw a ball of money at the Department of education to fix school transport and did not have 150 cars doing a school drive-off each morning, it could solve many of Ireland Inc.'s problems.

My next point is about teacher burnout. I spent many years in a classroom. In all the years I was a teacher, the school year did not get longer. It is still 183 days. The school day did not get longer either, yet the expectation of what the teacher could deliver has doubled or trebled in some instances. It is everything from childhood obesity and digital awareness to sexual consent and RSE. To speak to Deputy Cummins' point, it is all the tools young people need growing up and the things we as a society need to fix for young people. There is a parental expectation but it does not always happen there, so it is back into the school environment.

Yet with all of that happening, the expectation of what a teacher has to do in terms of accountability to the inspectorate and the Department has also increased. The only tool I know of that has been given to teachers - maybe it has changed in the few years since I left a classroom - is an NCCA planning tool. You can click little options and give your cuntas míosúil, your monthly account of what content you taught in your classroom. We are getting to a point where nurses will say they spend half the time back in the office filling in the charts. Teachers will say they spend half the time filling in reports for the Department in the evening. They do not inform teaching going forward. There needs to be accountability but it has gone on overdrive.

Those in the teaching profession will say that the eyes of the Department of education, not just on the Minister's watch but for decades, have looked across the pond to Britain. The thinking has been that if they moved to this high accountability model over there in the 1960s and 70s, well Jesus, we need to get there too. That is not always the case. The three R's of Irish education which have stood to us and have put us at the top of the education mountain in the world, namely, reading, writing and arithmetic, are often forgotten. Just when you about to open the book, read the novel and deal with literacy, another circular comes in about cineáltas or to do this or that. Could the Minister speak to the point of teacher burnout and could the Department please, in the age of AI and high digitisation, look at better ways of teachers being accountable to the inspectorate and the Department without having to churn out reams of paper that ultimately just gather cobwebs and dust?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I will start by saying that every year in recent years we have seen an increase in the number of people wanting to become teachers. It is a very sought-after profession for lots of different reasons. Given the role that teachers play, it is a highly valued role in our society. As the Cathaoirleach says, it is not just about English, Irish, maths and history. There is so much that is taught in our schools and it enriches and enhances the school. I have been to many in recent months. It is not just the focus on the curriculum itself and exams; it is all of those other elements that make the school what it is.

I appreciate that particularly in recent years there have been changes to curriculums and introductions of new measures. With that there is a level of retraining that teachers have to undertake. I accept and acknowledge that this requires changes from our teachers as well. It is important to try to support them in those changes and to support the work that is being done. There has been a significant increase in the number of additional posts of responsibility across primary and post-primary schools. For anything new that has been introduced, funding is provided where necessary as well. Oide is working with us to make sure any relevant training is put in place. It is about what is happening during the school day and making sure our students are getting a rounded education and that our teachers are supported in doing that. If there is anything further we can do, I am meeting with the association----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I think a bit of AI and digitisation would help to unburden teachers of some of that additional stuff.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I fully agree. The digital strategy that we have, the investment in technology in schools, is having a positive impact. As it rolls out even more in the coming years, AI will be of significant benefit to teachers and students.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Minister. We will go to our second round of contributions. Deputy Peter Burke is next with four minutes.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Roche.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, Deputy Roche, I elevated you there. You are deserving of the elevation.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I nearly had to look behind me to see if there was somebody else there. The Minister's statement is compelling and there are a lot of good things in there. The one thing that strikes me is the cut of €127 million in school transport. That is something that would genuinely concern me. What is the basis for that reduction? Is it that things are done smarter or whatever? I am trying to get my head around it. It is quite significant in an area that we might say should require greater investment rather than a cut. That is my question.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The number of people who have been availing of school transport is increasing. We have over 170,000, with a significant number of young children with special educational needs included in that as well. The figures the Deputy has here are somewhat distorted by the €58 million that was allocated at the end of last year in the cost-of-living measures. The €58 million as part of the €110 million package had to be spent last year but it will benefit students this year. If you take €58 million away from the €509,669,000 and technically add it to the other column, €382,669,000, then you significantly close the gap in that regard. Because it is demand-led and we are only looking at the provision for this September coming, we have to work through what that looks like. The intention is very clear. The €58 million is essentially a double impact because of the way it has been allocated and the time in which it has been allocated. The gap is not as big as it looks. The money that was given last year has actually been helping to reduce the cost for students and parents this year.

Overall the ambition is to expand by 100,000, which will require not just significant funding but will mean more buses and drivers and making sure we are being as smart as we possibly can in developing and delivering routes and providing transport for children. That is what we are doing at the moment with the pilots. We are looking at how we can expand it and what way they are working. This coming September there will be further pilots as part of that to allow us to expand, hopefully.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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If I may, in terms of the educational services for special schools, I suppose I am going to ask the Minister an awkward one but sometimes we have to be parochial. My emphasis will be on east Galway. In terms of the additional 90 therapists, is there an indication as to how many of them will be allocated to Galway?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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At this moment, no, I cannot tell anybody where they might be going. Once this is approved, my intention is that as soon as possible we will open up the process to hire and then working alongside that identify the 45 schools and make sure we have the provisions in place to be able to start therapies during this school year, preferably before the end of this year. We are moving fast. We have had a number of Cabinet committee meetings and quick decisions to make sure the funding is there and the agreement is there at a political level, and to make sure we can start hiring as quickly as possible. In parallel to that, the NCSE, which will be rolling this out, is working very closely with my Department, the Department of Health and the Department of Children, Disability and Equality to make sure the model is correct. We are working together and any supports being provided in our schools by our new therapists will work hand in hand with our CDNTs and teams in the communities to make sure children are getting that rounded support in school but also in our communities.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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On the role of the Minister's Department in early years education, is the ECCE scheme funded through the Department?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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That is the Department of Children, Disability and Equality. There is an element that is still within the Department but the funding of that is all through the Department of children. It is the early intervention classes.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Early intervention is what you do. Very good. There is always a piece there which is interdepartmental around early years educators. If we follow through on the Chair's departmental reforms, that might be one as well in terms of taking early years education under the Department of Education and Youth.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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In the interim, just to say transitions are really important, so working closely with the Minister for Children, Disability and Equality and the Minister, Deputy Lawless, as well.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Yes absolutely. In terms of the change with youth coming under the remit of the Department, how will that be reflected?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It is reflected in the figures here. About €90 million has transferred over. I will find the section. If the Deputy looks at A.10, where there are the figures 150 and 169, it is an increase, and the transfer of youth services of €87 million overall.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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That will continue.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I stepped out between rounds earlier. SpunOut is over in Buswells.

It has a number of specific asks for the budget cycle. I will list a couple of them because they are relevant to the Minister and I told SpunOut' representatives that I would do so. They are seeking €60 million to develop six youth hubs throughout the country or the State; investment of €21.3 million in youth work services; and an annual investment of €135,000 to support a pilot programme focused on building healthy relationship among young people. While it has probably been mentioned in some of the contributions earlier, there is an important role between education and youth. In the context of what is going on in the increasingly complex and dangerous world, it is an important time to try to support young people. I encourage the Minister to take on board those asks. While I am sure she will see those pre-budget submissions, I ask her to take the opportunity to try to secure as much as possible for young people at this difficult time.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely. We have to take on board any budget submission and then put it in as part of our overall bid. I mentioned to the Minister of State, Deputy Cummins, last weekend the proud spaces model, which we both visited, and its importance for young people.

We must ensure we invest in buildings. Many of them are old and not fit for their current use or what was originally intended for them. It is my ambition to do as much as we can to support them.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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While I acknowledge €9 million was spent on phone pouches, I emphasise - and I will be consistent in this regard – that there is a lot of work to be done in the area of digital literacy and tackling social media. All of that does not fall to the Minister. A whole-of-government approach is needed. Some aspects are particularly her responsibility, however. We must look at what the Finnish have done in the area of digital literacy, from pre-school education to primary and secondary levels. It is about empowering children as best as possible.

Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to return to the issue of school transport, about which there has been a bit of discussion. Last week, before my time ran out, I briefly raised with the Minister the mandatory retirement age of 70 for Bus Éireann drivers. This is something I have raised in the Dáil a number of times. I wish to address this issue in more detail. A lot of bus operators are in contact with me about letters they have received stating that some of their drivers, the number of whom depends on the number of buses those operators have, will not be able to operate school transport routes from September. We are talking about some operators that might have 11 routes and have received four or five letters. They are struggling to replace those drivers.

The problem is that these are local, short routes for the most part. It is one hour or one and a half hours in the morning and the same in the evening done by a driver who has had their licence signed off by a doctor. Although they are safe to drive and are insured, they cannot do that route anymore. The same driver could be replaced on the school bus route and the children dropped off at the front gate. The driver who had been replaced could then arrive in a coach to drive those children to the Cliffs of Moher or up to Dublin Zoo on a school tour. They just cannot drive the school bus route. That does not make sense just because they are over 70. Similarly, Local Link drivers can continue to drive when they are over 70. It is a mandatory, arbitrary age put on school bus drivers by Bus Éireann which I find difficult to accept, particularly when there is a shortage of drivers. While I absolutely and 100% support mitigating risk, why is 70 the right age all of a sudden? What about 68, 69, 71 or 72? Why has that age been chosen as the risk, particularly when those 101 licences have to be signed off on by doctors? I cannot comprehend it. I do not see why we are creating this shortage. Although it is not a long-term solution to address the shortage, it is a great way for someone who is retired to do that work in the morning and evening. That work has been taken from them.

A lot of bus operators with whom I am speaking in north Tipperary and north-west Kilkenny will struggle to fill their routes this year. I have called for this policy to be looked at and changed a number of times, whether that means we increase the mandatory age to 72, 73, or 75, or we look at the size of the bus. If Bus Éireann will not let drivers aged above 70 drive a 52-seater bus, what about a 16-seater or 20-something bus that would suit a lot of routes? Could we come to that compromise, while at all times maintaining safety on the routes?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It is my ambition to expand the school transport scheme. That means more bus drivers. The Deputy will know this is a policy Bus Éireann has in place in general. Obviously, it applies to the school transport scheme as well. We are looking at an independent assessment. While a review has been conducted, which recommended no change, the Government gave a clear commitment to do an independent assessment. That work is under way. My Department and the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, are working closely with the Department of Transport and Bus Éireann to conduct work to see whether any possible changes could be made to that policy.

Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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When do we expect that assessment to be completed?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I do not have an exact timeline, but work is under way at the moment. I will come back to the Deputy as soon as we have some clarity on that.

Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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We do not know if it will be before September.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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No. It is my understanding that it will not be before September. I will clarify that for the Deputy. I do not think it will be before September.

Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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If members agree, can we ask the Minister to formally submit that information to the committee? What she said interests all of us.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely. That work is being chaired by the Department of Transport, although between the two Departments we can ensure the outcome of that work is shared with the committee.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I welcome the extension of the free books scheme to leaving certificate level in the free education system.

There has been talk from parents recently about the cost of uniforms. It is my understanding that a circular was published a number of years ago, which stated there should be generic uniforms on which logos could be ironed and so on. How is that being managed? If schools are still telling parents to get uniforms in certain places, which is expensive, that comes at a cost to parents. We want education to be free, particularly at primary level but also at secondary level where some uniforms can be expensive. I am wondering how that will be managed. While the extension to the free books scheme is fantastic, I am worried about the cost of uniforms.

What level does the capitation grant need to reach in order that voluntary contributions for parents can be eradicated altogether? While I know such contributions are voluntary, anecdotally, they are not really voluntary in some cases. That is not great. How can we get rid of the need for schools to be relying on parents giving that voluntary contribution or having to fundraise and so forth to provide the basics of school life? How far off are we in that regard? I will stop talking now because I want to give the Minister an opportunity to answer.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. There is a commitment on the issue of school uniforms in the education plan I published recently. As she said, there was a circular relating to parents getting best value for money as well as that link between schools. There have traditionally been links with particular providers in rural areas. It is about ensuring there is value for money for parents without completely severing those ties. Outside of any circular, there has been a focus on this issue in recent weeks from the Department. It is encouraging schools to work with parents and providers to try to reduce the costs associated with the return to school. We will work on that issue to see how we can try to reduce costs overall.

In respect of the Deputy’s question about the capitation grant, my honest answer is that I do not know when we will get to the stage where schools will never ask for funding from parents. If schools have a decision to make or decide that they want to do something different or new or obtain particular resources they require, it is open to them to ask that question. It is also open to parents to refuse or for the board of management to decide against it. I am not sure when or if we will get to a point where schools never ever ask for funding.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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They might ask for funding for the icing-on-the-cake stuff as opposed to bread-and-butter stuff.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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That is absolutely where we want to get to. That is why we need to make sure the capitation grant covers the basics. We must also try to reduce, where we can, the basics for schools as well, such as through reducing electricity costs with the investment in solar panels and the retrofitting that is happening. New school buildings have much lower energy bills because of their rating. The cost of insurance for some schools is exorbitant. It is about bringing those costs down for schools in order that there is a balance. We absolutely need to make sure that any extra funding parents are being asked for does not go towards day-to-day costs. There is work to be done in that area to try to continue to increase the capitation grant. If schools are struggling - and I say this every time – I ask them to please reach out and to engage with us in order that the Department can support them, if that is what is needed.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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Yes. There is the perspective of the school but also the parents' perspective.

Every year Barnardos issues a statement highlighting that the cost of returning to school is a problem for parents. There are grants. It is trying to mitigate against ever having a situation where families are struggling to get back to school with those increased costs.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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We saw in recent weeks through other Departments that funds are being provided and supported for the back to school allowance, which are welcome. We had foster families included in it more recently as well, and there is also the child bonus. There has been an attempt to try to make sure with any increases or double payments that they are at times when parents need that support the most. We have to work across government looking at the different Departments and how everybody can feed into that reduction of costs overall. Where we have a role in that I will do what I can as Minister to try to reduce costs as much as possible.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister and I thank her officials.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am the last contributor today. I want to bring up the area of physical literacy. We obsessively and rightly talk about literacy and numeracy, but physical literacy often gets forgotten. We expect young people to reach milestones by certain stages of their lives of ability in crawling, walking, running, throwing, catching and all so on, yet we expect all of that to be rolled out in a PE curriculum that is implemented in many schools in a general purpose hall no bigger than this committee room with a ceiling of similar height, with a bake sale for fifth class set up over in one part, a book sale happening in another and a clothes collection in the corner. It is raining outside, and the teacher is under pressure to run it off. Physical literacy is not just about who is going to be the next Clare hurler or Meath footballer. It has nothing to do with that. It is about lifelong well-being. As a country we have a really high literacy rate we can be proud of. Our numeracy rate is high, but we score quite poorly internationally on physical literacy. Some children leave the primary school system and certain benchmarks of where they should be at age appropriate levels of physical literacy have not been attained. Yet, they are not fully assessed and there are no OT assessments. A huge amount of it can be fixed in the primary school and secondary school contexts, but it is also lifelong. We wonder then why someone in their 30s or 40s starts getting tight ligaments or the hips and neck do not rotate as much. It is a lifelong skill. It is about health and well-being, but we are expecting to deliver it in these little boxes.

On top of that the school needs a special class. There is a big enrolment coming next September and officials in the Department will ask why they do not reconfigure the general purpose hall. Suddenly all of what we want to achieve gets wiped because in that room, the bake sale gets cleared out, the basketballs are taken into another storage room and that general purpose hall becomes the special education classroom. Will the Minister please stand up for this, and in the lifetime of this Government give schools a bit of hope that there will be a hall added on to the school or at the end of the pitch or basketball court where they can properly deliver physical literacy and physical education?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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There are a number of elements to that. On the capital side and physical space, approximately 90% of our secondary schools have PE halls and they are generally much bigger than the Chair outlined and allow for the adequate provision of PE and any other type of sports in the school. I appreciate that some of our smaller primary schools do not have PE halls. How we support them and provide that resource has to be done through the capital budget. The more money we have the more we can do there, and I am keen to try to progress that overall objective. The education plan I published recently has a clear number of actions towards the end of this year to expand and develop the 60 minutes per day target. We have given a clear commitment in the programme for Government to provide in schools that children have access to, or are engaged in physical activity for, 60 minutes per day. The reform and change to our curriculum at senior cycle is also key to that. We have the active flag that is being rolled out across schools. Despite the fact that many schools do not have large PE halls, the work they do in obtaining the active flag spans many different areas.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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If I could interject, Minister-----

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It is very few schools you pass that do not have an active flag at this stage.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I would not expect her to do it here in a public forum, but when she walks out into the corridor, the Minister might tell her officials to keep their hands off those PE halls and not suggest that they become special classrooms. They are sacrosanct; just keep them for that. If she delivers on this, we will be carrying her out shoulder high out of the room. There will be no one in government or anywhere opposing that kind of funding. We would love to see it happen, so fingers crossed.

I also mention literacy. Children's Books Ireland estimates that school libraries only have a ratio of ten books per pupil at the moment. That is how poor it has gone. These are not the core books in the school. This is reading for fun, developing imagination and developing literacy. Will she please, in the lifetime of this Government, secure more funding for that? It would be transformative. Teachers can lead on numeracy. They have to stand at the chalk board and go through arithmetic and explain it, but literacy happens in one's mind. The more skills that are unlocked, the more children enjoy reading and their literacy levels go through the roof. That is borne out in the Drumcondra test and the MICRA-T test. It is about having colourful books that bring imagination to life but also speak to modern contexts about how families are constituted, Travellers and people from other countries. A variety of books are needed behind that to grab people's interest. Maybe the Minister could also champion that and I thank her for everything.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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On the previous point, we always have to balance to make sure children have access to school places. That is always the number one intention and objective, and that we can provide those spaces for PE and physical activity. I fully support and agree with the Chair on libraries. The earlier children can start reading the better it is for them, for so many different reasons. I support the objective. We have many fantastic libraries in our schools, so we want to continue to support them.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We only have one member left. If Deputy Cummins agrees, I ask the Minister if she might furnish the committee with a who's who of the Department - just an organisational chart of who is responsible for the different areas. It would be helpful for us in our work beyond the committee rooms.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Okay.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We thank the Minister for her engagement as always, and for being so frank, forthright and helpful to us when she comes here. We thank her officials, particularly those who are on a double shift. They were here late last night, as others have alluded to. It is appreciated by each and every one of us.