Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 26 June 2025
Public Accounts Committee
Appropriation Accounts 2023
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
2:00 am
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This morning, we will engage with An Garda Síochána to discuss its appropriation accounts for 2023. We welcome the following officials from An Garda Síochána: the Garda Commissioner, Mr. Drew Harris; executive director of finance, Mr. Aonghus O'Connor; chief corporate officer, Ms Siobhán Toale; deputy commissioner, Dr. Shawna Coxon; and deputy commissioner, Mr. Justin Kelly. We are also joined by a representative from the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation: Mr. Daniel O'Callaghan, principal officer with the justice Vote. Finally, we are also joined by officials from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, including the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee, and Ms Mairead Leyden, audit manager. They are all very welcome.
I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege, and the practice of the Houses as regards references the witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Witnesses are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity, by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
I invite Mr. McCarthy, the Comptroller and Auditor General, to make his opening remarks.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach. The 2023 appropriation accounts for Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána recorded gross expenditure of €2.3 billion. This was an increase of just over €150 million, or 7%, on the prior year. Expenditure related to the payment of salaries, wages and allowances totalled €1.4 billion in 2023. An Garda Síochána spent a further €426 million on pension and gratuity payments to retired gardaí. These two areas account for just under 80% of total expenditure in the period.
The Vote has a single expenditure programme encompassing all of An Garda Síochána's operations. Apart from standard administration cost categories, non-pay expenditure was incurred in service-specific areas such as transport, aircraft, communications and other specialist equipment and compensation for injuries in the line of duty or due to other causes of harm.
An Garda Síochána's capital building programme is a significant area of spending each year, with charges totalling €47.2 million in 2023. This includes payment of €17.5 million to the Office of Public Works in respect of An Garda Síochána's share of the cost of developing Terminal 7 in Rosslare Europort. It also includes expenditure of almost €6.5 million for the final phases of the substantial new Garda premises at Military Road in Kilmainham.
A total of €15 million of unspent capital funding was carried over to 2024, and the amount remaining unspent and liable for surrender at the end of the year was €10.3 million.
In my audit report, I state that I am of the opinion that the appropriation account properly presents the receipts and expenditure of Vote 20 for 2023, and that the account has been prepared in the form prescribed by the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. Without qualifying my opinion, I consider that €10.9 million of the €17.5 million paid to the OPW in respect of the Rosslare Europort in 2023 was not compliant with the public financial procedures guidelines issued by the Department of public expenditure, or with the accounting policies issued by the Department for the 2023 appropriation accounts. The same accounting issue also affects three other Votes, and Chapter 3 of my report explains the matter in more detail. If Members wish to explore this issue further, it can be discussed with the Secretary General of the Department of public expenditure when he appears in a couple of weeks.
Separately, I drew attention to three other matters disclosed by the Accounting Officer for Vote 20 in the statement on internal financial control. These relate to non-compliant procurement by An Garda Síochána of €5.9 million worth of goods and services in 2023, certain weaknesses in relation to control of stocks, attributed to lack of availability of personnel, and the steps taken to address those weaknesses, an unprompted voluntary disclosure made by An Garda Síochána to the Revenue Commissioners, and payment of €7.5 million in respect of tax liabilities, on foot of a review of the payment of travel and subsistence claims. This matter was ongoing when the audit was being completed.
The report before the committee today examines the cost of policing non-public duty events, and controls over the recoupment of those costs, where considered appropriate. Non-public duty events include private or restricted-access gatherings, such as sporting fixtures, concerts and festivals where An Garda Síochána agrees with promoters or sponsors to provide additional policing services. The Commissioner may, by law, set charges to recover costs associated with policing non-public duty events. Clear policies and principles are required to determine in what circumstances cost recovery is appropriate, and to determine the setting of fees and charges when it is agreed that cost recovery should be pursued. In general terms, the policy is to recover full additional costs incurred related to commercial non-public duty events; not to pursue recovery of costs where an event has broad community or charitable purposes; and 50% recovery where there is a blend of public, community and private interests in an event.
In 2023, An Garda Síochána recovered just over €7 million through non-public duty fee charges. However, discrepancies were identified between actual policing costs incurred and the amounts recovered. At present, a flat rate of €45 per Garda hour is applied. This rate fails to account for overtime, and Sunday or bank-holiday premiums, and is applied to all ranks on duty. As a result, the report found the flat rate represents an assumed, rather than the actual, cost.
A review of a sample of 15 non-public duty events in 2022 and 2023 highlighted inconsistent application of the cost-recovery rate. For several large commercial events, the recorded Garda hours worked on the events exceeded those originally estimated, leading to shortfalls in cost recovery. The examination also found that decisions to waive or reduce fees were not sufficiently documented. This undermines the integrity of the charging regime and potentially results in subsidising commercial activity with public funds. Furthermore, we found fees charged were recorded on a stand-alone spreadsheet that is not integrated into Garda financial accounting records. There was no audit trail for the invoices that were raised, or subsequently reduced or cancelled. This exposes the organisation to an unnecessary level of financial risk.
The report made a number of recommendations aimed at addressing the weaknesses identified to align the non-public duty charging regime with actual policing costs, strengthen governance and safeguard public resources from inadvertent subsidisation of private events. I am glad to report that the Accounting Officer has accepted the recommendations and has outlined actions to implement them.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Mr. McCarthy. We move now to the opening statement by the Garda Commissioner, for which five minutes is allowed, as set out in the letter of invitation. I invite Mr. Harris to make his opening statement on behalf of An Garda Síochána.
Mr. Drew Harris:
I thank the committee for the invitation to discuss the 2023 appropriation accounts of An Garda Síochána. I note the committee's interest in discussing Chapter 6, which deals with the cost of policing non-public duty events. We take very seriously our requirement to ensure value for money in regard to all our spending, including overtime. Our financial position is regularly reviewed and, where required, measures are put in place to reduce potential overspends.
In 2023, the Government provided An Garda Síochána with the biggest budget in its history to date. Gross expenditure in the year was €2.3 billion. After taking account of appropriations-in-aid of €135 million, the net expenditure was just over €2.17 billion.
Looking back, 2023 was a particularly significant year for us and for the country. The State visit of President Joe Biden took place over three days and was a very important visit. He had engagements in Dublin, Louth and Mayo, involving multiple public and crowd events. As such, the visit required one of the largest policing and security operations we have ever mounted. The cost of overtime incurred for the visit was €22 million, which accounted for a large proportion of our overall overtime cost in 2023 of €184 million. Overall costs associated with the visit came in at €32 million.
A further considerable area of overtime expenditure in 2023 occurred in the area of policing protests. That year saw a significant increase in the number of protests, particularly in the Dublin metropolitan region. In 2022, gardaí responded to 307 protests in the region. In 2023, that number increased to 617. The nature of this protest activity was found to be more disruptive than in earlier years. On 23 November, there was very serious public disorder in Dublin city centre. In 2023, An Garda Síochána was allocated an additional €10 million for overtime towards delivering more than 16,500 additional policing hours per month in Dublin city centre from July onwards.
Also in 2023, to support our commitment to increase Garda numbers, we launched a new Garda recruitment campaign under the tag line, "It's a job worth doing". The campaign served to generate interest in An Garda Síochána as an employer of choice. It saw 4,973 candidates apply in 2023, followed by competitions in 2024 and 2025. This creates a strong pipeline for continued growth in garda numbers.
We are committed to meeting the Government's target of recruiting 5,000 gardaí over the next five years. That will require us to expand our facilities at the Garda College. We are working on a plan with the Office of Public Works that will allow us to do so. We are also discussing alternative education options for Garda trainees with third level institutions.
Retention is also an area we proactively seek to address. I have previously pointed to the low resignation rate in An Garda Síochána compared with other police services. While we do not want to lose any gardaí, a total of 140 gardaí out of some 14,000 resigned last year, putting our resignation rate at 1%. This is very favourable compared with other police services and, indeed, other employers. Set against an economy at near full employment, it shows that being a garda is still an attractive proposition. We also see a small number of gardaí who had left now rejoining. Another indicator of the interest in a career as a garda is the strong interest we see in promotion competitions within the organisation.
In terms of gardaí performing non-public duties, we are currently working on the recommendations from the highly valuable audit conducted by the Comptroller and Auditor General. We accept all those recommendations and want to implement them to the full. We have conducted a review of our billing rate and the management of actual costs incurred in respect of policing events and other non-public duties.
I draw attention to some other areas in which we invested in 2023 that will pay dividends in the coming months and years. Notably, we invested €21.5 million from 2023 in our air support unit. That will increase our operational capabilities in respect of policing, security and, in particular, surveillance operations. Those funds have gone towards the purchase of two new helicopters and one fixed-wing aircraft, all of which will be in operation either at the end of this year or the beginning of next year.
We have also invested heavily in the purchase of new vehicles. In 2023, 63 electric vehicles, EVs, were purchased, with 105 full EVs in the fleet at the end of the year. We continue to grow and adapt our fleet. It now stands at 3,672 vehicles, which is an increase of one third since 2018. In addition to the overall increase in the fleet, of particular interest is our purchase of two water cannon and unmarked road policing vehicles. The fleet now includes 44 public order vehicles, 84 armed support unit vehicles, ten community policing vans and 12 forensic collision investigation vehicles.
We have also adopted an information-led approach to policing, which has put more information in the hands of gardaí while on the beat, with the issuing of some 15,000 mobility devices. This improves efficiencies by minimising the time it takes to retrieve information about vehicles and people and enabling swifter issuing of fixed-penalty charge notices. Since their introduction in 2020, we have seen more than 810,000 fixed-penalty charge notices issued in this way.
We have further supported gardaí and our Garda staff with the development and implementation of new technology systems, including the investigation management system, the duty roster management system and the computer-aided dispatch system, GardaSAFE. Last year, GardaSAFE dealt with 1.2 million calls for assistance.
I hope I have given a broad reflection of where we are in terms of our spending in 2023 and how that is filtering through in providing value for money and improving service delivery. I am confident, as Accounting Officer for An Garda Síochána, that public moneys under my control were expended in 2023 with an ethos of value for money and investing in the future of our services on behalf of the State, the Government and the society we serve.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Commissioner Harris. I now open the floor to members, starting with Deputy Séamus McGrath, who has 15 minutes for questions and answers. All other members will have ten minutes. I will allow members back in for a second round if time permits. We will take a short break at approximately 11 a.m. for ten to 15 minutes.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witness for attending. We very much value the work done by An Garda Síochána. The witnesses will appreciate that our work this morning is to ask questions about, and probe into, the use of public money. I ask them not to take our questions as a criticism. We must ensure we get the best possible value for the public money that is spent on the service.
The overall national budget for An Garda Síochána over the past number of years provided for the recruitment of between 800 and 1,000 gardaí in 2023, 2024 and 2025. As I see it, we did not achieve those numbers in any of those years. Will Commissioner Harris outline what the constraints are in terms of recruitment? Is it an issue with recruiting individuals or is it to do with training capacity? What are the difficulties in this regard? In terms of the money that was allocated, how was that money then utilised if we have not achieved the numbers of recruits set out in the budget? Will Mr. Harris indicate how many gardaí he expects to recruit this year?
Mr. Drew Harris:
I might turn to the chief corporate officer in a moment. It is likely that approximately 640 members will attest from the Garda College this year. That will show a growth of approximately 200 in 2025. When the most recent class passed out on 6 June, we were sitting at 14,300. We anticipate being at approximately 14,500 at the end of the year.
We have shown growth in the past two years.
We have done a huge amount of work in respect of our recruitment process and streamlining that to make it more efficient and friendly for those who are applying to join An Garda Síochána. There are things we do that other employers do not do. I am thinking about vetting, the medical, the physical competency test and drug testing. There are elements unique to us, but I point to the speed with which we are now dealing with these applications. In February of this year, we had a competition that closed, and 20 from that cohort who applied in February joined on 9 June. The subsequent intakes in August and September will be supplied by that competition. We also intend to run a competition in autumn this year. I will turn to chief corporate office, CCO, to talk about specifics.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am not being rude, but can we be brief with the answers because the clock is ticking?
Ms Siobhán Toale:
The Deputy is correct that we have not achieved our targets in the past number of years. We had targeted to achieve 200 per intake. We are pleased that in an intake earlier this year we achieved 200, and we want to rise our intakes to 225 and 250. The Deputy asked if it was capacity in the college or something else. Our current constraint is not capacity in the college, but I will respond to that in a minute. Our current constraint has been attracting and getting candidates in. As the Commissioner said, we have made a number of changes to improve the experience of the candidates throughout the process and keep them with us and simplify the process. We are making a further step this year in moving from an annual competition to a further competition. We are pleased to let the Deputy know that we intend to run a further competition in September, so we create a more fluid and always-on pipeline of candidates, and we move from the stop-start.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Ms Toale. I turn to the Garda Reserve. According to the 2023 accounts, €123,000 was spent versus a budget of €1.395 million, which is a significant underutilisation of the budget on the Garda Reserve. Where do we stand with that? Is the service of the Garda Reserve a core part of the service now, or has it diminished in recent times?
Mr. Drew Harris:
This year has seen the recommencement of the recruitment of the Garda Reserve. The numbers have reduced through natural wastage. However, the Garda Reserve we have gives us excellent service, and I often see them on duty in the late evenings in this city, for example, or on big days. We have a recruitment and training process in place.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is still very much part of the Garda service.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is perfect. I turn to civilian staff. The public wants to see gardaí visible on the streets and part of the argument is that civilian staff would assist in the work carried out in Garda stations. Where does the Garda stand on recruitment of civilian staff versus the budget that has been provided for that?
Mr. Drew Harris:
Recruitment of Garda staff is strong. We still have approximately 150 vacancies to fill this year, but we are focused on the roles Garda staff can do. It is an oversimplification to say administration. We want them to have roles, which in effect are operational support. We have seen this in our control rooms where they have effectively displaced gardaí onto the ground or into operational duties. They are performing call handler- and call taker-type functions. We want to extend that further and look at what other roles they might take on, which would be operational support, effectively freeing up warranted members.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Commissioner is on record saying that he would like to see the Garda force at approximately 18,000. Is that still his view in the context of providing the service required?
Mr. Drew Harris:
That is a realistic number, given population growth and our national responsibilities. Those are international responsibilities as well, in terms of working with other partners. All of that is developed. There is also exponential growth in domestic abuse, which was covered in some detail yesterday. We can see that worryingly continues to be a growing area. There are also other serious crimes in the area of sexual assault and other areas like the growth of fraud as part of cybercrime. There are lots of areas that were not significant problems 15 years ago, but they are now here. At the same time, we want to maintain a strong presence on the streets. People find it reassuring to have community policing plus a presence in our town centres. We have a lot of areas to cover. Everybody is working hard at the moment, but certainly, given our responsibilities and how they will grow over the coming years, 18,000 is a reasonable figure.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I turn to the provision of the service, how it is on a national basis and whether there is equality in the provision of service. What I am getting at is the allocation of gardaí to various districts and divisions. I will be a bit local and ask about the Cork city division, which is an area that feels under resourced in allocations. Following recent attestations, the allocations to Cork city were in single digits. In terms of it being a public service and ensuring people get a fair public service across the country, will the Commissioner explain the rationale of the allocations to ensure there is equality for citizens who are taxpayers? Are they getting a fair and equal service across the country? I particularly refer to the low numbers allocated to Cork city in recent attestations versus Dublin city. It is not proportionate to the population. I have examined this in some detail. I ask the Commissioner to comment on that.
Mr. Drew Harris:
First, a lot of the movement into Dublin is to allow consequentials, which are to allow others to move, who have had long-standing transfer requests. That is often back to Cork, Limerick, Galway, etc., and back to more rural areas. That is a movement effectively hidden in those figures and that is continuous. Second, we had a focus on a business plan and operational plan for Dublin city centre. That has delivered results. I am aware Cork is formulating its own business plan for me to consider for the August passing out parade. We want to replicate the success we have seen in Dublin in our other major city centres across the country. We have to manage the numbers we have and there is always tension about who gets what when. National and specialist units also have to be staffed. There is always a balance, but as we continue to grow some of those pressures will ease.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will stay on the theme of service and value for money with our Garda stations. I represent a constituency where Garda stations in large urban areas are simply not open. They are not accessible, manned or staffed. I live in Carrigaline, which is a town of 20,000 people, with a hinterland of more than 30,000. There are a number of Garda stations in Passage West, Crosshaven and Carrigaline but they are not accessible to the public. They are not open. How is that providing good value for money and service to our citizens?
Mr. Drew Harris:
We have an extensive estate. We have not sought to close any stations. Why we want to retain that estate is that, as we grow and are able to staff those stations more, then the service we provide will grow as well. I am conscious of the number of stations we have that can be manned by one or two people. Our model is to be close to the community. To do that, we wish to open stations, but it is against our resourcing profile at the moment that we find ourselves in a position where stations either are not open or are not open 24-7. Our hours are restricted, but we want to move from that. I know people take heart from a station being there and there is a lot of confidence from a station being open. We are certainly tied into that model of policing.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I appreciate that. The Commissioner knows the importance of people being able to walk into a Garda station locally and speak to whom they consider to be a local garda. It is important and that familiarity is the bedrock of An Garda Síochána in the area of community policing. I appreciate him saying that.
I turn to the non-public duty events and what the C and AG has highlighted. I welcome that the Commissioner has accepted those recommendations. In 2023, about which we are primarily speaking this morning, €7 million in fees were collected in that area. It appears a lot of work is required to manage that situation better through an audit trail, apportionment of costs and so on. Does the Commissioner accept there will be increases in fees for private events, concerts and so on, based on the C and AG's recommendations?
Mr. Drew Harris:
As has been stated, we have three strata. The first thing is to reassure people of our support in respect of smaller events, charity events and community events. With respect to purely commercial events, the hourly rate, as it is at the moment, is not reflective of our overall cost. A comment has been made about the utility of the RDM system and how joined up our systems are. We have taken all the recommendations on board and want to work those through.
Having said all that, we are very conscious that there is always a public safety element to a major concert. Beyond just charging, we have an obligation concerning the prevention of crime and preventing people being preyed upon by others as they enter or leave a concert. Since there is a policing obligation as well, I am not entirely sure we will ever get to the point of having 100% recovery of funds. I am not sure we would want that because I do not want to lose my operational independence, and I want to have a part of this which I will have paid for because the prevention of crime is my responsibility. We entirely accept the report. We will implement it, and then we will have to provide guidance to our chief superintendents who are making the operational decisions on how to deliver.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In his opening statement, Mr. Harris referred to air support and the acquisition of two new helicopters and a fixed-wing plane. These seem very welcome. We are moving towards more modern methods of policing and so on, and in this regard the deployment of the technology is very welcome. Have we one helicopter currently?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Typically, how often are the aircraft deployed each week?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
There are several deployments per day, particularly of the helicopter. The aircraft we are getting – the Airbus H145 – have additional capability, particularly in respect of night-time flight capability and capacity. We will actually be able to move people around the country in them in numbers. We do not have that capacity at the moment. The Deputy will be aware of the types of duties the helicopters are used for at present, but the new ones will provide us with capacity to move specialists around the country.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is good. The staffing of the aircraft, with pilots and so on, is all in train.
May I turn to the issue of GoSafe, which the Comptroller and Auditor General has highlighted? Between 2022 and 2023, there seems to have been less paid in respect of the GoSafe service. Does that mean there was less GoSafe activity in terms of speed enforcement? It appears that we bring in more from the service than we spend on it, which is positive, but I wonder why we do not roll it out more given the importance of road safety. It seems this would be sensible. It was highlighted in terms of the reduction from 2022 to 2023. Does the reduction reflect less activity? Could I have Mr. Harris's opinion on that, if I may?
Mr. Drew Harris:
If my memory serves me well, there was actually an uplift in expenditure in the latter part of 2023. The year 2024 saw a considerable expansion of the operational deployment of GoSafe, but that was to address the extraordinary circumstances of the road deaths and the serious injuries on our roads. That was an appropriate response. Throughout 2024 and into 2025, both fixed cameras and average-speed cameras were deployed.
Let me emphasise the issue of speed. Of the 79 deaths we have had on our roads to yesterday, 51 relate to single-vehicle collisions. These are attributable to driver behaviour. When you step back and look at the figures, you see that speed is undoubtedly a certain element. Therefore, we are pleased to uplift our investment in this regard and also to invest in static and average-speed cameras. They make a significant difference. In the main, where we introduce the static cameras, we see speed reduce over time.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am very supportive of the work of An Garda Síochána. Its representatives' appearance at this committee is really important in ensuring the trust and confidence of the public in the fantastic work An Garda Síochána does. As the Deputy highlighted, we will want to go through a couple of points with the witnesses. It is important to ensure that issues, including those the Comptroller and Auditor General raises, are addressed so we can continue to ensure the trust and confidence of the public in An Garda Síochána.
When I looked at programme A overall, I noted it had an awful lot of spending items in it and found it quite difficult to ascertain what was spent on roads policing or domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, for example. From a transparency perspective, it would be really helpful if the key categories of the work of An Garda Síochána were broken out. Is there a plan to do that? Has this issue been raised previously?
Mr. Drew Harris:
This issue goes back to the Commission on the Future of Policing requirement for a costed policing plan. This is something we are working towards in terms of the delivery of the systems, namely the financial and IT systems we need to deliver what is required. However, it would require a significant uplift in our ability to audit the time people spend on particular duties. We have specialisms, and while it is easy to say the work of the drugs unit is all related to drugs, a lot of our work is done by front-line gardaí and community police, who can cover a variety of areas. Winnowing out how much time they spend tackling drugs as opposed to antisocial behaviour or road traffic collisions, for example, is more difficult, but we certainly believe this is important. Where we spend our money is important and we want to be able to illustrate that in a stronger fashion.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I agree with that.
Let me refer to domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. I represent Dublin Fingal West, which includes the towns of Balbriggan, Skerries, Rush and Lusk, the rural villages and the area all the way down as far as north Santry and a little bit of north Finglas. It is a very mixed area. For a Dublin constituency, it is very different in that it is rural, urban and suburban. When I met the acting superintendent in Balbriggan, I asked him what the two key issues in the area were. He said domestic, sexual and gender-based violence was a really big one. Balbriggan is the youngest and most culturally diverse large town in the country and it is growing rapidly. With regard to being able to ensure we are addressing the issues, it would be good for me to understand what money is being invested in our response to queries. Do the local gardaí have sufficient training and funding to deal with such a huge issue? Women's Aid reported yesterday the highest level of disclosures in its 50-year history.
Mr. Drew Harris:
I will respond briefly and then turn to Deputy Commissioner Coxon. We welcome the Women's Aid report. It follows on from a report that the Garda Inspectorate issued in October of last year. The latter made 52 recommendations and some of its operations chime with and are supported by the Women's Aid report. The majority of the recommendations are for An Garda Síochána and some are for the Department of justice. Deputy Commissioner Coxon might refer to the work we have done in respect of those.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
We very much welcomed the Garda Inspectorate report. It is extremely comprehensive. Thirty-seven recommendations pertain to us, ten of which have been addressed already. This is an area we take very seriously. We are seeing the same trends that Women's Aid is seeing. In the last week of 2024, we had the highest number of disclosures that we have ever had in any given week. That trend is always rising. It is steadily increasing. Reporting is something we are seeing as well. We are concerned about some of the findings of Women's Aid with respect to some of the responses from us. Those are matters we are looking into.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is there funding going into training more gardaí to deal with this?
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
There is. To go back to the Deputy's question on tracking money, because we are not able to track by way of activity I cannot specify the bucket of money we are spending on this.
Having said that, training is part of the recommendations by the inspectorate. We have comprehensive training in this area already, but it is something that we need to look at yet again in respect to the report that came out.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Considering it is one of the top two issues, should every garda be trained in this area?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am conscious of my time. I will quickly get through a couple of more questions. Regarding recruitment, the target is to recruit more than 5,000 gardaí over the next five years, which is very much welcome. There is a senior vacancy in the area I represent. The superintendent position has not been filled for many months. Two gardaí are acting up. Given the demographics of the area, it is important that there is a clear management structure and confidence shown in the gardaí who are supervising the area. Is there a particular issue to why that position has not been advertised or filled?
Mr. Drew Harris:
We are in a particular moment of time with the transfer to the new Policing, Security and Community Safety Act 2024. That meant that a promotion competition to superintendent has not run for two years. We have exhausted in effect our promotion list. That will run later this year and then will allow those vacancies to be filled. We are under our establishment for superintendents at this moment in time and we want to address that.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When does Mr. Harris expect that to happen? It goes to the heart of retention and recruitment as well. We need to make sure that these positions are being filled to encourage recruitment.
Mr. Drew Harris:
The competition finishes in September. We are also running competitions for other ranks. We could carry on with promotion competitions for sergeant and inspector. For superintendent and above, there is just this hiatus around the legislation. A lacuna has opened up around all the promotion lists. That will be addressed this year.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is that something that the Minister for justice is aware of?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In the couple of the minutes of left, I will also turn to chapter 6. In reading it, it feels like work needs to be done here on due diligence, including recording the rationale for the various different decisions as to why some events were fully abated and some were not. As the Comptroller and Auditor General has highlighted, it is important for transparency. Some of these are run by private operators, while others might be more community based. It is important that we get that right. If different rates are needed to apply to different events, for example, smaller events being a different rate, big events having such a rate and charity events having such a rate, there definitely needs to be work done here. Mr. Harris mentioned wanting to retain a little control. I am not sure that the legislation allows that. My understanding is that the legislation provides that the Garda should charge the actual rate. That is clearly not happening at the moment.
Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:
It is a complex matter. That is why we are working through the fully loaded cost model. As the Commissioner said, there are three tiers. We are working through that ourselves at the moment in relation to how we actually would manage that going forward.
The legislative basis is also being reviewed by our legal colleagues. We are not able to determine that as of yet. There are ongoing discussions across the whole Garda organisation on how to best manage that.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will we see these inconsistencies repeated in the 2024 accounts, but hopefully not from 2025 onwards?
Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:
Substantial changes took place in 2024. There is a better place in 2024, but we are very much reliant on a new accounting system. That new accounting system was supposed to be delivered in August of this year. The NSSO has pushed that out to April of next year. We will not find a conclusion of all of the recommendations as set out by the C and AG until such time as we have that accounting system.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The rationale has been documented-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses for their time.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach. Tá fáilte roimh na finnéithe go léir. Tá muid ar ais arís. Buíochas le Dia go bhfuil an t-am corraitheach a bhí ann roimhe seo nuair a bhí mé ar an gcoiste thart. Tá muid bogtha ar aghaidh agus is féidir díriú isteach ar na gnáthrudaí, buíochas le Dia. I congratulate the witnesses. They have been given a clear audit opinion. That is important for trust. There are approximately nine issues in total that between us all we might get to. I will start with the last issue which is the non-public duty. I will then move on to stock control, domestic violence, the Irish language and then policing generally.
I wish to go through the four recommendations. Where are we at? The first one is complete. The organisation has carried out a review of ten events. Is that correct? I am going to go through yes-no with these questions because they have been dealt with. Where are we at with the four recommendations? With the first recommendation, the organisation was asked to carry out a periodic review. Has that started?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Has the first periodic review been completed?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
So that periodic review has not been completed.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When will it be completed?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will Mr. O'Connor be looking at the base cost of €45 per hour and the actual cost and anything else that emerges from that?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When did Mr. O'Connor say that would be?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Next is the recommendation relating to the inconsistency in the waiving. I acknowledge the balance exercise that has to be performed. Independence of gardaí must be upper most. I had forgotten that we charge for policing for non-public duties. It is all the more important that it is open and accountable. Where are we at relating to the abatement of fees recommendation?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
All of the documentation that was recommended to have is now to hand for each one and will be for future.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Recommendation three is target set for recovery.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is that the challenging part because of the accountancy system?
Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:
It is challenging from two perspectives. The C and AG and the Commissioner alluded to the three bands to try to get the balance between those three bands with local community events, mid-tier events and large commercial events. We are working through at the moment as regards-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is not really that hard in terms community. Some of them are very obvious while others are a bit more complicated.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Who is looking at that or what is the process at the moment relating to that analysis?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When will that be completed?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The final recommendation related to an obvious matter. This is formal procedures in relation to billing cancellation and receiving the receipts.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Was this at the end of 2023?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What is the total outstanding for 2023, 2024 and to date?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When will that process be completed and formalised?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is fine. We will move onto stock control. I zoned into this, but it is not my area. Something jumped out at me relating to McCabe, Bailieborough and the Higgins report, stock control and a computer that went missing. I was tuned into this from years ago. I am not making any point on that. I am telling Mr. O'Connor where I am coming from when I consider stock control. According to the Comptroller and Auditor General, this is a recurring issue. How is there a recurring issue with something as basic as stocks? Is that confiscated goods? Will Mr. O'Connor clarify what are the stocks and how we have a problem here and a recurrent issue?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is that what it is?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does it relate to confiscated goods?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Am I reassured then those issues are resolved?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Like computers.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What is An Garda Síochána's control so that items do not go missing or disappear?
Mr. Drew Harris:
They are individually marked and then retained within property management stores. There is a property manager at each divisional level. There has been training. There was a huge focus on this with the Policing Authority last year in terms of our systems and making sure they are entirely up to date.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is Mr. Harris, as Commissioner, reassured that the procedures are there that items do not go missing and that there are sufficient controls and procedures in place?
Mr. Drew Harris:
There is sufficient control. I am reassured but I have to caveat that to some extent and acknowledge the theft of two kilos of cannabis, for example, from Carlow Garda station. These were drugs that should have been properly secured within the PEM system but were stolen from a locker.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Was that recently?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
An Garda Síochána has a system but still something-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Are there any other things that have gone wrong other than the one the Commissioner mentioned?
Mr. Drew Harris:
We are working through a project on the amount of cash we hold and how we can reduce that. We are also doing an assessment of the drugs that we hold. Some of these cases are very old and the fugitives have long left these shores. We are doing an analysis of what evidence we need to keep.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
An Garda Síochána is looking at that now.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When will that be completed?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is that an analysis with a start and finish time? I might turn to Deputy Commissioner Coxon, who has been leading on this.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
With respect to the money, we did an analysis in the fall, so we know how much money we have and where we have it. We are working through a process on how much of it can be moved from our PEM system and into banks. We are looking at how to draw that off. That is a very complicated process because you have to go out to each individual investigator to make that determination and there is paperwork to be done. We are working through that, but we do know what the figures are and we are satisfied with that.
With respect to drugs that is in train. I do not have a definitive answer on that, but we are going through the same process.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In my last two minutes, I am going to come back to the Commissioner. I want to discuss domestic violence. The figures yesterday were shocking. I sat on a joint policing committee. I know the progress that has been made with the protective units. I pay tribute to the protective units. However, a figure stood out yesterday. More than 40% of victims are dissatisfied with their initial contact with the Garda. I understand; I have contacts in the force. I know the difficulty in garda stations, but is that not a shocking figure? Women’s Aid raised an issue with the inadequacy of training, particularly for ordinary gardaí. What is the programme in place for that? I follow this. I know the figures. I do not like the words "pandemic" or "domestic"; it is absolute violence. It has to be taken seriously. The figures are going in the wrong direction.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am just asking about the training for ordinary gardaí.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Has that started?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am going to stop the Commissioner Harris. Will he send us a note on what training has started and so on in view of yesterday as we are all interested?
I will go on to my final two matters I want to discuss. What percentage of An Garda Síochána atá in ann a gcuid oibre a dhéanamh trí Ghaeilge?
My final matter relates to public policing. I want to see more policing. I read all the documents. We all want visibility. Then we come back to the protest and the allegation about a strip search, which is strictly not related to this committee. I am asking for an update. There has been a complete denial by An Garda Síochána, which I understand, about the strip search allegation. I understand there is an update and that the woman in question has come back through her solicitor. I realise the sensitivity around it. Could the Commissioner give an update on that and on the Irish language?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Through her solicitor, I believe.
Ms Siobhán Toale:
I regret that I do not have the figures on the fluency in Irish, but we can make them available shortly. In relation to the training on domestic and gender-based violence, there is a continuing professional development programme in the making and due to be delivered to all Garda members this year. It will be a three-day programme: one day online and two in-person. That might address some of Deputy’s-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Ms Toale might be put in a note.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
My question on the Irish language arises because An Coimisinéir Teanga did a report and found that An Garda Síochána was not complying with its duty under the language Act. That is the context. It might be looked at.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We will get a note on that from the Garda. I call Deputy Kenny.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I welcome the witnesses. I always support the work of An Garda Síochána. I thank Mr. McCarthy for his report and opening statement. My first question is to the Commissioner. He referenced the last visit of President Joe Biden. I understand that a chief superintendent and his wife were accommodated at the Westbury Hotel in Dublin despite the fact that the garda is stationed in Garda HQ and lives in Dublin. Can the Commissioner confirm whether that is true? A number of Garda members have raised this.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Can the Commissioner clarify this to the committee in a note?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I want to move on to the nonconformity in relation to the destruction of defective ammunition rounds. The Commissioner will be well aware of this photograph I am displaying.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
He is well aware of it. On the declaration of destruction for that nonconformity in relation to the destruction of defective ammunition rounds, the overall costs go well beyond the recognised shipping and destruction costs of €160,000. The key issue is that a defective product was supplied by a company in Italy. The onus therefore was on that company and its agent in Ireland, which I believe is Daniel Technologies, to recover the defective munitions, transport them back to Italy and ensure their destruction. However, for what I believe is an unexplainable reason, a member of sergeant rank was permitted to issue a declaration of destruction for nonconformity to the Italian company placing responsibility for destruction back on Garda HQ with significant costs being borne by the public. Did the Commissioner approve the issuance of the declaration or was the sergeant simply permitted to write off €160,000 of public funds?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That absolutely beggars belief. It is €160,000 of public money. If I bought a television, I would not pay to get rid of it. I would bring it back to the company that sold it to me. A total of €160,000 of the public's money was spent on the destruction of this ammunition and it did not pass the Commissioner's desk. Is Mr. Harris telling me that a member of sergeant rank issued this declaration of destruction?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This is very questionable. Mr. Harris was well aware of the photograph. Was he made aware of this photograph before the declaration of destruction was sent out by the member of sergeant rank?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I would appreciate it if a note could be sent back to the public accounts committee on that.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Mr. Harris. I want to move on to the defective holsters. This issue has been raised on a number of occasions at the committee. They were purchased from Declan Clancy Saddlery in Kildare at an estimated cost of about €500,000. This issue has been raised publicly on a number of occasions, more than likely, obviously, due to the fact that it seriously injured a member of An Garda Síochána and led to Detective Garda Colm Horkan's death. At a previous attendance before the public accounts committee, Mr. Harris stated the holsters had been withdrawn from service, which suggests he accepts the holsters were not of appropriate standard. Has he done anything in his role to recoup the cost of the €500,000, which, again, has been borne by the public?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
So €500,000 of public money has been wasted with the shredding of these defective holsters.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When he appeared before the public accounts committee previously, Mr. Harris said the holsters had been withdrawn from service, which suggests they were not up to the required standards.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We need to be careful if the case is before the courts. There are allegations-----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am not asking about a certain case; I am asking about the equipment.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am just saying that we need to be careful.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Nothing has been done by An Garda Síochána on recouping €500,000 for these holsters.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does Mr. Harris believe that is acceptable?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Mr. Harris might not have to hand the number of holsters bought for €500,000 and the number that were used.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will Mr. Harris bring it back as a note to the committee, basically stating the number of holsters bought from the company in Kildare and the number of holsters used. I do understand that some of them were used but, at the same time, a number of them were probably not used. The suggestion has been made that there were not up to the correct standards. We have not gone back and tried to recoup €500,000 of the public's money. To me that beggars belief.
I have several minutes left. I want to ask the Commissioner about what I consider to be the elaborate operation surrounding the delivery of Garda-held firearms to the late Evan Fitzgerald. The firearms were not trafficked or imported into the State as alleged. This operation did not occur within the space of a day. It was over a long period. Members of An Garda Síochána monitored and engaged with the young man while also having him under surveillance. Does the Commissioner believe that such an operation was necessary? If so, will he provide the financial costs and the opportunity cost?
Mr. Drew Harris:
Yes, I do believe the operation was necessary. I have reported to the Minister on the operation and a file was submitted to the DPP as well. The DPP accepted the file and charges were preferred in respect of those firearms and other items, including explosive items. I do think, in terms of public safety and the danger there was to the public, that the operation was fully warranted and proportional. I can report back on what the costs might have been.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Given that the firearms had not been trafficked or imported into the State, does Mr. Harris believe the elaborate conduct of the operation surrounding the surveillance and the use of An Garda Síochána members was essential in this case?
Mr. Drew Harris:
Yes, absolutely. These matters are still before the courts. There are still two individuals who are being dealt with in front of the courts. I do not want to elaborate further. I think that, once more detail emerges through the court process, people will see for themselves why this operation was entirely proportionate.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have finished, but I have asked that three pieces of correspondence be sent to the committee.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I apologise for having had to step out of the meeting for a moment. I will start by saying I am very supportive of the work of An Garda Síochána, particularly in my home town of Drogheda and the work being done by that division in recent years. Everyone will be aware that Drogheda has been the centre of a very vicious feud between drug gangs, which has terrorised families and destroyed homes to the extent that it has decimated communities. Eventually it surpassed probably the lowest point in gangland history in the nation, with the torture, murder and dismemberment of a teenage boy in 2020.
With this in mind, I want to touch on Mr. Harris's comments on recruitment and how he disperses personnel among divisions. I believe the alignment of policing divisions under the new operating model is not working for Drogheda. The focus has moved away from the largest town in the country, with a population that continues to grow. Earlier, the Commissioner referenced population growth as one of the contributing factors as to where personnel go. The figures show that in 2022, there were two sergeants and 14 gardaí in the community policing unit. At present there are one sergeant and five gardaí, from what I can see in the latest figures. I feel we have taken the foot off the throttle, and in time it will undermine the great work that was done under the baton of the former chief superintendent Christy Mangan, the current chief superintendent Alan McGovern and Superintendent Andrew Waters. They have been crucial in rebuilding trust and confidence in An Garda Síochána among the people who live in Drogheda.
I want to query why Garda numbers are down, particularly community gardaí, in Drogheda, especially considering that most of the Commissioner's comments today have been on the significance of community gardaí and the visibility of police on our streets. It is that bad in Drogheda that last month the ten county councillors who are based in Drogheda protested outside the Garda station in fury over the lack of visibility of gardaí patrolling the streets of Drogheda.
I would be keen for Mr. Harris to comment on that.
Mr. Drew Harris:
I do not have the detail around the community teams in Drogheda with me. It is difficult for me to comment specifically on what the numbers are as we speak today. I certainly can report back. I know that division has received personnel in every passing-out there has been from the college, and we continue to support that. We recognise that Drogheda is very much now seen as an area of population growth and that is very clear from the growth of the town. We are acutely aware of the impact and trauma from the feuds and the bloody feud that was carried on there. I would also point to the success we have had, along with others, in combating that and the close work with the community and other statutory and voluntary agencies. That has been a great success story and we certainly would not want to lose ground. I might have the opportunity to report back on that and if I do, I undertake to do so.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I really appreciate that. I do commend the work, particularly of Operation Stratus. It has been a massive success in recent years and continues to be. We need a fully operational community policing unit to keep things at bay and, more importantly, to keep down the barriers that have been broken down, particularly by the superintendent on the ground in Drogheda, and to rebuild that trust and confidence of the townspeople.
I will go back to some of the accounts. On pages 4 and 5 of the annual report, non-compliant procurement to the tune of almost €6 million is detailed. It is a huge sum. Is the Garda not following procurement rules? Has it engaged with the Office of Government Procurement to improve practices?
Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:
I will take that question. As I said, we are transitioning to a new accounting system that will help us to manage all of this procurement in a better space. In the meantime, we have increased resources to the procurement unit and the skill base of the people assigned to the unit. More of them are procurement experts. Both the increased knowledge, as in technical knowledge, and increased resources are making improvements across the procurement landscape. We have a journey to travel on this. We are not there but we are travelling it at pace at the moment, partly because we have the European Presidency coming in less than nine months' time, and there is a large procurement piece there as well.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Have any of the non-compliant procurements been with companies that were flagged in previous annual reports?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This is the public accounts committee. That information should be to hand. I would appreciate if that could be circulated to the committee, please.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On page 7 of the accounts, there is correspondence relating to a €7.5 million Revenue bill. I understand it relates to travel and subsistence claims. Can the committee have a briefing note on that so we can understand, in detail, how that happened and how it is being remediated? It is a huge sum as well.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Again, I will come back to page 5 of the accounts. It details overpayments in salaries and pensions. I understand it is a large organisation and things like this happen. I come from an accounting background so I have worked in that field. A total of 73% of salary overpayments have been recovered but only 4% of the pension overpayments have been. Is there a reason the recovery rates are so low in this field? Will Mr. O'Connor comment on what has been done to improve that?
Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:
The payments generally, including payments to retired members, are processed by the NSSO. We are working with the NSSO to bring down the number of overpayments and also to rectify the historical imbalance. That is an ongoing process. We are very aware of the recent media commentary in that space and we are working on that.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Comptroller and Auditor General has drawn attention to the expense incurred on a new building at Rosslare Harbour. It was €10.9 million, again compliant with the procurement guidelines. Attention was also drawn to the overspend on cars. In relation to the cars, was another provider tendered for the contract on the cars or was there only one?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There was an overspend on Garda vehicles.
Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:
The reason for the overspend, as the Deputy might remember, was that on 23 November 2023, there were the Dublin riots and maybe a day or two thereafter, the then Minister for Justice allocated €4.4 million of additional moneys for vehicles. Some of that allocation was made in 2023 and some in 2024. That, in the main, explains the overspend on the vehicle side.
In relation to Rosslare, as the Comptroller and Auditor General called out in the opening statement, that is an issue that affects a number of Votes. It is not us exclusively. We have taken direction from the centre and are in compliance with the advice given to us. If there is a question on that, it is a very technical accounting question and I would not be in a position to answer it at this moment.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is fine. Coming back to the vehicles, was there another tender or was that the only tender for the purchase of those vehicles? Did anybody else bid for that tender?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I understand that but on this particular expense, was there only one tender or were there multiple tenders? What was the reason this tender was chosen?
Mr. Drew Harris:
If I might assist, the public order vans we use have to be of a certain weight capacity to carry Garda members plus the equipment and there are only a couple of vans that will meet those requirements. We are driven as much by the requirements and what the capabilities of vehicles are and their accessibility in this marketplace as well. We urgently wanted to uplift our public order vehicles and we did that by acquiring vehicles that met our needs in a pretty tight market space.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
And that were in the supply chain as well.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the Commissioner and the other witnesses for attending. My first question will deal with issues that were asserted in the other House on 24 June and relate to issues we discussed earlier in response to other questioning. It was asserted in the Seanad on 24 June that "I just want to put on the record that this was a case of entrapment." Will the Commissioner explain the difference between entrapment and controlled delivery, from the perspective of An Garda Síochána?
Mr. Drew Harris:
I took note of the comments made in the Seanad and referred them to the ombudsman for consideration, and I have not had a response as yet as to what it will do. I referred the comments under legislation and, in effect, as an incident of concern, such is the seriousness of the allegations that were made. The point for us around these cases is the intention and motivation of the individual suspect involved, his or her initial actions and how they manifest themselves in his or her interactions - in effect, the suspect's determination to get hold of material, be it firearms, drugs or other material.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Commissioner stated at the justice committee that controlled delivery is very sensitive and important policing methodology. When a controlled delivery is undertaken and when there is a bail application that might arise flowing from matters that took place where there is a controlled delivery, is there a standard, procedure or instruction for how An Garda Síochána deals with that bail application where a controlled delivery has taken place?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
No, there is not. Bail applications are related to the risk that the person charged will turn up or not turn up. There is a whole range of issues in relation to that. Regarding the controlled deliveries, the Deputy is absolutely right. It is an international policing tactic. To answer his question on entrapment, our greatest use of controlled deliveries, which is common to most police forces, is around drugs. To give a straightforward example, if someone is importing drugs into the country and the drugs come into the country, they have started that themselves. They started that whole plan themselves. If we intercept them as they come into the country and we then continue the delivery, as in An Garda Síochána then delivers the drugs to someone, that is not entrapment; that is a controlled delivery. However, if we were to encourage someone or to supply the drugs originally to them and they were to import them into the country, that is obviously entrapment. That is something we do not do. There is clear case law on controlled deliveries. We have had many cases that have been through the courts and been through contested trials. Controlled deliveries is a well-proven tactic. In all cases involving this, we will have full disclosure to the DPP. All our actions right from the start of a controlled delivery would be fully explained to the DPP in very detailed files. There would often be meetings with representatives of the DPP's office, and they make the directions in respect of the charges relating to the controlled deliveries. It is the exact same for firearms and drugs. In firearms, there is significantly more risk for us around that. All the units involved in that are highly trained. We put a lot of time into the planning of those, including risk assessments and deciding whether we will do them or not. We look at the risk to the public, the risk to members of An Garda Síochána and the risks to the people involved in the importation or controlled delivery themselves. There are many factors in those. Many hours of planning go into those operations. There are often dozens of specially trained gardaí involved in those operations.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In the experience of the Commissioner or deputy commissioner, when a controlled delivery has taken place, can those matters be disclosed to the court in the context of a bail application? Have controlled deliveries been disclosed to courts in the context of bail applications?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
In my experience, the detail of a controlled delivery would often come out. Obviously if there is a full hearing or a contested trial, all that detail will come out. It would be unusual for it to come out with regard to bail. A bail application is usually related to the risk that the person will not show at the next appearance if they are granted bail. The general detail of the case obviously comes up in bail hearings. It is generally around what the charges are and the seriousness of the charges. That is usually what the bail application concentrates on. It would be unusual to go into a lot of granular detail around that for bail because that is not the issue. The issue is whether there is risk of flight, the seriousness of the offence, etc. There is a whole raft of things considered in bail applications. There is legislation around this. There are the various Bail Acts. Like I said, usually the granular detail would not come out in that. That would come out-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It would be safe to say that if it was germane to the application or if there was an obligation on An Garda Síochána in respect of its obligations to the courts to disclose matters relating to controlled delivery in the context of the bail application, it would either be put before the court if it was germane or if there was an obligation that the Garda would inform the court about it.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
Yes. I would not disagree with that. When anyone is held in custody, it is a serious situation. With regard to a garda who is making the application for bail, these are lengthy cross-examinations. Multiple factors can be brought to the fore in those. We usually have very experienced gardaí involved in this, and, in most of these bigger cases, the drugs and organised crime bureau. In many of the cases, the reality of how these work is people go into custody initially, they bring cases to the High Court, High Court bail applications are made, and they are subsequently granted bail for a whole range of charges. That could be everything from murder right down to firearms and drugs. People are granted bail subject to strict conditions. That is the reality of the situation around the trial process.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the deputy commissioner. I had not intended for this to be as long as it is. I have one other question that I will put to the Commissioner, which relates to Garda juvenile diversion programmes. No Minister has ever issued regulations under the Act to say that certain offences are exempted from being considered for inclusion in Garda juvenile diversion programmes, for example, murder or a very serious sexual offence. The Commissioner probably cannot advise on policy, but in respect of how the juvenile diversion programme has operated, does he have a view as to whether offences perhaps should be excluded from consideration for the programme?
Mr. Drew Harris:
The Deputy set out some of the very serious matters in which I think there is no value in the juvenile liaison programme engaging because the offences are of such seriousness that they should be before a court. For offences around homicide, rape, very serious assault, etc., the diversion is unlikely to meet the requirements. Our legislation and the legislation that set this up is expansive in terms of the scheme should be available to young people and available in its fullest sense. The regulations are very limited to just the most serious matters.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The deputy commissioner might be answering my final question. Do we need more CCTV in Dublin? It seems to me, based on the figures supplied by the witnesses’ office, that the numbers of CCTV cameras in Dublin are exceptionally low compared with other cities across Europe.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is nearly 11 a.m. now. I propose that we break for ten to 15 minutes and then resume.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses for being here. I appreciate the opportunity to meet them and discuss these issues. As the conversation has evolved, I am going to take up some of the points that have been raised already and try to go through some of them in a little more detail, if we can. Regarding Deputy Connolly's point on cash stocks, how much in total is that?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Would Dr. Coxon have an approximate figure?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does that date back a specific period of time?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is cash in hand that is in punts?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I understand. I would appreciate it if Dr. Coxon would get back to us with the specific figure. That would be good.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Regarding non-public duty events, we have covered in general what overall outstanding fees are left. Do they accrue interest or penalties or is there any sort of consequence for contractors not paying some of those fees?
Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:
No, and that is being looked at as part of the review as regards what penalties could be applied. We are limited by what the legislation allows and, as the Commissioner has alluded, the wish of An Garda Síochána to continue to have constructive working relationships with people.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Are there trends in specific contractors being outstanding year on year? Are the costs debated?
Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:
The cost debate takes place separate to what we do in finance. That is a local, devolved matter. When the invoice is raised, that is when finance takes a hand in the process. There would be full compliance thereafter. Regarding trends, one could not say that there is any meaningful trend. There are people who have paid fully within weeks, there are people who have not paid until prompted and there are people who have not paid at all. As the figures set out, we have gone after people who have not paid and we are in that process with many of the people involved. To give context, we are talking about 300 lines-----
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Three hundred?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We are looking at figures like €700,000 in 2024 and €420,000 in 2023. It seems to be quite a consistent and persistent issue and probably why the review has come out. Would some of those contractors be doing annual national events and if they did not pay in 2023, did An Garda Síochána still go back and provide the service in 2024?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There was €420,000 in 2022 as well, so there definitely are consistent figures there.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Who covers the personnel costs when these funds are outstanding? Where does that money come from?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Surely if resources are being used to provide security and address safety issues and costs are being incurred, payment for them is being taken from somewhere else.
Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:
In the round, yes. It has to be looked at in the context that we are probably incurring about €8 million or €9 million a year and we are getting the vast bulk of that money back, albeit there is €2.6 million outstanding, but most of that is related to the past 24 or 48 months and we are in the process of getting that money back. The State will not be exposed to this in any meaningful way, but there will be some exposure.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This week, we got an answer to a parliamentary question from the Minister for justice where we saw a budget allocation for budget 2025 of €100 million for IT equipment, specifically body-worn cameras. Given that we have had significant issues in various Departments regarding IT contractors and suppliers, will Ms Toale provide an update on how that budget line is progressing and when we might see the implementation of that?
Ms Siobhán Toale:
I would be delighted to do so, Deputy. We have a very ambitious data and technology vision and strategy. It is published externally. In order to deliver on this vision and strategy regarding third-party services, we needed to secure the services of various third parties over many years. I will give a sense of the scale of it, which might be helpful. We have about 1,000 resources overall assigned to that function. More than 700 of them are our own and employed by An Garda Síochána and the rest are services delivered by third parties. Some of those third parties deliver specialist skills that we could not possibly aspire to in our roles and some of them provide volume and capacity services, particularly around maintaining policing systems. As we hire, which we are doing, in terms of area specialist skills, we will see a reduction in that over time. It will not be entirely eliminated because we could not rise to some of those specialisations on an ongoing basis in An Garda Síochána. I hope that answers the Deputy's question.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Specifically regarding the IT piece for body-worn cameras, to what extent is that project part of the €100 million and how is that progressing?
Ms Siobhán Toale:
Regarding IT investment and body-worn cameras, we are very much at a prototype and small scale. A very small amount of resources is dedicated to prototype, obviously assisted by third-party providers. We have yet to figure out, with the assistance of the Deputies, how we would scale up to body-worn cameras, what scale of investment would be required over time and how that would link to things like digital evidence management.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
It is too early days to say. I know what the Deputy is getting at. I am happy to share further as we go along on the journey. I want to mention three things. The network has to be upgraded, so there is work ongoing with the OPW. It is not as straightforward as the Deputy might think. The cameras align to a back-end product, the evidence-management system, which is really important and not straightforward. Then, of course, we have the cameras themselves. It is an ecosystem and I know Deputy Commissioner Kelly has done a ton of work on this. The next phase is to bring together all the pieces that are required for procurement. We can buy most of it together as an ecosystem. We are not close to making a determination on that. We have to go through a formal tendering process. That will take some months but it is the next stage.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Maybe it is not relatable to similar projects by other Departments where the internal competency might not be there on a very specialised area of interest. Given that this is a new venture in Ireland, is it being looked at in partnership with colleagues in other countries that have this experience? How is that expertise being galvanised?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is really interesting. I thank the deputy commissioner.
I have one other question, if I have time, concerning the Garda Reserve programme. My colleagues might not share my line here, but I see underspending as being just as problematic as overspending at times. I am curious as there seems to be a significant underspend in respect of the Garda Reserve programme. I would like some reflections on the status of the programme. Are there structural concerns with regard to participant recruitment and intake? I refer to an overall health check in this regard.
Ms Siobhán Toale:
As the Deputy knows, we have been under significant pressure with the Garda trainees to get our intakes up and release capacity into the organisation. We have, therefore, prioritised Garda trainees, potentially at the expense of the Garda Reserve. We have a Garda Reserve pilot under way now. There are 20 people engaged in a programme with the Garda College. We hope to bring in at least one more intake before Christmas, maybe of 70 or 80 people. We will then establish a routine and a rhythm. We are considering some of the innovations and improvements we were able to bring to the Garda training programme to the Garda Reserve programme, so we are now on this path and it is a very important focus for us. We are committed to the numbers in the programme for Government and to have approximately 2,000 members of the Garda Reserve. As the Commissioner said, we see them as a very valuable part of our entire ecosystem and community.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Turning to the last question that Deputy Connolly raised with regards to domestic violence, I thought the contribution about a CPD module coming in for Garda members was very interesting. I assume that is also going to be part of the formation process for new recruits. Who was involved in the development of this module? Was it developed internally or were other stakeholders involved?
Ms Siobhán Toale:
As the Deputy knows, we have a great Garda College and it does a great job. Our CPD programme was on ice for a couple of years, with Covid, etc. The college has consulted widely internally. I am not sure about external partners. Perhaps one of the other witnesses could comment. The Garda College put this programme together and it will be available to all Garda members. As I said, it is a three-day programme. A very comprehensive training programme of 36 weeks is in place for trainees, with two slots of 12 weeks in the college, and this aspect is also addressed during that time. I happened to have a conversation with the chief superintendent who runs the college the other day and there is very much a focus on this area of training.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Ms Toale.
Mr. Drew Harris:
I will briefly add that the student training is accredited by the University of Limerick because it is a BA in applied policing. The Garda Inspectorate report from last October commented on that training and stated a desire to see more face-to-face training around trauma awareness. This was about building skills to fill out the risk assessment procedure. It is being examined at present.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Deputy Farrelly and the Commissioner. I call Deputy Dolan.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Fáiltím roimh na finnéithe. I thank the members of An Garda Síochána for their service to the people of Ireland and to the country. My uncle was a superintendent in Tallaght. My other uncle was a sergeant in Galway. I know from my own family that we have a huge appreciation for the work and service that all the members of An Garda Síochána give to the country. I ask them to keep doing what they are doing and to do it the best of their abilities because many millions of Irish people depend on them to keep them safe. As always, there are the small few who try to disrupt that. We appreciate the work they are doing.
I will run through a few questions and I do appreciate the witnesses' transparency on them. I will be a bit parochial, but there is a Garda station in Monivea, the lovely village I come from in County Galway, and right there as well is an old house that was previously lived in. I have no doubt that this situation is replicated right across the country. Do the witnesses know how many vacant Garda station residences there are? Are any attempts being made to encourage young gardaí to move into these residences and make them their homes? I ask this because, from what I have seen, this was the most effective form of community policing.
Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:
In relation to the estates, the houses in question are the property of the OPW and not An Garda Síochána. There is ongoing engagement with the OPW and the Department of justice concerning all estate matters, including those houses. Measures are being taken to see how we can best utilise them. There was a programme of closure in 2012 and 2013 and the bulk of these houses were either disposed of or reassigned, etc. We are left with a relatively small number still vacant but not in use.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
While we are talking about rural Garda stations, do they have set opening hours?
Mr. Drew Harris:
It will depend very much on the personnel available in a division. Returning to the Deputy's first question, we recognise the real value if a Garda member moves into the house adjacent to the station. There has been somewhat of a drift away from personnel making this choice, but at the same time, we have seen this happening during my own tenure and it has made a major difference. Gardaí have moved in with their families and it brings that little bit more life.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It gives the garda that connection to the community too.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is okay. My team has done work on purchase order data throughout the country across all State entities and Departments. One interesting thing about An Garda Síochána is that in 2024 more than 80 purchase orders were raised by Accenture to the tune of €30 million. It was one of the force's largest suppliers. Similarly, in the first few months of this year, €5.9 million of purchase orders has already been raised. This information is available publicly on the Garda's website, but why is so much money - this is nothing against Accenture - being paid out to consultants?
Ms Siobhán Toale:
As I explained to the other Deputy, what we are talking about here are resources. If the Deputy does not mind, I will not call them consultants, but third-party resources. They are used to help us to deliver our operational policing needs and our capital programmes. We do have a long and well established relationship with Accenture, which has been obtained through proper public procurement procedures. I just set that out from the off. Accenture helps us in supporting and developing a range of policing systems and also helps us in relation to security matters. As I mentioned previously, we would prefer to have some more resources ourselves but we do not have them. We have certainly found it hard in certain areas to get the sought-after skill sets.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Specifically, what function does Accenture fulfil that the Garda cannot?
Ms Siobhán Toale:
In security-related areas, Accenture provides skills we just could not have, for example, in the area of cybersecurity. We do not have that level of skill set, although it is our intention to grow it. When I mentioned operational policing and building our capital programmes, Accenture provides a capacity service. We do not have the scale of resources to deliver our capital programme and sustain our systems.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On the cybersecurity element, what assurance does An Garda Síochána have over its own cybersecurity and protection?
Ms Siobhán Toale:
We have full assurance and full oversight, right down from the executive and our new board. In relation to cybersecurity, we use Accenture for advice, guidance and strategic thinking. It also provides that added value and delivers certain services to us in that regard, as do other providers. We are committed to achieving the metrics and the guidance in complying with Government matters in relation to cybersecurity and maintaining and continuing to sustain our strong cybersecurity presence.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is perfect. My next topic concerns - the witnesses can tell me if I have this wrong - the fact that €17.5 million was charged to the Garda Vote for Rosslare terminal 7 in 2023, but only €6.6 million was actually spent. What happened there? Does this tend to undermine the accounting side of things or what is the story?
Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:
Regarding Rosslare, as the Comptroller and Auditor General called out in his earlier comments, we have taken direction in relation to the Garda Vote concerning the treatment of Rosslare from the centre, as have several other Votes. The Controller and Auditor General has raised queries in this regard. Turning to the actual moneys, the way to describe it is that €17.5 million in funding was given to us and then the following day the €17.5 million was discharged.
It is in our books and that is a very simplistic accounting treatment.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Was it discharged for that purpose? Was it discharged for the purpose it was given?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is okay. With regard to the stockrooms, and I am aware this topic was hit on previously, does An Garda Síochána keep a live asset register of its stockrooms? What stock controls are in place for the stockrooms? Where there are really high-ticket items or high-value items, is there an annual reconciliation to check those items still there? What controls are in place for that?
Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:
I thank the Deputy for the question. There is a number of stocks, as will be appreciated. There are high-value Garda specific stocks in relation to the armoury. There are ICT stocks and then there are commodity stocks, as we call it. Each of those are managed individually. We do have an issue insofar as we do not have an IT system that is fully what you would expect for a stock system. The migration to the NSSO will bring us an inventory model and, for the first time, An Garda Síochána will have that inventory model, and we will work with the NSSO to build that out. At the moment , however, it is very manual and very Excel based.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
So it is almost on a station-by-station basis, or a division-by-division basis.
Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:
The vast bulk of the stock the Deputy is referring to is held centrally. Deputy Commissioner Coxon spoke about the property and exhibits management systems, PEMS, stores and there will be stock there as well. There is also stock held centrally. The vast bulk of it is held centrally. It would not be held in a typical Garda station.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There have been repeated shortfalls in recruitment targets, particularly for the Garda Reserve and the Garda College. What specific new initiatives are being introduced to attract and retain members? How is An Garda Síochána measuring the impact of these efforts?
Mr. Drew Harris:
I will touch on recruitment first. There is still great interest in joining An Garda Síochána. Ireland is in a full employment situation. I believe the thing that has probably defeated us in recent years is just the speed with which we were dealing with applications and bringing them through. We have entirely reviewed the process from the interview stage and that part of the selection process to when the names come across to us. We then have four items that we have to deal with, which are vetting, medical assessment, the physical competency test, and drug testing. Most recently, we have tried to deal with these in one day. You would have explained the vetting process to people in an open day, plus putting them through the competency test, plus taking the drug test, which in effect is a hair sample measure to see if there has been any drug use, and then explaining the medical process. This is all to try to accelerate the process. Then we select individuals who will be available for the next intake, so there can be a focus upon them. In effect, instead of dealing with everybody as a single widget that is coming down the line at us, we are selecting people who we see are available and who we think we can bring quickly through the process. There are a lot of advances in what is being done.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This is my last question, briefly. The Garda Commissioner mentioned that one of the four areas of criteria to get into the Garda college is a drug test.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What percentage of applicants fail that drug test?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank all the witnesses for coming in today. I only have ten minutes so I might cut a witness off while answering questions. I am just noticing here that An Garda Síochána had a €9.38 million underspend on clothing and accessories, yet we know that gardaí have recently resorted to buying their own surveillance and protective equipment. Has the issue with members purchasing their own equipment been resolved?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is really welcome that we have Deputy Commissioner Shawna Coxon onboard. It is great to have expertise from other jurisdictions. There is no point in us reinventing the wheel when the deputy commissioner is coming with expertise, especially when relating to the body cam procurement. That is really welcome. I do not know how long the deputy commissioner has been here but it is great to have her on board.
I thought it was quite unusual that the Garda spend on CCTV was €29.23 million. In the context of the Garda budget this is quite low. I believe that spending on CCTV and the use of CCTV is probably one of the best weapons for, I would not say combating crime but crime enforcement. I would like the deputy commissioner's take on this, coming from another jurisdiction. Would Dr. Coxon like to see this spending hugely increased? I would. We do not have enough CCTV in the city. I am interested to hear what the deputy commissioner has to say about it from a Canadian perspective.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
The model here is that CCTV cameras are community based. This model is different from other jurisdictions. I actually think it is quite positive because it really is about the community owning and overseeing what that looks like. It looks different depending on the community that you are in. I do think it is very powerful as a tool. As I said earlier to one of the other questions, it is something we would always look at enhancing where we can.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Would Dr. Coxon like to see a move towards more national CCTV? I do not believe the community model works. In my area in Dublin South-Central we have cameras that are run by the council, which seems to own the majority, but there is not a direct feed into the Garda station which might be four doors down. There should be a lot more interoperability between the State, whether it is the council or the Garda, in terms of CCTV in the State. What is the deputy commissioner's view on that?
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
It is worthy of debate. I would not want to comment on the model in terms of what I think is better, mainly because it really does get into what does the community think of surveillance and what does that look and feel like. It will be different depending on who you are and where you are. It is important that those conversations take place. I am concerned about sometimes not having it joined up as well. I have seen that take place. What the Deputy is talking about in bringing certain pieces together is something that could be improved.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On Rosslare terminal 7 and the €27.8 million, it was mentioned that it is just an accountancy trick, but ultimately An Garda Síochána has oversight, or should have oversight, of the breakdown of the expenditure. Will An Garda Síochána be publishing what that €27.8 million is spent on?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
No, in terms of it being in and out, a debit and credit. I understand.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
With capital works, what type of works will be constructed for the use of An Garda Síochána? Is it envisaged there would be some sort of detention centre? What is envisaged?
Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:
The works there are all but completed. They will be completed in October. Basically, there is a specialised multi-building site. One of those buildings is given to the exclusive control of An Garda Síochána for its needs, some of which are immigration and some are connected with Revenue and Garda operations. I would not want to go into too much detail.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does Mr. O'Connor know how many beds are in the detention centre or in the-----
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Would the Garda Commissioner have that detail?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Would the Commissioner be able to provide a note to committee with that detail?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the Commissioner. I am aware that part of this has been covered already in relation to the Minister discovering that the gun used in Carlow was part of the controlled delivery, if that is the phrase-----
Mr. Drew Harris:
I will just clarify that in effect there are two different situations here. The weapon used on 1 June at the shopping centre was a weapon that had been stolen in a burglary. A second weapon has also been recovered, together with an imitation or replica firearm. We do not know the provenance of them, where they were or how those were obtained.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This is for my own clarity on what the Commissioner saying. It is out in the ether that the weapon used was allegedly part of Garda stocks-----
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is that not correct?
Mr. Drew Harris:
That is completely incorrect. The weapon used on 1 June was stolen in a burglary from a neighbour's home. It was a properly held firearm that was a pump action shotgun.
We believe the individual also had possession of another firearm, a shotgun, and a replica firearm. We cannot report yet on how he got hold of the latter two items.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
So none of the items in contention are part of Garda stock?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Obviously, that is contrary to what is out there in the public domain.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is there anything the Commissioner would like to relay to the public today?
Mr. Drew Harris:
This matter has been dealt with transparency, first, with the file submitted to the DPP which was a very complete, fulsome document which describes all that happened in great detail. The DPP then directed charges. Second, subsequent to a report in the media, this matter was referred to Fiosrú which conducted an examination. Beyond that, there was the incident on 1 June and the circumstances around that have been reported to the Minister.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On recruitment and new recruits, this might be one for the Commissioner. Does he have an update on the current background and diversity of the new Garda recruits and does the composition reflect our new communities and the communities those new gardaí serve?
Mr. Drew Harris:
In any of the passing out parades we have, where the people see the new gardaí marching, in and around 10% come from a country of origin other than Ireland. There is diversity and, at times, there is also visible diversity, and that is increasing as well. Moving forward, the real challenge for An Garda Síochána is to promote and encourage greater diversity in our recruitment. That will be essential. In the same way, our position in respect of a community-based policing service, which is well known in the community, puts us in a strong position in respect of that. As time moves on and our population becomes more diverse, we as a policing service will obviously want to be more diverse as well.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
My final question goes back to the holders. There were a lot of holders discussed here but what percentage of our Garda force is armed at this stage?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What percentage is that?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank all the witnesses for coming in here today. I know they all have very busy schedules and I can see by the size of their briefing pack that a lot of work has gone into this. I thank them for coming.
I am from a Garda family. My dad was a superintendent in the Garda and my brother is a Garda as well, for full disclosure. That is just to note that any questions I ask are coming from someone who has a deep interest in the Garda and someone who grew up with and was brought up in that family. I know the efforts, difficulties and stresses that come with that. From my time as a town councillor and county councillor, I have worked brilliantly with the local gardaí, be they the community gardaí, who I work very closely with, all the way through to superintendents and chief superintendents in the area. I thank them for all the work they do and want them to know they are very well catered for. On gardaí in north Kildare, we obviously need a lot more of them. North Kildare has a growing population base and the more gardaí we have, the better. We can see the stresses that are on them.
I have a few questions that cover different areas. How does the Commissioner feel Garda morale is at the moment?
Mr. Drew Harris:
Contrary to a lot of the reporting, I think morale is strong. I point to what the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland said about the organisation and what needed to be done. It talked about transparent promotion processes. They have been implemented. It talked about a new uniform. That has been done. It talked about protective equipment and that has been done. It also talked about the ICT supports that should be available for An Garda Síochána. That is a work in progress and we will never be finished that because ICT keeps moving on but we have done a huge amount to put information into Gardaí members' hands.
In the same period, demands on An Garda Síochána have increased. It is hard work, there is no doubt about that, and we are not at the strength we wish to be. That creates tension.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I know there are difficulties, be it people putting camera phones or cameras in the faces of gardaí. It creates a very different dynamic for gardaí, the view of them and their role in society than what they might have had in previous eras. That brings its own difficulties. I have a theme of questions I will try to run through quickly because we are obviously limited by time.
Does the Commissioner feel there has been a big impact from the 2011 pay agreements at the time? Has there been a knock-on impact on the gardaí who might have signed up since that era, relative to the previous cohort who came in? The theme here is retention.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is that higher for those newer entrants over time?
Mr. Drew Harris:
With the resignations, a proportion lie with those who have less than five years' service. They are those who join and then decide this is not for them. There are those who are later service and have around 20 years' service, have skills and developed skills in the organisation and then go to some other form of employment. Undoubtedly, the impact of pensions is what you hear more than actual pay.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That was my next question. Does the Commissioner believe the pension is good enough for those people?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Commissioner feels that is an issue because it is something I pick up on, more from colleagues and friends than anything else. On that basis, what more does he think we can do to recruit more gardaí?
Mr. Drew Harris:
There is still great interest in joining An Garda Síochána. We need to do a better job of talking about career progression, specialisation, the variety of the work and how meaningful the work is. We should talk about the difficulties but also the rewards of undertaking a career in An Garda Síochána. We are in a very competitive marketplace, and as I have set out already, we need to be very slick around our recruitment process and attracting the right talent.
Standing in Templemore, the vast majority of the students I see have third level education, have had good jobs and have then decided to come to An Garda Síochána. We get a high calibre of student and we want to maintain that as well.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On the issue of retention, do the increments stop after 18 years? Is that right?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Do we feel that is something there should be movement on?
Mr. Drew Harris:
There is a fact that the increments plateau at a certain point. It takes quite a while, perhaps in comparison with other jurisdictions, to work your way up through the increments. When somebody gets to seven or eight years' service as a garda, they are very experienced and competent and yet they are still waiting on increments to come in the following years. People see that as being unfair. That also stretches into the sergeant rank as well. It takes a long time to progress up through the increments. If somebody has been a sergeant for three or four years, they are the rounded product then but they are still waiting for increments to accrue. I have a lot of sympathy for the unfairness people perceive in that.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On the topic of retention with senior management, was there a question mark around excess tax for senior management? Has that issue been resolved? This was where people were going for the next rank, potentially for the Commissioner's own role in the future, and it was not a good or sensible thing for them to do financially.
Mr. Drew Harris:
It is a particular issue for more senior ranks like the Commissioner, assistant commissioner, deputy commissioner and chief superintendent as it stretches down. This is an impact felt across the public sector and into other sectors. What makes it particularly acute for An Garda Síochána is that, in the last ten years of service, Garda members pick up double accrual and then finish at 62.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It has not been resolved. It is still the same issue.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We have to try to resolve that. That is interesting.
I turn to the abatements for events. My dataset was the superintendent in north County Kildare. I know what it takes for Oxegen. I know what it took back in the day for the Ryder Cup. It was a busy area, which I know first hand. On the abatements and the different pricings, is any core group or type of event benefiting more than others? I do not want to use that word, but I am referring to events that were seen as more of a trend.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Would it be one commercial entity or different promoters of events? Is it one entity dragging its heels?
Mr. Drew Harris:
There are no trends, but I would be conscious of trends. We are working through the report and dealing with the recommendations. There is an aspect where we are not entirely powerless in this. If we decide on the basis of non-payment in previous years that we cannot support this, then it is nigh on impossible for them to receive a safety certificate.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Garda can pull-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will touch on a couple of issues. There is the €45 hourly charge. What is the rough cost? Is there an identified cost that An Garda has? Is €45 a rough cost for a garda for an hour? Is that a mix of a garda and a sergeant?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I notice that the State has bought a new aircraft for the Garda. Is that correct?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
How big is it? How many people can it hold and how far can it go? Is it for charter flights abroad or for visiting other countries?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Purely surveillance. It is just for internal use in our country.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is it exactly. What size is it? How many people can fit in it?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I presume the helicopters are for the usual operations. They do great work. One of my friends actually flies it around Dublin. That is why I was curious about the plane.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
The helicopter has a crew of three and we can put additional people in it. It is larger, so I believe it can hold up to another five people. The aircraft has capacity for approximately eight people, but that is not primarily what it is for. It will give us capacity to move people around the country if we need to. It is not for going abroad. It is-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is for drugs and for patrolling-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is for internal movement around the country.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Was that done in consultation with the Air Corps?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
Yes. We had a large team working on this. All of our aircraft are flown by the Air Corps and supported by An Garda Síochána. We have dedicated people assigned to us from the Air Corps who work with us full time. We have had a good relationship with the Air Corps for the past 25 years. We have joint teams for all purchases and everything to do with aircraft. For these, we sent teams to Germany, Italy and Canada at all the procurement stages with regard to the technical specifications and everything. They have to be signed off for airworthiness and so on by the military. There is a long process with that.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses for answering every question.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I welcome the Garda Commissioner and all the other witnesses. Gardaí play a vital role in all our communities, and I thank them for that. I have a few questions. I previously brought to the Garda Commissioner's attention the JPCs that were still not up and running around the country. They worked very well for councils and communities coming together in every area. What is happening with them?
Mr. Drew Harris:
With the arrival of the new legislation on 2 April, the JPC system has been set aside. The last meetings were in May 2024. There will be local community safety partnerships, where An Garda Síochána will meet others to deal with community safety, antisocial behaviour and quality-of-life issues.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When are they happening?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The JPCs stopped a year ago and the other ones are not up and running yet. One was supposed to replace the other.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
With the new structure, it is the Government putting them together. I know they are starting but it depends on where you are. I agree with the Deputy that there has been a gap, and we recognise that is a challenge. We are not in control of when they are being staged but we are looking forward to participating in them.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is important that communities, councillors and gardaí are on board together. It is a good communication system in each county, and I say "Well done" for all the work on the JPCs.
In 2023, An Garda Síochána spent €2.9 million on a construction project for a new station to be built in Bailieborough. The expected spend for the lifetime was supposed to be €10.77 million. Works were supposed to be completed in 2024 and 2025. Have those works been completed and is that station operational?
Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:
All of our buildings are processed by the OPW, so there is ongoing engagement on Bailieborough. As recently as two weeks ago, we had a case call on Bailieborough and the progress being made. It is slower than expected, but we are still hopeful that the vast bulk of the works will be concluded by the end of the year.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is there still €7 million in the pot for that?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is there enough to finish it?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I note that An Garda Síochána took in €31.39 million in fixed-notice charge receipts in 2023. That is quite a bit. Is that what was taken in for people speeding on the roads?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have an issue with that. Sometimes, I see the vans. A company has been hired. I think GoSafe is the company that does it. I have an issue, in that, the vans are parked in the most obscure places where they are trying to get people who are just doing 30 or 40 mph. If this is supposed to be "go safe", is it not about people speeding in a 100 km/h zone or something like that as opposed to people who are driving at a slow rate anyway? Is it just a method of getting resources into An Garda Síochána?
Mr. Drew Harris:
We would rather we never caught anybody for speeding, because then people would be complying with the speed limits. The speed limits are there for safety. I know there is some contention about these vans being situated in 50 km/h speed limit zones. However, if one exceeds the 50 km/h speed limit, the chances of a serious or fatal collision really ramp up.
That is why they are there.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Why are they in a 50 km/h zone in preference to a 120 km/h zone?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I know but my issue is that these speed vans are in places where traffic is travelling at a slow rate. It is never on the motorway.
Mr. Drew Harris:
The motorways are our safest roads. There is an analysis of where the speed vans should be and the detections they make. They are also there to be preventative, to be seen and to adjust driver behaviour. We have also invested in static cameras and average speed cameras. We want to bring the overall speed down in line with the speed limits. That is essential for road user safety.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is okay. I thank the Commissioner. How much was paid for that GoSafe service in 2024?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is up significantly from 2022 and 2023. In 2023, it was only €7.9 million. Why was there an additional cost there?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There were additional hours to get more money in.
Mr. Drew Harris:
There were additional hours to improve road safety. This is not a money-making exercise. It is about trying to dampen down speeds on the roads. As I have said, I would rather if we did not catch anybody. There is a trend with static cameras. The number of detections diminishes over the month. It is the same with the average speed cameras.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is fine.
With regard to the ongoing conflict in Palestine, the Commissioner will be aware of media reports of certain civilian airlines carrying weapons of war or components bound for Israel in support of the genocide of the people of Gaza. My understanding is that it is illegal to do this without the permission of the Minister for Transport and so it effectively would amount to illegal arms trafficking through Ireland. Does An Garda Síochána have any concerns that arms are being routinely smuggled through sovereign airspace?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Garda has never checked any of these airlines to see?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will ask about the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. This has been going on for 51 years. The Garda has not been able to release documents for some reason. Is that an issue relating to funding or is something else going on that the Garda has not been able to release those documents? The Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland is also now on the job trying to get those documents. Why have they not been released at this stage, 51 years after 34 died on 17 May 1974 in the Monaghan and Dublin bombings? No documents have been released. I believe the Garda still has six boxes of relevant material that has not been released. Is it an issue of funding or why has that not happened? Has the Minister for justice indicated to An Garda Síochána that he wants these files released? What is the issue there? Why have they not been released?
Mr. Drew Harris:
I will have to report back to the committee in respect of this. Obviously, a police ombudsman investigation in Belfast is in a different jurisdiction and so we would deal with the Department of justice, as the Deputy has alluded to. I will come back with the up-to-date position. One can be assured that An Garda Síochána stands ready to assist any of these inquiries. I have put in resources to make sure we can deal with the various requests made of us.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There was a mutual assistance agreement eight years ago but the documents still have not been produced. Am I correct in saying that?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will come back in on the three minutes. I am sorry; I had a few more questions written down. It is okay, I will come back in. I thank the Garda Commissioner.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank all of our witnesses for being here today. I will touch on a point raised by the previous speaker with regard to joint policing committees. The Commissioner might be aware that joint policing committees continue to meet in Dublin city on the basis that the Minister indicated that they could continue to do so on a transitional basis while CSPs were being established. That is the case.
Mr. Drew Harris:
Yes. We are entirely supportive of that. I am on record speaking about the value of the JPCs. Any JPC I have attended has been of great value. Local elected representatives are able to raise live issues directly. That is incredibly important for local accountability and gardaí being seen to be responding effectively to local issues.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Statistics are often presented at those meetings. Presentations are also made with regard to policing matters and questions that have been lodged in advance are answered. Is it the Commissioner's view that this should continue to happen where those statutory meetings are held?
Mr. Drew Harris:
I believe they have value at a local level. They should be dealing with a range of issues including performance and what is going on. What is also very important is feedback from the community as to ongoing or arising issues and what members of An Garda Síochána might do about them. I hope-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The local policing forums that sat under the joint policing committees essentially provided intelligence and input as regards those local issues. I will raise an issue of concern. The next meeting of the Dublin city north-west area joint policing committee is to be held on 30 June. The chairperson of that committee has been informed that An Garda Síochána will not answer strategic questions or make presentations on statistics. That is disappointing. I do not expect the Commissioner to be aware of that but I ask him to reflect on it and to go back to the appropriate two divisions to deal with the issue. While we are waiting for the CSPs, particularly in areas like Ballymun and Finglas that have significant issues even though there is good collaboration across different community groups, it is important that An Garda Síochána is not seen to be unco-operative, which I have to say it never has been. I just wanted to flag that.
I will turn to the issue of cash on hand or the storage of cash. How much cash is held in storage around the country?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That cash would obviously take multiple forms but ultimately it will be legitimate Central Bank-issued cash that has been verified and all of the rest of it. There might also be forged cash and so on. Does An Garda Síochána differentiate the cash in that way?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The cash that is not forged or fake in any way is legitimate cash An Garda Síochána has on hand.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
How is that accounted for in the Garda accounts?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It does not sit within the audited accounts.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does the deputy commissioner see the concern there?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We have dealt with many organisations here where the cash retained by the organisation should have been accounted for and the details made available to the Committee of Public Accounts if that body was accountable to it. It is really concerning that, when I ask what cash An Garda Síochána has on hand in this system, those details cannot be provided and that An Garda Síochána has not had to account for it anywhere before it was asked that question.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is correct.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Agreed. Ultimately, I know, that cash is lodged to the Exchequer at the end of court proceedings. Very substantial figures have been transferred by the Garda National Drugs and Organised Crime Bureau. I think I saw a figure of €30 million. Is that correct?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is there anybody within An Garda Síochána at this moment who knows how much cash is in storage?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Deputy Commissioner Coxon is unable to provide that figure, however.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does the deputy commissioner know the scale of it? I am not asking her to be specific.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will Dr. Coxon talk about what controls are in place in that regard?
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
Sure. The money goes into a physical property and exhibits management, PEM, system. Everything is accounted for in the way that all our evidence is accounted for. We have a manager who oversees all our property. As I said, it is physical property that we have to take into account. It is tracked in that way and held as evidence in the same way that other evidence is held.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What about security arrangements? When audits were done in 2014 and subsequently years later, there were some concerns with regard to security and storage. Those concerns did not relate specifically to cash but were general concerns. I am taken aback that an organisation could come before the committee and state it has many millions of euro in cash in storage but the relevant figure is not readily available. I am equally taken aback that no document outlining it is publicly available.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does Dr. Coxon accept it is a significant risk to the organisation and to the Exchequer?
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
I do not have the figure in front of me. We have put a lot of work into our PEM system. Whether we are talking about money or bullion or anything else, the systems and controls that are in place are quite substantial. That is particularly relevant to what the Deputy referred in respect of ten years ago, and I accept that.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Do those systems and controls reach the same standard as would apply if the money were in storage in a bank?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am being careful because I do not want to ask about the details of it for obvious reasons, as the deputy commissioner said. Can the Garda satisfy the risk of the storage of that cash?
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
Yes. As I said, we have put a lot of work into our PEM system. We have a physical system and an IT system. The governance in place is quite substantial if one looks at what we have done with our policies and procedures. In addition, we have done audit work so that we know exactly what we have where. The other thing I want to say is that the figure changes every day. That is why it would have been helpful to know-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On the people who have access to those facilities, are there controls in place?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There were reports of items being checked out for long periods of time. I presume that does not apply to cash.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That related to other items.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is €40 million that-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is a very significant sum to be held not electronically or in a bank but in cash notes. There is probably a job of work for the committee in that regard and we will come back to the witnesses on that. The security of that, and us being satisfied as to that security, is significant. I do not think there is another organisation in the State, although I accept the Garda is different, that would have €40 million in bank notes and for which the Committee of Public Accounts would not have a good line of sight on the security measures and the steps that are in place to protect the money.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Mr. Harris will understand that the risk of potential fraud for a bank note is entirely different than the risk in respect of illegal drugs or a firearm. Cash is very transferable. It is legal tender.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Bank notes pose a significant threat and there is over €40 million on hand. I have a real concern that that is not accounted for in the appropriate accounts or elsewhere.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Legally, however, it is money that will come to the public.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is all the more reason this committee should have confidence that it is being managed.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
If Apple owed us many millions, we would want it in an escrow account. The Comptroller and Auditor General would want to know it was being invested correctly and so on. There is a much bigger piece of work for the Department of justice, but also for the public accounts committee, to examine how almost €40 million of potentially public money is being stored.
Mr. Drew Harris:
Deputy Commissioner Coxon has led on a lot of this work already. We are in a good position. We would be entirely open to examination on this. We have spent a lot of time with our Policing Authority, which has held us to account around our PEM system. It is not as if this has been without scrutiny.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I accept that.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I accept the Commissioner's bona fides. The transparency piece is the important part.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
To follow up on that point, it would be useful if the Commissioner could furnish the committee with a note on that issue. Perhaps he could also give some details of any Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, investigations. There was the example of 2 kg of cannabis having gone missing from a Garda station in Carlow. If there are any current or previous investigations carried out by GSOC in respect of the cash held within Garda storage, the Commissioner might let the committee know.
On the non-public duty events, how was the €45 flat rate arrived at?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When did that flat rate come in?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does that take into consideration the likes of overtime and weekend allowances or what is the-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Some weekend events, perhaps concerts, happen over multiple days. Does that cost cover accommodation or food? Does the Garda provide food in such instances?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
If there were an instance where accommodation was needed overnight, who picks up that tab?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Commissioner might have a look at that and come back to us with a note. When food is supplied to gardaí at events, who picks up that cost?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Garda picks up the cost of supplying food and beverages to gardaí at these-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Commissioner might provide a note to the committee on the level over the past five years and the cost of recompense for providing Garda cover at these events. That would be useful. He could also supply information on accommodation, if it has been provided.
On the top ten largest for-profit events where policing was provided, could a note be provided to the committee as to whether there was an abatement attached to it, what the overall cost was and whether it has been paid. If that could be provided for each of the past five years, I think that would also be useful.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I know this is an issue that has been before the Committee of Public Accounts over a number of years, and that is the financial mismanagement at the Garda College, Templemore. I know there was a GSOC investigation. Can you give us the current status of that investigation?
Ms Siobhán Toale:
I am very pleased to say all matters have been resolved and closed with regard to that, except one outstanding item regarding the closing of the sports field account. There is a GSOC or Fiosrú inquiry ongoing with regard to that. A liquidator was appointed last year and we are just waiting for that to conclude, but all matters are in hand and all matters are addressed. I am very confident in that regard.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
All issues were subject to that GSOC investigation launched in, I think, June 2017.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Did that investigation by GSOC close in 2023?
Ms Siobhán Toale:
There is one outstanding matter with regard to GSOC. We do not believe there are any items of concern in it. We are just waiting to see if something will be referred through the DPP but all items have been addressed and, indeed, the previous holder of my role chairs a committee to oversee it and will do so until that final matter is outstanding. I am very confident in that regard.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That GSOC investigation was ongoing for six years up until 2023. Why did that take so long?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I know there were a number of gardaí tied into that investigation over that time. Has a costing been carried out with regard to the carrying out of that investigation?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
A file was given over to the DPP back in 2023. I think it was September 2023. That is nearly two years ago. Has the DPP decided to pursue charges stemming from that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Still waiting. On the file that was submitted to the DPP, did you have sight of that file?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Okay. Do we have any indication that the file sent to the DPP - and I am being very careful here to avoid straying into areas - involved an individual or individuals?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
As part of the GSOC investigation, have any internal disciplinary measures been carried out by the Garda?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Not at this stage. With regard to the GSOC investigation, can I ask what was being looked at? There was a lot of talk at previous committee hearings and evidence given with regard to items such as the Cabra account, and obviously the issues regarding the college itself. On the Cabra account, I think the reference made at that point was specific to EU funding that had been unaccounted for. Would I be correct in stating that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
One of your predecessors, Commissioner O'Sullivan, had stated in evidence here before the committee that the Cabra account, or balances in the account at that point of concern, had ranged from between €5,000 to €90,000. She did not give an overall figure as to how much was contained in that account. Would we have any knowledge of that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Could you provide a note on that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is a considerable figure. In previous hearings, at the time the Committee of Public Accounts had to essentially park its investigation into this because of concerns and the launching of the GSOC investigation. Now that GSOC has finished, it has given us an opportunity to look at this. On that particular account, has it been established whether all of the money going in and out of that account was solely EU funds, or has that been established?
Mr. Drew Harris:
I am sorry. While it is still with the DPP, we consider that as still being an open investigation. The DPP, at any time, could go back to GSOC, as we would ourselves, to ask further questions and have further inquiries conducted. We do not feel this has reached a conclusion where we can do further examination.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Fair enough. The EU's anti-fraud office, OLAF, had also launched an investigation. Do you have any information on the current status of that investigation?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Okay. You might furnish the committee with a note on whether there is ongoing with the Garda or if that investigation has concluded.
I have a couple of other issues I want to flag with regard to drugs. An issue that has become very prevalent in every town and village across the State is the issue of nitrous oxide, which to me is hugely concerning. There is evidence I have seen in my own community where kids as young as 12 years of age are taking nitrous oxide. I know there are issues there with regard to what gardaí can and cannot do. From my ongoing engagement with gardaí, who it has to be said do brilliant work in Wicklow, they have expressed concerns about the legal status of nitrous oxide and their inability to seize it. The providers of this very dangerous substance are openly and actively selling this online and are targeting, in my mind, certain demographics. It is predominantly aimed younger people, and I have concerns. I have a specific question. Different pieces of legislation have been brought forward by the Opposition. Have you concerns about nitrous oxide? Do you think specific legislation is required to enable the Garda to tackle this dangerous substance? There is obviously a catering necessity for it but it is being used incorrectly.
Mr. Drew Harris:
I might turn to Deputy Commissioner Kelly in a moment. Our concern about any of these is that they are a precursor. They are dangerous in themselves but they are also a precursor into harder drugs as well. This is, in effect, a gateway which opens young people up to the abuse of substances. That is why it is so dangerous. Second, children, as they are, are developing, and the introduction of any of these elements or chemicals can have a really detrimental and disproportionate impact on them, their development and, indeed, their mental health. It is of concern. I might turn to Deputy Commissioner Kelly in respect of the legislation.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
Thanks, Commissioner. Yes, we absolutely share your concerns around this, Chair. We actually have made significant seizures of nitrous oxide in large amounts. One of the concerning things for us was that, a couple of years ago, we targeted a transnational organised crime group involved in cocaine.
Connected to that activity, we saw the group was also importing and supplying large amounts of nitrous oxide, particularly the large canisters. Organised crime groups will look anywhere they can to make money and are always trying to diversify. That is no doubt the situation with nitrous oxide.
The Cathaoirleach correctly identified that we have a lacuna in legislation in respect of nitrous oxide. As he noted, the problem is there is an absolutely legitimate use for it, particularly in catering, which is being abused. My colleagues in the Garda National Drugs and Organised Crime Bureau sit on a number of interdepartmental groups, including one under the Department of Health, at which this issue has been raised. There are various proposals for what direction we should go on this. It is a very difficult situation for our people on the front line in particular. It is hugely concerning that young people are not aware of the damage this substance can do, as shown by lots of medical surveys.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is a need for specific legislation to enable the Garda to deal with it.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I appreciate that. Deputy Ardagh raised the issue of CCTV cameras and what she correctly described as the low figure in terms of provision. In my home town of Bray, there is an outdated analogue CCTV system. The superintendent has told me numerous times that he has put in a funding application to the Department to have it upgraded to a digital system. He has hit a brick well with those requests. I am hearing that similar requests have come in from a number of areas. I am not sure whether those applications go into the Department of justice or the Department of public expenditure. How many such applications for an upgrade to CCTV systems are currently in process? I am told the coverage and quality the Garda can get on those cameras is hit and miss. It is deeply concerning. Is there any information on those applications, including where they go to and so on?
Mr. Drew Harris:
I can get back to the Cathaoirleach on his specific question regarding Bray. On the overall issue, I want to assure the committee. In the city centre, for instance, CCTV is piped into Store Street and Pearse Street and it is watched and used very successfully to track down suspects and offenders. I have seen the particular system in Bray and it probably is on its last legs. I will inquire about it.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the Commissioner. I am aware that CCTV cameras do not replace the need for boots on the ground. I know he appreciates that as well.
I am conscious of the time pressure Mr. Harris is under. Would he be open to addressing some short supplementary questions members may have?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will Mr. Harris repeat that number please?
Mr. Drew Harris:
The number is 2,114.
In respect of Rosslare, what has developed there, in effect, is a holding cell. People will only be kept there if they are to be returned on the next sailing. If an individual is to be detained, he or she will be taken to the Garda station in Wexford.
We have had a good discussion about road safety. I acknowledge our recently deceased colleague Garda Kevin Flatley, who was killed in the execution of his duty enforcing roads legislation.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Absolutely. Is the Commissioner okay for time if members have supplementary questions? We are looking at another 25 minutes or so.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will allow approximately three minutes per member, starting with Deputy McGrath.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have a couple of quick questions and I ask that the answers to them be brief. Regarding recruitment and trying to build up the numbers, I was contacted by someone who had to resign from the force for family reasons but is now seeking reinstatement. The individual's application has been before Garda management for several months. The person believes the application is bundled together with those of three or four other people seeking to come back to the force. Why are these applications taking so long to process? We are talking about fully trained gardaí and it is important to get them back operational as soon as possible.
Ms Siobhán Toale:
I fully agree with the Deputy's point. We are working hard to get gardaí back. I cannot give him a precise answer on the particular individual he mentioned but I certainly will look at all the applications in the pipeline, if that is helpful. The time it takes to process an application depends how long people have been out, what level of training they had when they left and whether more security vetting is required if they have been abroad. There is a range of factors that have to be put through the machine. There might, for example, be a need for a medical. I wish I could be more precise.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is important to try to speed up the process as much as possible. There may be issues to resolve but these people are trained and qualified. In the case I mentioned, the individual's application seems to be stuck in a bundle with three or four other applications.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I appreciate it. On the CCTV issue the Cathaoirleach raised, the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) Act 2023 cleaned up some of the issues with data protection and so on. The local authorities have repeatedly said they do not have the budgets to install CCTV, so it appears the money has to come from either An Garda Síochána or the Department of justice. Is any provision being made in the budget for the roll-out of additional CCTV systems around the country? They are a critical tool for gardaí in carrying out their duties.
Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:
A small amount of funding is available within the Department of justice for community-based CCTV cameras. There is also a small amount of funding available in our budget for Garda-owned CCTV cameras. We have put in an application under the NDP for a significant increase in funding and we await a decision on that.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is welcome. I have time for a final question. We have seen high-profile cases where members of the force have been suspended while an investigation is ongoing. I do not want to go into individual cases other than to mention the instance involving the bicycle. In that case, the suspension was apparently for up to four years. Has the system been reformed such that investigations can proceed at a quicker pace? I presume members are on pay while they are suspended in these cases, which means there is a public finance issue. It is important that they are investigated and issues dealt with where they arise as quickly as possible. Has there been a review of how these matters are dealt with to ensure they are processed in a more speedy fashion in order that members can be either reinstated fully or otherwise?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I have responsibility for governance and accountability and, underneath that, we have discipline and anticorruption. It is really important to say at the outset that the vast majority of gardaí are not involved in criminality or discipline issues, as the Deputy knows well. At the moment, we have approximately 97 people suspended out of a workforce of sworn gardaí of just over 14,000. This year, we have suspended 14 people.
I am in total agreement with the Deputy on the need to deal with these cases as quickly as we can. However, there are constraints on us in this regard. We review all of these cases every month. The assistant commissioner in charge of governance and accountability reviews every single one of them. Since the enactment of the new legislation recently, we give the member who is suspended an opportunity at every review to provide us with new additional information, which we will consider as part of the review.
One of the major constraints we have is where people are before the courts and the time that process takes. To give clarity, some of the offences involve serious criminality, including sexual crime, domestic violence and coercive control. Those ones alone, together with drink driving, make up approximately 27% of the cases.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Ninety-seven is a high number of gardaí who are no longer on duty. I presume they are on pay while they are suspended, which amounts to a significant amount of public money. It is important that these processes are sped up as much as possible.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am conscious of getting everybody in before we go. I remind members they each have three minutes for questions and answers. They should leave time for the witnesses to answer.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is not the witnesses' fault but I note that the joint policing committees have not been replaced.
It was a very good function. It was stopped prematurely because it is now a year later. Going back to the €40 million that arose in the context of the question on storage, the figure has emerged and the witnesses are going to come back on it, but what is the range of prosecutions or the range of crime involved in that €40 million? Could they give us an idea? That is huge. Then there is the firearms and then the drugs. I ask the witnesses to reply as quickly as they can and maybe supplement it with a note to us.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
I was going to say I think the best thing to do is to supplement it with a note. A lot of it is organised crime and a lot of it is related to drugs. When we do the seizures with respect to drugs a lot of times there is cash on hand as well. Generally speaking, that is what you are talking about.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The vast majority of that money is from organised crime or drugs.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Then there are the firearms and the drugs themselves. Does the organisation have a value on that at any given time? It is a very good indication of the level of crime and money involved.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It hides all the other practical problems the Vice Chair has raised.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On the Irish language, I will not dwell on it because the witnesses are coming back to me, but I want to be precise. It arose from an Coimisinéir Teanga's report years ago and related to a situation in Donegal with general applications. The Garda is aware of that.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I ask the witnesses to come back on that.
I move to the new National Office for Community Safety. The new Act has just been implemented in the last few months and that is part of the problem, but that new national office is in the Department of justice. Has the Garda liaised with it?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is ongoing. When I look at that I look at the word "community". When most of us look at police, besides the serious crime and so on, we think of community policing and we are actually begging to have more community gardaí on the road. Will that be a priority? Like with domestic violence, we can never identify how much of the budget is going to community policing. Will there be a point in the near future when we will be able to see that in the budget?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
No, it is okay.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
One final thing. Going back to Covid, the organisation got great praise, and rightly so, and I read all of the authority reports monthly. It was a point where people got back trust in the Garda. On the cars that were purchased at that time, there was a huge number of cars leased, was there not? Could the witnesses clarify the situation in that regard? They have set out how many new cars have been purchased and the electric vehicles and so on, but there was a huge cost from leased vehicles at that time. That is my last question.
Mr. Drew Harris:
We have no leased vehicles at this moment. Those vehicles were really purchased so we could single-crew vehicles. We put a huge effort, as the Deputy knows, into community support and that was to facilitate that. I can provide the cost of that leasing, but that goes back to 2020 and 2021.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
But it went over a few years, did it not? Anyway, I will not take up any more time.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is none. It is finished.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I appreciate there has been a collective approach to our engagement this morning. I have found it really informative with the back-and-forth, but also going to seek answers and stuff. I really appreciate the witnesses' approach.
On recruitment, we see in the PSNI new recruits and trainees are on salary from the minute they start their training programme, on point 1 of the scale, whereas in An Garda Síochána it is a €350 per week payment. I acknowledge food, subsistence and stuff like that is covered while recruits are in training, but has a business case ever been put before the Department of public expenditure for trainees to be paid on point 1 of the salary from day 1? It is possibly acting as a barrier to recruitment.
Mr. Drew Harris:
Undoubtedly when the weekly allowance was at about €160 people were saying to us they could not afford to undergo 30 weeks of training at that rate. As we attract older recruits that just could not happen. A case was put forward, following probably the example of nursing, for 80% of the first point. We are not at that at the moment with €340 a week, but we are not very far from it. Given the range of people we are recruiting, up to 49 years, the weekly allowance still needs to be addressed because if you are in your 30s or 40s you undoubtedly have all sorts of financial commitments and it is quite a commitment then to undertake training for 30 weeks at that rate of pay, in effect, with that allowance.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Definitely. From what I am hearing with representations it is the barrier for a lot of people who would love to consider the career. It seems to be the barrier. Maybe we could consider putting that business case forward. If we can remove the financial barrier, we might be closer to the target number sooner than we think.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
From the Commissioner's experience, are there any concerns over a potential backlog in terms of recruitment? We have had a number of representations to our office where people applied in 2022 and did not really get the outcome of their application until 2025 in some cases. Is there a backlog with the college or the processes?
Mr. Drew Harris:
I think there were backlogs that built up in the processes. We have completely re-engineered our process. We are identifying individuals who can come in, say, in August and dealing with them instead of taking everybody just in turn. We have addressed the fitness test. It now relates far more closely to the competency required for the job. We have also looked at our vetting processes. They are still under review. There are other areas of vetting we wish to explore into the future, but we have also introduced drug testing as well. We are quite unique in all the things we expect an applicant to go through, but we want to speed that up because we are losing out. People's careers develop or they find some other job they do not want to leave, so we need to be speedier in our response.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the Commissioner and everyone for all the time they have given today and the clarity they have given us in terms of their answers. Returning to the €40 million in cash, the Commissioner mentioned that the management of evidence and assets is something the organisation is already under scrutiny about from the Policing Authority. There are presumably security risks associated with each of the asset classes of cash, drugs and firearms. Is this something that is internally on a very high risk register within the Garda operationally? Is it something the Policing Authority has flagged? Are there concerns either recently or in the past about how the Garda is keeping these types of assets in its possession either on an evidentiary basis or as the potential proceeds of crime?
Mr. Drew Harris:
I will turn to Dr. Coxon on this in a moment. We have set up through the property and evidence management system, PEMS, a robust system that gives us assurance on accounting for all the things we retain, be it money, firearms or drugs or other property. The concern I have is if an individual member or staff member of An Garda Síochána has criminal intent, those systems can be defeated. We saw that with the theft of cannabis from Carlow station about a year and a half ago, so that is of concern. Also of concern is the amount of cash we are holding. That is an obvious concern for us and why so much work has gone into why we are holding it and what are the routes to ensure it is more secure and how do we get rid of it as quickly as possible. It is similar with arms and drugs. I turn to Dr. Coxon on some of the more detailed work she has undertaken.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
I will say two quick things. It is on our corporate risk register. I mentioned earlier we have been reporting on this issue not only to Policing Authority but also to our audit and risk committee. We are in the process of changing that structure because we now have a new board, but this is why we have done all this work. We know it is a risk and are continuing to work on it. That is why I welcome the conversation and looking at it going forward.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have only one other question. It is on Operation Encompass, an operation that exists in the UK in relation to gender-based violence.
It is set out in the national strategy for gender-based violence that there should be an arrangement whereby when members of An Garda Síochána carry out a house visit and are aware there is a child in that house and perhaps domestic violence incidents have taken place but not to the extent that it leads to criminality, An Garda Síochána would have an obligation to engage with the liaison person in the school. This has been talked about for quite some time. The previous Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, put it in the strategy. Piloting of this arrangement is mentioned in the implementation plan published yesterday by the Minister for Justice. Does Mr. Harris have a view regarding the implementation, particularly in light of the high figures reported by Women's Aid?
Mr. Drew Harris:
We are supportive of that but I point to our responsibilities in terms of the statutory responsibilities of Tusla. We have a responsibility, where we have a concern for any child, to report the circumstances to Tusla. We have an active exchange of information with Tusla around children in domestic abuse scenarios. That is also part of the risk assessment around a domestic abuse incident.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Did the Commissioner say that Garda numbers follow population where there is a population increase? It was in relation to another question.
Mr. Drew Harris:
The overall number of gardaí is not just a question of population; it is also about the extent of our responsibilities. We are a single national organisation. We have responsibilities to police local areas, we have national responsibilities in national units, we have a security service responsibility and we have an international responsibility as part of the increasingly complex demands of police services all over Europe; we are no different.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
North Kildare has a rapidly growing population. It has increased from 110,000 to 246,000 over approximately 20 years. We do not have a full-time Garda station in Celbridge or in Maynooth, despite the presence of the university. Kilcock Garda station covers a wider area than just the town of Kilcock; it also covers north-west Kildare. There are different issues in all of those towns. There have been significant public issues with individuals in Celbridge or Leixlip; that is how it happens. In north Kildare, we have not seen the increase in Garda numbers we should have seen. Historically, it has always been poorly represented in the number of gardaí per head of population. How can that be changed?
Mr. Drew Harris:
When we allocate resources, we also have to look at the demand placed on An Garda Síochána in calls for service. There is a balance between the presence of gardaí and their availability to respond to calls and emergencies and also deal with whatever crime there is. That has to be balanced against the actual demand a population centre creates. We now know far more about the demand - the 1.2 million calls for service we get - which must be factored in as well. On one night, one Dublin metropolitan region division had half of the work the entire organisation was taking on, for instance. There is also the GardaSAFE system.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will we have the resources for the new operating model?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
How many road traffic stops were done for alcohol and drug testing in 2023, for example? Roughly what percentage were caught for alcohol and for drugs? What are the variants between alcohol stops and drug stops?
Mr. Drew Harris:
In the year to date, for distracted driving there have been 8,000 detections. In 2023, there were 6,500. Detections in relation to no seatbelt this year to date are 1,900 and there were 1,800 in 2023. We have delivered safety camera detection with new static and average speed cameras. They were introduced between December 2024 and May 2025. Intercepts and non-intercepts for speeding show a reduction from 2023 to 2025. I am trying to find the figures for no insurance.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am interested in the figures for drugs and alcohol.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Perhaps the Commissioner can provide those later.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Commissioner said earlier that electric cars have been purchased. Are there fast chargers for them everywhere?
Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:
There is a suite of fast chargers. Our estate is managed by the OPW. We worked to identify 50 sites, I think, this year, which are being worked through. There are different fast chargers. There are 10 kW, 20 kW, 30 kW and up to 50 kW. We have fewer at the higher end. We are working with the OPW. The OPW depends on ESB Networks.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There was an article at the end of 2024 that said there was one fast charger for all the Garda cars in the country. Is Mr. O'Connor saying that is not right?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I wish to go back to the Commissioner on the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. What was his answer when I asked him why the files have not been released?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Mr. Harris. Fifty-one years is a long time for the families who are waiting. Will the Commissioner consider it before he retires? He spoke about retiring later in the year. It would be nice for those families to get closure.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the Commissioner. I appreciate that. On the actions the Garda was asked to implement, will Mr. Harris provide us with certainty that all of those weaknesses cited in the report received by this committee will be addressed?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will Mr. Harris come back to us in the latter half of the year to ensure all of those things are in line?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There will be one final round of three minutes for me. We will have the Commissioner out by 1 p.m. To return to the incident in Carlow and the controlled delivery operations prior to that, I presume in a operation like this at some level in An Garda Síochána there is an assessment of risk and of the resources that might be required to address that risk. Will the Commissioner outline how that takes place?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is the Commissioner in a position to say how many people were involved in the overall operation?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I do not have the exact figure. With all due respect, it probably would not be that appropriate to give the exact numbers that we deploy in operations but, as I said earlier, the numbers are very significant. The public probably does not appreciate the amount of work that goes on in the background of these general large organised crime operations. Some go for many months.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
You have hit the nub of the question. We have approached it as if it is either an organised crime or a terrorist-type operation where these controlled deliveries often take place. What many in the public are asking is whether that was an appropriate use of resources for the risk that was outlined. I know it has been suggested that-----
Mr. Drew Harris:
Yes, I would absolutely say “Yes” because there have been many instances across the world. Only two weeks ago in Austria, 11 individuals were shot dead by a lone person. This is, sadly, a more frequent occurrence. There is very insidious material on the Internet which seeks to radicalise young people. We have to look at an individual and the threat they might create to the general public and deal with that appropriately. This was, in our view, a very successful operation in that we made sure that a threat to the public did not arise from the circumstances we were dealing with. Subsequent events, tragic as they are, on 1 June were obviously very tragic but they did not arise from our operation that we conducted.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We do not know what the consequential impact of any incident is, to be fair, Commissioner. The point is significant resources seem to have been deployed to restore to the gardaí the controlled delivery which they had delivered. The question is whether the threat could have been addressed without the controlled delivery.
Mr. Drew Harris:
Frankly, no. We only know what we know about an individual. If I can speak generally, we know what their intent is. We do not know what other weapons, explosives or firearms they may have. We have to then assess the risk. This is a responsibility I have under health and safety for my own staff but also wider responsibility to the public, so I have to make sure these operations are dealt with in a way which minimises the risk to the public but also minimises the risk to Garda members. Therefore, it is appropriate to put in the necessary resources, properly equipped and properly trained, to take on such an intervention. There is no other way of doing this.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Go raibh maith agat, Commissioner. That concludes our engagement today with An Garda Síochána. I thank the Garda Commissioner, Mr. Drew Harris, and his officials from An Garda Síochána for attending here today. As it is likely to be the Commissioner’s last attendance before the Committee on Public Accounts, I also acknowledge the contribution he has made to the State.
I thank the officials from the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation and the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff for attending and assisting the committee today.
Is it agreed that the clerk will seek to follow up the information and carry out agreed actions arising from the meeting? Agreed.
We will suspend for five minutes and resume in private session for 30 minutes to consider correspondence, and then we will resume in public session to examine the accounts, statements and correspondence.