Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 25 June 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture and Food
Delays in Departmental Scheme Payments: Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine
2:00 am
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the departmental officials. Before we begin, I remind them that witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. This means a witness has a full defence in any defamation action in respect of anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed, at the Chair's discretion, to cease giving evidence on an issue. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard.
I remind witnesses of the long-standing parliamentary practice that, so far as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as does a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts. They may consider it appropriate to take legal advice in this regard. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside the proceedings of the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of members participating online in the committee meeting where their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate online in a public meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts. Any attempt to do so will result in the member having his or her online access removed.
There are no apologies from members unable to attend. Our business today is to discuss delays in payments from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine under its various schemes. I welcome Mr. Francis Morrin, assistant secretary; Mr. Paul Savage, assistant secretary; Mr. Thomas Harty, principal officer; Ms Josephine Brennan, principal officer; Mr. Jack Nolan, principal officer; Mr. Pat Morrisson, agricultural inspector; and Ms Margaret Brennan, assistant principal officer.
Copies of Mr. Morrin's opening statement have been circulated to members. He has five minutes to make his opening remarks, after which we will proceed to questions from members.
Mr. Francis Morrin:
I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for their invitation to attend this committee meeting to give an update on some of the support schemes for farmers.
I begin with an update on what many farmers will know as the single farm payment, that is, payments under Pillar 1 of the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, which are fully EU funded. They include the basic income support for sustainability, BISS, scheme, which has a funding total of approximately €735 million each year and is paid to 120,000 farmers. The complementary income support for sustainability, CRISS, scheme, often called front loading, has a funding total of about €118 million and is also paid to 120,000 farmers. Some 98% of these farmers also benefit under the eco-scheme, with funding of €297 million annually. The complementary income support for young farmers, CISYF, scheme has a fund of approximately €35 million annually and 6,500 applicants. The CISYF, accompanied by the national reserve scheme, allocates payment entitlements to farmers at the national average. Coupled support, known as protein aid here in Ireland, amounts to about €10 million and is paid to approximately 1,500 tillage farmers each year.
At this point in the year, virtually all of last year's payments are completed under all these schemes. Therefore, I will concentrate on the dates for this year's payments. Advance payments for BISS and CRISS will begin issuing from the earliest date legally possible, which is 16 October, with balancing payments to be made in early December. The eco-scheme advance payments will issue about a week later. Balancing payments, along with full payment under the CISYF scheme and protein aid, will be paid from early December.
All of these dates are in line with previous years and farmers will be well used to them. Our goal, as always, is to pay the largest number of farmers the highest possible amount of money at the earliest allowable date. We are acutely aware of the impact these payments have on farmers and rural communities.
Balancing this aim, we are also mindful of our responsibilities and accountability for the funds distributed through these schemes. Ultimately, it is all taxpayers' money.
In terms of the Pillar 2 schemes that operate in my area, I would like to address applications and payment dates. These are funded by the EU and national Exchequer jointly, as follows. The areas of natural constraints, ANC, scheme, previously known as the disadvantaged areas scheme, has funding of €250 million annually and is received by almost 100,000 farmers. Advance payments will begin this year from 17 September with balancing payments, as usual, from December onwards. The straw incorporation measure, SIM, received a large number of applications this year - over 3,000 - and we estimate that some €15 million may be allocated to the scheme this year with payments scheduled to commence in December. The suckler carbon efficiency programme, SCEP, is a five-year CAP strategic plan, CSP, scheme with the aim of providing genetic improvements in the suckler herd. The scheme has a total budget of €256 million over the five years, at approximately €51 million per year. Payments are scheduled to commence in December, as has happened for the past two years. The CSP dairy beef welfare scheme runs from 2024 to 2027, with a total allocation of €25 million over the four years. Payments issued in respect of the 2024 year as scheduled last March and will operate on a similar basis in 2026. The CSP sheep improvement scheme is a five-year programme and has funding of €20 million per annum and advance payments will issue in November, with balancing payments in May. The knowledge transfer, KT, scheme supports engagement of farmers with advisers to help empower farmers with targeted knowledge to help their profitability and sustainability. Payments commenced issuing, via their KT facilitators, to farmers from March this year and are planned on a similar timeline for future years. The KT facilitator payments are scheduled to commence in August.
I would also like to mention the schemes operated in my area that are exclusively funded by the national Exchequer. These include the national sheep welfare scheme with funding of €22 million this year, for which payment is scheduled for November; and the national beef welfare scheme, with funding of €28 million this year. This scheme will open in early August and payment is scheduled for early December. Also included are the national dairy beef weighing scheme with funding of €4 million this year, for which payment will issue in December; and multispecies sward and red clover silage schemes, with combined funding of €2.5 million and payment will issue in November. This brings the total farm scheme payments in my area to €1.6 billion per annum.
The Cathaoirleach and committee members might remember that we now have a new farmers' charter in place after lengthy negotiations from 2023 into 2024. We take our commitments under the charter very seriously. It sets out dates for payments and targets for numbers of farmers paid at those dates that we have committed to meet. I believe we have had very good success in this so far, and our goal is to continue to improve our services over time. I acknowledge the good work carried out by the farmers charter monitoring committee, and the positive, constructive engagement by the farm bodies there.
I am conscious I have just read out a long list of schemes with similar titles and it is easy to see how that list could cause confusion. However, I note that every one of these schemes is fully subscribed, which underlines their importance to farmers and the good that comes from each of them for farmers, farming in general in Ireland and for our rural communities.
I hope this information is useful for the committee and I am happy to answer questions as we go.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Morrin and call Mr. Savage.
Mr. Paul Savage:
Thank you, Cathaoirleach. First, I echo Mr. Morrin's thanks for the opportunity to update the committee today on progress with the implementation of the Pillar 2 schemes - agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES, targeted agricultural modernisation scheme 3, TAMS 3, the organic farming scheme and European innovation partnerships - which are operated by my colleagues headquartered in Wexford, and located in offices throughout the country.
The committee's focus today is on payments and I will concentrate my opening remarks on the payment situation across the various schemes which has improved significantly recently.
As members will be well aware, there have been delays with getting payments out to farmers for their participation in ACRES, particularly in respect of those who joined in 2023. These delays are sincerely regretted by the Department and we have been doing everything we can to both catch up with 2023 payments and to pay all farmers for their participation in the scheme in 2024 as soon as possible.
We have been making really good progress. Payment runs are now taking place every week and as of the end of last week, a total of €508 million has been paid to ACRES participants - €248 million in respect of farmers' participation in 2023 and €260 million in respect of 2024.
In the case of 2023, almost 99% of participants are now fully paid. A total of 578 farmers have yet to receive their final payments. Of these, 300 have already received an interim payment of €4,000 or €5,000, which in many cases will cover the entire amount of the payment due. In the case of 2024, advance payments have now been made to more than 96% of participants and balancing payments have been made to almost 89% of participants. In fact, by the end of this week when we run our next payment run, we expect those 2024 numbers to reach 97% to 98% for advance payments, and 94% to 95% for balancing payments. Payments will continue to be made on a weekly basis as we move into July, and the small overall proportion of remaining cases will be paid as soon as possible.
In some cases, the issue lies with participants themselves who, for example, may not have supplied documentation to support their applications. I would, therefore, urge ACRES participants in such circumstances to supply all outstanding documentation as soon as possible to allow their payments to be processed in the coming weeks.
In any event, the Department will continue to publish its weekly payment figures on its website, as well as turning its attention shortly to the 2025 advance payments, which are due to commence in November.
As regards ACRES non-productive investments, members will be aware that the first two tranches of applicants received their decision letters between December 2024 and April 2025, and work on these is under way on the ground. From a payments perspective, we expect that participants will be able to lodge payment claims from around the middle of July, and that payments will commence by early October at the latest.
On landscape actions, we expect to be able to open for applications in the next few weeks, with approval letters to follow later in 2025 and payments expected to commence in 2026.
Before leaving ACRES, I would like to acknowledge the fantastic work and dedication of my administrative, technical and IT colleagues in Wexford, and around the country, in delivering a truly ambitious and landmark scheme in what have been very difficult circumstances. They will continue to do so.
On TAMS, I would now like to turn to the TAMS 3, which, like ACRES, commenced in 2023 under the CAP strategic plan 2023-2027. Similar to ACRES, the need to put new administrative and IT structures in place while simultaneously opening and rolling out the scheme for participants, meant that it took longer than hoped to issue approvals and commence payments. In addition, more than 45,000 applications have been received across the first eight tranches of TAMS 3, compared to just over 15,000 received over the same number of tranches in the 2014 to 2022 TAMS 2 scheme, and all eligible applications are being approved.
Nonetheless, and again, thanks to the fantastic efforts of a very dedicated team of staff, we have been catching up quickly, with the result that all applications continue to be processed at both headquarters and local office levels. Almost 30,000 approvals have issued and payments to the value of €73 million have issued to TAMS 3 participants and are issuing at a rate of up to €2 million per week.
Given the scale of the approval numbers to date, the Minister has flagged that ranking and selection may need to be applied from the current tranche onwards. This was also the case with TAMS 2, so is not unusual, and the Department will continue to review the overall funding position on an ongoing basis.
Turning then to the organic farming scheme, we have seen really good progress in the number of participants and in the issuing of payments. The numbers in the scheme have risen from just over 2,000 in 2022 to 4,850 in 2024, and payments have risen from just over €12 million in respect of 2022, to almost €58 million in respect of 2024.
At this point, almost all participants have received their 2024 advance payment, and 96% have received their balancing payment. This level of performance is, again, down to the tremendous work of Department colleagues across the administrative, technical and IT streams.
European innovation partnerships operate differently to the more traditional scheme-based model, with funding allocated to operational groups that, in turn, pay farmers for participation.
Under the CAP strategic plan, the two flagship projects are the farming for water EIP and the breeding waders EIP. A range of other projects are being supported under the themes of animal health and welfare, gender balance, digital technologies, generational renewal and environmental sustainability. The Minister has also just launched the final EIP under the CAP strategic plan aimed at enhancing habitats and biodiversity in an arable environment.
Some payments have been made to participants in the farming for water EIP, to a total of around €1 million, but most projects have not yet reached the stage where payments to farmers would be due to be made. Again, I wish to acknowledge the great work of the Department's team on that.
I hope the Cathaoirleach and members have found this update useful and I look forward to answering any questions the committee may have.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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First, before we proceed I wish to confirm that we received apologies from Senator Collins. We are aiming at five-minute question-and-answer slots in order that there will be an opportunity to come back on a second round based on the time left available to us.
I thank the officials for the presentations. We had the opportunity to read over them earlier as well.
Farmers feel the pressure when there are delays in the payments. It was a major issue for members that we wanted it pursued and that it would be a priority and we would have it as one of the committee's first topics.
The likes of ACRES and TAMS are typical pressure points that farmers have been raising. It is not just about identifying what is behind it but also what the Department is doing to deal with that and to ensure it does not arise in future schemes so farmers can depend on receiving their payments.
Ábhar mór buairt d'fheirmeoirí atá ann. Teastaíonn uainn a chinntiú go mbeidh íocaíochtaí á fháil acu in am. Tá baill an choiste chun díriú isteach ar cén fáth a bheadh moill i gceist, agus cén feabhas gur féidir a chur ar an gcóras chun a chinntiú nach mbeadh a leithéid ag tarlú.
Each member will have five minutes for the first round and I will start with Deputy Healy-Rae.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for coming this. They have a fine team. My first question is for Mr. Savage and is about ACRES. We have been tormented by farmers who have not received their ACRES payments and this is going on since last September or October. Mr. Savage said the Department had reached 97% to 98% for advance payments. How many applicants have not been paid at present?
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I will wait for Mr. Savage's answer.
Mr. Paul Savage:
At the moment, we have three tranches or blocks of participants. The 2023 participants are in tranche one. Approximately 558 of those participants have not been paid yet from a total of 44,700 farmers. In the case of the advance 2024 payments, we now have 1,635 people who have not been paid, so that is the remainder of the 97% I mentioned earlier. In the case of the 2024 balancing payments, which we have been making recently, there are approximately 3,300 farmers still to receive payment. Those who are awaiting those balancing payments would have received the advance payments at this stage, apart from the 1,635 I mentioned earlier.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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When Mr. Savage talks about percentages, it looks grand but when we hear that 1,635 still have to get advance payments, that is kind of serious. When does the Department expect to have that cleared?
Mr. Paul Savage:
We are working on clearing that up as soon as we can. We have been working through a number of issues over the past number of months and have been clearing each of those different categories of problem we have. They range from issues around inconsistencies in the information we have on ACRES compared with BISS, for instance, to issues around changes of ownership and of contract with ACRES participants themselves. There are a number of other issues in terms of reconciling data, processing all the information correctly and making sure we can calculate the payments correctly. We are working through those and making payments on a weekly basis to all of the categories of payees I talked about, those being, 2023 balancing payments, 2024 advance payments and 2024 balancing payments. They are receiving payments every week, and as we clear each of those cases, they are being paid within the week afterwards. We expect the remainder of payments to be cleared over the next number of weeks.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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When Mr. Savage said the system was broken, what kind of machine was broken down, was someone sick or what was wrong? When we have a machine that is broken down, we have to repair it and if it cannot be repaired or will take 12 months to repair, it is time to send the machine off to Hammond Lane or somewhere like that. I have been speaking to a fella since last September. I know that because I could not sort it out for him and he has gone to every other politician since then. He did not go to them until lately. I do blame him for trying other people. All he did was go into partnership with his wife, but that was before last September. How is that taking so long to resolve?
Mr. Paul Savage:
Partnership cases are one of the categories of case that are proving difficult for the Department. We have had issues where there are serious complications that arise in terms of people coming together in partnerships because the Department, across a range of schemes, has to associate all of the different details that would have been associated with individuals up to that point. We have to bring them together under the partnership umbrella. Then we have to make sure we are giving adequate payments to people but not duplicating them and that we are making payments correctly. It is a complex exercise. Our systems have to be adapted in order to accommodate partnerships. We have had difficulties with those over the years in terms of trying to process them properly.
From an ACRES pint of view, and I think the Minister mentioned this when he was here previously, we took the approach we wanted to definitively fix those issues that needed to be fixed as far as changing ownerships in partnerships is concerned. We did not want to put out a short-term solution that would involve manual payments being processed for farmers and carrying forward problems into subsequent years. We wanted to make sure the system was working effectively, and that has delayed the payments.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Will the same thing be repeated next year? Will we have to go through the same racket next year with this system? Will there be a totally new system to deal with this next year or what? If we go through the same thing again next year, the system will have to be scrapped. I am not blaming the officials personally but this scheme is not good enough. Farmers are owed money and are entitled to get it.
Mr. Paul Savage:
I can definitively say that we will not have the same problems next year. That is partly because we have chosen to deal with the problems definitively this year and get all of those categories fixed, have our IT systems fixed so they are working properly, and get the whole machine, as the Deputy called it, working effectively so that we are not carrying those problems into next year. We wanted to fix the problems properly this time around precisely so that we would not have a repeat of them next time. That is the intention, that they will not recur next year.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their opening statements, for being here and for all of the work the Department's staff do to ensure farmers get their payments. That needs to be acknowledged from the outset. It is a big task and we recognise that.
To go back to ACRES, one of the frustrations for farmers was they applied for the scheme, there was a lot of work involved with planners coming out to do all of that work, they waited to get their scores and could not get them. They did not know where they stood. Then they received a cheque in the post with an interim payment and even before they received their scores, they received a demand to return some of that payment. The witnesses can understand their frustration.
As I said at the first meeting of the committee, if we are able to do nothing else, then we need to recognise that the Department has a huge role to play in ensuring farmers receive their money. The one thing we can control is that. We cannot control the weather, prices or other things. When a scheme is set up that farmers buy into, go with good faith and make the arrangements to do the tasks they are asked to do but then do not get their money and there are continuous delays, it causes a huge level of mistrust of the Department. That needs to be acknowledged as well. I am not blaming any individual for this but there is clearly a problem, particularly when it comes to the IT systems. Most of the farmers in ACRES were in a previous environmental scheme with the same lands. Very little has changed. Most of them have the same plots of ground they had in previous schemes such as GLAS and they are totally at a loss to understand how and why these issues keep coming up every time. Every time there is a new scheme, a whole new mechanism has to be put in place to deal with it. Can there not be a carryover across rounds?
Mr. Paul Savage:
I will take the Deputy's points in order. There was the point about waiting to get scores, getting the interim payment and the Department having to claw some back, and all of the issues associated with rolling the scheme out. From the Department's point of view, that did not happen in the sequence and way we would have liked. In a way, that is reflective of how schemes are launched. The traditional cycle sees us go through a CAP reform - I will come back to the issue of changing the cycle in future - every five or seven years. Then we go through a process of designing schemes and implementing them. When we get to the point where the plan is approved and we want to start rolling out the schemes, there is a demand to get the schemes out straight away, have things up and running and have farmers continue receiving their payments, as would have been the case when moving from GLAS to ACRES. Unfortunately, that puts the Department in a situation where, while we are rolling the scheme out, we are actually putting the IT systems and administrative structures in place at the same time. That is the difficulty we have had.
We talked about the problems in GLAS ten years ago. There were similar issues in terms of the rolling out of the scheme because of the sequencing as well as the parallel activities going on when a new programme is put in place. ACRES has been similar and we have had problems. It is not the same scheme, though. ACRES is a big step up from what was going on in GLAS. People are farming the same land and the same core of people are involved, but the requirements under this scheme are very different. There are new elements to the ACRES scheme and new demands. There is a new results-based element, which has a very large number of participants. ACRES has been a much more complex scheme from the Department's point of view to administer and for farmers to get their heads around and participate in.
We acknowledge that. Due to that complexity, the fact that we were rolling out the scheme, and the effort that was going into developing the systems while we were rolling it out, those elements did not fall into place in the manner we would have liked. When the Deputy talks about rolling over, continuing on and trying to keep it fairly consistent, from our perspective-----
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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“Simplification” is the word we continually hear echoing around everything.
Mr. Paul Savage:
We will be learning. We have been constantly learning from the experience of ACRES over the last two years in terms of, for example, how we might approach payments over the next number of months, try to simplify our own processes and try to speed up the process for farmers getting payments. We will be doing that and we do it on an ongoing basis. However, when it comes to the next CAP, we have to look at what the new regulatory framework offers us in terms of the new programme. From our perspective, having had the experience of ACRES and having made that big step up in ambition, we would like to be able to maintain the course on ACRES, steer a steady ship, not make major changes and, if anything, just focus on making it more efficient and better, getting payments out more quickly and processing the scheme in a more efficient manner. That will be our focus. We are learning. It is unfortunate, given how the schemes are rolled out in each respective CAP cycle, that we are in that space. We will be doing a lot more planning at a much earlier stage for the next CAP than maybe was the case previously.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Non-productive investments were mentioned in the second-last paragraph of the opening statement. This is another issue for farmers in that they did not know when they were going to get paid. We are now almost halfway in and many farmers still do not know what is happening. Can anything be done to reassure people with regard to the money they had hoped to get when they went into the scheme? Certainly, within the first year, they need to see what extra they need to do to be able to push that up. Two years in, many still do not know. What can happen to ensure something is done to assist farmers in that regard?
Mr. Paul Savage:
We are doing that. Again, to be fair, we have caught up on the non-productive investments over the last while. We had issues in terms of getting that up and running, considering the issues we had with the payments. We have now opened two windows. We have issued approvals for all of those and the actions are being implemented on the ground, as I said in my statement. We will be moving on to claims and payments in the next month and then, over the following number of weeks, putting the payment system in place. We are also looking ahead to opening the next tranche of the NPIs later in the year. We want to generate confidence by making the claims facility and the payments facility available over the next couple of months.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses. Can Mr. Savage quantify how many farm families have faced financial hardship or debt due to delayed payments? What support has been offered to them in response?
Mr. Paul Savage:
I think the Deputy is talking about the number of outstanding payments. In terms of the number of farm families who are affected by this, it is those figures that I gave in terms of the outstanding payments. As I said, 558 people have not been paid their 2023 balancing payments, although half of those have already received an interim payment of €4,000 or €5,000. That 558 is part of the 1,600 who have not received an advance payment because they need to get their 2023 payment in order to get the grants. In turn, that 1,600 is part of the overall 3,300 who are still to get a balance. As each one is paid, it falls.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I asked what supports the Department offers to people who try to ring for a fortnight or three weeks when the Department does not answer the phone. Does it have any support for people like that? We know they are frustrated on the phone. Does the Department have a scheme? Just answer the question, “Yes” or “No”.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is fine. It does not. That is the most important thing for mental health among the farmers I deal with.
Who is directly accountable for the ongoing delay in the Department’s payment of schemes? Why has no one been held publicly responsible for these repeated failures? These are questions that I want answered.
Mr. Paul Savage:
The Department is responsible for the systems it is operating and for getting the payments out on time. I am ultimately the head of the pillar 2 schemes and the ACRES schemes. If the Deputy wants to point the finger of blame at anybody, then I am ultimately the person responsible for that.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is grand. I have a follow-up question. Has the Department conducted an independent review into the causes of these delays and, if so, why has the report not been published and made available to the farming community?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Why does the Department not share that with the farming community if it knows what the issues are? That is where the responsibility lies. That is grand. That has answered the question.
Why is the Department’s payments processing system still prone to delays in 2025 despite decades of EU oversight, increased digitalisation and repeated assurances of improvements? That is what we were being told.
Mr. Paul Savage:
As I said earlier, the ACRES scheme as it stands now is very different from any environmental scheme that went before it. It is complex and there are a number of new elements compared to what was there previously in GLAS. There are a number of different components that have to be implemented in parallel and also processed in parallel in terms of making payments. Yes, we have had long experience of operating EU-funded schemes and, yes, we have had previous environmental schemes, but those environmental schemes and all of the schemes we operate across the Department evolve over time, progress, change, adapt and respond to the pressures and demands from farmers on the ground. When we do that, when we change the emphasis, when we increase the ambition, as we are this time around, it means that we have to change our systems and adapt our processes accordingly. We are effectively starting from scratch each time.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That brings me to my next question. Many farmers, myself included, report receiving no updates or clarity for weeks after the delays occur. Why is there such a failure in basic communication and transparency? Every farmer has gone through that system for years. Why does this happen? Can it be improved?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It is not just ACRES.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I just want to get an answer for those people.
Mr. Paul Savage:
From an ACRES point of view, we can always improve communications and we can always improve the way we communicate with people. Part of the issue is that, when we are having problems and experiencing issues with payments, the efforts to resolve those problems and process those payments are combined with a very large increase in the number of calls and contacts that farmers are making to the Department. We are trying to strike the right balance between getting payments out and dealing with specific queries.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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With all due respect, people cannot even get through to the Department.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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How can Mr. Savage talk about making progress when we cannot even get through to the Department? I will leave it at that.
Mr. Paul Savage:
I will just answer that point about not getting through. There have been issues around people not being able to get through from time to time but those issues have been resolved. We have been improving to the extent that the most recent figures for responses to calls in Wexford, for example, are at over 90% of all calls made to our customer relations section.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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My time is running out and there is a question I did not get to ask. Why are the schemes continually launched without proper systems in place to ensure payments can be made in time? Why do we keep launching the schemes when the Department is not even up to speed on payments for the ones that have gone before that?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am talking about the ones that have not been paid out under TAMS. Has all the money been paid out under TAMS?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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How many years does it go back?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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When was TAMS 3 launched?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It was 2023. It is now 2025. How many people here have been waiting for their wages for two years? I will finish on that as my time is up.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy asked a reasonable question as to whether the Department would publish a review when it has identified issues. Is that the normal course of events? For example, if the Department identified that there are issues within its system or issues that farmers found difficult, or whatever it is, does the Department publish something like a review so things are smoother in the next application process?
Mr. Paul Savage:
No, we do not publish reviews into how the internal systems are working, as such. What we are doing is fixing the problems as they emerge, and we do that on an ongoing basis. We have a plan of action to fix any IT issues, processing issues or administrative issues that we are having, and we do that on an ongoing basis. We do it through the really deep knowledge that people have of how the schemes operate and what the issues are within the systems that need to be addressed. To be honest, even an independent review from outside would really have to familiarise itself with the internal workings of the scheme, which would be difficult given the complexity of the scheme. We are adapting all of the time and making changes all of the time. We are changing the functionality and we have increased the frequency of payments over the last period.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Savage see that there would be value in having feedback?
Mr. Paul Savage:
Yes, absolutely. We constantly look at that internally ourselves. We will probably try to structure this more formally as well. We have engaged previously with the farming organisations in terms of their experience with ACRES and other schemes. That is something we could consider in the context of looking at how the payment systems have performed over the last while.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Savage for his presentation. As we face towards 2026, why have a total of 578 farmers not been paid since 2023?
Mr. Paul Savage:
The reason for that remaining number is essentially around the change of ownership cases I referred to earlier such as farm partnerships and other change of ownership-type situations. Almost all of the outstanding cases fall into the bracket. We have been working to try to resolve those over the past while and we will work through those over the next number of weeks. As I said earlier, we made a decision that we wanted to fix the underlying problems in the system so that we did not have to resort to manual or paper-based payments to farmers. They would only discommode farmers every year for the next couple of years and would also make it difficult for us to implement in the Department. We are tackling the problem on the basis that we fix it permanently so that it does not recur in the future. That is the reason those cases have not been paid to date. That is also the reason we are also focussing intently on getting them processed as quickly as we can.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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That is good to hear. Going back to the earlier this year about 14,500 farmers were due outstanding payments. I am delighted the number is now down to approximately 1,400 for 2023 and 2024. What happened in the meantime that those payments could be processed within a couple of months when they could not be processed previously? Deputy Healy-Rae inquired about it, but I do not believe the reply he got was the right reply. Was it the Department that was holding it up or was it the farmers who had issues and did not have proper applications in?
Mr. Paul Savage:
It was a range of things. As I said earlier, in some cases there were discrepancies between ACRES data we had on our system and this data, for instance. In some cases we had a major block, which the Minister referred to recently, in terms of rotational actions that are being deployed in the context of ACRES, which we had to resolve with an IT fix. We had a range of other categories where the data was not reconciling between ACRES and BISS. We were working through those categories on a systematic basis over the past number of months. That has enabled us to bring the 14,500 that was outstanding in January down to the 1,600 as it is now. We will continue to work through them. As I mentioned earlier, the change of ownership cases will form a large part of that remaining block. When we get those fixed over the next few weeks, those payments will go out to farmers. It is a case of continuing to chip away at all of those categories of issues we have had and we will get to the end of it over the next number of weeks. Hopefully we can continue with the rate of progress we have had over the past couple of months.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I want to compliment the officials on the work they have done but even as late as today, I had two constituents of mine on about payments going to back to 2023 or 2024. Hopefully they will be sorted in the near future. Can Mr. Savage give an assurance that this will not happen again and payments will be on time going forward like other schemes?
Mr. Paul Savage:
Yes, I can give that assurance. We have all of our systems in place now. We have our functionality fixed. Issues will inevitably come up in individual cases, which is the natural, normal run of the fair in terms of people changing ownership or transferring holdings or whatever it might be that we will have to deal with next year in the normal way. We carry out a process called a rollover which updates all our ACRES data on foot of BISS data received in a given year. That usually throws up a few cases of inconsistencies and issues that have to be resolved. We will do that in any event. Our systems have been fixed in terms of the IT functionality in place. We will also be working on streamlining our process further and making sure those systems are working effectively for the advance payments in 2025, which start in November.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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That is welcome and good news for the farming community. We are well aware of the costs they have had during the years. A lot of them are struggling at the moment and there is no point is saying otherwise.
The overgrowth of roadside trees and vegetation is dangerous at the moment and we are well aware of what happened during the recent storm. Is there a grant available to farmers to take down those trees and cut the vegetation coming onto the road? Is that something that could be looked at? Could a payment be made to farmers? If a farmer does not fulfil their duties, that payment could then be made to the local authority or contractors who carry out this work. A lot of roads are dangerous at the moment. It is important that vegetation is kept off them and that roadside ditches are cut back.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry: I can assure Mr. Savage it is not. We have been fighting this for a number of years in our county. The local authority says it is responsibility of the landowner if the growth is on the top or inside of the hedge. If it is on the outside of the hedgerow, then it is the responsibility of the local authority. Farmers should be getting support if possible to help them cut back trees and vegetation.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Due to the vote in the Seanad, we skipped a number of Senators. I will go back to Senator Daly.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach. We had a vote. I will ask my few questions. If I have to go, I will follow up on the witnesses' answers. If I do ask anything that was asked while I was away, please tell me. I have three questions but time is an issue so I will ask them and give the witnesses time to respond.
We are reading a lot of commentary about TAMS being deficient in funds and that due to over-subscription in the earlier tranches there may not be money to pay going forward. Could the witnesses comment on this if they have not done so? With regards to the different schemes, I understand circumstances change due to factors such as the volume of applications or IT issues. People make mistakes, and things change for individual applicants, which means that some will not be paid on time. However, there are situations that can be avoided, which are of the Department's making. I was the victim of one of them, which related to satellite farm inspections. If the Department wants to do satellite farm inspections, why can it not have them done and dusted before the payment date comes? An applicant can have everything in order, as I had. I got people to do a lot of work for me and I promised them the money would come in the second week in October and they would be paid. I then got a letter informing me that mine was one of the farms picked for a satellite inspection, which meant that I had to wait until it was complete. It was completed, everything was in order and I eventually got my money. I was waiting through no fault of my own. It was the fault of the Department because it did not carry out that satellite inspection between April and October. That is an issue that can be avoided if it is changed.
On a side note to the satellite inspection; I am not blowing my own trumpet but again everything was in order. The area I was applying for was spot on to the second decimal but some parcels were slightly wrong. The parcels I overclaimed for by fractions were deducted back to what the Department said they were. However, the parcels I underclaimed for to get the balance were not brought up. Why is it anti-farmer? I have the paperwork to prove that. The Department took the extra bit off where I, or whoever, made the mistake, which was grand, but it did not bring the other ones I underclaimed on up. That is anti-farmer. If the Department can take it off, why can it not add it on? These are my questions. Mr. Savage has two and half minutes.
Mr. Paul Savage:
I thank the Senator. I will take the TAMS question and will then pass over to Mr. Morrin and Mr. Harty to answer the second part. On the TAMS funding, following the approval of all applications in tranches 6, 7 and 8, the Minister flagged that we may have to look at ranking and selection from this tranche onwards when it comes to looking at the overall budget in the CSP for the period. As I mentioned earlier-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry for interrupting Mr. Savage. Is that for future applications or could applications already in be delayed?
Mr. Paul Savage:
It relates to future applications. The Minister clarified and confirmed that all eligible applications in tranches 6, 7 and 8 will be approved. It is from this tranche moving forward. That is why the Minister made the announcement at the start of the tranche so that people knew in advance that it would be a potential feature this time around. He is giving notice that we do have to keep an eye on the overall budget in the CSP. It was done in TAMS 2 over a number of tranches, again with a mind to the overall budget to try to make sure it was managed properly over the period. It was simply a means of flagging that we have had high response and approval rates so far; three times what we would have done over the first eight tranches in TAMS 2. That does mean we have to be prudent. We have to watch the expenditure profile over the next number of years. This may involve us considering the application of ranking and selection. I will hand over to Mr. Morrin to deal with the other points on the satellite inspections.
Mr. Francis Morrin:
We will always try to have inspections completed before payments are due so that situation is avoided if at all possible. In relation to the satellite inspections the Senator referred to, if I understood him correctly, those are now finished and gone. The system has changed in the meantime for the positive. We will always try to have inspections completed. For our own sakes, it is better for us to have those inspections completed and that the farmer knows well in advance exactly where they stand-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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That was not the case, but Mr. Morrin is saying it is now?
Mr. Thomas Harty:
During past inspections, we could not pay the farmer until the inspection was done but what the Senator said is completely understandable. Often, farmers have asked in the past why, when it turned out there was no issue, was the money held but it has changed a bit. Area monitoring has been introduced. I am conscious of time, so we can go into detail later on. However, on the second point that under-claim on one parcel and over-claim on the other should offset, that is called cross-compensation. If it did not, the only reason it would not is if, for example, one parcel was made up of something like beans, as in it was a protein-aid scheme, and the other-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Was all grassland.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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If something was wrong, it was wrong in your favour, not mine.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I have the paperwork.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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First, in the line of ANC, everything changed with the new CAP, including ANC, BISS, CRISS, the eco scheme, sheep, calf and arable. When you look at the Department units led by Francis or Thomas or Margaret - Pat is in inspections and Josephine is on TAMS - we had not one problem. Okay, we would have to wait for a few weeks but if you picked up a phone, it was sorted. The one observation I have for the section in Portlaoise - and I find it very good and want to compliment our witnesses - is that if the digitisation of maps could be sped up, it would be helpful. Especially if there are odd appeals going on and with the GAEC coming up down the road, the digitisation could be of benefit in the future.
To be fair, in all the schemes I deal with, I do not have a problem. In the line of organic, the great work that was done was mentioned earlier on. Of the work that was done, I can say that Jack Nolan over there travelled the byroads and the highways of Ireland a few years ago into cold halls and warm halls at night. I saw him in the west trying to promote to people the value of getting into organic when a lot of farmers were very afraid of it. The other person I want to compliment is Willie Murphy.
The one thing I want to get stuck into is ACRES. Can Mr. Savage tell me how many people were waiting in 2023 for their payments?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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No. The number of people that did not get paid at the end of 2023.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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How many people were waiting at the end of 2024?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Does Mr. Savage think it is acceptable that farmers waited two years? Would he wait two years for his few quid?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Where is the accountability?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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We will go back a little bit. I have been here ten years. I was here for GLAS and I saw for two or three years, the same dangling going on below in Wexford with that. We were in trouble for a few years. To be fair, it was sorted quicker. We are three years into this scheme and Mr. Savage mentioned figures earlier of 1,625, 558 and 3,300. In the case of how many farmers is it their problem out of all of those figures?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Mr. Savage mentioned it earlier when talking about farmers.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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How many?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Is the Department going to do a review of this to try to simplify it over the coming months to make sure that whatever needs to be dropped or got rid of, be it IT or whatever is going wrong, the Department will have it perfected for the payments come the end of this year?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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What is the Department going to do for the farmer who had delays in 2023 and 2024 and now 2025? For tax purposes, what is the Department going to do for them? Have our witnesses talked to the Department of public expenditure? If farmers have kids in college, there is a threshold on it. What is the Department going to do for those farmers because of its mistakes, not theirs?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Did the Department go to the Department of public expenditure to ask it to give a special dispensation because the Department was at fault, not the farmer?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Will the witnesses do that?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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If a farmer has to pay €9,000 in college fees because of this, tough luck.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Their kids could be going to college.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, the committee could raise that point. It would not be Mr. Savage’s business to directly deal with Revenue about this but the committee could, if we chose-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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What sort of helpline is the Department talking about setting up to deal with farmers on ACRES? To be fair, a person could ring that man over there, Willie Murphy, but other than that - I am talking about the ACRES side of it - when you ring Wexford, it is like trying to ring Santa. You never get an answer. Mr. Savage is the senior person. I rang him myself a few times and did not get an answer. Leadership should be shown.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I will show Mr. Savage on my phone if he wants to see.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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You press the button to call back.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Mr. Savage did not call me in the past week about it if he knew about it.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We need to move on. There will be another opportunity to come back.
Mr. Paul Savage:
Can I address that last point about the access to people in Wexford in respect of the calls? Yes, there have been points along the way where we have had issues with people in Wexford because of the fact that everybody has been flat out trying to process the payments. However, that has improved considerably over the past number of months, which I mentioned earlier, to the point that over the past couple of weeks, we answer 95% of calls that come into the office in Wexford. That is the reality at present.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. ACRES obviously is a massive issue but as with any new scheme, issues come with it on the Department's end and on farmers' end. Is it not a stage where the Department knows a scheme is coming in and there will be IT and administrative issues? It really would be better to hold off longer. The Department knows a scheme is going to be up in 2027 and the paperwork needs to be done beforehand. This is about going forward; it is not a question.
With ACRES, there is a shortfall in the money allocated for 2025 of €74.6 million. Where is the money going to come for that when 300,000 ha supposedly are to be added to the scheme? The Department needs more, not less. Where is that money going to come from? Are we going to see more issues around that?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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The issues with the payments were not down to money but to IT issues. However, we know that going ahead, for 2025 the scheme is €74.6 million short on last year's money. Where is that going to come from? Are we going to see more issues? Are we going to see worse issues when the money is not there to meet the demand?
Mr. Paul Savage:
I will take that question and come back to the Deputy’s first point about preparations and planning. On the money, we are going to need additional money to meet all of our requirements this year regarding ACRES, but that will have to be found across the Department's Vote. We monitor that on an ongoing basis over the entire year.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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The total budget for agriculture is already down a small bit. Money for ACRES has been taken out and put into organic farming, young farmers, all of these other schemes. For the farmers who went into the ACRES scheme in good faith and with all the issues that have been there already, I just cannot understand how that has been cut. It is ridiculous.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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According to the figures I received, the funding is down by that much. The whole figure is down as well. What we see is money going into other sections. The money is less than last year and we have 300,000 ha added into the scheme as well. It seems the Department needs more, not less.
Mr. Paul Savage:
My recollection is that this year's allocation was approximately €30 million higher than last year's.
The allocation for ACRES in 2025 is higher than 2024 but we will need more money towards the end of the year in order to be able to pay all participants in the scheme. This will be done in the course of the normal practice of managing our budget over the course of the year, identifying savings and prioritising putting those savings into ACRES funding.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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With TAMS, it is not reachable for every farmer to come up with the money first before receiving the 60% under the scheme. With all the storms we had, where our electricity was gone, I would like to see better supports for the idea of harvesting water and having extra schemes. Due to the issues throughout the country with the storms, will there be anything better done on this end?
Mr. Paul Savage:
In respect of the 60% not being reachable or enough to support farmers, the overarching point here is, again, we need to manage the budget very carefully. Increasing the percentage of grant aid we allocate to people would have budgetary implications for the entire scheme. This places particular constraints on whether we consider increasing grant rates, which are quite generous in certain categories, and go from the standard 40% up to 60%, as the Deputy will know well.
The same consideration comes into it when we talk about extra schemes and other possible investment items for water and such. We keep under constant review the range of items supported under TAMS. We are always looking at new technology and developments to see what is possible and feasible for support but we must balance that all the time against what is the available budget. We must do this within the clear parameters we have under the CSP up to 2027. Those issues are-----
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Is there an upfront amount that could be paid back or something like that?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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There will be another opportunity to come back in on that. I need to move on to Deputy Lawless.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I thank the witnesses for attending. At what stage did the Department realise there was an IT problem with the ACRES scheme?
Mr. Paul Savage:
When we realised there was an IT problem is a difficult thing to pin down. I might explain to the Deputy how the situation developed. I mentioned that, as we rolled out the scheme, we put the IT systems in place. We were developing the IT infrastructure as we were going along, so it was a work in progress all the time.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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At what stage did the Department realise there was a problem here and there were issues around processing?
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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The frustration that farmers across Ireland and I have is that at no stage in late 2023 or 2024 did the Department show leadership and tell farmers that there was an issue on the Department's side and the Department was working to fix it. Farmers were given the run around, and I was given the run around while trying to represent farmers in Mayo. It was completely unacceptable. Farmers across the country felt they were at fault and were trying to understand what the issue was. In some cases, they asked me whether they had failed an inspection or whether there had been an overpayment. All along, for more than a year, the Department knew the problem was on its end. Why did the Department not come out, tell farmers about the issue, show leadership and tell them it was working hard to solve the issue?
Mr. Paul Savage:
We did, actually. We made it clear towards the end of 2023 that there were going to be delays with the payments. We only made 17,000 or 19,000 payments - I cannot remember the exact figure off the top of my head - but we got those payments out at the end of December. We knew there would be delays and undertook to try to get the payments made by the following February. We communicated with people that we were aiming for that deadline in February. When that was not possible, we moved on to making interim payments to farmers, which went out in March 2024. We communicated with people. We wrote to them and explained the situation. We told them what the arrangements would be in the following months for payments and then potentially having to reconcile those payments and recoup moneys they were overpaid. We were in constant contact with them.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I must be straight with Mr. Savage, in that there were major issues around communication and a lack of transparency on this. I can show him the evidence. I can show him letters and so on. There should have been transparency. The Department should have shown leadership and been straight and honest with farmers that there were difficulties with the processing and IT system. That bit of courtesy would have gone a long way and helped many of the public representatives here.
How much did the IT system for ACRES cost?
Mr. Paul Savage:
I do not have the specific cost. The IT development effort is incorporated into the overall IT resources in the Department. We have IT teams within the overall IT resource. We have our own internal teams in the Department that work with external contractors, and we develop each item of software and each part of the functionality as we go. I do not have a specific breakdown of what that cost is in terms of internal and external contributors.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Does Mr. Savage have an estimate?
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Is the Department happy with how it has gone? What has been learned? We always hear lessons have been learned but can the Department tell the farmers five lessons it has learned from this?
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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What lessons were learned?
Mr. Paul Savage:
The first one is we want to get payments out more quickly and try to simplify our payment structure overall. We have a lot of complexity in the scheme now, as environmental schemes tend to have. Our job is to try to simplify that and streamline it to the best extent we can. That is what we will focus on when we do the exercise I mentioned earlier, which will start next month.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Practically speaking, what lessons have been learned from this mess?
Mr. Paul Savage:
That is what I am saying. The lessons learned are about doing the most we can to streamline the operation of the system and ensure it is more efficient for the advance payments later in the year. We wanted to ensure we developed every element of the system correctly and fully so that the system would work effectively and we did not create any additional issues for ourselves as far as payments were concerned. That is why we did not take a shortcut of processing manual or paper-based payments or whatever it might be. That would only create problems for farmers and ourselves in the long-term, as has been done in the past. We learned from that lesson previously that we did not want to do that again. We now have a system that has the elements of functionality in place and we can rely on that to function more effectively in the future. That is what we will take forward into the next advance payments later this year.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We will have an opportunity to go around again for each member. Once the Senators come in after their vote, we will give them the opportunity.
I have one or two questions on this. Were there particular things the Department identified as causing problems but where a fix could be put in place so that this would not happen again with future schemes? What has been learned from it? We do not want to see a situation like this recurring. People who would have been on earlier schemes and had expected to continue in a similar scheme put in the same farm and expected to continue getting an income on it in ACRES. Why would those people rolling over into ACRES not have been able to be paid in a reasonable period? Why would they have been caught up in this when they were just rolling over into the next scheme?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Mr. Paul Savage:
I might take the last point first regarding rolling over from GLAS into ACRES. I mentioned earlier that ACRES was essentially a very different scheme to GLAS. Each time we have gone through the past couple of CAP cycles, the environmental scheme has been very different. On this occasion, ACRES was building on the learnings from GLAS and what we had been doing in the European Innovation Partnerships in respect of results-based systems as well as the REAP programme, which was a test of the results-based system on the ground. It was very different and not just a case of carrying over people from GLAS to ACRES. People had to sign up to a very different scheme compared to GLAS. We must take that approach where people sign up to the new scheme at the start of each programme because there are different elements to it than would have been the case previously.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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On that uafásach word of "learnings", what learnings have been taken from this whole thing for the next round of new schemes?
It is a question that came up earlier but can people getting paid next year expect to be paid in a timely manner?
Mr. Paul Savage:
People can expect to see a better performance and much more streamlined and efficient system. Payments will get out much quicker and to higher numbers of people next year. That is the undertaking we have made because we have learned those lessons on those particular elements. Over the last 12 months or more, we have been systematically working through different kinds of issues and problems, putting in IT fixes across a range of different things. Some of them are quite technical and to do with how we process rotational actions. How do we resolve issues around discrepancies between data between different systems? How do we make sure we have the change of ownership functionality properly recorded and properly functioning?
Those particular problems - and they fall into a range of other categories - have been dealt with one by one over the last number of months. They are now functioning, working well and have been tested. We know they are working now in terms of the completion of the advanced and balancing payments. We are confident they will work and that those elements will be in place now for when the advance payments start in November. Effectively, the hard work is now done. The hard yards have been run because we have the systems in place now and they provide a more long term solution than what was possible over the last 12 to 18 months.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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To come back to the TAMS issue, the Minister has flagged there may be an order of ranking in TAMS going forward. Do we know where that will be at? What will be prioritised and will not be? Obviously, the level of funding is getting a little bit tight in respect of that. How much additional funding would need to be in place to ensure that would not happen, that is, there would not be that order of ranking and to ensure we would be able to fund everything people applied for?
Mr. Paul Savage:
I thank the Deputy. On the ranking selection criteria, we are beginning to look at that now. Would would it look like? Effectively, we have ranking selection criteria that are already laid out for how the scheme operates. They focus on things like the area of the holding. We give certain marks to the size, area and intensity level of the holding. I cannot remember all the criteria off the top of my head, Ms Brennan might add one or two details. The criteria there at the moment would be those we would apply if we were going to start ranking selection in the next tranche or the one after. The question would then be how you deploy those. If there is any consideration of changing the prioritisation around what types of applications will be prioritised or ranked highly, we would then have to look at the ranking selection criteria separately. If we wanted to change them altogether, we would have to go through a separate process of consulting with the CAP strategic plan, CSP, monitoring committee and agreeing on a change to the criteria.
There are already established criteria there from the start of the scheme and the question is whether we will apply those ranking selection criteria as is, if we do that at all, or whether we would in some way consider there might be a need for additional criteria or different kinds of criteria. That is an issue we will be reflecting on over the next number of weeks. That is in the context of the broader flagging the Minister has done around the potential need to apply them in the future.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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If additional money was required, how much?
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Up until now.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Will it take another 10%? More than that?
Mr. Paul Savage:
We really do not know because the issue is around how many of the applications will actually convert into commitments and actual investments. We do not always know that. TAMS is one of those schemes where we do not have real sight of what we will pay upfront because we do not know how many of the approvals will actually convert into investments at the end of the day. That is why we give the general precautionary message in the most recent press release from the Minister that we may have to look at that because we have to manage the budget while at the same time, we have to try to anticipate as best we can what might be the likely conversion rate. That is a difficult thing to do.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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With regard to the sheep welfare scheme and the beef welfare scheme, which have substantial enough funding in them, are there issues and delays there? I have come across a few. What would be the main problems in dealing with those?
Mr. Francis Morrin:
So far, there have been very few delays. In every scheme, there will always be a very small number of people who have delayed payments for whatever reason. Often, that is on the farmer's side. Very occasionally, it is on our side as well. That is just a fact of life with any scheme that is operated anywhere by any Department. In terms of specific things that cause delays on either of those schemes, they are down to individual items. It might be that they have not completed some action. For example, we had people who had delayed completing SCEP training earlier in the year. We extended the date for training to allow farmers an extra chance to get that training done, get it across the line and they would have picked up the payment then.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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There were issues for a lot of farmers that they had to do it online. That was a problem for some of them. They had to do it online, through Microsoft Teams, and a lot of farmers were not equipped for that, particularly elderly farmers.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Those who had problems were not even all elderly.
Mr. Francis Morrin:
Ultimately, however, we have had a very good response to that. There were a lot of advantages in that for farmers because once they had access, whether it was through a son, daughter, niece, nephew or themselves at home, they could do it whenever they wanted. They could complete that training in the middle of the night if they wanted. There are lots of advantages for those. I do not have the exact number here to hand - maybe I do - but we also provided in-person training sessions that we held around the country for those farmers, particularly targeted at areas where we knew there was lower uptake and yet, we had SCEP applicants at that time.
We had a total of 15,370 who did it online by the close of 19 December, which represents 92%. We had another 1,033, or 6%, who did it in person at some of those meetings. We had a total of 318, or 2%, who did not complete the training at all. We gave some of those additional time to complete it when they appealed. That reduced the number to 248 who were removed at the end for not completing the training at all. We really endeavour to provide as much help as we possibly can.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I put a lot of work into these questions. Can the witnesses tell us exactly how many payment deadlines the Department has missed in the previous two years and what consequences were there for any of those people? That is what I am told the whole time about not meeting deadlines of payments for people. Does the Department have those figures, no?
Mr. Francis Morrin:
Very few were missed on my side. There were very low numbers. Our aim is always to pay the maximum number of people as early as possible. We have those commitments built into the farmers' charter, which is there publicly for anybody to see and pull from. We are held to account by the members who agreed to the charter, who are all the farm bodies.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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When I was a very young fella when the first two schemes were brought in by the Department of agriculture, every person could fill out their own form but now nobody can. They all have to have specialist advisers to fill out the forms for them. Is this out of the Department's remit completely? Could Mr. Morrin just give a yes-no answer?
Mr. Francis Morrin:
I cannot answer the Deputy with a simple "Yes" or "No" but I will keep my answer as short as possible to give the Deputy the most time. Anybody can still complete the forms themselves. They absolutely can. They can go online and do it themselves. Of course, most farmers will not want to do that and some 82% of applications for payments happen through advisers. Some of that is the surety and extra knowledge those advisers give. Some of it is that it almost feels like insurance for the farmer. I can totally understand that. Our offices are always open. We ran 16 clinics all around the country this year to help farmers on a one-to-one basis, completely free of charge, to come in and do their applications. Our office in Portlaoise-----
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I know that.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I live beside it. I will tell you why they do. The reason is they depend on the money and they are terrified when they get the letters in, that the Department will cut them. Does Mr. Morrin have a percentage of how many farmers the Department has cut payments to?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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No, he does not have it. I will tell him one thing; there are a hell of a lot of them. My follow-up question, is where does that money go? When the Department takes the money out of my pocket and will not pay me, what does the Department do with it?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Well that means the Department did not put it into my pocket.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Exactly. It was mine. Go ahead.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Where is the money? That is the question I asked. Where is the money?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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No, answer the question. Where is the money?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Does the Department send it back, does it?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Does the Department send it back?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Where does the money go?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The Exchequer, right.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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No, not unclaimed. The Department will not allow a claimant.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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So, it goes back.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Shame on everybody, I tell you.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It would not happen in local authorities. We never sent back money for roads or housing or anything, I tell Mr. Morrin that. This is the problem. I do not want to get excited over it but I will just say that I believe if a person goes in for a scheme, they should be paid the money for the scheme. I also say that I hope Mr. Morrin realises that an awful lot of farm families out there, as has been alluded to by Deputy Fitzmaurice, depend on this money. They depend on this money to pay their bills. Ask anyone they owe money to, it all comes in when it is paid out. That is why I am saying that there lies the frustration. Some people just throw their arms up and say they have had enough of this, and they get out and sell their land. Every time that money comes in you can look at the records. The record will show that a percentage of people exit because they find it is mentally straining, too difficult and that is why I am saying it is awful to think, between all of us here, we fight every day to get more money and then it is sent back. Is that not shocking? In my opinion that would be tolerated nowhere.
I move to my next question. If the delays are due to technical issues, is investment planned to fix or replace the underlying IT systems that are clearly not fit for purpose?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am not interested in any other country, only the people here, the Irish farmers.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I hope they are not sending any of their money back.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to take time from the Senators.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The Senators have not had an opportunity for their first question yet.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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I have a couple of queries on penalties, inspections and one thing and another. The BISS, CRISS, eco, BDGP, sheep welfare and arable schemes were all set up in the new offices and there is no problem with IT. However, there is a problem with forestry and ACRES out of Wexford. Will Mr. Morrin explain that to me? Second, if you have an on the spot inspection with regard to removal of trees or hedgerows on your farm, you automatically incur a 1% penalty for taking out the trees, even though you have planted 2 m back for every tree you took out. This is the case because it happened to me. I would like Mr. Morrin's thoughts on that. You incur a 1% penalty even though you planted two trees back for every metre you took out.
Another thing came to me this morning in respect of a farmer who leases entitlements. A farmer has 20.8 entitlements and gave them to an auctioneer to lease on his behalf. The farmer who leased the entitlements had not enough land to activate those 20.8 entitlements. The farmer who leased the entitlements is now penalised for giving his entitlements to the auctioneer to lease out, because they are the low end of entitlement. They are not on the high end of it. How can it be the case, if I trust an auctioneer and give them my entitlements to lease out, that I get the penalty? In good faith, I gave my entitlements to that auctioneer to lease out the full entitlement. However, when the farm where the entitlement is leased into gets inspected, the penalty comes back on the lessor. I would like some thought on that to see if that is actually the case or if there is a process where that can be appealed. At the moment I have three cases where that is the case. Will Mr. Morrin answer those first?
Mr. Francis Morrin:
If it is okay I will deal with them in reverse order. The Senator is 100% correct on the entitlements matter he raised. Where somebody leases out their entitlements, there is a level of trust there that the farmer who is receiving those entitlements has enough land to activate them. If that farmer has leased in those entitlements and does not have the land for the two years, they will lose those entitlements. We will remove them to the national reserve. It is incumbent on the person leasing out and leasing in to make sure they are fully activated for that period of time. That is in the regulations, in the CSP and that is the way it has been since 2015. This is absolutely something that comes as a shock to farmers who are affected by this but that is the system in place.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Let us say I give out 20.8 entitlements to an auctioneer in good faith. This auctioneer has a licence. He is trading under a licence with the regulator. He has the authority to lease out an entitlement. Does the responsibility not come back to the auctioneer rather than the landowner? I have employed him to lease out the entitlement. He has charged me to lease out my entitlement, so why would we not take it off the farmer's entitlement?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The Senators have been called for a vote, so they need a speedy response.
Mr. Francis Morrin:
Okay. On that point, whatever argument there might be between the farmer, who is the person leasing out, and the auctioneer is a civil matter between the two of them. That is fine. However, in terms of the regulations on what happens to the entitlements, as I have outlined already that is exactly what will happen. They will revert. It is not that they are penalised. It is that the entitlements are removed to the national reserve.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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They are penalised.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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If an entitlement is worth €425, and you take it off somebody-----
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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It is a penalty.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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What I am saying is, can that entitlement not be taken off the entitlement of the farmer who leased them in, even though if it is of a higher value?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Do we see this as a flaw in the system?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Right, if it is a very small number of farmers, can it be rectified?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Will Mr. Savage explain if I am right in saying that when BISS, CRISS and all of those have their mapping done, when the Department imposes its maps down on it, that they were not adding up? This is what we have been told. Was it that the Department got different contractors to do its digitisation or mapping than Portlaoise had?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Did the Department get different contractors?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Was there a problem with the layering?
Mr. Paul Savage:
Yes, it is about having consistency between the two. Somebody may submit particular details on a map in the context of a BISS application. We started by reference back to BISS applications in 2022, if I am not mistaken, in terms of the ACRES applications in 2023. When it came to making the payments in ACRES in 2023, we had to effectively compare any changes on the BISS in 2023 against what we were receiving in ACRES. We have to try to make sure there is an alignment between the data that comes in fresh from BISS and the data that ACRES is working off. To be honest, that is a response to the application that comes in on BISS. It is a response to changes that have happened on the ground in the context of the farmer's activities. We have to make sure that is incorporated into our systems, so we are paying accurately and appropriately when it comes to ACRES.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Was it ever considered to do it like the French? The French department got a loan from its equivalent of the Department of public expenditure, paid the farmers the money, and when it was rectified paid it back.
Why was not that done for a few years? It is like a snake in the grass. The Department will get you sooner or later because people apply for payments every year. So if something is drawn wrong then the Department will get you down the road one way or the other.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The Department officials are not snakes.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I did not call them snakes but gave the equivalent that the Department can wait for you and get you.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that the Deputy used a metaphor.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Am I right that the average payment was €4,300? So if even €4,000 was given every year and a deal done with the Department of public expenditure and when it was rectified to pull it back, would that initiative not have saved an awful lot of hassle? The French did it in 2016.
Mr. Paul Savage:
It is always easier to be wise in hindsight in terms of what might have worked and might not have worked. We tried to maintain the integrity of the overall system by proceeding in the normal way in terms of the co-funding element with the national financing. We made the decision in early 2024 that we had to make an interim payment. That interim payment was essentially paid out of national funds and we then caught up in terms of the co-funding, out of EU funding in 2024. We adopted a mechanism that allowed us to take the pressure off farmers at the time who were obviously waiting on their payments that had not been forthcoming from their participation in 2023. So that €4,000 or €5,000 that we made available to those people served the same purpose. Effectively we paid them upfront. When we had calculated the full amount due, in terms of the value of the normal ACRES contract, we reconciled that against the money that they had been paid upfront. In effect, it was a means to take the pressure off farmers in the short term until we resolved definitively in the long term.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Farmers would be entitled in the two years of 2023 and 2024 to €10,000 where they got €4,000 or €5,000.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Some farmers would have to get more money.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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The Minister has agreed that he would set up an IT system because of the storm in terms of all roofs of sheds. Has that been done yet? When is it going to be done?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I know but when?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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When is later?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Can Mr. Savage say whether that will happen in September, October, November or December?
Mr. Paul Savage:
It will be before the end of the year. I do not think we can be any more specific on that at the moment because we have to work through the systems development on that, at the moment, and that has to be put in place with all of the other things that we are doing in parallel on TAMS. We will be able to give a more definitive date in due course.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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A sum of €5 million was allocated for the scheme for young farmers because of an agreement in the programme for Government. It is continually sitting there so what is happening with the scheme? When will the Government try and help those young farmers?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes.
Mr. Francis Morrin:
Yes, a sum of €5 million was allocated for the scheme in budget 2025. We aim to have the money distributed by the end of this year. We have already opened and closed a survey since. We are just at the end of an analysis of the survey responses before launching a scheme and I do not have a date for its launch yet. We aim to open and close the process and pay that before the end of this year.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I see a problem with that. Do the applicants know the guidelines for what they will get grant aided for? Is it the standard of roofs they had, a Department standard or what? Does the Department know what standards it will demand?
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Yes.
Mr. Francis Morrin:
That aspect is being worked on at the moment in the context of the preparation of the scheme. The specifications, how the scheme will work and how it will fit in terms of existing structures is being worked through at the moment. We will be able to make that clearer once the scheme has been put together.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Jesus, the Department would want to hurry on if, as has been said, that the money will be spent by the end of the year. It takes time to build a shed and erect a roof. Such work is not as easy as turning the next page in a book.
Mr. Paul Savage:
Yes. Again, we have to be careful and clear about what the specifications will be because there are particular requirements in terms of for instance, erecting or replacing roofs on an existing structure that we will have to be very careful about in terms of safety and other considerations, and functionality. We have experts who are working on that internally in the Department in terms of making sure that those specifications are drawn up appropriately. That will form part of the work that goes on over the next couple of months before the launch of the scheme.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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All right. I have a question on GAEC 2. GAEC is a funny kind of an acronym but it might not be funny before we will be finished with it. There was only a couple of days before GAEC 2 was announced and maps were made available. Applicants only had two days in between to apply so some farmers are worried that maps may not be correct. Will the Department show discretion if maps are wrong and need to be clarified?
Mr. Francis Morrin:
GAEC stands for good agricultural and environmental condition. Yes, it is an odd sounding acronym. Yes, we will have an appeals system where a farmer says that land is not GAEC 2, is not peatland and does not meet that definition. It is important to say that the application of GAEC 2 has very little effect on the vast majority of farmers and they can continue to far as they would have as before. There are a small number of farmers who will want to do extra drainage or carry out some action where the scheme would affect them. When it comes to carrying those appeals, to correct if there is an anomaly, we will have to prioritise for those farmers who are waiting to do something that they need to get done on that land. The vast majority of farmers will continue farming as always and this will not affect them at all. We do have to prioritise that for sure.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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It has been stated that 96% of advance payments have been made for ACRES. How much remains to be paid?
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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How much remains to be paid?
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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How long will that take?
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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How long will it take?
Mr. Paul Savage:
I do not know the individual circumstances of each individual case. We are working through the cases literally one by one. We are getting through all of the remaining cases and we will process them as quickly as we can. I expect that most of the progress on those will made over the next number of weeks.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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My father was using his tractor to transport a load of hay for a farmer called Mickey Reilly. When the hay fell off my father was given out to with the words "You're best is not good enough and you'll have to improve." The same goes for the Department. It will have to improve because the delay is terrible and there are people who owe money to other people. Farmers depend on this money.
On TAMS, applicants have told me that it was not a requirement to paint shed doors in order to qualify for the scheme yet they have been refused because the doors are only galvanised and they never thought they had to paint them. Several applicants have told me they have been disqualified because of the condition of the doors. Please explain why the scheme is unclear.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Yes, that is fine.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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All the rest of the shed is painted and is designed to be painted but the specifications did not say anything about painting the doors.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We can have the Department correspond with the clerk on the matter.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Before moving on, there was a very reasonable question on the remaining ones. When can they reasonably expect to be paid? "As soon as possible" is kind of like far, far away in Neverland. Is Mr. Savage setting some kind of reasonable target? Is it his intention the Department will have them finished for the end of the month, by the end of August, before the ploughing or before the end of the year? Surely the Department has some target. I am not looking for Mr. Savage to cut a stick to beat himself with, but it is reasonable that the Department have some ambition or some kind of target it can tell people they will realistically be paid by.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that, but-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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But it is a reasonable request to try to put some kind of closing date on it.
Mr. Paul Savage:
Yes, but it is difficult to be specific because there are specific circumstances associated with each individual case. Some will have one particular issue. Some, once the issue is resolved, may have another knock-on issue we have to resolve. Until we process the payments and do what we call a roll-over, where we refresh the data for payments every week, it is at that point we see what the remaining issue is in respect of individual cases. On some occasions when we resolve a particular issue or get it ready for payment there may be something else that is causing a problem, some other document that has not been received or whatever it might be, that then might hold that up a little longer. It is just that it is difficult for us to be specific in advance about what happens in each of those cases, but where they come up and where we come across them weekly our teams in Wexford are working specifically and in a very dedicated way on getting them resolved. We have a dedicated team already, and it has been there for a while, on the 2023 payments. We are absolutely focused on processing the remaining payments as quickly as possible. That is our target. We will get all the remaining ones out as quickly as possible.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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With the figures the officials gave us for ACRES for 2023, there are 278 farmers who got nothing. I am assuming that is what that means. They got no payment at all. Out of those, how often was the issue with the farmer and how often was it with the Department? I am assuming if you got paid in 2024 you had no issues, but how many of the 278 who were at fault have been contacted? Has the Department tried to work with them to iron out their issues? What supports have they got, basically?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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It is not a part the farmer has forgotten to do.
Mr. Paul Savage:
No, in general they have done what they need to do. They are in change of ownership in the sense of moving from one ownership status to another and we need to have our systems updated so we can handle that change of ownership. That is why, as I mentioned earlier, we have been trying to ensure we get that in place fundamentally and that it is working properly, because it affects a large number of people. Ownership is changing all the time and we have to be able to respond to that and be pretty proactive in how we handle it. That is what we are doing in putting that fundamental functionality in place. Those cases are affected by that particular circumstance. We have been in touch with farmers. We are in touch with farmers, in fact, about all the outstanding cases that are there. We have been trying to find out from them just what the situation is at the moment and telling them what we are doing to try to fix it. We are also trying to establish exactly of the 578 - and they may well be in the 299 as well - how many are potentially no longer participants in the scheme or are no longer interested in continuing in the scheme. Some of the calls we have made indicate there are issues with the application being lodged in the first place even though people did not actually intend to be in the scheme at all. Again, there are a range of issues, but we are establishing those circumstances from direct contact with the relevant people.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Is it only recently the people affected like that have seen it flagged that the officials are trying to do this or was it flagged back in December 2023 that the Department has an issue here?
Mr. Paul Savage:
Yes. Not all of them obviously, because it was only as we worked through those cases over the last 12 months that more came to light or the specific circumstances came to light. We would have been in touch with people either through correspondence from them about the delay in the scheme and the payments, which we would have responded to, or as I said more recently in our more proactive engagement with them to find out exactly what the circumstances are.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Then once that is cracked they will get their 2024 payments and it will all flow in together.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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A lot of the schemes finish in 2027. With new schemes going forward, how does Mr. Savage see the administrative and IT sides of this being worked and worked smoothly so farmers actually understand it and the Departments understand it as well? New schemes get complicated as they go on. How does Mr. Savage see it being fixed so we do not have these issues in future?
Mr. Paul Savage:
It is fundamentally about preparation and anticipation a little further in advance this time compared with previous rounds of CAP reform. I mentioned earlier the typical cycle in CAP reform and how our CAP strategic plan is approved at a particular time, then we have to move on and design the systems but of course we have to deploy the new schemes as well so we end up in a situation where the scheme is rolling out at the same time we are putting the administrative and IT structures in place. Our preference would be to have the IT and administrative structures in place before we start the scheme.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Whose fault is it that everything has run so quickly and as if we do not have any time left? With the next system it needs to be better and to be there in advance. Whose fault is it that these schemes come out and are thrown at people at the last minute?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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That is not good enough, though.
Mr. Paul Savage:
We are at the mercy of a political process in the first place in terms of the actual negotiation of the CAP reform, so there is a whole raft of things. We will see a regulation being published and I hope we will see, or at least the indication is, the Commission will come forward with a new CAP proposal next month on the budget and on the CAP. There is a negotiating process that then goes on with member states and we do not know what the outcome of that is going to be-----
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Or how long it is going to take.
Mr. Paul Savage:
-----and there is a lack of clarity for a long period. Then even when we get to having the CAP strategic plan agreed and the regulations in place there is still a certain amount of flexibility for member states or options for them in how that is translated into reality. That requires engagement with stakeholders on the ground in each member state, which we did very extensively over the last CAP strategic plan. When we have done that and got to the point where we know what our scheme looks like and how we are going to implement it, it is then a case of everybody wanting to have the scheme delivered immediately-----
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Now.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I have one really quick question. Are other EU countries having the same issues?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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They are. Okay.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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There will be a further opportunity based on the time we have.
I call Deputy Lawless.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach. It is quite incredible there is this major difficulty for farmers where they have been waiting for payment for over two years and there is no one to blame. We are here over an hour and the officials have used the word "accountability" but there is no one to blame. If I do not deliver there is a cost, but it seems like if the officials do not deliver and there is an issue nobody is willing to stand up and say they made a mistake. That is incredible. I asked in the last session why the officials did not come out and tell the farmers the issue was with them and with the Department and not with the farmers, because that is what the understanding was on the ground, but it never happened. It is frustrating there is no culture of accountability. This word has been bandied around and said several times by the officials and the members, but accountability means something. It seems from the Department it means nothing. Nobody is willing to stand up and say they made a mistake, they underestimated the difficulties and they failed to communicate that to farmers. It is just not good enough. Does Mr. Savage want to come in on that?
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Did the Department tell them they would be waiting two years for money or that the problem was on its end?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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The Department did not tell them.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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The Department did not tell them.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Will Deputy Fitzmaurice let Mr. Savage answer?
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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This is the problem. There is still a lack of accountability, honesty and transparency. As of two or three months ago, farmers still did not know where the problem was. There has not been a culture of transparency in relation to this. Even today, we are still not getting the answers. The Department knew about the problems with ACRES from the end of 2023. We all make mistakes but at what stage did the Department or Minister issue a statement to say there were major difficulties with ACRES, the scale of which was enormous, and that farmers would be waiting a year or two for payment? That did not happen.
Mr. Paul Savage:
If I may answer in full, we could not say that people would be waiting a year or two years because it was not our intention that anybody would be waiting that long. We were working through the problems as they presented and trying to get through them as quickly as we could. That is still the work that is going on. We are pretty much at the end of that process now. We were very clear about the problems with the payments at the end of 2023. When we saw the numbers we were going to pay before the end of 2030, we were very clear in communicating that to people. If I may just finish, we could not say at that point exactly how long it was going to take to resolve all of the issues. I was not going to-----
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Who was the Department clear to? Was it the farmers or the Minister? Who did not-----
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Did the Department write to the farmers?
Mr. Paul Savage:
We wrote to farmers in early 2024 in the context of preparing an interim payment for those who had not received a payment at the end of 2023. When we were making those interim payments, we wrote to every farmer three times. We first wrote to tell them about the problems in the payment system, that they were affected by them and that this was the solution we were proposing. We then wrote to them at the point in time at which the interim payment was made, explaining what the amount was, the fact that their ACRES payments would be calculated in the normal way in due course and that, when it was calculated, it might be higher or lower than the €4,000 or €5,000 we gave them as an interim payment. We were clear to farmers about what we were doing. When we calculated the actual ACRES payments and began issuing them in June, we got back to farmers to tell them the exact situation as regards their ACRES calculation, how it compared to their interim payment and the situation they were left in as regards overpayment or otherwise. We communicated very extensively with the affected farmers. At the same time, we were moving ahead with getting the payments out to those whom we could pay. We followed on with the calculation of the ultimate ACRES payment, which could be offset against the interim payment. We were very clear but at no point in time could we say it was going to take another year or two years or tell them the point in time at which we would be finished with the payments. We were very much focused on resolving the issues and dealing with the problems in respect of processing.
As has been said many times, it is easy to say that the IT systems or issues were at fault but a lot of work goes on between the business and IT sides of the house to make sure that things are right. People are developing programmes and software all the time. These have to be tested. It bounces back and forth. We have to be absolutely clear that things are working. It is a combined effort. When those systems are put in place, they work effectively for everybody. Everybody takes responsibility for that. The Minister and the previous Minister have been clear that it was unacceptable that farmers were suffering those delays and that the Department was doing everything it could to make those payments as quickly as possible. We have been true to that. We have been putting those systems and solutions in place. That is almost complete.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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We will go back to the first question I asked. The BISS, the CRISS, the welfare scheme and all of the rest did not have a problem. There was no problem with those new schemes that were set up. The problem was with ACRES. Who is taking responsibility for the forestry sector and the ACRES sector? As some have said here, there is no accountability. If we find out who is in charge of those two sectors, we will find out who is responsible.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Do not interrupt me. Do not interrupt me for a second.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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If Mr. Savage was-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Senator, let him answer.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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I just want to ask a question. If Mr. Savage was the person in charge-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Let him answer please.
Mr. Paul Savage:
Comparison between the Pillar 1, BISS and CRISS payments and the ACRES payments or between the Portlaoise payments and the Wexford payments has been made several times. I see everybody in the Department as in this together. We are all trying to get payments out to farmers as quickly as we can. The distinction is probably not helpful. I have to point to the reality that the ACRES scheme and environmental schemes in general over recent years have been more complex. They are more complex than Pillar 1 schemes. There is more to do within them. There are more criteria to be satisfied and more validations and checks to be carried out before payments are made across those schemes because of the complexity associated with them. They are very different schemes. The point at which things are done over the course of the year has become more complex. The system has become more complex because we now have a results-based system in place for ACRES. The nature of the individual schemes the Senator is talking about is very different. They require a whole range of other specialties. They require different types of IT functionality and different processing regimes. On the ACRES side, that system and our system are intricately connected in how they work. We need to make sure the two are in sync. It is a very big exercise but the nature of the schemes is very different. It is much more complex on the environmental side than on the Pillar 1 side. The complexities and delays we have experienced are associated with that. I will be very clear. As I have said a couple of times, the Department and I accept responsibility for the scheme not having been rolled out in the way we would have liked and in the way it should have been rolled out and we are taking steps to resolve that.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Was staffing an issue? Let us be truthful. We are in committee so let us be truthful about this.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Were there enough staff?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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It is a yes-no answer.
Mr. Paul Savage:
I rarely turn on the radio without hearing some organisation saying it needs more staff. If we could get more staff, we would like to but you do what you can within the staffing complement you have. We have taken major steps on ACRES in moving additional people into the scheme over the past 12 months. We have restructured and streamlined the way we are organised. We have tried to simplify the way we do things to get the payments out more efficiently. We have worked hand in glove with our IT counterparts and our colleagues on the Pillar 1 side to resolve those issues that need to be resolved. I would love to get more staff tomorrow or next week, as would anybody in any business or enterprise across the economy, but that is not possible. We have to work with what we can get our hands on. We are doing that as effectively as we can. There are challenges there and, as I have said, the complexities make it difficult. We need to ensure we are using the resources effectively. I believe we are using them very effectively. The progress we have seen over recent months reflects that.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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How many people are getting paid based on last week's figures?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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What is the rough figure?
Mr. Paul Savage:
I am just doing a quick mental tot. This week, we will have between 3,000 and 3,500 cases paid. Last week, we had in the region of 2,000 or 2,500 cases paid. Those payments fall across different categories. There are the 2023 balancing payments, which I have mentioned, the 2024 advance payments and the 2024 balancing payments.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Am I correct that, if a farmer was cleared for 2023, payment will come automatically in 2024?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Of the 2,400 Mr. Savage mentioned, some will be paid a double lump. Is that correct?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Before my time is up, I will be very clear on something. We are going to get away with this now because farmers will accept it if they get their payment now. Can Mr. Savage guarantee us that this nonsense will not happen next year and that it will be solved? I need a commitment from him. Will he stand up and say that he has it resolved and that he will take responsibility if happens again next year?
Mr. Paul Savage:
This will not happen next year. I said that earlier. We now have all the systems in place to allow us to make the payments. Part of the reason for the delays this time around is that we have been absolutely determined to make sure those fixes were in place this year. We expect the situation to be much improved next year.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Savage for his honesty.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Each speaker has had a second opportunity except Deputy Cooney.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the assurance but I am a bit concerned that Mr. Savage is saying it was more of staff issue than a technical issue. Will the staff be there? I am a bit concerned about the replies we are getting. Are we going to be okay for staff because we do not want to see this happening again in 2025 or 2026? What has been going on for the past couple of years has been a disgrace. Now is the time to get it right, move forward and work with the farming community. That is the least they deserve. Will Mr. Savage give me that assurance again?
Mr. Paul Savage:
I do not want to be taken up incorrectly. I was not saying it was a staff issue. I acknowledged the fact that, if we could get more resources, we would be happy to take them. I am sure my colleagues right across the Department would say they would happily accept more resources tomorrow if they could get them.
What I said was that there is a staffing resource issue, an IT issue and an administrative issue. There are many issues we have to resolve to get payments out but we are using the staffing and resources we have as effectively as we can. We are improving on this all the time and streamlining our processes. Our staff in Wexford have been doing a fantastic job despite what might be picked up from broader comments being made. They are doing a fantastic job under very difficult circumstances and they are expert in and absolutely committed to what they do. They have been doing overtime and making a considerable additional effort to get the payments out. I believe we are using staff and resources effectively. If I were asked whether I would take on more staff next week, I would, of course. We could do with a lot more things and with a lot more breathing space, but we are working ahead with what we have right across the board, be it in respect of staffing or IT resourcing, and making improvements all the time.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I compliment the Department on the number of payments made over the past couple of months. We do not want to see a delay again. Could Mr. Savage give more assurance? How many payments are still outstanding?
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Could these be looked into sooner rather than later? Constituents have been on to me about this, even today. They probably knew this meeting was being held this evening. Could the Department look into the matter and try to get the payments out sooner rather than later?
Mr. Paul Savage:
From our point of view, it is an absolute priority to get the payments out sooner rather than later. Doing this results in knock-on benefits in terms of getting balancing payments out sooner, so it is absolutely a priority of ours to make the payments as quickly as we can. It also allows us to increase the overall amount of money going out to farmers, because the advance payments are 85% of the payments for farmers overall. That is our absolute priority.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Savage. This is a very expensive time of the year for farmers, as we are well aware, so it would be great if the payments could be made sooner rather than later.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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We have been around the houses with this, with every one of us asking the questions and the officials trying to answer. The one threat we can make is that if the Department does not pay the farmers fairly soon, we will have to bring the officials in again.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I have a fair suggestion. Could the Department pay every man who is owed money half of what he is owed tomorrow and sort through the remainder at the pace it is going, or faster if it can? This is a fair request at this stage. If I made this proposal, I would get many to second it here. It would be fair at this stage to those owed money for 2024. People are in a bad way without the money. They have budgeted on the basis of getting it. Is what I suggest possible?
Mr. Paul Savage:
I thank the Deputy. The short answer is “No”, for a couple of reasons. The Minister referred to the rationale last month when he was before the committee, and I mentioned it earlier. It is that we want to ensure the systems in place are fully in place, that all the elements are working and that they are fit for purpose and permanent so they will work again for the next round of payments. The Minister was clear that he did not want to have temporary solutions, fast or quick-and-dirty-type payments, or manual payments because he wanted to ensure the permanent fixes were in place. To be frank, at this point we are almost at the end of paying people. With regard to the effort involved even in paying people half the payment upfront, we would not know exactly what would be paid in each case until we processed the full thing. We do not know exactly what the money would be. When we would finally calculate the payments, we would be in the same situation we were in last year with interim payments, whereby the Department could end up having to recoup money from some. It creates many issues and problems and does not deal with the situation permanently.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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When people receive this money, they will be getting two payments in one year and therefore paying double the tax. That will create a difficulty.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The point on the tax was raised earlier and I believe we should discuss it in private.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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All right. I thank the Chairman and all the officials who have come in here. I am aware they are doing their best but, as a man said to my father long ago, their best is not good enough and they will have to improve.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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We have gone around the houses a fair bit on this. The frustration, certainly with regard to ACRES, is that there was such a long delay and uncertainty as to when farmers would get paid and where they stood. Farmers could not get through to the Department and could not get any answers. They were on to politicians and everyone else to try to get answers for them, but they could not get answers for them either. Apart from not getting the payments out, the issue with the IT system and so on, there is a problem with communication and being able to deal appropriately with farmers who have a legitimate grievance. This should be reflected on. Work needs to be done to ensure it does not happen again, regardless of the payment.
I take the point that each time a new environmental scheme or CAP comes out, there are differences, but there are many aspects with no differences. The schemes usually pertain to the same plots of land and the same farmers. It should not be that hard, even if the system must account for ten separate actions that have to happen. Even if the next scheme has ten different actions, addressing each is just a box-taking exercise from the computer’s point of view. Much more work could be done to prepare for new schemes so we will not find ourselves in circumstances in which a new system has to be built to match each of them. A system should be built that is relatively capable of dealing with whatever scheme is designed. That is one of the big lessons we should have learned from GLAS. It is very disappointing that it was not learned at the time of that scheme.
I take the point that we will deal with farmers getting double payments each year, but this is another serious issue that needs to be examined. If payment is delayed, a farmer might get a double payment in a given year, or a triple one in some cases if the delay is sufficiently long. That is a serious issue that also needs to be examined and worked on.
Deputy Fitzmaurice mentioned the young farmer scheme, for which money is sitting there. We need clarity on how payments will be made under it. While we are aware the money is available and that there is some consultation on the scheme, what is the proposal? Do we have any indication as to how the money will be paid and the conditions farmers will have to meet? These points must be addressed for the forgotten farmers. If a system has to be built for an announced scheme again, it will be very disappointing. We need to have work done on this in early preparation.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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A vote has been called and our time is limited. I suggest that if members ask their questions, there will be an opportunity to have written answers submitted.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State, Deputy Cummins, is introducing legislation whereby farmers will not have to have planning permission for underground tanks. It will be in by September, or October at the latest. Will the Department be giving the TAMS grant once the Minister of State signs off on that whereby a farmer will not have to have planning permission for a tank under the ground?
I have another question I wanted to ask, and it does not reflect on any of the officials. There are huge problems with simple things. A person in ACRES with a cover crop was inspected after cattle had broken into it, through no fault of his, and eaten it.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a question?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I cannot get an answer for him. This has been going on for three months.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should send the details.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I have a quick question. I ran out of time when asking it earlier. Will the officials give an update on whether it is possible to put funding in place to help landowners to cut roadside hedges and take down trees? The officials will be well aware of the cost given the health and safety requirements. My request is in the interest of safety on the roads. Would it be possible to look into this matter and see whether we can move it forward?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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If I am correct, 558 farmers have not been paid for 2023. Is that the figure that was given to me?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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They have received no money since day one.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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What have they been given?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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They are still not sorted. There are 558 of them.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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There are 558 of them and I am asking whether, within the next two months, the Department will have them brought up to date. It is a simple yes-no answer.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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I want to go back to what I asked earlier. Is it mandatory that everyone incurs a 1% penalty on inspection?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We have the questions but we need to head for a vótáil. I ask the witnesses to forward to the clerk responses to the unanswered questions. On behalf of the committee I thank the witnesses for their contributions today. We have had a massive question and answer session. Gabhaim míle buíochas leis na finnéithe as an eolas a chuir siad ar fáil agus as na freagraí. As there are no further matters for discussion today the meeting stands adjourned.