Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 19 June 2025
Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community
Funding Strategy for Traveller-Specific Accommodation: Discussion
2:00 am
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We have received no apologies. No members are attending remotely. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
On the agenda for the first part of today's meeting is an engagement with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to discuss the matter of funding for Traveller-specific accommodation. Before we proceed to our engagement with witnesses, I put on the record that Senator Flynn was elected Leas-Chathaoirleach of this committee at the committee's most recent private meeting. I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate Senator Flynn on her appointment and wish her all the best in her role. I invite Senator Flynn to make some remarks, if she wishes.
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the Chair. I look forward to doing the work with my colleagues on the committee over the next few years. It is a cross-party committee. It is great to have members on the committee who care for the Traveller community. I look forward to meaningful work going forward and, most important, actions that may save the lives of some Travellers.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I invite Mr. Patrick O’Sullivan, principal officer, to make the Department's opening statement, following which we will have a questions and answers session.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for their invitation to address the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community. I appreciate the opportunity to update the committee on the delivery of accommodation for Travellers and the associated expenditure. Addressing Traveller accommodation is a priority for the Government and the Department. I welcome engagement with the committee on this issue. I am joined by my colleagues, Ms Karen Murphy, assistant principal officer, and Ms Samantha Kenny, assistant principal officer, both in the social inclusion unit which I head.
The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage's policy in respect of accommodation for Travellers is underpinned by dedicated legislation. The Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act 1998 provides that housing authorities have a statutory responsibility for the assessment of the accommodation needs of Travellers and the preparation, adoption and implementation of multi-annual Traveller accommodation programmes in their areas. In line with the statutory framework, the Department must ensure that there are adequate structures and supports in place to assist local authorities in providing such accommodation, including a national framework of policy, legislation and funding.
Each local authority prepares a Traveller accommodation programme, TAP, within which it sets targets for the provision of Traveller accommodation. The TAP sets out the plan for local authority investment priorities over a five-year period and informs the basis of delivery of all forms of Traveller accommodation. The Department issued guidelines to local authorities to assist the preparation of their new Traveller accommodation programmes. The new round of TAPs runs for the period 2025 to 2029. The Department is committed to supporting the local authorities in delivering on their TAPs ambitions.
The TAPs are now being implemented, with local authorities managing the delivery and allocation of all Traveller accommodation under these important five-year rolling programmes, which are designed to meet the existing and projected accommodation needs of Travellers in their areas. The Department will continue to facilitate, encourage and support the local authorities in the delivery of their TAPs.
In 2020, to facilitate ease of access to capital funding, the Department changed the way in which capital funding is allocated. The Department no longer allocates specific budgets to individual local authorities from the funding available overall. Instead, it is open to all local authorities to apply for and draw down funds at any time throughout the year. This is actively encouraged by the Department and has led to a significant improvement in the drawdown of funding and investment by local authorities. I am pleased to report that Traveller-specific accommodation funding has been fully drawn down by local authorities over the past five years, from 2020 to 2024, resulting in capital investment of over €100 million in Traveller-specific accommodation.
In addition to this capital spend, some €30 million was spent through current expenditure in the same period supporting local authorities in the management and maintenance of Traveller-specific accommodation, particularly halting sites. This combined significant multi-annual capital investment and current funding of over €130 million delivered high-quality Traveller-specific accommodation and supported local authorities in managing accommodation in the five-year period to the end 2024. This investment by the Department through the local authorities demonstrates strong commitment to Traveller accommodation. In budget 2025, increased capital of €23 million and current funding of €7 million was made available, demonstrating the ongoing commitment to delivering accommodation for Travellers.
The Traveller accommodation unit’s budget is provided for Traveller-specific accommodation, such as group housing schemes and halting sites. As such, funding available for and spent on accommodation solutions for Travellers is much broader than the often reported spend under the Traveller-specific accommodation budget.
A programme board, established in 2020, continues to oversee implementation of recommendations from the 2019 report of the expert group on Traveller accommodation. The programme board includes two Traveller representatives, two County and City Management Association representatives and two representatives from the Department. It is chaired by the independent chair of the National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committee, Mr. Niall Crowley.
The programme board has already completed work on a number of the report's recommendations and updates are published on the Department's website. Examples of the work of the programme board completed to date include amendment of the social housing assessment regulations with effect from March 2022 to include a Traveller identifier. This is allowing for a more evidenced-based approach to the provision of Traveller accommodation, giving local authorities better data in planning their TAPs and setting targets. There are many work programmes under way through the programme board, addressing issues such as the design of Traveller-specific accommodation and improving data relating to accommodation provision.
Accommodation for Traveller households is provided through a range of housing options. The 2023 estimate of Traveller households shows that 79% of Travellers live in standard accommodation, including local authority and approved housing body, AHB, housing and housing assistance payment, HAP, and rental accommodation scheme, RAS, supported tenancies in the private rented sector. Funding for these housing supports is provided through the respective programme budget lines.
The accommodation of Travellers in standard housing has grown considerably since the publication of the 2019 Traveller accommodation expert review report. In 2019, there were 4,461 Traveller households in local authority and AHB social housing. This number grew to 5,904 Traveller households by 2023, representing a 32% increase.
The incidence of Traveller families in homeless emergency accommodation is recognised as a significant challenge. Together with local authorities, which have statutory responsibilities for the provision of homeless accommodation and in tackling homelessness, the Department continues to work to address this challenge in conjunction with the broader challenge of homelessness. The Minister has appointed a representative from a national Traveller organisation to the national homeless action committee.
The preferential and affordable caravan loan scheme for Traveller families was rolled out as a nationwide pilot scheme across all local authorities in 2022. The pilot scheme was continued until March last year. A total of 169 applications were approved across the pilot scheme. Following review of the pilot scheme, a national preferential caravan loan scheme was launched at the end of last year with an allocation of €4 million in funding available in 2025, with similar levels of funding anticipated in future years, subject to the annual Estimates process. The new scheme substantially increases the loan limits from €40,000 to a maximum of €80,000 in certain circumstances, for example, where additional space is required to improve mobility of a disabled person. This scheme continues to have a positive impact, enabling local authorities to offer preferential, discounted loans for the purchase of trailers as a primary residence, improving living conditions significantly for those on halting sites.
We will strive to continue the good progress being made because the provision of Traveller-specific accommodation is central to ensuring we continue to improve the lives of Travellers. Current progress demonstrates the drive and commitment which the Department, in conjunction with local authorities, continues to foster. This work relates to the provision of both social housing and Traveller-specific accommodation.
I welcome any questions the committee may wish to raise.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Mr. O'Sullivan. I will open the floor to questions. I note there is a vote under way in the Seanad. I do not know if that affects the two Senators present.
Dessie Ellis (Dublin North-West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Mr. O'Sullivan for his presentation. The system by which local authorities access funding has changed. I am curious about how that is monitored. In the past, local authorities did not draw down funding allocated to them. Is adherence to the need to draw down funding being monitored? We are relying on the local authorities to draw down this funding but certain local authorities have not been good at doing so in the past.
The new caravan loan scheme is quite well used in my area. I still receive lots of requests about it. There is a new round coming up, as far as I am aware. The loan is limited to a maximum of €80,000, according to Mr. O'Sullivan. I ask him to elaborate on that.
There is so much disparity between Travellers, depending on whether they are in halting sites or in ordinary accommodation or in receipt of a payment under the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, or rent supplement. How do we get an overall picture of the number of people in the Traveller community looking for accommodation? Does the Department single that out in order to get a view as to where this is going?
In recent years, the number of Traveller families going into local authority housing has been huge compared to the size of the halting sites or the amount of housing in areas such as Villa Park, which is overcrowded. We are supposed to be building new units, and they have been promised, but it has been going on for a long time with Dublin City Council. I am very annoyed that it has just been sitting there for the past number of years. I would like to get picture of how these things are monitored.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
In changing the allocation, we do not allocate a specific amount. The Oireachtas votes a Revised Estimates Volume amount, which was €23 million this year. Effectively, this is on the basis of local authorities making applications to the Department directly. My team engages directly and bilaterally with local authorities to manage these applications and pay them as they go through the process. Clearly, we want to ensure all local authorities draw from this and we engage bilaterally. Therefore, we have meetings with local authorities on a bilateral basis. As much as possible, these take place within the one year but, obviously, Traveller accommodation programmes are the strategic plans to which local authorities operate and they are over five years. They then have targets within that period. For example, there are more than 3,500 targets for delivery in the next round of Traveller accommodation. It is very much a day-to-day process in direct engagement. It is about ensuring that the drawdown is carried through and the local authorities fulfil their obligations from the point of view of public expenditure and demonstrate on a vouched basis where the money is being spent. We will pay it accordingly once we assess it internally in the Department.
With regard to the caravan loan scheme, we listened very carefully to the previous committee, its members and the advocacy groups. A pilot programme was introduced in 2021 that was very narrowly focused. We then moved to a more nationwide programme when we extended the pilot. Towards the end of last year, we did a full review of it. The Minister engaged with the Department of public expenditure and got approval to establish a national caravan loan scheme. This will be critical. It will now be an established national programme. We have €4 million available this year out of our budget of €23 million. Initially, we allocated it on the basis of 50 trailers at approximately €80,000 each. Some local authorities state they do not need to spend that amount. In those cases, we will reallocate the money. Ultimately, we will maximise the expenditure of the €4 million this year. Importantly, there will be roll-over on an annual basis. We expect that similar levels of funding will be available next year and we will go through the application process again.
What we do with regard to the allocation is use the data. This comes to the point Deputy Ellis made regarding halting sites, standards and getting the overall picture. In the first instance, we have the annual estimate. We use the data from the annual estimate to determine which local authorities have unauthorised halting sites and which have authorised halting sites. We allocate the money on a proportionate basis on the needs identified at national level. Ultimately, the local authority has the local experience and engagement.
I have already mentioned the significant change made in 2022 when we added a Traveller identifier to the social housing application form. Effectively, the Housing Agency completes a summary of social housing assessments annually, with the most recent being for 2024. Overall, we have identified that approximately 1,000 Travellers are in need of housing. Interestingly enough, more than 40% of that number are looking for standard housing. When it comes to Traveller-specific housing, there is a very low percentage preference. We are speaking about a 2% preference for a halting site and a 1.3% preference for Traveller group housing schemes. Back in 2022, only 124 Traveller households were identified. We knew it would take a couple of years for it to bed in. The Housing Agency works with the local authorities and practitioners at local level to ensure the local authorities are best prepared to engage with individual applicants so that they complete the form as comprehensively as possible. This enables local authorities to be well equipped to understand the full needs required.
Dessie Ellis (Dublin North-West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have another question.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There will be a second round of questions.
Dessie Ellis (Dublin North-West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It relates to what Mr. O'Sullivan has said. Does the Department monitor every local authority? There are local authorities not applying for anything to do with Traveller accommodation.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I ask Deputy Ellis to save his question for the second round.
Dessie Ellis (Dublin North-West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is relevant to what Mr. O'Sullivan has been speaking about.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I know it is relevant but I want to be as efficient as I can in terms of time.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I welcome the officials and I thank Mr. O'Sullivan for his presentation. I am still getting used to the Teams system and I not sure whether we got a copy of the opening statement. Did we get a copy?
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I appreciate the difficulties Deputy Connolly is having with the system.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am sure I will figure it out as we go along. I thank Mr. O'Sullivan for the copy provided.
What role or remit does the social inclusion unit of the Department have other than funding for the provision of Traveller-specific accommodation? Something that used to frustrate me as a member of a local authority, which relates to standard housing projects, was the length of time it took between the local authority developing a concept and when we might see some development under Part 8. What length of time are we speaking about for the Department to process an application from a local authority for Traveller-specific accommodation?
Perhaps my next question relates to the point Deputy Ellis was going to make at the end of his contribution. I have a couple of questions about monitoring. Do we monitor which local authorities draw down funding and which do not? Do we monitor the Traveller accommodation programmes to see which local authorities meet their own objectives? I know there is a role for the members of the local authorities in this also. Is it the social inclusion unit, or does the Department have another unit that monitors whether standards are being maintained in Traveller-specific accommodation, particularly on halting sites? Is there another monitoring body that does this, perhaps an NGO?
I did not get the figure given for current expenditure this year. I heard that there was €23 million for capital funding. Do local authorities have experience of having applications to the social inclusion unit declined or refused? Are there local authorities building, or proposing to build, more than what might be expected of them through their Traveller accommodation programmes? Are we confident the Department has the resources to make sure it meets the demands of the Traveller accommodation programme in each local authority?
I recognise the numbers supplied to us in terms of Traveller households being housed and how that number has increased in recent years. Do we have a census of Traveller accommodation per local authority? Do we know whether the Traveller accommodation programme is designed to meet the needs of the entire Traveller population? This has been mentioned in response to Deputy Ellis with regard to existing need. Some work has been done on the housing needs assessment. Is it relative to the population of the Traveller community? This issue relates to an earlier point. Is the expenditure seen in each local authority relative to the Traveller community population in that local authority area?
On the caravan loan scheme, I have some concerns that some members of the Traveller community find the application process difficult. Will the witnesses outline specifically what the application process is? Do people apply to the local authority? If so, what is the Department's role in it? Should it not simply be that the Department gives an allocation to the local authority, which then assesses the applicants and provides the loan or not?
Is it duplication if there is additional work after that?
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
There were about a dozen questions there, so please bear with me as I try to address them as much as possible. As regards the responsibility of my business unit, I have broad responsibility for housing policy for older people. I also have responsibility for housing policy for disabled people. I also have responsibility for the private housing grants. That is largely together with Traveller accommodation as well. Those are the four broad areas I have responsibility for in the social inclusion unit.
It is important to recognise that, unlike the position with standard social housing, the delivery of Traveller-specific accommodation can be challenging in light of the need to provide halting sites, halting bays and group housing. Therefore, the timing can be extended somewhat more than is the case when it comes to standard housing, depending on the degree of opposition at local level and the complexity of the design involved. In our experience, it takes longer, unfortunately. I do not think there is any way around that.
Importantly, when it comes to the Traveller accommodation programmes, there is a statutory process where a mid-term review has to be undertaken. We undertook that review two years in. We reported to our National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committee, which, as I mentioned, is independently chaired by Mr. Neil Crowley and which was previously chaired by Professor Eoin O'Sullivan of Trinity College Dublin. When we report to that committee, representatives from the Traveller advocacy groups, the County and City Management Association, CCMA, the Association of Irish and Local Government, AILG, and elected members are sitting around the table. There is very active monitoring because we meet regularly with the consultative committee. The heat is put to our feet, shall we say, on a regular basis in that regard. This year, the funding available is €7 million.
On applications refused, I would say that they were not refused but that we may have to go back for clarification or to look for further detail at times. That is without question. I have no experience, in my time, of any application being refused. There is a broader pipeline. Given that Traveller accommodation is a five-year programme, local authorities have a pipeline to manage delivery. We have a lot of projects that are being moved forward at individual local authority level. We have to manage that. It is challenging to manage it from the point of view of an annual budget. Ultimately, the budget is multi-annual. We have been able to meet all the demands over the past number of years. We relied on a Supplementary Estimate of about €4 million a year or two years ago. However, we have been able to meet the demand. We have not been turning local authorities away in the context of paying for the delivery of Traveller accommodation.
In the context of ensuring resourcing for the future, the NDP review is ongoing. We have fed our demand figures into that process, and we await the outcome.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I should have outlined at the start that each member has seven minutes for questions and answers, but there will be a second round if Mr. O'Sullivan wants to reserve some of his responses. I just want to keep a structure on everything.
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Mr. O'Sullivan claimed earlier that there has been a full drawdown of funds for the past five years. However, between 2008 and 2018, local authorities only drew down €110.6 million of the €168.8 million allocated. What has changed since then, and what has been put in place to stop this pattern from returning?
The 1995 task force identified a need for 1,000 transient bays, yet only 54 exist today. After 30 years, how does Mr. O'Sullivan justify this failure to meet basic nomadism accommodation needs? What timelines are there to address the need for 1,000 transient bays to move on from the 54 that exist today?
Representatives from the CCMA will later state that, after 27 years, local authorities need a definition of "culturally appropriate accommodation". Under provisions of the Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act 1998, the Department has failed to provide the basic clarity. Is it hoped to publish clarification on what is meant by Traveller-specific accommodation? What is the timeline for that?
My fourth question is, in 2019, the expert group, working with the previous Traveller committee, made specific recommendations regarding planning delays and Part 8 processes. Six years' later, which of these recommendations have been fully implemented?
Finally, Travellers represent 6% of the homeless population, despite comprising less than 1% of the general population. A total of 549 Travellers were in emergency accommodation in 2024. What is the Department's strategy to address the homeless crisis in the Traveller community? I have some more questions on how the budget for Travellers in the period from 2020 to 2024 was used by the Department for Covid measures. Questions of Traveller accommodation are not around dumping or Covid measures. Maybe I can come back in with these questions.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We will have a second round, Senator.
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Yes, because a lot of that money was not spent on Travellers. It is important that we are very clear on this, because none of us here is living the experiences of the Traveller community.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
You can come back in on the second round.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
I thank the Senator. Going back to 2008, we had to look at the global crisis. Obviously, we had a very specific banking and financial crisis in this country. There was a massive drop off in expenditure, across every voted expenditure. The Senator is absolutely right. Traveller accommodation was not immune to that. It dropped steadily from 2009 to 2011, and then it was flat for about four or five years at about €5 million annually. Since 2016, we have been rebuilding and in the past five years there has been a significant increase. We are trying to get back to those levels of full expenditure. In the most recent five years, €100 million spent on Traveller-specific accommodation is not insignificant. That is outside of the expenditure in accommodation for Travellers more broadly. As I mentioned earlier, 79% of all Travellers identified in the annual estimate are housed in standard social housing. That has to be recognised as a huge success on the part of local authorities. The Department supports that very well.
The Senator is right about transient bays.
I have seen where transient sites have, naturally, over time, become more permanent. Arguably, it is because the Travellers living in the sites have stayed in the site; they did not move. Notwithstanding that, we make it clear in our funding circular letter we issue annually that it is open to local authorities, and local authorities should move forward on delivering transient sites. Some local authorities will say that they feel the demand is not there. They know better at the local level in that regard. What we are doing through the programme board is we are engaging more broadly with the Northern Ireland Housing Executive with regard to looking at the need for that nomadic lifestyle and transient bays on an all-island basis, and then we will get into more detail beyond that. It is important that we look at it on an all-island basis in the first instance.
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Taking it back, Mr. O'Sullivan said that 78%-----
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Some 79% of Travellers are living in social housing.
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is, from the Department's point of view, as Mr. O'Sullivan said, positive. However, is that the accommodation that Travellers want or is that the accommodation that communities force them into? If we do not have the definition of "culturally appropriate" and what that means for many of the Traveller community, I find it a wee bit difficult to grasp. I am currently dealing with a single parent in County Donegal who cannot get into a home. She has four boys. She is living in a one-bedroom apartment in Ardara, County Donegal, that is cold, full of mildew, and is no place to rear four children. This woman cannot get a house from the Traveller accommodation sector. She cannot get a house from, if you want, the general way they do housing in Donegal. Being a member of the Traveller community and not a member of the community is an obstacle. It is interesting for members of the community to know that it is not Traveller-appropriate accommodation.
Just one moment, Chair. It is important that I say this.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Yes, but to be fair, there will be a second round.
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
For many years, Travellers have spoken about how society wants to make us fake settled people. When we go into the fact that 79% of Travellers are housed in local authority housing but without their needs being met or being culturally appropriate-----
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I ask Mr. O'Sullivan to hold that answer for the next round so we can keep a structure on the timing to give everyone a chance to get in. Those questions will be answered.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Mr. O'Sullivan for his presentation. He can correct me if I am wrong but he said there are roughly 1,000 Travellers on the housing waiting list. Is that correct?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When you put in your housing application form, you can self-identify as Traveller or not-----
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
-----and people are doing that. Is Mr. O'Sullivan concerned that many are not identifying as Traveller?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Did Mr. O'Sullivan say that 1% of those on that application who identified as Travellers were looking for a halting site, and roughly more than 1% were looking for a group setting within a Traveller-----
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
So 97% or 98% of Travellers who have identified as such are looking for a regular-type house.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
As mentioned by other Deputies and Senators here, in his opening statement, Mr. O'Sullivan referenced how the Department changed from allocating a specific budget to local authorities in funding from 2020. Could he briefly explain the process? Let us say I am from Limerick council and am applying. How does that work? Can Mr. O'Sullivan briefly explain to me how that goes? Do I come to the Department and say we need €5 million for X, Y and Z, or for specific projects? What way is it done? How long does the process take?
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
It is primarily group housing schemes and halting sites. A local authority decides it wants to deliver a new group housing scheme. It will come to us with a proposal and submit it as a preliminary proposal or it will engage bilaterally and flag with us when we are talking to it that it is planning something and ask whether it is the right away to go about it. We will then get the written documentation followed up. Then it is in the conveyor belt for processing.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Has the money that has been drawn down been spent?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does it have to be spent within the year or is there leeway on that?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
My colleagues raised the point that some local authorities would be better and more proactive than others. Some of the figures that jump out at us are that Leitrim and Monaghan drew down nothing in 2024. There could be reasons for that. Cork council only drew €26,000, which seems impossible for Cork council, given the number of Travellers. It would be bizarre to think that but there might be factors as to why that happened. Mr. O'Sullivan might explain what those are.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In fairness to Cork County Council, it is down 90% from the two previous years, so how did that work?
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
It has projects in planning but it has not brought them to fruition where it is starting to draw down expenditure. As I mentioned earlier to the member asking the question on timelines, there can be very extended timelines. A local authority could go a whole year or a couple years where it would not have any expenditure, even though it is planning projects in the background for delivery. Community engagement is key for all delivery but particularly for the Traveller community. That adds to the timeframe as well.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Would Mr. O'Sullivan suggest that councils should be proactively going ahead with that stuff before they apply for the funding?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They could have some of that ground work done where they know something would work in an area, or which area to go to, for example, for various reasons.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
Absolutely, and they are doing it according to their Traveller accommodation programme. That is the blueprint for a local authority in strategically planning - their Traveller accommodation programme under the 1998 Act. The local authorities are more expert at this but younger Traveller households seem to have a preference for standard accommodation over Traveller-specific accommodation. It seems to be that they look at their peers in the community and say they want to be part of that community.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That would be very welcome.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
From my personal view, it would be welcome but there are other issues we need to deal with around education and stuff like that.
Does Mr. O'Sullivan have a list or number of Travellers who are currently in emergency accommodation?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It states in Mr. O'Sullivan's statement that there are significant challenges-----
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
So the regular homeless figures that are published monthly will have Traveller numbers in them.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I could be wrong, but that cannot be right.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There were 48 presentations across the State of Travellers looking for homeless emergency accommodation.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I would have thought there were 48 in Limerick alone, never mind across the whole State.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Say there are only 48 Travellers looking for emergency accommodation in-----
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I totally understand that. I still find the figure very low. I hope that is the case, but it sounds bizarre.
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Travellers make up more than 9% of the homeless.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Then why are only 48 people applying for it?
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Sorry, but this is not a back and forth. Through the Chair.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am definitely running out of time. I will go back to the change in the allocation of moneys. How many councils have been refused? How many applications came in last year, for instance, from local authorities?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It was suggested that the Department would give €23 million for capital expenditure in 2025.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is that down by €6 million on 2023, for example?
Pádraig Rice (Cork South-Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is my firm assessment that this State is in violation of the human rights of Travellers. That is not just my assessment. The European Roma Rights Centre published an article, entitled "Council of Europe raps Ireland for continued violations of Travellers' rights". A headline in The Irish Times stated "Travellers' right to accommodation not in line with European Social Charter". An Irish Examiner headline stated "Ireland failing to provide appropriate accommodation for Travellers". We have consistent reports from domestic and international human rights bodies that we are in violation of Travellers' rights. What is happening in respect of Travellers in this country, their human rights and their right to accommodation and good living standards is quite serious.
On budgets, it was said there was €23 million in capital expenditure. Is that enough?
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
I have no reason to believe it is not enough. We are spending approximately to profile at the moment. The profile is that we will meet expenditure. We will have a better picture in quarter 3 as to whether we will need any additional funding. That is the same as any other expenditure line.
Pádraig Rice (Cork South-Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Domestic and international human rights bodies are saying we are in violation of the rights of Travellers as regards accommodation commitments, but we think we are spending enough money. That does not add up.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
I would have to understand what is meant by that more specifically. It comes back to Travellers being housed in both standard housing and Traveller-specific accommodation, which does not necessarily need a definition. It is very clear. Traveller-specific accommodation is a halting site, a halting site bay or a group housing scheme. We have a caravan loan scheme that provides for the caravan. That is Traveller-specific accommodation in the broadest sense.
Pádraig Rice (Cork South-Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Mr. O'Sullivan stated there was a low preference for halting sites. Does he think this could be to do with the conditions on those sites?
Pádraig Rice (Cork South-Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On spending, it was said that local authorities stated they did not need to spend the full allocation. Is that the attitude in local authorities regarding budgets and their allocations? Do they come back to the Department saying they do not need to spend that full allocation or the money?
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
No, I do not get that sense at all. The evidence over the past five years has demonstrated that local authorities are much more proactive in spending and delivering. We now have the evidence base through the summary of social housing assessments. The increased preference is for standard housing. We are preparing, in line with the Traveller accommodation programmes, to have the funding in place, particularly through the NDP review, for Traveller-specific accommodation. We provide the funding for that very narrow cohort.
Pádraig Rice (Cork South-Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I suggest that the preference for standard housing might be because of the living conditions in some of the local authority-run halting sites. For example, a report by the Ombudsman for Children published in 2021 identified a range of issues, including extreme overcrowding, inadequate sanitation and a range of other issues. I will quote some of the people who lived on such sites, especially some of the young people. A girl aged 12 said, "walking up to school you see all the rats ... they [come] running up and down the walls of the trailer”. Another girl said, “people ask [me] why I’m dirty, but I’d be ashamed to say. I don’t want to say it was from walking out of the site”. A third girl said, “it [can take] two or three hours to heat up a bath and we’re all using the one water". A boy aged seven said, “we only play in puddles”. A 16-year-old girl said, “when you put your hands out of the bed in the mornings, the blankets are all wet”. A girl aged 12 said, “it’s like an abandoned place that people forgot about, it’s like we’re forgotten, we feel like garbage”. These are testimonies from people living on halting sites in this country in the not too distant past. This is how people feel. These are the real words of Travellers living in conditions on local authority-run halting sites in this State. This is my concern about the rights of the child, in particular, and the rights of Travellers more generally.
That ombudsman report is damning. It identified a range of failures, namely, the failure to consider the best interests of children, including those with additional needs; failure to clear passageways for children to go to school; lack of transparency and accountability in local authority processing; and failure to comply with and implement the minimum requirements of the Traveller accommodation programme, which places a statutory duty on local authorities to meet the accommodation needs of Travellers. It goes on to call for intervention at CEO level, and for the CEO of the relevant local authority, in this case, Cork City Council, to take responsibility. Does Mr. O'Sullivan think things changed in that local authority as regards its attitude and approach to Traveller housing and accommodation?
Pádraig Rice (Cork South-Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
My point was not on the halting site. I know there have been improvements to that halting site. My point was about the management of Cork City Council, the responsibility at CEO level and the ring-fenced budget within the council. Has there been that culture change at leadership level within the city council on this issue?
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
I agree with the Deputy's broad position. I have to be totally upfront with him. We are not denying there are continuing challenges for the Traveller community in accommodation throughout the country. I have never said we have resolved all the Traveller accommodation problems. The Deputy is right and I fully support what he said. We work on a daily , weekly and annual basis in engaging directly with local authorities to drive that delivery. I welcome the engagement at political and local level in driving the delivery. The Deputy is right that the challenges are there. We must meet those challenges head-on. We are doing our best at a national level to ensure the funding and frameworks are in place and to engage with local authorities at local level.
Pádraig Rice (Cork South-Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
With respect, Mr. O'Sullivan said there was adequate funding. Does the Department have adequate funding to meet all of the challenges faced by Travellers in terms of accommodation?
Pádraig Rice (Cork South-Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
My understanding is that eight local authorities set targets below the needs identified in their own TAPs. What sanctions does the Department impose on those councils that deliberately underplan for accommodation needs? Are there sanctions for those local authorities that are underplanning?
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
Local authorities are independent under the Constitution. They have their elected members. The executive is answerable to the elected members at local level. It is not me sitting in the Department trying to activate a sanction. They have the authority at local level and are held to account at local level by the elected members there. We work with them to deliver. We ensure the funding and framework are in place but we cannot interfere with the delivery of housing at local level. That is entirely the responsibility of the local authority.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We are tight on time for our second set of witnesses. I ask Deputy Ellis to be as brief as possible.
Dessie Ellis (Dublin North-West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On the number of homeless people in the Traveller community, I could rattle off seven, eight or nine names in my area alone. The figures do not seem to add up. I query how they came about.
The capital funding is €23 million for this year. If we want to add to that, what is the process for looking for extra funding?
Mr. O’Sullivan mentioned a figure of €7 million. Is that correct?
Dessie Ellis (Dublin North-West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is current funding. Can the local authorities seek more or are they limited to that figure? That is one thing on which I am not sure. We have a number of capital projects in my area of Dublin North-West. I have been waiting on them for the past six or seven years. I have seen plan after plan, which is quite frustrating. I wonder whether Dublin City Council has been following through with a lot of these projects. The Avila projects have been going on for the past five or six years. There is another plan to do works at St. Margaret's Park.
A lot of the sites are overcrowded. Mr. O’Sullivan said that members of the Traveller community are looking for ordinary accommodation. This is out of frustration because there is an overflow of people in the sites. In some cases, councils will say they do not have land or whatever. That is adding to the number of Travellers looking for ordinary accommodation, be that through RAS, HAP or otherwise. Things like that are a big factor.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
It is important to understand. I fully recognise that we have more than 15,500 individuals who are homeless. That is an enormous challenge and a priority for the Government. We do not have a figure within that for how many of those are Travellers. The figure I gave Deputy Ellis was for presentations in just one quarter of one year. It is not a percentage of the overall 15,500. We do not have that data.
Dessie Ellis (Dublin North-West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Dublin City Council has clearly identified which people are Travellers. The council puts Travellers in band 1. Those figures are available in that local authority, although I do not know what way other counties work. Certainly, Travellers go on a Traveller priority list, as it is called. I do not know about the other councils.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
To be fair, homeless figures are reported on a national basis. Perhaps the homeless team does not want to report for one specific local authority until the figures for all local authorities can be reported together. We will certainly engage with our homeless team in this regard. We have active engagement. We do not work in silos in the Department. We engage and have regular meetings. We will engage with the homeless team and discuss this issue. We have been doing that because we are trying to get to the bottom of this to understand it. Ultimately, in the context of homelessness and Housing for All, it is about delivering for all people, whether they are a Traveller or from the general population. The priority is housing.
Traveller-specific accommodation, as I mentioned, is multi-annual. If the projects that are in the pipeline all moved at a pace and delivery started in one year, it would present us with a challenge. We would have to manage that challenge. If all those projects came to fruition at the same time, €23 million would not be enough for the relevant year. We have to manage that. We are engaging with the local authority to understand who is likely to come forward first. We then ensure the funding is there and ready. We are always prepared, as we have been in the past, to seek a Supplementary Estimate and ask the Oireachtas for more money if we need it. The Department will certainly not be shy in doing that.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I welcome that clarity on the 48 families because my interpretation and experience are similar. This is a small number. It only represents presentations in one quarter. Cumulatively, up to that point, there could be thousands of presentations.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
With regard to the €7 million in current expenditure, €4 million of that is for the caravan scheme. The other €3 million-----
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will Mr. O’Sullivan give us some idea of the types of expenditure that €7 million is used for? Where does it go?
My local authority has started to develop group schemes for members of the Traveller community within a broader housing scheme. When it comes to the timeframe, Mr. O'Sullivan said that given the nature of the projects, some of them take longer. I would have thought that the delay in the Department’s work would be pertinent only to the planning process, such as objections under Part 8. In the context of the Department’s work in the design and furnishing the funding, is it Mr. O’Sullivan’s experience that those wider schemes are delayed because they include a particular group scheme for members of the Traveller community?
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
As I mentioned, engagement is so important when it comes to the Traveller community. Local authorities have tried to get that engagement right, even before Part 8, for all sides, be that the executive, the elected members, the communities and the wider community. That brings its own challenges.
In respect of the current funding, we pay a percentage of the costs of having caretakers on site, management and maintenance and the social workers employed by the local authorities. In 2024, we spent more than €3 million of the €7 million on management and maintenance and approximately €3.5 million was spent on social workers. It is the people behind who deliver and support.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
To come back to Deputy Rice's point on the monitoring of the standards, we could increase current expenditure on that role. While we do not have any monitoring role per se, we are extending money to manage the facilities with the local authorities. Perhaps there is a greater role for the Department in making sure facilities are maintained to a better standard.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
Ultimately, the local authority on the ground has the expertise. We are there to pay for the demands of the local authority and the work it does in estate management at the local level. The Deputy is absolutely right that estate management is key. It costs money and we are prepared to fund that to a percentage.
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
For the record, does Mr. O'Sullivan know who the Minister with responsibility for Traveller accommodation is because we are not-----
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is not the Minister of State, Deputy Cummins.
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Mr. O'Sullivan. When it comes to the money being spent on waste management, social workers, maintenance and caretakers on these sites, as Mr. O’Sullivan outlined, I am a little concerned that these workers are not members of the Traveller community. These are workers from the general population. I do not know how this fits with the Traveller accommodation budget. Mr. O'Sullivan said earlier, although I beg to differ, that the Department understands what Traveller-appropriate accommodation is. Yet, we do not have that definition for local authorities. When the Deputies asked questions, I heard Mr. O'Sullivan say that this is a problem for the local authorities rather than for the Department and that it is up to the local authority to deliver on the ground. He did not say it is up to the local authority to deliver. For example, Traveller accommodation is meant to be delivered in Ballyfermot. This is only an example. If it is not delivered, it is nothing to do with the Department.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
That is not what I said at all. I said that while the local responsibility lies at a local level, the Department is responsible for the broader funding and legislative framework. We engage through the National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committee in bringing it together at a national level.
With regard to staff employed by the local authority, staff are employed by the local authority. That is a matter for local authorities. People can apply for jobs through the local authority.
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That money is coming out of the Traveller accommodation budget that is meant to home Travellers. It is not meant to go to waste management. There are great social workers in all of the local authorities.
This is an issue that has been going on for years. That is meant to be done via social workers through Tusla, the Department of Social Protection or whatever other Department deals with that. It should not be the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government. Does Mr. O'Sullivan know what I am saying?
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This money gets drawn down and it is known to be for Traveller accommodation, but in reality, a lot of it is not. Thousands of euro are spent not on Traveller accommodation, but on waste management. We would not see this in another community. It would not be allowed.
Before the meeting comes to an end, will the Department give the local authorities that definition of "Traveller accommodation"? We know the local authorities do not have that definition and do not work off it.
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Are there any recommendations from the Department on how we can invest in true Traveller accommodation? Does Mr. O'Sullivan have any suggestions for the committee? Is it okay with the Department that we fund social workers, waste management, the Covid-19 chalk on sites and separating families? The money spent on that should not have come out of the Traveller accommodation budget. As somebody who was born and reared on a halting sites and sees the issues on sites, I was once that young Traveller who went to school with infections from falling on the site. That is still the reality today for children on many halting sites. It is something that came up in the last committee as well. Today, it is worth getting clarity and it is important to have the opportunity for me to speak. How do we stop the Department of housing having to fund social workers? I am not saying it is a waste of money. It is very valuable money, of course, and many people need social work, but why is it coming from the housing budget? I can never make head nor tail of that.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
I should clarify. There is a lot of current funding towards Traveller liaison officers in the local authorities as well. They do an extremely important role because they are the bridge between the local authority and the Traveller groups locally. That is directly. When it comes to estate management, though, it needs funding whether someone is in standard housing or Traveller-specific accommodation. There is estate management, be it cutting the grass or whatever.
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Of course, that is to maintain the sites, but I am going on about specific money for housing. Can Mr. O'Sullivan justify the Department of housing paying for social workers?
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
Separately, as the Senator knows, there was a report done. That report was being examined by the County and City Management Association, which I understand is bringing it to fruition now. We have engaged in the group the association established, chaired by a chief executive, with a view to changing the approach there, particularly because the report identified - the Senator is 100% right - that social workers are for all people, not just for Travellers. Everybody needs access to them.
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
May I a make a wee suggestion for the committee, please? Would it be possible for the Department to give us a briefing on or breakdown of what it spends Traveller accommodation money on? It would be an eye-opener for members of this committee to see, for example, that some of the Covid-19 "keep 2 m away" signs and so on cost local authorities such as Dublin City Council a lot of money.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We can certainly request that.
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
If it is okay, I have about seven other questions. If I emailed them to the witnesses and they came back, I would be very grateful.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does the Senator wish to cc those questions to the entire committee? It would be a valuable exercise.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Going back to the homeless figures, Mr. O'Sullivan may have misinterpreted my question. He referred to 48 presentations in a quarter. I was actually asking how many people in emergency accommodation were Travellers.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
As Senator Flynn said, probably 6% or 7% of those are Travellers, so that would be 900 to 1,000.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In fairness, Mr. O'Sullivan has come to this committee today and we are discussing, in his own words, the delivery of accommodation for Travellers, but he cannot tell us how many are in emergency accommodation.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
How many? I am sorry----
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It would be useful for us on the committee to know how many people in emergency accommodation identify as Travellers, yet Mr. O'Sullivan does not have that figure.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is not what I am looking for. There are four quarters in every year and the homelessness crisis has been going on for a number of years. In my own constituency, there are Travellers who have been in emergency accommodation for well over a year. How do we count them?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
For instance, of the 1,000 people who have self-identified on the list, how many of those are in emergency accommodation?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Mr. O'Sullivan said there were 1,000 people on the list who identified as Travellers. How many of those are in emergency accommodation?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will skip that question. In fairness, though, Mr. O'Sullivan has come to the committee where we are talking about delivery of Traveller accommodation. We were obviously going to be asking questions. The biggest issue in the whole country is housing and homelessness and Mr. O'Sullivan does not have the figures for Travellers. I will leave it at that, unfortunately.
My second question is on the 2022 application process. Mr. O'Sullivan said that nobody who applied for it was being refused. How many projects are delayed through clarifications or other reasons? How many are in the pipeline waiting to come?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When I asked the question initially in my first round, Mr. O'Sullivan said that some had been delayed because of clarification. He is now saying they are not significant numbers.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
All the money has been drawn down. Regarding the two counties that did not draw down anything, that had nothing to do with clarifications.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The budget, according to the opening statement or the figures we received, was €130 million. Will Mr. O'Sullivan give us a breakdown of that? I do not expect him to do so now. I would like to have a breakdown of what was spent on capital expenditure, waste services as Senator Flynn was talking about, and so on.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Mr. O'Sullivan.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That concludes the question and answer session. I thank our witnesses for their presence and co-operation. We will suspend briefly to allow our second group of witnesses from the County and City Management Association to take their seats.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Our second engagement today is with the County and City Management Association, CCMA, to further discuss the matter of funding for Traveller-specific accommodation. I invite Ms Sinéad Carr of the CCMA to make her opening statement after which we will proceed to a question-and-answer session.
Ms Sinéad Carr:
I thank the committee for the opportunity to come before it. I am a member of the County and City Management Association housing committee, chief executive of Tipperary County Council and a member of the National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committee. I am accompanied here today by my colleagues, Mr. Frank D'Arcy, executive manager housing services in Dublin County Council and Mr. Brian Kennedy and Ms Patricia Phillips, director of services and senior executive officer in Limerick City and County Council.
On behalf of the CCMA, we welcome the opportunity to appear before the Joint Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community. Local authorities remain committed to delivering good quality, sustainable, and culturally appropriate accommodation to Traveller families. This includes the provision of halting sites, group housing, standard social housing, rural housing and mobile homes, depending on local needs. The programme also prioritises the ongoing maintenance, upgrading and retrofitting of existing accommodation to ensure safe, secure and dignified living environments.
Local authorities also work in close partnership with approved housing bodies, the HSE, Tusla, local development companies and NGOs, including Traveller representative organisations, the Department of education and other key stakeholders to support Traveller families not just with housing but with broader social, health and educational needs. Dedicated staff, including social workers and Traveller liaison officers, also play a vital role in this effort.
In the context of the Traveller accommodation programme, TAP, the CCMA has encouraged strong community engagement, particularly through local Traveller accommodation consultative committees, to ensure local plans are aligned with Traveller preferences. In conjunction with the National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committee, it is hoped that we can continue to pursue greater improvements in the consultation space with members of the Traveller community in designing and delivering accommodation appropriate to families’ needs. The estimated accommodation delivery programme for 2025 to 2029 is 3,424 units and of these, 718 will traveller appropriate accommodation.
Under the previous Traveller accommodation plan running from 2020 to 2024, local authorities provided accommodation for 3,358 members of the Traveller community. Of the total number of units provided, 773 units constituted what is termed “Traveller appropriate accommodation”. The remainder of accommodation provided to members of the Traveller community were standard housing as per their preference and it is important that this is recognised as one of the preferred forms of housing for members of this community.
While progress has been made, the CCMA accepts that much more needs to be done and the local authority sector will continue to focus on building on the positive work undertaken to date with all of the key stakeholders.
In the context of budgets, local authorities remain committed to the delivery of culturally appropriate Traveller accommodation, in line with the needs outlined in the plans. Capital spend from 2020 to 2024 amounted to just over €101 million nationally. This indicates strong engagement overall. In 2025, a further €23 million has been allocated to date and it is anticipated that local authorities will continue to draw down capital funds in line with their capital plans for culturally appropriate Traveller accommodation.
Maintenance spend on Traveller-specific accommodation is a significant cost and varies from local authority to local authority. Fire safety remains a priority. Local authorities continue annual site inspections and progress the necessary upgrades. In total, €13 million was recouped by local authorities from the Department for Traveller-specific accommodation maintenance between 2020 and 2024. Specific maintenance costs are recouped by local authorities, covering partial caretaker salaries, capped contributions to halting site repairs, and skip hire. Local authorities also fund management and maintenance costs from their own budgets. The CCMA recommends sustained departmental support for these measures.
Local authorities continue to face significant delivery challenges in relation to the delivery and the maintenance of Traveller accommodation on a number of fronts including land availability, site constraints, planning challenges, public opposition, the changing requests of families to be accommodated, managing expectations due to a lack of clarity around what is understood as Traveller-appropriate accommodation and difficulties progressing Traveller-preferred projects within timelines.
Notwithstanding this, there are positive examples around the country where local authorities have advanced projects in collaboration with Traveller communities, placing a strong emphasis on co-design and community engagement. For example, Limerick City and County Council has worked with Rathkeale Together, a community-based organisation, funded by West Limerick Resources, and residents from Hillview halting site to agree on the works for the redevelopment of the site. Works are expected to be completed in July 2025. This work is to include solar panels to help with fuel poverty. Residents took ownership at the start of the project and continue to engage throughout the process.
On homelessness, as is the trend with the general population, homelessness amongst the Traveller community is rising. It is difficult to obtain an accurate robust figure on this area, however, as not every Traveller wishes to identify as such. Anecdotally, there does appear to be a growing trend of homelessness among newly-formed young Traveller families entering emergency accommodation and this is an area that will be reviewed by the homeless subcommittee of the CCMA housing committee. As with the general population, there appears to be a variety of reasons for homeless presentations including issues around addiction, mental health, family breakdown, feuding, domestic violence and overcrowding. An indicative number of Travellers who were in homeless emergency accommodation in 2024 is 549. To date in 2025, that number is approximately 432 but again these figures need to be interpreted with caution.
Local authorities continue to develop community-focused initiatives that support Traveller inclusion and engagement, particularly in Traveller-specific accommodation. A growing number of councils are working with Traveller groups to establish local residents' forums. For example, Limerick City and County Council supported the formation of a residents’ group earlier this year by delivering tailored training on how resident forums operate. This group later participated in a community-wide clean-up initiative demonstrating positive outcomes for both residents and the wider community.
Experience over the years has demonstrated that delivery of homes alone to some members of the Traveller community is not sufficient in the context of sustaining their tenancy, improving their quality of life or empowering them to access the same opportunities as others within the general population. In addition to accommodation provision, local authorities have continued to provide specific supports to the more marginalised families within the Traveller community in the context of tenancy sustainment support, Housing First supports and social care support.
Most local authorities also make particular provision for targeted project-based supports and engagement to members of the Traveller community in the form of sporting activity, library supports, heritage supports and supports in the engagement in the arts, among others. Local authorities have also taken a lead role in a number of interagency initiatives that support the enablement and empowerment of Travellers in the educational and job readiness areas.
The caravan loan scheme, revised and promoted under Circular 08/2025, is intended to support Travellers in purchasing mobile accommodation.
The Department of housing has reported that all local authorities received a caravan loan scheme allocation for 2025, with some receiving additional funding following direct engagement. The Department has indicated it expects a full spend of the total amount allocated under the scheme. In conclusion, the CCMA is committed to delivering an appropriate range of housing and related support services in an integrated and sustainable manner. The CCMA continues to work with the necessary stakeholders in that regard. While it is acknowledged there are notable challenges in the delivery of accommodation, local authorities will continue to work in partnership with stakeholders to assist Traveller families to ensure their accommodation needs are met. The CCMA also supports a definition of culturally appropriate accommodation to provide clarity for all stakeholders involved. We welcome the opportunity to engage in dialogue and are happy to answer any questions the committee has.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We will move on to the members who have indicated their wish to speak. I call Deputy Connolly.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will not take long. The questions arise out of some of the answers we received from the Department officials who were here previously. One of those is the current expenditure of the Department for the maintenance and upkeep of halting sites and the sufficiency around that. There was much commentary beforehand about how some halting sites are in poor condition and could do with more intense management and a greater level of maintenance. I recognise fully, as set out in Ms Carr's presentation, the importance of maintaining and ensuring the highest standards with regard to fire safety. Does Ms Carr think the current level of resourcing of local authorities is sufficient for that work?
Another question I have is about when a local authority develops a concept for either Traveller-specific accommodation or a group scheme or, as is happening in my own local authority in Galway city, when a local authority plans to develop a housing scheme with a group scheme for members of the Travelling community as part of it. Does Ms Carr think the process to get approval from the Department for those schemes is lengthier because they include for Traveller-specific accommodation?
To revert to the issue of the funding for the current expenditure, there were some queries as to whether it is appropriate that funding for social workers within local authorities comes from that source, and whether - and Ms Carr might clarify if that is the case - they should be funded from an alternative source? I am not sure how much of the funding for social workers comes from the income generated by local authorities themselves.
My final query is in respect of the loan scheme. From Ms Carr's experience of the applications local authorities are getting for the loan scheme from members of the Travelling community, what is the success rate? Have many applications been declined? Does Ms see an increased demand for that loan scheme or have we sufficient resources there?
Ms Sinéad Carr:
I will reply and anybody that wants to come in thereafter can do. Regarding the expenditure maintenance, as anybody who deals with halting site group scheme maintenance knows, it is the most resource-intensive element of overall Travel accommodation. It certainly needs a significant amount of supports. My understanding is that with the caretakers - and we certainly will need caretakers with respect to those facilities - 75% of that is covered by the Department and the remainder is covered by councils. On the maintenance side, it is 50%. Is it sufficient? I will be honest, we could certainly do with further funding in that area. It is particularly resource intensive.
In my own county, and I can only speak on my own county, I would say the most marginalised of our Traveller community are in either the group housing or the halting sites. We have 478 families in total in County Tipperary, and the vast majority of those we do not have any significant issues with, they get on with their lives and do what they have to do but those on the halting sites or in the group housing are the ones that need the most resources. In terms of the concept for the group housing scheme and whether that is lengthier if it is part of an overall housing process, to my own mind, it should not be any lengthier to be honest; it is still bricks and mortar. However, I would say, with either halting sites or in group housing, there is a huge lead-up when engaging on a one-on-one basis with Traveller families as to what their needs are. For instance, to give an example, if I had a settlement and I was organising a standard social housing scheme that involved one, two, three and four-bedroom homes for that particular area, I would know who is on my housing waiting list, meaning I could design my social housing, put it up, and then allocate it. It is very different when one is dealing with Traveller-appropriate accommodation, engaging one on one with the families and trying to get agreement with them about what their needs are and how housing will work. That can take a particularly lengthy period of time and by the time one gets that agreement done, they have to go into the planning process, the procurement and tendering processes, and then they have to go through the funding agreement. That could take all of a year and a half, and by the time they come out the other end, the family may feel their needs have changed. One may then have to go back through the process again. That element is particularly difficult, and is something that could be looked at.
On the funding for the current expenditure, social workers are absolutely critical in dealing with some members. While not all members of the Traveller community members require social work support, those who do require significant support. At the moment, that funding stream is 90% from the Department, and 10% from the local authority. Social workers who engage with members of the Traveller community where needed are critical.
Finally, as to the loan scheme for caravans, there are pluses and minuses there. I will hand over either to my colleagues from Limerick or Dublin who might wish to comment.
Mr. Frank D'Arcy:
In respect of the loan and emergency schemes, they have been extraordinarily successful. In Dublin city this year to date, we have nine successful applications on the caravan loan scheme, funded by the Department to a total of €480,000, and nine on the emergency scheme as well. As to the figures going back to 2022, there were 37 on the loan scheme and 53 on the emergency scheme for flood, fire and storm damage. That is 90 units. It has been very successful, we have spent in the region of €4.8 million on it. The loan scheme is 50% funded by the Department on the emergency side. As Ms Carr said, we could always do with additional resources, but it has been a good success to date.
Mr. Brian Kennedy:
I wish to outline some of the issues from the Limerick City and County Council perspective. From a maintenance point of view, we have a revenue budget of €1.4 million per annum. We have a contractor available 24 hours a day, seven days a week. He provides a very good service. We have a large number of sites around the city and county. There is always capacity for additionality with regard to funding, but we have a certain resource we can use. In relation to the caravan loan scheme, we were one of the counties chosen as a pilot in 2023. It has been very successful for us. Initially, through the pilot we processed 11 loans; the highest number in the country. It was very successful. The pilot is complete and has been rolled out nationally. We have been awarded another €400,000 for this year, and we will have seven families benefit from that. In addition, we also provided 11 emergency mobile homes during the Traveller accommodation plan for 2019 to 2024.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Regarding the emergency scheme, that was not touched on by officials previously. Is there a particular budget allocated to the emergency scheme on an annual basis or do the local authorities have to go and look for additional moneys for that? I have a personal story. During Storm Éowyn, I tried to help a Traveller family with the humanitarian assistance scheme and it was quite difficult for the Department of social welfare.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will raise two more things. On the monitoring of the organisation's own Traveller accommodation programmes—--
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is a different question and the Deputy’s time is well up. Deputy Ellis has seven minutes.
Dessie Ellis (Dublin North-West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I have dealt with Mr. D'Arcy for many years over these issues. The big issue I see is resources.
We are always working in arrears. For example, Dublin City Council, DCC, has so many schemes on hand. St. Margaret's, Avila Park and many other schemes were identified many years ago but have still not been advanced. It is quite frustrating. I assume there is a similar problem in other areas. There is an issue around planning. The process seems to be dragged out for so long. It looks as though there are not enough resources within the Department or DCC. The situation with other councils may be similar in terms of people, be it architects, planners or whomever, looking at what is required. Obviously, maintenance is a big issue that I have dealt with many times.
On the caravan loan scheme, people who got loans previously are now coming back again because those loans only last ten years. Then there is the situation with second-hand caravans. I am curious as to how the council operates that scheme. Over the years, many families have come to me. It was a battle to get them onto the list again as the caravan got older. There are also people with disabilities who have to be taken into account.
There do not seem to be enough social workers. Some families are in need of extra things, such as more suitable caravans for people with disabilities. In the past, there were problems regarding people with mental health issues. This is where social workers can help to liaise with schools or whatever. Are we struggling, in the context of resources, to deliver that? Many families have said to me that their children go to school without having had a meal. We now have a situation where breakfast clubs are being pulled. Families in the Traveller community in certain areas often rely on that; it is not everywhere. It is a big problem in the context of social work. Do we make any representations on this?
Mr. Frank D'Arcy:
I refer back to something Deputy Connolly said regarding oversight. One of the strengths of the local Traveller accommodation consultative committee, LTACC, is that it is dynamic. There are six representatives from the Traveller community and six councillors. They have great oversight in relation to maintenance issues, financial expenditure and capital projects, which I will come to in a moment. I understand Deputy Ellis's frustration about where DCC is in that regard with the new focus we have. The Deputy referred to welfare matters and social workers. Our chief social worker sits on the LTACC, which has very good oversight regarding issues relating to estate management and the Traveller council.
On maintenance, the Deputy will know the structure within DCC. I have other responsibilities in respect of maintenance and so forth. How the maintenance works in DCC is that there are eight area maintenance officers for the different areas and for the 26,500 units for which we have rent accounts. We recently appointed an area maintenance officer specifically to the Traveller accommodation unit. That will be a good step forward when it comes to engagement with tenants at the various sites the Deputy mentioned. Furthermore, it is our intention to do surveys of the various sites that we have regarding footpaths, lighting and bay,s and what needs to be done with those. Deputy Ellis mentioned the loan schemes and the emergency scheme. It has been a great success, delivering 90 units in five years.
In respect of the delivery of new builds in Dublin city, the Deputy will be pleased to know that Cara Park got nine new units. Part 8 planning was approved by the council in June. We are putting together our stage 3 funding application to submit to the Department. We hope to have that done by the end of July. I will be able to sit before this committee and say that we have new builds.
In relation to Avila Park, we are making good progress in the context of building there. In terms of the Labre Park regeneration, which is close to the heart of Senator Flynn, she will know that we have built a new playground. That has been a great success.
We now monitor waste collection and maintenance. We received 221 maintenance requests through the Traveller accommodation unit for the first five months of 2025. Of those, 157 have been completed successfully and 64 are in hand. My colleague mentioned earlier on that we have a framework in place. There are three substantial subcontractors on that, and they are also doing void units. We are starting to see the benefits of that.
Ms Sinéad Carr:
On resources, sometimes there is a tendency to treat Travellers as a homogenous group, and they are not. There is a variety of different needs. We need to be a good deal more adaptive and flexible in terms of meeting those needs. I mentioned before that there are 430-odd families in County Tipperary, of whom 30 are maybe more marginalised and need significant support. The accommodation unit on its own will never solve that issue. Those families need significant wraparound supports. Those supports include addiction services, mental health services and family support services. That is absolutely critical if we are to address this in the long term. Otherwise, we are only throwing good money after bad.
Pádraig Rice (Cork South-Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I reiterate what I said earlier, namely that I have serious concerns around the violation of the human rights of Travellers. That is not just my opinion; it is the opinion of many monitoring bodies. The European Commission on Social Rights found that Traveller rights on accommodation are not in line with the European Social Charter. The Council of Europe Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities found that the provision of culturally appropriate accommodation for Travellers remains a major issue. National and international human rights bodies have serious concerns around Travellers' rights to accommodation. The failings on the part of the State in this regard are very serious and need to be addressed. From what I have heard so far tody, I do not get a sense of the urgency required to address some of these serious human rights violations relating to Travellers.
On budgets, when the witnesses go back to the Department and say that budgets are inadequate, what is the response?
Ms Sinéad Carr:
I hear the concerns of the Deputy in relation to human rights. All of us have a duty around addressing those. Can I give an example? Sometimes, evidence is important on a more local level. The Traveller population represents about 1.4% of our waiting list. In 2024, 4.5% of those people were allocated accommodation in accordance with their needs. That is a reasonable approach in terms of making sure we address the matter. It is extraordinarily complicated at times with some of the more marginalised families. That is not just for the Traveller population; that includes homeless people who may not be Travellers. They need a significant level of intervention, and that cannot just be on the housing side. That is why I stress that there should be a more holistic approach in terms of addressing the needs of those particularly vulnerable individuals.
In terms of the accommodation issue and funding from the Department, the first thing I would say is that everybody has to live within a budget.
In all fairness, where I have exceptional issues raised in relation to accommodation - when I need additional funding to deal with a particular issue with a particular family - I have never found the Department wanting. This is being genuine about it.
On the question of whether I would like more flexibility in relation to how the funding is spent, yes I would. It will not be a surprise to hear this, but many of the families we are dealing with now would nearly prefer a modular unit rather than a mobile home. These units have a longer lifespan. In my view, we need to move into that space because it offers better value for money and meets the need. Having said that, to be fair to the Department, any time we have had a particularly difficult issue concerning a very vulnerable family, it has never been found wanting.
Pádraig Rice (Cork South-Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On budgets, it is always about choice. The State has choices it can make in terms of how it allocates its overall resourcing. My concern is that minority communities, the Traveller community in particular, have been left behind and failed by the State. The State has repeatedly not allocated enough funding to address the very serious shortcomings in Traveller accommodation identified by international human rights bodies. These are very serious failings. There is an onus on all of us to put demands on the Department to allocate more funding when it makes those choices and when choices are made about the allocation of funding and how it is spent. Ms Carr made a good point on flexibility in this regard.
Preferences for standard accommodation were also mentioned. Are those preferences sometimes related to the living conditions on some of the halting sites?
Ms Sinéad Carr:
I can only speak for the Limerick experience, and we have people living on halting sites and also in general housing. Traveller families would be looking for general housing. The Deputy is correct that some conditions are not great, but I do not believe this is the reason people are looking for general housing.
Pádraig Rice (Cork South-Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On the conditions people live in, I cited an example earlier. I know it is an historical case but it is from 2018, so not that long ago. It is within the last couple of years. Reference was made to a persistent problem with rodent infestation; inadequate sanitation; extreme overcrowding; safety concerns about access to the site; illegal dumping; inadequate heating systems; unsafe electrical works; a high rate of childhood illness caused by living conditions; and no amenities or safe play areas for children. These extraordinary living conditions were found in Ireland in 2018. I know they are being addressed by the relevant local authority.
What really concerns me, to take this example again, is the failure by the local authority in the case to consider the best interests of the children, including those with additional needs; a failure to clear passageways for children if they wanted to travel to school; failures in terms of record-keeping, transparency and accountability; housing allocations that were incomplete or not processed, meaning families may have missed out on getting a home or moving up the list; carelessness in administration practices that resulted in overcrowding and serious risks on the site for children; and failure to comply with and implement the minimum requirements for the TAP, which places a statutory duty on local authorities to meet the accommodation needs of Travellers.
The report identified numerous failings within the local authority in how it deals with Traveller accommodation. It recommended that the oversight of the report's recommendations be held at the CEO level and that there be ring-fenced budgets within that. Do other local authorities have similar issues? One of the other things that struck me from that report was the reference to "prolonged paralysis" in the system within the local authority. Are there concerns about some of the issues identified by the Ombudsman for Children in terms of the administration in other local authorities?
Ms Sinéad Carr:
To be fair, I know the ombudsman has also signed off on that and indicated the office is satisfied it is being tackled now in a more appropriate manner. If the Deputy is asking me if I will stand over whether every single site is at an appropriate standard throughout the country, they are not. There is a lot of work to be done. It is much like when we are dealing with housing in its general sense. We also find people who are very vulnerable tenants who can also live in extraordinary difficulty because of the significant level of holistic supports that needs to go around them. I have been working with Travellers now for nearly 30 years in various forms, and I have found there is always a strong cohort for which just providing accommodation on its own and sorting out the immediate, superficial bits like cleaning up the site does not deal with the issue. The issue is an awful lot more ingrained. We need social workers, mental health supports and parenting supports. All the stakeholders need to work together to genuinely address this issue.
Pádraig Rice (Cork South-Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am conscious of the time. I have one remaining question.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Mr. D'Arcy would like to come in first.
Mr. Frank D'Arcy:
Regarding allocations, the situation has improved. We have made 95 allocations in Dublin city to Traveller families in the last five years. One of the things we talked about was flexibility. We were able to acquire 11 units in the last three years, funded by the Department, especially for bigger families. We were able to go out and get a four-bedroom or five-bedroom unit. We spent €4.8 million on the acquisition and refurbishment of those 11 units. That was proactive.
On waste management, I take the point made about oversight and monitoring. We have introduced a new system in Dublin city since the start of 2025 and now we are able to monitor all the waste collected. We are driving forward with the bulk waste collection as well, which has assisted us.
Pádraig Rice (Cork South-Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have one remaining question on which I ask for a written response if we do not have time. The opening statement from the CCMA says the local authorities are committed to delivering "culturally appropriate" Traveller accommodation. Do the witnesses have specifications and a definition for that? I think this is an ongoing issue that needs to be addressed.
Ms Sinéad Carr:
This is probably my favourite topic at this stage. I think most of the sector would have issues around the definition of what is "culturally appropriate". There is no clear clarification as to what people understand. It is understood as different things by different people. This puts a local authority in a very difficult position when trying to deliver a particular unit. There is a gap between what is going to be funded and what is interpreted as culturally appropriate. I understand work is being done by the National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committee and the programme board to clarify that. That will really help.
We need to be able to manage expectations of what is capable of being funded and what is not possible. I understand there are a number of families - and I have some in my county - where engagement with the equine side of things is particularly important. If we are to accommodate equines and horses as part of our overall Traveller accommodation, we will be looking at a minimum of one and half acres per animal. We would then have to look at waste disposal and other aspects in this regard. If we are talking about culturally appropriate accommodation, there is far more involved than just building four walls and a roof. A serious look must be given to whether this is appropriate.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I welcome our guests and thank them for being here. Returning to the question of social workers, I accept of course that they are needed. From my work in my area at home over the years, I know many other sectors of the population need social workers as well. It would be an unreasonable situation if the money to pay the social workers was ultimately coming from Traveller accommodation per se. Could this be fully clarified? It was raised earlier, but I ask the witnesses to comment from their knowledge. I will then move on.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
If Ms Carr does not have a specific answer to that question, which was raised at a previous meeting, she can do her best to answer it.
Ms Sinéad Carr:
Different local authorities have different structures and set-ups. In the case of one social worker in Tipperary, the vast majority of that person's work is undertaken with members of the Traveller community. That social worker also assists with other homeless people. It may be different in Dublin, which has a different structure.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In a general sense, and I commend the overall role of the local authorities in this regard, but it should not be the case that the costs for the social workers come out of the budget for housing for Travellers. It would be very bad practice.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is reassuring. If there is any supplementary information, I would like to get that too.
Mr. Brian Kennedy:
To give the Limerick perspective, there are two social workers in the team we have. They are 90% paid for out of the Traveller accommodation budget and 10% from council resources. The rest of the team, which includes a senior executive officer, a project manager - one of the first project managers in the country to be appointed - a caretaker, a community sustainment officer and an administrator, are paid from council resources.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
With great respect, I think it is wrong that social workers are being paid from the Traveller accommodation budget because social workers are needed by the entire population.
We are not going to resolve the matter here and just wanted to put the matter on the record.
On the HAP schemes, I presume the witnesses would agree the ideal is that few Travellers or indeed, very few or any of the population would be in the HAP scheme if we could achieve the right outcomes. The optimum or the best outcome for Travellers is to be social housing and in their own appropriate housing or whatever. Can the witnesses comment on the HAP scheme in terms of the number of Travellers involved and how the scheme is working and on their reflections on that?
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Do the witnesses agree that it is not ideal and it would be much better if people were in social housing?
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Yes, it is not the ideal for anybody.
In the initial presentation, reference was made to solar panels and retrofitting and fuel poverty. The latter is a real issue here and, God knows and God forbid, with what is happening in the world at the moment could become a shocking issue. Can the witnesses comment on how the retrofitting of Traveller houses fits into the overall retrofitting situation? Is there positive discrimination? How does this work? How are councils getting on with retrofitting? I ask because retrofitting would be really significant even without the worst case scenario with the oil situation but in present-day conditions.
Ms Patricia Phillips:
We did a solar panels project with the families in Rathkeale. We sat down with them and discussed what was best going forward, and outlined how they could save money in this new accommodation. We put the idea to them and they thought it was a good idea. It is the first project that we have done in the county. It will be a pilot project to see how it works and we hope to be in a position to roll it out.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Well done and congratulations on that great initiative. Is Traveller housing part of the general retrofitting schemes in every county?
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Even within that, the councils do whatever can be done.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Last, I get the impression personally, but maybe I have not read the newspapers in sufficient detail, that the public opposition to Traveller housing has reduced. Am I correct?
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In my region we are very fortunate that way and have been.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the Senator. I thank Deputy Quinlivan for stepping into the Chair and call the Deputy.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I wish to follow on from the comments made at the previous committee, which our guests probably did not hear, but it was about the number of Travellers in homeless accommodation and we did not get a real answer. I thank the CCMA for the figures and for advising us to interpret them with caution, which we accept. In fairness, the figures are more reflective of what was said at a previous session. It was 549 in 2024 and 432 in 2025, which we cautiously accept. I want to put that on the record. We did not get an answer from the Department and I was disappointed because the delegation did not seem to have any clue of how many people were Travellers. I understand that people will identify and will not identify as Travellers, which is an issue.
I wish to ask a brief question because I asked most of my questions at the previous session. The capital expenditure was changed in 2020 and the Department said it was done to make it easier for local authorities to apply for funding. Can the witnesses give us a view on that and outline how it has worked?
Ms Sinéad Carr:
From our perspective, it is working very well. Normally, we operate a three to five-year capital programme. In some of those years, you may have a relatively quiet spend, as it might be in the early stages of design and then as you move on. In some years, a small amount may be spent but a significant amount of money may be spent in years 2 and 3.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Do our guests think it would be better to do an average of their years to get the spend?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Would it be fairer to calculate the average spend by adding up all the money spent divided by the number of years?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In some years a council might spend nothing or a low amount as it is planning projects.
Mr. Frank D'Arcy:
In Dublin, in the last five years the total spend by the Traveller accommodation unit, which is a stand-alone unit for us, has been approximately €48 million, of which €16.8 million was spent on capital projects and we were in receipt from the Department of just short of €13 million. It goes back to what the chief executive of Tipperary County Council spoke about earlier. They have looked at flexibility in respect of acquisitions for us previously and where we have got issues yet want to drive specific projects forward, then they have been very accommodating.
Mr. Brian Kennedy:
For the Traveller accommodation programme between 2019 and 2024, we spent about €7.8 million in revenue but in one of those years, we only spent €200,000. It depends on what stage projects are at. Last year we did not have a very large spend but this year we intend spending about €3.5 million. It depends on the year. People can see that substantial capital money has spent over the previous Traveller accommodation programme and we hope to continue that over the next five years.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Again, how long does the process take for a project? I know all projects differ. It has been suggested that the Department never refuses an application. Is that the sense for people here? I mean that they have never had their application refused. Are applications sent back to local authorities for clarification? Do the witnesses have an estimate of any projects that have been delayed due to waiting for a clarification?
Ms Sinéad Carr:
In terms of the timeline, it can be very difficult with Traveller appropriate accommodation. For instance, most of you would be aware of a project in Cabra, in Tipperary, a number of years ago. That went on for a significant period. It was unnecessary, as it happens, but they did not move into the house until it was finished. The timelines are very difficult because different issues arise that you have to address that would not be in the normal course of events so it is difficult to cite an example. The timeline for the actual design and planning is probably the longest period and the build is the shortest period.
Mr. Frank D'Arcy:
We have done site improvement works with paths, lighting, sanitation units, electrical connections and water connections for sites that we wanted to bring in to be authorised. We have done lots of site improvements at Labre Park, St. Dominic's, St. Margaret's, Tara Lawns and places like that. Again, we never had any major delays when it came to receiving funding from the Department to assist us with those works.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am acutely aware that taxpayers' money is being used but when there are issues where a council comes with something that is not exactly right and then the Department has a duty to us all to get that right. I thank everybody for attending here today.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I apologise to our guests for my late arrival and missing the presentation but I have now read the statement.
I have a couple of questions. The issue of the accommodation of horses was mentioned. In my own county of Kilkenny, we have had a number of horse projects proposed and stalled for years.
It is probably 20 years at this stage. Temporary facilities were put in for horses and then removed because there were development pressures around the St. Catherine's halting site in particular. There has been political interference in it, which is regrettable. Horses are an intrinsic part of Traveller culture and the accommodation of facilities for horses for Traveller families is essential, particularly in group housing schemes, be that achieved through some directive issued to local authorities or a much more supportive role in how such projects can be rolled out. We have seen here in Dublin but also in Offaly where Traveller horse projects have been hugely beneficial to the welfare and well-being of young Traveller men and boys, and also to the welfare of animals. It is important that this accommodation be made for Traveller families.
Separately, I do not know if there is any TAP in the country that has accommodation set out for temporary halting bays for families who like to go on the road for the summer. This is something I feel strongly about. Many families like to travel for the summer. It is part of their culture. Is it something we could give consideration to, perhaps through this committee looking at recommendations at a way families could head out on the road and have facilities where they could pull in during the summer months in particular?
I have a question for Mr. D'Arcy specifically. Dublin County Council has made great progress in the work it has been doing. That is a huge capital spend. I understand there are 30 new builds under way this year. I know that 2024 was a quiet year but that has been explained in terms of activity and lack of activity. It is important that the ambition of the TAPs be fully funded. I would say to the Department that it is important that this ambition be met. I congratulate the council on its work.
I look back at some of the projects in my county, where there is significant overcrowding, families are experiencing significant difficulties, there are challenges in finding either Traveller-specific accommodation or social housing for those families, and development pressures have come up around the sites. It is something that is a wider question for this committee around trying to address these issues and reduce those pressures.
I welcome the caravan loan scheme, the expansion of which has been really positive. It had been sought for a long time. An increase of the loan amounts to €80,000 has been most welcome.
The final point is on the question that has been raised about social workers. It is about wraparound supports for families and ensuring that accommodations can be sustained in the long run. Given many of the challenges that local authorities face, including where accommodation does not suit, there is resistance at local level or, sometimes, where there is political interference, having wraparound supports from local agencies and a collaborative approach is vital to ensuring that young families in particular can sustain a housing allocation, stay there for the long run and be happy in the community they settle down in.
Ms Sinéad Carr:
I will leave the Dublin city question to be dealt with by Mr. D'Arcy. In terms of the accommodation of horses, I am actually a horse lover myself, so I understand the appreciation. There are a couple of challenges when we are looking at that. Group housing is generally built in urban areas, and to be fair to most of the Travellers I am dealing with, that is generally where they want to live. When dealing with horses, we are looking at at least 1.5 acres per horse in terms of animal welfare. One then has to look for a space for waste disposal for the horses and for the payment for that. One is also going to look at the whole issue of animal welfare. Notwithstanding the infrastructural costs associated with that, one also has to look at the environmental and amenity cost, which brings its own problems when adjoining other residential units. There is also a need for somebody to actively manage that and to support the horse.
Having said that, there are ways of doing it. It does not necessarily have to be through group housing or the housing provision element. There are plenty of NGOs and other groups out there that can work with the council on looking to access supports to facilitate the renting and management of lands by certain families. That is probably the way it can work best if it is done in a collaborative manner. It is something that can be looked at, but to tie it in with the accommodation causes a significant problem. However difficult it is now to get accommodation through the system, this would make it even more difficult, particularly when we are stuck for zoned serviced lands around the place.
On the accommodation for transient sites, we need to look at that but it is my view that we need to look at it under a different structure. For a start, dealing with it on a county-by-county basis is not meeting the transient needs of those families. The management of such sites also needs particular attention. I know from dealing with the representatives of the Traveller community on our own LTACC over the years that their preference was to deal with the immediate accommodation needs of their families before we started looking at the transient needs of somebody else. I understand where they are coming from. It is not as easy as just dropping a couple of sites in a couple of counties and Travellers will turn up and leave as appropriate. There are other significant issues that need to be looked at if such sites are to work effectively.
I will leave the questions on Dublin city to the other witnesses, as I cannot deal with those.
Mr. Frank D'Arcy:
There are three points. Regarding the Senator's comments on new builds, our chief executive has been dissatisfied, to put it mildly, with the number of new builds that Dublin City Council has rolled out and has met the LTACC twice already this year. We need to get new builds up. We are happy that we are moving forward with Cara Park and we will have the submission down to the Department in July, with a couple of other small ones in Avila Park, Reuben Street and Camac Park as well.
In relation to horses, the Ballymun project has been very successful and we are pleased with that.
Regarding temporary halting sites, I have written a note to myself to say it is a very interesting idea. I think that what Ms Carr is saying is that, if we look at the matter in a bigger way, it might be more successful. It might be a worth exploring.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On that point, local development companies such as LEADER companies - particularly those in Kilkenny, speaking from experience - have done good work with Traveller families. A solution can be found. The horse projects have a hugely beneficial effect on the welfare of the animals and on the well-being of young Traveller boys in particular. It requires a more focused attention nationally in terms of supporting Traveller families.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I believe a horse project would be a valuable addition, particularly where there are LEADER companies that would be willing to step up to the plate and work with the Traveller community. This is probably separate to the issue of accommodation, given the difficulties Ms Carr outlined as regards aligning 1.5 acres with accommodation. A separate peace incorporating the LEADER companies, in association with the local authorities, would be a very welcome move. From a mental health point of view alone, it is certainly worth investigating greatly. I thank the Senator.
Dessie Ellis (Dublin North-West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I wish to speak on a couple of points. There have been fire safety issues, mainly on halting sites. I have spoken to Mr. D'Arcy previously about some of the halting sites. I have also seen a lot of units down in Cork. This needs to be looked at more, along with the issue of the fire safety equipment that is on site. Sometimes, hoses are not available or not working. It is a major issue because we cannot afford to have something like what happened previously where there is overcrowding on sites.
I was interested in hearing about the modular homes. We are aware that the caravan loans are short term. Would it be feasible to move more towards modular homes? I do not know what the reaction of the community would be. I know some of the community would be happy with the idea of modular homes. It would probably make more sense to concentrate on that a bit.
I was down in Springmount a few years ago and looking at the sites down there. I note that Cork has no horse project, Limerick has no horse project, and there is fierce opposition to the whole idea.
This is not just for the Traveller community; this is also for local communities. There is fierce opposition to the whole idea of looking at this. In my area, there are three horse projects on Dunsink Lane. The three of them are unofficial, mainly, but they provide a massive amount of help in the area for the local people and the Traveller community. It has a massive knock-on effect. I am involved in one of them in a lot of ways. I would like to see people being a bit more open to looking at this, not just for the Traveller community. I feel there is a lot to be gained by following it.
Mr. Frank D'Arcy:
I will take the question about fire safety. At the April LTACC meeting, we had a full presentation from an external fire consultant, which was very beneficial and has led to a full survey of all the sites and the hooters, looking at all the equipment. I was very pleased to see that. We will see where that takes us in the next six months, but I am happy to report that.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does anybody else wish to come in?
Ms Sinéad Carr:
I do not know whether Deputy Ellis wanted a comment on this. As regards modular homes and the horse project, it is not necessarily that people are close to it. There is a better way of delivering it. Sometimes people forget that many Travellers are in social housing of whatever form and they rent and purchase land for horses, and there is nothing wrong with that. It needs to be recognised as well. What we are talking about are the more marginalised who need particular support and do not have access to that, but providing accommodation for horses alongside group housing schemes does not work in the current environment.
Dessie Ellis (Dublin North-West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We differ on that.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That concludes our business this afternoon. On behalf of the committee, I thank all the witnesses for attending and answering our questions and for their opening statements. We look forward to working together in the coming years, no doubt.