Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means a witness has a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts - I do not believe we have any today - are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts. They may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.

That is the formal part done. I warmly welcome the chairperson designate, Dr. Shane McCarthy, as well as Ms Treasa Langford and Mr. Michael Mulloy, who are accompanying him. His opening statement has been forwarded to the members. Given that they have had a chance to look through it, I ask Dr. McCarthy to give a two-minute synopsis, if that is okay, and then we will proceed to a very brief session of questions and answers.

Dr. Shane McCarthy:

In my submission, I outlined the role and purpose of the Aquaculture Licences Appeals Board. I have set out the membership of the board and briefly my professional background as a solicitor of 25 years' standing with experience in regulatory law.

I have chaired a number of State and other regulatory boards including boards carrying out various appeal functions. I have a particular interest in regulatory law and regulatory matters and acting in the public interest in that regard. I set out further in my opening statement my experience as a member of the audit and risk committee of the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority for the past number of years which gave me an understanding of some of the issues relevant to the working of the Aquaculture Licences Appeals Board.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Dr. McCarthy. I will now open to questions. I call Deputy Mac Lochlainn. We will keep it to five minutes, given the time we have. That is to include the question and response. There are countdown timers located around the room. We will try to keep within the five minutes.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I wish Dr. McCarthy all the best. I have looked at the various appeals bodies he chaired over the years. He brings extensive experience. I do not have any concern about his capacity. A big concern when speaking to the aquaculture industry and people who object to licences in various locations is the time it takes to make a decision. There have been a number of examinations of this issue. The recommendations are clear. I submitted a parliamentary question recently to the Minister about plans to increase the number of personnel to examine this. I understand the appeals board is impacted by appropriate assessments from the Marine Institute and other delays outside of its control. I appreciate it is not entirely within the board's capacity. In the aquaculture industry, people say to me they genuinely have no issue with people's right to object, it is just the timeframes.

The industry is completely underperforming in relation to its potential. I said at our meeting earlier that the Faroe Islands has 1% of the population of this State yet it has a bigger aquaculture industry than Ireland. The delay in making a decision, whatever it is, severely impacts the ability of the industry to reach its potential. The planning system on land in terms of local authorities and An Coimisiún Pleanála, the new body replacing An Bord Pleanála, will be trying to cut out the bottlenecks to making a decision. Local authorities have a defined period and then it goes to the next level. That is where the problems have been. What is Dr. McCarthy's vision to make those timeframes reasonable and fair? What additional resources would be required to do that? What is his view on other organisations? The Marine Institute, for example, needs more people to go through appropriate assessments. I cannot understand why it takes so long. I was given an example yesterday of six years waiting for a decision. I think it was on a renewal. That is unacceptable. No industry can survive that. While one is waiting for a renewal, one is operating within the environmental standards of that time. It is not good for the environment that people are operating within them. From talking to people in the industry, they accept the right of people to object. That is sacrosanct in a democracy but they also tell me they want to adhere to the highest environmental standards possible. They just want it to be done within a reasonable timeframe. That was a bit long-winded but I hope Dr. McCarthy is better at being succinct that I am.

Dr. Shane McCarthy:

I understand fully the question the Deputy is asking. I greatly appreciate the question, however, I have not been involved in the board up to date. I consider it a key part of the role of the chair of a board to ensure practices and producers are followed efficiently.

I have no difficulty in committing to returning here in six months' or one year's time to discuss where the needs for further efficiencies are and where further resources could best be allocated. However, if the question relates to the current practice, I have no problem in handing it over to either Treasa or Michael.

Mr. Michael Mulloy:

I thank the Deputy for the opportunity to respond and thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing us to come in here today. Delay is extraordinarily frustrating. I am from an industry background myself. I was chair of IFA's aquaculture committee for two terms and am extremely aware of the delays. In fact, the company from which I retired has been awaiting an appropriate assessment for six years. I am painfully aware and have suffered first-hand from the problems of which the Deputy speaks. It is interesting how when one is on the other side of the fence, looking at it from the outside, one can see the problems. Basically, our determinations have to be robust enough to sustain a judicial review. We get into a legal countryside that is very complex and very slow. We had a judicial review on a single farm application for which the judgment took over a year to write. It ran to 600 pages because the issues that were raised are highly complex and the skills required to address those deficiencies in the judgment are hard to find and procure. I have the benefit of having been on both sides of the fence and I sympathise with the regulators on the complexity and difficulty of the issues involved. That said, from the industry perspective it is frustrating. We are entering a new round of finfish applications now. In turnover terms finfish are the backbone of the industry. Farmed finfish landings are worth approximately €160 million and it is important that they are fully licensed. As we stand at the moment, under the licensing regime they are all relying on a section 19A(4), which does not give them same benefits and protection as a full licence. Also, as the Deputy rightly pointed out, the public interest is not being safeguarded by the prolonged application of that section 19A(4).

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Thanks Mr. Mulloy. Deputy Cahill is next.

Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I too would like to congratulate Dr. McCarthy and wish him well in his new role. I suspect the Cathaoirleach is tired of me at this stage but at every opportunity I get I raise the delays in the processing of aquaculture licences and I have to raise it again today, along with the carrying out of appropriate assessments. I understand that it is delicate process. I live near Cromane, County Kerry, and there are plenty of issues there. I am aware of projects where the fishermen cannot apply for EU funding because their licence has either expired or it is expiring. This did not start to happen today or yesterday but has been going on for years. It is historical at this stage. We really need to get our act together here in regard to this. I plead with our guests to do everything possible because we are speaking about people's livelihoods. We are speaking about people who want to develop and expand their businesses. I am aware of projects that are shovel ready but their hands are completely tied. I have raised it with the Minister and at every level at this stage. We must talk to the people with responsibility for this particular area and take out the stick, as we say at home, or the ash plant.

Dr. Shane McCarthy:

The Deputy's concerns are very much noted, but I will repeat what I said to Deputy Mac Lochlainn. I acknowledge that part of the role of the chair is to make sure that the operations of the board are done as efficiently as possible. There are, of course, other constraints that will limit those efficiencies. As I said, I have no difficulty coming back on a future date and, as was described, reaching out and describing where the delays to the desired efficiencies are arising.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I call Deputy Gallagher.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I wish the chairman well in his brief. This is a follow-up on Deputy Mac Lochlainn's contribution. Is there anything within the legislation or the guidelines that says a decision must issue within a certain period? We are frustrated when it comes to An Bord Pleanála. The process lasts as long as a piece of cord. It goes on and on. I do not know whether the witnesses can do something about this or whether they could advise the Minister or recommend to him that decisions should have to be taken. While others will have an input into it, it is the witnesses at the end of the day that a finger is being pointed at for delays. Have they at this stage - or they might let us know later - going back to, say, 2023 the number of appeals as a result of a Minister refusing a decision and the number of appeals as a result of a Minister granting an aquaculture licence? Does it vary or are most of the appeals from those who are opposed to the Minister granting a licence? The witnesses do not have to have that information today but maybe at some stage, or they can come back. Is it many years? I am sure it is not that many.

Also, hopefully the board will get its website up to date soon to show that Dr. McCarthy is the new chairman and it is not the lady who was there previously. That is only to show that I keep an eye on the board.

Mr. Michael Mulloy:

Regarding the Deputy's question about the nature of the appeals, the majority of them tend to relate to the granting of licences by third parties who wish to have that decision overturned. We also have appeals from applicants who want to vary the condition and the like that were granted. Because of the way the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine dealt with the licence applications post appropriate assessments, the shellfish licences were granted. Approximately 600 shellfish licences were granted and now it is getting around to determining the finfish sector. There are approximately 32 applications in there, eight of which are in public consultation. We can anticipate that they will lead to appeals that ALAB will have to deal with, so the new chair will have his hands full from the word "go".

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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How much time does one have to appeal from the time the licence is issued or refused?

Mr. Michael Mulloy:

Thirty days.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Thirty calendar days.

Mr. Michael Mulloy:

Yes.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I call Senator Boyle.

Manus Boyle (Fine Gael)
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I wish Dr. McCarthy the very best in his appointment. My colleagues have addressed a lot of the questions. How many new licences would be applied for in a year?

Mr. Michael Mulloy:

I do not have that figure, but there are renewals applied for all the time. There is quite a backlog. As a result of Deputy Mac Lochlainn's PQ, we know 295 applications are being delayed by the lack of appropriate assessments, AAs, which are determined by the Marine Institute. Without question the Marine Institute needs to be better resourced in order to deal with these appropriate assessments. It is a key issue.

Manus Boyle (Fine Gael)
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Chair, is there any way we can put pressure on the Marine Institute when it comes in here to address these concerns to try to move things along? There are six-year delays.

Mr. Michael Mulloy:

I know.

Manus Boyle (Fine Gael)
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From what I hear from people in the witnesses' industry, it is just sheer frustration. Everything is just drawn out and drawn out. I think if we could get some kind of mechanism in place to try to speed the thing up, that would take a lot of the pressure off ALAB and would speed the whole thing up.

Mr. Michael Mulloy:

At every opportunity, we have been trying to make this point. As recently as last week, we had the opportunity to meet the Minister of State, Deputy Timmy Dooley, at Ros an Mhíl, and his assistant secretary, and these points were raised. We do not waste any opportunity of raising these issues.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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To respond to that, I also agree with Senator Boyle that it is absolutely shocking that we are looking six-year delays and a backlog of 295. Any industry facing that kind of backlog and slow process and throughput would understandably be under huge pressure. This committee will need to get to grips with it. That includes questions to the Marine Institute, which will be before this committee in due course. We will also have a similar meeting to this to speak with the chair designate of the Marine Institute. It is definitely something that will be high on my list, and no doubt the Senator’s and those of other members.

I wish to make a few brief comments as well. I welcome Dr. McCarthy. I know he has been waiting a long time and, unfortunately, it took a considerable amount of time for these committees to be set up. That is regrettable. However, the committee is here now and we are having this meeting. I hope there will be no further delay to him getting in there and setting about the work of doing this. I also understand the licensing delays being experienced in the sector begin upstream of the appeals board. It is a problem the board is facing and grappling with rather than one it is responsible for creating, and that needs to be acknowledged.

That said, I take heart from the responses today and I urge Dr. McCarthy’ to do everything he possibly can within the powers he will have as chair to expedite, find efficiencies and use the role he has, as we will use the role we have here, to push for more resources and more efficiencies within the whole throughput in the licensing process. I just wanted to say that. It is not a question, just a brief statement.

With that, we have concluded our business. I thank the witnesses. I also apologise to Ms Treasa Langford. My note has her as "Teresa", so I said her name incorrectly. My apologies for that. It is Treasa. These things are important. On behalf of the committee, I thank Dr. McCarthy for coming here, as well as Ms Langford and Mr. Mulloy.

As there are no further matters for discussion, the meeting stands adjourned.