John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Apologies have been received from Deputies Ardagh and Quaide.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House campus in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to speak from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I will ask members participating via MS Teams, prior to making their contributions to the meeting, to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I remind all those in attendance to make sure that their mobile phones are switched off or on silent mode.

First on the agenda is our consideration of the Revised Estimates for Public Services 2025, Vote 37 - Social Protection. I welcome the Minister, Deputy Calleary, and his officials to the meeting to discuss the aforementioned Revised Estimates. While the committee has no role in approving the Estimates, it is an ongoing opportunity for the committee to examine departmental expenditure to make the budgetary process more transparent and to engage in a meaningful way on relevant performance issues. The Revised Estimates for Vote 37 - Social Protection were presented to the Dáil on 20 May 2025. The social protection Vote is significant in terms of the overall expenditure, accounting for €27 billion, or approximately 25% of the total annual budget. The important functions, role and responsibility bestowed on the Department are reflected in its budgetary allocation. We, as representatives, see the issues that arise on a daily basis for people across the length and breadth of the country. Examination of the allocation, impacts, outputs and, critically, outcomes are a key matrix that this committee takes seriously and it will engage with the Department to improve performance budgeting.

I now call the Minister, Deputy Calleary, to make some brief opening remarks.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach, leis an gcoiste agus leis an gcléireach as an gcuireadh a thabhairt dom a bheith ina gcomhluadar inniu chun plé a dhéanamh ar na Meastúcháin Athbhreithnithe don Roinn Coimirce Sóisialaí don bhliain 2025.

I thank the Chair, members of the committee and the clerk for their invitation to be here today to discuss the 2025 Revised Estimates. Given the general election cycle, this is one of the occasions that the Estimates, of necessity, are presented deep into the year at a time when the Department has already spent a large proportion of the budget, as set out in the Revised Estimates Volume, REV. Nevertheless, it is important to deal with it. I look forward not just to working with the committee today but in the course of the next four and a half years and to getting feedback and engaging with the committee.

To date, the Department has already spent more than €11 billion in 2025, supporting various groups within society, including families with children, pensioners, people with disabilities and carers, and working-age individuals facing different contingencies such as illness and unemployment. We also provide ongoing support to those who have come to Ireland seeking support, fleeing war, notably from Ukraine, but also under UN programmes from the Middle East and Africa.

The assistance that the Department provides is both in the form of payments and also through services like employment supports and programmes such as the school meals programme. Reflecting on my first five months in the role, it is not the expenditure that stands out, but the experience of travelling across the country and engaging with various groups. This includes those who rely on support from the Department, the exceptionally dedicated staff of the Department across the country who strive to serve them, and the broader community of advocates and volunteers in NGOs and the community and voluntary pillar nationwide, all of whom work collectively and tirelessly to support those most in need.

In framing the financial Estimates position for 2025, and comparing it with the outturn for 2024, my officials have sought to provide the committee with a like-for-like comparison between the two years. This includes isolating estimates for the cost of the Christmas bonus and all the other exceptional cost-of-living supports delivered in the final quarter of last year as part of the budget 2025 measures. Similarly, the cost of temporary protection for Ukrainians measures, which are outside of the normal business-as-usual profile, are separately identified in the briefing documents before the committee today.

The Revised Estimates, which the committee is to consider today, reflects a provision for 2025. As we all know, this is a year that exhibits increasing external uncertainty for the economic outlook of Ireland and the world. Projected spending for the Department in 2025 is €26.9 billion compared with an estimated outturn for 2024 of €26.99 billion. However, it should be borne in mind that spending in 2024 was boosted by the inclusion of more than €1.7 billion in one-off, cost-of-living supports.

The work of the Department is broad in scope, supporting people throughout the life cycle, from the registration of birth and payment of child benefit to the provision of income support when people reach pension age. The Department's expenditure, at €26.99 billion for 2024, continues to be the largest of any Department, representing more than one third of gross current Government expenditure.

I agree with the Chair that we must ensure our social protection system is properly structured and provides support when people need it most, including at times of national and international crisis.

In recent years, it provided support when people needed it most, including at times of national and international crisis. In recent years, the Department and its staff, along with others across the public service, have provided support to people through a pandemic, then supported those displaced by war, dealt with a very significant a cost-of-living challenge and, in addition to economic storms, supported people with literal storms, most recently with Storm Éowyn in January of this year. Each of these would normally be considered a once-in-a-lifetime event but all of them have occurred in a concentrated, five-year period. The Department's budget for the humanitarian assistance scheme is a particular example of this flexibility of response.

In 2025, as is traditional, we have allocated €200,000 to this scheme as part of the Revised Estimates, given what we considered the rarity of these events. However, driven by Storm Éowyn, we have already spent over €13 million supporting people throughout the country through this scheme. We will address this as part of the Supplementary Estimate later this year. It is a testament to the agility of Department staff and our systems and schemes that they responded repeatedly and effectively to this unprecedented series of challenges. This is while also maintaining the routine but critically important "business as usual" work, conducting, for example, about 200,000 one-on-one employment support meetings with jobseekers, carrying out nearly 700,000 control reviews, issuing nearly 1 million public service cards, answering over 4 million phone calls, processing approximately 4 million claims and making approximately 100 million payments year after year, while simultaneously developing and rolling out major initiatives, including in the area of online service delivery, pensions reform and school meals. I know committee members will join me in acknowledging this work and thanking the staff of the Department throughout the country.

The projected 2025 expenditure of €26.9 billion is close to a normalisation of the pattern of social protection spending, but it represents a new normal at a higher level of expenditure. With additional budget measures of more than €1 billion, budget 2025 represented the third record-breaking social protection budget in a row, providing a targeted mixture of once-off and ongoing measures, which the ESRI’s post-budget analysis has shown are effective in protecting most households from rising prices, especially the most vulnerable in society. In 2024, we provided lump sum payments in two phases, first through a January bonus and then later in the year, across quarter 4, providing assistance to people when it was most needed. The January bonus in 2024 provided a double week of welfare payments, at a cost of €334 million. This had originally been announced as part of budget 2024. Then, as part of budget 2025, we provided more than €1.4 billion in a package of once-off measures in quarter 4 of 2024, supporting a wide range of social protection customers, including pensioners, families with children, people with disabilities and those of working age.

A wide range of social protection increases came into effect in January 2025. These include another €12 across-the-board increase to weekly rates, with higher increases provided for some schemes, including maternity benefit. We have also seen the introduction of a new payment, the newborn baby grant, which supports young families and recognises the happy event of a new birth. This is, however, a happy event that also gives rise to peaks in cost pressures.

These measures are reflected in the expenditure subheads presented today. The biggest single block of expenditure in 2025 will be on pensions, which will amount to more than €11.3 billion or just over 42% of overall expenditure, up by almost €817 million from the 2024 outturn, net of lump sum payments. Some €333 million of this increase is linked to additional recipient numbers, a fact which reflects the ever-increasing demographic challenge. Thankfully, people are living longer lives but that means an increasing proportion of the Department's expenditure is spent on providing income support for people in their older years. That is why the reforms introduced, including the phased migration to a total contributions approach, the introduction of pension deferral options and the phased increase in PRSI contribution rates, are so important, as is the introduction of enhanced pension entitlements for long-term carers. The launch of the new auto-enrolment retirement savings scheme, My Future Fund, from January next year will also be key to addressing this challenge.

Expenditure on illness, disability and the carer's payment amounts to €6.022 billion in 2025, representing 22.4% of the Department’s expenditure. Again, as the population ages this is an expenditure line that is increasing. Working age income supports, amounting to €4.15 billion, will account for just under 16% of expenditure in 2025. This includes payments for jobseekers, one-parent families, maternity and paternity payments and supplementary welfare allowance. An important change under this programme, which is reflected in the Revised Estimates, was the launch in March of the pay-related jobseeker’s benefit, which will help cushion the income shock that comes with unemployment. Expenditure on employment supports is estimated at €657 million, representing 2.4% of total expenditure. These supports are not only hugely important for the individuals who receive them but also for programmes such as community employment, Tús, and the rural social scheme. These and other employment support schemes provide vital help to assist people transition from welfare to employment. It is important that we retain, maintain and develop them, particularly if we are to respond to the global economic headwinds of which we are all aware and that may materialise in the months and years ahead.

Expenditure on children and families, at just under €3 billion, of which over €2.2 billion will be spent on child benefit and €300 million on the school meals programme, will account for more than 11% of expenditure. Expenditure on supplementary payments amounts to €973 million and represents 3.6% of 2025 expenditure.

I have presented a broad overview. I know members will agree that the figures do not represent the story of the impact this expenditure has on people, families and communities. I hope this material provides a comprehensive analysis of expenditure on the largest Estimate before the Oireachtas. This year will bring challenges for social protection spending, including increased recipient numbers on large schemes such as the State pension, the State contributory pension and disability allowance. However, in my short time as Minister, I have become convinced that my Department has the ability to effectively support the most vulnerable and deliver the programme for Government’s commitments in relation to social protection supports. However, neither I nor my Department claims to have all the expertise and knowledge. As I have tried to do during my time in office, I want to have a collaborative working relationship with this committee.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. I will now take questions on Vote 37 from members. I ask them to indicate the programme to which they are referring. I remind members who are participating remotely to use the raise hand feature and cancel it when they have spoken.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I do not mean this disrespectfully to any person in this room but we are not doing brilliantly on gender balance this morning. I am doing my bit but it does not look good.

As the Cathaoirleach pointed out, the committee has no role in approving these Estimates but it is worthwhile to have an opportunity to have some exchanges with the Minister. Will the Minister give an update on auto-enrolment because the dates have been pushed out so many times? When does he think it will start?

I have questions on three topics. Does the Minister want me to ask them all together or go through each one by one?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy can ask them all together.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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The second topic is the Social Insurance Fund. I am interested in the Minster's views on the future of the fund because nothing is more certain than that more money will have to go into it. I am interested in the Minister's thinking in terms of who will shoulder the majority of that burden.

The final topic is pay-related jobseeker's benefit. Has the Department put any funding aside to review the effectiveness, or otherwise, of the new scheme? How will it be done and when will we receive feedback on it?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. We seem to have followed each other around Oireachtas committees over the years. I look forward to continuing to work with her. Auto-enrolment will happen from 1 January 2026. I thank the Cathaoirleach who wrote to me. I was in Letterkenny on Friday. It is a tribute to regionalisation that much of the work on auto-enrolment is being done in Letterkenny by the Department's team based there and Tata Consultancy Services which is doing a lot of the preliminary work with us. We have been engaging extensively with payroll providers. The team has been engaging via webinars with experts, payroll providers and accountants throughout the country.

From July, we will advertise on traditional and social media, highlighting that auto-enrolment is coming and what is involved. The most recent decision to move to January 2026 was based on and informed by some of our engagements, particularly with payroll providers, given that they may have to make changes to reflect budget changes. They spoke to us about the difficulty of making two changes in one period. We want to try to engage with employers on this. Some 800,000 workers will be affected. The brand name for auto-enrolment is My Future Fund. It is to ensure people have some sort of retirement future. NAERSA, the National Automatic Enrolment Retirement Savings Authority - we come up with great names - is up and running. We are currently recruiting for the CEO through the PAS. We are also recruiting a board. NAERSA will be based in Letterkenny and will work closely with providers across the country. We have also finalised the selection of investment service providers. That procurement process has been completed. We are currently finalising contract negotiations. Every two weeks, I will get an update on auto-enrolment. The Department is very aware that this has to happen. I want it to happen so that we can give certainty to people.

That segues into the next questions on the Social Insurance Fund. It has a provisional surplus of €3.7 billion for 2024. That has been driven by very strong PRSI receipts. The accumulated surplus at the end of 2024 was €9.2 billion, based on the 2022 and 2023 surpluses. At this point in 2025, we project a surplus of €4.7 billion but I have seen that figure change. Some of Deputies in this room have seen how quickly it can change. I meant in my opening remarks to thank the former Minister, Heather Humphreys, for her work in this Department. Some of the work she led on the PRSI roadmap concerned making increases coming into 1 October each year. They are modest and incremental. It was 0.1 of a percentage point in 2024 and again this year. It will be 0.15 of a percentage point in 2026, 0.15 in 2027 and 0.2 in 2028. The estimated income that will be generated from those increases is approximately €3.7 billion. An actuarial review of the fund is scheduled for 2027. That will give me material on which to make further calls on other investments or changes. I have no doubt we will discuss that. I am awake to the challenges that face the fund, given our demographics. Equally, we have made preparation through the PRSI changes and auto-enrolment.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Did the Minister say the reports and information would be available to him in 2027 and, on the basis of those, it was his intention to make changes to PRSI or is it just a review? I am not trying to put words in the Minister's mouth; I am asking.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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There will be an actuarial review. Once we see that, we will know what condition it is in and will be able to open a discussion based on the expert information at that point. As of now, I am confident it is in relatively good shape but I am awake to the challenges that face it. That is why the review will dictate where we go next.

On the pay-related jobseeker's payment, we will review the scheme. Before I continue, I wish to acknowledge the work that has gone into it, particularly by the Department and our technical team. They put considerable work into making the changes that were needed. It worked, seeing as how people did not hear about it. We changed the technical side of the Department entirely to facilitate this. I thank everybody involved.

We will review the scheme but we want it to get up and running. The review, which will probably take place informally towards the end of this year, will feed into progress on the next stage of the pay-related benefit around parental benefit. We want to learn from this scheme to see how it has worked and what changes may be needed. There are approximately 12,000 people currently availing of the pay-related jobseeker's benefit. It is right on profile in terms of where the Department estimated it would be. We will definitely review it, particularly because of the commitment in the programme for Government around parental leave in this space.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Will the result of that review be shared with the committee?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. I try to be as open as possible.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I am just double-checking. I am not saying the Minister is trying to hide it.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I want the committee's feedback. I may not take it on board but it is important that I get it.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister rarely does, but anyway, I thank him.

Mark Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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I thank the Minister and his officials for attending the committee. I have a number of questions. My first is about yesterday's report on child poverty, which must concern us all in this committee. The ESRI has a report out in the newspapers this morning looking for a second-tier payment for child benefit, which it reckons would cost approximately €800 million a year. Is the Department planning an additional payment for targeted measures for child benefit?

On the bereaved partners contributory pension that we discussed, where is that at the moment? What financial resources have been put aside to deal with it? Have there been many applications?

I note in the reports we got that the back to education allowance is falling, with a €3 million saving in 2025. That is a concern. Does the Department know why the back to education allowance is down €3 million 2025?

On the carer's allowance, the old chestnut is the means test. What plans are there for getting rid of it? Will the Department confirm where it is at with getting rid of the means test?

My other question is about school meals. An additional €120 million was allocated for this year. Does the Minister know how many primary schools have not taken up hot school meals? Will there be an unspent amount of that €120 million allocation?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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We share the committee's concern about child poverty. The ESRI report is in-depth and interesting. On a second payment, we will consider the ESRI report. The Taoiseach made it clear to me on my appointment that child poverty was a priority for him. His Department is setting up a child poverty unit that we will work with. We are looking at targeted increases to make a difference in specific areas. When one excludes the cost-of-living measures in 2024, expenditure on the children's side of things is up €115 million in 2025. That includes €72 million for schools meals, which I will come back to, €15 million for the new baby grant, €15 million to fund a €60-per-week increase in the income threshold in the working family payment, which is a particularly targeted payment in this space and in which I have a lot of interest. Child poverty will be a priority. We will look at all reports in the context of the budget.

I hope to be back to the committee on this day two weeks, I believe, for Committee Stage on the bereaved partners payment. I am anxious we get it through the Houses this side of the summer recess. We have a budget message to go to the Dáil at some stage in the coming week as well to enable Committee Stage to start. I wish to acknowledge, and always will, Mr. Johnny O'Meara and Deputy Alan Kelly for their work in this space.

Regarding the back to education allowance, that is a consequence of full employment. The allowance supports people on the live register to get training. The live register numbers are very low but we continue to monitor it to make sure nobody is missing out. It is a side-effect of full employment.

Some €1.2 billion of funding has been allocated specifically to the carer's allowance in 2025, supporting more than 101,000 carers. In the programme for Government, there is a timeline for getting rid of the means test over the lifetime of the Government.

That is what I am working towards. In two weeks' time, in July, the weekly income disregard is increasing from €450 to €625 for a single person and from €900 to €1,250 for carers with a spouse or partner.

Mark Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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May I ask a question on that? Does the Minister know how many people that will bring into the carer's allowance? Does he have any indications?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have the figure here but I will get back to the Deputy. As a consequence of the changes, a two-adult household with an income of €69,000 will retain the maximum carer's allowance. The same carer with an income of €97,000 will retain a partial payment. In June 2022, before we started making changes, that €69,000 was €37,000 and that €97,000 was €60,000. There has been a big change and we are going to continue with big changes like that. Since the start of 2022, the number of carers on carer's allowance has increased by approximately 8,000. The figure is now over 101,000. I will come back to the Deputy on that other figure.

On school meals, we have written to every primary school in the country asking them to get involved and to take this scheme on board. The allocation for 2025 is €300 million. The majority of schools that were approved for the programme decided not to begin until September. That will have an impact on the spend. There are now 3,200 schools eligible for the school meals. We are working with schools right across the country to get them on board. We are enquiring why some are not on board. The number who have not engaged with us at this stage is now down in the hundreds. We are also making changes on the nutrition side. From within this Estimate, we are funding a dietitian in the Department of Health to work with the cross-government committee on school meals to make sure they are as nutritious as possible. In that context, we will be looking at Deputy O'Reilly's proposal regarding local providers such as meals and wheels and so on to make sure as much of this investment as possible is spent in local communities. We are engaging with any school that is not coming on board for whatever reason. We are giving such schools every chance to get on board. I will also highlight that, working with the Department of Education, we are looking at a school meals holiday hunger pilot programme for this year. We have had more than 900 applications for that.

Holiday programmes and school programmes will assist some 68,000 children with complex special educational needs. We are investing approximately €1.3 million in that this year. I am very keen to expand it in future years.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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First and foremost, even though it is six months on, I welcome the Minister to this Department, rannóg na Gaeltachta and the other sections as well. I was going to ask a question on the bereaved partner's pension. I am pleased the Minister has indicated that this will be coming fairly rapidly. I am sure there will be support for it across the House because there are many people - we all know some - who are looking forward to receiving an income from this. I welcome the fact that the Minister is working towards the elimination of the carer's allowance means test but, in the meantime, he mentioned the disregard. Perhaps he might repeat that comment for us. When will that be taken into consideration? It is gratifying to note that back-to-school allowance applications will now be taken. Many families have no choice but to apply for that. The school meals programme represents money well spent. Many children in this country depend on a full meal on the days they are in school.

On an unfortunate issue, I know there must always be a cut-off date with legislation but I have come across a number of situations in which people would have been entitled to the annual respite grant had the person they cared for lived another two or three days. Is it black and white or would the Minister consider a pro rata payment for those who had given care for almost 12 months but who lost the full year because the last payment at the end of May or on 5 June was missed? Could that be considered? When the bereaved partner's pension legislation comes into force, will it apply retrospectively?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for his good wishes. I will once again emphasise that, from July, the income disregards for carers will increase from €450 to €625 and from €900 to €1,250. I am certainly committed to continuing to increase those income disregards in line with the budget.

The bereaved partner's legislation will come before the committee before the end of the month. I hope to get it passed. We will backdate it to the date of the Supreme Court judgment. I forget the exact date but I believe it was in January 2023. We had a good discussion on this issue on Second Stage. The entitlement was created on that date. That is where we stand.

On deadlines, there are always hard cases but my Department has fantastic supports available to anybody who is in a difficult situation. There are a range of options. As all of us in the room know from our daily engagements in our constituencies, the Department does its best to facilitate people but the deadlines are there for clarity and for fairness.

I believe those are the three things the Deputy raised. Tá sé tábhachtach go mbeidh cúraimí na Gaeltachta sa Roinn freisin agus táimid ag obair air sin. Tá sé tábhachtach go mbeidh seirbhísí i nGaeilge ar fáil dóibh atá á n-iarraidh. Tá sé sin tábhachtach ní hamháin i gcomhthéacs na Roinne ach i gcomhthéacs seirbhísí poiblí trí Ghaeilge.

Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister and his staff for giving us an update. I will raise a couple of things. We all know pensioners are struggling to make ends meet but I always felt a single pensioner was under an awful lot more pressure than a couple. Could something be done in cases where single pensioners need a bit more? They still face the same bills for rent, electricity and heat. The only additional cost they do not face is for food. They still have all the same bills a couple will have. That could be looked at.

On the extension of the school meals programme, in my own town of Oldcastle, the national school is a DEIS school but the secondary school is not. The same kids go to the secondary school who went to the national school. I would like to see the programme extended to the secondary school. It has applied but has not got it. The same kids go to the secondary school as go to the national school.

The means test for carers has been brought up a couple of times. I would like to see that done away with as soon as possible because these people are saving the State a fortune in keeping their loved ones at home. It is in the programme for Government and I thought it was going to be done before the summer but now it looks like it is to be done over the lifetime of the Government. I would like to see it done as soon as possible.

The cost-of-living package in the budget could go an awful lot further if it was given to the people who need it the most. If we could give a little bit more to the people who need it the most rather than giving energy credits to people who do not need them, we could make an awful lot more headway. I thank the Minister again.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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On pensioners living on their own, we have the living alone allowance, which is worth €22 a week. There is also the fuel allowance, which is paid during fuel allowance season. I am very conscious that one person has more expenses than two living together. We continue to keep that under review.

At this point, my current priority is to extend hot school meals to every primary school and to make sure they are all included. We have grown the scheme. The former Minister, Heather Humphreys, grew the scheme exponentially over the last three years. We are going to catch our breath and take learnings from it. That is why the nutritional review is under way. When we have taken learnings from it, I would like to see DEIS secondary schools supported as well. The Deputy makes a really good point. When you are in sixth class, you get a hot meal but, when you are in first year, you do not. However, it is a budgetary matter. This €320 million is a very substantial investment in hot school meals. The road to progress is to take secondary schools in but I will not put a timeline on that at the moment.

We are not planning to have a cost-of-living package in this year's budget.

The one-off payments had a function at a particular time. I will be more focused on long-term schemes, some of which we discussed here. These will have a more long-term impact on people.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I wrote to the Minister regarding auto-enrolment and how it is imperative it proceeds from 1 January. The Minister answered that question. The profile in terms of the cost of pensions is very important, as is making sure the country is able to pay for it.

My second point concerns jobseeker's pay-related benefit. How is this going and how much will be spent on that for the remainder of the year? When will the Government be able to proceed with parental benefit? The importance of the hot school meals programme was mentioned by members of the committee. As a previous member of the board of management of a national school and chair of a secondary school, I know how important and impactful it is for the people who use it. I have received feedback that parents do not have to prepare lunches anymore. The announcement of the opening of the back to school clothing and footwear allowance scheme was made this morning. Have there been any changes to that scheme for 2025 and how much is expected to be spent on it this year?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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We are proceeding with auto-enrolment. The team that is dealing with this is more than happy to come before the committee. It would help to get knowledge about auto-enrolment out there and build the committee's confidence in it. The team is exceptional and I would encourage the committee to bring it before it.

Jobseeker's pay-related benefit is where we thought it would be at this stage. We are about ten or 11 weeks into it. We have a budget for it. We have a €160 million, which is part of a number of schemes. We are coming to a point where the top tier of payment will start producing and that will be a really interesting point in terms of where the labour market is because 13 weeks was based on the average length of time a jobseeker takes to get a new job. We will be coming to that point over the next four weeks and that will give us a really good indication of where it goes.

I acknowledge that school communities put significant work into the school meals programme, including boards of management, principals who have to source them and staff who must manage it. I acknowledge we would not be where we are today with school meals without school communities. I have had that feedback from parents as well. It is not about the cost savings. It is about not having to do the lunch, be it chasing them out the door at quarter to something in the morning or late at night. More important than any of that is the fact that nutrition is linked to education and there are people who are getting a hot meal who were not getting it previously. It makes such a difference in terms of their education. That is the most important link.

We are providing more than €54 million for the back to school clothing and footwear allowance. We have opened applications and supported 149,000 families last year. The majority of them will automatically be reapplied for. There are no major problems in terms of form filling. We will begin paying the money on 14 July to probably about 113,000 families. I have to get Cabinet approval before some changes. I want to enhance it and I hope to have that next week. I will revert to the committee on that.

Regarding parental benefit-----

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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What is the timeframe?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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There is no timeframe yet. We will learn from jobseeker's pay-related benefit. We will learn the lessons from and get feedback about that. I am focused on making sure jobseeker's pay-related benefit is working the way we want it to and working for recipients. I am happy to share with the committee our work on that towards the end of this year and early next year.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Does the Minister envisage implementation in 2026 or 2027?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I cannot say. That will depend on the review and the budget.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Returning to the school meals programme, previous members mentioned getting access to it locally. There are plenty of businesses and meals on wheels services that could provide it to schools in their locality. There has been quite a challenge sometimes in terms of organising that through the national organisations but there could be a more local aspect. Ensuring there is nutritional value is really important.

Regarding beneficiaries of temporary protection, what is the profile of that for 2025? Does the Minister envisage a tapering off of that in 2026? What is the view of the Department on that?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding school meals, every school makes that call. I met a company earlier this week in my own area. It is a very local company that is supporting local schools. I am very conscious of the burden on school communities regarding managing procurement, etc., and we are trying to make it easy but also to encourage them to use local services. We have some good feedback on meals on wheels providing that.

Regarding beneficiaries of temporary protection, there are more than 114,000 PPSNs while the figure for weekly payments to beneficiaries of temporary protection is 3,000, of which 68 were awarded. The figures are beginning to fall given that the number of new arrivals has gone well down. We are making payments in respect of 29,200 people, which includes adult dependants. They are people who are not living in designated accommodation centres. That is compared with 39,300 in June 2024. We reckon that about 25,000 people who came in as beneficiaries of temporary protection are in employment and that 40,000 have left the country, so there is a big turnaround in some of those figures and it is happening every day.

Mark Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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I want to bang a drum I have been banging over the past number of years. It happened to me again on the way up in the car this morning. It concerns people being disallowed the fuel allowance because there is somebody living in the house with them who is in receipt of a social welfare payment and in employment. It is wrong because we are in the middle of a housing crisis and these people are putting a roof over the heads of whoever is living with them. I ask the Minister to look at this, particularly for those in receipt of social welfare payments. It is wrong, given that we are in a housing crisis, that we disallowing the family the fuel allowance because that person is in receipt of a social welfare payment. It is something I raised before. If the Minister could look at that again, I would appreciate it.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with the Deputy. We will look at it. I will not give him a guarantee but I hear him and I do not necessarily disagree.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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In terms of pensions, profiling and modelling for the budget process, will the Minister explain in more detail how he conducts that analysis for spending?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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It is very much based on our CSO figures. We have all those figures and our own figures from the Social Insurance Fund. We are very lucky in that we have a fantastic team in the Department whose job is to analyse all the statistics and make the demographic projections. They are doing a super job, which is evident in the health of the Social Insurance Fund. It is also relatively evident on the pensions side of things. Even though they are big increases in expenditure, it is on profile. It is as estimated. This team does super work across all our programmes in terms of demographics, population changes, etc.