Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 11 June 2025
Committee on Transport
Driving Test and NCT Delays: RSA
2:00 am
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of today's meeting is for the joint committee to be given an overview of driving test and national car test, NCT, delays. On behalf of the committee, I am pleased to welcome from the Road Safety Authority, RSA, Mr. Sam Waide, chief executive officer, Mr. Brendan Walsh, chief operations officer, and Ms Alison Coleman, director of people development and culture.
I will read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I remind Members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.
In this regard I ask members partaking via MS Teams that, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.
Mr. Sam Waide:
I thank the committee for the invitation to speak and for the opportunity to hear the views of members as public representatives. I recognise that today’s session is focused on services provided by the Road Safety Authority, in particular, the ongoing frustration regarding driving test wait times and the wider customer experience. I acknowledge and apologise to members and their constituents for that frustration from the outset. This is not a situation any of us consider acceptable and I welcome this dialogue as a chance to outline the actions we have been taking to address these challenges and improve the service we provide to the public.
For many people driving is not a luxury. It is a requirement for employment, education and caring responsibilities among others. At a national level, mobility is an economic enabler, a public service and a vital component of rural and urban cohesion. Safe mobility is at the heart of everything we do. We are steadfast in our dedication to reduce the average waiting time for the driving test service to ten weeks or lower by early September 2025, as committed to the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, and as outlined in our driver testing action plan, shared in recent weeks and available to the public. This is not just a target; it is a national imperative, one the RSA is fully committed to delivering on. Key measures within the plan being delivered and deployed include accelerated recruitment and training of testers, additional training facilities for that training, expanded testing capacity through greater operating hours, enhanced overtime programmes making better and greater use of the testers we have and improved slot allocation, targeting availability where it is most needed across the country.
To understand the current pressures, it is important to provide context specifically with regard to the demand for tests. The volume of driving tests delivered by the RSA has risen steadily and steeply over the past four years, from 157,000 in 2021 to more than 253,000 in 2024. That represents an increase of circa 61% in testing volume across that timeframe. Demand has been driven by factors such as a growing population, delayed demand from the post-pandemic, inward migration, a growing economy and reliance on personal transport in areas where public infrastructure is less accessible.
Following receipt of sanction from Government, the RSA embarked on a large-scale recruitment campaign to hire and train additional driver testers. This is a time- and resource-intensive process. and we will go into that in detail. It involved reviewing 1,400 applicants across the country, more than 740 interviews, 200 practical driving assessments, Garda vetting and reference checks for those being onboarded as well as seven weeks of structured training and on-the-road evaluation for successful candidates. It is worth noting that diverting experienced staff to support this process has had a knock-on effect on existing capacity. However, this was necessary, not only to resolve the immediate backlog, but to future proof the service against volatility in demand.
It is important to recognise that the delivery of this action plan is only possible because of the shared determination and professionalism of our staff with support from our unions. From driver testers on the front line working with learning candidates, to our call centre and administrative staff, to the teams and managers scheduling the tests and responding to applicant queries and logistics, each of those individuals plays a key role. To ensure transparency and public accountability, the RSA is publishing the action plan on our website tracking the key metrics we are confident we will deliver to restore the service. As of 31 May 2025, the average national waiting time for a driving test stood at 20.6 weeks, down from a projected 27 weeks at the end of April. While there is still a considerable journey ahead to get to the ten-week service level agreement by September, we are encouraged by the early indicators of that delivery.
The Road Safety Authority holds statutory responsibility for the oversight, development and quality assurance of the national car testing service. Over the past 25 years, the NCT has been a cornerstone of Ireland’s road safety infrastructure, helping to ensure that vehicles on the roads meet essential safety and environmental standards. The service is delivered through a nationwide network of 50 test centres, and expansion to additional locations is actively under way. In 2024, more than 1.7 million vehicles were tested, an increase of 144,000 compared with 2023, reflecting both rising vehicle volumes and sustained public compliance. As of last week, the national average waiting time was 14 days. This is driven by the fallout of some closures during the service’s busiest period in quarter 1 and the operational capacity of the service. Over the past month the service has been below the service level average of 12 days on occasions and the service is expected to achieve 12 days by the end of June. Our clear expectation is that the service is consistently accessible, timely, and delivered to the highest quality. Where issues do arise, they are addressed through robust governance structures with regular performance reviews, escalation mechanisms and continuous improvement measures in place with the provider. At previous meetings of the transport committee, frustration at delays in NCT testing were voiced by many members. We have worked hard with our delivery partner to bring the waiting time back in line with our service level agreement in 2024 and we are currently piloting recommendations made by this committee with the service provider, and we welcome the interest and support of this committee throughout. It is important to reinforce that the NCT is designed as a periodic roadworthiness check - a snapshot in time. It is not a substitute for regular maintenance or mechanical diagnostics. As such, we continue to emphasise the responsibility of all vehicle owners to ensure their vehicle is presented in a safe and roadworthy condition for testing.
Last year, 174 people died in road collisions in Ireland, a stark reminder that road safety continues to affect families in many ways. It requires constant vigilance, long-term investment and shared responsibility across society. While today’s focus is rightly on how we deliver services, I emphasise that every part of our work is ultimately about protecting and saving lives. As CEO, I am appreciative of the commitment shown every day by my staff in the RSA and our delivery partners. We care deeply about our purpose and we are committed to delivering high-quality, responsive and relevant services. I am joined by Brendan Walsh, chief operations officer and Alison Coleman, director of people development and culture. My two colleagues have led the delivery of an expanded driver testing service. We know that this committee has legitimate concerns, as do the public and many Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas. We are here to address those questions and concerns today. We welcome the opportunity to engage with the committee and to explain in detail the steps we are taking and the reasons we are confident that those steps will restore the service.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the chief executive for those opening remarks. I thank him for his presence today, and that of the chief operating office and the director of people development and culture. It is important to put it on the record, but I am sure he is aware of the frustration and anger at national, regional and local levels at what are unacceptable waiting times for driving tests. We will focus on the RSA's remit on driving tests and NCT delays. We hope to have a separate hearing on road safety in the early autumn. I know the RSA has its road safety conference in Tullamore, County Offaly, this afternoon. I think it is at 2 p.m.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I note Mr. Waide's apology. All members encounter this issue in their constituency offices every week.
It is the aspiration of nearly every teenager of 16 or 17 years of age to get his or her hands on a full driving licence. It is so important, as Mr. Waide said in his opening remarks, in terms of employment, caring, education and other areas. It is important that we acknowledge the work of driver testers and their extraordinary efforts over the past 12 months, in particular, to mitigate waiting times. They have been working in difficult and challenging circumstances. I welcome what Mr. Waide said about aspiring to reduce waiting times to ten weeks by the end of September. I feel strongly that we need to look beyond that and see how we can get the waiting times down to six or even four weeks. Every teenager or person of whatever age, once he or she has done the 12 compulsory lessons, should be able to get an appointment within four or six weeks. In my own town of Clonmel, there was a 24-week waiting time, although maybe it has dropped marginally. In Tipperary town, the waiting time is approximately 20 or 21 weeks.
I welcome this engagement. I know the RSA has had good engagement with the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, as well. Today is about good, productive, constructive scrutiny of the action plan and the key measures being deployed. With that in mind, I now give the floor to Deputy Michael Collins, who has seven minutes.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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I will ask a number of questions and ask the witnesses to make note of them and answer afterwards. If I stop after every question, I will not get through what I need to.
Obviously, the issue of waiting times is a huge one in many areas. It can be up to 11 months in west Cork, where I come from, in Skibbereen. It is a large geographical area from Castletownbere out to the Sheep's Head Peninsula and Mizen Head Peninsula and down into Clonakilty and Skibbereen. It is outrageous that people have to wait ten or 11 months for a test, from the figures I have here.
I also wish to discuss the American licence agreement. Why are people who spent maybe ten years in Ireland, went to America to work for some time and then came back not allowed to drive with an American licence? It does not make sense and it adds to the backlog of what is going on here when they have to go through a driving test. Surely to God that can be shifted, or how can we move to them getting instructors for, say, ten lessons just to get them driving, because they are well able to drive?
I will break this down a bit more in a minute. Are driving testers being given overtime? Can they do overnight work or evening work or bank holidays? This is the only way we are going to get the waiting times down, if testers can basically work around the clock to alleviate the problems that exist. Was the idea of training instructors to be testers ever considered? They could be testers in different areas to where they work as instructors. We have to look at every measure we can to try to bring the waiting times down.
In an engagement with the previous committee, the RSA stated that it would bring the service-level agreement back to ten weeks. This was in April 2024. It was stated at the time that this would be done by the summer. The statement today steadfastly says more or less the same thing again and that the waiting times will be down to ten weeks by September 2025. In all fairness, this promise has not been delivered on. Why would the public believe that this year will be any different? I might get an answer to that later on.
What specific measures have been implemented to make sure that this does happen? How many additional driver testers have been hired and what is the plan for further recruitment, specifically in my area of west Cork? We could talk about any area, but it states here that, in Skibbereen in January of this year, the figure was zero. Does that mean there was no driver tester in Skibbereen in January? The RSA says that, in May 2025, there will be one and two in September. We are going nowhere. We are going to be here again in the same situation in 12 months' time raising the same questions. I would appreciate if the witnesses would make note of this and answer me.
What are the target timelines for reducing the waiting times - Mr. Waide might have said that already - to the ten-week target? We know the impact that waiting for a test has on a person's life. Young people and their parents are continuously coming to our constituency offices pleading and we are getting the same generic drivel back from the RSA when we contact the organisation. These people are genuine and they are trying to start their lives. In many cases, they cannot get accommodation, so they have to use a car to get to their colleges. They are trying to start their courses. They are mainly young people and they cannot get on the road because they cannot get a test. God help any of them if they fail a test. Good God almighty, they will be back in the system again for another seven, eight or who knows how many months. It is a desperate situation for young people. I cannot understand why it was allowed to get so out of control. I have been talking about this issue since I was elected to Dáil Éireann in 2016. I was criticised by other Opposition TDs at the time, who said I was talking rubbish, but I obviously was not, because the proof is in the pudding here.
Are there significant differences in waiting times across various test centres? How is the RSA communicating to the public any updates and changes regarding driving test delays? The witnesses talked about Covid-19 but we are gone well beyond Covid-19 now. We need to move to the point of calling out some driver testers. I mean no disrespect to any individual and I will not mention any names, but I had a case recently, not for the first time, that someone had a legitimate insurance disc on the windscreen - this person went to the Garda afterwards, which confirmed it was legitimate, and to the insurance company that had posted the disc to the person - but the driver tester refused to do a test. Imagine someone being put back ten months by a driver tester's mistake. I have been in communication with the RSA since and all I have got is a drivel answer, not a proper one. There was no respect shown to the poor young person who was left broken-hearted at the test centre for no reason. I saw the difference in colour between a legitimate disc and a non-legitimate disc when the parents brought them to my office, but the tester did not. The son rang his parents straight away and said he could not get his test done. The parents went straight to the gardaí and a garda said that the disc was 100% perfect. They went to the insurance company and were told that the disc had been posted, the same as was done for everyone else and the disc was 100% perfect, but the tester refused to do the test. That might be a one-off case but there must be others like it. We are backlogging the problem and creating bigger problems.
Another issue is the American licence, so I would appreciate if that could be considered. Can any changes be made so that if someone comes here from the United States, he or she does not have to go through the same system - could be viewed as being at a learning stage - as if never having driven a car before? Could there be a separate agreement between America and Ireland, the same as there is with Japan, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, South Korea and Taiwan?
Mr. Sam Waide:
I reiterate that, as an organisation, we apologise for the frustration that the Deputy and his constituents feel about the driving test waiting times. Regarding the assurance we have given, we have demonstrated over the past few months that we have reduced the waiting times. I accept that, be it 20 weeks or 24 weeks, it is still unacceptable. That is why we are delivering the reductions across the country for all the test centres. We are confident that we will reduce it to ten weeks for everyone across the country by September.
On the Deputy's question about confidence that this will be delivered, as set out in our opening statement, we have conducted the largest ever recruitment exercise in the history of the RSA since it was set up in 2006. There have been more than 1,400 applicants. What is different is that we have not only interviewed significant numbers, but we have appointed and brought on board additional driver testers, on a permanent basis, which is an important point. We are training those and we can see a difference across different test centres.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses. I have quite a few questions, so I will go through them quickly, if that is okay. Since the RSA announced the driving tester action plan, what specific actions have been taken on recruitment? What are the numbers? Is the RSA closing in on its targets and has any consideration been given to recruiting beyond the jurisdiction?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Mr. Waide to deal with my questions because I have limited time.
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
At the moment we have 153 active testers in the service. Of them, 41 have joined the service since the start of the year on a permanent basis. As we speak, there are 32 people in training and 20 of them will hit the service at the beginning of July while the remaining 12 will hit the service on 12 July. On 14 July, there will be a further intake of 18 driver testers, which will bring us to a total of 200. So we have the number of people. In most cases, we have offered people a centre and we are now working through the training process.
I reiterate that we normally train groups of anywhere between 12 and 15. We have made significant changes to how we train. As part of the implementation of this plan, we increased the number of locations for training which is how we are now delivering the training of 32 testers. So we have the resources we need now.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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What has the RSA specifically done in the three weeks since publishing its action plan and bringing it to the Minister?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
We have dropped the waiting time from 27 weeks. As of last week, it was 19.7 weeks so the period has dropped below 20 weeks. We are also continuing to offer additional overtime. Over the weekend of the last bank holiday, our staff worked overtime and delivered over 1,000 tests and 700 of those tests were delivered on the bank holiday Monday. We have opened up testing slots for the bank holiday Monday in August. We are continuing to work Saturdays. Across the country, we have also commenced working from 7.25 a.m. until 7 p.m., where allowable. So we have significantly increased capacity.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Some weeks ago I made a suggestion in the Dáil which led to praise and criticism but that is what happens. I suggested that in a rural county like mine where there is no Luas, DART or significant public transport, young people in particular are penalised by the requirement to have a fully licensed trained driver in the car with them. It is not very practical in rural areas, particularly when trying to get to college or work. I recognise that the law is well intentioned. It is a good law but its practical application does not work so well. I made my point very much centred on road safety. My mother-in-law was one of the 174 people unfortunately killed in a road traffic accident last November so I am not blind to what needs to happen. The point I want to make is that this practical application does not always work. I note that the RSA responded in the media to what I had said in the Dáil. Has the RSA looked at any new technologies since the requirement was introduced? Has it given consideration to the possibility of having in-car speed restrictors? Has it considered the introduction of in-car blackboxes as used by the insurance industry? These options could negate the need to have a fully licensed driver in a vehicle at all times.
By way of illustration, this issue does not just affect young people. Around the time I spoke in the Dáil on this issue I received an email from a man in his 30s from Dublin who now lives in west Clare. He is a latecomer to driving. He made the point that if he wants to go to a supermarket or into Ennis then, if he is to follow the spirit of the law, he must go to his neighbour's house, knock on the door and ask if the neighbour can sit in the car with him for an hour because he wants to go to town and come home again. The law is good but the practical application is not there. What is the RSA doing to modernise the law or at least its practical application?
Mr. Sam Waide:
On the last question on modernisation, as I hope most committee members will be aware, the RSA works in partnership with other agencies. There is a number of agencies from different Departments that work on road safety interventions. As an organisation we provide extensive research, which is one of our statutory obligations. At a minimum, our research provides the risks and dangers of speed, and the correlation between the higher the speed the greater the serious injury and, in many cases fatalities, unfortunately. To my technical understanding, commercial vehicles have speed restrictors. If the question was would the RSA advocate to have speed restrictors placed on vehicles, we would welcome any intervention that changes behaviour, particularly that of vehicle drivers, so that people follow and adhere to safe speeds - I am not referring to speed limits - based on the condition of the road, the environment and other people who use the roads such as pedestrians, cyclists or whatever mobility solution.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Speed restrictors have been around for at least two decades because when I attended college I had a little moped or scooter that had a speed restrictor. The RSA does not seem to have done anything about it.
The RSA has recommended the creation of a new test centre in Clare. Where will it be? When does the RSA expect to open it?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
The supplier is looking at a couple of sites in Clare. As the Deputy is aware, we had identified one site but unfortunately terms could not be agreed between the landlord and the service. As a result, the supplier has had to look at alternative areas. They are actively looking at multiple sites in Clare. I imagine they will have a centre operating within the next two years; that is what we asked them.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Crowe and I will be on the opposite sides of the same debate again today. In 2023, 14 unaccompanied learner drivers were involved in collisions. As I think one fatality is one too many I will base my remarks on driver safety and encouraging good behaviour on roads. I would like an update on the loophole that exists where learner drivers can apply for a test, not take one but continue to renew their learner permits. Has the loophole been closed? What actions is the RSA taking to address this?
More than a decade ago, the 2013-20 road safety strategy had a commitment to close the loophole by quarter 1 of 2014. Even in the last couple of years we have seen Ministers speak out and take action on this. Today, we are discussing waiting lists for driving tests and we know that this contributes to no-shows. In total, there were 8,863 no-shows in 2024. So learner drivers can continually renew their permit every year by sending the RSA the proof that they have applied for a driving test or by using an email that confirms they have requested to join the waiting list for a driving test. Therefore, these inexperienced drivers in some instances have never actually had to take a test. Please update me on what myself and others consider to be an extremely serious issue.
Mr. Sam Waide:
The Deputy has rightly pointed out that people apply for learner permits but do not do a test. The issue has been discussed by the Road Safety Partnership Board. It is one of the ministerial priorities which has been agreed. In fact, the RSA is the lead agency in addressing that. Reference was made to the law. This issue does need legislative change but first we need to address the driving test backlog and reduce the waiting time to ten weeks. As the Deputy has rightly pointed out, a significant number of people are on their third or more learner permits. That will be addressed through the legislative change and the RSA will be able to implement the legislative change.
I will pass on the request for more detail on addressing the issue of learner permits to my colleague, Mr. Walsh.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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We are dealing with a spike in waiting times at the moment.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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There was also a spike in waiting times a couple of years ago, after Covid. However, this commitment was made 11 years ago so that rationale given does not stack up. A couple of years ago, the then Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, gave a commitment that the number of people on their third permits would be reduced to 10% by 2024.
Actions were taken by the then Minister, Eamon Ryan, too. The RSA is saying legislation is required. I have been told that primary legislation is not required. I am looking for clarity and an explanation as to why people are waiting 11 years for this to be implemented.
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
These are regulations that we have drafted with the Department of Transport. We are in the process of final engagement with the Department about how those regulations will be commenced. I would expect it to be imminent but that is obviously not a matter for ourselves but for the Department and the Minister. We are almost there to provide the regulations that are required to support it because there are significant changes that have to be made to how one drives and how one learns to drive by preventing someone from getting a learner permit because they have not passed their driving test. We fully share the Deputy’s concerns. It is something we are quite passionate about. There are 56,000 people who are on three or more learner permits.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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On three or more permits.
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
We do not think the number of people renewing on an ongoing basis who book a test and do not take that test is huge by comparison with the number of learner permits that are active in the country. As of the end of last year there were 370,000 people with learner permits. As Mr. Waide said, we are processing about 250,000 people a year through the service at the moment. We hope to uplift that to about 280,000 by the end of this year with our 200 driver testers and there will be this inward-out mechanism. I absolutely share the Deputy’s concerns. We are working with the Department. We have the regulations ready to go and we look forward to doing whatever is required once they are commenced.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Walsh for the update. That action is taking place now but it has taken far too long for us to get here. To be clear, is legislation required to make this happen?
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Legislation is required.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Okay. There are €1,486,650 in payments for no-shows. Is that a reason this has not been acted on? It is because there is a financial reason there.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am asking that because others have asked me. This is the RSA's opportunity to say.
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
I think it is a fair question. On the utilisation of how people take their driving test, we see on average between 2.5% and 3% of people not turning up to their driving test. The cost of a driving test is €65. That is retained by the RSA because if someone does not turn up for his or her test that morning we have the resource standing there, the lights still have to come on and so on. There is no mechanism to return that. The customer does have the ability before then to cancel the test and maybe-----
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am going to be cut off here. I know that it is the 3% of 275,000 and that 3% might look like a small number but it is 600 people a month when we are dealing with such a backlog. Someone has up to ten days before the test to change it. I think the RSA could do more in that regard and give people more time to reschedule their tests. That could significantly reduce the number of no-shows because the no-shows are adding to the inefficiency of the system.
We have to stamp out a culture of non-compliance on our roads. It is not good for road safety and driving behaviour. The RSA has a lot of responsibility here but it will have our support in advancing solutions as quickly as possible.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in and for their presentations. The method Members of the Oireachtas has for directly contacting the RSA for urgent appointments has worked quite efficiently for us over the year and I thank them for that service.
We received a reply to a parliamentary question about driver test waiting numbers between 2021 and 2025. While there was 57,000 in 2021, maybe due to Covid, it reduced to 21,000 in 2022. It went up to around 58,000 in 2024, and then 83,000, which is an increase of 25,000 in one year. The RSA’s opening statement referred to “following receipt of sanction from Government” to take extra steps. When did it receive sanction from the Government exactly?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Was it only then that the RSA or the Government decided there was a problem? Clearly going back four or five years, definitely four years, there was a problem with the increased numbers and waiting lists. Was the Government slow off the mark in giving the RSA the sanction for extra?
Mr. Sam Waide:
Previously at this committee we highlighted the need for additional driver testers. The RSA has monthly and quarterly governance meetings with the Department. The initial sanction was for temporary driver testers but it became apparent that the trends and volumes being experienced kept pointing back to the need for permanent driver testers so we submitted that business case to the Department in June last year and we got the sanction in September.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Therefore, the RSA was looking for it well in advance of when the Government took action and gave it the sanction.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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The RSA statement mentioned the expiry of fixed-term contracts and that people were now being employed on a permanent basis.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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It obviously feels that employment on a permanent basis is a much better way to do business to ensure retention of staff. Is it correct to say that?
Mr. Sam Waide:
Yes, it is. I have said this in public in the committee previously that for a service we are providing that has an ongoing demand the most sustainable way is a permanent workforce because, as hopefully committee members and the public will appreciate, in an economy that is not only growing but one that has full employment people are only interested in permanent positions. Temporary positions may address a short-term need but permanent employment is more secure for anyone.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Was it frustrating for the RSA that only temporary contracts were being sanctioned by the Government?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Would it have been better for the RSA if it had the-----
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Temporary contracts were only a stop-gap and not likely to address the increase in numbers.
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
Today we have sanction for 200 driver testers. That is what we need to recover the service and keep it where it needs to be. We had a sanction, submitted to the Department in June last year, that was granted to us in September. Before that we had identified to this committee in October 2022 a need for what we believed at the time to be 170 driving testers. What we agreed at the time with the Department was that we would run a competition for temporary testers. We had sanction for up to 75 testers but we only actually managed to secure 41 because they were temporary roles. As a result, we ran into a situation where those individuals were operating in the service.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I will stop Mr. Walsh there. Would the RSA accept that the sanction it had received was never going to solve the problem?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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People were not satisfied because they were temporary roles and they would have preferred a permanent role.
Ms Alison Coleman:
Deputy Daly is right. A permanent tenure is more attractive. We received 1,400 applications in the most recent competition. At that particular time we received only 500 applications for temporary posts. We had been sanctioned for up to 75 at the time but we could only secure 41. The tenure was one of the main reasons for people refusing jobs at the time.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I have several more questions. There will be 91 new testers in July, which is exactly half of what they will bring the total number to, which is 182. As a result of all of this, has the RSA been running at 50% capacity of what it thinks is necessary?
Ms Alison Coleman:
Capacity has lessened in day-to-day operations due to the amount of training that is going on with our new intake. As Mr. Walsh alluded to earlier, we have 32 people in training and they will come on stream in late June. In the second week of July we will have a further 18 testers. They will start on 14 July. This will bring our whole-time equivalent numbers to the required 200. They will not be operational until the end of August.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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What percentage of them are on full-time contracts, or will be on full-time contracts in September, as opposed to temporary contracts?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Where are the new locations and when will they be open?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for their statements and presentations. In the opening statement and submission the RSA says it is using modelling and forecasting to look at demand for tests down the line. How long has it been using this modelling and forecasting?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
We have been working on new ways of looking at how we calculate our numbers since the end of 2022. I joined the service in 2022 from a private background. I brought forward the type of forecasting I had used in my former role, which took into account other factors outside of CSO data and information we had normally available to us. Since then we have started to look at how we model. We look at the pipeline of people undergoing essential driver training, EDT. We look at the number of lessons that have been uploaded. We are now looking at the number of approved driving instructors, ADIs, operating in the service. To give some context to this, when I joined the service there were 1,600 ADIs operating and there are now 2,600. This is a big increase, which means more and more people are learning to drive. We are looking at these factors. Bringing all of them in and looking at these various indicators has allowed us to put forward modelling which has resulted in us identifying the need for 200 testers. As I have said, in 2022 we identified that we will probably need 170 at the time. Over that period of time we have also seen a significant increase in the number of applications. These applications are being driven by socioeconomic factors, such as those outlined by committee members. These include people moving to rural Ireland from cities where they had not needed a car. We also have inward migration, which is driving the need for driver licences for people who arrive here for work. We take all of these factors and we add all of them together, and this is how we are now forecasting our business.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Would Mr. Walsh say that since 2022 the accuracy of the forecasting model has not been where he would have wanted it to be? He mentioned other external factors. Is the RSA adapting its model as we see these factors come up? If there is internal migration into the country would we see this reflected and the model updated as a result of this?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
We are looking at all of the different factors. If I look at the number of people who hold learner permits at present, believe it or not the biggest group of people holding them are those aged between 30 and 39. Traditionally, it was those aged between 17 and 20. We are seeing much higher licence requirements coming from the group between 30 and 40 years of age.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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The RSA is adapting its forecast.
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
We are adapting our forecasting to do this. To give some context to this, where approximately 150,000 tests were carried out in 2019, we carried out 253,000 last year. We were only able to do this by making sure we had resources in place. We did not have enough resources because the demand was still above what we were delivering. Despite this significant uplift-----
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Was the demand above what the RSA forecasted?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Walsh is now satisfied that the model will accurately forecast the demand.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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How does this integrate into the RSA's workforce development and succession planning strategies? I want to get to the nub of this. I have looked at the numbers over the past four or five years and I see that they jump. The waiting time is reduced, then it goes up and then it comes down again. What do we have in place to stop this happening in future? How is the RSA forecasting demand and how is it making the organisation fit for purpose in terms of the people it has to deal with this?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
Having 200 testers gives us exactly what we need. In 2022 we identified that we would probably need approximately 170 driver testers to meet the demand that the time. To give context, we had 130 permanent driver testers in 2022. We knew we needed to increase this number, hence we went to the market and temporary testers were deployed into service. When we see the numbers go up and down, if we look back to the period post Covid a group of temporary testers came in and reduced the waiting time to what is required in the service level agreement because there was a sufficient number of them. From memory it was 168. We then knew this was probably the number we needed to hold. We thought the demand we saw was a post-Covid effect. The reality is that demand has far exceeded that which we had after Covid. We have looked at the number of people in the pipeline who are learning to drive, getting their learner permits and uploading their EDTs. We look at this 12 months in advance. We know that if someone is getting their learner permit the reality is they will probably need a test within the next 12 months. We are satisfied that the level of workforce planning we have in place will meet this demand.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Why was this not being done previously?
Ms Alison Coleman:
I will take this question. The temporary staffing model was never going to be a silver bullet to solve the problem of waiting times. It helped at a point in time. The first intake of temporary testers was after the unaccompanied learner driving legislation was introduced in late 2018. We took on 67 temporary testers at that stage. It was quite sudden when the legislation was introduced and we reacted with a temporary campaign. Those testers were held just as Covid hit in 2020. Afterwards there were more temporary contracts because we felt it was a temporary issue. The demand modelling was not quite accurate enough to tell us this was a persistent and consistent demand. The data we were getting showed it was as a result of legislation or Covid. Even over the course of 2023 and 2024 we worked with the Department to make sure it knew that what we could see coming was persistent, that we were going to seek permanent sanction and that we would need its support. This took a lot of analysis and work to get through. We submitted it in June and the rest is history.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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The RSA is now happy that the demand model is accurate.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I have several more quick questions. I have heard reports from constituents that bots are being used to skip queues on the sites. What is the RSA doing to be proactive in dealing with this? Has the RSA noticed anything in the relationship between pass rates and the length of time someone is waiting for a test? My theory is that bad habits are picked up by people who have not been tested and who are sitting in a queue waiting for a test. We are not seeing good driver behaviour being reflected because they are sitting with bad habits. Has the RSA done any analysis on the relationship between pass rates and the length of time people are waiting for a test?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
We are aware of the issue with bots and we believe we are dealing with it appropriately. The level of tests being made available through bots is relatively low, unlike in the UK where it is a very big problem.
The pass rates we have seen in recent months have increased. We are delighted because it means people who have waited are putting more and more effort into passing their test. We are satisfied with this.
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I thank our guests for their attendance here today. I note the opening statement and the apology for the unacceptable delays in the provision of driving test slots. The RSA has set out a commitment to reduce waiting times to ten weeks. It is an ambitious commitment and the witnesses have set out the means by which they will deliver that. There has been some progress, with a move from 27 weeks to 20 weeks and I have no doubt that my colleagues and I will be keeping track of these statistics over the next number of months.
When RSA representatives appeared before the Oireachtas joint committee this time last year, they set out another commitment regarding the implementation of data sharing agreements with local authorities in order that the RSA can share information about accident blackspots in particular areas. I was certainly surprised, and I know others were too, that such information could not be shared at that time with the organisations who are very much at the front line of dealing with making our roads safe. In the context of getting an understanding of the RSA's ability to deliver on commitments, I ask our guests to tell us whether those date sharing agreements with local authorities are in place yet. Is there a single data sharing agreement or are there individual agreements with each local authority? Has any data been shared with them yet about accident blackspots? If the answer to that is "No", what are the barriers to doing it? Are they legislative barriers or are they related to the drafting of the actual data sharing agreements?
Mr. Sam Waide:
I thank the Deputy for the questions. I will start with the last point on local authorities. As a previous Minister confirmed, local authorities have and continue to receive collision information directly from the Department of Transport. In terms of the details of that, I am sure the Department will be happy to confirm what fields and data are shared directly with local councils. In terms of the basics it would include things like where the collision occurred, the initial observation on the cause of the collision, the co-ordinates, whether it involved a car or a pedestrian, and so on.
In response to the Deputy's question about the RSA and data sharing, I can confirm there is a data sharing agreement in place between An Garda Síochána and the RSA. An Garda Síochána is the source of the data. We have that agreement in place. We also have an agreement in place with the NTA, with which we also share information that helps to inform infrastructure planning. In terms of the local authorities, the RSA has the information to share but the local authorities have stated that they require legislation to be put in place so that they can receive the data. Data sharing involves two parties: one providing the data and the other receiving it. We have an agreement in place to onward share with local authorities through the LGMA.
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Is that transport legislation or Department of housing legislation ?
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Would Mr. Waide be aware of what legislation is involved here?
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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This is an issue that came up in the early part of last year. Most of the members here would have sat on local authorities as councillors and would have had discussions with the managers for their particular areas in relation to identifying blackspots. The RSA makes the point that the Department of Transport can provide information to local authorities. How does that differ from the information that the RSA has available to it and that it wants to share with local authorities but which they cannot receive from it at this point?
Mr. Sam Waide:
It is a good question. The number of fields that the RSA will be sharing with the local authorities is considerably more. When I refer to the number of fields, I include weather conditions and all of the environmental aspects of a collision. We can share the full list of fields set out in the agreement with the committee. The more fields and information the local authorities and the road engineers have, the better informed they are in terms of what is required at particular junctions, stretches of road, cycle paths, cycle lanes and so on. This is not just about vehicles because unfortunately serious injuries and fatalities can also occur when people are out walking or cycling and not just when they are using vehicles.
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Indeed. When did the RSA stop sharing that information with local authorities because of data protection concerns? When did GDPR concerns come to light?
Ms Alison Coleman:
Just for clarity, in July 2024 we had extensive engagements with a number of parties to try to resolve this. Initially it was the RSA that was having issues with receiving and processing the data. The Minister for Transport at the time directed us under section 8 of the Road Safety Act, which allowed us to progress the data sharing agreements with An Garda Síochána and the NTA. The difficulty, as Mr. Waide has indicated, is that the LGMA does not have the requisite legislation to process the data once it is shared. The Deputy asked about the different categories of data that would warrant that and I understand it relates to personal data and concerns around people being personally identifiable. We can get that information for the Deputy and detail when exactly the issue first arose. I was aware in April 2024, when we appeared here, that it was a very live issue at that point and had been for some time. It is being addressed under the road safety transformation programme-----
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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It is still unresolved, it would appear.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank our guests for their time today. In relation to the reduction in the estimated waiting times, is this just an estimate based on the new testers coming on board or have we seen progress in recent times, in the short term? The RSA mentioned earlier that a lot of the testers are taken up with training and things like that at the moment. Has there been any progress in the short term, in the last few weeks?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
When we announced our plan we had a 27-week waiting time. As of the end of last week, it was 19.7 weeks, so within the first four weeks of the plan we have seen a significant reduction in the waiting time. We are actually slightly ahead of our estimate of where we needed to be-----
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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Are the numbers on the waiting list decreasing?
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but what about the numbers on the waiting list?
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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Overall, is the RSA confident of meeting the ten-week target? Does it have enough resources there? To give an example from my own county of Galway, we have 4,000 people waiting for a driving test invitation. Ten new testers is the target but there will only be one extra in Carnmore, which is one of the centres with a higher waiting time. How confident is the RSA that this is enough?
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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Will one extra tester be enough to do that?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
It will because it is not just one extra tester. As was previously referenced, while there may be a zero or a number on a page, that is where a tester is headquartered but that does not mean we do not bring in other testers when the demand is there. We move testers around on an ongoing basis. It is enough, and with the additional overtime that the staff there are working, we are confident that we will get to the planned ten-weeks in line with the forecast that we set out quite publicly with the Minister.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister mentioned in the Dáil that he is receiving biweekly progress reports on this. What is contained in these reports? Are they being published? Have progress reports been published already?
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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It was also mentioned that contingency measures will be drawn up if there is a failure to meet the targets. Have any contingency measures been drafted? If they have, what is contained in them?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
Our contingency measures look at a myriad of opportunities. We are looking at the capabilities of our staff internally, those who may have previously worked within the driving test community, who we would divert from their current duties with their consent. We are looking at engaging with former driving testers. We have also engaged through the Department of Transport with the Department of Defence, in case we have a need in that regard. The reality, however, is that we are confident the plan we now have in place - that we are now ahead of - will not require any contingency measures.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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At what point would contingency measures be considered?
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding the new test centres, two new locations were mentioned. Is consideration being given to expanding further in the years to come?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
Driving test centres do not actually reduce the waiting times. It is driving testers who do that. We have sufficient seats across the country. We put the driving testers where we have the demand. The building itself is somewhat surplus to requirements; it is the people inside the building who are driving the performance.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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There is a ten-week target for September. As mentioned earlier, the ideal scenario is that it would be possible to get a driving test within three to four weeks at every test centre. Going beyond September, is Mr. Walsh ambitious in this regard? Is it hoped to reduce the waiting time further?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
The ten-week period is there for good reason. It is there to allow people to prepare for their driving test. It is not just about the 12 EDT lessons that people take. They should also be doing 36 hours of accompanied driving. The EDT lessons are just one element. We believe it is the driving and the practice with an accompanying driver that produces good drivers. We are setting our targets to hold just below the SLA. If there is an opportunity to go below it, then we will take it. I preface this, however, by saying we should be mindful that if I were to say to drivers who perhaps are not as prepared as they should be that they have a driving test in two weeks, that might be a bit rushed. There is a happy medium between making a test available immediately and a very long wait. There is a need to allow time for people to prepare for the test. It is no different from any other test, in that people need time to prepare.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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I think it comes down to personal preference and whether people believe they are ready to take the test in the short term or to hold off for longer. I suggest there should be more ambition going forward beyond September.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe. Many of my questions have come up already. I will concentrate on my area because the lack of public transport in the north west means more people are forced to use their cars. Recent numbers given to me indicate 1,209 people are waiting for a driving test in County Sligo, 2,317 in County Donegal and 513 in County Leitrim, which is a total of 4,039 in the entire north west, where we have nine testers. There are five in Donegal but none in south Donegal, which is a big concern. There are three testers in Sligo and one tester in Leitrim. There are nine testers to deal with the backlog of 4,039 people waiting for a test. This means there are 449 candidates to each tester. How many tests are testers expected to do in a day?
It came up that people are now employed on permanent contracts. Is overtime being taken into account? How is this broken down? Is it over seven days a week? If the waiting times are going to come down, will testers be doing 22 tests per week? I know it is part of the RSA's action plan for September to increase the number of testers in Sligo. This is welcome, but an additional person in Leitrim would really help. The person there could be redeployed once the waiting lists have reduced. My first questions are how many tests are testers expected to do per day and is there a possibility of employing an extra person in Leitrim?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
Starting with Donegal, the waiting time there is now 15 weeks. This is a significant development. As I referred to a moment ago, the location we have on a piece of paper is where a tester's base is, but we move those testers around the country. If we take Clifden in County Galway as an example, we do not have a tester headquarters there because we do not need a tester there all the time. We move them out from Galway city as and when required. The number of tests an individual tester does in a normal given day is seven or eight. With the advent of overtime, as I stated earlier, we are doing tests from 7.25 a.m. right up to 7 p.m., where possible, and testers are working Saturdays and bank holidays. Testing on a Sunday does not actually give us a net gain because people still have to have a day off in the week. Our testers are working a lot of long hours now and we must be cognisant of this fact. The testers are putting their shoulders to the wheel at the time when we need them to do so.
As we are working through this plan we will be moving testers around the country to ensure we get all the test centre waiting times down to the level of the SLA. For example, if I take Charlestown in Finglas, the waiting time there now is around 12 weeks. We have a new group of testers there. The waiting time there previously was 36 weeks, so a huge amount of work has gone in there. Once we get that waiting time down to ten weeks, we will give the opportunity to support people going to different test centres to work in them for a while. We move people to where the need is and that is the big part of this plan. Our teams are working with us and are going to where they are needed. We look at the plan and see the number of tests required to get the waiting times in a particular area down to the SLA level or to improve it. We then send people there for a couple of weeks. This is how we are doing it.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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It is great to hear that. I hope the waiting times will come down. Another point has come up. I have heard about it from talking to several young people and driving instructors. There is a lot of frustration among young people that they have to wait six months after they receive their learner permit. They will have done their 12 mandatory lessons and spend a lot of money doing so. After they have waited their mandatory six months - instructors say this as well - those people are often coming back and looking for additional lessons. What is the logic of having to wait for six months? I do not think this is going to impact safety on the roads. Would it be an idea to trust the instructors working with these young people and allow them to certify their readiness for the test?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
There were a couple of things there. The first is that the instructors are responsible for delivering the 12 EDT lessons, but the learning to drive curriculum requirement is that trainees will drive for 48 hours and 36 hours should be done by a sponsored driver. That can be the ADIs or it can be somebody's mum or dad or somebody who has a full licence. The six months waiting time is about ensuring that people who have gone through the EDT process will have time to practise before taking the driving test. We pretty much have a one-in-two failure rate and this is not good enough. We need to work on how we are going to increase the pass rate. Of the people coming through the process, one in two is failing. As I said, the pass rate has slightly increased. It was about 53% for last month, which is great because it shows that in a twisted way the waiting time has meant that when people get their tests they are passionate for them and have practised enough. The key thing here is giving the individual the practice time and the maturity on the road to allow them to take the test under pressure. Driving with a sponsor or an instructor is different. I remember taking my test and it is a worrying time. It is about building up the confidence of candidates and their practice hours, which are significant compared with the number of EDT lessons the instructors provide.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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The problem was the waiting times were so long when people applied for their tests.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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If the waiting time is coming down, then that will make more sense. It was taking too long for people to get to do their tests.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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It would make sense that people would not have to wait the six months.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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It is especially so in a rural area like mine.
I turn next to the waiting times we get from the NCT press office. It was claimed - this was referenced in the opening statement as well - the waiting time to do an NCT was going to be 14 days. I tried it myself on the NCT website on Sunday. I looked for a test in Sligo and Ballina. The next available date in Ballina was 19 August, which is 72 days away, and it was 87 days in Carrick-on-Shannon. That is a far cry from 14 days.
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
It is. We have spoken to this committee several times about how the booking system works.
The slots are continuously updated. I will be honest. Nobody was working on Saturday or Sunday to put the slots into the service and people who have logged in on Friday evening will consume those slots. The slots are added hourly. I do it every day. I have a registration of an old car I stick in and check. When I refresh the screen, I will see it moving from July to tomorrow to June-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Walsh and Senator Cosgrove. Senator Clifford-Lee is next.
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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The RSA's submission stated a new NCT centre is planned for north Dublin. What is the location of that?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
We are looking at three areas in north Dublin. We have be careful, however, because we do not secure the leases, the contractor does. It almost had a deal done on one but unfortunately it looks as if it will not go forward so other sites are currently being looked at in the north Dublin area. They are all within the M50 ring.
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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Are these locations in north County Dublin or north city?
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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When will there be clarification on the location?
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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What is the timeline for that?
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Walsh saying there is a requirement to provide the test centre that the contractor has not been fulfilled?
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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How long has that non-fulfilment been the case?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
It was supposed to have it in place this year but unfortunately the securing of commercial properties has been a challenge for the contractor and is something it is continuously working on. I cannot tell the Senator the locations it is looking at because there is a full suite of them. Unfortunately, the reality is, as Deputy Crowe referenced earlier, once someone finds out it is an NCT centre, there are attempts to increase the price significantly. The contractor has to be careful in how this is approached.
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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I understand the commercial realities but the Northpoint Business Park, which is the closest to north County Dublin, is a significant distance away for those in Balbriggan, Skerries, Rush or Lusk and it is not at all adequate. Mr. Walsh is saying the service agreement was supposed to provide for a centre in north County Dublin this year but it could be next year before it is provided.
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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What are the financial penalties?
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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What are service credits?
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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Are these credits significant enough to put pressure on this crowd to deliver?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
Yes, they are. The contractor has to effectively pay for a facility it does not have. The capacity we have within the Dublin area at present is meeting demand because we are running multiple shifts. We have three shifts running, for example, in north County Dublin in the Ballymun and Northpoint 1 and 2 sites. We are compensating for this delay.
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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Those sites are significantly far from places like Balbriggan. Getting to Northpoint is a significant distance.
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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I would like to move onto the testing centres. Mr. Walsh said what moves driving test numbers is the testers and not the location. The RSA announced there would be three new locations in Drogheda, Naas and Sandyford.
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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There is no driving test centre in north County Dublin. The nearest centres are in the Finglas and Charlestown. I have spoken to a number of driving test instructors in north County Dublin who have shown me there are significant difficulties with this. A learner driver cannot use the motorway. If people doing their test in Finglas and need to practice on that route, they will have to get to Finglas, which is a significant distance from Lusk, Skerries or Rush. People are paying for a three-hour lesson, which is a significant cost, so that their driving instructor can drive them from Skerries to Finglas. They spend more than half of that lesson in traffic on the way there and then they do their lesson around the route. That is a significant cost when a number of lessons are involved. Why is the RSA not considering a driving test centre for Balbriggan, Skerries or Rush?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
We have Drogheda, which will be put in place. We are in active discussions with the OPW on a site just outside Swords. It is an area I know well. It is close to where I live so I know there is a need for one there. We can see the growth in population and we absolutely get that. Once we get these next three centres locked down, Swords probably has the biggest population centre outside of Tallaght within Leinster-----
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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However, the actual practicalities for a learner driver getting there------
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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Could Mr. Walsh give me a timeline on that?
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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We are talking about the youngest and most rapidly expanding population in the country and an area with inadequate public transport. It is a collection of rural towns and villages.
Like colleagues from around the country, we face the same difficulties in getting around with our young people going to college and work. It is the young people of north County Dublin who are fuelling the economy of this country by paying taxes and working all across this city. A local driving test centre is the least we need in the area.
I would appreciate if the RSA could keep me informed of any developments in this regard.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach and witnesses for being here and giving their time today. I have one or two questions on waiting times for driving tests.
There is an area in County Limerick that has one tester. Is the RSA considering a minimum number of testers per area? This tester was out sick a couple of weeks ago. While the RSA cannot mitigate against sickness because it is not scheduled like holidays, does it have any plan in place to have a minimum of two testers per area, for example, to mitigate against illness where every test scheduled for that week had to be cancelled and rescheduled?
Ms Alison Coleman:
There is a higher number of testers across Limerick, with approximately nine testers in the county. With respect to absences at short notice, it can be hard but we make every effort to make sure those applicants who have been preparing for that day are looked after as quickly as possible. We move testers around and we have supervisors who often come in to help out at short notice when that happens. The coverage in Limerick has increased following the recent campaign and we are happy with the numbers there at present.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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My next question is on the pass rate. The RSA said it is currently at 53%. Learners are now doing their theory test and the compulsory lessons. Does the RSA have statistics on whether that failure rate relates to major faults or an accumulation of minor errors in the tests?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
Those who fail the test normally do so as a result of an accrual of minor faults or a large fault. We have all of that data. As part of the wider driver education curriculum we want to overhaul that. We are working with the Department of Transport on that. We are also looking at how we carry out and conduct the test. We have reviewed the marking. We review every marking sheet produced by every tester for quality and consistency. Where we see an issue, we address that with them through training and with a supervisor. We have all of that information.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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Is the RSA considering allowing those with an accumulation of small minor offences to pass rather than fail?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
That is one of the elements in the revised marking structure we are looking at. The marking system is quite old. We have looked at it. We evaluated more than 10,000 tests. We put them through a new filter or a new evaluation. We scored them up. The pass-fail rate was the same, but there was a swing in the context of who would have passed or failed. We have not rolled that out yet because we need to engage with the ADIs, the education community, to show them what we are doing. We are doing that at the moment.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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Brilliant. On NCTs, some NCT centres will backdate to the date on which a person should have had his or her test done. People can be six months waiting for a test in some areas, depending on their work schedule and what they can accommodate. Those test centres will backdate for six months, but other test centres do not backdate. Is it a decision of the test centre?
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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Is there an outright rule that they should be backdated or should not be backdated?
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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I am asking about people who are delayed in getting a test by six months - a person who was supposed to get it done in January, for example, but does not actually get the appointment until June.
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
If a test is six months overdue, the person will only get a new certificate for six months. If the Senator is aware of anybody doing the contrary, I would really like her to make me aware of that because it is absolutely not what we support. The periodic technical inspection, PTI, test is carried out on an annual basis on the anniversary of the vehicle. That is something that we hold as absolute. If there is any deviation from that, I would like the Senator to let me know. On the six months, nobody should be waiting anything like that for a test. We have test centres opening late in the evenings. Some of them are open on Saturdays and some are even open on Sundays.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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They have improved in Limerick. In Limerick City and Limerick County there is a good selection of test centres. There are some people who have had their tests late, and the day of the test is the date that they get their certificate.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I want to focus on the action plan and on the forecasting and modelling that Deputy Moynihan talked about. I wish to look at the granular detail of the numbers. Before I do so, I want to support what Deputy Currie said. The absence of progress on limiting the reliance on multiple learner permits, a key objective of the 2013-20 strategic plan, is unacceptable. Can any data be provided today in respect of learner drivers involved in fatal collisions? I have a lot of that data in front of me. What percentage of those learner drivers were on licences of more than three years? If that data cannot be provided today, I ask that the witnesses follow up with it.
I am going to ask some questions on contingency as well. The Minister spoke in the Chamber on 14 May about discussions with the RSA on contingency measures that could be put in place if the plan was not going according to plan. The witnesses have outlined some of the contingency measures which are there. They can be implemented in terms of the targets not being met. With regard to the action plan, how confident are each of the witnesses of achieving the ten-week waiting time by September? Are they very confident, confident, hopeful, or sceptical?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Good. Looking at the numbers, there were circa 253,000 tests carried out last year. What was the actual demand for tests?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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That is approximately 20,000 more than the actual number of tests. What is the forecast demand for tests this year?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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That is not including the waiting list that existed at the beginning of this year.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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It is the actual demand. The capacity we are trying to build by the end of September, with 200 testers carrying out 7,200 tests a week, is a capacity in the system to do 360,000 tests a year. Looking beyond September and coming back to my goal to reduce the waiting list below ten weeks, I know we may have a spike in dealing with the learner permit issue. As there are between 50,000 and 60,000 in that regard, there may be a spike. With a capacity of 360,000 tests in the system every year, we should be able to bring the waiting list significantly below ten weeks by this time next year, based on the maths we just discussed. Am I right or wrong on that?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I want to talk about that. At the moment there is a recruitment plan to have 200 by September. What is the average age of permanent testers at the moment? Are there concerns around that?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Has allowance been made for planned retirements this year?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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What is the average working time of a tester? What is the normal working week?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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That is interesting. If we look at last year, there were on average 36 tests a week per tester. There were some weeks in the action plan at maybe 44. In a normal working week, in the absence of overtime or working on public holidays, that is, nine-to-five, five days a week, how many tests does a tester conduct?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I am trying to ensure the robustness and resilience of the plan, which provides for 7,200 tests a week by 200 testers, and confirm that it allows for annual leave or sickness.
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
We factored all that in. The objective is eight tests per day but, as I referenced earlier, sometimes people do not turn up. We would still have the slot available, but maybe nobody has taken it. Regarding the numbers to which the Chair has referred, we believe they are more than enough to get us to the SLA and to hold us below the SLA,. More important, on Deputy Currie's earlier point, they are enough to really get stuck into dealing with the multiple learner permits. We expect that as we are granted the authority to contact those people and make them to come in to do a driving test, we will have the capacity to deal with them.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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We are building capacity in the system to be able to do 360,000 tests. That is just simple maths - 7,200 tests a week multiplied by 50 working weeks in a year. Even at 48 working weeks per year, it is nearly 350,000 tests. There is plenty of capacity to get the waiting time well below ten weeks within 12 months.
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
We believe that will be a natural output. To return to my earlier point, while going below ten weeks is something we believe we will get to naturally, there is a balance we need to find. I do not think it would be right, certainly from a driver education perspective, to have somebody go through their EDT, apply for the test and get a test the following week. We believe there is a period of practice required to get people ready for the test.
Mr. Sam Waide:
If I may come in, it is a robust plan. Going into 2026, as Mr. Walsh explained to Deputy Moynihan earlier with regard to demand planning, we are continually monitoring the forward plan and forecasts.
There has to be an appreciation by everyone. We made reference to moving testers between test centres. We made reference to allocating people-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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My time is short. That is the-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I will ask a question on that to get into the granular detail of the plan. There are a lot of different centres in the action plan whereby waiting times are going to be reduced by half from 20 weeks to ten without the addition of any new tester. I am going to take Clonmel as an example. Can the witnesses tell me about the waiting list? I know it is a 20-week waiting list but how many are on it in Clonmel?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Can Mr. Walsh explain in the context of the EU working directive and so on how the waiting list can be reduced by half in Clonmel without an additional tester?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Looking at the action plan, I see one tester for Clonmel, and Clonmel migrating to two testers by the end of September. Is Mr. Walsh saying we could have an additional tester in Clonmel but that detail is not in the action plan?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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It would be of concern to me if there is a plan to reduce the lists in Clonmel, and indeed many other examples within the action plan, simply by overtime alone. That is not sustainable. Can Mr. Walsh confirm that we will have an additional permanent tester in Clonmel by the end of September, and we are going to go from one to two?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Tipperary town is staying at one.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Coming back to my original question, is the RSA confident that it can achieve the ten weeks by the end of September and that the capacity it is building in the system with 200 permanent testers is 360,000 tests per year? Is the forecasted demand for testing 276,000?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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What will it be for 2027?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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So we can be very hopeful of reducing the waiting lists by natural progression.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in today. It is good to hear that Mr. Walsh is living in north County Dublin, like myself. I am a Skerries woman.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I represent Dublin Fingal West, so Skerries, Balbriggan, Rush, Lusk, and the rural villages of Garristown-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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-----and Oldtown, and very proudly so. It is extremely difficult for our people to get to any of the driving test centres. I would very much echo calls for a driving test centre in north County Dublin. It is the youngest and fastest growing area in the country between Swords, Balbriggan, Skerries, Rush and Lusk. It has a huge population and we have people heading to Finglas, Raheny or even as far as Dundalk. The miles people are doing are just not warranted given the population we have so I would be very supportive of setting up a driving test centre in north County Dublin. Whatever I can do to support that please let me know. I am very happy to write to the Minister and support the establishment of that.
Second, I noted in the opening remarks that the witnesses emphasised very much that every part of the work of the RSA is ultimately about protecting lives. I would like and hope that they will come back in and talk to us about that because it is a really important focus. We have had 174 people die, as the authority noted. Is the driving test fit for purpose? Has it evolved? How often does the RSA check that it is fit for purpose and that it is focused not only on driver safety, but also the safety of all road users? It is really important, and I do not have any understanding of how often the driving test is reviewed to make sure it is fit for purpose.
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
First, is it fit for purpose? Yes, it is. Are we continuously looking at it? Yes. I referred earlier on in response to another Deputy to how we are looking at how we mark the driving test at the moment. That is just one element. We have an action in the road safety strategy around looking at the curriculum of how we learn to drive as a country. As part of that, we currently have a literature review being carried out where we are reviewing all the different driving test structures across Europe. My chief driving tester has attended meetings in other countries to look at how they do their driving as well. We will formulate that literature review into recommendations on how we want to change driving in Ireland.
We have already taken steps. The first is we have looked at the curriculum and the actual driving test. We have started that. We are currently engaged in a pilot programme. We are preparing a tender for a pilot to look at how we could maybe bring in driving test simulators, how they can be used and integrate them into the great work the ADIs are doing within the service, but also to support and increase the pass rate for our driving tests. We are looking across all areas. It is a very detailed action that is contained within the plan.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Walsh might come back to us and talk about that. I would appreciate it if we could have the RSA in again.
How does Ireland compare internationally on the driving test?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
On driving tests, we are part of an organisation called CIECA, which is a global organisation for the management of quality in driving tests. We are a member of that. Our driving test compares very well with those in other countries. When we carry out exchange agreements, we evaluate the contents of how somebody in another country learns how to drive. We compare that against our standards and then we make a decision on whether we want to have in place a mutual exchange agreement with that country. Our standards are among some of the highest. There is a European standard but we have one of the highest in the world.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Where do we stand on road deaths?
Mr. Sam Waide:
On road deaths, this is a point that needs to be put into context in terms of the RSA and road safety in Ireland. Going back since the RSA was set up, annual fatalities in Ireland have dropped from more than 360 to, as the committee heard today, 174 last year. Every fatality is a travesty for a family losing someone, whether it is a road traffic collision or any other way. It is devastating.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry to push Mr. Waide. I am just really tight on time.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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With the best being top?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The RSA might come back to talk to us about that and what more can be done around road safety.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Between schools and all of that, I have anecdotal evidence that some of the programmes are very much focused on driving rather than road safety for pedestrians, like for van drivers. It would be good to hear what-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That is good to hear. I have less than a minute left. I thank Mr. Waide for that, and he might come back and talk to us.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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On the NCT - and I am lawyer by profession who has worked in procurement - I was interested in the fact that the RSA said it was legally not allowed to include penalties in its contracts. Where does that come from?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Is that because the RSA is a State entity?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Walsh might seek some clarity and send us a letter on that.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The other issue I wanted to ask about was the Deloitte supervision services contractor for the NCT.
Does that continue to be necessary? Could the RSA not use technology for that? Is it not included in the contract that the contractor would provide a report of its service levels? Why is a third party needed to interpret that?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
We have Deloitte, which manages the data that comes from us. We have the AA, which manages the quality of the checks. Both of those organisations support us because we are checking the national fleet. It is a very large undertaking. We also have reporting responsibilities to the EU and we need to ensure that data is correct. We are using technology where possible. We are continuously looking at how we could possibly use other technologies in the future to glean more information from that data.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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When the RSA returns to the committee, it would be good to hear about that. It strikes that me that Deloitte is reputable, but also very expensive.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I am going to give Senator Comyn, who is joining us today, two and a half minutes. I hope to let our other members in for one and a half minutes.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I will make the most of it. As a Louth-based Senator, I will start by warmly welcoming a second driving test centre for Louth, based in Drogheda. The witnesses are reluctant to name the location, but is the Southgate Shopping Centre, close to the NDLS centre, one of the favoured locations?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
I am aware of what was recently quoted in the newspaper by somebody else claiming to be aware of the location, but no one is aware of the location apart from myself, the facilities director and the people who are involved in it. We have not signed the contract yet, so it would not be proper for me to give the actual location. I assure the Senator that we have not shared that information with anybody.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Should that process be successful, what is the timeline for opening?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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If that falls through, as negotiations sometimes can, is an alternative ready to go?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I wholeheartedly support my colleague Senator Clifford-Lee on the hope that the site may become available in Swords in north County Dublin. Otherwise, all we will get is a backlog. We have our own backlog. Will more testers be recruited in the Drogheda area?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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That is excellent.
Moving on to the test, I have two children who have just torn up their novice stickers. The one thing they did when they got their tests was to head straight out onto a motorway and then drive home at night. Are there any plans to include a lesson on the motorway or at night-time? That was the first time either of them had ever done that.
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
The Senator heard me reference the assessment of the curriculum that we are currently undertaking. As part that, I am a passionate believer in looking at motorway driving in particular because, unfortunately, I do see a lot of bad habits, as I am sure we all do, on motorways. We need to educate people on how to drive on them. We are also looking at night driving. As part of a wider curriculum assessment, we are looking at all elements.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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There is a massive backlog. As happened in the past, has the RSA ever considered an amnesty?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I would advocate for an NCT centre, not only for north County Dublin, but for east Meath as well because Drogheda is under serious pressure.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I am going to allow everybody back in. I will allow for a minute or a minute and half each because other members could walk in. I am going to go in reverse order. I will go to the Vice-Chair, Deputy Moynihan, first, followed by Deputies Currie and Collins. I will then come in with some closing remarks.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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The witnesses have already clarified that the planned centre for south Dublin county will be in Sandyford. I missed when they said it would be up and running.
I have general questions on the overall state of driver behaviour. One thing we have seen anecdotally, and people report back us, is that they feel that, at times, driver behaviour is not where it is needs to be. What is the RSA's general view on that? In the context of driver testing and what we have been talking today, the purpose of driver testing is to encourage safe and good behaviour on our roads. Certainly, from the anecdotical evidence that I have heard from constituents, they feel that driving behaviour has disimproved in places. Are there any plans in the RSA to tackle that?
Mr. Sam Waide:
RSA studies and research in the past of couple years have confirmed a post-pandemic deterioration in driver behaviour. As we speak, there is an international road safety conference under way across the city, hosted by the Road Safety Authority. The Minister is launching the new drug driving campaign. Previously, we launched a drink driving campaign. The reason for this is that those behaviours - drinking and driving and taking drugs and driving - have deteriorated. Various committee members referred to a wider conversation on road safety later in the year. The Medical Bureau of Road Safety, An Garda Síochána, the NTA and TII are key agencies. We have engaged with young people in particular and that has helped to inform our messaging, communications and campaigns.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am looking at a parliamentary question that I submitted in May where I directly asked whether changing the loophole would require primary or secondary legislation. The reply was that the Department was working on secondary legislation to provide for changes and the RSA was finalising an implementation plan. As such, primary legislation is not required. Mr. Walsh mentioned significant changes that will then follow. Is it the case that a person will not be able to get another learner permit without taking a test after his or her second permit? Is it the case that a person can have no more than four successive permits before he or she has to start the learner driver process again?
I asked about the cut-off point for changing a test being ten days. Can that be lengthened to allow people more opportunities to change their tests? We might thereby see fewer no-shows.
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
On the ten days, I will take the Deputy's point away and have a look at it because it is a system issue.
Regarding how we deal with the multiple learner permits, we have to remember that somebody has gone through his or her 12 EDTs, which are uploaded into the system as a matter of fact for the record. If somebody has to go back and do those EDTs again, it means that we have to delete those records. Our systems were never designed to do that. As part of this, we have to expand our capabilities on the digital front to make allowances for what will be required. We also have to be mindful of the fact that, on the issuing of learner permits, people can apply for a test today and get issued with a new permit. We will now have to go and check the record to see if they have taken a test. There are new systems that have to be considered. These will give information to support the changes and stop somebody from going through system who should not be. Significant technological changes have to be made.
I apologise on the matter of legislation. I am not a legislator.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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Mine will be yes-no questions, if the witnesses do not mind, because we are tight on time. Will the RSA open a new centre in west Cork, seeing as Skibbereen is flooded? A waiting time of 11 months is outrageous and I cannot see it coming down in the near future. Is there a possibility of opening one in Bandon or somewhere?
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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On educating our children, it is important to get into our young peoples' minds. We have a motor school in Bantry, which is fantastic. Will the RSA work with the Department of education to make the theory test part of school exams to teach students because 99% of them are going to drive anyway? Is that something that will be investigated?
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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I appreciate that. Is there a possibility that the RSA will look into an American licensing agreement? It is a crazy situation. A man told me that he could drive in New York but could not drive in Goleen next week.
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
I will provide a quick answer to that because it is quite complex and has been brought up before.
The United States issues licences from multiple states. It is not the USA that releases the licences but the individual states. We do not have a mutual exchange agreement with any of those states at this moment in time.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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I spoke about insurance discs a while ago. The driving testers are saying "No" but they are legitimate.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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I would love the witnesses' email addresses if they do not mind. On overtime for driving testers, is the RSA looking at weekends, bank holidays, evenings or nights?
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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On driving instructors-----
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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Yes.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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People must drive at night at the same time.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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I will raise one more thing. Is the RSA looking at allowing driving instructors to be driving testers in different areas from those where they instruct?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I have some concluding questions and remarks. I have a request for information the witnesses might follow up with. I just want to understand the number of drivers who are on learner permits. Could that information be broken down by the number of years they have been on those permits? Are there drivers out there who have had more than ten learner permits?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Could I get that data broken down? I want to understand because, if we are to legislate for compulsory sitting of the test, a spike will occur. We need to do more outside of legislation to avoid having so many no-shows. We need better education. There are many cars turning up that are not in a roadworthy state or are without insurance or tax. To what extent should we look at the communication that goes out to individuals before they sit the test to make sure the car is-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps we need to do it a bit better. A lot of information has been provided to me by means of parliamentary questions regarding unaccompanied learner drivers associated with fatal collisions but I would like to know whether these learner drivers had multiple learner permits. Could that information be collated for me?
I thank the witnesses for coming today. They came at reasonably short notice because the committee was only constituted two or three weeks ago. We really appreciate that. As the chief executive stated in his opening remarks, there is a sense of anger and frustration out there. Let us be honest; there is a lack of confidence in the RSA. We have learned today that there is an action plan and that it is robust and resilient and that the RSA is very confident it will reduce waiting times to the target of ten weeks. Beyond September, there will be capacity to deliver 360,000 tests, plus or minus 5%, every year. That exceeds the anticipated or forecast demand for 2026 and 2027. I can safely say that we can be hopeful that the waiting times will reduce further beyond the ten weeks as we head in to the first or second quarter of 2026. We need to get this right. The contingency plans are in place and I welcome that. That is really important. I have a teenager myself. He is now 20 years of age. It is frustrating to wait for his test. His number one ambition when he got to 16 or 17 was to get that full driving licence. I am conscious that is the ambition of nearly every teenager. The waiting time after doing the compulsory 12 lessons is extraordinary. There is now agility in the system, which is really good. Testers can now move. That is positive. I could not get around the idea that we are to reduce waiting times in Clonmel by half when we only have one driving tester but that explains it. That is where the tester is headquartered. I know there are six testers in Waterford.
To be clear, is this information on the RSA website? With regard to the Minister's intervention on 14 or 15 May, can this information be publicly monitored?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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It is on the website so, next week or the week after, I can monitor Clonmel, Tipperary town, Nenagh, Thurles and all of the other test centres and see what is happening. Is that the case or is it just a national-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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While the average is 20 weeks, the waiting time at many test centres is more than 30 weeks. There is no plan to provide for live monitoring of centres in the future.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Even at a county level, there is an average of three or four testing centres in a county. In exceptional cases, there might be five or six. If the four or five individual centres in a county could be accumulated-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Following on from the Deputy, all politics is local. Are there any plans for a testing centre in Cahir, Carrick-on-Suir or Fethard?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I accept that. As the Vice-Chairperson has stayed until the end, is there anything he wants to say as a concluding remark? No. I am sure he will join me in thanking the witnesses for their presence. We will have a follow-up meeting. We are tight on time and only have five committee hearings between now and the summer recess but we will probably bring all stakeholders in to focus on road safety which is equally if not more important. Today, we were just focusing on driving tests and the NCT. I thank the witnesses very much. The meeting now stands adjourned until 9.30 a.m. on 18 June, when the committee will meet in private session.