Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 10 June 2025
Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration
Policing Matters: An Garda Síochána
2:00 am
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Fáilte roimh uilig go léir. I have no recorded apologies at this time. I remind members to turn off their mobile phones or switch them to flight mode.
The purpose of the meeting is to have an engagement with the Garda Commissioner, Drew Harris, on policing matters. While we intend the engagement to focus on policing generally, we have also asked the Commissioner and his team to focus on areas such as recruitment and retention, the divisional and operational model, community policing and road traffic policing. On behalf of the committee, I welcome our guests to the meeting. The Commissioner is joined by the deputy commissioners, Shawna Coxon and Justin Kelly. I thank all of them for agreeing so promptly to attend the meeting and to be the first public guests of this committee.
Before I invite the Commissioner to deliver his opening statement, I want to advise the witnesses of the following in relation to parliamentary privilege. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in a speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.
Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with such a direction.
Before I invite the Commissioner to introduce his team and to make his opening statement, I wish to record again, on behalf of this committee, our sympathies to all members of An Garda Síochána on the tragic death of Garda Kevin Flatley. That instance, and the subsequent incident where a member of An Garda Síochána was injured, showed the dangers and perils into which his members put their lives in service to our communities on a daily basis. Following the Commissioner's opening remarks, I will invite members to indicate to me to put questions. We will need to put some sort of time limit in place. I will have a better sense of that when I have an indication as to how many members are in attendance and how many have indicated to speak. I encourage all members to be as prompt and brief as they possibly can in order to ensure we have the fullest of deliberations. I invite Commissioner Harris to make his opening statement.
Mr. Drew Harris:
I thank the Chair and committee members for their invitation to meet and to address them this afternoon. While I was not aware that we are the first but I am pleased that we are. I note the committee’s interest in discussing recruitment and retention, the operating model, community policing and roads policing. I will give a brief update on these important issues and I look forward to answering questions thereafter.
As of 3 April, An Garda Síochána’s overall strength stood at 18,194. This figure includes 14,221 sworn gardaí, 304 members of the Garda Reserve and 3,669 Garda staff. Overall Garda numbers have increased by approximately 200 in the past year. The rate of resignations has slowed and the level of retirements has been at the expected rate. A small but encouraging number of gardaí who had resigned have since rejoined.
Efforts to address recruitment and retention within An Garda Síochána are ongoing. I believe those efforts are beginning to bear fruit. We continue to work with the Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration and with his Department’s training and capacity group to attract personnel into this fantastic organisation. Since we last met, there have been a number of positive developments. Following a proposal from me, the retirement age for gardaí has increased from 60 to 62. This has helped to retain a number of highly experienced gardaí. Meanwhile, the Government has increased the age limit for new recruits to 50. The Garda trainee allowance has increased to €354 per week. In our last recruitment campaign, 41% of applicants were over the age of 30. In addition, our recent trainee recruitment competition from earlier this year shows the attractiveness of a career in An Garda Síochána, with more than 6,700 applications received. A new recruitment campaign will launch in the autumn, which should provide a strong pipeline of potential recruits into 2026.
Last Friday, a further cohort of 120 gardaí passed out of the Garda College. Another intake, totalling 172, commenced yesterday, 20 of whom are from the 2025 campaign, which only closed in the middle of February. Currently, there are 477 trainees in the Garda College, with further intakes due in August and November of this year. We are committed to meeting the Government target of recruiting 5,000 gardaí over the next five years. We are working out a plan to do that, which also includes accommodation.
There has been much comment on the level of resignations. While we do not want to lose any garda, last year, a total of 140 gardaí out of 14,000 resigned, which is only just 1% of sworn gardaí. That figure is down by 29 compared with the previous year. An indicator of how people want to build a strong and lasting career in An Garda Síochána is the strong interest we have in promotion competitions at all Garda ranks. We are making progress, although we recognise there is more to do. We have repeatedly said that we need more sworn gardaí. We are working towards that.
In respect of the operating model, our structures and organisation had remained virtually unchanged since the formation of An Garda Síochána in 1922. This was not sustainable at a time of rapid, constant change for the country and for policing.
The operating model is based on best international practice, recommendations from the Commission on the Future of Policing, which carried out a huge consultation exercise within An Garda Síochána and further afield, the Garda Inspectorate, and our own modernisation and renewal programme. Its implementation was overseen by the Department of the Taoiseach as part of the Government's A Policing Service for Our Future programme. It is the biggest organisational change we have seen.
Everything done under the operating model has been done to enhance the service we provide to the public, and particularly to the most vulnerable in society. A good example is the investment we have made in our divisional protective service units. There are now units in every division. More than 300 specialist gardaí are assigned to divisional protective service units and these provide a professional and experienced service to vulnerable victims. These changes have delivered tangible results for domestic abuse victims. For example, in the past two years we have seen 67 prosecutions for non-fatal strangulation, 52 prosecutions for coercive control and, under relatively new legislation, 12 prosecutions for stalking have also been initiated. This great work has made a difference to victims and is a real, positive policing outcome of the operating model.
Under the old structure, the superintendent in the area would be responsible for crime investigation, engaging with local representatives and dealing with administrative, HR and financial matters. Under the operating model, superintendents are now dedicated to police work, be this community engagement, performance and accountability or crime. A detective superintendent oversees crime investigation in each of our 21 divisions on a national basis, while assistant principals were appointed in each division to oversee HR, finance, and administration. This has lifted significant burdens from superintendents to allow them, as I said, to focus on police work. In addition, the operating model has seen an increase in the number of sergeants and inspectors. This flows from our 2017 cultural audit that asked for more front-line supervisors and increases the quality of the policing service we deliver locally. The roll-out of the model was delayed by the Covid-19 pandemic but it has been successfully implemented in all 21 Garda divisions.
In respect of community policing, our ethos is one of being an unarmed, community-focused policing service and we have served the people of the country well for over 103 years with this ethos. We have high levels of satisfaction with the service we provide, sitting at 73%, with 75% of people saying we are community-focused and a trust rating of 89%. These are some of the highest figures among any of our European sister services. Also in the area of community policing, a new policy is being developed called community policing principles. This will standardise our response to community policing. These principles consist of community engagement; community partnerships; problem solving; crime prevention; law enforcement; and accountability. They are being adapted to meet the requirements of the new Policing, Security and Community Safety Act 2024. An Garda Síochána remains committed to its model of community policing and along with a wide range of partners has established many initiatives. These include: neighbourhood watch and community alert schemes; campus watch; the Garda schools programme; the Garda youth awards; and the Garda late night leagues. These provide important touch points between gardaí and local communities. I also wish to stress how well gardaí are known in their local areas, how active they are in their communities across Ireland and what a treasure this is for us as an organisation in terms of building trust.
As touched upon already, we note the recent death of our colleague, Garda Kevin Flatley, on 14 May. This serves as a very stark reminder of the risks our gardaí face while on duty, but also puts into sharp focus the dangers that exist on our roads today. In the past 12 months, a range of measures has been introduced by An Garda Síochána to enhance road safety and reduce road deaths and serious injuries. These include the 30 minutes of roads safety activity initiative, the introduction of safety cameras, the use of unmarked vehicles, including trucks and motorbikes, and access to the driver insurance database on a mobility device that every garda on patrol has.
We continue our enforcement of key life saver offences such as speeding, drink and drug-driving, not using a seat belt and mobile phone use. Detections in all these areas are up. Despite significant roads policing enforcement, as of yesterday there have been 72 road fatalities this year. While this is six fewer than in the same period last year, this reduction is no consolation for the bereaved families concerned.
There was a reduction in road deaths in 2024 compared with 2023, but every road death is one too many. I reiterate the importance of responsible driver behaviour. I again appeal to all road users in the interests of their safety and of those around them to slow down, to wear a safety belt, not to drive under the influence of an intoxicant and not to use their mobile phone while driving.
Finally, recent crime figures for the first quarter of 2025 show a year-on-year reduction in many of the key crimes such as burglary, robbery, crimes against the person and theft. We recognise, however, that we always have more to do, we are engaged in a process of constant improvement and we must meet the evolving demands of this society that we police. Thanks to the great work of gardaí across the country every day, however, Ireland is by any international measure a safe place. I thank the committee very much and I am very content to take questions.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat. Before I open the floor to members, the Commissioner's own tenure in his post is coming to an end. We wish him well in his retirement and in whatever he does next. Is it a concern to him that, to use the euphemism, people do not appear to be lining up to replace him? One media article I saw stated that none of the serving assistant commissioners, who have spent their entire policing careers in the Garda, have applied for the role. Does the Commissioner have any concerns around the numbers purportedly applying for the job?
Mr. Drew Harris:
I have no insight as to how many people have applied. I am not part of the selection process. I think in part that article might be somewhat speculative because in my experience - having run and been involved in other competitions around deputy commissioner and assistant commissioner posts - these competitions are treated with great confidentiality, as one would expect of a competition where personal information and careers are being pursued. I am not clear that is actually the stated interest in respect of the role of Commissioner. I can say it is a fantastic job and it has certainly been the privilege of my career to have had, in effect, seven years as Commissioner, which will be the total when I finish at the end of August. If asked about the job by individuals - and I have been asked - I have always said this is a fantastic opportunity and a fantastic privilege to undertake. I have always told people it is well worth doing despite the obvious difficulties and stresses encountered in such a role. It is hugely rewarding at the same time.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Am I to take it from the Commissioner's remarks that he is not involved in the selection process and will not be on the panel to select his replacement?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Commissioner aware of who will be on it?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am conscious many members wish to contribute, so I will only ask one question now. A key part of why we have the Commissioner here concerns recruitment and retention of members of An Garda Síochána. He mentioned a further cohort of gardaí passed out last week and that there were 6,700 applications. The information I saw indicated that about 120 people passed out last week.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The information this committee had received previously, however, was that each intake has a capacity of 200. This would suggest there is a gap of 80. When we consider there is apparently no issue in terms of applications being received, is there any particular reason there was that gap last week?
Mr. Drew Harris:
I might go back to that intake and we were very glad to receive 120 high-calibre individuals who attested last Friday. The fact there are 120 is nothing to do with the members of that cohort but about the speed with which we process applications. Those recruits joined their training on 23 September 2024 but that group had all applied from 2022 to 2023. None of them had applied in 2024, so this is illustrative of how long they were in the process.
We have sought to speed that up. All areas of the recruitment process have been, in effect, revamped and reassessed. We have done things like assessment days where we bring together the physical competence test, the drugs test and the medical test and also talk to the vetting unit. We are trying to speed things up all the time. The significance of the intake on Monday, just yesterday, is that 20 individuals from the 2025 competition were in that class already. The numbers are looking well for the August intake because a number of people could not join in June due to commitments over the summer and will come to us in August. At the same time, we are working quickly through the February 2025 competition to make sure we have a good intake.
The second part of that relates to our capacity. We need to build our capacity to 250 per class. We are working with the OPW around the physical works needed to achieve that. Having 250 people per class will allow 1,000 trainees to come into the college. There is huge interest in joining An Garda Síochána. We need to ensure that, in a competitive environment, we are working through these processes quickly. While there are a number of hurdles an individual must clear, between the interview, the physical assessment, the medical assessment and vetting, as quickly as we can do those, the more flow-through we will have.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Where is the blockage? The figures I have show that when the Commissioner came on board, there were around 13,900 gardaí. We are now at 14,200, which is significantly less than at the beginning of Covid. The Commissioner is acknowledging essentially that there is a problem with the process from when someone joins to him or her becoming formalised as a garda. Whose fault is it that we have those types of delays?
Mr. Drew Harris:
Rather than attributing blame, this is our process. It was our process to examine and fix and that is what we have done. Instead of people passing one stage and then being passed onto the next stage, in effect, once we receive the names of individuals who have passed the interview process, we work through those as quickly as possible. We identify those who can come to the next class intake and we work them through the physical competence, the vetting, the medical assessment and the drugs testing. These are the four elements for which we are directly responsible. We want to make sure we move through them quickly and simultaneously, rather than waiting for one stage to finish for another to start. There are some dedicated people who waited almost two years before they entered the Garda Training College to graduate then in June 2025. While we are glad to see them, we ourselves have identified where we need to do better and have made the revisions already.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Commissioner for that response. I ask members to try to limit their interactions to under seven minutes in order that we can allow a second round of questions, if necessary. Deputy Gannon will speak first, followed by Senator Gallagher and then Deputy Kelly. I will take the other speakers thereafter.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Commissioner. I join others in expressing solidarity and sadness on the loss of his colleague, Garda Kevin Flatley. I was grateful that the Commissioner’s statement arrived on Saturday. I felt it was early. While it gave us a lot of time to prepare for today’s meeting, going through its six pages, I could not help but feel there was a lot missing. There is no reference to far-right mobilisation, organised intimidation or drugs gangs who are making parts of this city unpoliceable. My questions will be framed around those areas. Why were these areas omitted? Why was there no reference to the far-right intimidation which is happening outside libraries, outside buildings where children are living and outside our Parliament? Is this not a priority?
Mr. Drew Harris:
These matters are of concern, obviously. We concentrated on the four areas which were highlighted in the invitation to the meeting. I was conscious that I would have limited time with my opening statement. If I was to open out all of those areas, it would be an extremely long opening statement. My deputies and I are experienced in all of these areas and are happy to take any particular questions.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Commissioner. The Policing Authority found that An Garda Síochána had no structural intelligence system to anticipate far-right protests outside of Dublin. Officers were relying on ad hoc social media monitoring. How was that allowed to continue into 2023 and 2024? To be honest, it looks like it is still continuing today.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I thank Deputy Gannon for the question. We have made considerable advances around our online activity and the groups he has spoken about. The particular group we are interested in targeting is people who are involved in violent political extremism, in whatever form that takes. We have made considerable investment in ICT to help us around online activity. We do that in two different ways. While we will obviously talk about the operating model later, one of the things we have done is we have uplifted the abilities of our regional people in this regard. If there is a protest in Cork, Galway or wherever else, we have given them the technology and training to look at that activity ahead of what we anticipate to be problematic areas. Centrally, we have our Garda national security intelligence section. It will focus, both on a regional and national basis, on those groups we are more interested in, which are working on a national level, some of which have international contacts. To answer the Deputy’s specific question, the far right is of huge concern to us. We have dedicated officers in the special detective unit and the counterterrorism operational unit who solely focus on this area.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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There still appears to be a reluctance among some members of An Garda Síochána to intervene earlier in violent protests. They seem to fear escalation or disciplinary fallout. Do gardaí have the tools and training to act assertively without waiting for reinforcements or being left to fail? In the context of the failures in 2023, will the Commissioner give an example of something that has been rectified and proven to have been done differently in the past couple of months arising from the protests we have been seeing in Coolock and elsewhere?
Mr. Drew Harris:
Any public order situation we are involved in is subject to a debrief for learning. I point to the training we have for public order members. There has also been an uplift in equipment, particularly in the aftermath of the riots on 23 November 2023. We have purchased two water cannons and increased the strength of the incapacitant spray, the cannister incapacitant spray issued to public order members in particular. We have introduced command training for those members at chief superintendent rank. That will cascade down through the organisation to superintendents. Inspectors are already trained as public order unit commanders. There has been a huge emphasis on training around public order and interventions. One of the fortunate things for us is that the proof of concept for body-worn cameras is partly based in north-central and south-central Dublin. A lot of this protest activity, therefore, is being caught evidentially on body-worn cameras. That has helped both to diffuse situations and to bring prosecutions.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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While I am conscious there were arrests and ultimately sentences arising from the events of 23 November 2023, they seem to be at the lower end of the scale. They were the people who engaged in the violence. The people who instigated the violence through online platforms and large social media platforms, however, some of whom are now public figures, seem to have got away scot-free. Going forward, is An Garda Síochána monitoring the people who are instigating these protests?
Mr. Drew Harris:
There have been extensive investigations in respect of those events and other serious public order events. Obviously, part of that is to follow through on social media posts. That is another means of obtaining evidence. It is always an investigative strand to follow through on those individuals who may have committed offences which amount to an incitement-type offence.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I hoe we will see some outcome of that in the future. I turn to drug-related intimidation, which is destroying our communities.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Deputy Gannon to keep it to one minute. I will come back to him in the second round.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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In my community, there are at least three public parks. While I do not know whether the canal walkways are becoming unpoliceable, they certainly seem to be unpoliced. Is there some form of policy of containment in place in the city centre where people engaged in this behaviour are being redirected from the commercial city centre and into our residential areas? It certainly feels like that at the moment. There are parts of the city which just do not seem to be policed.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
We have started with our high-visibility patrols, which the Deputy will have heard about. That has started in the downtown core.
I have not heard of any issues with respect to displacement. We certainly have patrols throughout the city from a community engagement standpoint.
With respect to drug-related intimidation, many of these cases are not reported. I want to signal that the drug-related intimidation and violence, DRIVE, programme has just been released. Families have an opportunity to go through policing and can come to us if need be. Oftentimes they are using other methods, however, and the programme is a great way for them to get help and support. Those two pieces are in place along with front-line patrols.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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In regard to the parks, specifically Mountjoy Square, Liberty Park and the Diamond Park, residents contact me every day and I have been contacting An Garda Síochána because they genuinely seem to be in fear. There does not seem to be any form of intervention there. I am surprised Dr. Coxon has not heard about this because it is constantly being referenced through the various committees at local level and in the Oireachtas.
Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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The Commissioner and deputy commissioner are very welcome. I join my colleague, Deputy Gannon, in passing on condolences on the death of Kevin Flatley, the 90th member of An Garda Síochána to lose their life in the course of duty. It goes to show what a perilous and dangerous job it is. There are very few occupations where people get up in the morning, put on their clothes and may never return home. For that we are deeply grateful for the work An Garda Síochána does. I would be grateful if the Commissioner would pass that on to his members.
I thank the Commissioner for his service and wish him well in his retirement, as the Cathaoirleach did. The Commissioner made reference to the operating model. The county models, with the exception of counties Cavan, Monaghan, Roscommon, Louth, Mayo and Longford, have been changed. In relation to Cavan, Monaghan and Louth, are there any plans to review the position? I am aware of concerns about a lack of personnel, particularly in places in Cavan and Monaghan. Community policing has been a buzzword for a long number of years and we all like to see members on patrol in the streets of our towns. I cannot remember the last time I saw a member of the Garda on patrol in Monaghan town or Cavan town. I would happily invite all three witnesses down to Cavan and Monaghan for a visit some day. I will happily put up a coffee or pint for all three of them for each member they spot on patrol in any one of the towns of both counties. I do not think it would be too sore a day on me financially, I am disappointed to say. That invite is there and I am sure the Cathaoirleach would join us on that particular day. It is a serious issue. There are concerns locally about the lack of Garda visibility. Are there any plans to review the three-county model as it pertains to Louth, Cavan and Monaghan?
Mr. Drew Harris:
There are no plans at the moment. At the same time, the structure that was put in place, as I have said internally, was not handed down to us on a tablet of stone. It is our structure and it is one for us make work. For every division we add, we are taking people from the front line because the additional chief superintendent, superintendents, inspectors and sergeants all come from the Garda ranks. As we are an organisation which draws the vast majority of promotions from within, to create more structures is to create management on-costs. There is a balance between what the structure set out to achieve and the operational delivery. One of the strong aspects of the divisional model as it is at the moment is the divisions were to be autonomous units, that is, sufficient to deal with the great majority of policing challenges they might face. That includes the protective services. When they were formed one of the big issues was insurance fraud. That has dissipated through detection of no insurance. In the meantime, general fraud has increased, including cyberfraud.
They were to be given resources so that they could have some of that specialisation locally - likewise, cybercrime was to be a regional specialisation - and every division, unlike before, would have a specialist detective superintendent to oversee crime. There are many operational benefits but I cannot replicate that out 28 times into the old model. It is just too expensive and it draws up too many resources. All of this is a compromise.
The other issue about having these service delivery units is that autonomy then comes with the ability to make decisions. Given the fast pace of policing, decisions have to be made locally, particularly in crisis or difficult situations whereas our old model was a very hierarchical model. Things were referred up the line constantly and that led to slower decision-making and often opportunities were lost. There is a lot around the organisational design, which is strong. I recognise people's concern in respect of the remaining divisions and their size, but all of that was balanced throughout July and August 2023. Changes were made and there was some further investment. At the same time, one has to step forward carefully because structures cost personnel, both Garda members and Garda staff.
Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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If I take it down to basic levels, the sight of a Garda member on patrol, regardless of what the operating model is called, is one that most people strive for and the sense of security it gives people is priceless. We should never lose contact with that. My concern is that we seem to be reactive rather than proactive. In our geographical area, Drogheda and Dundalk are more high-incident areas than Cavan and Monaghan are. As a result, Cavan and Monaghan suffer when an incident occurs. That is why we do not see that visible presence. What are the criteria? Is the door open, perhaps in the future, to review that particular model for those counties? What needs to happen for the model to be reviewed?
Mr. Drew Harris:
What happened in 2023 has also happened in other reviews. We have conducted a review of the business service or divisional office model. As we are going through this, we have been doing a self-evaluation, as you would with any major change. In large part, that is actually listening to the feedback that we receive from both the regional assistant commissioners, chief superintendents and superintendents involved as well as the staff associations. There has been constant consultation and engagement with the associations and the unions as we have developed this. If it can be clearly demonstrated that there is a better way of doing this, and that includes a more efficient way of doing it, all of that is always open for discussion. As I say, this is not stipulated to us in legislation. This is how we decide to structure our work. We want to find the way which is most efficient and effective around service delivery. We should not create structures for the comfort of having a structure if it is just adding superstructure, bureaucracy and layers. Structures are in place and management structures are there for the purpose of service delivery.
In terms of the operating model, we increased the number of sergeants by 200 but we significantly increased the number of inspectors. The divisions got over 100 additional inspectors to help to service needs. There is far more presence of rank to deal with issues and to help gardaí in their day-to-day duties and provide them with support and guidance.
There is a lot there but, as I say, obviously we want the structures to settle. We have now had all of that in place since May and it is within our guidance that we would do a further evaluation in May of next year. That will happen.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I concur in respect of the divisional model. There is no logical way that you could put urban Dundalk in the same policing framework as rural Belturbet or other parts of Cavan and Monaghan.
I concur with that.
The purpose of the operating model has been described as being intended to enhance the service the Garda provide to the public. As I am sure the Commissioner is aware, if we had virtually any other rank than the witnesses before us, they would tell us that is not their experience and it does not seem to be the experience that is relayed to us from the public. All of the correspondence we received on the operating model indicates that the connection between the guards and communities has been weakened. We could give many anecdotes but the most recent example I received today relates to a man who had a personal possession stolen in Laytown. He went to Laytown Garda station, which was closed. He then went to the next nearest Garda station in Duleek and it was closed. He had to go to Ashbourne, which is 30 miles away, to make a complaint. I understand that an email is then sent to Duleek. Such examples are not efficient and do not inspire confidence in members of the public in the new model.
Mr. Drew Harris:
The model we had was not working. We had inconsistent service delivery across the country. Superintendents were increasingly drawn into pretty complex administrative processes, as human resources, finances and other administration have got more and more complex. What we have done is to free up superintendents in particular. Chief superintendents are running the whole thing, so they do have a responsibility for the administrative function as well. We freed them up. We increased the number of inspectors and sergeants. In 2018 and 2019, when I was touring around the country in the late evening and the small hours of the morning, one would not find an inspector on duty. That was prevalent throughout the country. It was rare to find an inspector on duty. We did not have the roll-out of the DPSUs. The cybercrime assistance was based in Dublin. We had 96 administrative units headed by a superintendent who ran the district. There was a huge amount of wastage and bureaucracy in that. This was an effort to streamline it. A lot of the positives in the current operating model are assumed to be baked in. There are things people are not happy with. We had expected to easily have been at 15,200 members by now with the operating model, but Covid and then our recruitment processes thereafter intervened and that ambition was not realised. But it will be realised in full. The recruitment is mandated by the Government and we have support for it.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I might let the Commissioner come back to that. I call Deputy Kelly. He will be followed by Senator Ruane.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I offer my condolences to Garda Flatley's family. I also take this opportunity to thank all the ordinary members of the force across the country for their work. I was at the GRA conference not so long ago so I want to acknowledge that.
I have some fairly direct questions for the Commissioner and his deputies. I would appreciate short answers purely because of the clock. I would also appreciate it if the Chair could help me in that regard.
I am holding a gun holster similar to that worn by Garda Horkan when he tragically lost his life on 17 June 2020. The witnesses are well aware that I have raised these holsters previously in the Dáil on a number of occasions, in particular with the Minister. I wish to get a direct answer to a question. We know that prior to Garda Horkan being killed by Stephen Silver with his own gun, there was an incident in front of the Israeli ambassador's residence. I take it the witnesses are aware of this situation in which a garda's gun was discharged. The incident was investigated by the GNTB. There was a pathway for investigating it, including the holster. Although the garda was wearing a different holster, it was made by the same company. I have a selection of all the holsters.
In that scenario, outside the Israeli ambassador's residence, where this issue occurred with the gun and holster, the GNTB came in and followed the pathway for the investigation. However, that is not what happened in the case of Garda Horkan where a different pathway was followed. The case was investigated by a chief superintendent and a sergeant. Why was this pathway used, and why was it different to the pathway used to investigate the holster incident outside the Israeli ambassador's residence a week earlier?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I remind the Deputy about mentioning the names of people who are not Members of the House.
Mr. Drew Harris:
I am very much aware of both incidents. I am content with the quality of the investigation that was conducted in respect of the murder of Colm Horkan, in particular the analysis in respect of the holster. In respect of the previous incident, which was only two or three weeks earlier-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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That is fair enough. The Commissioner says he is satisfied with the investigation carried out by the individuals on the holster in the case of Garda Horkan, RIP. I accept that. Were those individuals qualified to do that investigation up to ISO-IEC 17025 accreditation and standards?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Is Mr. Harris happy they were qualified to the required level?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Evan Fitzgerald died in Carlow Shopping Centre on Sunday, 1 June. As we all know, unfortunately, his passing was a very tragic situation. The Garda said he was a young man with some health issues. He was on bail awaiting a court case involving charges for firearm offences. He has now passed and the case has obviously passed with him. What was the provenance of the guns bought off the dark web by the deceased young man? Where did they come from? Was this a controlled delivery of guns and ammunition? Did undercover gardaí engage face-to-face with this young man prior to the delivery of guns and ammunition? Were any other strategies considered in this scenario given the profile of the young man and the fact that he had been met by gardaí?
Mr. Drew Harris:
There are two other individuals still before the courts in respect of the incident to which the Deputy refers. Again, it is very difficult for me to comment on a specific incident.
Second, I am aware that the Mail on Sunday published allegations on 18 May, which I then referred to Fiosrú. It has since examined the investigation file that was submitted by the Garda National Drugs and Organised Crime Bureau to the DPP, and it responded on 6 June that it has no further action that it wishes to take in pursuance of the Act.
Controlled delivery is a very sensitive police methodology. We use it for both organised crime and terrorist offences.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I accept that. I am aware of the response from Fiosrú. I find it amazing. It is the quickest thing that has ever been turned around by Fiosrú or its predecessors. There are investigations ongoing on a range of matters for five, six and seven years. It is amazing that something can be turned around. I would love to see what was referred to Fiosrú in terms of how specific or generic it was. Is that possible?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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That would be great.
Is the Commissioner in a position to say whether gardaí engaged with this individual prior to this controlled delivery that was organised by An Garda Síochána in respect of these guns and ammunition? Is he able to answer in relation to the provenance of the guns?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Can I move onto another issue?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Very briefly, please.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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This is one that everybody is well aware of. It was quite a topic. There was outrage last year in respect of a garda being arrested – in fairness, the Commissioner came out and spoke about it subsequently – in relation to a bike being stored at a midlands police station, which was given to a bachelor farmer. He was arrested on 4 June and he gave it on 3 May. The DPP directed no charges quickly, and there was then a follow-up investigation that went on for a number of years. The National Bureau of Criminal Investigation called to the garda’s house to arrest him, and he told them that the bike was at the farmer’s house. The farmer was not present at the house, so he could not consent to anyone entering the property. How was the bike seized? The item was used in an exhibit in the DPP file, where no prosecution happened, and in the board of inquiry, which found that the garda did nothing wrong. What warrant was used to enter the property?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The Commissioner will respond in writing whether there was a warrant used in high-profile case that the whole country was talking about. I thought he would probably know.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I understand that, but the whole country was talking about this. It was on every news station and in every paper. Surely, the Commissioner would have looked at it because it had a confidence issue in respect of An Garda Síochána at the time, it is fair to say, because it seemed absolutely ridiculous. Surely, everything that was done as part of that process was done in the correct manner. Surely, as Commissioner, or as deputy commissioners, the witnesses would have made sure that was the case.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, the Commissioner answered twice and has indicated that he will correspond with the committee.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I thank the Commissioner for the presentation. I have two subjects, and if I do not get to the second one, I will wait and come back in. One of them is more of a broad question around culture and how we move forward. Many other people look for more police on the street. I am constantly trying to think about how we have fewer police on the street and the need for fewer police on the street. Obviously, policing responses are not the whole of the story with regard to prevention and core drivers. If we keep siloing it into that response, I do not think we will reduce violence or increase safety in real time, in real terms, in communities and the likes of communities I grew up in.
Over the past couple of years I have undertaken a large body of work around the different responses to violence intervention around the world – in Scotland, Denmark, Sweden and the United States. I visited the United States and looked at some of their responses that are built around focused deterrence, which relies on collaboration with the police. What has come up in that, and I will get to a second point from this, is we know that it is always a small percentage of people causing the most harm and violence within communities. The statistics and evidence show that. Often, the first experience of violence of that small percentage of people was not as a perpetrator but as a victim, whether than be growing up, state violence, within the community, within the home and stuff like that. A huge body of the work I did was working with people who are currently, or were in the past, closest to cycles of violence. When I worked with them to develop the concept of potentially having conversations on focused deterrence to reduce violence, in the case of a number of them, although they are willing and maybe ready in some circles to look at the perpetration of the violence they have caused or inflicted, their concerns around engagement with An Garda Síochána is that historically, their relationship with the Garda has been negative.
Violence was inflicted on them by An Garda Síochána in the past. When we think about trust and I think the Commissioner mentioned constant improvement, for me to be able to move forward and for us to grow trust and constant improvement, there must be an acknowledgement of the historical harms that have been caused through the actions of An Garda Síochána within particular communities. I confidently speak about that because I was somebody who was on the receiving end of Garda violence growing up. I use myself only as an example because it cannot be disputed because I know what my experiences are, what we endured and what I witnessed. From a cultural perspective in terms of new leadership within An Garda Síochána, if we are to move forward, is there something about us having to genuinely look back also to be able to have some of that restorative work between communities and between the small percentage of people who are inflicting violence? That small percentage of people exists within professions too. I am sure it is only a small percentage of people within the police force too. How do we move forward and do that piece of work?
Second, there are some historical cases. One of them is going into its 20th year this year. Terence Wheelock’s family continues to ask for an independent inquiry. When we look at historical cases where there are question marks and we potentially need to do inquiries to show that the Garda is transparent, to build that trust to be able to move forward and to be able to give families of the past who have questions about how their loved ones are treated and, in some cases, died after being in custody, what role does that play, with inquiry and transparency, into what happened in cases like that, so we can move forward and build better systems, better policing and better relationships?
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
The Senator’s questions are very important. I would point to the new Policing, Security and Community Safety Act because it was built around the idea of a whole-of-government approach to be proactive in these spaces.
On specific programmes, I could spend half a day talking about that. If the Senator wants to connect afterwards and talk about things she would like to see specifically, I would be happy to share that. It is important to acknowledge that we know that trauma informs a lot of how people wind up in the system, and that is a cycle. It is a small group of people who tend to then create that trauma for others, and it becomes a cycle unto itself.
We also know, even from our own work around our public attitudes survey, as much as we look at the 89% that the Commissioner mentioned today, that is a generic statistic. When we look at youth, the Traveller community, etc., we know that is a different experience and that number would not look like that. It is important to acknowledge that.
With the new Act, there are a number of new structures coming into place that will work toward a whole-of-government approach. I mentioned the DRIVE programme earlier – that is just one. A health-led approach in a number of different areas will be coming to the fore. I agree with the Senator. It is a very important conversation and it needs to lead to tangible work.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I have had some off-the-record conversations with retired sergeants and some current police who have spoken about the past and when they started out, especially, being drawn in to using violence unnecessarily, especially in relation to working-class men. Can we truly move forward if we do not also create the space to speak about that? If I am asking communities to speak about the harm they have done, do we also need to expect the same of the institutions that have also contributed to that harm in the other direction? My concern is that while the safety programmes and new legislation looks well, is underpinned by evidence and has potential, if the transparency and justice piece between the existing conflict does not ever get unearthed, nobody will trust that process in that other small percentage of people who do not have the same trust, whether that be the Traveller community, young working-class men or others. Without speaking to any particular case, does Dr. Coxon envision a moment where we can take ownership of the Garda violence that has happened in particular communities?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the witnesses to keep their responses as brief as possible.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will let the Senator back in later. Deputy Brabazon is next, followed by Senator Kelleher.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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Like other members of the committee, I pass on my condolences regarding Garda Kevin Flatley's untimely passing in tragic circumstances.
I have read the Commissioner's statement, which is really positive. From my experience as a city councillor for 21 years and now as a newly elected Deputy, I know of a number of issues where there is a gap between what the Commissioner is saying and the experience on the ground. One of the things I will raise with the witnesses is the compulsory use of the 999 number for reporting incidents. In that regard, the experience on the ground is not a positive one. People are very reluctant to ring 999 because they feel it is counterintuitive. The 999 number has always been an emergency one and not necessarily to report a quality-of-life issue, such as antisocial behaviour. The experience has been that those who use 999 do not get the response they require.
I had an example at the weekend where a woman rang 999 to report a missing child and there was no feedback at all. I had another case where a window was broken in one of the local communities I represent. The person rang 999 because he had previously been advised by me that this was the course of action to take. There was no response and no gardaí showed up. When he followed it up at the local garda station he learned it had not received any information regarding the incident. There was a complete breakdown in that respect.
I personally witnessed a number of incidents in another village in the constituency I represent. I had cause to ring 999 last week because I witnessed an incident where a knife was taken out beside a very elderly man and it caused serious upset for the gentleman. It was the same individual who had shown up again. When I rang 999 I gave provided my details - my name and date of birth - as requested and, again, no one showed up and there was no follow-up or feedback. Does the Commissioner believe the 999 system is working? It does not seem to be working on the ground.
Mr. Drew Harris:
I will hand over to Dr. Coxon in a moment. We have received a lot of feedback since the introduction of the new GardaSAFE and centralised control rooms. That feedback is not dissimilar to what the Deputy has outlined. There is a review under way to reassess the connection with the community. This was done with the best of intentions in order to have, in effect, a record of any exchanges with the public over the phone. That was seen as being important. I ask Dr. Coxon to outline the ongoing work.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
We are at the year mark with respect to the implementation of the system. The benefit of the system is it records every call. If the Deputy tells me where and when this happened, I can track it and see what happened. He should have received follow-up and that applies to all the instances he described.
We are in the process of doing a policy review, by which I mean not just policy but policy and processes, to see whether there may be an issue. I welcome this feedback. This is a large-scale change for the organisation. The problem we had before, as the Commissioner mentioned, is that we had instances of people saying they were not getting a response but we could not track it or make a determination. We had key calls we could not follow up on because there was no record of them. The system is designed to do the opposite of that. The Deputy is giving me this feedback today and, as I said, that should not be happening. We can look into it and see what happened. If he does not mind, I would like to speak with the Deputy after the meeting to get the specifics and detail. I will endeavour to look into it, not only to see if this was a specific issue but if it is endemic or something broader. We are doing the review right now and we need to identify where there are issues.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome that opportunity.
I will move on to the issue of scramblers, scooters, e-bikes, etc. As I am sure the Commissioner is aware, these vehicles are being used and employed by criminal gangs to have underage people mule drugs around the city. When I raised the issue at my local joint policing committee while I was on Dublin City Council, the line we were given by senior gardaí was that there was a policy of not chasing these people or catching up to them. This effectively meant we had a group of untouchables. The Commissioner made a public statement in recent months that there was no such policy and it was possible for members of An Garda Síochána to chase. The experience on the ground does not seem to back that up, certainly not in the area I represent which I accept does not give the national view. This is a huge problem. We really cannot have untouchables. If these people are not being pursued, tracked down and investigated, we are allowing them to be exactly that - untouchable.
Mr. Drew Harris:
I agree wholeheartedly with the Deputy. Policy has been written to allow for both pursuit and the use of vehicle immobilisation devices, otherwise known as stingers, to puncture tires. Hitherto, there had been policies in place up until 12 months ago where these tactics were not to be used against two-wheeled vehicles. Given the prevalence of the use of Surron-type electric bikes by individuals engaging in antisocial behaviour and the movement of drugs, however, this is not a sustainable position.
We are also looking into experience in jurisdictions regarding the pursuit of motorbikes. We will have a new helicopter with us very shortly. This is a far safer approach because you have a planned operation to pursue motorbikes. I do not have the details with me but there have been huge efforts, particularly in the Dublin metropolitan region but also elsewhere, to seize these types of bikes and vehicles. If I have the opportunity to supply such information to the committee, it will give the scale of what has been done regarding enforcement.
We have also invested in the examination of scooters because some can do far in excess of the speed they are allowed to do. We have also issued instructions to the organisation regarding some electric bikes that do not have peddles and are, in effect, mechanically propelled vehicles which require insurance and registration. We can seize such vehicles where they are not insured.
We have an array of powers and we recognise the dangers of these vehicles, the antisocial behaviour and their involvement in crime. It is not an area we want to leave unpoliced; we cannot do that.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Commissioner and Deputy Brabazon. Before I move on, on a related matter, there were a number of reports that some regions do not have a sufficient number of trained or adequately trained gardaí who could engage in the high-speed pursuit of a vehicle. Is the Commissioner satisfied this issue has been resolved?
Mr. Drew Harris:
There is more training that needs to be done in respect of pre-planned pursuit. If there is a spontaneous pursuit, the obligation on the garda member is to report what is happening to control. A risk assessment is then conducted by qualified individuals in the control room. There is no blanket policy against pursuit. What we have put in place is a policy to empower and enable but there is specific training required-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In real time, how long does it take to do the analysis required to give clearance to gardaí to pursue?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Have there been many instances where Garda members were told to essentially stop the chase?
Mr. Drew Harris:
Sometimes the risks taken by pursuing a vehicle are such that in effect we have to draw back because we see a situation where an individual is almost bound to crash. It is better to draw back and search for the individual or car. The important aspect for us is the helicopter that is coming on line and being able to respond quickly to such incidents.
Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus cuirim fáilte roimh an gCoimisinéir Harris agus leas-choimisinéirí Shawna Coxon agus Justin Kellly. Chomh maith leis na baill eile I convey my condolences to the family of Garda Kevin Flatley and the wider Garda Síochána family on his passing, which was a huge tragedy for our State.
I will revert to the issue of recruitment and retention and numbers because in the area I represent it is all about numbers. That is no different from many other parts of the country. I come from the Cork North-Central constituency where we have seen a reconfiguration of services and the merging of services in areas of high population such as Ballincollig and Bishopstown, and Douglas and Carrigaline. There is a feeling locally that this is a dilution of Garda resources and that each area of high population merits having its own patrol unit.
Community policing has worked successfully in the communities I represent. I cannot advocate strongly enough for it. It has been hugely successful in introducing people in the community to members of An Garda Síochána through street leagues, our monthly neighbourhood watch meetings and the interaction and constant toing and froing between community gardaí and Garda services more generally and community organisations such as family resource centres and families. The gardaí have their fingers on the pulse when it comes to such issues as diverting young people from criminal activity by having knowledge of communities. There is a feeling with the reconfiguration of services that there is a risk of that being diluted and I am concerned about that. That is the first issue I would like to get some feedback on.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
As the Commissioner mentioned in respect of the operating model, we went live this year, I assume, in the Senator's area. There is a dedicated community engagement superintendent who oversees the community engagement. From a community policing perspective, we should get not only the same service, but a better one. If there is a specific issue, I would be happy to take that away.
One of the larger issues - and I am glad the Senator brought it up - is that when we talk about the operating model, two things are happening at once. This is where we are seeing the outcomes that have been raised, not only by him, but by other members. We expected to be at 15,000 gardaí and we are at approximately 14,200 right now. This has led to a change overall. However, the merging of services should not be happening in community engagement. That should remain as is.
Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
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On that point, I had intended to mention this towards the end, but Dr. Coxon raised the issue of target numbers, the difficulty of achieving the targets and the issues around recruitment and retention. Is it the case that cuts have been applied to overtime? That has certainly been felt in Cork where members are encouraged to work no more than 40 hours of overtime in a four-week period. Is that a wise policy at a time when we might be struggling with recruitment and trying to hit target numbers?
Mr. Drew Harris:
Overtime in the end is not the wisest policy to follow as we are better off having numbers of gardaí. We had a budget this year, which was an increase on last year, of €144 million. That is a significant budget, but there is an obligation on the organisation to live within that budget of public money.
There are diminishing returns from overtime. One has to think of the welfare of members who are already working a 40-hour week. Overtime is on top of that and some can then work excessive hours which leads to health and safety issues. There are no cuts. There is a requirement to live within the budget we have been provided with.
Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
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I will go back to Cork, but I know it is not an issue that is unique to Cork as Senator Gallagher and others mentioned issues with numbers and seeing gardaí on the beat. Certainly in the four months I have spent as a Member of the Oireachtas in Dublin, it is abundantly clear to me that seeing gardaí on patrol in Dublin is much more common. There are concerns in Cork about the safety of the city centre and that is based on the lack of visible Garda presence in the city centre. That needs to be addressed because there seems to be a disproportionate allocation of Garda resources to Dublin. In the past, after passing out gardaí were sent to Dublin for a probationary period of two or three years before being transferred elsewhere. That does not seem to be happening as frequently.
There is one issue specific to Cork. We are fortunate enough to have a Cork Taoiseach at the moment. The additional Garda resources relating to security of senior political figures come out of the jurisdiction in which that person resides. Surely that is nonsensical because it is an additional drain on resources in Cork. Would it not make more sense for those additional resources to come from a central unit rather than being taken locally?
Mr. Drew Harris:
The Senator raised a point on the visibility of policing in Dublin city centre. That was in response to a specific operation we put in place to answer public concerns about the visibility of An Garda Síochána in our capital. However, we recognise that other cities will wish to make similar applications for personnel. The happy position I am in, though I do not want to create a hostage to fortune for the individual who succeeds me, is that we are a growing organisation and we can make commitments around visibility in the future. Our recruitment is on a strong basis now and as we recruit we will deploy.
The issue of the Dublin metropolitan region, DMR, is that it often gets trainee or probationary gardaí to allow consequentials to happen. That is often the specialties but it is also to allow other transfers, often to such places as Cork, as the Senator can imagine, and other divisions. There is a constant churn of people in an organisation of 14,300. That is ongoing, but we are in the positive position of being financially supported to grow the organisation and we are working our way through how that can happen and how we can meet the Government requirements.
Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Commissioner and deputy commissioners to this important meeting. I avail of this opportunity to call on the Commissioner and his colleagues in An Garda Síochána to acquire, train and maintain cadaver dogs to assist in locating human remains and to form part of the Garda dog unit. We had two recent cases, one in my county, that of Michael Gaine. I attended Mike's funeral on Saturday. Part of his remains were found in a slurry tank. We also had the Tina Satchwell murder in Cork whose remains were found in her home in Youghal under the stairs after six years. Surely, we have to learn from the mistakes of the past. I am aware that the usefulness of these dogs is approximately three years and that they come with a cost. However, there are massive gains to be made. I have no doubt that if we had the use of such dogs those murders and many others would have been resolved some time ago.
The prolonged pain, suffering and grieving by relatives and friends, and the entire community in the case in Kenmare that I am familiar with, would have been significantly eased with the introduction or the availability of these dogs. That is a no-brainer. The longer these inquiries and searches go on, the more malicious the rumours that circulate in the community are without any consideration being given to the immediate family and close friends. This could also be eased and addressed in a small way with the introduction of these dogs.
In regard to Mike Gaine, we should have known from previous cases that there should have been a proper search of the slurry tanks. The importance of properly searching them has been highlighted. In this case, it seems that did not happen. Why is there a review going on at a time there is an active murder inquiry? Is that unusual? Has it happened previously? It is news to me.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We will give the Commissioner time to answer.
Mr. Drew Harris:
In respect of cadaver dogs, we did have one on up until 2012, but we found that its skills faded because it was not used sufficiently and considerable effort had to go into retraining that dog. The dogs work best when they are being consistently used for the purpose for which they are trained, be it whatever type of scent they are trained to track down, such as money, guns, ammunition, drugs or, in this case, the bodies of deceased individuals.
The Police Service of Northern Ireland, PSNI, has an arrangement with us. It is content to assist us, so its dog gets full operational exposure. The Deputy is right. A dog has an operational lifespan of approximately four years. We will have to co-ordinate carefully with the PSNI because in effect we do not want to be on the island of Ireland without one of these dogs. It may be in the future then that we have to invest in the purchase of a cadaver dog. As it is, there is an ongoing competition for dog handlers. Properly trained dogs, both general purpose dogs and search dogs, are an efficient and useful tactic for us. However, there are other techniques for searching for lost individuals. A lot of work has gone into the forensic recovery of bodies, so the use of a cadaver dog is only just one of the tactics that is available and can give an indication.
In respect of the murder of Michael Gaine, that is a full murder investigation. It is subject to our own policy in respect of murder investigation and that can include a peer review. A peer review is directed in that. I think Michael Gaine went missing on 20 March into 21 March. A considerable period of time has passed. It is nearly three months. This is an opportune time for us to take stock. The team that has been working on this has been completely immersed in it. It is a very recognised investigative tactic, in effect, to ask another set of individuals, who have not been involved in the investigation, to review what has been done and to offer up any other opportunities and lines of inquiry that they think are important. A peer review is standard practice for An Garda Síochána.
Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Commissioner. I hope that the culprit or culprits are brought to justice very soon. It has been upsetting for the family, the local community and all of Michael's friends. In regard to the matter of the cadaver dog, surely we must learn again from the mistakes of the past. This is all I am saying. It was only quite recently that An Garda Síochána got the water cannons from the PSNI as well. Maybe it is about time that we had our own materials and weapons to fight crime. It is a must for us. I emphasise the importance of having our own cadaver dogs.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is a point well made. Am I correct that the PSNI has one such dog for recovery of remains?
Mr. Drew Harris:
It only has one such dog. That dog visited Michael Gaine's farm in the third week of the search operation. It did search the farm and adjoining lands without giving an indication. I visited the investigation team at approximately four weeks and at that stage that had happened. As good as they are, they are not a foolproof tactic. It is just one of the many systems that we would want to use.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I do not think that anyone would suggest that. As a dog owner and dog lover, anybody will attest that they can pass suddenly. It seems to be a risky strategy to rely not only a dog of another police service, but only one between both services. It would seem to be prudent at the very minimum that An Garda Síochána would have its own dog that if the circumstances require that it could be shared with the PSNI. Of course, everybody will accept that there are limitations. Most people would also say, however, that had such a dog been readily available and been in the house of Tina Satchwell earlier, her remains would probably have been found earlier as well. Just to echo Deputy's Cahill point, it is a lesson to be learned. I hope Mr. Harris will appreciate that.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to offer my condolences on the death of Mr. Harris's colleague, Garda Flatley. I would like him to pass on my condolences to all of the members of An Garda Síochána for the loss of their colleague.
I listened to Mr. Harris's opening statement and to the reports on the media last night relating to the positive aspects of the Garda. I am going to be honest. They do not necessarily reflect the experiences of people in my community when it comes to the visibility of gardaí in the area. I represent Dublin Mid-West. We have three full-time Garda stations in Clondalkin, Ronanstown and Lucan. There is a part-time Garda station in Rathcoole. We also have Ballyfermot, which covers a small part of my constituency in Palmerstown. On paper that seems like a good service, but there is an issue unless we see gardaí on the ground and the street. There is a genuine lack of visibility in the area. I deal with people all the time relating to the response that they get from the Garda when they ring about incident, whatever the incident is. A garda might call two or three days later, or they might not get a call back at all and no one drops out to them. This gets reported to me on a regular basis. That leaves communities in a sense of fear. It also leaves parts of my community feeling that they are living in a lawless society because they have not got that visibility around there.
We have some really good community gardaí in my area. I know them and I have a good working relationship with them. One of my areas was mentioned by the Commissioner earlier in the context of the street leagues. I know the work that they do. It is fantastic. There is just not enough of them. One of the issues that I have, which I notice regularly, is when there is a serious incident in another part of Dublin, for example, there is a push to get that visibility on the streets of Dublin. It seems to come from the surrounding areas of Dublin and probably from outside of Dublin as well, where gardaí are taken from those areas and brought into another area. I know this.
If I know this, you had better believe the criminals working in my area know this, too. Any time there is a high-profile incident elsewhere in Dublin, people will see a high prevalence of antisocial behaviour, open drug dealing and the like going on in my area. When there is a serious incident - and there will be serious incidents; that is just the nature of the witnesses' line of work - is there a better way of dealing with it rather than taking away from communities already at a disadvantage?
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
There has not been as much of that recently - this may not be the Deputy's experience - but we have been very mindful of the issue. The Deputy also lives in a very busy area that we know needs staffing based on demand; there is no question about it.
Although the high visibility patrols are starting as a pilot in downtown Dublin, there are plans over time. I want to be careful about giving timelines immediately but we are looking at other areas, particularly in terms of displacement. We do not know if that is actually occurring, but we are hearing that. Like the Commissioner, I want to be mindful of what our numbers are and what we are able to do. It is difficult to make commitments but the plan was to look at how it worked in the downtown corps and see if there are ways to rotate that around. Instead of displacement from the Deputy's area, it would be into his area based on demand.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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It was mentioned in the opening statement that there was a new policy being developed on community policing. Would this issue be in the new policy? We need to see something in writing.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
No. The new policy relates to community policing guidelines and puts into practice the ethos of community policing. Our previous policy was quite prescriptive and we want to give more flexibility, which is what the Deputy is talking about. We want to be able to tailor the community response to what is needed locally. There will be principles but it will not be as prescriptive as what we currently have. There is a plan with respect to what high visibility looks like in Dublin and it is written into this plan.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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It was also mentioned in the opening statement the benefits of a new operating model, but the GRA stated at its annual conference that this would single-handedly remove community policing. How do the witnesses marry up these contrasting positions?
Mr. Drew Harris:
That is the GRA's expressed opinion on the structural change, which is the operating model. We are not at the strength we wish to be at but we also have more work coming through our door than we had in 2018. Regrettably, we have seen huge increases in the level of domestic abuse reports but also in respect of cybercrime, including fraud. There is much demand on the organisation and there are many people working hard to match this demand.
Some of the tension around workload is what one hears from the GRA. The GRA blames this on the model but I suggest it is more reasonable to look to the workload placed upon An Garda Síochána. We are at least in a position where we are supported for growth. We want to grow the size of the organisation in terms of warranted members. This will, in part, ease the demand on each individual.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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It would be fair to say that, if there were more gardaí, there would be less workload on the individuals there at present. On that point, the Commissioner mentioned there were 6,700 recent applications to join the Garda. I am aware not every applicant is suitable - I would not even guess how many would be suitable - but what is the capacity each year? Is it 1,000 per year who go through or where are we on that?
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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My concern is that there could be several suitable applicants in those 6,700 who applied but, because of the length of time they may be waiting, the organisation could lose them. Is there anything we can do to speed up that process?
Mr. Drew Harris:
We have already subjected the recruitment process to a thorough examination and I am pleased to say those who applied in February of this year were in yesterday's intake to the college. This is a fast turnaround, given the steps they must go through, which include vetting, a medical, a competency test for their physical capability, drugs testing, and interviews and role play assessment.
It is an extensive process for selecting individuals but we have a quick turnaround between February and June to see the first of those in. That will follow through in the August intake, which is only 11 weeks away.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Commissioner.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I have a couple of non-committee members, whom I will allow in briefly, but I have a couple of questions.
An Garda Síochána announced a review of several missing persons cases and, in essence, the organisation upgraded those cases to murder. How many cases were affected and when and how were those decisions made?
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
I believe the Chair is referring to the review of all missing persons cases, which took place in February. The returns have come back and we have not made final decisions on how many will be upgraded but several have been put forward for consideration. They are in the reconsideration process. I will be clear, in that the policy states these cases are to be reviewed on a quarterly basis. That is tracked. This review was in addition to that, where we asked for a specific, rigorous review of each and every case across country. That has been completed.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If there are several cases, as the witness as indicated, is it fair to say that it points to failings in the original or ongoing investigations?
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
No, I do not believe that is fair to say. It is a consideration of what it means when we talk about foul play. One of things we need to look at is reconsidering the policy on how that process works and where it goes from missing person to murder, particularly in cases where there is not a body. There has been a tremendous amount of work done on these cases, even if they have not necessarily been designated as a murder, and they continue to be reviewed. It was in addition to that process that we undertook one holistic review across the country.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How many cases were reviewed? Do the witnesses have that number?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Are we talking about dozens of cases?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How far back does this go?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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For the history of the-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Dr. Coxon.
The Commissioner will be aware that, the week before last, the Minister for justice issued an apology to the family of Shane O'Farrell. Shane was from my hometown. The apology related to the fact the person who killed Shane was at liberty. Does the Commissioner accept that there were Garda failings in that instance that would have warranted the apology from the Minister?
Mr. Drew Harris:
Yes. We are very aware of this tragic case. We are very away of where, in effect, mistakes were made. The Cathaoirleach will be aware that there was disciplinary action, which followed a complaint to what was then GSOC following this incident. That has all been followed through to its conclusion. As the Cathaoirleach can see, the Minister is determined that there be learnings and is following through in terms of a review of bail and what else might be done in respect of bail in light of the Constitution, which provides individual protections to people.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It has been well documented the man who killed Shane was in breach of multiple bail conditions across multiple sources. We also know from the scoping exercise conducted that there is a file on this individual within the Garda National Crime and Security Intelligence Service. Are there any circumstances in which the Garda would be willing to publish such a file on an individual, considering there is such a public interest in this particular case?
Mr. Drew Harris:
I would have to examine that. The question has never been put to me. It is certainly not our policy to publish files in respect of individuals. This is, in part, to protect intelligence.
Also, every individual has his or her own Article 8 rights to privacy and data protection. I am not aware of such a request and would need to look into it specifically.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It would be welcome it if Mr. Harris did.
Several non-committee members wish to contribute. I suggest that each have a five-minute interaction before I allow a run-down. Could they keep within that timeframe?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Will members have enough time to come back in?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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They will. I will make sure of it. I call Deputy Ó Súilleabháin, who is to be followed by Deputy Ní Raghallaigh.
Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I, too, would like to be associated with the remarks about Garda Kevin Flatley.
Having been a member of the joint policing committee for Wicklow–Wexford for many years, I have met Mr. Harris before and am acutely aware of the crisis with recruitment and retention. With regard to retention, I am thinking about the case of a person I know locally who is aged 19 or 20, is very athletic, has dreamed about becoming a garda all his life, went through all-Irish education and is of impeccable character. His father contacted me recently to state that even though his son had applied to join last year, he did not receive any reply. I wonder why. Subsequently, since he has heard nothing in the past year, he has been planning to emigrate to Canada. Why would something like that happen? It would be a terrible tragedy to lose people. With so many youths emigrating in droves, I realise there is obviously a huge challenge.
Over the past week, there was some confusion regarding recruitment in IPAS centres. That there had been such recruitment was previously dismissed but subsequently the Garda press officer clarified that there had been recruitment in IPAS centres or that those residing in the centres could become gardaí. I am not casting any aspersions whatsoever because I have been in the centres and have met many people of impeccable character in them. However, I note there are many countries with very strict criteria dictating who can become a member of a police force. In Ireland, you have to be an EU or EEA citizen. Am I correct that stamp 4 is probably not allowed? Could Mr. Harris clarify this? I believe it was clarified that there had been recruitment sessions in a number of IPAS centres. There was one in Wicklow in my constituency and one in Castlebar, and possibly a few others. Someone I know who works in Rathmines has said the same of the centre there. Since there is so much confusion online, can it be clarified whether those residing in IPAS centres can become members of the Garda?
Mr. Drew Harris:
I will deal with the second part of the question first. To join An Garda Síochána, you must be a national of the European Union, the EEA, the UK or the Swiss Confederation, or, under the International Protection Act, have been nominated as a refugee or a family member of such a person or a person granted subsidiary protection. Even the latter comes with a qualification in that one must have one year’s continuous residence in the State and, during the eight years immediately preceding it, have had a residence in the State amounting to four years. Any individual who meets that requirement must also meet the education, health, physical competence and vetting requirements. The confusion, to which I may have added, is that somebody seeking asylum is not yet regarded under the International Protection Act as either a refugee or a person who has been granted subsidiary protection. There is a process before an individual can attain that status. There is an opportunity. We do see various nationalities, and over the past two years, we have seen nationalities other than Irish join An Garda Síochána. They are very welcome and meet all the criteria. They have met the requirements of the competition to join.
On the individual case the Deputy raised with me, it is regrettable if it happened. I have not heard about it before. It is regrettable but there is another competition opening in the autumn and I would encourage the individual to apply again. Our processes are a good deal faster and slicker and I hope the individual can work through the system as quickly as possible.
Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Would the individual be able to contact the Garda before the next recruitment round in September?
Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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On my last point, can Mr. Harris clarify that those residing in IPAS centres can actually become members of the Garda?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In other words, they do not qualify while seeking international protection. It is only after the process has been completed.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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Mo chombhrón leis An Garda chomh maith.
In the aftermath of the Mothers Against Genocide protest at the Dáil, it was reported that the Commissioner said he was going to write to the Ceann Comhairle to state the complaints were inaccurate and that such a letter was later issued. The Minister later stated the footage of the incident in question would be examined. Following the Garda review, it was determined that the allegations were false. In the Commissioner's letter, he referred to a comprehensive review indicating all searches were lawful and in accordance with established procedures. Can he confirm that there are cameras at all the locations where the searches took place? I understand that, at the time, a complaint had not yet been made to Fiosrú. Was it proper for either the Commissioner or Minister to pre-empt a complaint to Fiosrú and categorically rule out any alleged impropriety?
Mr. Drew Harris:
I was extremely concerned when I noted the gravity of the allegations made. I asked for an inquiry to be conducted immediately. Under the Policing, Security and Community Safety Act, we have a responsibility to report to Fiosrú any incident of concern. We were unable to see anything that came close to, or remotely close to, the seriousness of the allegations made. The custody area, where one is received and in effect processed, is covered by a camera and audio. The search happened within a cell but that search can be heard. The exchanges between the two Garda members and the individual being searched can be heard. I have spoken to the two members involved in the search and they provided me with a full description of what happened. From that, I determined that there was nothing, in effect, for me to report to Fiosrú in respect of an incident of concern.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Could members try to keep to the three-minute mark? I call Deputy Gannon.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for letting me back in.
I want to go back to the issue I touched on but in respect of which I did not get the winning detail – the issue of child grooming by gangs who are exploiting children. This was mentioned to the Policing Authority recently through community engagement. Children, often between the ages of eight and 12, are being coerced with money, threats of violence and threats of sexual exploitation of the kind happening in communities at present. I hope the Garda is treating this with urgency. The Garda has done an incredibly good job going after the high-profile figures and some of the middlemen. In this regard, we have seen the raids and the extraction of assets. That is all great but one of the consequences is that drug-related intimidation and violence have become worse, more entrenched in communities and more insidious. I hope Mr. Harris is treating this with the urgency it deserves. I am not for one second saying that a child needs to be before the court regarding this issue. Far from it; rather, I believe children need to be protected and wrapped around with all the care of the State. What I am suggesting, in the hope that the matter will be treated with the urgency it deserves, is that anyone exploiting a child in the manner in question needs to be dealt with quickly, because what I describe is happening. Anecdotal stories from Dublin and Meath – we are actually reading about this happening across the country at the moment – are genuinely terrifying. I hope this is the highest priority of the Garda.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I thank the Deputy and reassure him that this is one of the top items on our agenda. The way organised crime groups work, as he well knows, is that they go down the chain and look for people to exploit others. They do all the things the Deputy referred to, such as giving gifts and issuing threats. It is also connected to drugs-related intimidation.
The key for us, as several Deputies have mentioned today, are the community gardaí.
They are the ones who are picking up on this for us, along with our network of juvenile liaison officers. I completely agree with the Deputy that this is not a matter for the courts. We are trying to intervene wherever we can and identify children who are in those situations. We then refer them to our partner agencies such as Tusla. That multi-agency approach is needed for children.
As I said, I assure the Deputy that I am absolutely in agreement with him. It is terrible what people will do around the exploitation of children. There is also sexual exploitation and we see all the work we have done around that as well. That is why, and the Commissioner spoke earlier about this, our network of community gardaí is so important to us.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I fully agree that the network of community gardaí is absolutely essential, which is why I hope we can maintain it at the previous standard.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I have one quick question. We heard recently about gardaí being sent to Dublin. Often, the reason for this is not necessarily for community policing purposes. Community policing is essential to delivering the types of services our community needs, which is gardaí at the door. The small areas policing initiative that was used ten years ago or so set a standard and I would love to see us go back to it.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is a point to note.
Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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At a justice committee meeting I attended during the previous term, I was informed by the then Minister that more than 80% of international protection applicants were coming in to the country via the open land border with Northern Ireland. What is the current estimate of that figure? I understand there is a Garda unit operating along the Border. How successful has the unit been and is Mr. Harris satisfied it is staffed adequately to address that particular issue?
I wished Mr. Harris well in his retirement earlier. All of us have had our ups and downs and highs and lows in our careers and I am sure the Commissioner is no different in that regard. A number of years ago, a GRA survey found that 98% of its membership had no confidence in the Commissioner. I am sure that was a difficult time for him personally and for Garda management. Has that figure changed in the intervening period? What advice, if any, would Mr. Harris give to the person who will occupy his chair in a number of months?
Mr. Drew Harris:
In respect of movement across the land border, that is covered by an operation called Operation Sonnet. Last year, there were 37 days of action, which resulted in 235 persons being refused leave to land and, in effect, being returned to Northern Ireland. The abuse of the common travel area - the polarity of that can switch both ways - is still a major problem for us in terms of individuals entering the State illegally. Last year, there were 156 deportations and 1,116 individuals voluntarily returned. That gives some idea of the scale, yet there are individuals who regularly turn up and apply for international protection who have not come through our airports or ports. We can only then surmise they are using the land border to enter the State. That is still the most significant entry point. At this moment, I cannot say what that percentage is. Mr. Kelly might be able to help with regard to the recent work on that.
Mr. Justin Kelly:
Just to add to what the Commissioner said, we work closely with the PSNI and the immigration authorities in the UK. We have a member of An Garda Síochána permanently based in Belfast working only on the protection of the common travel area. Causeway, a UK multi-agency group based in Liverpool, does work around the common travel area. The Garda will send over a dedicated officer to work with that as well. For us, interaction with the PSNI and the UK immigration Border Force happens on a daily basis.
We have had successful prosecutions of people who are facilitating this. As the Senator well knows, there are people organising this, paying the taxi men and all that sort of stuff to get people across the Border and try to get around the protections we put in place for the common travel area. They are complex investigations but we have investigated and prosecuted people. We will continue to do that. As the Commissioner said, that flow across the Border can change. As the Senator again well knows, a number of years ago it was going the other direction. People were flying into Dublin, going to Northern Ireland and then over to the UK. Now we see a lot going the other way. Much of that is affected by external pressures outside of our control in Ireland. That will put pressures on the border for us.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have two quick comments and a question. I have serious concern about our interaction earlier about Evan Fitzgerald. I have serious concern that he was engaged with by An Garda Síochána, that he was met by undercover members of An Garda Síochána, that guns and ammunition were taken from headquarters and delivered to him, that he was arrested, that An Garda Síochána agreed to his bail and that, subsequently, he killed himself. I have serious concerns in relation to all of that. I also have serious concern in relation to the log and this type of holster Detective Garda Horkan had because it was not on the continuity log in the property and exhibits management system, PEMS. That is not how it should be.
The picture I am holding has been out in the media for quite a bit. It shows where guns and ammunition were stored. The picture has been out now for the guts of three or four months. It is amazing the way they were stored. Why, in the past 24 hours, have the guns and ammunition in this container been wrapped up, taken out of storage and sent away to be destroyed at a cost of approximately €160,000? That is my first question.
The second question, which is to the Commissioner, is in relation to section 41. There was publicity about a certain gun that was brought in a number of years ago and found to be back on the streets again in 2023. Obviously, this gun was used by hardened criminals, yet it ended up back on the street again. In July 2023, the Commissioner was informed of this. Under section 41 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005, the Commissioner has to inform the Minister of serious issues. It took him until April 2024 to inform the Minister. Why did it take eight months?
My final question relates to section 41 and the 17,000 live scan fingerprints. For those watching and for the members here, live scan fingerprints are fingerprints that are taken from individuals for various reasons. These live scan fingerprints were lost in July 2021. Why was this not raised with the Minister under section 41? Remember, I have asked the Minister this question. Why was this not raised under section 41? These 17,000 sets of fingerprints could, or could not, be helpful in cases in the future, as the Commissioner will appreciate. Why was this not raised with the Minister under section 41?
Mr. Justin Kelly:
I thank the Deputy for the question. In relation to the container he referred to and the movement of it, that container has defective Garda ammunition in it for our own official firearms. To move that out of the country, specific licensing is needed. There is nowhere within the Republic of Ireland where that can be destroyed. Obviously, as the Deputy can imagine, there are all sorts of protections and environmental concerns around destroying ammunition like this. We had to get that done in Germany. To get it to Germany, various export licences are needed to bring it through all those countries. It is a very difficult and complicated process to go through. We finally got that across the line. In fact, the container only moved yesterday and went to the port to be moved today. We are very satisfied that has moved because it has taken us a long time to move it out of the country.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Look at the cut of it. It is crazy.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I ask the Garda Commissioner to answer the other questions, just for time purposes.
Mr. Drew Harris:
In respect of the sawn-off shotgun, the last record of it being in the entire community An Garda Síochána's custody goes back to April 2010 and then it was recovered in August 2023. That was then reported to me, I believe, on 21 August 2023. The reason it took eight months for a full report to be submitted to the Minister was that I was awaiting the outturn of the preliminary investigation being undertaken at a local level as to the disappearance of this weapon. Regrettably, we were not able to source or discover how this weapon, in effect, left Garda custody-----
Mr. Drew Harris:
-----and to the Policing Authority. Prior to that, I provided verbal updates in respect of the loss of this firearm. It was very topical at that time because the Deputy may remember that in November of that year, 2 kg of cannabis were stolen from a Garda station and we had another issue with property, which the Deputy raised earlier, and that was the two bikes that were taken from the station. A lot of the issues around property and our evidence management system were all coming together.
Throughout 2024, one will see that the authority being aware of this issue and spent a lot of time examining our processes around the property and exhibit management system, PEMS.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Will the Commissioner speak about the issue of fingerprints?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Are we not in breach of human rights of 17,000 people? Is 17,000 sets of fingerprints, in terms of the capacity and loss as regards investigating cases, in particular, not a huge loss for the police force?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Clearly, there are GDPR issues in this regard.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I will go back to two issues. Picking up on the point about the Mothers Against Genocide, I am going back a step on that in terms of whether the Commissioner feels their arrests in general were a necessary use of police time given that it was a peaceful protest. They were not blocking anyone from entry during that given time and there is a right to protest. Lots of steps could have been taken to de-escalate any sort of situation without ending up in a Garda station in the first place. We have several women saying they had visual cavity searches.
I am confused. There were several Garda stations and several points at which women are saying they were subject to a strip search or a visual cavity search, and there are different experiences emerging from different stations. The investigation or inquiry on the Commissioner's behalf into what happened consisted of a discussion on feedback from the arresting police or those who were present in the police stations. What verified for the Commissioner that this did not happen was that in each of those locations there were people outside the doors and they were able to say they could hear verbal, or non-verbal, instructions from inside those rooms. The Commissioner stated that the people outside the doors clarified what happened within the rooms, cells or whatever locations the searches supposedly happened. Will he walk me through that? I am sure people outside a door cannot hear a visual cavity search. Is the Commissioner saying that those people said there is a script that is used during a search and that is all that was said. What exactly was said? I am struggling to understand how that determination could be made from conversation. I am not sure the police conduct investigations in general when accusations are made by just having a light conversation around such an incident. Will the Commissioner explain that further?
Mr. Drew Harris:
In respect of the protests in front of these premises, there are prosecutions pending so I feel I am somewhat restricted in what I might say. If we step aside from the actual ongoing prosecutions, we have a responsibility to allow Members to have access to these premises, as well as to facilitate process. We endeavour to facilitate protests and we see that all of the time but at a certain point we also have to ensure Members have free access to these buildings. That is one of our responsibilities.
In respect of the allegations made about private parts being touched, that was also attached to a certain sequence of events around clothing. That only happened at one particular Garda station. There is a recording and that recording has been retained. Fiosrú has mounted an investigation. The recording has been retained so there is the video and audio recording of the reception area, which also captures the corridor and what was being said can be heard quite clearly. It was all at a very calm level. There was no heightened emotion, conversation or alarm whatsoever. Everything was done in a very level sense. There were two members of An Garda Síochána present who gave me their account of this, which tallied with what I could see and what I could hear.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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The Commissioner is saying that, in relation to the complaints that were made, he is differentiating between somebody making an accusation that her private parts were touched versus some people may have received strip searches or cavity searches. Is he saying there is some truth in what potentially did happen in some of those accusations?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I remind the member and the Commissioner to be live to the fact there is a Fiosrú investigation ongoing.
Mr. Drew Harris:
I stand over the correspondence and the examination that I conducted of this matter. The test I had was: did I see something sufficient for an incident of concern to report to Fiosrú? No, I did not. I was very concerned then that there were two female Garda members - it is very clear where they are attached to - and very serious allegations were made against them, in effect, of an assault. It was not borne out by anything I could see or hear, or their accounts of it. I stand over that completely.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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There is still a space where something could have happened, where there is no video footage. If people are going to complain, there is due course. There was something made public. There is a committee of parliamentary privileges where any State institution or any individual can make a complaint if they are unhappy about something said on the record here. This issue was made very public, institutionally, even in terms of the Minister commenting but also the Commissioner bypassing the normal procedure in writing to the Oireachtas committee on privileges.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We are running very tight on time.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Why did the Commissioner choose to do that and to bypass that process and ask the Ceann Comhairle to circulate that communication before an independent investigation could actually take place?
Mr. Drew Harris:
Because of the seriousness of the allegation and the damage to public confidence if, in effect, that had just been allowed to lie in the absence of any complaint being made at that time. I was responding to that scenario in terms of protecting confidence in An Garda Síochána. I was also being mindful of the two Garda members and the impact on them and their reputations within the organisation. I understand they were not named within these Houses and that their privacy was respected here but this comes down to two individuals who were in that custody area and it could not have been anybody else. That is well known.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There are two members who have not come in yet so I will allow them to come in and there are other members who have not had a second opportunity to come in yet. Senator Rabbitte will be next, followed by Senator McDowell.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Please be conscious of time as we have to be finished by half past.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I will. My contribution is more of a comment than anything else. In regard to the operating model, I come from east Galway and we might only have two Garda cars on some nights. I live in Portumna, Gort is my main base and there is also Loughrea. It takes 40 minutes to go from Portumna from Gort. If one car is out and one garda is left in the station the number of gardaí who can respond is reduced dramatically. With our next set of recruits, those in the Garda stations in east Galway would love to think they could get one or two extra gardaí. It would be greatly appreciated.
My main focus is on online safety and the child exploitation wing of the Garda National Cyber Crime Bureau. Has it enough staff given where adolescence is and the fears parents have about online safety? I compliment the work Detective Deirdre Holland has done locally in Galway in supporting the Think Smart campaign and going out into the community.
It has been very helpful having a member of An Garda Síochána with experience talking to parents and informing them of what gardaí see behind the scenes, without breaching anything. That work is the reasonable voice saying that if parents have a doubt, or their gut tells them something is wrong, they have a right to have that doubt. That experience is really valuable. I would like to know whether there are enough numbers for that. Is the Garda looking to increase them? Is there something we should be doing to support that action?
I will not get into any particular groups, but the trauma feuding groups is having on children is preventing some children in some communities from even going to school because the feud spills over. The children might not even be aware of it but the parents do not want to meet at the gate. We can read about feuding in the papers every day of the week, but what is its impact on children on the ground in accessing education? Ballinasloe is down the road from where I live. It has the second-highest level of deprivation after Darndale. While gardaí are doing excellent work there, we certainly need more community gardaí to support the various generations.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
I thank the Senator. I hope I get to all her questions. I do not have the Galway numbers in front of me but we sent 18 of the new recruits from the most recent class to the north-west region. That was something I was asked for by those in the region. They wanted more new recruits coming out of Templemore, which happened, along with three transfers. A total of 21 gardaí went to the north-west region.
With respect to child exploitation, the Senator is absolutely right that we do not have enough people. One of the what we call flow-throughs, or people who got moved to national units on foot of this class graduating on Friday, went into that unit. It is part of a broader uplift because we know that we have capacity issues there.
I will not address the Senator's last question because of time, but I appreciate what she said with respect to feuds and the impact on children. I could not agree with her more. We work with partners such as Tusla to see what we can do, but that is obviously most effective when children feel safe. We have seen this in a couple of instances throughout the country. It is certainly something we are aware of and doing as much as we can on.
Michael McDowell (Independent)
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I welcome the Commissioner and his colleagues. I thank him for his service to the State since 2018. It is very much appreciated by those who have experience of these matters for a long time. I compliment him on his dedication to law enforcement north and south of the Border for so long.
We live in a strange world when in 2007, the same year the people of Dublin South-East dispensed with my services, the total number of gardaí, including student gardaí, was 14,258 and it is now 14,221. By 2013, the number of Garda reservists was 1,164 and there are now only 204. I will make a point about visibility, as Senator Gallagher did. Visibility is all-important. The Garda Reserve idea has huge potential for the visibility of policing throughout the country, if it is taken seriously. I know there was a financial meltdown, Covid and all sorts of things. The Department of Finance as it then was, and then the Department of public expenditure and reform, did their level best to stop any recruitment of gardaí in the intervening years. We are only now achieving where we were in 2012 and, in many respects, are behind it. The recruitment promises made by successive Governments have to be delivered on. I will not ask the witnesses to be controversial and agree with that proposition but I am saying, particularly in relation to the Garda Reserve, it is a squandered opportunity. The fact that it is at a fifth of its former level is a sad reflection on the failure to make Irish policing local, connected with the community and visible.
Having said those things, I will ask one more question related to Deputy Kelly's point. Am I to understand from the answers given today that in the case of Evan Fitzgerald, the firearms with which he was found in possession and prosecuted for possession of, were the subject of a controlled delivery by members of An Garda Síochána prior to that? Did members of An Garda Síochána meet him prior to arranging the controlled delivery? I suggest they should have been aware whether he was or was not a vulnerable person, as we are now told by the media he was. Is that a fair understanding? I do not want to go into the people against whom charges are still outstanding, but in relation to Evan Fitzgerald, is that the bottom line of what Deputy Kelly asked and got answered?
Michael McDowell (Independent)
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I have no problem with the idea.
Mr. Drew Harris:
This followed a classic controlled delivery. Obviously, with this being an examination following the terrible incident of 1 June, we have looked to what we knew of this individual beforehand. I want to be very careful because he has been described as many things in the media, but in our interactions with him he was compliant. He complied with this bail conditions up until 1 June. Certainly, by his behaviours we did not anticipate the events of 1 June.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Did Deputies Brabazon or Cahill want to come in, very briefly?
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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I wholeheartedly endorse what Senator McDowell said regarding the Garda Reserve numbers. It makes eminent sense that we have additional visible bodies on the street, whether they are full-time attested gardaí or part-time reservists. It does not really matter to the public, as long as they feel safe.
My question relates to rank and file morale. I have not met every member of the force, or anything like it, but anybody I have met complains about Garda morale in the rank and file being very low. They are complaining about something that touches on what Senators McDowell and Gallagher said about visibility. Gardaí are tied up in a lot of paperwork in stations and are not out on the streets. All that paperwork does not reflect the work they thought they joined the force to do. They are complaining about the fleet being in a heap and about insufficient vehicles. The public is complaining that when they ring up a local Garda station, "the car" is not available. I am not talking about a rural station. I am talking about one of the busiest stations in the country. Gardaí are also complaining about the new uniform falling about. They do not feel comfortable in it and it does not suit anything less than the perfect body image. Perhaps the Commissioner will address that.
Mr. Drew Harris:
The uniform was implemented in full consultation with the associations. We buy very good equipment. It may not be branded but, specifically, I know the brand of the coats we purchased and it is a very recognisable brand. Undoubtedly, the uniform is a far superior product in terms of its serviceability and operational purposes. It is the responsibility of Garda members to seek replacement. The uniform does get wear and tear and it is then their responsibility to seek replacement.
In respect of the vehicles, the vehicle fleet has grown by a third since 2018. A particular vehicle that was being used a lot as a patrol vehicle is being replaced by what I regard to be a superior vehicle.
We have improved the safety of individuals in that we have high-visibility markings on Garda vehicles. That goes for the uniform too. The equipment, the availability of ICT, serviceable uniforms and the protective equipment available to members have all moved on in recent years.
With regard to morale, I meet a lot of gardaí. I go around to a lot of stations and I find people in good spirits in the work they are doing, although there are things they would like changed. The burden in respect of the number of calls and the administration that flows from that is reflected to me. We are looking at ways to make that more efficient and to speed things up but many of the processes we have had to put in place relate to accountability for the use of coercive powers. We are in the third decade of the 21st century. That involves using ICT, being accountable and having a record of our dealings with the public. That is a standard but we want to make it as efficient as possible. There is no point in having gardaí effectively sitting at terminals all of the time. That is not what we want. That is why we have put mobile devices in their hands and why we are giving those devices more and more capabilities. These capabilities include checking driver and insurance details.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am going to allow Deputy Cahill in very briefly. He is okay. On that note, I thank Commissioner Harris, Deputy Commissioner Shawna Coxon and Deputy Commissioner Justin Kelly. Our engagement was frank. I thank the witnesses for ensuring their responses were equally frank and to the point. They have indicated they will respond in writing to a number of queries that were raised. We would welcome those responses at the witnesses' earliest convenience.
There is one small point I urge the witnesses to consider when they return to their offices, which relates to policing in the vicinity of this building, particularly when announced protests are taking place. Quite frankly, it is embarrassing to drive through a wall of security and barricades only to see, in some instances, 50 people with placards on the street. I was a member of another parliament and most people here will have attended or visited other parliaments across Europe. It is very unusual to see such a security presence outside a parliament as regularly as we currently see it here. We know it is being done for the right policing reasons but I urge a rethink.
I wish the witnesses well. I particularly wish Commissioner Harris well on his upcoming retirement and whatever he decides to do subsequently. We will give the witnesses time to leave and then have a very quick private session.