John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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No apologies have been received. Everyone is very welcome. I remind all those in attendance to ensure that their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.

Before we proceed, I have a few housekeeping matters to go through. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice and ruling of the Cathaoirleach to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 226 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies. We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied by Ms Paula O’Connor, deputy director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

The public business before us is as follows: accounts and financial statements and correspondence. We will then go into private session to examine housekeeping matters. At 10.30 a.m. we will begin our public session to engage with the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, the Arts Council and the National Gallery of Ireland.

I would like to announce that Deputy Paul McAuliffe was elected as Leas-Chathaoirleach at the last committee meeting. I congratulate Paul again.

No sets of accounts and financial statements were laid between 19 and 23 May 2025.

We now move to correspondence, as previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion for this meeting will be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated, and decisions taken by the committee on correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee’s meetings and published on the committee’s webpage.

The first category under which items have been flagged is category B – correspondence from Accounting Officers or Ministers and follow-up to PAC meetings. The first correspondence is No. R0004B from Ms Madeline Delaney, chief executive, Charities Regulator, dated 13 November 2024, and provides follow-up information requested by the committee at the meeting of 17 October 2024. Deputy Farrelly flagged this item for discussion.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Could we write to the regulator seeking clarity as to whether there was a capacity review and whether this is the project referred to on page 2 of the report, on which Pobal did a scoping exercise, and whether the committee can get the costs associated with that project?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is that agreed? Agreed. It is proposed to note and publish this item and take those follow-up actions. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. R0005B is from Mr. Christy Duffy, chief executive, City of Dublin Education and Training Board, dated 14 November 2024, and provides follow-up information requested by the committee on noncompliant procurement. I flagged this item for discussion. There is a continuing issue with ETBs. We have seen similar issues crop up with a number of them. I would like to return to this item during the discussion on our work programme with a suggested course of action for a series of meeting to call in some of the ETBs. I will defer that until we return to the work programme.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I have no issue with the accounts of the education and training board but they were party to a Department of Education building programme that involved Western Building Systems. The previous committee had written to them. Can we write to the Department of Education and the ETB seeking an update on the site on the Swords Road?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is fair enough. Is that agreed? Agreed. It is proposed to note and publish this item. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. R0008B is from Ms Bernie McNally, Secretary General, Department of Education, dated 15 November 2024, provides follow-up information requested by the committee on noncompliant procurement. Deputy Farrelly flagged this item for discussion.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I seek clarification on the extent of noncompliance. Were the projects fully delivered and were any issues raised relating to the contractors, particularly in regard to Version 1, which is on the list quite often? Can we seek clarification from the Department, first, on whether all these projects were fully delivered within budget and then whether there were any issues with the suppliers?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We can follow that up and write to the Department. Is that agreed? Agreed. It is proposed to note and publish this item. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. R0034B is from Mr. Colm O'Reardon, Secretary General, Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science dated 22 November 2024. It provides follow-up information requested by the committee on late submission of accounts for the Grangegorman Development Agency, the National College of Art and Design and SOLAS. Deputy Farrelly flagged this item for discussion.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I did not flag that.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We will move on. It is proposed to note and publish this item. Is that agreed? Agreed

No. R0045B from Mr. Hugh Creegan, chief executive, National Transport Authority, dated 16 December 2024, provides correspondence to the committee on the national train control centre project. Deputy Farrelly flagged this item for discussion.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We had a couple of issues to raise relating the NTA. On carriages, we were trying to see if there was a correlation between the briefing that was happening where we were seeing a reduced fleet capacity in some ways. Correspondence said there was an increased fleet capacity on some lines but fleet capacity has also reduced on others. We need to see how that correlates. That related to No. R0020. On this one specifically, can we request an update from the NTA regarding its strategy to keep costs as low as possible? This is to understand the likely overall cost outturn being €188 million. Can we get an update from the NTA on how that is progressing?

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I would like to put the NTA on our list to invite in. It has a lot of projects under way. In particular, I am looking at the contract for payments, which is not going through until 2028.

I would like to get an understanding of compliance with the public service code and so on to make sure we are getting value for money and an indication as to how the work is progressing.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We will certainly keep that for consideration under our work programme. I am sure other members will agree to that. Is it agreed that we write to the NTA looking for specific information on costs and an update, as proposed by Deputy Farrelly? Agreed. It is proposed to note and publish this item but to redact personal data related to individuals. Is that agreed? Agreed.

That concludes our consideration of correspondence this week. We will move into private session before resuming in public session at 10.30 a.m.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Everyone is welcome. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are in silent mode or switched off. I will explain some limitations on parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty, as Cathaoirleach, to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative they comply with any such direction. Witnesses are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.

This morning we will engage with witnesses from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media to discuss the appropriation accounts 2023. I welcome witnesses from the Arts Council of Ireland and the National Gallery of Ireland. Before I call on them to make their opening statements, Deputy Geoghegan indicated at our earlier private meeting that he wished to speak briefly on our engagement last week with CHI. I ask him to be brief.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The Chair will be aware that I wrote to him on Monday seeking that we bring back the CEO of Children's Health Ireland, CHI, at the earliest possible opportunity. The committee is now in agreement that we will write to the CEO of CHI to ask a number of questions about the revelations by The Sunday Times about the National Treatment Purchase Fund. My question in this instance is for the Comptroller and Auditor General. Has he had the opportunity to review the board minutes from this period in 2021? Will he tell the committee the extent to which the issues revealed by The Sunday Times were flagged in those minutes? The issue was not brought to the attention of the Committee of Public Accounts by the new CEO when she appeared last Thursday.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

We identified a board minute that relates to April 2022 when a report was brought to the committee. From my understanding of the matters that were reported on recently, some were not highlighted in the minute, but other aspects of the matter were discussed by the board.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It was unanimously agreed by the members that we invite CHI and other witnesses to appear again before the committee. I have strong views on the possibility that the committee was misled with regard to information given to it. When specific questions were asked about other reviews or information that should be given to the committee, a definitive "No" was given. There is also an issue with resignations and particularly one resignation that took place from the board during the week of the appearance of CHI before the committee and that information was not given to members of the committee. By unanimous agreement, we will invite CHI back at the earliest opportunity. I thank members for that.