Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 28 May 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture and Food
Engagement with Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine
2:00 am
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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There are no apologies. Before we begin, I will read the note on privilege. Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means that witnesses have a full defence in any defamation action taken based on anything they say in the committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's discretion. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, where reasonable and unless there is no alternative, no commentary should be made identifying a third person or entity. Witnesses giving evidence from outside the location of the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same legal immunity as witnesses giving evidence from inside the parliamentary precincts and may consider taking legal advice on this matter.
I welcome the Minister. Tá fáilte romhat anseo, a Aire. I welcome the Minister and his officials to today's meeting, the first public meeting of the committee with witnesses in attendance. The agenda for our meeting is to meet with the Minister for agriculture, food and fisheries and the marine, Deputy Martin Heydon. The officials accompanying the Minister are Sinéad McPhillips, assistant secretary, international affairs and rural development; Paul Savage, assistant secretary, rural development and forestry; Conor O'Mahony, principal officer, ERAD veterinary medicines; Damien Barrett, senior superintendent vet inspector, ERAD ruminant animal health; and Ted Massey, senior inspector, nitrates, biodiversity and engineering.
The Minister may call on his officials to speak briefly for clarification during a meeting where the specific or technical point arises. The officials can clarify issues to the committee. Any follow-up questions should be put to the Minister because he is the accountable person before the committee. We have the Minister's opening statement. It is the first public meeting of the committee and we wanted to meet with him particularly on a number of specific issues that are really troubling people locally. They are TB, the new CAP, nitrates, GAEC 2 and ACRES. There will be an opportunity after the opening statement for the members to address questions to the Minister.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. I wish you and the members of the committee well. It is a great honour for me to be Minister for agriculture but also to be here before the committee today to engage with members. I was a member of this committee for many years. I know its importance in holding Ministers and officials to account and in raising the important issues on behalf of people. I will fly through the opening statement as quickly as I can. The great benefit of this body is the questions and answers and the back and forth. I want to touch on all five points on the agenda for today in my opening statement.
As Minister, I am determined to communicate a fresh understanding of what it is that farmers, fishers, foresters and the food industry contribute to Irish society and the economy. I know that is an ambition the committee shares also. The roots of these sectors run deep. There is not a parish in the country that is not enriched by the contribution they make or where some small business does not depend on them for its existence.
The sector is responsible for the stewardship of 4.5 million ha of agricultural land and over 800,000 ha of forestry. It consists of 133,000 farms, 2,000 fishing vessels and aquaculture sites, and some 2,000 food production and beverage enterprises. It employs 171,400 people, representing 6.4% of the total workforce, but a far greater proportion in rural and coastal areas. In an increasingly globalised world, the Irish agrifood sector is a world leader. All of this is underpinned, and made possible, by the work of those producing the raw material.
The agenda items outlined in the committee's invitation are the nitrates derogation, the next CAP, GAEC 2, TB and ACRES. All of these are pressing issues and issues of concern for the farming community. Turning first to water quality and the nitrates derogation, there is now an unprecedented and significant level of engagement and support right across government, farmers and the broader agrifood industry all focused on one common objective: improving water quality and securing Ireland’s nitrates derogation. Our commitment is underlined through the establishment of the Cabinet committee on water quality, chaired by the Taoiseach, which has been established to co-ordinate water quality improvements across all sectors, not just agriculture.
At last December’s EU nitrates committee meeting, my Department advised the European Commission that Ireland is seeking permission to continue applying in excess of 170 kg livestock manure nitrogen per hectare from 2026. As the only EU member state left seeking to avail of this provision, it is going to be a real challenge for us to secure the next derogation. Notwithstanding improved water quality data from the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, last year, there is no room for complacency. In addition to working with the EU nitrates committee, there is ongoing engagement at EU level. Last Monday, I spoke with Commissioner Jessika Roswall in Brussels on the importance of the nitrates derogation to Ireland.
Over the coming months, this Government will continue to engage with stakeholders at both national and European level on the next nitrates action programme and on the nitrates derogation to ensure we put forward the strongest case possible to secure its retention post 2025.
The Common Agricultural Policy is essential to supporting a fair and sufficient income for farmers. The current CAP Strategic Plan 2023-2027 delivers almost €2 billion in supports to the Irish farming and food sectors annually. Ensuring that the CAP remains a key priority in the next EU budget or multi-annual financial framework is therefore absolutely essential for our country overall. The world order has changed in the most profound way since the last negotiation on the MFF. While the EU faces rising demands in areas such as defence, research and digitisation, we must ensure that the social cohesion and stability of our rural communities is maintained. If we are to protect the CAP, it is vital that we position agriculture and food as a major strategic priority for the European Union. Experiences over the past few years, from the Covid pandemic to the war in Ukraine and the current trade tensions with the US, have underlined the vital importance of our agrifood sector. Food supply chains have proved really resilient but we should not take our food or the people who produce it for granted. The Commission is expected to publish the draft CAP post-2027 regulations shortly after the MFF proposals in July of this year. I have set out my four key priorities for the next CAP and, as negotiations progress, I will continue to advocate for a distinct, two-pillar and ring-fenced EU funding programme for the CAP that supports farm resilience, environmental ambition and rural development.
GAEC 2 is a mandatory condition of the payment of the basic income support for farmers. It is intended to protect wetlands and peatlands. EU regulations require all member states to have a standard in place from the start of this year. Ireland’s agreed GAEC 2 standard, which has been developed in consultation with stakeholders, will have a minimal impact on normal farming practices as it builds on existing national requirements. On 14 May, the European Commission published a CAP simplification proposal. As with any new legislation, we will need to carefully examine the details of the proposals and evaluate the potential and possible impact for Ireland. My Department made submissions on the simplification proposals for Commission consideration. On conditionality, my Department asked for the removal of GAEC 2 from the regulations on the basis of overlap between these requirements and other national and EU legislation. However, the removal of GAEC 2 has not been included in the proposal so it will remain a conditionality requirement and will have to be applied from this year onwards. Individual farmers with GAEC 2 land have been notified that they have lands that will be subject to the new standard. Notifications have gone out as a text alert, letters have been sent in the post and there have been information leaflets.
Bovine TB is a challenging disease to control and eradicate. It is a disease that is having a significant impact on our farmers and their families both financially and emotionally throughout rural Ireland. In recent years, bovine TB levels have deteriorated. Herd incidence has increased from 4.31% in 2022 to 6.04% in 2024, resulting in a 36% increase in the number of herds restricted between those two years. With that, the cost of the TB programme has increased steadily for the Exchequer, for farmers and in terms of lost output. Current projections show an approach of business as usual will lead to further deterioration of disease levels. I am therefore engaged in consultation with key stakeholders on a reset of Ireland’s TB eradication programme. My overriding objective is to strike a balance between minimising the number of affected farmers and introducing impactful measures that will reduce the current levels of bovine TB. We must provide farmers who are dealing with the stress of a TB outbreak today a pathway to navigate a way out of a restriction while also protecting the 94% of farmers and their families whose herds are currently free of TB. This will involve dealing with the multiple infection routes and causes of this disease, be it wildlife, cattle-to-cattle transmission or the residual infection left behind. I hope to achieve a broad consensus with farmer organisations and key stakeholders but there is an urgency here and I intend to move quickly to refine the programme and ensure that the necessary steps are taken to reduce the impact of this disease on farmers and their families.
The agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES, is the first scheme of its kind to upscale results-based payments to a national level. Implementing such an ambitious scheme has come with complexities and challenges and I recognise the frustration of those whose payments have been delayed. Almost €492 million, nearly half a billion euro, has been paid to participants since the commencement of the scheme in January 2023. Almost 98% of tranche 1 participants are fully paid up in respect of 2023. Some €209.1 million has been paid to date to 48,723 farmers in respect of participation in ACRES in 2024. This represents approximately 90% of all ACRES participants. A total of €34.3 million had been paid out so far to 45,112 farmers in balancing payments for 2024, which represents just under 84% of all ACRES participants. I want to be really clear that my Department is committed to resolving the issues that have been delaying the remaining payments as soon as possible and we are making progress in this regard. However, I recognise that all these figures I have outlined are cold comfort to those who have not been sorted. It is my absolute priority to get those cases resolved as quickly as possible. Additional resources have been deployed and my officials are systematically working through the remaining issues associated with the outstanding cases. Payment runs will continue to be scheduled every week - we have built up that momentum now and are clearing them every week - to ensure payments continue across all tranches and scheme years as cases pass the required validation checks.
Farmers have a central role to play as food producers, employers, a foundation of sustainable rural communities, protectors of the environment and guarantors of food security in Europe and the world. We must recognise and defend the essential role they play in building a sustainable Ireland for future generations. I thank the committee for giving me time to deliver this opening address this afternoon. I welcome the questions and debate that will follow.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire. Cuirfimid fáilte anois roimh cheisteanna trí Ghaelainn nó trí Bhéarla. I will open it to the floor. The first speaker is Senator Collins.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister and thank him for giving of his time to be here. I have just two or three points to make. The first is on the delays to ACRES payments. The Minister has said he is now more or less on top of the issue. I know it came down to IT issues. Can he give assurances that these delays will not continue? Much of the backlog has been covered but, given that it took so much time to do that, has the possibility of future backlogs been looked at? Are there extra staff in those departments to make sure it does not happen again?
What happens when schemes go wrong? Under the ash dieback scheme that is in place, some landowners are being asked to get extra reports done before felling their trees. They would have had an ecological report done to plant them and now, because ash dieback has hit, they are being asked for another ecological report to fell them even though it is still the same land. They are having to pay upfront for these reports to be done and some of them are costing up to €2,000.
My last question is also on forestry. How is the Minister going to square the circle as regards GAEC? We are trying not to plant on peatlands but a junior Minister is advocating not only to continue planting on peatlands, but to increase it. As the Minister will know, that goes against GAEC.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator very much for raising those points. They are very relevant. On the future of ACRES, the reason it is taking time to come up with the solutions we are working through is that I want to be absolutely assured that they are permanent ones. I want to restore confidence in this scheme. It is a fantastic scheme. As I have said, almost half a billion euro has been paid out to farmers since the beginning of 2023. Negativity has centred around farmers not getting paid when they expected to get paid, which is not acceptable to me or my officials. It is something we are working through. It is a really frustrating space for all of us to be in. We have put extra resources into the team down at Johnstown Castle, changed our approach and built up the momentum we now have. When I first got this job on 23 January, 14,500 farmers were unpaid. That number is now down close to 5,000. As I have said, that is little comfort for those whose cases have not been resolved. We have divided the groups into cohorts and gone through it. The Senator said it was an IT issue but it is actually more complex than that. Different sets of criteria have caused problems and issues. In the short term, the easiest thing in the world would have been to take out a file and fix it with pen and paper but we would then have to do that every year and the issue would not be resolved. I did not want that. I wanted to make sure that, when a fix was put in place, it would fix it once and for all. We now have them all in measures. Of the 5,300-odd cases that are remaining, about 1,800 relate to rotational measures. They are all going to be dealt with in the same way with the same resolution. They are very close to being included in the next payment run or in the very near future because of the resolution.
The business team in Johnstown Castle has to identify the challenge and how to fix it, and the IT team needs to develop the software around that. Once it is developed it is there and the problem should not reoccur. Every year there will always be a certain number of individual problems, such as changing LPIS numbers for farmers. There are approximately 600 cases, particularly on ownership issues. Issues can arise with regard to change of ownership. Some of the challenges have been on our side in dealing with them. The fix is one which means the problem will not reoccur. It is to give this reassurance to farmers.
We have done farmers a disservice with the challenges we had at the beginning of the scheme. This is our way of explaining to people not involved in agriculture that farmers are up for the challenge of continuing to produce the top-quality food they do, and get a good income for it, and being up for doing their bit for the environment also. They signed up to ACRES in record numbers, which is why I am frustrated we got off to this bad start with the scheme. When these problems are resolved I want them to be fixed permanently so we can reinstill confidence in the sector in this regard. This is why we have put the extra resources and extra staff in place. The time it has taken us to work through these issues now means the solutions will resolve them and we will not have anything like a repeat of this. In the same way as with the start of GLAS, I remember being a member of the committee when it nearly fell off a cliff at the start. The system was overwhelmed as it was brand new. Once the issues were resolved early on they remained resolved and confidence grew in the system. That is where I want to be with ACRES.
When schemes go wrong we have to put our hands up and respond in real-time. From my perspective, I want to work with my officials. In the same way as I did with ACRES, I want to visit the section in the country, roll up the sleeves, understand where the problems are, look under the bonnet and identify where the blockages are. Members of the committee can contact me with individual representations and cases. I also have constituents. I am a farmer and all my neighbours are farmers. I tend to get individual cases very quickly and we cannot beat the power of an individual case to tell us where a problem is and how to work through it.
Large parts of the Department work seamlessly well. We have a payments section that handles €1.2 billion of EU payments. When things work well they are taken for granted and when they do not, rightly we are held to account. Where schemes go wrong we can put our hands up and respond to them in real-time. This is a very important part of it.
With regard to forestry, the delegated functions for this area are with the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Healy-Rae. I have no doubt he will come before the committee and will be able to talk all about forestry policy. We will closely together on issues such as the budget and making sure we strive to meet our very ambitious targets for forestry, just as I will work with the Minister of State, Deputy Grealish, on new market development and research and innovation, and with the Minister of State, Deputy Dooley, on fisheries. I know fisheries has its own dedicated committee now so Deputy Dooley probably will not be in here as much. We will work together as a team because at budget time we will all be fighting for the same thing and for those sectors. What our farmers, fishers and foresters do is very important. We have divided up the work and we are getting through it because it is very important for all of the people involved.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister. That is great and it is nice to hear he recognises when schemes do not go right. I want to go back to forestry. Is the Minister in agreement that we should be planting on peatlands and increasing the planting on peatlands?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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We have clear rules that we signed up to from a European perspective. It is a nuanced question. It is not a black and white issue. What are peatlands? There are different types of peatlands and beyond. We have set criteria that we have to meet now. From a forestry perspective, our current forestry programme is very different. When people speak about the mistakes of the past, and what happened in certain parts of the country with forestry programmes, we have a very different forestry programme now. It is very robust. It is built on the best scientific advice on the environment. Can this always be looked at and can certainly nuances and elements be looked at? Absolutely. Ultimately what we want to do is encourage. There is more than €1 billion in the forestry programme. I firmly believe there is a great opportunity for us to have this alternative income stream for farmers. This does not necessarily mean getting out of farming and into forestry. If some wish to do so that is fine and some may see it like that. Plenty of farmers see it as incorporating a certain element of the forestry programme into their farming activity which can supplement their income with a regular income from the forestry programme that is very attractive.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I remind members we invited the Minister in to speak on five particular topics. These are TB, the new CAP, nitrates, ACRES and GAEC 2. It is up to the Minister as to whether he will take questions on any other topic. These are the topics on which we are particularly focused.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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It is great to have the Minister attend along with so many officials. I welcome his opening remarks and it is positive to see progress on the ACRES payment scheme. Farmers put a lot of faith into the scheme and I would not like to see any more delays in it. Officials from the EU were in Leinster House last week to brief Members on the Mercosur deal. I raised with them several concerns that Irish farmers have about the negative impact they will face if Mercosur comes into effect. To be honest, I was shocked by their attitude towards these concerns. The European Commission representatives showed little or no concern about the negative impact Mercosur will have on our beef farmers. They acknowledged that beef farmers will suffer as a result. Incomes of farmers throughout the State are balanced on a knife edge. Suckler farmers earn an income of €9,500 on average. Flooding the EU with cheap South American beef would devastate Irish beef farmers. After the meeting last week it looks like Mercosur is a done deal. Is protecting the Irish beef sector a red line issue for the Government in talks on the Mercosur trade deal? Has the Government identified enough other like-minded EU member states to veto the deal if need be? Did the Minister meet the Commission officials last week? If so, did they also tell him that Mercosur will harm the Irish beef sector?
With regard to CAP, the Minister's colleague, Barry Cowen, raised concerns that there is a risk of a €250 billion shortfall if CAP funding is not increased. Is this a concern the Minister shares? Will he advocate for an increase in funding?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Newsome Drennan for raising these points. I acknowledge her comments on ACRES. As I have said already, I want to fix the problems once and for all to make sure they do not reoccur and that we learn from it for the design of future schemes. We have made progress but I will not be happy until the last case is resolved. I will continue to work full square to do this.
With regard to the Mercosur trade deal, I am happy to put my views on it on the record at the committee. I have done so in the House on numerous occasions. We have a programme for Government that explicitly references the Government's position on Mercosur and this has not changed. I have articulated it to Commission officials and at the AGRIFISH Council with regard to the concerns and the challenges. I did this as recently as last Monday in Brussels. I have also had bilateral meetings with my counterpart ministers for agriculture from other countries. Ultimately, the Tánaiste, Deputy Harris, as Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade has responsibility for all things trade but I would not be doing my job if I did not articulate the concerns of farmers and their views on this. I have said previously, with regard to farmers who have shown great ambition in the area of increased conditionality and requirements on the environmental side, that the impact of the various standards that could come in through Mercosur are very hard to accept. These are points I have articulated and I continue to engage with colleagues from like-minded countries. As the legal scrubbing of the text continues, there is still significant process to go through in Brussels, and trade ministers, the Council of Europe and the Parliament have a role to play in the process. I cannot be any clearer than I have been previously.
One of the biggest issues facing us in the agricultural sector is having a well-funded proper CAP. As I said in my opening statement, the structure is very important also. The structure has served us very well. What I have clearly articulated in the past is that just as with Commissioner Hansen's vision for agriculture, it is very understandable when other Commissioners and member states speak about increased demand on spending on defence and security. In particular, eastern bloc countries close to Russia have increased their spending in this area and expect Europe to follow suit.
I feel, as a peace project, which is what the EU is, that food security is a key part of the discussion on security and defence. You take food security for granted at your peril. We should not do that by allowing a cut in the overall budget there. What the overall budget looks like will influence the final CAP. The MFF is a key process that is happening at the moment. Where member states end up and what they contribute to the overall budget will determine how much is in the budget, with all the different demands that are on it.
I have been clear that we need a fully funded CAP that supports our farmers. The best way to do that is to stick with the separate fund and the two pillars that have traditionally served our sector so well over the years. They have supported our farmers, in the context of science and innovation, to deliver for the environment and produce top-quality food and drink. From that perspective, we are engaging across Government. The Taoiseach recently met Ursula von der Leyen. The Minister, Deputy Donohoe, has a key role to play to play on ECOFIN in engaging with colleagues about the MFF.
From my perspective, the AGRIFISH Council continues to advocate for that structure to be maintained. At last Monday’s meeting of the Council, which Commissioner Hansen attended along with the 27 ministers for agriculture from across the EU member states, there was effective unanimity across all the member states that a separate fund with two pillars should be maintained. Do not take for granted that all 27 member states are on the same page. We are agriculture ministers, so of course we will want our sector to be well funded and of course Commissioner Hansen will want that. I absolutely believe him when he says he wants that. There are other priorities and elements, but I believe we really strengthened his hand by having that level of unanimity following the discussion we had on the CAP during the private session at lunchtime. He has gone back to the Commission with that strong message to deliver but this is a challenging space, which is why no stone is being left unturned by Government.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding Mercosur, has the Government identified enough like-minded EU members if a veto is needed?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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We are talking to all like-minded countries.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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What feedback is the Minister getting? Is it good?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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Some countries are more vehement in their opposition than others. Some are still considering it. I have spoken to agriculture ministers who are vehemently opposed, but there is not a unanimous view across every government. I have spoken to some ministers for agriculture whose finance ministers might have a different role. In general, there are countries that have significant concerns. Then there are like-minded countries such as France, which is on the record about this. Sharing those concerns, talking through their strategic approach and how their governments are handling that is a key part of what we are doing.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Before moving on to Deputy Fitzmaurice, I remind the committee that we invited the Minister here to discuss tuberculosis, the CAP, nitrates, ACRES and GAEC 2 as priority issues.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That covers that. It covers everything.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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They are the priorities that were agreed by the members.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That includes all farming when you break down the headings.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Those are the priorities that were agreed by the members.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It covers all types of farming.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Best of luck to the Minister. I will do straight-shooting questions. I would appreciate if some of the Minister's officials were up beside him when I am asking questions, if possible.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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To clarify, the clerk asked them not to sit there. They are where they are for a reason.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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The Minister is aware that the Netherlands is also talking about looking for a nitrates derogation. The EPA sent a report to Europe. Can Mr. Massey or the Minister explain whether the report that has gone out to Europe is having a negative effect? Yes or no.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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No, it is not. The process started last December when we informed the Commission that we were seeking to apply for a derogation because our nitrates derogation, as it stands, ends at the end of this year. There are four key meetings this year. The first took place in March, which was to be addressed by the EPA. It put forward the case about the progress and the impact being made by our farmers and the role that they play in the process. Where our country is at and where the water levels are, the initial response from 2024 has shown those positive impacts.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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No is the answer.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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The next meeting is in June, and that is where we-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I am conscious of the clock. Have we supported other countries, including the Netherlands and all those that do not have derogations? Are they backing us?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I cannot speak for them all. I have spoken to them all and outlined our position. I understand their position. Nobody has told me they are not supporting us, but, obviously, countries will be coy about these things. I have no sense that anyone will openly block us.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Will the overall CAP budget in Europe be bigger? Will Ireland's budget be bigger to accommodate us if we are going to have to tweak it? Will we have pillar 1 and pillar 2? Will it be the same system?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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Apologies, I left my crystal ball at home, so I do not have an answer to that. We would all love to know those answers. We will know in the middle of July. These elements will be announced around 16 July. We are doing everything in our power. I cannot be clearer that I want to maintain the single fund and pillar 1 and 2. We want a fully funded CAP. Will we get that? I have clearly outlined all the other demands we know on other sides. No stone has been left unturned.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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If we do not, will the Government step in and make sure it is propped up?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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We could end up with so many different scenarios. If what was leaked about a single fund was to come about, that would be very different. I have made the point that it would be bad and would be a re-nationalisation of our system. It would undermine the Single Market. I will not get into predicting what might result from different outcomes, because there are so many such outcomes. All I can tell the Deputy is that we are making every effort across Government to put our best foot forward to maintain a fully funded CAP with the traditional structures that have served our sector so well.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Does the Minister or the Council have a veto on it if agreement is not reached?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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The first element of this is the MFF. What happens with the overall budget will determine what happens with the CAP.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Does the Minister have a veto?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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In the role that we play on the Council, does Ireland have a veto?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Does the Council have a veto?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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At prime ministerial level, there is, of course, a veto. The discussion will be about the MFF and the overall budget for the-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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When the CAP has been agreed, does the Minister have a veto on the Council?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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In the second half of 2026, I will the chair of the Council. We will be working on a basis of consensus. I am meeting every other minister bilaterally to understand their priorities and in order that they understand our priorities. Hopefully, before the end of 2026, under the Irish Presidency, I will be in a position to help get the CAP over the line by means of consensus.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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GAEC 2 is done and in. Is that fair to say? It would be advisable to do a video on GAEC 2 to explain in detail to farmers about where shoring or drainage is done, because there are many questions. The Minister is minimising it a bit. Last year, if I was out in a digger pulling a shore and a Department man came in, he could not do anything to me. This year, if I was pulling the same shore, there would be a penalty. That is what farmers need to know. If farmers had land shored previously, it would be worth having a video up on the Department's website to help them. The debate is over because it is in, and there is no point in me spending a heap of time talking about that. I think farmers deserve that.
The Minister said that by June the number of farmers involved in the issue relating to ACRES would be down to about 2,000 farmers. Does he accept that next Christmas would be the date by which the third cheque that farmers are supposed to get will be issued? Does he accept there is a problem? Portlaoise is able to throw out all the payments, in fairness, to 120,000 under the CAP, the suckler carbon efficiency programme, the sheep welfare programmes and so on. Since I came to the Dáil, there has been a problem with forestry in Wexford and with every environmental scheme so far. What is wrong and why defend something that is not getting fixed?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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We are making progress.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes, but it has been three years.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I have been in office for four months-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I know that. I am not blaming the Minister.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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-----and in those four months we have made progress. We are building up a level of expertise in that.
I am not minimising GAEC 2. If people in this room have a rake of constituents who come next year with fines, I will be proven wrong.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Then we will go-----
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I know, but the Deputy said I am minimising it. I cannot let the point go unchallenged because I am not. We negotiated a set of circumstances that means that farmers' day-to-day activity can continue. I am happy to take on board the Deputy's point of view on the video and clearer communications. Mike Moloney, a senior official in my Department, has attended a series of public meetings.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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The reason the information is important is that there is plenty of misinformation out there, and plenty of people are saying that.
As regards ACRES, I absolutely accept we do not want to be where we are. I said the vast majority-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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May I ask the Minister a question?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Or one of his officials behind him. Is it acceptable that, as a public representative, I rang three times in this area and was not rung back but got a press of a button every time? That is not acceptable for any TD to get, so-----
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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What I can say is that when people contact me and my officials, they get a response in a timely manner. I get back to people as best I can.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes, the Minister does. I am talking about the senior official behind him.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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Hold on now. The Deputy is personalising this against senior officials and personalising it about people who work in a certain section. I have been in Wexford. The Deputy singled out Wexford in his points. The people there are working under ferocious pressure with a very different environmental scheme, a very big change. We can have a discussion about that someday but we are dealing with something now. What I am giving a commitment on is-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Willie Murphy was excellent, by the way.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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The solutions there are being worked through and the issues are being fixed in order that they will not reoccur. That is where we are, and the officials are working night and day to make that happen.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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When will the farmer be paid this? After two years' or three years' waiting?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We must move on to the next speaker.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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We are working through them week by week. I said the vast majority will be done by the end of May. We are in that space, with over 90% paid, and we are working through the last, most complex cases. We will have this done and it will be done once and for all then.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Minister.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister. I am particularly pleased because I am from the same neck of the woods as he is, just outside Kilcullen, Narraghmore, County Kildare, so I know of his farming expertise and I note and acknowledge the great pride of his community on his appointment as Minister. I also acknowledge his officials here today. Before I ask one or two questions, I want to touch on a few things that he has touched on in his presentation. Before I do that, I want to say it is important that our engagement here is always robust but respectful. We have had many great debates in this committee in the last five years I have served on it, but at the end of the day, at heart, it is all agriculture - horticulture, the mushroom sector, forestry, equine. We sometimes forget equine. I like the point the Minister touched on in his speech that rural community and rural development go hand in hand with agriculture. Sometimes we forget that. I also acknowledge what he says in his opening statement, on the first page, that he intends "to communicate a fresh understanding of what it is farmers, fishers, foresters and the food industry contribute to Irish society and the economy". That is a very good start in kicking off a new relationship with a new Minister and a new committee.
I want to touch on some issues as regards CAP. The new CAP will be very important. The Minister said in his response earlier that Ireland is scheduled to assume the Presidency of the Council of the European Union in the second half of 2026. Of course, he will play a leading role in all that if he is still the Minister, as I hope he will be, and I do not anticipate he will not be, in chairing the Council meetings and steering relevant legislation to agriculture. That is important. As regards CAP, I received communication from CAP Network Ireland.
The Minister will also be aware that the United Nations has designated 2026 the International Year of the Woman Farmer, which is timely, and he will play a critical role in all this. That is a challenge. Why am I saying that now, in 2025? I am saying it because, like assuming the Presidency, there is a very significant lead-in time in this regard, and I want to use some of my time on this agriculture committee to really champion women in agriculture. I am particularly pleased to see some women now on this committee. We did not have many women on the previous committees. I warmly welcome that and I say that genuinely. I want to acknowledge two pieces of work. The first is Women in Irish Agriculture, a report commissioned by the National Rural Network. There is huge substance in all that. There is also the action plan in respect of the national dialogue on women in agriculture, which the Minister's Department will be very familiar with. I hope that they will be central themes of the Minister's Ministry because it is really important that we support women in agriculture and that we happen to have this United Nations designation in 2026. We will also have the Presidency in 2026. I ask the Minister not necessarily to answer that now but to take away that request or call or ask that he place a sharp focus on that. He might even initiate some engagement later in the year back to this committee to see how we can build stakeholder involvement in that and how we can put that to the fore of agriculture in our deliberations in the Oireachtas and on this committee because that is really important.
I do not want to say much more. I do not really have a lot of questions to ask at this juncture. I just wish the Minister well. Agriculture is vast and has many opportunities. I suggest that we give equal importance to our food production, our horticulture sector and our forestry sector because that is really important. The Minister might make a few comments on that before I come back with one other question to him.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator Boyhan. The people of Narraghmore, a little village in south Kildare, would be very proud of us both and of having two Members of the Oireachtas here. I thank the Senator for his warm comments.
The point he makes about women in agriculture is absolutely something we want to incorporate into our Presidency. To have the Presidency of the EU will obviously be a huge honour for us in Ireland, but with that comes a responsibility not just within the EU but also facing out from the EU. Women in agriculture is something I promoted at events when I was on trade missions in Mexico and other areas previously. One area where it is really important is Africa. We are associated with the G20 this year, which South Africa is holding. Incorporating the role of women in agriculture and linking it to food security in places like Africa is really important. Women in agriculture also features in our programme for Government, and there are key measures that I will look to progress over my term in the Department of agriculture to be able to enhance that role because I know how important it is. We have so many farms where women are the key driver of the farm but their name may not appear on the blue card or on the herd number and, therefore, their role is not as recognised. It is absolutely integral, however, and I know that from many circumstances. I am happy to work with the Senator and the other committee members on any ideas they might have for that or other elements of our Presidency as we build. The Senator is right that now is the time for planning it.
I was appointed as Minister for agriculture on 23 January. Four days later, I was at my first AGRIFISH Council meeting in Brussels and I was like the new boy in school being introduced to everybody. I realised that 16 meetings later, if I am still in the role, I will be in the chair. I have therefore had bilateral meetings with two or three ministers at every monthly meeting in order that by the time we get there, I will have met every single one of them and will know them well. I will be in Warsaw at the informal meeting in a couple of weeks' time, in June, as well. I will build those relationships, get to understand their priorities and ensure they can understand ours and, working together, hopefully deliver not only a very good CAP but also a very good Presidency that serves everyone well.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank the Minister for that response. I have just one other question. As regards the devolved functions, he has three Ministers of State and there has been much talk and speculation about the difficulties of the Government or Ministers coming together and getting devolved functions. Is he in a position to tell the committee when he will have signed off devolved functions for his three Ministers of State? Currently, their hands are slightly tied behind their backs. He knows their designated areas of responsibility in terms of their ministerial appointments, but they need this devolved function, statutory instrument or whatever is necessary. What can he tell us, and when does he think that will be complete as regards the three Ministers of State who are under his ultimate responsibility?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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It is a statutory instrument, which is a form of legislation. That has to go through the legal services section of our Department. It is a lengthy enough process. Obviously, with all legislation, you have to be sure that it is right, the Attorney General has to be happy with it and it has to be robust and not have any unintended consequences. A memo will go to the next Cabinet meeting next week. It will address the delegated functions and the roles of the Ministers of State, Deputies Healy-Rae and Grealish. I hope and anticipate the functions of the Minister of State, Deputy Dooley, to follow a week or two after that in terms of fisheries. I am in the hands of the officials on the legal services team as to how quickly they come through. I do not accept that the Ministers of State's hands are tied behind their backs. Everybody knows the Minister of State, Deputy Healy-Rae, has clear roles and responsibility, the same with the Minister of State, Deputy Dooley, who was with the Commissioner in Cork last week, and the same with the Minister of State, Deputy Grealish, who is doing very important work in the area of new market development and research and innovation.
That work continues. The paperwork issue will be resolved.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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As the Minister knows, cohesion is important, as is paperwork. Absolute clarity is important for him because there is a slight divergence in opinion among Ministers of State in the public media. That is just nuance. There are no-----
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I can absolutely guarantee we are ad idem. We are working well together. We are going to be a good team. I guarantee that enough work is going around for all four of us, with the number of issues that are coming through.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I do not doubt that. I wish the Minister and the three Ministers of State well in the work ahead.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is very welcome. I wish him the best of luck in his portfolio. It is the first time he has been here. I think it is the first time I have talked to him publicly since his appointment. I wish him the very best of luck.
I will talk to the Minister a little on the issue of TB. I also have a few things on the CAP, ACRES, the derogation and GAEC. Maybe the Minister will comment on those and we will then spend the latter half of my time on TB.
I know and appreciate he said that CAP is very much at the negotiation point at this stage, and it is the MFF that is being negotiated, but there is talk out there that there may not be a dedicated CAP budget within the MFF. It has to be fought tooth and nail that there will be, and we know that setting out. Let it be good, bad or different, we need to know how much or what it is. The CAP has to ring-fenced in the MFF and it has to be increased, if it all possible. There has to be a two-pillar CAP.
I am 60 years of age. As long as CAP has been there, I have heard about a simplified CAP, and making the CAP simpler and easier for farmers to work, but it has got more complicated every time. A simplified CAP does not make sense to me any more. It is one of the words in the English language that I struggle with, as I do with even talking about a simplified CAP now. We want a CAP that is well-funded, that is ring-fenced money from the MFF, that has two pillars and has a strong emphasis on food security. We cannot take our eye off food security. We are now way down the track of paying money for what is valueless. We have to start producing food or it will come back to haunt us.
The Minister answered the questions on ACRES. Payments should be made sooner rather than later. I was asked to ask the Minister when people will be paid where payments are outstanding. He said he hoped it would be by June. Will he clarify, if and when the Department catches up and everybody is paid, it will then stay the pace? This is so there will not be a fall-off again in every subsequent year for the next two years, with payments that are left in the initial scheme.
I will comment on the derogation. The derogation is in excess of 170 kg N/ha. Not any derogation will do. We are talking 250 kg N/h here. That has to be loud and clear out there. I have talked to people in the industry and the business, who are a bit worried that the eye is being slightly taken off the ball in respect of the derogation, from our perspective. I know that is because we are re-forming after an election and everything, and no committees were active or whatever, but they are fearful that we are beginning to think that it is coming anyway and we are taking our eye off the ball on it and complacency-----
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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You cannot say that.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I share some of that concern but I guarantee it is not on our side.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I am asking if there is any reason for their opinions and whether the Minister can guarantee that there is not. As I said, it has to be a derogation of substance. We cannot set ourselves up to come back saying we got a derogation if it is not at the 250 kg N/ha mark, because that is no good to people that are out there.
On the GAEC, I compliment Michael Moloney and give him my sympathies. He is playing a blinder as he goes around the country. He is telling it as it is but nobody is listening to him or believing him, for some unknown reason. Any calls I am getting on GAEC 2 I am getting late at night or early in the morning after a meeting from people who have concerns. Their concerns are the opposite to what they were told by Michael Moloney the night before. I do not know why they will not believe him. I agree with Deputy Fitzmaurice that the Department needs to come out with media or video of some form to put this to bed once and for all.
I will give one example. A number of people have contacted me to say they cannot plough and will not be able to plough GAEC 2 ground. You can plough to 30 cm. I won an all-Ireland ploughing award. The ploughing depth for world ploughing is 15 cm. Any lad who thinks he cannot plough because he cannot plough any deeper than 30 cm should leave the plough in the shed. That is the truth. It is misinformation. Why is there misinformation? The Department has to get on top of it and get the word out there once and for all. People believe the man who knows what he is talking about, not the people who want to spread the bad news about this and scaremonger on it. It is annoying at this stage. As I said, I am batting questions nearly every Thursday and Friday night on this, after there has been a meeting somewhere. It does not matter what Michael Moloney tells them. They will still ring me the next day because they heard some other lad saying X, Y and Z. The Department needs to get out there and bury that one.
Will the Minister comment on those issues? I will then move on to TB. I cannot see a clock.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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There are four minutes.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I do not think there is any clock on us at all, Senator.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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We will keep her lit. I thank the Senator. He and I were members of this committee previously. We soldiered together, so I look forward to working with him in the term ahead.
Simplification has probably been the most overused and misused word in previous schemes. The truth is we talked about simplification and then it seemed every new scheme we got was more complex than the last. On the simplification package, and there was a headline in the paper this week stating that I was having a go at the Commission in Brussels, I just clearly outlined in Europe that what is in the simplification package will not really benefit farmers much. There is stuff there for small farmers but, by EU averages, we do not have very many small farms or very many large farms. We have that in-the-middle, 30 ha, average-sized farm, or a little more than that. That is the context for the measures on simplification. Sometimes, simplification is proposed from Brussels that inadvertently leads to more complex knock-on activity. I am determined. I am a farmer. I understand where the issue is. I am determined that we deliver real simplification that actually matters and makes life easier for farmers, and do that in a more streamlined way. I cannot be any clearer that the dedicated budget for Pillar 2 is a top priority for us. I continue to work on that.
I again reassure the Senator, as I have other members, that it is an absolute top priority that the solutions being put in place now for ACRES mean the issues occurring on the scale they have been will not reoccur, and that these problems will be fixed once and for all. It is the least we can promise farmers. I continue to see that through.
I share the sentiment that complacency is coming in regarding the derogation. I got the impression that what the Senator said was directed at me in Government. I guarantee it is not-----
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I cannot be any clearer. Of all of the challenges, and we talk about ACRES, TB and different things, the clear priorities this year are nitrates and CAP and, in time, generational renewal, when I get the report back from the commission on generational renewal. Nitrates and CAP are the two top priorities. When other problems arise, we will deal with them, but we have to get through on these as well.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I am at a disadvantage in that I have no clock. I do not know how I am fixed for time.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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There are six and a half minutes.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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The nitrates derogation is absolutely critical. There is no shortage or complacency on my part. I am concerned.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I want to get on to TB. I am getting close on time.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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There is misinformation on GAEC 2. The Senator asked why there is misinformation. It did not come from me. It is on social media. It is out there-----
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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-----and it is easier for people to believe words like "designation" and stuff. We will do videos all the Senator wants, but there is only so much I can do, if people keep spinning a line that is not true and people want to believe that. Michael Moloney is the most believable man I know so-----
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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The proof of the pudding will be in the eating for all of us.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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There is one minute remaining.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The Cathaoirleach will have to give me a bit more because I was at a disadvantage. We all know where TB is at the minute and how long it has been going on. I have a couple of questions. The cost to farmers is enormous at this stage. The compensation payments need to keep up to speed with the increase in the price of cattle. The valuation I am told people are getting if they have a pure red reactor is nowhere near what that animal might be worth. We have to look at the compensation.
Putting up risk category on mart boards cannot happen in any circumstances. The people who have had reactors have lost enough money. They have lost enough emotionally and financially by the time they get to the mart. If there is a risk category for their animal, they will get less. They will be discriminated against and it is guaranteed they will get less for those animals. That is another loss to them because there are people out there who will target them. There are people out there who know how to make a handy buck. They will give the nod and wink around the ring and will pay less because of the risk category. It is guaranteed. That cannot happen.
I am a promoter of vaccination. We have been doing the same thing for the past 70 years. We all know about the definition of doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. It will not happen. We have to start putting money into and really concentrate on vaccination. It has already been developed in the UK. It is just a matter of whether an animal comes up in a test as being vaccinated or a reactor.
I have a slightly different question that is related to TB. Are we going down the same road with bovine viral diarrhoea, BVD? A testing programme over three years came in, with an option for another three years, which is six years. That was 12 years ago. The testing fee is now €4.20 a head for the farmer. If there are people here who will still be alive in 70 years, will we still be talking about BVD testing that was introduced for a short period? We need to know are we going down the same road.
Will the Department put a serious focus on vaccination? It is the only way out of this problem, as far as I am concerned. If we can vaccinate a badger, we can vaccinate a cow.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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We can vaccinate cows, but the problem thereafter is there is no way to tell the difference between cattle that have been vaccinated or are infectious-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Can we invest in overcoming that problem?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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We have research going on.
Hopefully, that research will give us a result at some stage in the medium term rather than the short term. We are invested in that research, as is Britain and we will work with the British on that. Vaccination is not the answer for us because it will impact our trade. We cannot trade animals where we cannot prove they do not have TB. We are in complete agreement on the challenges of TB. I do not agree on everything the Senator said. There is a responsibility on me, with the new set of measures and reset that I bring in, to ensure I do not leave a gap for this infection to seep through.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I will finish on this point. We have to instil hope again among farmers. I know what farmers think. They think there is an industry built around TB and there are too many people who do not want it to end. I want it to end. We cannot, in good conscience, allow what is happening to continue. It cannot be business as usual. I guarantee that the set of proposals I hope to get consensus on with the farm organisations, with which we have been continuing to work back and forth since last February, can give hope of a roadmap out of this for the 6% of farmers who have this issue and ensure that the 94% of farmers who do not have it do not get it.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister might forward me an answer on BVD.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Chair, you gave an extra two minutes, so you should give everyone else extra time.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Bear with me now. Will the Minister forward a response on BVD? We are working off the stopwatch instead of the clock above.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Everyone else was given two minutes extra. You have to be fair, Chair.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We will have one speaker.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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There is a problem with the clock and we have had to use stopwatches instead. It is a purely technical issue.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The clerk to the committee has been using timing contributions using a phone stopwatch.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for coming to the committee so promptly following our invitation. I appreciate that.
I will focus on the agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES. There are around 6,000 farmers still not paid under the scheme, which represents around 15% of all applicants. We are halfway through year 3 of a five-year ACRES. The lack of payments coming through is seriously eroding farmer confidence in the scheme. I acknowledge almost €500 million has been paid out - that is to be welcomed - but there are serious challenges in drawing down the funding. I note the Department spent €65 million on IT contractors in 2023 and 2024 and that figure does not include internal spending on IT. There are massive issues around farmers with cash crop commonages receiving payment. Are we getting value for money for that €65 million? What was it spent on? I have spoken to an awful lot of farmers recently who changed their farming structure to a registered farm partnership or company and they continue to meet payment issues across all the schemes due to IT functionality issues.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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As a newly elected TD, I wish Deputy Cleere the best of luck in the term ahead. I agree that challenges around ACRES are eroding confidence. It is my job to restore confidence in this system. I will do that by systematically ensuring the processes we put in place fix these problems once and for all and regain confidence in a scheme that has delivered almost €500 million to farmers since 2023. That is not an insignificant amount of money. ACRES is definitely paying a lot more than the previous scheme at a farmer level. Farmers are doing the work on that level.
On the Deputy's point on IT systems, we need to reflect on the design of schemes in the context of the next CAP and in the role I will have, as Minister, in Ireland's EU Presidency. When we get to the point that member states have autonomy and flexibility, we must examine how we design schemes, how complex we make them, how user-friendly they are for farmers and their advisers and what they deliver for the environment because they have to deliver. The results-based system does more in that regard. When we are designing this scheme we need to make sure we think it through to the end and ask how hard it will be to administer. Having 80,000 or 90,000 scorecards creates a lot of administration.
The IT teams are being worked extremely hard because we have designed new schemes. We want to maintain the existing CAP and the separate structure with two pillars. I made the point on Monday at the agriculture Council that we should not tear up the CAP completely. There is a need for stability and certainty for our farmers. The elements that work well are bedded in. We design all these new computer systems for certain schemes. We should not throw out the baby with the bathwater and change everything just for the sake of it. It is about getting the balance right.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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This is the first year since 1995, when REPS was available, that farmers have had no option to join a stand-alone environmental scheme because ACRES is now a closed shop. Farmers who are not in ACRES have no viable option to join an environmental scheme that would help boost their annual income and provide lasting environmental benefits. Are there any plans to rectify this?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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We had 44,000 farmers apply for the first REPS. As a Minister for State in the Department at the time, I was very supportive of trying to reopen that scheme because there was increased demand. There was a big budgetary ask in that respect. The additional farmers who applied, bringing the total number of applicants to ACRES to 54,000 or thereabouts, were all facilitated. I have to manage my budget. We are working through the challenges in respect of the 5,000 remaining farmers but the vast majority of applicants, more than 90%, have been paid and are in the system, carrying out their actions and doing well. I have to reflect on the budget I have to see how I manage it for the remainder of the year in terms of the existing ACRES.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Government completely opposes the single fund approach and the Minister is on record as saying the integrity of CAP has to be maintained. I welcome that and the fight for a stand-alone CAP. The simplification of CAP is fair. If we do not get a stand-alone CAP, will the Government step in and directly support our vulnerable sectors if the EU does not do so under the next CAP programme?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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This brings me back to an earlier answer. There are so many moving parts here. As to speculating about whether the final MFF will be a certain structure or a different structure and what the Government response to that would be, we are still very far away from that. I assure the Deputy that the Government, including the Tánaiste, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance, is determined to fight as hard as we can for the existing structure with two pillars and a single fund. I am on the record articulating my concern around the re-nationalisation of agriculture spending and the undermining of the CAP. That is our first focus as part of the MFF. We will engage with Commissioner Hansen to try to do that and work across government to make that happen. There will be a point in the future when I will have to make key decisions on what a new CAP will look like. I will do so in consultation with the committee and there will be plenty of debates on that in the future.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We hold the European Presidency in the second half of 2026 which is a huge opportunity for Ireland to put its best foot forward. I welcome the engagement the Minister has had with our European counterparts. How much engagement has the Minister had in the last number of months with our European counterparts?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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The AGRIFISH Council meets once a month. It is probably the most intense Council meeting along with ECOFIN. There are few Irish Ministers who have to go out there every month. I do not miss an opportunity to engage and get to know the officials. There are people in the cabinet of Commissioner Hansen and others who I knew previously in different roles. You build those relationships and get out there. We are a member of the European People's Party, EPP, Group, which meets prior to the AGRIFISH council. Eleven or 12 of the agriculture ministers are part of that group. My officials are constantly working and we have the Department officials based in Brussels in the Permanent Representation of Ireland to the European Union. We continue to work across those levels. As well as the CAP, we engage on issues such as nitrate levels. I met Commissioner Roswall on Monday as well as Commissioner Hansen to discuss policies.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has segued perfectly into the last topic I will raise, namely, nitrates, which is a huge issue and a serious threat. I have spoken to farmers throughout my constituency and the country about the struggles they are facing. My view is that the Government must be prepared to go into the trenches on this one. We have to try our best to convince the European Commission and the other 26 member states that Ireland has to retain the derogation. If it is not retained, it will have a devastating and lasting impact on dairy farmers. Carbon dioxide emissions have exploded following a century of industrialisation, urbanisation and massive transport expansion. The damage cannot be reversed in a few short years. Huge progress has been made but common sense must prevail. The farming and food industry are the backbone of rural Ireland. That is a major distinction between Ireland and the larger EU countries. Schools, the GAA and other sports, shops and businesses all depend on farming and the food industry flourishing. We accept the climate impact on the environment.
There must be a balanced perspective when legislating for corrective measures. I will be imploring the Minister as a representative of the Irish Parliament to fight as hard as he can for the nitrates derogation to be extended.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I know the time is up, but I wish to respond to the Deputy. There will be no shortage of ambition from my side in getting the best possible nitrates derogation for our country, including to retain one for next year and to ensure it serves our purposes well. This is absolutely critical not just for the 7,000 derogation farmers who currently avail of it, but for all of our rural economy: the farmers, tillage farmers and others beside them who will be impacted by land availability. It is my top priority. I can guarantee the Deputy that I have maximum ambition in that area and in that fight.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister and all of his officials for attending our first meeting. I wish him well in his journey over the next number of years and with the negotiations on the upcoming CAP deal, which is what I wish to focus on first. One of the things that is of great concern is the notion that we could see a situation where we do not have Pillar 1 and Pillar 2 again but have amalgamation, and the threat that would be to the fund overall. The Minister mentioned in his reply to other contributors that among the agriculture Ministers there is unanimity that this is what they want to see. Have we done any work among the finance ministers and trade ministers to try to establish where we stand in respect of that with all the other governments? The Minister makes a very valid point that in many countries across Europe agriculture is not as big a priority as it is in Ireland. It does not hold the same weight in those countries because it is not as big an industry, or does not contribute as much to their economies. We certainly would like to hear what work has been done in this regard, particularly when we look at the situation with the MFF, which is going to be the key. A lot of that is going to be determined by finance and trade ministers rather than agriculture ministers, with all due respect.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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No, absolutely. I thank the Deputy for his sentiments and wish him well in his role as Sinn Féin's spokesperson on agriculture in the term ahead. The point the Deputy raised is a very valid one in that the MFF is the biggest part of this now because it is the next decision to be made. Once that decision is made, we move on to the next bit. In terms of my efforts to get the best CAP deal possible for our farmers, I can reassure the Deputy that I have the full support of my Government colleagues. In terms of what are we doing at a level beyond my role on the Agriculture and Fisheries Council, the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, will bring a memo to the Cabinet in the next week or two outlining our approach on the MFF. The Deputy can be absolutely assured that the Government has it as a top priority to retain the CAP, the two pillars and that single fund.
As a country that is now a net contributor to the overall EU budget, there are many things that we pay into that we do not get the same return out of. Of the receipts that the Exchequer gets back from what we pay into Europe, we get 75% of them back through the CAP. If the CAP is reduced or lessened, it hurts the overall economy in terms of how much of that return we get. This is important to us and our overall economy, not just our farmers, but that rural economy piece. Therefore, the Deputy can be assured that the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, and beyond are supporting my work on the Agriculture and Fisheries Council and that it is-----
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that. I do not expect the Minister to commit Government funding to a future CAP or to fill the gap. At this point it would be premature to so and I absolutely understand-----
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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We will have many discussions about the nuts and bolts of what we can do flexibility-wise locally but that is a long way off.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Farmers out there would like to understand that the Government has their back in respect of what deal we get out there. They want to know that if the deal is not everything we want - usually there is a bit of compromise and it may not be everything we want in every area - the Government will at least have a commitment to make every effort to ensure the family farm is protected along with all of the environmental schemes we have. There have been many discussions about ACRES, and the failings in all of that, and all of difficulties that come with it. Any future schemes that come out must be schemes for which, in some way or other, the work is done in advance. My problem is that every time a scheme comes out, there seems to be the same problem: an IT problem, a problem with this or a problem with that. In fairness to the officials in the Department that all of us deal with on a regular basis - we all ring the hotlines to try to get issues sorted for people - they do their very best. Every time a scheme comes out, it always seems to have these shortcomings, failings and problems. Can we work to ensure that cannot be the situation in the future, for example through the development of future proofing? No matter what scheme it is, we must have the IT systems in place and we must have the advance technology to ensure we do not run into these problems as we move forward.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for his points. First, he sought reassurance that the Government will have farmers' backs in the overall funding package for the CAP. Any past performance is a fair indication of future action. Previous Governments that I have been a part of have had the backs of farmers. We are currently in a CAP that is historically the best funded from an Exchequer level as well. If we look at the likes of ACRES, we see that €500 million was paid to farmers in 2023. That is a significant amount of money gone out into our rural economy, notwithstanding the challenges. I will touch on that part of the Deputy's question in a moment.
I am determined to address the simplification piece. I can see how it happens. I can see that we are trying to maximise the return of European money and the amount of money we can get for our farmers, both nationally and European-wise. Therefore, we try to meet where the money is. That is effectively what happened. We conveniently forget that when Britain left the EU, it left a 10% hole in the overall EU budget. If the Deputy remembers when Phil Hogan was the Commissioner, he will recall the predictions of doom with a 30% cut in the overall CAP. At the last minute, Mr. Hogan was able to get environmental money to top it up so it did not effectively get cut. It meant the environmental emphasis with CAP - the greening of CAP - continued apace because that is where the money came from. There is an element of having had to design our schemes to follow where the money is so that we get the money back. In some instances, we have done that well.
There are other European countries where farmers cannot access their eco schemes. They cannot draw down all their CRISS money because their member state designed it in such a complex way. We do not have that problem here. Our eco schemes are fully drawn down and accessed by our farmers, and so is the CRISS front-loading money. I do not expect this committee to focus on the things that work well. Obviously that is not the job of Opposition politicians, in particular. It is my job to defend the system. We work within the constraints we have. I can absolutely assure the Deputy that simplification is something I want to deliver in this time. First and foremost, the focus is on getting the overall package right.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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In the short time we have left, I wish to go back to GAEC 2. I know it has been discussed at length. The issue that farmers have - what they fear - is that we are looking at a situation where we are going in the direction of nature restoration, with rewetting and all of that. The fear they have is that this is the direction in which this is going. Why else would land be labelled in that way - I hesitate to use the word "designate" - if there is not some plan for this in the future? It might not be something that is being talked of now or being rolled out now, but farmers have a real fear that it could be something that will come back to bite them in the future. Can the Minister at least show them that if it is not something they can fear, it is something that can be an opportunity for them in the future? If there are to be changes, will they be properly compensated for those changes? If they have to reduce production or reduce the use of that land in some way, will they be properly compensated for that in a suitable way as we move forward? As the Minister said in his opening statement:
It is intended to protect wetlands and peatlands. EU regulations require all member states to have a standard in place from the start of this year.
When people see that, it immediately puts it into that frame. The Minister understands this. It is why people-----
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I totally do. It is why it has got conflated. I am going to separate those two questions out because answering them together will only conflate it further in people's mind that we pay them extra. On nature restoration, we have said that if farmers want to manage land with a lower-intensity management approach in the future - voluntarily - we will find a way to reward them financially for doing that if that is what they wish to do. That is very different. GAEC 2 is a baseline conditionality of BISS. We had loads of baseline conditionality for previous single farm payment schemes that no longer exist. There was a time when the baseline conditionality for the single farm payment was around registering cattle and tagging. That does not exist anymore; it changed. GAEC 2 may not still be a baseline conditionality here. It is only relating to BISS. It will not impact planning permission. It does not impact anybody ploughing or doing anything else. That is all very clear. I will continue to say that. Just as ACRES is being fixed next year so that we do not have thousands of cases back here in difficulty next year, like we have now, I can assure the Deputy that I will not be in here in a year's time with the committee giving me loads of examples of farmers who have fallen foul of GAEC 2 because their day-to-day activity can continue. I can give the Deputy my word on that.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am delighted to speak here today. I welcome the Minister. He came in at such short notice. Fair play to him. He is doing a very good job. I welcome the officials. As a farmer, I have seen huge changes down through the years.
Whatever scheme is coming out, will the Minister please make it easy for us to fill up the forms? It has been detrimental and the Department has been very difficult. It has been cruel on me as a farmer and all my colleagues in making it so difficult. The proof is that, when I started off in farming, I would have had an agricultural adviser whom I could ring for advice. Now, however, there is nothing that farmers can do on their own without having agricultural advisers and everything. Why does the Department make it so complicated? I have had a long number of years storing up this stuff and now I have the opportunity to ask on behalf of farmers. It is serious. It is not fair to farmers.
Something else I do not like is the hanging of a little carrot over us - if we do this, our single farm payment will be cut. My mother, Lord have mercy on her, would start off in September or October, or whenever she would get away it, by saying to us, "If you are bold, Santy will not be coming". That went on the whole way until after Christmas. The Department is the very same with us. The Minister is laughing, but it is not a laughing matter. An awful lot of farmers out there take huge umbrage to that, and they are right to. I am one of them. Anyway, that is enough of that for the moment.
I know that the Minister has a large task in front of him. I have said that to him publicly and privately. We have the four schemes: CAP; Mercosur; the nitrates directive; and the derogation. On a good day, we have problems with every one of them and trying to get them over the line. I accept that, but we have to ensure that we make the Minister accountable and that we try to do everything we can.
On water quality, I am a dairy farmer and the situation is improving hugely. The last two tests done by the EPA showed great results. We are on the up. We have spent hundreds of thousands of euro improving yards to improve water quality and all that, so the Minister has a good case to make there.
Regarding CAP, there is no room. I am sorry to say it, but there is zero tolerance. I do not want to put pressure on the Minister, but I had to. We want Pillar 1 and Pillar 2. The multi-annual financial framework, MFF, will not be good for the Irish farmer. It will not be good for me. If one reads into the MFF, it will not be good for Irish farmers, and the Minister knows that. I will give him all the support in that regard.
On GAEC 2, we get nervous when they start telling us what to do, which I will come to in a second. I welcome that the Minister said that there would be no fines under GAEC 2. That is what he said in his opening address, so we will hold him to that.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is paraphrasing now-----
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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No, I am not paraphrasing. I hope we have it taped. Go back. That is exactly what he said. The Minister did say it and I will quote him for the next-----
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy will not have constituents back here next year who have fallen foul.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The Minister did say it. The Minister said there would be no fines. I attended the meeting in Athlone. There are all different views out there. Farmers were coming out of that meeting terrified of what was going to happen. Traditionally in farming, we all knew the land like the back of our hands. We knew what was the wet field and what day of the year we could go out. Farmers had to get used to being told when to spread dung, when to spread slurry and when we could go out. We can go out on a wet day if we like because it is within the calendar of farming. It would take a huge generational mindset to change what farmers did down through the years because it was handed down from generation to generation and they knew every spot in a field. This is why there was so much resentment at changes. People found it, and still find it, difficult. Parts of it have been good, but other parts have been very difficult.
On tillage, there was €32 million to be paid to tillage farmers as part of budget 2025, which is €40 per hectare. Is that ring-fenced for the next five years? Tillage is likely to decline this year again. This is an important point for the officials here. The numbers of farmers in tillage is falling, which the Department can see. It was 334,450 ha. That went down and it is going to go down again, yet the Minister is saying that we are going to have an increase of 360,000 ha. Unless the Minister puts something in there very quickly, then he is not going to meet his climate targets. He has not a hope.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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What was the question the Deputy had on funding?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps the Minister can get one of the officials to answer.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry. I just missed the question.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Is the €32 million to be paid to the tillage sector as part of the budget this year, which is €40 per hectare, going to be ring-fenced for the next five years?
The crop diversification rules appear to be having a negative impact on tillage. This is one for the officials that came up with this. Many farmers are reducing their crop areas. We can see that every day. They will not have to comply with these rules, though, as it now appears the rules are not required in Ireland and, therefore, there should be leniency for sectors that are in trouble. Will the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine try to remove that rule from the CAP?
In case my time runs out, I want to move on to TB.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has just over a minute.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The Cathaoirleach was being flexible earlier on. I will be as quick as I can. Someone else says I have two minutes.
TB is the most pressing thing in the mind of every one of my farming colleagues at the moment. Every farmer out there is terrified of a TB test. I went years and years and we never had that at home. One would be afraid of it, but it was more the nuisance of having to get the cattle to have a bath and all of that. People talk about the mental strain on farmers, but this is it. I am telling the Minister that this is it. There was never, ever such an outbreak of TB. I say this to the officials. It has all gone wrong. It is like a runaway train. There is the mental strain for farmers of having 60 cows go down and not being allowed an independent blood test. The Minister will have to roll out something. He is going to have to help farmers and he is going to have to put their minds at ease. More importantly,-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy must leave some time for the Minister to answer.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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No. More importantly for the Minister, I have here the form for a bullock that went down. The Minister is a farmer. There is the result: €3,685, which was what the valuer had put in for the bullock. The bullock was brought to the factory and it was at 810 kg live weight. The value the Department negotiated was €5.32 per kilo. That animal showed no lesions whatsoever, they checked-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is leaving no time for the Minister to respond.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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No, I will finish on this one. If the Minister had been selling that animal out of his farm, he would have got €8 per kilo that day. That was the price. It came to €3,752. Look at the value. In fairness to the man who valued it, he was only €70 out. I put it to the Minister that there is the problem. The Minister owes the man named on that form €785. I want to make the point here today-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy,-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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-----you are leaving no opportunity to the Minister to respond.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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No, this is important. That man got a back saying "Please find enclosed check for €3,000 for your animal". The man lifted the phone, rang the Department and said, "I am owed €785"-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you Deputy.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Does the Minister know what the Department told the man?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It said that the ceiling was €3,000 and that it would pay no more.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Please, Deputy. Stop.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I will suspend the meeting unless the Deputy stops-----
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I want the Minister to answer that question for me, please.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The meeting is suspended.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Sorry? I did not even hear you
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The meeting is suspended.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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You were called on to stop.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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Regarding the points made about the CAP and how we support farmers, simplification is very important. I, too, was a child who was threatened, around October time, with Santa not coming, but he always came in December. We are delivering €2 billion of supports to farmers every year and that is not simple. This money comes with conditionality. It is money that needs to be audited. We need to be able to account for it being spent as it is supposed to be spent and the type of deals we sign up to. I understand that creates a huge bureaucracy and frustration. It is my job to try to make sure that in understanding the bureaucracy and frustration for the farmer we make it as easy as possible to get the money to farmers. This supports them in the work they do producing top quality food and also in the efforts they are making regarding environmental sustainability, improving water quality, etc. We have huge ambition in the area of water quality.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Minister to forward to the committee the remainder of his answer and we will move on to the next speaker.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I will. I am in the committee's hands. Many topics were raised, including GAEC 2, and I agree about the emotion of it.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I need to give the other speakers their opportunity.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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Okay. I am in the Cathaoirleach's hands.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Will the Cathaoirleach allow the Minister to answer the question about the man who is owed money, no?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Healy-Rae is next.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I thank the Minister and his officials for coming before the committee. I wish our new Cathaoirleach well and indeed all the members of the committee. It would be nice if we could all work together and help each other. It is in the best interests of farmers out there that we do so. I have a lot of issues to raise. There is no clock so I do not know how to judge the time. ACRES-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, just to clarify, we are timing it on the stopwatch.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I cannot see that, but anyway.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I will remind you at one minute remaining.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Regarding the ACRES scheme, what I am being told by all the people I am trying to get payments for is that the system is broken down. We have been involved in plant hire and school bus hire and everything. If something breaks down, it has to be fixed, or else it has to be got rid of. This system has been operating for two years now and it should have been streamlined and fixed long before now, before the Minister ever took office. It is not acceptable that people are waiting for last year's money in the middle of this year. It is going to throw their taxes into disarray. That is one of the issues. I am asking the Minister to pay the people. The Department is getting the money and it has it to pay it out. I cannot understand what is wrong.
The issue of TB is surely a serious one. I am in the same position as Deputy Aird on this. I know farmers who went down last October and November with herds of milking cows and whatever they got at that time. One farmer had 42 cows and when he went to replace them in April, he could only buy 28 for what he had got, because the price of cattle and everything else has gone up. That man's income is way down for this year and the years to come because he cannot get back to the level at which he was. Heifers and the whole damn lot are gone. It has to be recognised, at this stage, that TB is by and large spread by deer and badgers. There is no control. We have 27,000 acres of a national park in Kerry. They are roaming wild out of that park, day in and day out. They are hurting people on the road and they are making smithereens of cars. It is absolutely terrible.
On top of that, is the Department going to continue the practice of buying up farms against young farmers in Kerry? Three were bought last year, against local farmers. Some €440,000 was paid for a farm in Kilgarvan that was only worth a small bit more than €200,000. This was done against local farmers who were trying to expand. I ask the Minister to desist from this practice.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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The National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, or the Government.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy has the wrong Minister here for the national parks.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, stick to the agenda.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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All right, that is grand. I will keep going. Pillar 1 and pillar 2 of the CAP have to be retained in order to keep farmers going. We have an awful problem. The Minister said there are 133,000 farmers in the country. How many will there be next year or the year after? Many young, would-be farmers cannot see themselves continuing the slavery and racket that their parents went through to build it up and to keep the thing going. They will go to Australia for an easier life with a five-day week. We must appreciate the farming community more and appreciate the food it produces. We have some other lady in the Oireachtas telling us we should not tamper with foxes and to leave them alone. Does the Minister know the damage they have done to sheep farmers? If a ewe has two lambs it can only defend one, so the foxes take the other one. That is what is happening with the foxes; they have the place overrun. We are supposed to say nothing about badgers, deer and foxes.
Regarding fishing, the Department says we now have around 2,000 vessels. Are fishers still being asked to go for the scrappage scheme? In the 1600s, the fishing industry was developed by the British. We seem to have let it slip. This does not just affect the fishers, but their communities as well.
To go back to the issue of TB, testing has been done here for about 46 years and we seem to be in exactly the same place. I hope the Department is consulting farmers. I heard the Minister say he will make a decisive decision, and that is what is needed, but farmers need to be compensated. It is absolutely terrible when I hear there is a proposal to put up on the screen when cattle are being sold that this farmer has gone down once, twice, three times or whatever, or so many years ago. That will give the buyers an advantage and those cattle will be bought up and sent to the factory or wherever. The price that the farmer who is selling will get will be reduced. At the same time, the animal will be used in the same way as if the farmer got top price for it. I ask the Minister to be fair about it, because farmers on the side of the road-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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One minute left, Deputy.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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-----and through the hills and glens of Kerry cannot live on fresh air. They need to get properly recompensed for the Trojan work they do, in spite of all the adversity. I ask the Minister to answer on the important points I have raised. We need more time to discuss them, but I thank the Minister for coming in today. I would appreciate whatever answers he can give me.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising points on a wide range of topics. I agree with his sentiment of wanting to work together. I want to work with the members of the committee. We will have many ups and downs and many issues that will be challenging for the sector, but we will meet them head-on and try to deal with them as best we can. The Deputy compared ACRES to fixing broken machinery and said that if something is broken it should be fixed. The challenge with ACRES is that more than one fix was needed. There were individual interventions needed across a range of cohorts. To go back to the Deputy's analogy, a number of things were broken in the machine. We are fixing one thing at a time, but fixing it permanently so that it does not come back again. I recognise that it is hugely frustrating for those impacted but, in terms of the interim payment, I know that request was made this year. I did not want to have any intervention this year. When we were up to a scale that we had built up momentum and were doing weekly payment runs, I did not want anything that would undermine the payment of the balancing payment to the 45,000 farmers who were not affected. We have been in the space of working through the cohorts and paying farmers on a weekly basis. Of the cohort of 5,300, a total of 1,100 of which are from 2023, when we resolve those in the coming weeks, they will get knocked off the 2024 list as well because they are all in the one and being counted as double. We are getting there and making progress. The commitment I gave is that those solutions are permanent.
Regarding TB, farmers have an option to take the book value at the time.
They are compensated at the value of the animal on the date of its reactor - I will come back to Deputy Aird as well - and there is a maximum amount on that. However, if we wait for months for a valuation, we have seen an increase in the price of beef, which has been a challenge.
In response to the points the Cathaoirleach and Deputy Aird made about compensation, my abiding determination is to make sure fewer farmers are in this position and that those farmers have a way out of the mess they are in. We could spend all day talking about compensation and individual measures. The points the members made are valid, but they will not resolve the problem. I am determined that we fix this problem once and for all.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We need to give the other speakers an opportunity.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister and his officials for coming today and for the presentation at the start of the meeting.
I use the word "simplify" a lot. We are trying to encourage young people to get involved in farming, but with the way things are going at the moment with the different schemes and the red tape and criteria around them, it is not encouraging them. We need to look at that going forward. There are a lot of young people who would love to get involved in farming. If we can support and help them, we will encourage them to get involved.
I compliment the Minister on what he is doing regarding the payments for ACRES since he took office. It was a serious issue last year, before that, and in the early part of this year, but he has brought it from more than 13,000 applications down to 5,000. Fantastic work has been done and I hope those 5,000 - probably some of which have issues on their own side - will be sorted out sooner than later.
Going forward, will we have this issue again? Has this been sorted out once and for all so that a date can be put out when farmers will get their payments and the Department will meet that deadline? What is the update on that?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I wish Deputy Cooney well in his term ahead representing the people of Clare.
I completely agree with his point on simplification and the red tape and bureaucracy that drive farmers mad in certain circumstances where they are chasing money. My number one approach to CAP, the multi-annual financial framework, MFF, and everything else is to make sure we get the maximum amount of money to support our farmers and our food production system. The second most important element is to make it as easy as possible to access the money. The first part involves negotiation across government, at Head of State level and beyond with ministers for finance, to get the overall funding. There will be a detailed process that will go on for more than a year to determine what our CAP looks like in the end, and I will rely on the input of members of this and other committees, key stakeholders, including farm organisations, and so on. I will hold a detailed consultation in which members will have role to play on how we can design CAP to make it fit for purpose. There will be flexibility for member states when we have the overall envelope, but my real focus right now is on making sure the pot is big enough.
I thank the Deputy for his comments on ACRES. I assure him that in the time we are taking to fix the problems and the way in which we are fixing them, I have not taken out one file, even though every member of the committee has come to me with individual files. I have neighbours who are impacted by this who thought there would be a great benefit to having their neighbour as Minister for agriculture, but I have not taken out their individual files to fix them because, if I did, we would be doing it with pen and paper and I would have to go back every year and fix that problem again. We are dealing with it on a systemic basis, identifying the problem, putting people in cohorts, fixing the cohort with an IT solution that means it is fixed and we do not have to come back to it again. I ask the Deputy to trust me. While it has been extremely frustrating for the people remaining, the cases we have resolved are resolved and people can have confidence in the scheme. I really want to instill that confidence again. The people we have not dealt with yet are a top priority and I will not rest until the last one has been sorted out.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Great credit is due to the Minister and I hope that will be the case going forward.
As we are halfway through the five year ACRES environmental co-operation scheme, farmers with designated lands in Clare, such as the Burren and Sliabh Aughty, and hen harrier areas, that are non-productive investment should have the potential to improve their scores and payments. We find two and half years in that no non-productive payments have been made and, possibly, that there is no system for payments. Will these non-productive payments be made to farmers?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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The clear focus has been on getting people their basic payments first and foremost and resolving the problems with that. On the non-productive payments, the same officials are working through it. We are making progress on that side and we hope to have it resolved and getting payments through as soon as possible, over the summer or in September at the latest.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Some farmers have been waiting for two and half years and have not received any payments since this scheme came in. Am I correct in saying that?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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No, there are two sides of ACRES: the general scheme and the co-operation areas. The most important thing has been getting the basic payment. That average payment has worked out at more than the amount paid to farmers on GLAS. Almost €500 million has been paid to farmers since the beginning of 2023. The non-productive payments will be resolved over the summer and work is continuing on them.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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That is welcome news. I hope it will be sorted out sooner than later.
We are halfway through our current CAP programme. Has the Minister prepared for the next programme that will cover 2028 to 2032? We are now hearing there may be a ring-fenced CAP budget from Europe. What guarantees can we give that this important payment for rural Ireland will be ring-fenced for farmers? It is very important going forward.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy can reassure his constituents in County Clare and beyond that we are doing everything in our power to maintain a ring-fenced budget with the dedicated Pillars 1 and 2 that have served us well. I cannot give any guarantee of what the outcome will look like, but I can tell the Deputy what the Government's priority is. I brought a memo to the Cabinet outlining my priorities on CAP, which was approved, so it is now the Government position. That allows me to clearly articulate it. The points I raised about why we are so afraid of moving away from that system is that it would lead to the renationalisation of agricultural funding and an undermining of the Single Market. In some instances there might be a benefit, but in general I would be very concerned about it happening. CAP has worked well for Europe. With the new priorities member states may have in defence, security, research, the environment and many other areas, we cannot lose sight of the schemes that work well. It is the key delivery of income back to the State in receipts from the EU, so it is important for our overall economy as well as for our farmers.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to keep going over things that were already said earlier. TB is a serious issue. It is spreading rapidly. The Minister and his Department have looked into it and have plans. What can we do to curtail TB and, I hope, clean it out completely? I am aware of people who had their whole herds cleaned out completely unfortunately. There have been other discussions about TB, what it is costing families and the pressure it is putting on them. Is there a plan for the future to cut it out or curtail it and start bringing back down the number of animals affected by TB?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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To be clear, I brought forward a five-point plan in my engagement with farm organisations and other key stakeholders. At our summit a few weeks ago, that plan had 30 actions that were all possible measures that could be brought in to address all three elements of the challenge. Since I was appointed at the end of January, I engaged with the TB forum in February, asked the farm organisations and other stakeholders to make submissions, which they did, and then my chief veterinary officer attended the TB forum meeting in March. Our chief veterinary officer, Dr. June Fanning, put forward proposals from the Department at that meeting. There was significant feedback from the farm organisations on them and I amended those proposals, especially by beefing up the supports and extra interventions I was going to make on the wildlife side and resource elements across a number of different interventions.
The chair of the TB forum wrote to me saying he felt the forum had reached a point where it could not go any further in getting to a decision-making point. That is when I called the summit. On that day and last Thursday I was back west and have had 18 hours of detailed negotiations and engagement with farm organisations, highlighting that whatever the final plan looks like, it must address all three key areas of the spread of the disease. I would love to have consensus on it because I would hate farmers who are stressed by it to experience the mixed messaging that could come from conflict later. One area is wildlife, a second is cattle transmission and the third is the residual element left in herds.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his response.
Eileen Lynch (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister and thank him for being with us. I congratulate him on his appointment and wish him luck for the term ahead. I do not want to repeat what has been said. I am conscious of time. The nitrates derogation is incredibly important for farmers, especially as I come from Cork. It is such a big issue in Cork and the wider Munster area.
I am glad to hear the Minister's commitment to retaining our derogation, going forward. I will ask about cross-departmental work. A lot of blame for our water quality falls on farmers, some of which we must accept is deserved. Many measures have been implemented since 2023 to improve the situation and they have been shown to work. There are also Uisce Éireann, local authorities and the impact of wastewater treatment centres. There are cases around the country of sewage and untreated wastewater going into our rivers and waterways. Is there anything that can be done from that point of view? What is being done at an interdepartmental level to deal with that issue? There is a responsibility on farmers but theirs is not the only responsibility.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I wish the Senator well for the term ahead. It is great to have her as a member of this committee.
Her questions demonstrate the very reason we put into the programme for Government a clear commitment to establishing a Cabinet committee on water quality. Chaired by the Taoiseach, it had its first meeting at the end of March. A second meeting is scheduled for the middle of June. The whole idea behind that commitment in the programme for Government was to recognise the fact that when this conversation is had, questions are asked about what farmers and the agricultural sector are doing to improve water quality. They are not the only contributors to water quality. As the Senator has outlined, our local authorities, Uisce Éireann and the EPA all have a role to play. When that conversation is had, we must pull on the green jersey and ensure everyone is doing their bit to give us the best chance to improve our water quality and help our farmers to retain this derogation that is so important for our overall economy. The Cabinet committee is an important tool in that regard. Its second meeting will be in June.
On the broader point, this is about considering water quality in all its forms and recognising that farmers are making considerable strides in this area. They are very much supported by my Department. Significant TAMS grants are available for low-emission slurry spreading, increased slurry storage and beyond. We are making efforts in that regard to support farmers to make interventions that will make a big change.
Eileen Lynch (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. I welcome his commitment to try to maintain ring-fenced funding through CAP. It is important that the funding is just for CAP. There are proposed measures that would include environment funding and we need to be strongly against that. I welcome the Minister's commitment in that regard.
I will speak about TB, which I appreciate has been mentioned by many other speakers. It is a massive threat and is of concern to our agricultural industry at the moment. It has been somewhat ignored or left to the side by previous Ministers for agriculture. I commend the Minister for taking it on. His five-point plan is incredibly ambitious. There will be tough measures in it and it is important we make the right tough decisions as opposed to the wrong ones. I have some queries and concerns.
On pre-movement testing, I feel 30 days is cumbersome for farmers. They will be driven to send their cows to the factory rather than the mart. We must ensure a positive pre-movement plan for farmers. I completely accept that the current 12-month requirement is far too long but a 30-day pre-movement test is probably too short a timeframe. To the best of my knowledge, culled cows are included in that requirement for a 30-day pre-movement test. I do not see why they should be when, in general, culled cows are being bought at a mart and sold to a factory or sent to a feedlot. There is no further movement with them in the vast majority of cases.
The proposal for special sales in respect of animals that are locked up is welcome. I am concerned that a monopoly is being allowed because of the lack of feedlot herd numbers. Will there be a mechanism in place to increase and encourage the issuance of feedlot herd numbers?
We should have more licensed agents working to purchase cattle in marts over dealer numbers. With the risk of the inter-farm transfer of TB, it is important that animals go from the mart directly to where they are meant to go.
There is a proposed two- to three-year restriction on herds after a clear test. That is incredibly restrictive and burdensome for farmers. It shows a distrust of our testing system to date. I have several concerns linked to derogation. I will take the two issues together. Under the current derogation, if you are in derogation but are also locked up, so derogation due to force majeure, essentially, you get your exemption. In that case, if you have your two clear tests and your derogation exemption, because you have a high-risk herd you are restricted for a further two or three years, or whatever the proposal is. During that period, do you still have your derogation exemption? Does that exemption apply if you are restricted for a further two or three years after your clear tests?
For farmers who are in derogation and locked up, their stocking rates may go down. When they subsequently try to rebuild their herd again, have they the ability to go back into derogation if they have gone out of it because their stocking number reduced while they were locked up?
I do not know if a figure is available because I have not seen it, but obviously the predominance of TB is in dairy herds. The dairy animal is under a lot more stress than those that are organically farmed or those sucklers, cows for beef farming, culled cows, etc. Do we know how many of the farmers who are locked up are in derogation? I appreciate we have a breakdown in terms of dairy, beef, etc., but in terms of those who are locked up, how many are in derogation or do we have a percentage for that?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator. There was lots in her contribution. I answered up to the questions about CAP, did I not?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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There was a lot in the Senator's contribution and some of it was fairly technical. Perhaps the Minister would like to write on those points.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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We are good on the TB point. On a broad point on TB, there is no final set of proposals. I have come to the table with 30 actions under a five-point plan. Not all of those must be implemented. As I explained, we must have a layering effect that makes the pieces of the jigsaw come together. I removed some of those measures as part of ongoing negotiations for the second day of talks, in particular those dealing with the removal of compensation if a farmer has carried out, let us say, risky behaviour. I do not want to be in a situation whereby I am taking compensation from farmers. That would be extreme.
We are at 6.3% of herd incidence in the country. The last time we were at that level was in 2003. In that year, there were 28,000 reactors. We are now at the same level of herd incidence but there were almost 42,000 reactors last year. If we do not intervene, that figure could rise to 63,000 by the end of the year. Something has changed significantly in respect of the spread of the disease and the number of reactors.
The testing system is not 100%. If it was, the issue would have been resolved years ago. That is our challenge. The skin test, which detects 80% of infected cattle, gives us very good cover. Coupling it with the gamma interferon test, GIF, or blood testing, can bring that 80% to over 90%. We know there is no one simple test that will detect 100% of cases. We must identify the areas of high risk. We know where the high-risk cohorts are. We know there are three levels of transmission. There is residual transmission from high-risk herds that have significant outbreaks of three or more infected cattle. That cohort is 45% more likely to have a reactor in the next three years. Cattle-to-cattle transmission is a significant contributing factor, as is wildlife. We have a range of options to address those three areas. We are coming together with a set of proposals. I do not have the time to go through the individual measures. Time does not allow for it. The final set-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister might take the opportunity to write to the committee.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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-----of proposals I hope to get agreement on will give that cover and will not leave a hole in the fence for the infection to seep through.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Minister send a note?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Before we move to the next speaker, the Minister, having done two hours, is entitled to a break if he wishes.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I am happy to keep going and finish the meeting.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith agat.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister and his officials for being here today. I, too, welcome this forum. We are here for the betterment of the agricultural sector. That must be said.
Regarding water quality, I concur with my Senator friend and colleague regarding Irish Water.
The blame game seems to always fall on the farmer but we need to look at other sectors that are causing the problem, more so than the farming sector.
I will talk about TB quickly and then I will go back to a few other areas. On TB in general, when an animal goes down and shows lesions in a factory, it shows the TB has gone too far and a skin test did not pick it up in the past. That is when it shows lesions in the factory. We have a skin test for TB but we are not doing enough blood testing. Where an animal goes down as a result of the skin test, I hope we introduce the blood test automatically in all counties for those herds. The blood test has a greater rate of detecting TB than the skin test.
If I have an inspection for the basic income support scheme, BISS, or an NCT on my car, I get a report. Every farmer gets a report when they do an NCT. Why are we not sending out reports on TB testing? The information is there. It is not a big job to send out a report to every farmer regarding their TB test. The farmer can look through their report and see if there is an animal that has a high reading that did not go down. It is then up to them to make a decision to feed up that animal and not sell it through the marts but put it straight into the factory.
This is very important. We want to address this, in that if an animal has a high reading but still passes, that animal can be sold in a mart and sold to somebody else. That is an area we need to check. Will reports be sent to farmers in future regarding TB testing to categorise what stage their animals are at? As the Minister knows, there is huge stress, hardship and mental health challenges associated with TB. A number of years ago, I had an animal that went down and I lost a lot of animals. It was just before I got married.
There is no helpline a farmer can ring regarding their concerns when an animal goes down. There is a huge amount of stress associated with that. There is a whole aspect there we need to deal with. The Department should have a helpline so a farmer can lift the phone. We talk about mental health and one thing and another. There is nothing worse than losing a whole herd of animals as it affects the family and the family farm.
Regarding TB hotspots, I am sure we know them. In these hotspots, have we done everything in our power to control the TB in them? Have we vaccinated all the badgers in those areas? Are there areas we have missed within that? Is there a scheme? If a farmer has a TB set on their land, will there be a package there for them to fence off that set so the animals are not allowed around that set? Will there be some sort of a package if a farmer has a set and rings the Department and identifies it? Information is key in this. We have to know where all the badger sets are within the country. If we know that, we know exactly where the problems are or where the vaccinations need to be. Information is key for both the farmer and the Department.
I have questions about a few other areas. I will let the Minister answer those questions first, if he does not mind, and I will come back to others in a second.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I am happy to answer them. They are really detailed but it is very important. On the Senator's first point regarding water quality, I do not for a minute want it to sound like we are putting the blame on other people. Farmers have a role to play in terms of water quality. The point we are making is farmers are making great strides in that area and we need others to make the investment across society to make sure they do that together. We have to do this and we are not denying we have a job of work to do as farmers. We are doing it. The EPA results point to that. My Department is actively encouraging and supporting farmers through the €60 million European innovation partnership, EIP, which is doing really good work, the targeted agricultural modernisation scheme, TAMS, supports and a range of other supports to help farmers in that work. Farmers can do more than one thing at once. They can improve water quality while continuing to produce top quality food.
On the point the Senator made around TB, if an animal displays with lesions and has produced a negative skin test, they most likely were not infectious. As I said, our skin test is not 100% either. What happens with the lesion is the body seals off that part of the infected body and it is not spread to others. We want to get to a point where we are not identifying the lesions. We have silent carriers within the herd that are not getting picked up in the skin test. We want to root them out and get to them quicker. That is why part of what I am proposing is thousands of extra blood tests across the higher risk cohorts where it is the most beneficial to do so. That will be a really significant extra cost from my Department's budget but it is absolutely the right thing to do. At 80% efficacy for a skin test, if you layer on a blood test after that, all of a sudden it is over 90%. In the short term, that is where the interventions I am talking about would see a significant increase in the number of reactors. That will happen anyway but we want to find them early. We want to find them in the herd they are in and ensure they do not go to other herds and seed it out.
A lot of people focused on the small number of farmers selling those cattle. I understand the concerns being raised. Nobody is talking about the 94% of farmers whose herds do not have TB who buy in high-risk cattle through no fault of their own because they do not know that animal is a higher risk. Having information is absolutely key and I feel duty-bound that those farmers know what it is and know if they are bringing in a risky animal who has a much higher propensity to or chance of getting this. If we can support the farmers who are coming out of this, there are alternative routes where those animals can go.
I completely agree on the point about reports on TB testing. My plan is that farmers get their own information back after TB tests and get clear information so we have a really clear focus and a refocus on that test. On the hardship and mental health, one of my plans is to introduce a dedicated helpline where the officials who are answering the phone know TB inside out and can answer all of the specific questions.
In this debate, Deputies Aird, Cooney and Kenny, Senators Lynch, Brady and Daly and anyone who raised TB raised very specific points and questions. The stress and strain when this knocks on your door is a horrible time for farmers. I want them to get consistent, high-level support from my Department. That means bringing consistency to the regional veterinary offices, RVOs, and the district veterinary offices, DVOs. I have heard that very regularly. Some of our DVOs are brilliant. Some are a bit short on staff. I am talking about putting a 30% increase in resources into our wildlife response and into our response from the Department that will deliver the type of service that is demanded and sought.
In terms of the TB package, the Senator and I have spoken previously about the badger set and the latrine out the front. The badger does not want to meet the cattle. They tend to stay out of their way. They tend to urinate in the latrine at the front of the set and cattle are nosy by their nature. They go in, put their nose in there and nose all around it. We need to stop that happening. There are very simple, really effective biosecurity measures that farmers can implement by fencing off the set to keep the cattle back from it. That will have a very positive impact. I want to support farmers in doing that. I also want to support them in regard to water troughs and raising the level of water troughs as well. This is all significant investment that I want to put in.
On the point on hotspots, we know that if a badger moves, it will move a significant distance that could be 1 km. If we have a new road coming through an area or if we have a forest that is about to be felled, I want to have a dedicated vaccination programme that goes in and identifies those badgers. Badgers with TB need to be taken out because, other than the fact the poor badger has TB and it will not end well for them, those who do not have it are then vaccinated so that when they move, if there is going to be a significant interruption in their area, they do not spread the disease with them. A quicker response is a key part of that.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I thank the Minister and his officials. I have deep concerns about CAP, as I know the committee has as well. There is a movement across Europe and Europe is rearming. There is going to be an increase of €800 billion in the military budget. It seems from the noises Europe is making and the Minister's statements that we have very little impact over that. What practical steps is the Minister taking to persuade other European countries to protect CAP? We have to remember that CAP began as a result of a lack of food security across Europe. It is deeply worrying now that a time when Europe is rearming and maybe preparing for war, we will see reduction of food security.
If it is the case that that happens, what contingency does the Minister have for Ireland to increase food security? It appears there are huge land pressures around renewable energy, forestry, biodiversity and, indeed, the GAEC 2. The Minister mentioned there may be payments for farmers to reduce production in GAEC 2. Has the Minister concerns about that?
What contingency is in place in Ireland and not just to protect the CAP across Europe?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy very much and wish him well in his term. It is great to have him on the committee. To say it clearly yet again, the CAP has served us very well. I think it is understandable for eastern European countries to want to have a focus on defence. The Deputy spoke about rearming as a very negative thing. There is a war-----
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I can understand why people who have Vladimir Putin as their neighbour would be concerned about their safety. These are fellow European countries, so I understand their concern. I-----
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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It is a reality that this is happening. If it comes to pass that the CAP does have a significantly reduced focus on agriculture, what is the Minister doing to prepare in this regard? What contingency measures has he in place? What risk analysis is there in terms of protecting food security here? There is a movement away from food production here. This is my question. Is this a-----
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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No, there is not. I do not accept the Deputy's underlying premise. He threw in a comment around GAEC 2 there as well. I am just making the point that European - and I will answer the specific point made by the Deputy - food security is not about every individual country producing all the food themselves. That is not food security. We are the second-most food secure nation in the world. This is not because we produce every bit of food consumed around this island here on the island. We had that time of protectionism many years ago and we were all quite poor because of it. What we should be and are doing across Europe is ensuring that the countries that can best produce food, those that can do so most environmentally sustainably and most cost-effectively, should do it. Our pasture-based system, then, means we are extremely well suited to taking inedible protein and grass through our cattle and grazing system, turn it into dairy and beef products and then export them around the world.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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Regarding the point about contingency measures and the work we are doing in this regard, I am not giving up. There is an element of throwing in the towel in some of what the Deputy is saying.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I take great heart when I look at a country like Poland, which is on the flank of Russia and facing such major problems. That country's minister for agriculture is, like us, strongly advocating for the need for a fully-funded CAP with the old structure. I am not, therefore, giving up on that and I am continuing to fight very hard. I work with-----
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Can I proceed? I appreciate the answer. I am not throwing in the towel at all, but I do think we should be concerned and have contingencies in place. That is my point. Regarding GAEC 2, can the Minister outline-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I will just bring to the attention of the Deputy that there is a Dáil vote. The notification is not coming up on the screen and the bell has not been ringing because there is some technical issue. We can return to this topic later or does the Deputy wish to keep going?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, but I will not be able to come back. I was supposed to have been here until 6 p.m. I do not mind finishing, but I cannot come back I am afraid. I should have been gone 15 minutes ago.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Very good. Can the Deputy complete his questioning quickly?
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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The Cathaoirleach can cut me off when he feels it is necessary.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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Let us just not miss the vote.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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In terms of GAEC 2 and the appeals, I will be brief. Will the Minister outline the appeals process, how it will work and the timeline? If farmers do appeal, will they be punished in terms of payments for BISS, CRISS, ACRES, etc.?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister can send in a written answer if he likes.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I will provide a written response to that question. It is probably the best approach because we are out of time.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Can I pose the rest of my questions now for a written response or can I write to the Minister directly?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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If he likes, the Deputy can forward his questions to the clerk and we can-----
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I will forward them to the Minister and the clerk.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I will ensure the Deputy gets detailed responses.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy sends his questions to the clerk, we can forward them to the Minister. I will forgo my questions. I thank the Minister and the members of the committee.