Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Maidin mhaith. Fáilte go léir. Apologies have been received from Deputies Eamon Scanlon and Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire.

Before we proceed, I have a few housekeeping matters to go through as follows. In accordance with Standing Orders, I wish to make the following declaration. I do solemnly declare that I will duly and faithfully and to the best of my knowledge and ability execute the office of Cathaoirleach of the Joint Committee on Defence and National Security without fear or favour, apply the rules as laid down by the Houses in an impartial and fair manner, maintain order and uphold the rights and privileges of members in accordance with the Constitution and Standing Orders.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit. In this regard, I ask any member partaking via MS Teams that, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if members' statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

This committee plays a critical role in making real and long-overdue changes to the lives of those serving in the Defence Forces, as well as protecting Ireland's neutrality and the triple lock and examining our preparedness in the event of a national emergency. It is a new and necessary committee designed to address unprecedented challenges facing our island. I want to assure the committee that this committee is on the side of the ordinary women and men in the Defence Forces. The recommendations outlined in the report of the Commission on the Defence Forces must be implemented to bring transformative and lasting change. The Defence Forces are renowned the world over for their peacekeeping. A key area the committee will examine is the attempts to erode the triple lock mechanism and its impact on our neutrality. Ireland's neutrality is a long-standing policy position, which has enabled a proud history of peace and conflict resolution. Our military neutrality and independent foreign policy enable us to identify breaches of international law, occupation, apartheid, annexation and military aggression when they present, and to take proportionate, effective and humanitarian-centred action in response to such breaches. Neutrality should be a peace policy advocate for resolution of conflict. I would like the committee to engage in open, transparent and genuine debate on how we resource our neutrality. Another important area to examine on this committee is cyber threats and the protection of our international assets, namely, cables, data centres and interconnectors.

We also urgently need to look at our disaster readiness and how we protect our island in the event of a national emergency. I am committed to leading this Joint Committee on Defence and National Security with impartiality and integrity. I want to facilitate all members to give of their best to formulate a solid, transparent and practical work plan that will make a significant contribution to the kind of Defence Forces and national security mechanisms necessary for our island.

Do members want to comment at this stage?

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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I congratulate the Chair on becoming Cathaoirleach of this committee. I look forward to working with you and wish you very well. I was heartened by your opening remarks, particularly relating to the triple lock and the work that this committee can do on that.

I want to put on record something I also put on record at a meeting of the Committee on Standing Orders and Dáil Reform, which is that this committee has been set up with too narrow a definition of national security. Limiting it to the protection of our cables and cybersecurity does not meet any known national or international definition of national security. Terrorism, espionage, economic threats and other threats are outside it. If the Cathaoirleach could work on our behalf as Chair of this committee to ensure that we can have a full breadth of work programme relating to the national security element of that, it would help and aid all our work on this committee and in the wider Oireachtas. It would represent the people of Ireland a lot better than the current definition that is applied to this committee.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Cathaoirleach, I congratulate you on your elevation as Cathaoirleach and I wish you well in it. I look forward to working with you. I concur with a lot of what was said in your opening remarks.

Regarding the sphere and remit of the committee, I have concerns about it because there has been some debate about it. It is a very important committee. There has been some commentary and some exchanges about it in the public realm. We need to be able to clearly define what the role of this committee is. Like the previous speaker pointed out, it is either a committee with a remit in terms of national security and defence or it is not. National security is national security. This committee should not be restricted to one part of that. Maybe we need an honest debate or a short, open discussion around how we deal with this because if it is defence and national security, who is putting the limit on that? Is it the Government? Is it the Civil Service? As a new member of this committee, I do not know. The public does not know. We need to be clear because if we start off blind and find that we are restricted here and there in terms of what we can discuss here and who we can call in, then the committee is spanceled from day one. We have to be absolutely clear about it. I am saying that as somebody who wants to protect our national security. Like the Cathaoirleach, I want to see the members of the Defence Forces fully resourced, looked after properly and fit for purpose. The Army Reserve is an area that needs to be dealt with as well. It would be useful to have that clarified and to find out exactly where we are going with this. I wish the Cathaoirleach well.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I congratulate the Cathaoirleach on her role and look forward to working with her. I am delighted that she started off today by talking about Ireland's status and the triple lock. I believe that we need to bring in expert opinion to identify precisely what Ireland is. There are different views such as neutrality versus militarily non-aligned. We need to sort that out once and for all. We also need to sort out where the triple lock stands with respect to our status internationally. I agree with Deputies Smith and Stanley. The tight constraints that this committee has been set up under do nothing for national security.

It is quite good on the Defence Forces. If this committee looks at cybersecurity, we can see that there are three agencies in the State that deal with cybersecurity. They are the National Cyber Security Centre, the Garda National Cyber Crime Bureau and the Defence Forces cyber capabilities. All three should be subject to this committee. I looked at the terms of reference for UK committees. The UK does not have a single committee for security and defence. It has two separate committees. We have an organisation within the Defence Forces called J2, which is a secret service organisation. That organisation should be answerable to this committee and so too should the Garda security services. I believe there was an effort to tie the committee's hands before we started and from what I have read so far, to limit us to terms and conditions of employment for members of the Defence Forces, which is significant. I am not for one moment taking away from that. We need to look at retention issues as a matter of urgency. However, if this committee deals with security and defence, I agree with the two previous speakers that we should be looking at security and defence. We are living in a very dangerous world. I welcome the Cathaoirleach's approach regarding sorting out the neutrality thing and the triple lock thing. Let us have professional advice on this before we make any decisions.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I echo everyone's congratulations on Deputy Conway-Walsh's appointment as Cathaoirleach. I look forward to working with her for the next couple of years. I agree with her regarding the prioritisation of the discussion of the triple lock. There has been a lot of misinformation and disinformation in public discourse in the past number of months. My research has ascertained that there have been more than 50 opinion and analysis pieces in the Irish broadsheet media such as the Irish Examiner, The Irish Times and the Irish Independent since January on defence and security. The vast majority of them contain the idea that we ought to relinquish our neutral status and that our neutral status such as it is - military non-alignment - is something to be ashamed of or that it is in our national interest to join a more formal military alliance - either a European army headed up by Germany and France or NATO. There are a lot of myths and inaccuracies in circulation. I have been writing in the defence and security sphere for 25 years and I can tell the committee that when pitching to editors in the broadsheets, one might be lucky to get one or two feature pieces into the broadsheets in a month. To get more than 50 into the broadsheets speaks of a very sustained public affairs and media relations campaign. There are a number of very high-profile opinion leaders in this area who keep reiterating the same myths around neutrality and trying to decouple the triple lock from our militarily non-aligned neutral status. I agree with Senator Craughwell that we should have informed voices to get some accuracy on that in the interests of the public, particularly in the context of a Bill being brought to Cabinet later this month on relinquishing the triple lock.

I also agree with everyone regarding the remit of the committee. Having served on a number of committees such as, for example, the Joint Committee on Disability Matters and the Joint Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, I know that a committee has to have the wherewithal to hold stakeholders to account. If we are so limited as has been suggested to cables and cybersecurity, it makes the work of the committee effectively meaningless. I will tell members why. We are at an inflection point in this Republic with regard to national security and defence for two reasons. The first is that our defence in the maritime, ground and cyber domains is a complete failure. We are Europe's weakest link. This has been acknowledged by Government and I welcome the recommendations of the Commission on the Defence Forces but the de facto reality is that we do not contribute. We are not net contributors to intelligence in Europe or internationally. We have not generated any meaningful intelligence since before the Good Friday Agreement.

That is possibly part of the peace dividend. We are net recipients of intelligence and that places Ireland in a vulnerable and weak position. For example, we only know that Russian aircraft is operating in our controlled airspace because our partners choose to tell us so we do not know what else is happening. That is something that is set out. We have a duty of care to protect the State and its citizens from internal and external threats. To confine the business of this committee to simply cables and cybersecurity at a time of crisis within the Defence Forces is a nonsense.

Another issue is that the primary intelligence agency of the State is An Garda Síochána. While reference was made to J2, it consists of a very small number of staff officers who do not have the resources they require. They do not have the resources to gather or generate intelligence in a meaningful way. We do not have, as is the case in other jurisdictions, national technical means. Therefore, it makes no sense for us not to be able to bring in the State security agency, that is, An Garda Síochána, to answer very simple and straightforward questions. I am sure it would be anxious to come in and talk about the resources it needs and the apparatus and architecture of an effective intelligence agency that would be fit for purpose in the 21st century.

There is an attempt to frame our defence and security exclusively in the context of the war in Ukraine and Putin's criminal invasion of Ukraine. It is a mistake to do that because in ten or 15 years' time, Óglaigh na hÉireann will no longer exist and An Garda Síochána will no longer exist. They will have been replaced by something possibly called the police service of Ireland or defence forces Ireland. In the next ten years, we have to fundamentally redesign policing and the administration of justice, intelligence, defence and security and we must do that in the context of an all-island solution where at present, we have six counties in NATO. I do not know if there will be six counties in NATO in ten or 15 years' time but the expectations for security on this island will be very high and the guarantees for security will be very high so we have to have a defence force and a security and intelligence agency that not only are fit for purpose in the 21st century - they clearly are in crisis at present - but also are acceptable to everybody on this island, including the 1 million or so people at a minimum who have serious questions and reservations about what is going to happen next. It behoves us as public representatives not to exclusively frame defence and security in the context of a war in Ukraine but to frame it in the context of what is going to happen next on this island. If we prepare for it, it is possible that it could be successful but if we do not prepare for it and if a committee like this is excluded from discussing these matters, it will be a failure and our children and grandchildren will have to live that experience. Members will have to forgive me but as I am a member of the disability matters committee, which is due to convene at 9.30 a.m., I must leave this meeting. I will try to come back in and thank the Cathaoirleach for her forbearance.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I echo the welcome from everybody else to the Chair. I look forward to working with her over the term. I am a first-time TD so this is literally my first committee meeting. I listened to contributions and the Cathaoirleach's opening statement with great interest. I echo some of the comments that we need a greater discussion around neutrality. There is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding as to what it means for us now, what it meant for us in the past and what it might mean for us in the future. A core part of our agenda should be to create clarity on that and bring in the range of views and expertise around that, which can inform our wider discussion around the triple lock, which is very important.

I also welcome the Cathaoirleach's statement that a key role of this committee is to support our Defence Forces.

I want to include in that the full range of our Defence Forces, which also includes, as we have mentioned, our Air Corps and our Naval Service, which seriously need support as well, and our Reserve Defence Force. As one of the first female members in the Army Reserve, it has a place in my heart and I would like us to review it and refresh that as well. I also want us to consider the role of our Civil Defence. Everybody plays a part in the security and defence of this island. We need to have a wide brush, as others mentioned, because just looking at certain sections in a narrow way is not going to give us the full perspective we need in order to ensure for future generations, as was mentioned also, that we are doing the right things in this committee.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat. I will take Deputy Brabazon next and then Senator Wilson.

Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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Déanaim comhghairdeas leis an gCathaoirleach as ucht an ainmniúcháin don phost atá aici. I congratulate her on her nomination as Cathaoirleach of this committee and I look forward to working with her over the next number of years, as others said. I certainly welcome her emphasis on the men and women of our Defence Forces, who were mentioned at the start, and regarding the triple lock and our very important neutrality. Neutrality is really important to all of us Irish people and we really need a very clear debate on where we stand, particularly in the changing global context of where we are at at the moment in respect of these matters. I agree with Senator Craughwell's proposition that we should get some professional advice regarding the triple lock. Hopefully, such professional advice would be objective and not be politically swayed one way or the other so that we can make an informed decision. There is a lot of misinformation about neutrality. It is a function of our democracy, unfortunately, that this misinformation has come about.

I came to the committee room this morning for my first committee meeting as a first-time committee member and as a newly-elected Deputy full of enthusiasm for this whole area. Unfortunately, Senator Clonan, has sucked the life out of that with his very realistic painting of the picture of where we are at with our Defence Forces and our national security. We certainly have a huge amount of work to do as a committee. As others said, the first thing we have to do is expand our remit as much as we possibly can. I am happy to work with other members in that regard.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I congratulate the Cathaoirleach very sincerely on her ascension to the Chair of this great committee. I worked with her in the Seanad for many years and I know the good work she does for the people of her constituency and, indeed, the diaspora all over the world. I am delighted to see her in this role.

I welcome the fact that the Government has established this committee. It is an important committee and I am looking forward enthusiastically to the years ahead. I assume we will have an opportunity to put together a work programme. In my experience of being a Member of the Seanad for a number of years and of being a member of a number of committees, we set our own agenda. I do not think we should be curtailed by what terms of reference may or may not say. Without going into a long spiel about what I would like to achieve, we as a committee should grasp enthusiastically the fact the committee is in existence. We should set our own agenda and pursue that agenda. If some people tell us we cannot pursue certain areas, then we should question why. I believe the main emphasis of this committee should be on our Defence Forces but also on security. As Senators Craughwell and Clonan and Deputies Smith and Stanley have already pointed out, there are two Departments within our State that deal with our security. The first is the Department of Justice and the second is the Department of Defence. I believe the committee on justice should be called the committee on justice and security and that this committee is aptly named as defence and security.

We should pursue both of those roles with enthusiasm, go after what we believe we should be doing and let someone tell us we should not be doing it and explain why. That is the way I would do it. I am delighted to be joined by my colleagues, Deputies Brabazon and O'Meara, and I look forward to the work programme we will set for the next 12 months. We may have a different attitude in 12 months' time towards these situations. I am delighted to be joined by everybody else by the way and am looking forward enthusiastically to the work of this committee. Let us set our agenda and let someone tell us we cannot do something if we want to pursue it.

Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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I too wish to start my comments by congratulating the Cathaoirleach on her appointment. I genuinely look forward to working with her on this very important and new committee. It is an honour to be appointed to this committee, particularly at a time when we are seeing issues of security, including international security, in Ireland and right across the European Union. I acknowledge the commitment the Government has given and the work it has done in establishing this committee. It is very important. I welcome the work done to date on the implementation of the Commission on the Defence Forces recommendations and acknowledge there is a lot of work there yet to do. We should ensure the Defence Forces' personnel get the support they deserve. This is a very important point in relation to the work we will do here. I would like my work on this committee to be pragmatic but also personnel-centred. I am aware of the challenges presented here today, particularly by Senator Clonan who spoke very well and who informed us very well about the triple lock. It will be a huge part of the work of this committee. There is no point in denying it. There is a huge amount of discussion in the media about it. The work of this committee will be absolutely vital to informing the public and ourselves and to having a fair and honest debate about that. Senator Craughwell and others also mentioned what it means to be neutral, militarily unaligned, militarily neutral in today's world. We have very important work to do to get unbiased views at this committee and to inform us as members. I look forward to working with all members in the years ahead.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I call Deputy Callaghan.

Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Déanaim comhghairdeas leis an gCathaoirleach on her appointment. This is my first ever committee meeting as a newly-elected TD and it is a subject about which I am very passionate as a former member of the Defence Forces and a former UN peacekeeper. I concur with my colleagues on the committee on the importance of ensuring we get those expert, objective people in to talk to us about what our neutrality means, what the triple lock means, what dismantling it would mean and what it would mean to relinquish it. I am very much looking forward to that.

Our Defence Forces need a lot of support, not just in terms of the current serving members but also our veterans. I concur with my colleague, Deputy O'Connell, that we need to look at increasing our numbers in the Reserve Defence Force. I would like to focus a lot on retention. We have a duty in this committee to really shine a light on and highlight the honourable service and contribution the members of the Defence Forces give to our State.

Regarding our national security, I concur with my colleagues that we really need to focus hugely on that. The title is there but it does not seem to be the case that we will have much ability to really expand on that. Defence and national security go hand in hand but the way in which our society, and society globally, is unfolding at the moment, it really needs to be a high priority for us.

I welcome Senator Wilson's comments that suggest we are not bound by this and that we set the agenda. I fully support that. I look forward to working with everybody.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I call Senator Conway.

Joe Conway (Independent)
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Guím gach rath ar an gCathaoirleach ina hobair thábhachtach sa todhchaí. Tá súil agam go mbainfidh sí taitneamh agus tairbhe as. Cé nach bhfuilim i mo bhall den choiste seo, d'iarr mé go speisialta ar chead teacht isteach ar maidin, mar tá spéis mhór agam i gcúrsaí slándála agus i gcursaí cosanta. Although I am not a member of the committee, I asked especially to be allowed to come in this morning because I have a deep interest in the security and the future of our nation. It is a truism to say that we have an amazing quality of life in Ireland. As a grandfather, it is a quality of life that I would love to see passed on to the generations to come. However, without adequate security and defence in our country, we may well not be in a position to pass on the great benefits of the quality of life that we have. It is from that source that I hope to be here as an observer as often as I can. Maybe in my own very small way I can contribute to the affairs of the committee. I am very thankful to the Cathaoirleach and the committee for affording me the chance to come here today.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Tá fáilte romhat. I think we have had contributions from everybody. Those contributions reflect the experience and the expertise we have on the committee and the job we will be able to do, provided we are allowed to do that job. I heard two significant things in particular. All of the contributions have been significant and relevant but there are concerns about any constraints that may be put on the committee as it seeks do the really valuable job we need to do. We have a consensus that we need to be able to do the job in hand. We will discuss the work plan in detail. There is an urgent necessity to discuss neutrality and the triple lock, and, as was mentioned by some members, the misinformation and disinformation regarding these matters. Let us get the expertise into this committee. Let us dispel any myths, let us have a full and frank conversation, and let us gather that in a report from this committee using everybody's contributions, expertise and experience. Those are the two main things I have heard. Some very valuable information has been submitted this morning. Along with the secretariat, I, as Chair, will explore all of those things to ensure that everybody's voice is equally heard on this committee. If there are no further comments-----

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Chair, if I could. The issue of the triple lock is really urgent. It is in the public domain all of the time. I ask that we set about identifying experts who can appear before the committee, including experts on the Constitution, because there is some question that the removal of the triple lock would require a constitutional change. It would also require some historians who understand, for example, the Hague Convention and the issues of neutrality. It would also require senior military officers who, after all, are the people who have to implement it. In light of the fact that the Minister is bringing the heads of a Bill to the Cabinet, it should be our first priority.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I agree. I think that is the consensus across the committee. Therefore, I ask all members to submit suggestions for witnesses to the clerk. We can present those suggestions at the next meeting. If we agree them, we can get our meetings and our work under way as quickly as possible.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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We should meet as soon as possible with the representative bodies of the Defence Forces.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, indeed. That goes without saying. I ask everyone to think about this to see how we are going to get the most rounded and full discussions when we hear from witnesses. We can decide in private session how exactly we are going to lay that out so that we get the maximum effectiveness from it.

We will now move on to talk about the nominations for Leas-Chathaoirleach. As you are aware, a committee may choose to elect a Leas-Chathaoirleach who can perform the duties and exercise the authority of the Cathaoirleach in his or her absence.

I propose requesting nominations for the position of Leas-Chathaoirleach. Members may wish to consult one another and send nominations to the clerk by email by the close of business on 20 May 2025. Ideally, the election of the Leas-Chathaoirleach can take place during the meeting on 22 May 2025. Is that agreed? Agreed. Go raibh maith agaibh.

We will now go into private session to deal with some housekeeping matters.