Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 17 October 2024
Committee on Public Petitions
Consideration of Public Petition on Voting for Irish-born Citizens Abroad: Discussion
1:30 pm
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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A delegation from the Czech Republic has been unable to join us. We wish its members all the best on their journey home tomorrow morning.
Next on the agenda is the approval of the minutes of the previous meeting. The minutes were deferred so we are okay.
I will read some formal notices before going any further. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place in which Parliament has chosen sit to, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the parliamentary precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.
The next business is our engagement with Ms Gráinne McLoughlin, petitioner, on Petition No. P00060/24 regarding voting for Irish-born citizens abroad. Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege, and the practices of the Houses with regard to references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.
Before we hear from our witnesses, I propose that we publish their opening statements on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed.
On behalf of the committee, I extend a warm welcome to the witnesses, Ms Gráinne McLoughlin, the petitioner, and Ms Caitriona Nolan. They are welcome. Ms McLoughlin is here to discuss her petition regarding her feeling that the Government should allow Irish-born citizens their right to vote as stated in the ninth amendment to the Irish Constitution. Voting rights in Ireland are rigid in comparison with other EU member states. Ms McLoughlin has submitted an opening statement. It will be taken as read and has been published.
In 2006, 36 European countries allowed their overseas immigrants to vote. Postal ballots have been suggested but in the current digital environment, voting can take place by digital means. Failing this, voting can take place in person in consulates and embassies. There is increasing globalisation and it is disenfranchising of Ireland to not allow voting rights to its citizens abroad. Half of those emigrating are in the age group of 25 to 44, and a huge number of Ireland's young voices are not being heard in elections. Irish emigrants are not losing touch with Ireland because of fast improvements in technology such as the Internet. Those who intend to return have a right to continue to have a say in how their country is run. The accelerating trend globally is towards allowing overseas citizens to vote in all elections. Ireland has the most restrictive voting rights in the world in terms of overseas voting. Inclusivity means that all voices, including those of Irish citizens living abroad, should be heard.
Members will now have the opportunity to ask questions of Ms McLoughlin. Each member will have ten minutes and we will allow people to come back in if they want to speak more than once.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome our witnesses. I have been considering this issue for a long time. There is a massive Irish diaspora living across the world. I can only speak for myself, but the minute your foot steps outside this country, you become more patriotic. It does not matter where you are on holidays. You become more patriotic and it is as simple as that.
In its response, the Department mentioned a couple of things about the changes that would be required to articles of the Constitution. It also referred to the Fifth Report of the Convention on the Constitution. I am in agreement with the proposal. If you were here on holidays from Australia, you could go to the embassy to cast your vote. We must always remember that people fought and died for the right to vote. It took a long time for women to get the right to vote. This is about equality and representation. Politics can sometimes be nasty and dirty. I often say to people that it does not matter who you vote for. Once you vote, you have a right to complain. You have a voice. That is my take on the matter.
This is a joined-up committee. I am in agreement with the petition. It is one of the most democratic functions on the planet as it stands. I saw a big difference between the 2016 election and the 2020 election. Younger people have been very disappointed. I met many who went to polling stations but do not have a vote. Others sit on their backsides and do nothing other than complain when it is all over. In the programme for Government, there was a commitment to doing it but, unfortunately, it did not progress. This committee is intended to raise the concerns of ordinary, everyday persons like us. The witnesses should not judge me by the shirt and tie I am wearing because I will have my tracksuit on later. We are all the same people.
We are talking about millions of people, scattered all over the world, who do not have a say as to what goes on in Ireland. Unfortunately, the only say they have when they are living here is to take the option to emigrate. That loses connection, in one sense. On the other side, with the Internet and all the technology we have now, the world has become so small. I had a party one night with a fellow in Canada. He was below in Cork and we had a great old chat. The world has become that small. I agree that this issue should be considered when we democratically elect a government. We have a proud history. People on the far side of the world may not be watching this meeting but after today, that concern will be raised. I am delighted because people have a perception that they need thousands of signatures to come before the Committee on Public Petitions and the Ombudsman. That is not so. Everybody has an equal voice and an equal right and that is what it should be about.
I would also consider lowering the age limit for voting. We have considered organising that on a trial basis for the presidential election to see how it progresses. There will be an election in the coming weeks rather than months. Perhaps there will be a change of Government and policy can change. There is an option there under a particular article of the Constitution.
I refer to Articles 12.2.2°, 16, and 47.2 of the Constitution. There is a provision to change it and I am delighted we are here discussing same.
Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:
I am in agreement. It is a bit worrying, if we are moving forward as a country, that we are not keeping up with everyone else. Even with the EU, we need to be moving forward a little bit. It is not even all of the Irish connections. There are approximately 3 million people who grew up here and it is about looking at those people first.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Is that people who are still Irish passport holders living abroad?
Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:
Yes. It is people who emigrated probably on a short-term basis but found that they enjoyed their life there. They may, at some point, want to come back and have children or they may have elderly parents whom they want to come back and look after. Just because people have gone does not mean they want to give up citizenship.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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As I said, people feel more patriotic the minute they step outside the country than they do when they come in.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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That is a valid point. One would imagine, Chair, this would be a commonsense approach. If people still have their Irish passport with a reference number on it, that is a true identity document. Surely these people still have their PPS number as well. They should be able to vote online or go to the nearest embassy in whatever country they are in.
Ms Caitriona Nolan:
Voting can be done digitally. For example, graduates of Trinity College can vote in Seanad elections. If we can find a way to do that, why can we not extend it, using consulates and embassies all over the world to allow people to vote digitally? Perhaps changing the whole system to digital might be better, cheaper and all the rest.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Citizens abroad are interested in this. We spoke about this earlier in a private meeting.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Brazilians in their thousands voted here a couple of months ago. At the minute, Americans are voting in their election.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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It is because they will not-----
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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There is a lack of political will. It would involve amending the Electoral Act 1963. I have just marked it in my notes to flag the matter. We can see whether that can be changed. As out guests have said, the digital age is so advanced now that I cannot see major costs being incurred.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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People would log on to a Government website.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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People in Spain, Portugal, Australia, New Zealand or wherever could log on to MyGovID, type in their PPS number and passport number, show their ID and cast their vote.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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The opening statement mentions that the Irish diaspora stay connected to their homeland through their parents and family. Some of them have property. Do our guests think granting this voting right would increase that interest and connection with Ireland overall?
Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:
It would. A lot of Irish people who no longer live in this country are very proud of Irish culture, anything from Gaelic football to the language to Irish dancing. They bring their culture with them and it is very important. These people are of a certain age group. People in their 60s do not necessarily tend to emigrate and neither do young people of 18 years of age or so. It is people in their 20s and upwards who emigrate. Voting rights are quite important because these people are still connected to this country and they are still citizens.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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If they are making decisions, that will have an impact.
Ms Caitriona Nolan:
What if people cannot make decisions? If we want to encourage people to come home, we should allow them the right to vote on who will run this country. They should be allowed to have a say in who is running the country they will come home to. As Ms McLoughlin has said, people come home for all sorts of reasons. I know of several people who have come home to look after sick parents or they just had enough and got homesick. What are they coming home to, however?
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Ms McLoughlin and Ms Nolan are very welcome. They have started an important debate. One of the problems I have, as an Oireachtas Member, is when people are away on holidays at election time and they come to us in their droves to ask whether they can vote. They get really irritated when they learn they cannot do so. In Northern Ireland people can vote while they on holidays.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, they can vote by proxy now.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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We need to start with little things. In Northern Ireland, people can vote while they are away on holidays.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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People can nominate someone else to vote in their place. It is called a proxy vote.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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We should start off by doing little things like that, acknowledging that this is a big issue and the lack of voting rights does frustrate and annoy people. I know it is not the intention of our guests but I want to make it clear that a person who returns from abroad has his or her vote straight away. If a nurse or doctor returns, he or she can go on the register straight away. Somebody who has been gone for less than 18 months can be on the register. I do accept that a lot of the people whom our guests have mentioned are affected and annoyed by this matter.
I wish to mention another aspect. It has amazed me how slow this matter has progressed over the years and I have often wondered why this debate never reached the level that it is at today. Due to the involvement of our guests with this committee and coming in here today this matter will get more of an airing. Why has this matter has not become a really big issue until now?
Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:
I suppose it is there since the 1980s and certainly the 1990s. As I mentioned in my statement, Mr. Henegan had stated that the period could be extended to three years, instead of 18 months, without needing to go to a referendum. I do not know the answer to the Senator's question. The issue probably just lost traction. Perhaps people lost faith in the process because they tried to move things forward several times over the past 20 or 30 years.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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We have local elections, Dáil elections, European elections and presidential elections. With European elections and Irish people living in Europe, you would think they should have a say in who will represent them in Europe. What are the views of our guests on that?
Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:
People should be able to vote if they are in another EU country. People from other European member states are allowed to vote in their embassies here for their European Parliament representatives. Given that is being done, I do not see why the situation cannot be flipped to enable us, as Irish citizens, to vote in those countries at an embassy or a consulate.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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That is a fair point. Reference was made to the logistics. Should voting be done online or should people have to go to an embassy?
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Yes. I mentioned the four categories of elections in this country. If a process were to start with one section of that electorate, where do our guests believe we should start - with Dáil elections, European elections, presidential elections or local elections?
Do they have a preference-----
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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-----just to get it up and running to see how it would work?
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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That is a very good answer.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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When I discussed this before with people, I was surprised by some saying they did not want people who have gone out of the country deciding on their future. However, I do not believe it would be like that.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Maybe what was said about a presidential election, where the electorate would be voting for a figurehead, let us be honest-----
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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That person would not be making Government decisions. The President has to examine and sign off on Bills but he or she is a figurehead.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Maybe we should start there and see how it works.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Before the petitioners go any further, I wish to let them know about the permanent postal or proxy vote. To apply for a permanent postal or proxy vote, one must have a valid reason. It includes the following: illness or disability, being away from home for education reasons, and being away from home for reasons of work or employment. That is the system in Northern Ireland for nominating a proxy to vote on your behalf if you are not in the country.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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That applies only to Defence Forces personnel and such people who are working-----
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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In Northern Ireland, the proxy vote applies to the general public even. I could nominate a family member or somebody in the community-----
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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In the North.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Down here, it applies only to the likes of people in the Defence Forces. They can vote but nobody else can.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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That is the postal vote for Defence Forces personnel who are out of the country.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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It is crazy in that if Martha and I were outside the country at the same time, and I were on holidays and she on business, she could vote while I would not be able to do so. It makes no sense. If you can vote when out of the country for work, why should you not be able to vote if you are out of the country on holiday. There is no difference.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. I would be really interested in what the ladies are saying and maybe starting with the people on holidays and then with presidential elections. That is good-----
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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That is very true.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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That is all I have to ask. It is really progressive that we are having this debate. Well done. I really appreciate it.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Having listened to the petitioners and read the submitted material, I note they have no agenda other than to give people in the Irish diaspora-----
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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-----the right to a voice.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Given the way in which hacking is occurring, do the petitioners believe Internet voting is the safest way to proceed? There is a big possibility of hacking, as we saw in the HSE and elsewhere.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I totally agree.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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There was a Government Bill introduced in 2019 to allow non-resident citizens to vote. That Bill lapsed in 2020 when the Dáil was dissolved. Did the petitioners go to any TD to try to have that Bill reintroduced, or did they just come straight here?
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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There will be a new Dáil soon, so the petitioners should get cracking and get them to bring a Bill forward.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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That might not be until the new year, unless the Senator has a bit of information-----
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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It is still coming.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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It is still coming; I totally agree with the Senator.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I imagine every one of us in this room has had someone belonging to us-----
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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-----in the circumstances in question. We are baby-sitting a dog at the minute for a niece of my wife. She is gone for 18 months. We think she intends to come back, but we are stuck with the dog.
On what the committee can do, we could contact a Minister and try to put on pressure. Everybody here, and most people we talk to, agree with the petitioners that there are appropriate systems available. Given that there are Third World countries in Africa where people queue for days to cast a vote, maybe we can have a system for citizens who have left the country. As Senator Murphy said, if a citizen is gone for 40 years, that is fine, but if the period is 18 months or two or three years, most people at that stage-----
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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At that stage, you will have decided whether you are staying or coming home.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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There is correspondence back from the Department that has been sent to the petitioners. We will not be able to move anything forward until we get correspondence back-----
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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The question is whether we will be able to have another meeting.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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That is up to the Government parties, not Opposition parties.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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In time, it will be appropriate for this committee, or a new one, to write to the Taoiseach, whoever will be Minister for Foreign Affairs and whoever will have responsibility for local government, because the latter, as the Chair knows-----
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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The advice I have been given is that the petitioners should respond to us as quickly as possible so the secretariat can get in touch with the Minister and the Taoiseach. If the committee falls in the meantime, they will know what the response is on whether they need to do anything else and on how to move forward.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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It is up to the petitioners whether to take this advice, but I would wait until people are re-elected or newly elected. When those Members are bedded in, the witnesses can get on to them about this and say it has already been raised with a committee.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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All right.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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One will need the TDs to submit a motion afterwards. However, it should by all means be mentioned to any candidate.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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When somebody is knocking on the petitioners doors, they should ask the questions.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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If we are lucky enough to come back here, we will be fighting the case for the petitioners at this committee.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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There is no politics at this committee. It is very good.
On the response from the Department, reference was made to using MyGovID. It is a matter of putting another line in with a box, with, say, five names-----
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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In March 2017, the then Department of local government and housing and the Department of Foreign Affairs produced an options paper setting out what they called the broad range of options. Options are ideas and solutions but what got me were the references to voting rights, international comparisons, estimated costs and related resource issues, as well as legal, policy, administrative and logistical challenges. I did not see any ideas in it. That is what worried me.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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They listed all the problems and said they did not really want what was proposed.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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To be really honest with everybody, there will be citizens who are vehemently opposed to this.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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There are citizens who agree. I think what the witnesses are doing is very legitimate and we are looking for a way to develop this. Certainly, from what the witnesses are saying to the Chair, they do not want the system abused in any way. I can see from them.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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There are people who will have this opinion that they should not have any say. I want to warn the witnesses about that. It will happen-----
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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-----but I do think a lot of people would be in favour of this. As I said earlier, start off with the holiday issue, and maybe look then at the possibility in a few years of a presidential election on which they can vote - I do not know - but it is well worth following up.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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It is a good step.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I am just looking at some of the correspondence here that I had myself. There are plans to trial Internet voting in Bulgaria. Trials are taking place in Sweden and at local and regional level in Wales. Estonia is the only member state that has fully implemented Internet voting but it has been abandoned in France and the Netherlands, and in Germany, voting machines have been established in court as unconstitutional.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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They are between six or seven different countries.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Pandora's box has been opened.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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If the witnesses get the correspondence back, then the secretariat can start getting that kind of information for them, and see what kind of system is out there that suits the Irish-----
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses have opened that already by even coming in here. We have heard no argument for disagreement with it.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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This is actually now, as we speak, a public forum. It is not a private forum; it is being watched by a number of people.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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We are live on TV.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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The witnesses have made the case very well.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Once that screen comes on you are live.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Do not worry, you are doing perfect.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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They are all at home now looking at you on screen.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Does Ms Nolan know where she is going after this committee meeting?
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Both the witnesses' names are up there in lights.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Have members any other issues?
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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No, just to say that it is opening the door. The witnesses have done that now. They have opened the conversation again. This is a people's forum here. We are probably talking weeks when there will be a change of government. I would encourage the witnesses to come back because a petitions committee will be formed after a new Dáil. It has been trialled. Some places have disagreed and some agreed with it. The witnesses have their evidence-based stuff there already but the big fire they lit in my head was that we have that international site.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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The website is there already.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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We have enough of an IT gang on in this country who are so well-----
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Definitely. Thanks a million to the witnesses for that. I hope they enjoyed their few minutes live on TV.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Do Ms McLoughlin or Ms Nolan wish to say anything else?
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses should email back the correspondence that has been sent to them.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Then we can keep the process moving for as long as we are here.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I was going to say that, Chair. It would be really essential if the witnesses worked towards getting their petitions back in after the setting up of the new committee after the general election.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Any correspondence that comes back may shunt it down a different route of getting what the witnesses are requesting. The quicker we get it back, the quicker the lads can start working on it.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Hopefully not.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I was gone in 2019 for three months before the general election.
I thank Ms McLoughlin and Ms Nolan for coming back in to speak to us today and we will formally consider their petition. We will make the relevant recommendations as soon as we get back.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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We will now suspend the meeting for five minutes to allow the witnesses to leave.