Ms Aideen Carberry:

In respect of Deputy Durkan's point, on the expenditure, we had quite an in-depth conversation about home supports earlier this morning. In the Dublin region in its entirety, home support is provided by way of section 39 organisations. That is still an expenditure incurred by the HSE to provide those hours, but they are not direct employees and we are currently in dispute with that sector in respect of terms and conditions of employment. The expenditure is there to deliver services but they may not be delivered directly by direct employees, for example, by way of the section 39 arrangement or agencies.

There is an acceptance that there has been an increase in expenditure and that there has been an increase in posts. However, our submission endeavours to get members to interrogate some of the figures provided by the HSE and perhaps see that not every area has benefited to the same level. For example, the National Ambulance Service stated that it needed to double its workforce as of February 2023. What we have seen in the HSE's own data is that it has had a reduction in staff since December of last year, wholly brought about by the pay and numbers strategy.