Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I remind members participating remotely that they must do so from within the Leinster House complex. Today's discussion is on unemployment blackspots, that is, spatial areas that have significantly higher rates of unemployment than are seen in neighbouring areas or when compared with national or regional averages. Research has shown a correlation between unemployment and other indicators of disadvantage or poverty and, therefore, the risk of experiencing social exclusion.

The committee is pleased we have the opportunity to consider these matters with representatives from Social Justice Ireland and the Irish National Organisation of the Unemployed, INOU. From Social Justice Ireland, I welcome Ms Susanne Rogers, research and policy analyst, and Ms Mansi Rawat, economic and social analyst, and from the INOU, Ms Bríd O'Brien, head of policy and media.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is important that they comply with any such direction.

The opening statements have been circulated to members. I invite Ms Rogers to make her opening remarks.

Ms Susanne Rogers:

Social Justice Ireland welcomes this opportunity to address the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Ireland's employment landscape has seen remarkable improvement in recent years, with the unemployment rate standing at 4.6% as of quarter 2 of 2024. This indicates a strong recovery in the job market, which has seen the number of people employed rise to 2.75 million, the highest in the history of the State.

While the overall employment data paints a picture of significant progress, the challenges of unemployment, particularly long-term unemployment, and underemployment remain substantial. The reduction in the unemployment rate has not been evenly distributed among demographic groups or regions. Given the current strength of the labour market, major emphasis should be placed on those who are experiencing long-term unemployment, especially those with lower levels of education. Experiences in Ireland and elsewhere have shown that many of those under 25 or over 55 often find it challenging to return to employment after a period of unemployment. We believe that a major commitment to retraining and reskilling will be required in the years ahead.

Youth unemployment remains a major labour market policy challenge, given young people are particularly vulnerable to long-term detachment from the workforce. By the end of 2023, almost 34,000 people under the age of 25 were unemployed, meaning youth unemployment accounted for almost three in every ten unemployed people in Ireland. It is crucial for the Government to invest in the youth unemployed, which, again, we consider to be a central and strategic priority.

Another key group disproportionately impacted by long-term unemployment includes disabled persons or those with long-lasting conditions, as highlighted by the census 2022 data. The data revealed that among those who experienced at least one long-lasting condition or difficulty to any extent, there was a labour force participation rate of 40%. This compares with a rate of 61% for the population at large. Among those found to have a long-lasting condition or difficulty to a great extent, the participation rate was 22%. Additionally, six out of ten persons with a disability who were unemployed were out of work long term. For people experiencing a long-lasting condition or difficulty to a great extent, this proportion increased to 72%.

Alongside the challenges of unemployment, figures also point towards the growth of various forms of part-time work and a high number of underemployed workers over recent years. While the number of people employed is higher now than at any time, just over one in five workers are part time. Almost 140,000 of these are underemployed, that is, working part time but for fewer hours than they are willing to work. The high number of individuals with fewer work hours than is ideal, as well as those with persistent uncertainties concerning the number and times of hours required for work, is a major labour market challenge and one that may grow in the period ahead.

While underemployment and precarious work present challenges across Ireland, these issues are particularly pronounced in certain regions, further highlighting the uneven distribution of economic opportunities. Despite Ireland's overall increase in employment rates, significant regional disparities persist, with lower participation in the Border, mid-west, midlands and south-east. Unsurprisingly, Dublin remains the best performer. It is also interesting to note that the mid-east - essentially, the region that surrounds Dublin - is the only other region where the labour force participation rate is above the national average. This trend is concerning as the national average is artificially dragged up by the Dublin region while much of the rest of the country underperforms by comparison.

These disparities are further reflected in the Pobal deprivation index data, which highlights that “more isolated rural areas situated in the Northwest of Ireland - Donegal and Mayo, as well as parts of Sligo, Cavan, Leitrim, Longford and Roscommon - continue to have higher levels of deprivation than the Southeast”. The index reveals that persistently high levels of disadvantage exist in certain areas, with many disadvantaged regions reporting lower levels of educational attainment and significantly higher levels of unemployment than the national average. These rising disparities were also mirrored in the European Commission’s decision to downgrade the west and north-west to “lagging region” status, reflecting ongoing challenges such as lower disposable incomes, fewer viable farms and less commercial activity, which generates fewer high-value jobs than the other regions.

While there has been a welcome increase in employment nationally in recent years, this has taken longer to spread to the regions and more rural areas. The increase in remote working is a positive move and can revitalise rural economies. However, ongoing challenges, including the development and implementation of an effective rural-proofing model, still have to be addressed. To this end, it is vital that Our Rural Future and Making Remote Work are fully implemented and resourced.

Across Ireland, several key issues contribute to pockets of persistent unemployment and underemployment. While many of these factors are common across both urban and rural areas, rural areas face distinct challenges that compound existing disparities between rural and urban economic opportunities. These issues, such as infrastructural deficits, limited employment sectors, the need for a just transition, skills gaps, the digital transition and the future of work, are covered in more detail in our submission.

Social Justice Ireland believes that if the challenges and needed reforms we have highlighted throughout our submission are to be effectively addressed, the Government and policymakers should do a number of things. They should resource the upskilling of those who are unemployed and at risk of becoming unemployed through integrating training and labour market programmes. They should launch a major investment programme focused on prioritising initiatives that strengthen social infrastructure, including a comprehensive school building programme and a much larger social housing programme. They need to adopt policies to address the worrying issue of youth unemployment. In particular, these should include education and literacy initiatives, as well as retraining schemes. They should establish a new programme targeting those who are very long-term unemployed, in particular those who have been unemployed for more than five years. They should ensure at all times that policy seeks to ensure new jobs have reasonable pay rates and adequate resources are provided for the labour inspectorate. They need to adopt policies to address the obstacles facing women when they return to the labour force, and these should focus on care initiatives, employment flexibility and the provision of information and training. They need to reduce the impediments faced by people with disabilities in achieving employment and, in particular, address the current situation in which many face losing their benefits when they take up employment.

In addition, the following policy positions should be adopted to promote balanced rural and regional development: ensure that investment is balanced between the regions, with due regard to sub-regional areas; ensure rural development policy is underpinned by social, economic and environmental well-being; prioritise the continued roll-out of high-speed broadband to rural areas; invest in an integrated, accessible and flexible rural transport network; ensure that sustainable agriculture policy, sustainable land management and short supply chains for farmers and consumers form the basis of future agricultural policy; ensure that development initiatives resource the areas that are further from the major urban areas to ensure they do not fall further behind; invest in human capital through targeted, place-based education and training programmes, especially for older workers and those in vulnerable employment; establish a just transition and adaptation dialogue to ensure rural areas are not disproportionately impacted by green and digital transitions; prepare for the potential impact of technology on the future of work by investing in the regions and ensuring the necessary social, infrastructural and human capital supports are in place to manage any upheaval; provide integrated supports for rural entrepreneurs, microenterprises and SMEs; and ensure public service delivery in rural areas according to the equivalence principle.

We look forward to engaging with the committee on these issues and discussing our recommendations.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Rogers. I call Ms O'Brien to make her opening statement on behalf of the Irish National Organisation of the Unemployed.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

I am grateful for the invitation to meet the committee on the issue of unemployment blackspots. The submission and presentation focus on the challenges that face people who are unemployed, whether they live in areas that would be deemed unemployment blackspots or face exclusion from, or isolation in, the labour market because of the community they are from or their particular personal or family circumstances or both.

I will not go through all of our submission because we have a time limit but I draw attention to the table on page 3 of the report, which deals with the labour force survey from quarter 2 of 2022, the quarter when the census was taken and the most recent survey from quarter 2 of 2024. The table outlines how people define themselves with regard to principal economic status, which is how the unemployment figures are captured in the census and the labour force survey. What is interesting to note is that 20,000 more people identified themselves as unemployed in the most recent quarter. Then, when we look at how people would be defined by the International Labour Organization, which is the official definition and refers to people who have been actively seeking work in the previous four weeks and are available to take up work in the next two weeks, that figure is almost 6,000 higher in the most recent quarter in comparison to the quarter in which the census was taken. Therefore, while the overall figures have improved, it is interesting to note how people view themselves and, moreover, when we consider how they would be defined according to the ILO definition, the numbers have gone up.

There are three profiles in the census that we feel are important to draw to the committee's attention, although no doubt members are well aware of them. Profile 7 looks at employment, occupations and commuting and at the data on short-term and long-term unemployment and people looking for their first job. This threw up some interesting statistics, some of which were not that surprising. Short-term unemployment was higher among younger people and long-term unemployment was higher among older people and we can see that also carries through in the statistics we get on a more regular basis. When looking at the data from the perspective of the towns, by and large, unemployment was higher in rural towns.

I will move on to the Pobal HP deprivation index. Unfortunately, this was not included in the submission we sent to the committee and I will send it on later. It highlights some of the issues that have been raised concerning the challenges that face people in rural areas, which we are keenly aware of due to the work of our affiliates in those regions, who try to address the issues of unemployment facing the people with whom they are working.

We also included data from profile 5, which covers diversity, migration, ethnicity, Irish Travellers and religion. I would draw the attention of members to that table, which shows that 3,500 Irish Travellers identified as being long-term unemployed out of a working-age population of just under 21,000, which is a much higher percentage than for the overall population. Even though the employment figures were an improvement in this census in comparison to previous ones, I know from previously having worked with the Pavee Point Traveller and Roma Centre, and from engaging with colleagues who work on those issues, that access to employment remains a serious issue for the Traveller community.

Profile 4 covers disability, health and carers and we have pulled out information on the unemployment figures for people with a disability. There is a distinction between people experiencing difficulty “to any extent”, “to a great extent” or “to some extent”, and, not unsurprisingly, those who experience difficulty “to a great extent” have a higher unemployment rate. This highlights the challenge that faces us as a society in trying to create a truly inclusive labour market for people who wish to work, are able to work and can find work that they can access.

The Pobal HP deprivation index is very useful in terms of what it highlights and the detailed information and “smaller community” information that we get from it most of the time – unfortunately, we only get it at the time of the census and not for the rest of the year.

The definition of deprivation that it uses, and the fundamental implication of the term “deprivation”, is of an absence of essential or desirable attributes, possessions and opportunities which are considered no more than the minimum by the society. That is a useful definition to be mindful of as we look at these issues.

When it launched the index, Pobal noted that the majority of communities had seen improvements in employment when compared to population growth. However, it also noted that disadvantaged communities had not seen the same level of improvement, putting those communities further from the average in relative terms, and the number of people living in such communities had increased by over 50,000. It also noted that disadvantaged communities experienced significantly higher levels of unemployment, low educational attainment and higher rates of lone parenthood. Again, these are the areas for which the term “unemployment blackspot” has often been used in the past. Pobal noted that disadvantage is disproportionately experienced in small pockets in Dublin city centre and its northern and western suburbs, on the outskirts of Cork, Waterford and Limerick and in a small number of rural towns. It also noted that urban areas showed a higher proportion of disadvantaged areas and affluent areas, while there tend to be fewer extremes in rural areas.

One of the commitments in Pathways to Work was to reintroduce what it termed an employment and youth engagement charter. We undertook work with a range of young people around the country in preparation for that charter. In response to the questions, the groups discussed what commitments they would like employers to make to help young people to access a good job. The participants suggested that employers should give them opportunities, ensure applications would be welcome from young people without experience, treat young people's applications fairly and treat young staff fairly, which was a big issue in quite a number of the groups, and welcome diversity. The full report is available on our website.

In May of this year, the Ministers, Deputy Heather Humphreys and Deputy Peter Burke, launched the employment and youth engagement charter. Even though it is a youth engagement charter, it has a wider application than just young people and it is also aimed at older people, which is particularly important from a long-term unemployment perspective. The charter contains six options to encourage employers to take advantage of the incentives and supports and encourage them to employ people who are unemployed through schemes like the work placement programme, the JobsPlus scheme and the wage subsidy scheme, which is for people who have a disability. It seeks to encourage them to host events and talk to people about applying for a job and how to write a CV and prepare for interview. Getting a job is a job in itself. Some people are great at it but the vast majority of us are not and we need pointers, advice and help. That is particularly true of people who have tried, had no joy and do not know where they went wrong. It would be good if those who are seeking employees would work with those who are seeking jobs and perhaps give them good advice that could make a difference.

We recently heard from an affiliate who ran a local event and invited 30 people who were unemployed to meet with employers. It was a good event with good engagement and 20 of the 30 people secured employment. When people put in the time and resources, try to focus and have people running events who try to address those issues and make those connections, it can make a big difference.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Ms O'Brien to conclude as the time is up.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

I will leave the members with one point. The introduction of socioeconomic status into our equality legislation would be particularly important. Many of the areas covered by the term “unemployment blackspot” are areas where the people living there experience socioeconomic discrimination. At the moment, they cannot seek redress under our equality legislation.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I invite the members to discuss the issues with the representatives present. I remind those participating remotely to use the raise hand function. I call Deputy O'Reilly.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses. It is nice to see an all-woman panel; we very rarely get that joy here in the committee rooms. They are all very welcome. I thank them for the work they are doing and the information they have provided.

When we talk about the rising tide, it does not necessarily lift all boats, although it may have lifted most. Even where people are employed, there are issues around underemployment, which is something I am concerned about.

I will ask a couple of general questions. Ms O'Brien referred to a local initiative that worked. Will she outline what is working at the moment? I can see this with the small local initiatives in my own area. How would Ms O'Brien connect what is happening locally in order to roll it out nationally to hit those target groups? In referring to unemployment blackspots, it is less about place than it was when I was growing up. It is more about who you are rather than where you are living. Ms O'Brien might talk about what is there at the moment, what is working and how we could roll that out, improve it and get more out of it.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

Among the initiatives that we have noted work well are ones where there are good local relationships and there is a community-based organisation that is working with people who are, say, unemployed or seeking employment, and it has also developed relationships with employers and is in a position to make those connections for people. Among the education and training programmes that we have noted work well, and that have led to people progressing to either further or higher education, training or employment, are ones where the time is taken to ensure that the person who is seeking the place and what is on offer are a good fit. We have noted there are higher retention rates on those programmes and that tends to lead to better outcomes. People are trying to make sure they work with the person and help the person and the group they are part of to progress, and they are also trying to open other doors so there is somewhere to progress to. There are many initiatives that have been great and then, unfortunately, instead of blossoming, they have not got anywhere.

Part of it is around the mainstream taking on board the learning, the approach and how to best use the resources, and really looking at why things worked. The personal relationship and the need for networking is not always appreciated by the system and those who fund some of these initiatives. Without that, it is very hard to connect up the pieces. Those who are excluded or distanced from the labour market need all of those pieces joined together to build those bridges or, otherwise, they do not get the outcomes. That is a critical piece. If people take time at certain points of any programme, it can make a massive difference and we end up with better outcomes.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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The question is how we find those small initiatives and then scale them. How do we make sure that those initiatives find the people who need to be found, who can very often be lost within the system?

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

Again, the need for networking and for people to exchange learning is very important. If people hear that one initiative has worked in County Donegal, could it be applied in County Clare? If something has worked in inner city Dublin, could it be used in Limerick? Those spaces to exchange learning and knowledge are very important. Sometimes particular organisations try to create those opportunities for people to do that networking. However, in terms of it operating across the system, there are gaps around that and around making sure the learning is getting out there. Things are not always adaptable and it can be very particular.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking about where it can be adapted and where we can find that learning.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

Where there are particular characteristics that are quite striking, if we manage to get those right in other areas, it can make a big difference.

Ms Susanne Rogers:

The Deputy referred to the assistance that is given when people have tried and not found work. I remember my own experience of having to go back to what I will colloquially call the dole office after six months to prove that I had been looking for work. I was raging. I went in with this folder of applications that I was not getting any replies to.

I thought I was going to have a fight with the person in the dole office and then, when she realised I was looking for work and was not successful, she asked what the office needed to do to help me. That utterly transformed how I thought she was doing her job as well. It was looking at CV creation, the ECDL and other things. That is a massive part of it but local is everything. When we look at unemployment blackspots, local is the key. As the Deputy said, it is about targeting specific areas. It is a person thing and it is a place thing. We know who the people are and where the places are. It will be about education, childcare and transport. I know myself from periods of unemployment that those were the issues. My skill set, my education attainment levels, my caring duties and where the jobs were versus where I was were the barriers to going back to employment.

When we talk about things like intergenerational transmission of disadvantage, however, I am also conscious of the transmission of occupational advantage. This is a term I came across recently. It is learning how to work and how to labour. It is all of those things such as the transmission, the social networks and how to be in work. As the Deputy said, you watch other people in your community engage in the process. I was struck by that because we would write a lot about the first one but not about the advantage part of it. It is about the local and going back to the SDGs. SDG 8 and all of the SDGs need to be embedded in people's locality. National is fine but we can see from the data that the greater Dublin area is where the jobs are. That is where the high-paying jobs are. As you go further out and further west and north, we need to ask why those opportunity are not there. That is a long rambling answer but-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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That is exactly what we are looking for. It is just more information. Specific groups have been identified in both of the witnesses' presentations, namely, Travellers, lone parents and young people experiencing disadvantage. It is about being able to reach those groups. Both of my constituency offices are located close to the Intreo office. As it happens, I am the only TD in my area with a staffed office so we get a lot of people - tens of thousands - through our door. When you want to be able to help someone and signpost them to go to the right place, it is not always the Intreo office. There are a lot of people who feel very much outside of the mainstream and that is keeping them locked out of employment. What specific barriers can we address? We know for lone parents in particular there are issues around childcare. We are all still waiting for the Scandinavian model that was promised before the supports were slashed. It never arrived. For an awful lot of people, considerations like that are very tough.

Is there anything specifically that can and should be done that is not currently being done to target those groups such as lone parents, Travellers and young people experiencing disadvantage? If I get a chance to come in again, we can talk about underemployment, but for those groups, unemployment is a real and very serious issue. Is there a regional element specifically for those groups? Is it the case that if you are a lone parent living in the west, you are less likely to be employed or fully employed? How does that work? What is Ms Rogers's view on that? How can we target supports directly into those communities that need it most?

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

There are a number of issues that need to be addressed but one I want to raise with this committee, as the enterprise, trade and employment committee, is the issue of discrimination. I am conscious it is often employers and enterprises that come before the committee. It is a reality in our labour market. We tend to sidestep it, not want to discuss it and therefore are failing to address it. That is an issue. Recently, I was at a meeting where there were two Travellers working in a Traveller organisation who were talking about their own and their family members' experience of employment and seeking employment.

It is that whole challenge of having to hide your identity if you wish to be successful, which people should not have to do. There are other people who sometimes feel they need to do that because of their sexual orientation. People with non-visible disabilities often feel under pressure to do that. They are fearful that if they raise it at any stage, it will go against them. Unfortunately, there are plenty of experiences where, when others become aware or if something happens, people find themselves pushed out the door. The issue of discrimination has to be addressed, particularly when it comes to the employment of Travellers and Travellers getting an opportunity to get the good jobs. Also, very often, it is community-based organisations that are critical to that first step for people, be they Travellers, people who have a disability, young people or people who care-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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On that, it is already an offence under the equality legislation to discriminate against a person for membership of the Travelling community. How is adding another ground going to work if it does not currently work? The figures speak for themselves. The levels of unemployment and disadvantage experienced by members of the Travelling community bring shame on the powers that be, we will say. I do not want to personalise the issue but this already catered for in legislation. More has to happen. It cannot just be that. It is already in place and we are looking at figures we should not be looking at. The high representation of Travellers among the unemployed is way out of kilter.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

We need the ground of socioeconomic status. We are keenly aware it is not a magic wand. As we can see from people who are members of the Travelling community and people with disabilities, having a ground in the equality legislation is not a panacea. However, without it, you cannot even get to step one.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I understand.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

We need to encourage employers and get them to step up. Many of them are looking at the areas of equality, diversity and integration, which is welcome. That is why we would like to see socioeconomic status as a ground. That issue is included in all of that work. It needs to go beyond doing something nice to really opening the door for people and letting them into the room. Rather than doing just the corporate social responsibility bit, it is about employers really opening the door and saying to people they will give them a job. They are then one of their employees and people will work to try to ensure no issues arise in the place of work. If issues arise, they will be dealt with appropriately and in good time so that they do not come to a head.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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Issues always arise in the workplace. I was a union official for over a decade. It makes no odds what postcode a person was born in or what box they check. Issues will arise and they can always be dealt with in the workplace.

On that, will Ms Rogers comment on specific groups and exclusion?

Ms Susanne Rogers:

The rates of exclusion of individuals from the disabled community are extraordinarily high. I am conscious that there is a lot of stuff that can be done outside this committee. People should retain their medical cards and travel passes. It is things like that. My cousin has cerebral palsy and is not going to get better. She is a wheelchair user. However, as soon as she got full-time employment, those things were withdrawn. She has been terrified to enter full-time employment.

This is about life-long learning and continuous engagement. Child poverty is damaging throughout a person's lifetime and affects his or her ability to engage with the education system right the way through. I have a teenager in secondary school. The school is super diverse. It is a DEIS Educate Together school in a Dublin suburb. You name it, it is there. It is brilliant. However, there is a struggle to keep students in school for leaving certificate and we can see that the parents who are struggling to keep their children in school are probably the parents who do not have upper secondary or third level education themselves. It is the continuation of the story and trying to break that.

As to what the point is and why people would bother, I have here a piece from the Youth Council which I printed off for another reason.

Its report on the lives of Irish 18- to 29-year-olds in a financial context shows that in a person's late teens and early 20s, optimism prevails. We might have received our degree, left school and done all these things, and then the reality of the situation comes as a surprise to many. The report shows that the notion of hard work and education as a surefire path to achieving financial goals is being questioned by this generation. It is all linked in.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Rogers.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for the presentations. I would like to explore some of the existing supports and what exactly can be done to improve them. It seems that on schemes such as community employment, CE, Tús and the new work placement programme, there are vacancies and take-up is not very high. What is the misfit or what redesign requirements are needed with some of them to address that? Judging by what the witnesses said, there is a high concentration of people with lower educational achievement living remotely, such as lone parents, those with a disability or Travellers. What is needed to adapt what we have in the armoury or to change some of those existing programmes? That might give us a foothold in making concrete recommendations.

The focus of this meeting is on unemployment blackspots and there is substantial evidence that, in certain communities, cycles of deprivation are the root cause of low educational achievement from generation to generation. My area has been very successful with the early school area-based childhood, ABC, programme in Darndale, and the DEIS programme has tried to concentrate resources. New approaches are being adopted in some of these areas, such as more bottom-up approaches to community development. Are there better models of international good practice that could help us address some of these specific unemployment blackspots we continue to have within our communities? There seems to be something of a misfit although I know there are other issues, such as those relating to substances and so on.

I would be interested in exploring corporate social responsibility and the growth of that. To what extent is it being harnessed to address access for people with disabilities, Travellers or people with a low level of education? Is there an opportunity in that regard? Have any companies put in place good codes that we could try to have replicated in other companies? I know that, under corporate responsibility, companies sign up to plastic pledges and carbon pledges. Perhaps there could be some sort of a pledge in this area. Are there many of those?

The witnesses spoke about community hubs being a better route in, which I welcome. Will they cite one or two examples of good community hubs that have been successful in communities that are at risk? How could they be mainstreamed?

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

As for existing supports, the work placement experience programme came into being at the height of Covid, when everyone thought unemployment would remain high. Covid was a very good example of giving people a proper payment when they were unemployed whereby if employment opportunities reopened, people would go back to work. There were 10,000 places, which, being realistic at this stage, will not be filled. In many ways that is welcome because, we hope, it means people are getting employment. Under the most recent figures, we were heading towards 1,000 places on it, so it is improving.

It could be helpful to open the door for people for whom the door is otherwise firmly closed. It is again about trying to make that connection between employers who are willing to give an opportunity and the person then availing of that opportunity and establishing themselves, which we would hope would lead on to a job.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Are there no drivers in that regard?

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

The employer relations unit in the Department of Social Protection is the driver of that, and it is a key part of the employment and youth engagement charter. The Department’s target is to have 300 employers sign up to it. The previous time there was a such a charter, there was a focus on getting the signatures, but the important bit relates to how to get people into employment and get them to act on it, that is, not just making a pledge or signing the charter but opening the door for people, which is what we would like to see.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Is there no follow-up on the charter? If an employer signs up, does no one chase that up?

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

We are hopeful and we will certainly keep an eye on it and try to encourage follow-up. The Department is aware that, on the previous occasion, there was not follow-up, so it is determined there will be this time, but it is still early days. It was launched only in May. If this committee is speaking to employers, it would be great if it encouraged them to sign up, but the next step is the crucial bit, perhaps even going beyond that. The six steps in the charter are not especially ambitious but at least they are a start. If we could get a start and move beyond that, that would be helpful.

The general branch of our organisation, which deals with the mechanism through which unemployed people participate in the organisation, is running a call for people who are not on a payment to be able to access community employment and sign on for credits. That was introduced this year and members feel it would be great to see that also happen on Tús. We have had inquiries from affiliates that work with people from Ukraine who are wondering now, with the change in their status, whether they will be still able to access programmes such as community employment in Tús. At our most recent annual delegate conference, a member of the community was there and felt that some of those programmes would be great for opening the door for people and helping them to be able to work in their local communities and build relationships. Again, looking at some of the eligibility criteria for some programmes would be helpful, as would ensuring the top-up payment will be improved, which is another issue that has arisen. Even if someone lives in an urban area where there is public transport, the cost of getting from where you live to where the opportunity is can be a challenge for people.

It is also about doing work because, at times over the years, some of those programmes have not had a great reputation in the wider labour market, even though people often do very good work on them. It would be nice to see that issue addressed such that the skills people develop and the work people do would be acknowledged and act as a stepping stone into the wider labour market. That again would be a useful step up.

Community organisations are critical and are often the only access point to the labour market for many people from disadvantaged backgrounds, but it is about how we get people from that opportunity into the wider labour market. In some cases people may get work in those organisations and get a fully paid job, which is wonderful. Ensuring those organisations are also well resourced in order that they can develop their work is critical.

Community-based education is a critical provider for people. First-chance education may not have been a great experience and people may have left school early or with a leaving certificate that may not get them a place, so community-based education and adult education are also important supports for people. It is again about trying to make some of those connections. I am often struck that, when we talk about the labour market, we talk about the supply side and too infrequently talk about the demand side. There is a presumption that employers who are looking for employees know where they are, and I am not sure that is always correct. We read about employers saying the leaving certificate is too academic, yet some of the alternatives, such as the leaving certificate applied, do not carry the same weight in the labour market.

It is about highlighting some of the alternative routes to education and qualifications, and making sure there is a good understanding in the wider labour market among employers as to what they are and mean, because it may be that the skills the person has learned there are far more appropriate to the job the employer wants to fill. Resolving some of those communication aspects would be a make a big difference to people.

Ms Susanne Rogers:

One of the statistics I found, although I do not recall where, showed that the long-term unemployment rate at the moment is 1%, a record low level. We are talking about a tiny cohort, so it should be possible to target them and put in those supports. These are small numbers but, as Ms O'Brien said, it is about preventing that for generations who are coming through. On the radio earlier, there was a discussion on the rise in insolvencies among small and medium enterprises in retail and hospitality, which the CE scheme links into. Those are usually the sorts of skills people are being provided with in that area.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

It is broader than that.

Ms Susanne Rogers:

It is not much broader, however.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

I think it is. It depends.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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We can have only one speaker at a time.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

Apologies.

Ms Susanne Rogers:

Increased payments would go a long way towards enticing people in this regard, but it is about the skills people learn as they work. Learning to work is hard, and being with other people in an enclosed space for 40 hours a week is a skill in itself. Learning to work, timekeeping and so on are soft skills that are transferable across jobs, but the skills people learn on these schemes need to link up with jobs that are in the areas. When I think of the parts of rural Ireland where my family are from, with the best will in the world, there will be limited employment opportunities in these small communities although remote working hubs are going in, which could revolutionise the access. As Ms O’Brien suggested, if someone comes from a small rural place, they may go on to third level and have to decide whether they can stay in Dublin or go home and bring those skills back with them. It is the community aspect time and again. These are localised issues that can be dealt with locally when we look at resource centres, community hubs and remote working hubs.

For us, it will always go back to that education aspect and the poverty aspect as well. If someone grows up in poverty, it is very difficult to become job ready. Even with the jobseeker's payment, if we lose our job in the morning and are out of work for six months, it will be hard to have a suit, or even just a suit jacket for a Zoom interview. I am helping somebody at the moment to look for work and it is really hard. It is all online and there is no buying the Evening Herald or the Irish Press. It is all online and registering for portals. It is a complicated process. If a person's peer groups, community and family are not linked to work, there may be nobody to show them how to get a job. Career guidance counsellors in school are fine, but it is the mechanics of getting a haircut or a suit jacket, being able to spell and type and so on. All those things are difficult, and while most of us rarely write any more, depending on the type of job someone is applying for, most employers will look for at least basic literacy and numeracy.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I am glad we are having this hearing because the newspaper headlines these days typically suggest that Ireland is at full employment, that everyone who wants a job can get one and so on. As we know, however, the reality is quite different for a considerable number of people who would like to work but are not necessarily looking for work because of various factors in their lives. There are also people who are looking for work but, as has been articulated, find that a challenge.

My first question relates to the engagement between long-term unemployed persons and the formal skills training infrastructure that exists.

The reason I raise that is I am struck by the Dublin construction skills programme that is run out of Dublin Port, which I am sure the witnesses are familiar with. It is a fantastic programme because it effectively takes a whole variety of people and no questions are asked about background. People go in there and do a course for three weeks to then go on to become a general operative. It has since been extended to contract cleaning. In some ways, the beauty of the programme is that people turn up on a Monday morning and are there for only three weeks. There is no big application process to join. Engaging with that programme has got me thinking about the hoops we put people through to apply for formal and structured training. It is striking that Carlow ETB is now funding this programme. I would like to hear the witnesses' views about whether other such programmes throughout the country are the type of programmes we need or whether the formal structured programmes are what are necessary in order to give people those letters after their name, or to have that certificate in their hand to secure long-term sustainable work.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

I presume the Senator is referring to the programme St. Andrew's Resource Centre is involved in?

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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Exactly, in Dublin Port.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

That is the critical piece. The work that Mr. Jim Hargis and his colleagues do is critical to that programme. It is very much working with people for whom a long-term programme would not be an attraction. It is very much catering for how to best link available employment with a cohort of people seeking employment. That is an excellent example of something developed locally that is working very well.

At our recent annual delegate conference and other online events we organise, the issue of training is quite interesting. Some people are for the short, focused, snappy programme and other people prefer the longer one. Again, it will depend on the person, the community and the opportunities that are available. It is around making sure that we take the time, that we are matching people up with the right opportunity, and that it is leading somewhere. If it is not leading somewhere, then at least the person should appreciate and get the opportunity to develop other skills and confidence so that maybe the next step will be the programme that will help him or her to get the job.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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Do we have the right mix of formal structured training and less formal training, which keeps people there for three weeks and then they get into the right place?

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

We probably have too many courses that run throughout the academic year. We are short of ones that are the type the Senator described, which can run on a needs or demand basis. We need more flexibility within the system. We need to get a better handle on what works and on what we need to do and where.

We are concerned, as are a good number of our affiliates, that much of the focus is on QQI level 5 and up, when an awful lot of people who are more distanced from the labour market are somewhere between QQI levels 1 and 4. It is about making sure, while the needs of the overall labour market have moved up, that we do not leave an entire group of people behind. In our efforts to become more modernised and to make sure people have the right skills and are adaptable, which is all very right and proper, we should not end up creating further exclusions. Working on levels QQI 1 to 4 is also very important.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I am conscious of my time. I will move to my second question. Looking at who is unemployed, and this was reflected in both submissions, Travellers, migrant workers and black workers in this country are the most disadvantaged when seeking employment. What are the representatives' views on socioeconomic status? Ms O'Brien mentioned this. We are fully supportive of it being in the equality Acts and are a little frustrated at the delay to the review of those Acts.

How does she see it being enforced or implemented? Is it through litigation that it will have an impact? Are there other mechanisms? I am conscious when I say all this that a number of organisations, such as Open Doors and others, do fantastic work in trying to match employers with the hardest to employ and those most distant from the labour force. This is particularly important in respect of socioeconomic status. I would like to hear from the witnesses how they think it will work in practice.

Ms Susanne Rogers:

It is a difficult one to answer. This morning there was a news headline about migrant workers being abused. One individual had worked 48 days straight. That is where somebody is being disadvantaged and discriminated against. That is very clear-cut but it is also about the slights, people not putting their full address on their CV or their accent. It underpins all the other reasons people are not getting a callback for a job or to view an apartment. It is a difficult one to pin down. It is one I think a lot about. We are part of the organisations that are plugging and lobbying for socioeconomic status to be legislated for but it will be a difficult one to pin down.

It goes back to meeting people where they are at. Going back to the community training piece and education, people will say, "That's not for the likes of me.", but it is about saying something else is for them and they can do that. Sometimes, we seem to be asking people to transform themselves and become completely different, saying that what they are doing now is not good enough, is not right and they need to go and be better educated and get a better job, as opposed to saying that where they are is perfectly fine and asking them how we can help them flourish within that space. There can sometimes be a little bit of "We know what's best for you" and "We think you should". Those short programmes that meet people in the space they are at would be very beneficial.

The tenth ground of discrimination underpins all the others. The odds are that sometimes there will be discriminations that people experience that they may think are based on some of the others, but the core of it is down to where they are being viewed, and we are not supposed to have a class structure in this country, in the class structure. That is the key piece where they are being discriminated against.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

It is not an either-or. We need both. To address some of the exclusions in the labour market and some of the appalling experiences in the labour market, we need proper enforcement of law. We also need policies and practices that set out to try to address these issues constructively so it does not get to litigation or somebody having to be hauled over the coals and reminded that they cannot treat somebody like that. It is a combination of push and pull.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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It probably points to the need for trade unions within a workplace and to be able to access a trade union in a workplace. I am out of time.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I will return to the issue of exclusion and those groups in particular. It is something that we keep coming back to, for good reason. I note Social Justice Ireland stated that there has to be "a major commitment to retraining and re-skilling". I do not want to put words in anyone's mouth, but some of that retraining and reskilling has to involve employers, human resource managers and the reframing of how we think about people who are in the groups that are highest represented among the unemployed. On what we can do, is it a case of incentivising employers to take on people from this group?

Is it a case of punishing employers who do not take people on from this group?

What are the witnesses' thoughts on the role the State plays? The State is a massive employer, but it often fails in its obligations. That is no criticism of any one Department or group. There are plenty of people who are working hard to try to make their workplace a little bit more diverse. There are many barriers, however. For example, the supports falling off a cliff edge if you get a job is huge for many people, while lack of affordable childcare is a bigger issue for lone parents. Where do the witnesses see it? Is it carrot or stick? Should the State be doing more to lead? If the State, as a massive employer, has to do more, the targets are there but they are not often met. I do not put that at the door of any particular human resource manager. I am just wondering what can be done. As I said in my opening remarks, if the rising tide does not lift all ships, you have look at what the ships that have not been lifted need.

Ms Susanne Rogers:

I think that is it. It as if I am on the beach watching the ships go out. I was at a local authority - a county council - recently. We were looking at making a presentation on the first floor. There was a big discussion about the lift, which we did not think was wide enough for wheelchair access. The question then was whether there was nobody working there who was in a wheelchair? Probably not. Our basic infrastructure is not geared up to it. It is exactly that, though. What you will find is that disabled people work for disabled persons organisations and Travellers tend to work for Traveller organisations, for example. We are getting a lot of that. The employment opportunities tend to be within those smaller communities. It is about trying to widen that out. It is about meeting people where they are as well. I am very conscious of that. If somebody turns around to me and says, “What you need to do now is get a masters and do this, that and the other”, I think, “Leave me alone. I am grand where I am. Thanks very much." It is about where people want to be. As a State employer, that building was not compatible to employing people who needed wheelchair access.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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It is no surprise that there is nobody in a wheelchair in employment there because they would not be able to work.

Ms Susanne Rogers:

They would not be able to work there. I refer to basic infrastructure. As the Deputy said, I genuinely believe people are trying to do their best by all of their communities. That is why the members are here. They represent the people who put them in these chairs. At the same time, if somebody physically cannot get into the building, there are big questions to be asked. The Deputy commented about the all-female panel. We do not want to get into tokenism. At the same time, we are not homogenous. We do not represent women across the country either.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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No, and we are not putting that on the witnesses’ shoulders. I remarked on it because it is very rare and it was nice to see.

Ms Susanne Rogers:

It is a combination of all those things. As the Deputy said, we are at a time of full employment, when the rhetoric is now, “Why can you not get a job?”, and that this must be a deliberate decision people are making. I have concerns about the upcoming announcements next Tuesday as to where all that will go.

It will have to be all of those things. It also goes back to the first five years of a person's life - early childhood and the supports there. I have mentioned child poverty a couple of times. For me, it begins there. The odds of a person working and the type of jobs people have as teenagers, in their 20s and in their 30s is probably largely defined by their first five years. This needs to be the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and early childcare so that members are not sitting here in 15 or 20 years’ time discussing the same people entering into long-term employment.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

The State has a big role to play because it is a big employer, and a big employer with a reasonable geographic spread as well. The State, in order to be fair, has particular recruitment processes. However, as we try to address issues of exclusion and inequality and come to terms with the issue of diversity, some of those recruitment processes might need to be revisited.

There have been initiatives where, for example, the State has given people from the Traveller community short-term opportunities. It was probably more than 15 years ago. It worked well and people got a good experience. Likewise, in south County Dublin, opportunities were created in the office for some members of the community and then likewise among the general operatives. The State has in the past undertaken work. It will be important for the State to lead by example and then encourage other employers. Through the years, I have been struck by how many times a variety of people have said the State is not an employer. The State is an employer, and a very critical one. It could make a difference and help to open doors for people. The State could look at how it could be done and get the nuts and bolts of it to deliver.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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It needs to drive it. Many Traveller organisations and disability representative groups receive State funding and employ people from their own community. That is not where our focus should be, however. Our focus needs to be on ensuring that people enter the broader workforce as well. Obviously, these organisations need staff, and staff with experience and life experience is really important, but there has to be a focus on broadening that out as well.

Sorry, Chair. I am conscious my time is up.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for the work they are doing and for being here. Apologies for being late. I had a Topical Issue in the Chamber and had to be there during the initial part of the witnesses’ presentation. I hope they understand and I apologise.

Senator Sherlock mentioned the Open Doors Initiative. I am on the board of that initiative. It is an employers-led organisation. We do quite an amount of work helping employers, first of all, to engage people from a marginalised background, and also helping refugees, asylum seekers, migrants, people with disabilities, disadvantaged youth, Travellers, Roma, people with LGBTI issues, people who have a criminal past, and intersectionality between those groups, to get jobs. I am not sure if the groups in front of us have engaged with the Open Doors Initiative but it is employer-led and it is really trying.

Last year we issued more than 40,000 work permits, bringing people in from abroad. We are technically at full employment. Beyond full employment is a term that has been used recently. It is timely we are discussing the issue of people who are finding it hard to get jobs.

I have a sticky question to ask. I met an employer recently who was frustrated because he had offered a job to three people. The job was way above the minimum wage and not onerous work but they all refused. They did not want to take the job. I tabled a parliamentary question yesterday and got a response. I wanted to know what happens if people refuse work and so on. I was told that this year to date, 7,294 people have received penalties from the Department of Social Protection for not engaging with the employment services or not taking up offers of employment. Last year, the number was 5,000, so this year so far, the number is up. Why might that be the case? Has any research been done into why such numbers of people are still refusing jobs and refusing to work at a time when employers are frustrated trying to get people to work for them and they are coming to us, begging for work permits? What can be done about that?

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

For all the employers who could come forward and say they cannot get employees, I think we could all come forward with people who say that the employers will not employ them. It is a two-way street. It can be a variety of things. It can be that perhaps people are not sure the employment will last. For example, if they move off a welfare payment into employment, what will happen if the employment does not work out? One of the things that might help with that issue is reassurance from the Department that if things do not work out, the person can revert easily. For some people, their only source of income may be their welfare payment and they know what it is, but if the job on offer is on an hourly basis, they might not know what their income will be from week to week. If these people live in a household where it is the second or third income coming in, they can probably take that risk. However, if they are the only person in that household or the primary income in that household, people are sometimes fearful that if they take the job and it does not work out or they do not get the hours they are expecting, they will not have the income, so where will they be then?

That can sometimes be the range of challenges facing people. There is a payment called the payment pending wages. It used to be on the Department's website. We tell everybody about it because it is really important, especially if somebody is going from a welfare payment that is inadequate to a wage that might be adequate if they knew what it was going to be for certain. However, if they are going from a weekly payment and the wages are every two weeks or monthly there can be a gap. That can be an important reassurance for people that if they take that step they will not be left high and dry for a week. We see that as a small investment by the State. It might help that person make that move and then the hope is the State might not see them back again until they are looking for their pension. We feel that could make a difference. Likewise, we could reassure people who are in receipt of a medical card that if they have been long-term unemployed and take up work, they can hold onto the card for up to three years. Again, that message does not get out there to the extent it does-----

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for interrupting but my time is limited and I would like to hear from the other witnesses. What Ms O'Brien is saying is really interesting and I would like to get more engagement from her on why people refuse employment or do not engage with the services. Has any research in that regard been done among that group of people? Is there something that can be done there? It is a different Department from the one we are shadowing, but it has an impact on our Department at the same time because employers very often tell us they find it hard to get workers.

Ms Susanne Rogers:

I have only read research from the UK. I have definitely seen reports from there on exactly what Ms O'Brien was saying. Obviously benefits are different, but once a person is on an allowance payment and looking for work - jobseeker's benefit is also reliant on the person looking for work but there is not quite as much checking in - in the UK the pressure was to take any job. There definitely has been research done on that. Once a person is into that sort of system they need to be seen to be looking to work and there is pressure to take any job. I was looking at the same sort of things, such as whether the thresholds for housing or other supports are a barrier and, as Ms O'Brien said, the move from a weekly social welfare payment to a monthly wage. It is about those kind of issues.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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It concerns me that so far this year more than 7,000 people have found themselves in that position. What I am hearing is there is a lack of co-ordination, lack of information, uncertainty, lack of confidence and all that kind of stuff, but the number is going up from last year and it is a concern if people are refusing jobs. They are accepting penalties as well. They are being penalised, so the payment they are getting is either stopped completely or reduced dramatically. That is what "penalty" means, I take it.

Ms Susanne Rogers:

Yes. It defies logic.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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It does.

Ms Susanne Rogers:

We both sit here and say core social welfare rates are inadequate to provide for a basic standard of living, therefore a wage must be and should be higher, so it does not make sense for somebody to say they will remain on social welfare and not take the job.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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These are the figures I got from the Department yesterday, so they are very current. It is also very frustrating for employers that are screaming for workers and have offered someone a job to have that person refuse it for whatever reason.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

We also need to bear in mind that the number has increased in the last year but, compared with the number of people on a jobseeker's payment and moving through that system, it is a very small fraction.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I agree.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

There are hundreds of thousands moving through that system.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but it is still growing and this is only September.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

Better information, more timely supports and reassuring people - basically helping them to make that move - would help. If somebody has children and they are concerned that from a family perspective it might not work out, they should be informed of the working family payment and we should ensure people get access to that in a more timely fashion. An issue raised with us by one of the lone parent organisations is whether people can access the working family payment if they have been offered a zero-hours contract. The payment should be based on the number of hours a person is working but if there is uncertainty about that, it could again be a challenge. There are those little pitfalls in the system. Somebody might be thinking that they know where they stand now and if they make that move they are not so sure. They are wondering whether there will be a large hole under the welcome mat if they go in that door and where will they end up. That is a big issue for people.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I will be quite brief because a number of the questions I was going to ask have been asked already and there is no point in repeating them.

Ms Rogers said long-term unemployment is only at 1%, which is a record low. That is fantastic. Now is the perfect opportunity to delve into that and find solutions and things we could do. Disability was touched on as well. We have the lowest employment rate for people with disabilities in the EU. I think it is below 30% when most European countries are at 50%. Many employers take on people with disabilities for ten or 12 weeks for a training programme but do not retain them, especially people who are visually impaired. I think the rate for them is at 10%. It is extremely low. What do we need to do there to improve that for them?

There have been many changes in the workforce in the past four or five years. We are talking about groups the normal 9-5 does not suit, especially single parents. In the past five years we have had working from home and flexibility with work, which has all been extremely positive. Are the witnesses concerned in the last few weeks or months to read stories about companies now looking to go back to five days a week, pushing people to come back and enticing them by having dinners and lunches on certain days of the week to try to get them back in? It is all essentially to try to get people back in for five days a week. Do the witnesses see a long-term problem with that for minority groups or certain people it does not suit?

Ms Susanne Rogers:

The digital transition could be an enormous opportunity for those furthest removed. At the height of Covid we had all these headlines in the Financial Times and The Guardian about digital nomads. To be a nomad and able to work from anywhere would provide capacity for our Travelling indigenous population to be trained up to be able to work from anywhere. There is definitely something that could be harnessed in that space. The return to the office is more about the value of office space, the devaluing of office space and people in the city than it is about needing people to be in at a particular place and time. At a time of full employment, if an employer was to turn around and tell people they needed to be back in five days a week they would be asking whether they really did and be looking somewhere else.

There are opportunities for employers and employees to be more flexible. I am always conscious there are some people for whom, as the Senator said, the 9-5 is never going to work. Their lives are maybe slightly chaotic or they are in vulnerable situations. It is about meeting people where they are at. There is something that can be harnessed in that digital transition space. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, as a policy analyst who will be replaced with ChatGPT before too long, this is a matter of what kind of skills people have that are saleable and long lasting. It is about those communities, such as the disabled community mentioned by the Senator, as well as our migrant population and Traveller population. The digital space could be absolutely transformative by enabling working from home.

From being at events, we are seeing more and more young people with disabilities going through third level and then nothing. The third level system is now geared towards a much more diverse student population, which is to be welcomed – we are some of the best-educated people in Europe – but then graduates with disabilities have nowhere to go with those skills. There is a definite gap there as they transition. On office space, I appreciate these are the types of jobs that are probably more high-end, but not necessarily. There is still data entry work, sales order processing and all of that and it does not necessarily need to be done in the warehouse; it could be done somewhere else. If employers can be clever and savvy, there is potential in that digital space for disadvantaged communities.

That is a space for schools and third levels. The CE schemes and employment schemes give people those kinds of tools. There are opportunities there, no doubt. I do not think I have answered the question, but there you go.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

The long-term unemployment figure of 1% comes from the official definition of unemployment. That is the ILO one that you have to have been seeking work in the past four weeks and available for work in the next two weeks. It is useful to look beyond that figure. The data collected in the census concerns principal economic status. That figure tends to be higher. Likewise, looking at the potential additional labour force, there are people who did not answer "Yes" to one or both of those questions. The problem with exclusion from the labour market and people being distanced from it is often broader than that statistic. It is great to see it where it is but-----

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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If unemployment was high, those figures would be high too, so, irrespective, everything is at a record low. The point I am making is not that this is brilliant but that there is an opportunity to delve into what we need to do to improve opportunities for those people in that 1% or more than 1% cohort.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

Absolutely. I fully agree that now is the time. In the past when figures came down, we did not address those issues. We sailed on and left people behind. Now is the time when we need to do that. It is interesting that some huge employers are talking about trying to get their workforces back. It will be interesting to see if the State does that. I am still struck when I go to meetings that people are clearly in their own homes and not in their offices.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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With most local authorities, there is allowance for two days per week at home. That is most public sector jobs.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

It is a pattern that could help people for whom transport is an issue, whose workplace is not accessible or who have other responsibilities to balance. Others like to go into the office so that when they leave the office or place of work, work is left behind and home is home. There can be downsides to it as well. I wondered if it would arise that if an employer expects people to work from home, does the employer not have to provide the wherewithal to do the job? Is the employee expected to rock up with whatever is required to do the job? There are two sides to that one and it will be interesting to see how it evolves. Digital working could create a more inclusive labour market. We went from it not being a runner to seeing it could work during Covid; now it looks like we are beginning to drift back to "We can't be having any more of that". We need to strike a balance. It could help some people manage, be included and work on their own terms, which would be very helpful.

Matt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
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My apologies, I had to step out but I got the opening statements and some of the discussions. I thank the representatives and their respective groupings for the important work they are doing. It is an interesting conversation in terms of where Ireland is at present and the changing demographics in the country. It has been highlighted in the two reports I have read and in the opening statements that demographics and location play a role. Some Pobal reporting has been around uneven regional balance and the need for investment and equitable investment in the regions, which I have been championing since I came in here. It is needed.

I ask about the idea of trying to reactivate people into employment. To be employable, you have to be able to offer something to an employer, obviously, because you are exchanging your time for the employer's money. The issue concerns what skills people can offer and the skills gap, which appears to me to be a very big part of the problem when trying to reactivate people into employment. There has been discussion about education, training and job supports.

When people fall out of education early - which, while not the same problem it was years ago, is still prevalent - and end up not going into trades or finding themselves, they may have low skills and be in significant danger in the future, particularly as the technology gap widens in service work. What is happening in community education, onward education and informal education? What are the witnesses positive about in that space? What is having an impact and helping reactivate people in long-term unemployment?

Ms Susanne Rogers:

From other organisations we link in with across the adult and community education space, we know there is incredible work being done. Ms O'Brien hit on a key point. This is not about bringing everybody up to PhD level or making sure everybody is educated to third level; this is about bringing people to their maximum level and allowing them to go at their pace to the place they need to be. I see great work across the sector concerning the conversation around being an adult and acknowledging that a lack of literacy and numeracy skills gets in the way of being able to engage with the community and in certain processes. There is less and less shame and stigma attached to reaching out for help, which is massively important. It is not a big deal to go back to a night class or go back to do the leaving certificate. There are community-friendly supports. Meeting people where they are in their communities is key. I see great work being done in that space. Hopefully, fewer people will fall out of the education system in the next ten, 20 or 30 years. We are trying to keep young people in education to leaving certificate level or move them on through apprenticeships and stuff like that. I see the challenges in my school community with kids who just want to be gone and can probably pick up a little job somewhere, which is fine at 17 but at 57 is a whole different conversation. There is good work being done on recognising the skill sets we need are shifting and on meeting people's needs now for the digital transition.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

There is quite a bit going on. Our organisation runs two local training initiatives and the target group is people who are long-term unemployed and distanced from the labour market. I have been struck by some people who left school early, may have had addiction issues and, in their late 30s, secured their first job or moved on to further or higher education and training. We are not alone in doing that work. There is a lot happening in community organisations and communities. There is provision through further education and training providers and ETBs. Some of it is around ensuring there is good understanding in the wider labour market of what people do through community education, the skills they pick up, the learning they get and what the different levels of QQI mean. If people have been through it themselves, they have an understanding, but for those who have done their leaving certificate and gone on to college or into employment, I am not sure there is a good enough grasp of the alternative routes in the wider community. That can impact when people try to progress from some training and education opportunities into the wider labour market. There is a body of work to be done to ensure there is good appreciation of that, particularly when people do courses that are very relevant to job opportunities out there.

To make sure we get that message out is important.

For people who have been out of the labour market, who are quite isolated because of where they live or who have lost confidence because they feel they do not have the resources and have not been out and about, community education opportunities can be great, if even just to help people to start to build those skills again and start to get out into the wider world and progress from that.

Matt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
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I want to make a point that has probably been made a number of times already. The welfare trap and the reliance on welfare is now juxtaposed with the cost of employment. The entry-level costs of employment for an employer taking on somebody, regardless of what role the person is in, means that person has to return value to the employer. That is going to be difficult with people who have a very low skill set. Ms O'Brien touched on a very important point, which is confidence. The confidence of people who have been out of the workforce for any length of time is probably shot, to be frank, and there is the whole peer pressure of trying and failing.

One of the groups that I know well is the men's shed, which does tremendous work for people who are retired. The great boon of all of that is being in there among your peers, feeling that you are giving something back and that you are of use. That is all very good from a mental health point of view. Is it something we should look at in terms of trying to activate the longer-term unemployed and having some outreach in communities where the long-term unemployed could come together? We know the Barack Obama message, “Yes, we can.” It is about giving back to people the idea that it does not matter if they have been disengaged for a certain amount of time, if they are not quite literate or if their skill set is not up to par. There is somewhere for them to go, a place where people can get together as a group to try to motivate themselves.

A big problem for people who are long-term unemployed is that the motivation is no longer there. They are stuck in a poverty trap or social welfare trap. The motivation is not there and it just seems like something they cannot take on. We need to do a lot of work to try to instil confidence and give people mentorship and leadership to encourage them to realise that everybody has unique talents and abilities. It is about finding a way of trying to direct those. Ms O’Brien might have some ideas on how we might achieve that.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

Community employment schemes, Tús schemes and rural social schemes can play an important role in addressing the issue the Deputy has just raised and they are important in terms of helping people to engage with the wider community. It is about how the system engages with people and gives them the opportunity to have that engagement, as well as to support people. There are men's sheds around the country that are there for people who are unemployed and other community organisations where people can meet and discuss issues. Supporting those spaces is very important so people can discuss and address their own issues and engage in an activity. For men, engaging in an activity seems to be a key part of it, and the issues flow through that. That type of work is going on and continuing to support it is important. To further those supports would be welcome.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I want to pick up on two issues. Ms O'Brien spoke about people who want to work but cannot, and it is important to quantify that. The CSO says the figure was 15.1% in quarter 2 of 2024 and that figure has been rising, if we look at the annual average since 2022. We might talk about the number of people who are signing on but there is a much larger part of the potential labour force, some 15%, who say they would like a job if they could get it. We all know people with caring responsibilities, who have a block to getting childcare or who have a disability, or whatever it may be in their lives.

I am glad that Senator Ahearn brought up the issue of remote and flexible work because there is a real concern in that regard.

The availability of flexible and remote work could be a real passport into the workplace for those with a disability, lone parents and people who are cut off from the labour force, but there is no real right to flexible or remote work for the vast majority of workers in this country.

I have a question on employer processes. It is a while since I last applied for a job but people who have been out of the labour force for a period or who have gaps in their employment history have told me about the online application systems. I was struck by one example from Fingal County Council. A person was applying for a job with the council and a question they had to answer was why there was a gap of 950 days in their employment history. The person was at home with a small child for a period of years and, in a very direct question, was asked to account for that gap. This may apply to men also but I am thinking in particular of women who have been out of the workforce for a while and then come across an application like that. They would run for the hills because they think they are going to be judged because of the gap. I would like to hear more from the witnesses about the online application processes that are now in place for most jobs. What sort of deterrents exist? How can we improve online application processes so people with gaps in their history are not deterred from applying?

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

We need to look at how people apply for jobs, what is expected of them and what they need to answer. People should have the opportunity to do preparation work if there is a gap. Those who have been at home minding family or caring for somebody might or might not feel that is legitimate, and some might think it would go against them if they put it down. However, if somebody has been out of work for 950 days, they are sure that if they put down that they were unemployed, it will definitely go against them. We need to look at that. It is a concern among many of our affiliates that with the world moving online, and with the bots making decisions, if people do not put in key words or if they have put in other words, it means they will definitely find themselves outside the door.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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That is what I am driving at. We know that artificial intelligence is used widely in the screening processes for recruitment and, in particular, we have seen there is significant racial discrimination in online recruitment processes. I am thinking in particular of someone who has mental health difficulties but there is a whole variety of issues. In fact, saying that you were at home with your child might be the most socially acceptable response, but there are other areas where people are stigmatised.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

People might not feel comfortable putting that down. Either because they have been unemployed or had mental health issues, they think that if they put it down, that is it - they can hear the door closing.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I am interested to hear to what extent the organisations are picking up on this as an issue.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

It comes up in our regional discussion fora but I am not fully sure of the extent of it. I know some people find the online process better because they feel it is more anonymous but others fear it. They do not know what happens if they answer the questions in a certain way. If they do not use the right words, does it mean they are gone? As with many of these newer things, there are pros and cons. We need to get a better handle on what is being asked and why. There is the issue of whether the questions asked are necessary to the job that needs to be filled or whether somebody is just curious and whether that will then be used against the applicant. We need to get a better handle on all of that.

Ms Susanne Rogers:

On many of the job websites, people have to register for the site and create a profile on the portal. All of those things require a still mind, literary skills and a machine of some sort. I do not think I could do that on a phone, although I am sure a young person could probably manage it.

All of those things are competency based. Things like application forms are just getting more and more complicated. For example, in the past, for retail work a person could have dropped their CV into a shop. That is not done anymore. It is all done online. I agree that it is quite nice to sit down at 3 a.m., maybe, and fill in an application form in one's own time and space but I have concerns about larger employers using bots to filter through applications. I know from going through competency-based application forms that people just do not read the questions right and I often have to score them zero on certain answers. That is with a human element but the examiner might decide that it might still be worth interviewing the person. Getting a job can be a full-time job in itself. I know people in the UK are expected to engage in the process of job seeking as a full-time job in return for their social welfare payment.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I thank Ms Rogers.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Today's meeting came on the back of a report we commissioned on employment blackspots across the State. For those who have read the report, you will see that many of the blackspots are in Limerick, with five of the top ten. In fairness, this is down from seven in the top ten in 2016 but a lot of progress still needs to be made. As was mentioned, some of the activation schemes we have going on across the State, and particularly in Limerick, are done through the community centres. It will be no surprise to anyone in Limerick or the mid-west region to hear that all those blackspots include the regeneration areas, such as Moyross, Southill, St. Mary's Park and Ballinacurra Weston. I thank the community centres in those areas that have done jobs' fairs recently. They did not get off to a great start but have become much more successful. St. Munchin's Community Centre is not in a regeneration area but it does really good job activation schemes. The community employment scheme is going well there.

I have spoken to the Minister about my concerns that much of this work is funded through the Limerick regeneration programme, which has basically finished. Funding is only committed until the end of this year and we are now almost into October. Many people are employed on job activation schemes in some of these most disadvantaged areas. There is no commitment to further funding from January of next year. An affiliate of Ms O'Brien's organisation had an office in Limerick which was very useful but through circumstances, that is gone.

From the report, it seems that Limerick seems to have the same ones in first or second place. They move around but they never really come down on the ratings. There is always huge unemployment in those areas. This is linked in to social deprivation and poverty and the Pobal statistics will confirm this. I do not know if any of the witnesses have been contacted by people in those organisations regarding their concerns about funding from January.

Ms Bríd O'Brien:

Funding for the community sector has been an issue for quite a while, unfortunately, across a range of areas.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Particularly in Limerick. There was a regeneration programme but it has now finished, while half of the work still needs to be done. I thank Ms Rogers and Ms O'Brien for coming in today. The discussion was very useful.

That concludes the committee's business in public session. I now propose that the committee goes into private session to consider other business. Is that agreed? Agreed. We intend to publish the employment report and send it to any organisation that might be interested.