Mr. Neil McDonnell:

Absolutely. What Deputy Murphy is referring to in one case is an absolute. It is a go or no go based on age. With sub-minimum rates, we are talking about a partial and we absolutely acknowledge the distinction. It is not dissimilar, however, to the point raised by Senator Gavan. The law inherently recognises a right to pay for experience through incremental pay. Incremental pay tends not to happen in small businesses. What happens is some workers are simply on higher rates of pay. They sit down with their boss, they say they are in the business a certain number of years and this is what they are worth. That is how it happens externally.

All we are doing is citing the ESRI figures that show that these rates in the real world apply to a minority of workers. All we are asking for is the right to retain those rates such that the legal minimum pay that can be given to workers should necessarily be lower for those who potentially or probably come in on a first employment, who are, as Deputy Stanton said, considerably less experienced, and who are taking the time of a more senior employee or a different employee who is less productive as a result. That is all we are asking for. We are not saying we should be discriminating against these people or that they should be treated less than, but we also recognise-----