Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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We will go back for a second round but I want to come in myself now, if I may. The Opera project in Limerick has been referenced by the Irish Green Building Council quite a few times. I am familiar with it as a representative for Limerick city. What is happening there is really good in terms of circularity, the use of demolition waste and making sure it is repurposed. It is quite exciting that Limerick is leading the way in that regard. The interesting thing about the project is that its genesis is a bit murkier. There was a late 1970s concrete structure and about ten years ago it was mooted that it would be demolished. There was some merit in doing that. There are all kinds of things one would look at in trying to assess whether it should be demolished or not. In any case, that was the thinking and that is what gave rise to the new Opera project, which in itself required some demolition but ultimately, a new lead-standard, very modern construction. If we were looking at that now, we probably would not justify moving out of what is actually a public building. The Revenue Commissioners are based in Sarsfield House in Limerick and the idea is that they would move across to this new Opera project. If we were looking at it now or if the OPW, which is the owner of the buildings, was looking at it now, it might not as easily justify the new build because the question of embodied carbon would come into the judgment. That said, it might weigh it all up, look at various things and decide that it is still justified. I would not come down on one side or the other in that regard but certainly the conversation around embodied carbon has advanced incredibly and has been referenced so many times in this hearing. It is really in the front of people's minds and that is a good thing.

One of the challenges with embodied carbon is that there are so many variables. It is such a complex thing to really properly assess and measure. It is coming in, as per the European directive, in 2028 but I wonder how that will nudge things in the right direction. It is very important to be able to measure it but there also has to be incentives to nudge developers and prospective developers away from demolition and towards renovation and retrofitting. It seems that it is not really an exact science and a lot of these decisions are made on a case-by-case basis. We have got to look at things very carefully and there are so many things to weigh up. If it is not an exact science as to whether one should demolish or retain and repurpose, then it is a subjective call which means we need very qualified people to properly assess the application that is being made. I wonder if we have the level of expertise in our planning authorities, including An Bórd Pleanála and the local authorities, to really properly assess this very complex issue on a case-by-case basis. Do we need to upskill local authority and An Bórd Pleanála staff? Do we need to bring in more resources? Are we well set up for the situation that will emerge in a few years' time, where embodied carbon is one of the main drivers of decisions around demolition?