Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 18 June 2024
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government
Current Progress and Future Projections of Uisce Éireann Objectives: Uisce Éireann
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Good afternoon. I welcome everyone to the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Today, the committee meets with Uisce Éireann, Irish Water. I welcome to the committee Mr. Niall Gleeson, chief executive officer, Ms Margaret Attridge, head of water operations, and Ms Angela Ryan, asset strategy senior manager. We have received their opening statement in advance and we thank them for that. I will read a brief note on privilege before we start.
I wish to remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit, namely Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. For those witnesses attending in the committee room, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions to today's meetings. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privileges they enjoy and it is my duty as chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I invite Mr. Gleeson to make his opening statement. As part of that opening statement, could he comment on the recent fish kill in the River Allow? It is a very important piece of aquatic marine ecology and it is in an special area of conservation, SAC. It is a very important spawning ground for salmon and freshwater pearl mussel. It is heartbreaking for us to see fish kills of any type for whatever reason. As we know, our biodiversity is struggling at the moment, so I am wondering if Mr. Gleeson could include something on that in his opening statement or comment on it during the course of the meeting.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invitation to attend today's meeting. As the Cathaoirleach said, I am CEO and I am joined today by Ms Margaret Attridge and Ms Angela Ryan who are colleagues in Uisce Éireann.
As the Cathaoirleach asked, I will comment on the Freemount water treatment plant where we had the incident. We are carrying out investigations and a clean-up operation following an incident at the Freemount water treatment plant in recent days. We fully recognise the seriousness of this incident and we immediately informed the relevant bodies and are co-operating fully with Inland Fisheries Ireland in relation to the investigation and the clean-up of this incident. We are also talking with the EPA and the National Parks and Wildlife Service and measures have been taken to ensure there can be no further discharge from this plant. We would like to assure the community that there has been no impact on the quality of drinking water as a result of this incident. Any spillage occurred downstream of the intake point for the plant and, therefore, would not impact the quality of water entering supply.
Our investigations are continuing on the plant itself but we are also expanding that to all of our plants that are near special areas of conservation to ensure the same sort of incident does not happen again. The circumstances of the incident are unusual and we are trying to ascertain the root cause. We will apply the lessons from that investigation across the rest of our sites.
In Uisce Éireann, we are responsible for the delivery of secure, safe and sustainable public water services enabling the Irish economy to grow and communities across Ireland to thrive. The Water Services Act and the subsequent amendment Act set out the arrangements for the delivery and oversight of water and wastewater services by Uisce Éireann. To deliver this, we work closely with our economic regulator, the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, our environmental regulator, the Environmental Protection Agency, as well as the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, local authorities and other State bodies, such as the Health Service Executive, An Bord Pleanála and IDA Ireland. I would also like to acknowledge the continued close engagement with Uisce Éireann by Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas. In particular, I acknowledge the work of this committee in recognising a number of strategic issues of importance to Uisce Éireann’s ability to deliver on our goals, most recently in its extensive work on the Planning and Development Bill.
In line with the Government’s water services policy, our strategic funding plan sets out our ambition for public water services in Ireland and our capital investment plan set out our capital investment priorities over five-year revenue cycles. From 2020 to 2024, we have invested over €5 billion upgrading and improving water and wastewater services infrastructure and assets across the country to improve the quality of life for the people of Ireland, protect our environment and grow the economy. We are making progress against our plans. In 2023, works were completed on 42 new and upgraded wastewater treatment plants, including the connection of a number of agglomerations which previously had no wastewater treatment facility. Works were also completed on nine new and upgraded water treatment plants and hundreds of kilometres of water and sewer networks were laid or rehabilitated - all bringing enhanced, safer and reliable water services to tens of thousands of people.
We do not work in isolation. Our approach to planning and providing water services for growth, set out in legislation, is based on national, regional and local data, policies and development plans and is informed by comprehensive consultation and engagement with stakeholders and communities. We are constantly having to navigate changing legislation and regulation at national and EU levels, shifting populations and climate and economic developments which bring with them a number of challenges and competing demands both for Uisce Éireann and for the Exchequer.
Multi-annual funding is crucial to providing certainty to the provision of water and wastewater infrastructure across Ireland. On average, our projects can take between take five to ten years from design to completion, greater certainty provides us with stability in the delivery of our strategies, plans and programmes. We will require multiple cycles of funding to bring our water infrastructure to where we need it to be and then continuous funding to ensure quality and capacity can keep pace with demand.
Project Ireland 2040, together with the national development plan and the national planning framework, highlighted that sustainable water resources are central to the implementation of national strategic objectives and to underpinning our environmental and economic well-being. This is reflected in the fact that Uisce Éireann is delivering one of the largest capital investment portfolios in the country with a planned capital spend this year of €1.3 billion. Identified under the national development plan, the delivery of Uisce Éireann’s water supply project, WSP, is critical to securing sustainable economic growth, attracting investment and supporting housing delivery across Ireland for the next 30 years and beyond.
The current water supply for the eastern and midlands region is far too dependent on the River Liffey. As it stands, the River Liffey is the main water supply source for 1.7 million people in the greater Dublin area which means we lack resilience because we are extremely sensitive to drought and contamination. It also means we lack the necessary supply to meet the needs of our growing population and economy in addition to meeting the impacts of climate change. The water supply project will ensure that Uisce Éireann can continue to provide Dublin, Meath, Kildare and Wicklow with a resilient, safe, and secure water supply for the foreseeable future. Further connections along the project’s spine will service communities in north Tipperary, Offaly, and Westmeath. It will also facilitate the redirection of water currently supplying Dublin to Louth, Meath, Kildare, Carlow, and Wicklow. All in all, this project will directly benefit 2.5 million people across the country and support sustainable growth across the region.
Uisce Éireann welcomes and needs the approval of strategic infrastructure projects like the WSP to proceed urgently, so that we can be in a position to provide the necessary water and wastewater capacity in the eastern and midlands region and across the country, to facilitate the construction of housing, energy or transport infrastructure and to connect new homes, businesses or services, including increased demand from health, education or social services.
Public water services underpin all the basic needs of an open, thriving and globally competitive Ireland and there is much for us to do to modernise our water infrastructure. Infrastructure is expensive and containing costs relies on certainty, consistency and efficiency. Bringing stability to the planning system by progressing and enacting legislative amendments, finalising the reform of An Bord Pleanála and enabling it to make timely, impactful decisions around strategic priority projects is essential to constant, cost-efficient infrastructure development. We welcome the steps being taken to address some of the issues that currently exist within our planning system.
We are entering a momentous period having assumed responsibility for all local water services in 2023 and we are working towards an end-of-year 2026 deadline for the transfer of water services staff from the local authorities to Uisce Éireann. We want and need as many local authority staff as possible to join us, integrating their knowledge, expertise and dedication to water services to support us in rising to the challenges we face today and into the future as one truly national organisation.
This process is not without its challenges, however, and we are undertaking a nationwide series of engagements to consult the people and address any concerns they may have. Our water services strategic plan will be an important strategic document that will focus on the provision of safe drinking water and will ensure that the environment is protected from the impacts of wastewater discharges over the next 25 years. The plan is founded on a comprehensive study undertaken by Uisce Éireann in partnership with external stakeholders called Water Vision 2050, to explore how big change drivers such as climate change, digitisation and environmental challenges might impact on the wider water sector over time. Using these findings, the water services strategic plan sets out our approach to meeting these challenges, while providing value for money.
To conclude, continuing to grow investment in water services infrastructure is needed to keep up with and adapt to change and to ensure Ireland meets its economic and social environmental obligations. Support from the Government and Members of the Oireachtas provide the partnership that will allow Uisce Éireann to deliver our strategically important projects and programmes. I thank the committee for the invitation today and we look forward to answering any questions members may have.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Gleeson. The members will have seven-minute slots and I will start with Deputy Flaherty.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I want to raise a few local issues but first, before we go into that, in relation to the transition from local authorities to Uisce Éireann, it was announced in February that there would be 700 new jobs across Ireland. Has Uisce Éireann started to recruit for those yet?
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In that regard, has there been a recruitment campaign since the press release in February?
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have a few local issues. While this issue is local to me, it is probably a broad issue for many of the members here, namely, the change in the criteria for taking in charge group water schemes. l will speak specifically about the Forgney group water scheme in Longford. When it began with the first expression of interest, it had 14 households. That has now grown to 17 but they were advised in March this year by the environmental section of Longford County Council that Uisce Éireann has changed its criteria and they now need a minimum of 25 households to proceed with the application. Any of these group water schemes is an obvious and apparent threat to water quality in Ireland. The water quality in all these houses is very poor. When you take on board the grant and local contribution for each of those 17 households, the cost of taking this in charge was €100,000. Given the value in terms of water quality and environmental protection, it seems like a no-brainer to me. Mr. Gleeson should come back to me on that.
Another issue I want to raise is the upgrade of Ballymahon sewage treatment plant. We had been anticipating that that was going to go to planning in early 2024. I met officials of Uisce Éireann and a number of local councillors in September 2023 and we were advised of that at that point. As for the Edgeworthstown sewage treatment plant upgrade, I acknowledge that Mr. Gleeson is looking at that and appreciate there are challenges there, in that there is no apparent water source close by. Nonetheless, I would appreciate an update on that.
Finally, on the replacement of the line from Toome Cross to Carrigboy, on the outskirts of Ballymahon, my understanding is that a contractor had been appointed and works were due to commence earlier this year. As of the weekend, when I passed by, I did not see any diggers or any holes in the road. As it is safe to assume that it has not started, can Mr. Gleeson give me an update on that and perhaps identify the issue that has prevented the work starting? There have been a large number of breaks in the line. Local councillor Pat O'Toole told me there were 17 breaks last year and thus far this year, there have been eight breaks. Obviously, as that line services Centre Parcs, which is one of Ireland's largest tourism attractions, it is critical that we get that line installed as quickly as possible.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Deputy Flaherty. As the timer clock is not working, I will ask people on their honour to keep to seven minutes. I am also running a stopwatch. For some of those issues, if written responses might more comprehensively avail-----
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
I think so as any one time, we have 200 projects ongoing, so I would not know the specifics of each one. I do know that we are extensively engaging with Centre Parcs on its water supply, so I am surprised that the Toome Cross project has not started, but we can come back to the Deputy on that. On group water schemes in general, I am not familiar with that stipulation between 17 and 25. But where group water schemes in general are concerned, we are quite happy and willing to take them over. We have a programme in place with the Department for the transfer and there is a process to go through of bringing them up to standard and then taking them into charge. We see it as part of our responsibility, especially as standards from Europe increase. As we know that smaller schemes are struggling to cope, we see it as part of our remit to take them over. I will investigate those but I think on all three, unless anyone else knows anything about them-----
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am happy for Mr. Gleeson to come back to me in writing about the others. Were he to bring a take-away from today's meeting on the group water schemes, it seems a no-brainer to take these schemes into charge. There is a local committee there that has been working assiduously on trying to get this scheme in charge since 2018 or 2019. They have done everything possible to get it to this point and particularly with the cost involved in taking this in charge, it seems unfair to them. While €100,000 is a huge sum of money to all of us, it is a small price to pay in terms of water quality and environmental protection. We have made it hard enough for people to live in rural Ireland and the most obvious thing everybody expects is good water quality. These people have done everything that they needed to do to get to this point. I would appreciate it were Mr. Gleeson to take that back and see what can be done, specifically in relation to Forgney. There are a number of other Longford schemes as well but certainly, if we are able to address the numbers around Forgney, I am sure all the others will fall into the required guidelines as well.
Ms Margaret Attridge:
To clarify, we have been very proactive working with the federation of group water supply schemes and taking charge of group water supply schemes. Thus far, we have taken in charge 252 group schemes across the country, so we are very proactive in this area. We will follow up on that particular one.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will go next to Deputy Ó Broin.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Gleeson and his team for the opening information. I have some high-level questions and again, if we do not get detailed responses in this round or subsequent rounds, it would be very helpful if Mr. Gleeson could furnish the committee with written updates. The first concerns the midlands east supply project. There has been a significant amount of coverage of it, the Housing Commission has referenced it, as did Mr. Gleeson in his opening statement. What most of us do not understand is what the delay is. It is a number of years since we expected the project to progress to planning permission. There were issues around water abstraction legislation and the fact that that has not been produced, so from Mr. Gleeson's understanding, exactly where is the project at and what are the obstacles to it progressing? That is the first part of the question.
The second is related to that. As far back as we raised this matter, the issue of the continuing high levels of leakage within the distribution systems of Dublin and the greater Dublin area continue to be a concern. If Uisce Éireann is going to spend €2 billion plus on the pipeline project, obviously we want to see those levels of leakage, in Dublin in particular, reduced. Can Mr. Gleeson give us an update on where that is at and where he expects the leakage reduction rate to fall to over the intervening years?
In terms of enforcement and particularly the issue of infringement of the urban wastewater treatment directive, obviously there has been progress. On Uisce Éireann's website there are those useful graphs showing the priority areas halving between 2017 to 2024, down to 73. That is positive but can Mr. Gleeson give us an update on progress with those? I am still concerned about the lack of compliance with its now ten agglomerations. Again, it has to be acknowledged that there has been significant progress in the reduction of that number from 40-odd some years ago. Can Mr. Gleeson give us a sense of whether those ten that are still non-compliant? Are they small or large, what populations are they covering and what is the progress on those?
On development-provided infrastructure, any countrywide information Mr. Gleeson can give us either in writing or here today would be welcome because that is a legacy issue that is of concern. As for the final two issues, we had a very interesting session with residential developers and utilities on alignment of capital programmes to ensure that Uisce Éireann's own capital programme, residential development in the public and private sectors and others are aligned.
The Housing Commission has made some specific recommendations, if I understand them right, with the view to try to better align those capital programmes. Has Uisce Éireann looked at that? Does the agency have a view on it at this stage? Is there any further update Uisce Éireann can give us on the move to the single utility with regard to the levels of transfer of staff from local authorities to Uisce Éireann and what the plans are to continue to have some level of footprint within the local authorities for utilising their depots, call centres and so on?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
I will go through these and I may call on my colleagues to give me a hand answering. On the water supply project, we have submitted the preliminary business case to the Department. We believe it has been well received and is moving through the public spending code phases at this stage. We are hoping to get some information on that in the next couple of weeks. Once that has been approved we will then go for planning, which we expect to be some time next year, probably around this time next year or maybe quarter 3. We will have a public consultation and all that kind of stuff in the meantime. In parallel with that we will be looking at the water abstraction legislation and dealing with the land owners along the route, whether through agreement or compulsory purchase order. They are the main challenges. I believe the biggest challenge is probably be the planning process for this project. It is a large process that goes through a number of counties. I expect that we will get significant judicial challenges even when we do get permission. We are hoping to get that done in three years. That may be optimistic but we are aiming to have the project delivering water by 2032. That could go to 2034 depending on these factors.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have two quick supplementary questions. For how long has the business case been with the Department? Is there any indication from the Department on where the abstraction legislation is at and what its intentions are?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
The business case has, in various iterations, been with the Department for a number of months. We have gone backwards and forwards and there have been questions and queries. The second question was about the water abstraction legislation and whether the regulations are being worked on. Perhaps Ms Ryan will come in here.
Ms Angela Ryan:
The abstraction legislation has been enacted and the secondary legislation for regulations is under development. We anticipate that those regulations will be completed within the next number of weeks. In the background Uisce Éireann has been doing preparatory work relating to all of our existing abstractions and has been teeing up the environmental assessments that will be required for new abstractions, such as the proposed abstraction from the Parteen Basin. We are working with our colleagues in the ESB in that regard.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is there a breakdown of that in terms of Dublin city, Dublin county and the wider greater Dublin area?
Ms Angela Ryan:
In general the greater Dublin area is one water resource zone so all of the supplies within that are interconnected. We look at that as a system. The rate of leakage within that system is approximately 32% right now. We have a leakage reduction plan in place. We are looking at a number of initiatives. The network length in the greater Dublin area is about 9,500 km of water mains. Our initiatives are actively monitoring water pressure management, district metered areas, DMA, optimisation and water mains rehabilitation. We hope to have leakage rates in the greater Dublin area down to 20% by 2030. Well in advance of the project coming on line we will have all of the supplies in the greater Dublin area down to that 20%. With any supplies that will be connected to the pipeline along its route we will look to reduce leakage to 20% within those supplies as well.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I appreciate it is one water system, but does Ms Ryan have leakage rates for Dublin, either for the city or the county? There is quite a significant variation between Dublin city and the county in terms of the rates historically.
Ms Angela Ryan:
Within the city centre it is higher. It is in that 30% region. Towards the periphery, where the networks are slightly newer, the rates are in the 20% region. Right now we are looking across our supplies in terms of meter upgrades and district metered areas optimisation to allow us to understand on a very specific level what are the individual leakage rates. The district metered areas are very small sections of the network. Within the greater Dublin area there are 750 district metered areas. We are developing out the calculations to allow us to assess every single one of those areas individually. We will have night lines for those areas where we can see the amount of flow going into those areas at night time when people are not using water, which is a very good indication of leakage. We will then develop out our programmes to target those areas that have high night lines. We are about 50% through with that DMA assessment but our leakage reduction plan will close that out over the next two years.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We will go to the next slot but will return to the Deputy's questions on urban wastewater treatment and the capital programme.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Gleeson and his colleagues for being here today. I will start with questions on the connection and pre-connection agreements. What is the average time taken by Uisce Éireann to issue a pre-connection agreement at the moment?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What is the quickest and slowest on either end if the average is 16 weeks?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that for pre-connection, not for connection agreements?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What would Ms Ryan consider to be a straightforward case?
Ms Angela Ryan:
Uisce Éireann produces capacity registers and every year for all of our supplies we have an online capacity register. That is a good indication of capacity within our supplies and wastewater agglomeration. A good area would be where there is plenty of capacity within the water or wastewater treatment plant and there are no issues on the network. The more complex-----
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
A pre-connection is 16 weeks and then connection agreements after planning permission is a further 16 weeks. It that what Ms Ryan is saying?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is the average. I will ask the same question regarding the high and low ends of connection agreements. What is a quick time and what is a slow time?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Uisce Éireann staff will be familiar with these and I will not go into the exact detail of where this particular case is located but I ask about it because I would consider this a straightforward case for Uisce Éireann to deal with. It is a former public house that had wastewater and water connections in place. It is being converted into ten residential units under the repair and lease scheme. It requires seven water and wastewater connections. It is a standard brownfield city centre site that has these in place. An application was made on 17 October and it was acknowledged on 1 November saying that it would be 16 weeks. It was followed up on 6 March. I got involved in it at the start of April and followed it up. I got a response on 2 May that it was undergoing a final review. A final connection offer was issued on 20 May. That is 31 weeks. Is that acceptable?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is why I asked the question. The average is 16 weeks. I have an example there of 31 weeks. I have other examples that are in excess of that with respect to connection offers for greenfield developments for developers. Is that acceptable?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
No, it does not.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
It could be a long way from the connection. Again, each one is evaluated on its own challenges, topography and geology. One of the issues with the transition and taking over services is the transfer of responsibilities for staff, and we have suffered in certain areas with resourcing and hiring people. We will bring that back up to an acceptable level.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Will Mr. Gleeson give the committee a commitment there are no other developments waiting in excess of 31 weeks for a connection?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What about 40 weeks or 50 weeks?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I think it is, because politicians will rightly get it in the neck for not delivering housing units and we all want to deliver more of those, but an integral part of that system is ensuring we have an adequate system in place to get the appropriate permissions in place to allow that development to occur.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is it 80% or 86%?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That would be useful for the committee in seeing the outliers on the long end and the short end. The officials will have to appreciate if a developer is waiting up to 30 weeks on a pre-connection and, subsequently, up to 30 on a connection, it is more than a year where nothing is happening on the site. That is not even allowing for the planning permission that could go to judicial review. That could be two years. A developer could be caught three years between Irish Water and planning with nothing happening on the site. That is not acceptable.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I did not for one second suggest it was the norm.
Ms Margaret Attridge:
Yes. To elaborate on what Mr. Gleeson said, last year we responded to more than 3,000 connection inquiries. A very small percentage of them, due to complexity, may take longer than normal. Those 3,000 inquires would have been associated with 98,000 housing units, so there is an awful lot being progressed in a timely manner.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Sure. I do not know how much time I have left.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Senator is out of time, but I can bring him back in on the third round if he wishes. Just to follow up on what he requested, if the officials can give us an outline of those ones that are quite long in the system, I ask that they give us the reasoning behind them as well. Is there is anything within the process or processing of these applications that can be learned from? If there is something that is running to 40 weeks, where is the fault?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
With 3,000 applications, it might be better for both sides if I came up with some examples and samples rather than each individual case, because they would probably identify people. It might break GDPR rules as well. We will come back with some examples of situations that have taken us longer than we would normally expect.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes. It is about anything within that process we as a committee could engage with either through legislation or secondary legislation that might speed it up.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Just to be clear, the officials are saying 86% are dealt with within 16 weeks.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
On the 86%, if the officials can reflect it in the subsequent written response, I assume it does not equate to the exact total of 86% of units. It could be 86% of applications, but an application could be for two units versus 200 units, so does it equate to 60% of the units on the desk or does it equate to 90% of the units?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the officials.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I would have thought those ten units were straightforward as well.
Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I welcome our guests. I am going to talk about the Shannon pipeline. We have discussed this in a private meeting before, but I would like to address the issue in public. I put on record my deep concern that colleagues from the mid-west are not in attendance to discuss what is a very important issue for our region. Whether you are in Clare, Limerick or Tipperary, you should be very concerned and tuned into this project that is being proposed to take a substantial amount of water from the Shannon to the east of the country. I wanted to note my concern. I see a number of Dublin representatives here and they want this pipe to be built as quickly as possible so we can build more houses in Dublin and it can grow and get bigger. That is something we need to be very careful about. We have a national planning framework which is about balanced development in the country. We are going to have a review of the national planning framework imminently. I would like to hear the officials' thoughts on how they are handling the review of the framework in their planning of the project.
From our previous private discussions, the officials might confirm on the record that the primary reason to build this pipe across the country is that the resilience of the network around Dublin, the Liffey basin and the east coast simply does not exist. It is effectively to avert a calamity. If something were to happen to the Liffey supply in particular, that would be catastrophic for a huge segment of our population. Is it the case that is the primary reason?
Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Before Mr. Gleeson does, what I am trying to get at here is I think that is a very strong reason to build it. No reasonable person would say do not build it if the supply to 1 million-plus people is going to affected. It is the population growth argument I have an issue with, because we are meant to be balancing population growth in the country. We are meant to be accelerating the growth of the regions at twice the rate of the capital and this project, if built, will enable the growth of Dublin and the east coast even though that is not necessarily in our interest. That is not to say it should not go ahead, but the true cost of this project is not the construction cost but the other infrastructure that would be required. If this were to go ahead, the Government would have to give a commitment to the regional cities to invest in infrastructure that would lead to the population growth of Waterford, Cork, Limerick and Galway at twice Dublin's rate. If it were not to, we would see an acceleration of the growth of the Dublin and east coast region.
Is there an analysis by Irish Water that addresses the risk to significant growth, especially in the mid-west, because of the water resource? The Shannon flows through Limerick and we have very significant ambitions for the mid-west. Perhaps not in five or ten years, but certainly in decades to come, we see ourselves becoming a counterweight to the east coast. Is there an analysis that shows we can send so much water to Dublin and the east coast and still become that counterweight?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
Taking the Deputy's first question, our plans include building the water supply project and continuing to invest countrywide. We would be working with our supply chain, the Department and the Departments of Finance and public expenditure on ring-fencing the money for WSC.
That is our approach. We do not see us sacrificing other areas to build that project.
We are working to get our supply chain into a position to be able to continue to deliver the level of investment we have in the country at the moment and build a water supply. How that money is divided up is very much up to the Exchequer and State. We will work with the committee to make sure we get that spread of funding. I will pass over to Ms Ryan to answer the second question and provide background on how we have planned for this and done research.
I will steal one quote from Ms Ryan. The project will deliver about 300 megalitres per day and about 200 megalitres of that will go into what we call the east coast GDA. The other 100 megalitres will go to the eastern midlands. There will also be water freed up, as I said in the opening statement. Water that is currently going into Dublin from the likes of Carlow, Drogheda and Louth can flow upwards. It may not benefit Limerick, but it will certainly benefit growth in other regions.
Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The concern is that it would suppress growth in Limerick and the mid-west in the years and decades to come.
Ms Angela Ryan:
I will address the first point the Deputy raised on the need for the project. As Mr. Gleeson said in his opening statement, there is a huge footprint of water abstraction on the River Liffey. It is a relatively small river, the 19th largest river in the country. We rely on the River Liffey for 85% of the total volume of water produced in the greater Dublin area, with a population of over 1.7 million people. It is a very large footprint on a very small water body.
Yesterday, the volume of water flowing along the River Liffey through Leixlip dam and towards the bottom of the Liffey catchment was about 4 cu. l of water per second. Uisce Éireann abstracted 6 cu. l. That is the extent of our abstraction. It is very large compared to the size of the water body. Even under current conditions, without considering climate change, that is unsustainable.
Based on ESB hydrometric information, yesterday four cubic metres per second of water were flowing through Leixlip. Between the upper catchment and our abstractions at Leixlip, Uisce Éireann abstracted about 6 cu. l of water per second. It is an enormous amount of water relative to the size of the river. That only operates properly because the ESB releases water that is stored in Poulaphouca dam. That is the only way that water supply is currently possible. Poulaphouca dam, which is in the Wicklow mountains, has just over 100 days of real storage on the reservoir in the summer period. We are operating at very fine margins, even at present, within the supply. If anything were to happen, even short droughts for two or three months or not having appropriate rainfall during the summer, that would cause a lot of difficulty in those areas.
The two water treatment plants along the River Liffey operate at about 100% output every day of the year. There is no headroom whatsoever in the system. That causes us operational problems on a day-to-day basis. Where we have to carry out capital upgrades to plants, we cannot take those plants out of service for more than a few hours at a time. Even on an operational basis, it is very difficult for us.
As Mr. Gleeson said, if there is a pollution event on the River Liffey we have to allow that to pass through the river before we are able to abstract water again. The system is very vulnerable. It would not be a normal situation for a capital city across Europe to have a supply that has that level of risk. That is one of the primary drivers of the project. Irrespective of the level of leakage in the system and from where a new supply comes, we have to address those resilience issues across the region.
In terms of balanced regional development, Uisce Éireann has developed a strategic 25-year plan for all water supplies, our national water resources plan. We are not just looking at water supplies in Dublin, Cork, Waterford and Galway. We have looked at all 540 water supplies nationally. Each one of those water supplies, even for small towns, has been assessed in terms of the need for quality upgrades, whether there is enough quantity available, the reliability and sustainability of those supplies and whether we are abstracting too much water or they are potentially vulnerable to climate change.
With regard to balanced regional development, within our 25-year plan, when we calculated the supply demand balance or how much water we would need in the future, for every single water supply we took a policy on growth-----
Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Some 25 years is a very short time. We should really be looking at a 100 years.
Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is 50% by 2040. I am conscious of time. The Chair has been very generous. What are the figures for 2016, 2080 or 2100? We have to think about the resources we need for that kind of growth.
Ms Angela Ryan:
Absolutely. To account for that in our calculations, we allow for headroom. Within larger urban areas where we perhaps have more certainty and we get larger projects over the line which are interconnected, we allow an 8% headroom for those areas. For regional cities, we allow between 10% and 20% headroom. We allow for more headroom for future growth in regional populations.
Rebecca Moynihan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is clear from the statement that we simply do not have the water infrastructure to meet housing demand and population growth. I am in agreement with Deputy Leddin. A period of 25 years is short-term thinking when it comes to something as important as water infrastructure considering that we are relying on water infrastructure that is in some cases 100 or 150 years old.
The warnings about Dublin are stark and we know from previous experience shortages can happen at any time. It is disappointing to hear about the delay in approving the business case for the midlands water supply project. A response to a parliamentary question in October last year stated that it would be considered by Government in late 2023 and early 2024. We are now halfway through 2024, and the witnesses have said it is still going through the process and will probably take another couple of months.
Can we get an indication of when Uisce Éireann expects to get approval? Has it received that information from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage? What are the delays in that Department? It is outrageous that a project we have discussed for at least ten years has not even received approval for a business case. I ask for details on the funding stage that will be required for that. I understand from the website that the next stage is going to planning and proper funding has to be in place. Are timelines attached to the funding required for the project?
While Uisce Éireann has waited for the business case to be approved, has it carried out any negotiation with landowners along the project route to determine their position and head off potential problems before it goes to planning? That has quite tight deadlines.
I refer to robustness and preparedness for extreme weather events. I am concerned about Dublin, but we know that extreme weather events are happening more frequently. Does Uisce Éireann have an extreme weather preparedness plan for water shortages in Dublin? If so, what does that involve?
I refer to delays in water connections having an effect on home completions. Senator Cummins spoke about cases in Waterford. The Irish Home Builders Association has warned that delays could affect the delivery of tens of thousands of homes in Dublin.
Back in March or April, Mr. Gleeson stated that the system capital was so overstretched that Uisce Éireann might have to refuse to connect new homes. I understand from what he just said now, however, that it will not be obliged to do that. Where is that system breakdown and blockage? Is it with local authorities, is it systems or is it people? It would be good for the committee to get an understanding of where exactly the blockage lies.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
On the business case, it is a very large project. It was a comprehensive programme. It was assessed by the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, which did a report on it. The major projects advisory group, MPAG, also had to assess it. As a result, it has gone through a number of iterations since last October. The business case has been accepted and is with the Department. As already stated, we expect a decision imminently.
Ms Ryan might wish to talk about the engagement on the farming side of things.
Ms Angela Ryan:
In the context of engagement with the farming community, there are approximately 500 landowners along the route of the pipeline. Uisce Eireann has a dedicated landholder liaison team that has been engaging with each of those landowners significantly in recent years. We have had approximately 26 engagements with every landowner along the route. As part of our preliminary designs, we had to carry out significant levels of site investigations along the route. We have been granted access to land to complete all those site investigations to date. That is quite positive. In terms of landowner liaison, we have had a number of requests for pipe route alteration. We had nearly 150 requests from landowners to alter the route. We have accommodated requests where we can. Approximately one third of the requests to which I refer have been accommodated. We have been able to partially accommodate one third by moving the pipeline slightly within the land to suit them better. We have not been able to facilitate one third, predominantly for technical reasons, or it is just moving the pipeline into another person's land. That engagement has been quite good so far.
In terms of-----
Rebecca Moynihan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The emergency preparedness for Dublin specifically.
Ms Margaret Attridge:
We have a drought preparedness team that would constantly look at demand trends versus weather events in order to prepare for what will happen in the summer months. We have already stood up this year. We have plans in place in respect of communications and water conservation messaging that we go live on each year in critical areas. We have capacity to mobilise additional crews and use our meeting green data to target extra efforts when it comes to leakage. We have extensive plans that are set out in stages whereby we can pressure manage the network to reduce pressures by night to conserve water to allow reservoirs to fill up during the day. We have, therefore, detailed action plans to manage a dry weather event in the Dublin area. The other extreme weather events, such as cold weather events, tend to be more short-lived and are easier to manage. Our national water resource plan and our resilience planning very much feed into building out the robustness, strength and resilience of our assets.
I will give the Senator a few examples nationwide of the difference in our future planning implementation and upgrading of our schemes. Normally at this time of year we would be moving towards imposing night-time restrictions in areas like Clonakilty in County Cork. We have now linked Clonakilty to Bandon, so we do not envisage there will be night-time restrictions in Clonakilty this year. Similarly, outside of Limerick, Croom would normally be moving into night-time restrictions at this time of year. It is linked into Limerick's Clareville supply. This is the kind of work we are carrying out right across the country to improve the resilience of our schemes so they are not impacted by these dry weather events.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
There was a question on completions. I know that some of the housing organisations do complain, but the figures of 98,000 units with pre-connection offers and 43,000 units with connection offers do not point to a fundamental problem with our processes. There are times when we have challenges in certain areas with resources or with a particularly difficult connection, but, generally, our system is working well.
Rebecca Moynihan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is certainly not what we hear across the board in this committee with regard to water connections. That is an interesting issue for us to explore further.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Senator had a question on the funding stages of the water supply. Is she happy with that? Did she get a response to that?
Rebecca Moynihan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Not really, but it is grand.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Was that responded to?
Rebecca Moynihan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It was just on the funding.
Rebecca Moynihan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What is the overall anticipated cost of the project to get it operational?
Ms Angela Ryan:
At present, that sum is included within the preliminary business case. Obviously, when Cabinet approval is given for that, the amount involved will be out in the public domain. After the next stage of that project will be the final business case. It is important to note that this is not the overall project approval amount. It is the approval of the amount of money to get us through the statutory consenting process, the landowner engagement piece and some of the procurement relating to the project. There is another approval gate, which is known as the final business case, which will be conducted after the current phase.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that project from source to finish? Is it a phased project or one complete full project?
Ms Angela Ryan:
It is one complete project. Obviously, with a pipeline type of project, we do not want to be going into those 500 landowners again. It is a single pipeline through the land that will be built at the ultimate size it needs to be in order to allow for flexibility. We have allowed for a booster pumping station along the line. In the first phase of the project where we need less water, that pipeline size works effectively. For the second phase, we put in that booster pumping station. This allows us to achieve the maximum output of the project. The project for which we are going in for planning permission for and the environmental consents will be for the maximum amount of water. As a result, we will not be coming back for a further abstraction in the second phase. The full environmental assessment will be done as part of the first phase.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Ms Ryan. Deputy Creed is up next.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank our guests. Their contributions are fascinating, and the case is well made for the Shannon extraction. Given the figures they quoted in respect of the volume requirement for the greater Dublin area, we are obviously on a knife edge. My concern is that whereas that is absolutely necessary and understandable, if people are living in provincial Ireland, their concerns are going to be about how to get this project done without adversely impacting on the budget for other works of significant capital nature given the volume of capital that will be required.
The witnesses might also give us some information on the remaining steps because I am still somewhat confused. Obviously, there is a business case and all of that, but planning, contractual work, tendering, etc., and all those steps that have yet to be completed. If Uisce Éireann was to get a green light at all those stages - and that is a big if - what timeline do the officials envisage before they will be signing contracts and work will commence? Obviously, the perilous state of the water supply to the greater Dublin area is high risk.
Coming back to the provincial Ireland requirements, I am sure that like most members here, I could instance numerous cases that worry us and our constituents in respect of water supply and service. I can recall one instance very close to where I live in Cork where there have been eight water supply outages since last November. If that happens at a weekend, on some occasions people cannot get anybody out to repair it until the Monday morning. In one case, a nursing home involved was left with no water supply. That allied with the capital commitment required does raise issues around what is going to be left for the rest of us in terms of funding. I have some sympathy for the funding model Irish Water is operating under because decisions were made with regard to its autonomous revenue sources, which we now live with, but it has a constraining capacity to deliver the kind of service to which we all aspire.
I am interested in reassurance on provincial Ireland's share of the cake. Even that is not entirely adequate, given that the level of service is, in many respects, not what I would call adequate.
I am also interested in leakage and the replacement of water mains. Multiple leaks on the same water main suggest that there is something wrong with the main itself. At what point does Uisce Éireann say that there are so many leaks on a water main, it must be replaced? Does Uisce Éireann have a picture in that regard? I presume we are mostly replacing older water mains, particularly those incorporating asbestos pipes. Where are we with the target to replace all asbestos water mains? I do not wish to be alarmist but they tend to break more than the newer pipes. There are also other issues that alarm people with regard to asbestos water mains, although I am not qualified to comment on them. What is the timeline for that? Does it stand in jeopardy if a major capital project of the nature of the one we were just talking about is about to be signed off on?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
On the general funding, as I said before, our plans include the water supply project for Dublin but also the upgrading of networks, wastewater treatment and drinking water plants all around the country. Our plans are not to do one or other but to do both. That is challenge for the Exchequer, which is not one I can solve here. What I can say is that we are putting together comprehensive plans and the details and justification for it being a greater Dublin area or eastern seaboard project or a project on the west coast of Ireland are all there. One interesting thing is the cost of delivering small projects. The cost of delivering the greater Dublin drainage project, which will serve approximately 450,000 people is approximately €2,000 to €3,000 per head of population. A similar plant on the west coast of Ireland would cost somewhere between €10,000 and €15,000 per head of population. While the spend in rural areas might be less, the cost per head of population to service rural areas is considerably more. That is not necessarily a challenge but it is something we have to take into account as we deliver a project. I will ask Ms Ryan to come in on the other question on the details.
Ms Angela Ryan:
With regard to one other aspect, we have a ring-fenced small towns and villages fund of €96 million for very small communities. That is for very small areas. To double back to water main rehabilitation, leakage is obviously a network efficiency issue. It is a loss of water across the networks. The leakage interventions that give the best return are active leakage control and pressure management. Pressure management reduces pressures in the network, stopping new leaks and reducing losses from existing leaks. Active leakage control involves constantly monitoring our networks for new and emerging leaks. If a leak is allowed to run for 365 days, a great deal of water is lost. Active leakage control is about finding leaks very quickly and fixing them very quickly. That is where you get the majority of savings on leakage.
On asbestos mains, as the Deputy was saying, when they go, they tend to get longitudinal fractures and so they go quite dramatically and are repaired very quickly. The volume of water lost to leakage when large mains such as asbestos mains burst is not actually that high because we shut them off, effect a repair and get them back in service. Those leaks do not run on.
We consider the primary role of water main rehabilitation as dealing with high frequency bursts. Where levels of service are falling across communities and where there are multiple bursts ten or 15 times per year, those mains are prioritised and put on a programme for replacement for high burst frequency mains. They are put on a programme. Sometimes it can take a period of time to get through that programme but there is a priority list of sites. We record every time there is a burst and identify particular burst hot spots across the country.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for coming in. I have brought in a bottle of water today. This is what is going through the pipes on the north side of Cork city. I represent 130,000 people and, for the past two years, this is what Uisce Éireann has been delivering to our doors. It is an absolute disgrace. People are being told to run the water and that, when it runs clear, it is drinkable. This bottle has been sitting in my office for the past two months. What happens is that the water goes clear because the rust and dirt have sunk to the bottom.
I was given this water by a husband and wife with two young children, one of whom is a raw baby. They have to buy bottled water. They cannot make bottles for their child because they cannot depend on the water. That couple live in Gurranabraher, which is where I live in Cork city. A 69-year-old lady who lives in Blarney Street contacted me yesterday. Her daughter has to go to the local supermarket to buy 5 l of bottled water a day so that she can make tea and wash herself. It is right across the area. I have had a number of meetings with Uisce Éireann in Cork. I have raised the matter in the Dáil a number of times. It is a disgrace that, in the second city in this State, half of the city cannot get clean drinking water. Areas on the south side are affected as well but not to the same level. This water might look clear on the cameras but I challenge anyone to take a glass of it. It is not just Blarney Street and Gurranabraher; it is also Knocknaheeny, Churchfield, Farranree, Blackpool, Mayfield, the Glen and Ballyvolane. A man contacted me this morning to say that he had no water supply in Glanmire last week and that, when the water was reconnected, there must have been a blockage or an air block because he now has no water in his bathroom for flushing the toilet or for washing.
This dirty water going through the pipes has consequences. It is destroying kettles, showers, washing machines and dishwashers. People have spent hundreds, if not thousands, of euros to replace appliances in recent years. I ask the witnesses, as I have asked representatives of Uisce Éireann in Cork, whether there will be a compensation package for the people affected. I also ask that bottled water be delivered to the affected communities. We could use the community associations, GAA clubs, soccer clubs and local community organisations to distribute that water.
Many older people live in Barrett's Buildings, which are located between Gurranabraher and Blarney Street. It is the same in Madden's Buildings in Blackpool. These are vulnerable older people who cannot access clean water and have to walk up and down the hill to get it. There are also a number of blind people. What is a blind person to do? How does he or she know the water is dirty? How does he or she know it has run clear? Family members are now coming in to fill bottles with clean water and put them in the fridge or they are going out to buy it. People are spending between €20 and €40 a week, depending on the size of their families. That is not acceptable at all.
Irish Water has told us that 54% of Cork city water mains are cast iron. Uisce Éireann spent €44 million to put in a new water treatment plant in Cork and the water is now worse than it was than before it was put in two years ago. The issue is that Uisce Éireann employed private contractors to run this facility and they did not have the local knowledge the local authority workers had.
For this reason, too many chemicals were put into the water. In my opinion, and that of the water workers with whom I am working, this caused the strippingof the lining of the cast iron pipes, thereby revealing dirt that then went into the three main reservoirs in the city, namely, Sunday's Well, Harbour View Road and Kilmore Road. They were filled with dirty water full of rust particles.
I will give one example. Irish Water said it would cost €500 million to replace the cast-iron pipes on the northside of Cork city. Has Uisce Éireann applied to central government for this money? If it has not done so, why not? If the application has been submitted, when will this work be started and completed? This situation is a scandal and a major issue around Cork city and I am looking for answers.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
We have been aware of the challenge in Cork city for the last 18 months or so. It is a considerable problem. I will ask Ms Attridge to come in with some of the details regarding what we are doing about it. It is, though, getting full attention from the organisation. We have been trying to fix the problem for a long time. The water is not constantly dirty. The problem comes and goes. We have a huge flushing exercise going on now. We did bring in a new water treatment plant. It is not privatised. We used contractors to build the plant and they are going to run it for a couple of years until we take it over. This plant will always be in Uisce Éireann's ownership. It is running as was designed. This has, potentially, caused an issue in respect of interaction with the pipes, but this has nothing to do with private contractors. We are working with the local authority-----
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Just one second. Uisce Éireann brought in private contractors when Cork City Council had excellent water workers who could have done the job. These contractors were brought in. Are they going to be held liable? Are they, in fact, going to be sued for the damage they have done in Cork city and the costs that will be accrued by Uisce Éireann and the taxpayers of this country? Equally, what about all the damage done to people's washing machines, dryers, showers and kettles? Where is the compensation for these people? Who is responsible? Who is going to answer my constituents' questions?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
We met Deputy Gould and his fellow Oireachtas Members in Cork city recently. We have set up a task force in Cork city to look at how we can resolve the water quality issues for the people there as quickly as possible. As the Deputy is aware, we have an extensive flushing programme going on now in the areas he mentioned, Gurranabraher and Blarney Street, as well as on the north-east side of the city and in the Douglas area. These are the worst affected areas of the city. We have been asking customers to call us and log their complaints because this drives our flushing programme. Since March, flushing has had to be carried out by night. Our crews have been out over 78 nights since March flushing the networks to improve the water quality in those areas worst affected. We do track the complaints coming in and we are seeing a drop in the number of water quality issues being reported to us.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Just on that point, people have given up and stopped ringing in because it takes too long for them to phone in and get a response and a reference number. People have got two, three, four, five and six reference numbers and they have given up ringing Uisce Éireann because they do not believe they are being taken seriously. I highlight this point in the context of it being said that the number of people putting in complaints has reduced. What would we do if we were phoning someone for two years to say our water was dirty? A definition of madness is doing the same thing and expecting things to change.
People in some parts of my constituency have been phoning Irish Water for more than two years and their water is still dirty. Another point to note is that the tanks in people's attics, for hot and cold water in their bathrooms, toilets and boiler systems, are all full. This is the case in my house. I invite Ms Attridge to come down to the city or to go on social media and see the situation. There is a well-known drink in Cork called Tanora. For anyone who does not understand what this is, it is like red lemonade. It is nearly the colour of blood and this is the colour of the water. I brought a sample in with me of the water Uisce Éireann is telling people to drink. It is not fit for human consumption in my view. At least if water is black, people know not to drink it. I do not believe, therefore, that the reduction in the number of complaints being received is due to the service getting better. I believe, instead, that people have given up.
Ms Margaret Attridge:
It is extremely important to us that we continue to communicate that we need people to report problems to us. With respect to our own communications, we are proactively calling customers back. We call back at least 30 customers every week. We are also doing an enhanced media campaign now, asking people to call in to us. We are also doing something the Deputy suggested when we met him previously by issuing leaflets and doing door drops in the worst-affected areas of the city to provide people with updates and information concerning who they can contact if they do have issues. We are, therefore, being very proactive on the communications front to improve our communications to customers so they can understand they are being listened to and we can keep them informed of the work we are undertaking in the area to try to improve the water quality.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have just one question. All I am looking for is to know when the people on the northside of Cork city will have a supply of water that is clear and safe to drink. If the witnesses tell me this will happen in three months or six months, we can tell people. All I am looking for is a timeline.
Ms Margaret Attridge:
We have identified seven key areas for extensive flushing in Cork city and, hopefully, these will be completed by the middle of November this year. It is early days, but we are seeing a positive trend in the areas we have gone into. If this trend continues, the flushing programme should make a huge difference in the worst-impacted areas in Cork city. We also have our best scientists out in the new treatment plant looking at it and the water chemistry to see if it is impacting the old network in the city. We are making minor adjustments and this does require some minor investment. We are currently going through the procurement process and installation of those minor adjustments to condition the water should, hopefully, be completed by the end of the year. This is our timeline to resolve, hopefully, the worst of the water quality issues in Cork city, albeit it is still a very old network and when we do have breakages or any problems like this in it, we will have periodic discolouration issues. There was always a baseline of ten to 20 calls per week being received by Cork City Council previously. We need to get back to those numbers, and we are getting there.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Ms Attridge. Uisce Éireann would encourage people to continuously ring in so the company is aware of any issues arising and problems developing.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am going back to Deputy O'Callaghan because I know he has duties in the Dáil Chamber. He has seven minutes.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses from Uisce Éireann for coming in. I have two sets of questions. A few weeks ago, other Oireachtas Members and I met a group of water workers. One of the issues they raised concerned the level of resources going to private contractors. They told us that a huge amount of Uisce Éireann's resources and budget is now being allocated to private contractors. These water workers were raising the issue of the loss of the local knowledge and experience they had built up over many years and the different types of costs that stem from this loss.
Another aspect they raised was a specific example of what has changed. They told us that Uisce Éireann was now paying private contractors to replace a valve at a cost of €83,000. For direct labour, from directly-employed water workers, they told us that the equivalent highest cost, were this work to happen on a Sunday, for example, when there would be extra pay, would be €18,000. Will the witnesses respond to these figures? Are they correct or does Uisce Éireann have any analysis done of the different costs involved in paying for direct labour compared to private contractors?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
First, we want as many local authority workers as possible to come over and work directly for Uisce Éireann. This has been clear from day one. We are a direct-hire business. We do use contractors for specific tasks. Where there is additional work, certainly on the construction site, we do use contractors. Where there is additional work on the operational side, we also bring in contractors. This idea that we are hiring a lot of private contractors to do work, therefore, is simply incorrect unless we have gaps we cannot fill because our recruitment process is taking a bit longer than we would like. Eventually, however, our aim is to have the vast majority of staff on direct contracts. Ms Attridge might wish to comment on some of the specific issues in this regard.
Ms Margaret Attridge:
Our operating model is primarily an insource model. Our leakage crews in Dublin, for example, would primarily be insourced. We will, however, always continue to use contractors so we can flex up or down to respond to events as they arise or if we need to target particular areas over and above the capacity our teams would have. This is the space we are probably in now with the leakage in the Dublin area in particular.
Our crews are maxed out and we have contractors in to support them. We know that while we are going with an insource model, it is cheaper to deliver all network improvements with an insource model rather than a contractor model. It is primarily an in-source model we will be using.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Uisce Éireann may not be in a position to confirm those exact figures but it is not disputing them.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
They sound plausible in that they could be on that sort of scale of a difference.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
If Uisce Éireann could do so, that would be useful. The workers were very certain and specific about that and said €18,000 was the highest amount for work that would be done on the direct labour model.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Gleeson for that.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I appreciate that.
Second, on the lead pipe replacement programme, can Uisce Éireann give an update on where that is? In my area, there is huge frustration among people who see pipes being replaced in a community beside them, yet there is nothing is happening in their estate, with no timeline or information. People are very concerned about the health impacts of lead pipes. Why is it that a particular community or estate might be done but the one next to it is not done or on a timeline? What is the overall timeline in that regard? How do we get better information for communities that are very concerned about this issue?
Ms Angela Ryan:
We can look into better information for communities but we have replaced more than 9,000 lead service connections this year. They are on rolling programmes depending on their location. If Deputy O'Callaghan has a specific area he would like us to look into, he should please let us know and we can provide feedback regarding its position on the list.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Ms Ryan stated that 9,000 connections have been replaced this year. At that rate, how many years will it take to replace the lead pipes?
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Uisce Éireann have a rough idea on that, without giving an exact answer? Does it have a general idea in this space?
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Approximately 9,000 of these services are being done each year; is that it?
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is the number that have been completed so far this year. We should be looking at about 18,000 for this year.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
We can come back to the Deputy on that. One thing the Oireachtas could help with is that we bring the lead pipe up to the house but there is a Government scheme for replacing the lead pipe within the house, on which we believe there is very low uptake. We would be happy to work on the promotion of us replacing the lead pipe to the house but the homeowner would then have to take responsibility for doing the rest of the work. We want to get rid of all of the lead. There is no point in doing it halfway. There might be some kind of scheme we could come up with whereby one contractor does it all but that may be a multi-jurisdictional area.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I move now to Deputy O'Sullivan, please.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses from Uisce Éireann for attending the meeting. I do not sit on this committee but I have come in here because of some very important issues in my constituency.
First and foremost, I am unsure if the witnesses are familiar with the village of Shannonvale. It is a beautiful picturesque village on the outskirts of my home town of Clonakilty. The beautiful River Argideen weaves its way through the village. Unfortunately, for the past 15 years, the community and the people who live in Shannonvale, the families and children, have had to put up with excrement and sewage seeping up through the surface of the playpark in the centre of the village. This is the community and children's play area. It is where I and my peers used to play when we were kids. It is right on the river. Children can no longer play there, however. As I said, there is excrement and sewage coming up through it. It is desludged every now and then but that does not fix it, so it is cordoned off with barriers. We can only imagine what is it like for the community and the people who live in Shannonvale that the centre of the village, the area where children play and the location for community events, barbecues and whatever else, is out of bounds and has been such for 15 years.
Uisce Éireann's response is a bit cold, to be honest. It stated the problem could be fixed at a cost of €900,000. The septic tank causing the issue serves nine houses. On the face of it, €900,000 for nine houses, amounting to €100,000 per house, does not add up as a business case for Uisce Éireann. It is so much more than just balancing a financial equation, however. This is a community's playground and it has been taken from them for 15 years. To say that it does not make business sense or that it does not add up is just not good enough for them.
I am pleading with Uisce Éireann, including Mr. Gleeson as CEO, to please prioritise Shannonvale and put it on a capital programme. This is not just a business case; it is a community playground. The community wants it back. Everybody in the community in Shannonvale, Clonakilty and the wider area wants to have this play and community area back. We can do that if we can just fix the issue.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that really the case? Does Mr. Gleeson face issues where there is excrement coming up through a children's playground all of the time?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I do not mean to sound smart because I know Mr. Gleeson is very familiar with the different issues facing Uisce Éireann but is it dealing with another situation where a children's playground has sewage seeping up through the surface? Honestly, is there another such situation in the country?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
I know Deputy O'Sullivan has had updates from our teams on progressing the business case but we have a governance process to go through and we are going through it at the moment. We have done initial scoping and are now preparing the preliminary business case, which is looking at the different options to resolve the problem. We are considering whether we can upgrade the existing facility and put in some sort of reed-bed treatment such that we can discharge to the local stream, which does not have much capacity, or whether we have to pipe into the Clonakilty system or build a new facility on adjacent land which is privately owned. It is not a quick solution. Our preliminary business case is looking at the different options and costing those out. Once we have that done, it becomes a question of whether we can get it on a programme. We are at a stage where we are looking at the options. We will then be able to consider it and get it on a programme. We are progressing it through the preliminary business case at the moment.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
My concern is that I became a councillor in 2007 and I have been hearing the phrase "preliminary business case" for 13 or 14 years but it does not seem to have progressed. I am asking Mr. Gleeson to please look at it again and to prioritise it.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
I will look at it again and ask the team to come up with solutions that will cost us the least amount but will be practical in order that we can try to get it done. It is a challenge. We may not have issues to the same extent across the country but we certainly have challenges in many communities across the country.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Gleeson and Ms Attridge for the update. It is very important that this is progressed.
There are a couple of other issues I wish to raise. In Castletownbere, there is an issue with drinking water supply. It is right on the west of my constituency, on the Beara Peninsula. The council is not granting planning permission at the moment, not even for one-off houses, because of an issue with water supply there. There is an environmental issue as this is one of the last strongholds in the area for the freshwater pearl mussel, so a certain flow of water is needed. The concern is that if water is taken from the river, the freshwater pearl mussel will be impacted. People need a supply of drinking water, however, and people need to be able to live and build houses in rural and peripheral areas like Castletownbere and the Beara Peninsula. Is there a solution to that problem in the short term?
Ms Angela Ryan:
Castletownbere, on the Beara Peninsula, is home to some of the last remaining populations of freshwater pearl mussels. These are special areas of conservation, SACs, so it is very difficult for us in these areas. It is a similar problem to that we experienced at Freemount. We are trying to not impact that species on the site. As to our legal obligations, we cannot grant new connections where we need an increase in abstraction.
We are not able to do that if there is a qualifying interest. The issue is there at present. We are trying in areas like the Beara Peninsula and the islands off the coast of Ireland to reduce leakage to an absolute minimum. We focus our linkage reduction programmes on those areas. We are also trying to promote water efficiency in those areas. We will work with Cork County Council in relation to future planning and future growth in those areas. We would like to look at examples where we can perhaps require water efficient measures to go into the conditions in planning permission to drive down demand management in those areas. However, it is very difficult for us. There are a large number of environmental designations in that area.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I appreciate the need for environmental designations. They are important, as is saving a species on the brink. Having said that, we need to come up with solutions in order to allow places like the Beara Peninsula to develop, grow and flourish. To go back and say there will be no more planning permissions is not good enough.
That brings me to another point. I appreciate that this is like a clinic. The other issue I am aware of relates to Dunmanway. It is a similar issue relating to the freshwater pearl mussel. Dunmanway is a big town with a population of well over 2,000. It has what I would describe as a brand-new wastewater treatment plant which is only ten years old. It cost multiple millions and was built for a capacity of 3,500 people, I believe, so there should have been a buffer of 1,500 people. There is an issue that Cork County Council is no longer granting planning permissions, be it for one house or ten, no matter what it is. A town like Dunmanway will never grow or develop unless that issue is resolved. Is there a solution for Dunmanway to bring in increased capacity so development can be allowed again in the town?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is the witness taking note of all the questions in respect of which Uisce Éireann will respond? A timely response would be welcomed by everybody who asked those questions.
The next slot is mine. I thank Uisce Éireann's representatives for their attendance. The establishment of Irish Water was an important step in managing our water supplies and systems. It was a big challenge to try to bring the 31 local authorities which were managing separate water systems under one umbrella but it has helped with strategic, long-term thinking and bringing a standardised approach across all management of the water system. That is notwithstanding the expertise in our local authorities. I worked with local authority caretakers in drinking water plants and wastewater treatment plants. They knew their plants inside out. I know Uisce Éireann recognises the real knowledge on the ground in our local authorities, such as where the networks and pipes are, where the issues are, and the little quirks and anomalies in the systems which local operators know, having worked in the systems for 30 years.
I wish to look at some more strategic stuff. It was stated that the target for the leakage reduction plan is to get to about 20% by 2030. Is that an industry standard? Is it a high-ambition target? What are we talking about in cities like Dublin or Cork, which still have aspects of the Victorian pipe network?
Ms Angela Ryan:
On leakage targets and levels, as part of the recast drinking water directive transposed into Irish legislation, there is a requirement for Ireland to report back to the European Commission on leakage levels. All member states will have to report back by 1 January 2026. We will develop our calculations and submit them at that time. When those calculations go in, the purpose is to ensure that we can harmonise leakage reduction across Europe. When Ireland declares its targets, the European Commission will set targets for the ambitions of all member states. It will set a target and Ireland will have a further two years to submit its proposals to reach those targets. At present, we have set our target using a sustainable economic level of leakage of 20%. We see that as an ambition up to 2030. It is not a hard figure that will potentially be there in the long term. It will be influenced by the European Commission and standards from other European member states. There is a large degree of variability across Europe. Some countries have very good leakage levels in the order of 10% to 15%. The average is around 20%. We are looking to achieve that average figure at present.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In addressing leakage, it is also part of the solution to the knife edge we are on regarding supply, so that water is not leaking out of the system. What is the average daily use of water? I think it is something like 130 l per person.
Ms Angela Ryan:
It is approximately 130 l. It varies across the country. In the greater Dublin area, we estimate it to be about 122 l per person. That is relatively low compared with European norms. It is most certainly not an outlier. The average across Europe is between 130 l per person and 140 l per person. We are relatively low in that regard.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Concerning building regulations, new builds, renovations, refurbishments, water-saving measures, etc., is Uisce Éireann satisfied with the measures required under the building regulations? Is there anything else that can be done at housing level regarding water storage and retention?
Ms Angela Ryan:
There are various aspects to demand management. The UK is updating its building regulations to include more water efficient supplies. That probably needs to come into revised building regulations over time in Ireland. Uisce Éireann promotes water conservation. We are looking at running a number of pilot projects to reduce pressures in individual properties and water-saving measures. We have a water stewardship forum in which we work with business users, send teams in to audit their water use and assist them in using less water. The information on our water stewardship is available on our website, www.water.ie.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is not currently a requirement in planning conditions for water demand management systems to be put in.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It would be beneficial if that were to become a requirement of planning. Is there any engagement between Uisce Éireann and the Department? We are doing planning regulations at the moment and we just reviewed some of the building regulations. I would be interested in working on it. Does Uisce Éireann engage with the Department on that?
Ms Angela Ryan:
Uisce Éireann engages with the Department on a number of topics. We would like to have a look at a number of pilot schemes to see the effectiveness of some of these measures and we will then feed back that information to the Department in terms of what can be achieved or what we see can be achieved through water efficiency measures.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Would Uisce Éireann be able to share some of those findings at an appropriate time with us?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Speaking of planning, Mr. Gleeson mentioned the planning Bill. We had engagement with Uisce Éireann during the pre-legislative scrutiny process. Will the witnesses outline some of their concerns on the planning system in the context of water projects?
Ms Angela Ryan:
Some key issues in planning policy or policy relating to growth are dependent on infrastructure, particularly key critical infrastructure. We would like to see an acknowledgement of that. There need to be methodologies for key State strategic infrastructure projects to almost have their own channel through planning so that we are not held up and have more certainty of timelines around planning. On exemptions for works we need to achieve in order to ensure climate change resilience such as nature-based solutions, we would like a broader consideration of that in planning regulations. As I said, we would like more certainty around timeframes involved.
That can be a significant delay factor in our major projects. When we get to ground with major projects we are very good as a company in delivering major projects but getting to that stage of achieving the multiple consents across different agencies can be very problematic for us.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
When local authorities were doing this they were able to use the part 8 process whereas Uisce Éireann must go into the full planning system.
Ms Angela Ryan:
Absolutely. It is the multiple consenting processes as well. We might have planning permission, compulsory purchase orders and discharge of authorisations, and they all follow different process. Each of them is open to judicial review as well, so when you add up all of those individual timelines, it can significantly disrupt the delivery of key strategic projects. An example of that has to be greater Dublin drainage.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am out of time there but we will come back in for a third round to bring others in. The final slot in our normal committee session is Senator John Cummins. I will then go to Deputies Christopher O'Sullivan and Ó Broin, and then back to myself.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In my first round I addressed the connection issues. One of the key difficulties Uisce Éireann faces as an organisation is water and wastewater legacy issues in Celtic tiger developments that have not been taken in charge. What is the position of Uisce Éireann? Is it a case that Uisce Éireann is saying they are nothing to do with it, these are developments that occurred 15 years ago, and in many cases no developer exists anymore? Is it the case that Uisce Éireann as an organisation will not get involved until such a time as the development is up to standard and ready for taking in charge? What is the position of the organisation?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
These are what we call developer provided infrastructure, DPIs. There are probably between 600 and 1,000 of these around the country in various states. Some are very well run by management companies and some not so well run. We understand that we are the State organisation for water services so they come in our direction. We just want it to be in an organised fashion. Perhaps Ms Attridge will elaborate on the details.
Ms Margaret Attridge:
With regard to the number, we know from the returns to the Department that 13 local authorities listed a total of 518 DPIs. This is why we reckon the number in total is closer to 1,000. A good number of those 518 and the ones that have not been listed yet had water services operated by the local authority previously. If the local authority operated them when services transferred to Uisce Éireann, then we continue to operate them as the local authority did previously.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What happens where they did not? That is the issue.
Ms Margaret Attridge:
Where they did not operate the services, we are currently in discussions. There is a working group working with the Department to carry out a programme of assessment of those DPIs to understand what the issues are. The programme of assessment will take a number of years to understand what level of investment is required to bring those up to scratch.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Uisce Éireann have a programme in place where minimal funding is required to solve an issue so that it can be done?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Some may require minimal work and some may require significant works. Uisce Éireann is aware of some of them that require minimal works. What is being done with regard to those?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There is a case, which I have raised with Uisce Éireann, at Cruachán in Dungarvan. It was an old McInerney Homes estate. McInerney Homes went into receivership. There has been subsequent development on the site and 60 of the units were originally taken in charge. Essentially, two developers are at play there at the moment, there is the local authority and there is Uisce Éireann. In fairness, one of the developers has done the legwork on this and has costed the works required. It is less than €80,000. There was a meeting with the four parties about two or three months ago where it was suggested that each of the four parties would contribute one quarter of the costs in lieu of the fact that 60 units have already been taken in charge, new development has occurred and there is more to come on stream. To me this seems like an inherently sensible approach to solve a legacy issue - one of the 500 on the Uisce Éireann list - for less than a €20,000 cost to Uisce Éireann out of a €1.6 billion budget.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I know. I am not saying that. I have raised this. I have been chasing this for two or three months. A meeting was held in the civic offices in Dungarvan with the four parties. Uisce Éireann had a senior person there, obviously under Ms Attridge's level, and subsequently they came back and said that because the estate had not been taken in charge, Uisce Éireann was not willing to contribute one quarter of the cost. Of course the estate is not taken in charge but there is a pumping station that is an issue because it is potentially discharging into the estuary in Dungarvan. For minimal cost, where there are two developers already at play on the site and the local authority, everyone is willing to play ball except Uisce Éireann. I put it to the witnesses here because it is a sensible approach where four players are at the table.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
About 60 of these units are already taken in charge.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
We will have to take it away and I will come back to the Senator on it. That is the only answer we can give today because I do not know the details of this one either. I do not know and I cannot just turn around and commit. I will commit to looking into it and taking it up to my level and seeing if we can do something to move it on.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I would appreciate if Uisce Éireann would come back to me. I am waiting on a response on this for the past number of weeks. I have raised it with Uisce Éireann but have not been getting the response. This is the only reason I have raised it here in public session.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
No. I have not got an answer. I would not raise it here in public session if I had an answer but I did not get one. How much of the small towns and villages growth programme fund of €96 million has been spent or drawn down?
Ms Angela Ryan:
Approximately 34 projects are in progress right now at various stages. The small towns and villages fund has been ring-fenced but projects take between five and seven years to deliver. Just because there is a ring-fenced programme, we still have to get detailed designs and statutory consents, etc., so the bulk of costs in projects is during the construction stage.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I would have thought so.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is on the Uisce Éireann website: stage 1, strategic assessment; stage 2, preliminary business case; stage 3, final business case; and stage 4, construction. Typically, what is the strategic assessment timeline on that?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In the case of Lemybrien, it took more than two and a half years. Is that appropriate?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I raised Lemybrien and the small towns and villages growth programme the last time Mr. Gleeson was in. It took more than two and a half years to get through stage 1. The Government has given Uisce Éireann €96 million that is not actually required until the tail end of the process. That is my frustration as a public representative and it is also the frustration of those on the ground who I represent and who require that for development to occur. They see the Government giving money to Uisce Éireann and then what they see as nothing. I am not saying it is nothing. It is a significant part of the process. I am just saying it is taking too long.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Senator has made his points. We are out of time on that slot. We are into the third round. I propose to take a five-minute break because we are supposed to take a five-minute break after two hours. However, I will let Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan make his contribution first because he has been waiting patiently. We will then take a short five-minute break if that is okay with everybody.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the Chair for allowing me in. I might take up where Senator Cummins left off and address the frustration certain sections of Cork county are feeling. There are various programmes and funding streams available for small towns and villages. Central government granted funding for a couple of wastewater treatment plant last year and, to the best of my knowledge, they have not progressed. Will the witnesses clarify whether any of those plants have proceeded to construction stage? By the sound of it, I do not think they have.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I do not expect an answer on the two specific examples I am going to raise today. I will raise them with the witnesses and follow up with an email. I will specifically ask about Carrignavar and Glenville, north of Cork city. In both cases, issues have been ongoing for the last eight, nine or ten years. In Carrignavar, there is evidence that there has been leaks from the existing wastewater facility in the past. A shortlist of 37 wastewater treatment plants to be prioritised has been drawn up in conjunction with the local authority. Carrignavar features at number 11 or 12 on that list. Under the last round, funding was devoted to the first six projects. I hope that Carrignavar might feature in the 2025 capital scheme.
To give context, there is a village there but it has not been possible to build additional housing for the last ten years or so. It is ten minutes to the city and due to get an improved bus corridor under BusConnects. The location is ten minutes from the city centre but houses cannot be built. Even the new school the Tánaiste will be cutting the ribbon on this week had to give a commitment during the planning stage that it would not take additional students over the existing capacity. I am just highlighting the restrictions on the village and how this is inhibiting growth and restricting the capacity of the town to grow. People from Carrignavar listening in will find it very hard to hear about a lead-in time of five to seven years in addition to the ten years that have already passed. You are talking about the bones of 15 to 20 years before seeing an upgraded treatment plant. I just do not know if that is good enough. If the witnesses do not have details on Carrignavar and Glenville, I would appreciate a follow-up afterwards.
I would say Deputy Gould will speak to the issue of water quality in Cork city. Uisce Éireann is obviously aware of the ongoing problem in that regard. The quality of water coming through people's taps varies, to put it mildly. People cannot drink it at the best of times. They cannot wash in it. They cannot really use it at all. To be fair to Irish Water locally, we met its officials two or three months ago and they talked us through the plan. It is sectioning areas off and going through it pipe by pipe. They think that, given a bit of time, they will be able to get to the bottom of an awful lot of the difficulties. We appreciate that work but we raised the point in the private meeting that people still cannot drink that water. In most cases, they are paying for bottled water. The rationale given was that there is no notice on the water. Uisce Éireann is not saying it is not drinkable much of the time. However, if water is coming out from your taps brown, red or a rusty colour, nobody is going to drink it. Obviously, the advice is not to drink it but is there any way people can be accommodated and water made available to them if they so choose? Those are my initial queries.
Ms Margaret Attridge:
Since we met Deputy O'Sullivan in Cork a couple of months ago, there has been very good progress on the flushing programme in Cork. We are starting to see some positive results. It is early days yet but we have identified the seven high-risk areas in Cork city based on the information coming through to us. We hope that flushing programme will be for the most part complete by the middle of November. There has been good progress in the three areas we have gone into so far.
On the bottled water issue, as we have shared with the Deputy before, it is only in the case of a "do not consume" notice being issued that we are funded to provide bottled water for customers under the Commission for the Regulation of Utilities. In Cork city, the water is for the most part okay to drink. That is the advice of the HSE. The advice is that, if the water is discoloured, you should run your taps until it is clear and that it is then okay to drink. In the case of Cork city, because there is no notice in place, we are not funded to supply bottled water.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I get that logic. I might not like it but I understand it. However, at the same time, as all Deputies in the constituency would attest, there is a confidence issue for the vast majority of people. Even if the water is running clear, there is still a reluctance to use it because this issue has gone on for so long. While Uisce Éireann may not be obliged to do it by the regulator, it is something that should be considered because, as I have said, a certain proportion of people have lost confidence in the quality of the water.
My last question is about the magnitude of the problem in Cork. I am a firm believer in being straight with people and telling them if there is a difficulty. At this point, it is probably very difficult for Uisce Éireann to estimate how much time it will take to remedy this issue in its entirety but are there best-case and worst-case scenarios? Is there any indication of how many kilometres of pipes will have to be replaced to give people some understanding of the magnitude of the replacement of pipes that might be required? From the interactions I have had with the witnesses, I would guess it is quite extensive. People are better off knowing the magnitude and scale of the problem and that it might take a considerable period of time rather than being left in limbo. Will the witnesses comment on how extensive and costly any replacement might be?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
On the question of keeping people informed, we have been constantly working on improving our communication with customers this year. I refer to everything from media work to leaflet drops, customer callbacks and so on. We really want to keep customers informed of what is going on in Cork city.
With regard to the timeframe, we hope that our actions this year will make a significant difference to the people of Cork by the end of the year. We are undertaking an extensive flushing programme and making some minor investments in the treatment process in Cork city, which we hope will treat the water chemistry. That will have a positive impact. We hope to have that infrastructure in place by the end of the year.
I will now address the more long-term replacement of cast-iron water mains in Cork.
The information we are gathering now is allowing us to identify the worst areas in Cork and prioritise those for mains rehabilitation. As we go into the particular district metered areas such as Douglas and Gurranabraher, we are finding out more and more about the condition of the assets in those areas and then reprioritising sections of mains where we are discovering issues. We are finding lengths of mains that were supposed to be decommissioned many years ago but that are actually still live dead ends in absolutely terrible condition. Therefore, we have a lot of work. As we are going into areas, we are discovering these. We need to come back and shut those down and get them out of commission because they are adding to the problem due to their age and what has happened over many years in Cork city. There are more than 300 km of cast-iron mains in Cork city. It will take many years of investment cycles to replace those mains. We have replaced 20 km in recent years. This year alone, we have probably replaced up to 5 km of mains in Cork city. That is with the increased focus it is getting. It will take many years of investment cycles to replace all the cast-iron mains in Cork city.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Ms Attridge. I am going to suspend for five minutes. We will come back with Deputy Ó Broin, me, Senator Cummins, Deputy Gould and anybody who else who may drop in for the last 45 minutes.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I welcome everybody back. We continue our discussions with representatives from Uisce Éireann. We are into the third round of questioning now. Deputy Ó Broin is first on the list. He has seven minutes.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for the information provided so far. I will go back to a couple of the questions we did not have time to deal with in the first round, one of which was on developer-provided infrastructure, DPI. To pick up where the Senator left off, funding of €68.5 million had been provided from 2021 to 2025 to start getting at least some of those housing schemes upgraded and taken in charge. Has all that money been spent? Has it all been committed? How many estates and homes have been covered? I take from the response to Senator Cummins that there is not necessarily additional funding and that there is now a new assessment of the overall state of play. Mr. Gleeson might fill us in. There was an expert group before and there was a fund. Certain funding announcements were made. What has happened since then?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
On that point, I wish to be clear in case I am mistaken. Funding of €68.5 million for digital public infrastructure, DPI, was announced in 2021 and was to run until 2025. What happened to that funding?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
Some 30 schemes were put forward and prioritised by local authorities. The funding was given directly to the local authorities, which are progressing the taking in charge process and the new connection process before the schemes come over to Uisce Éireann. They are with the local authorities.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That funding was for the local authorities to take the lead and to upgrade those plants.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Do the witnesses have any visibility of whether all of that money has been spent or how many of those schemes have now been connected to the Uisce Éireann network?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is the approach now no longer to address this to the local authorities but to have Uisce Éireann do the full overall assessment, see what the overall cost is and have a roll-out programme?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
Yes. A new circular came from the Department this year stating that responsibility for upgrading DPI sits with Uisce Éireann. We are working through that. A working group is being set up between representatives of Uisce Éireann, the Department and other relevant bodies to work through the logistics and examine what will be required.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In those 500 or 600 estates, approximately how many homes are we talking about?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
When is Uisce Éireann expecting the assessment to be complete?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
The assessment will take approximately three years. I am not saying there will be no taking in charge of any of those DPIs within that three-year period but it will take approximately three years to fully understand the quantum of investment that is needed to take those in charge.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Am I correct in saying that Uisce Éireann can only spend money on taking in charge and upgrading those DPIs if funding is specifically agreed with the Government? If I, Senator Cummins or anyone else wants to make the case for funding, the first thing that has to happen is that a Government decision has to be taken in respect of an allocation of funding from which Uisce Éireann can prioritise.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Right now, there is no funding to deal with any of these bar what might be left with the local authorities.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will ask about wastewater treatment plants and the 73 priority locations that the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, raised in its most recent report at the end of last year. There are also ten agglomerations that are in breach of the urban wastewater treatment directive. Will the witnesses give us an update on progress in that regard? I emphasise that there has been progress. We have seen the number of priority areas and the number of agglomerations discharging directly into the watercourse decrease year on year. How long will it take to complete that piece of work? It is primarily the Department that engages with the Commission about enforcement proceedings but Uisce Éireann must have some visibility of where that is at. If the witnesses would give the committee whatever information they have, I would appreciate it.
Ms Angela Ryan:
On wastewater treatment in general and looking at it holistically within the river basin management plan, we are a pressure in 197 water bodies. That is in the third cycle river basin management plan. When Uisce Éireann took over water services, we were a pressure in more than 280 water bodies. We have significantly reduced that now.
Nearly 60 projects are under way at present and we hope to deliver those projects primarily by 2027. A number of them may be completed by 2030. That will make significant inroads on those issues that are sitting on the priority action list, PAL, of the EPA.
In respect of the remaining wastewater treatment plants, 73 assessments are ongoing and a further 58 assessments are yet to commence. In general, our advancement through that wastewater list has been very good to date. We are continuing on that trajectory. There were originally 50 untreated agglomerations and we have invested €750 million to manage that issue. We will predominantly be through that work by 2030.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
To go from 50 to ten is significant progress. A question we always ask relates to the remaining ten. In terms of the households impacted, what percentage is left to be resolved? The agglomerations can be different sizes and the wastewater treatment plants can impact larger and smaller populations. What percentage of impacted households or geographical areas remains to be dealt with? Are those ten larger and more complex agglomerations?
Ms Angela Ryan:
They tend to be more complex but are not necessarily the largest. Some of the larger ones, such as in Arklow, have been completed or are almost at completion. I can get the Deputy the figures on the number of houses involved. It is a tiny percentage of the load that Uisce Éireann treats on an annual basis.
The biggest lift in our compliance with the urban wastewater treatment directive will be the closing out of the upgrades to the water treatment plant in Ringsend. That will bring us as a State from approximately 40% compliance with the urban wastewater treatment directive to more than 90% compliance. That project will deliver a step change in that space. With the untreated, it tends to be the very small and more complex cases that are left.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
From their conversations with the Department, is it the witnesses' understanding that the Commission is satisfied with the rate of progress? The purpose of enforcement activity is to get improvement rather than to impose fines. Are the witnesses comfortable that we are on the right side of that trajectory with the Commission?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have two more quick questions and the witnesses can come back to me at a later stage. Is there any update on the transition to the single utility? How many staff have transitioned across from the local authorities to Uisce Éireann? Are there any other outstanding issues in that regard?
An issue I raised previously is whether the plan is to have some continued footprint of other service workers in the local authorities, albeit Uisce Eireann staff are operating depots that were previously council depots or are utilising offices in councils. Perhaps the witnesses could give us the shape of that.
The witnesses may or may not have a comment to make on the Housing Commission's report and the talk of trying to align the capital programmes of the providers of critical infrastructure, including Uisce Éireann, the development plans and public and private residential development. Is that something Uisce Eireann has started to look at? Have the witnesses any views on that?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
I will answer on the transformation programme. In recent months, we have had an extensive programme of roadshows and round table sessions with the various teams across all the local authorities. We are nearly finished. I think the last roadshows will take place this week. There has been good engagement. In Uisce Éireann, the asset operations team comprises approximately 3,000 people. Some 500 of those are Uisce Éireann staff and 2,500 are local authority staff. Of those 2,500, 1,500 have turned up and engaged with us at the round table sessions and 1,300 of them had one-to-one conversations with us to understand what it means for them to transfer to Uisce Éireann. That will allow them to make the decision. Of those 1,300 who had one-to-one meetings, 1,000 have expressed an interest in transferring to Uisce Éireann. We are going through the process of engaging with the HR sections of the local authorities to get information about those employees' terms and conditions so we can put them on paper for those employees.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What is the final deadline for expressions of interest?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It could be that I misheard. Did Ms Attridge say that approximately 2,500 full-time equivalent staff are currently covered by the service level agreement, SLA, and so far approximately 1,000 have expressed an interest? Is that a fair summary?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes, they are covered by the SLA.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I apologise, they would have previously been covered by the SLA.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
One thousand of that 2,500 have expressed an interest.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What would have been Uisce Éireann's expectation or did Uisce Éireann have an expectation? Ms Attridge may remember that when this was originally discussed, one of the reasons Irish Water, as it was then, wanted to bring the SLA to a close earlier was that it felt there were approximately 1,000 more full-time equivalent staff than needed. The framework agreement has dispensed with that. Anyone who wants to transfer can do so. However, is 1,000 of the 2,500 the expected number? If Uisce Éireann does not get more, will it have to recruit staff on the open market? What is Ms Attridge's read of that?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
It is just from the initial round of engagement that 1,000 staff have come through. We will continue to engage and encourage as many people as possible and I hope, as people start to transfer, that might encourage others to engage with us and transfer. That is our hope. Due to the age-profile of many people who work in water services, we expect quite a number to retire and they are probably the people who have not expressed an interest to come over. There is also a voluntary severance package open to water services staff over the coming months. We will lose people from water services. That is why we have an extensive recruitment campaign on at the moment, prioritising filling those front-line roles so we can maintain water services.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There is a recruitment campaign-----
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Deputy is coming up to 12 minutes now. If I can let him back in at the end, I will. The next slot is mine.
I will raise two County Wicklow issues before I return to the strategic issues. There is a legacy developer-provided wastewater treatment plant in an area called Garden Village in Newtownmountkennedy. It has been a long time in the process of being decommissioned and I think ultimately the service is to go to the mains network. I understand that Wicklow County Council is engaging with Uisce Éireann on it and is waiting for a final response from Uisce Éireann. Will the witnesses take that away and address it as soon as possible, unless they have an update at the moment?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The second local issue is that around the Vartry reservoir in Roundwood the level of lighting seems to be excessive at night, although it has been reduced. Why does there need to be that much light around the reservoir at night? There may be health and safety issues for staff who work there, but it seems to be excessive. There is an energy aspect and a light-pollution aspect and if it is not necessary, I ask that some intervention be made.
I will turn to water quality, especially as it relates to human health. What are the predominant organic loadings and their source in respect of the trihalomethanes that develop in drinking water supplies from chlorine treatment?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Would forestry have an impact on it as well?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The nature restoration law was thankfully passed in Europe yesterday, where we look at rewetting and stabilising bogs. Would that help to reduce the organic run-off and therefore reduce the trihalomethanes?
Ms Angela Ryan:
Yes. Where we have drowned bogs, when there is heavy rainfall large plumes of organic load end up in the rivers or water bodies, from which we in turn abstract water. We are therefore looking at a number of initiatives right now. There are some bog restoration initiatives, especially in Athy which is upstream of the Srowland water treatment works. We are a stakeholder involved in that and we are seeing good indicators in the raw water quality as a result of those works. Uisce Éireann is really interested in this area. We would like to progress more catchment-type measures to prevent pollutants getting into our water supply in the first place. It reduces the amount of chemical treatment required so there is a cost and health benefit to everyone in that.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Nitrates in water can have implications, especially for young children. They starve the oxygen out of the water. Are the nitrates in water an issue in Uisce Éireann's drinking-water treatment plants?
Ms Angela Ryan:
They are in some locations. Audit and compliance samples are taken across our water supply on an annual basis. We might have intermittent issues in specific areas, but in general our compliance and audit samples are approximately 99.7 % compliant with the drinking water regulations.
On nitrates, we are looking to work with farming communities on practices in the catchments. Uisce Éireann has been involved in a number of INTERREG Europe funded projects to carry out catchment measures, especially in Border communities and they have been really successful so far. Within those communities, when we have worked with farmers as part of those initiatives we are usually over-subscribed. There is a potential good news story in this. At a local level, we do not see that conflict between agriculture and water services. It is just a case of finding mechanisms and building on them and we can work quite well together. Some of the initiatives we progressed as part of those pilot studies were looking at setback distances, some fencing, small measures like cattle troughs on the land and keeping cattle away from direct access to water bodies, which in turn is good for farmers. It can result in less injury of their livestock and so forth. There are some really good things coming out of European member states on that.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is positive. Often when we hear about nitrates or organic loadings, we only think of it in that overall holistic environment, but it is also a human health issue. I am cognisant of that.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The issue of lead pipe replacement was raised. Uisce Éireann does it up to the door and then there are the internal pipes. Is the internal bore of a lead pipe suitable for inserting a replacement pipe into? Uisce Éireann has done that in some of its----
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is too narrow. It needs to be-----
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
For the consumer, that involves lifting floorboards or concrete floors to replace the last piece.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Regarding combined sewer overflows, there was a project a few years ago to separate the foul and surface water systems. In a lot of areas they were combined and having an impact on wastewater treatment plants. Is that scheme ongoing?
Ms Angela Ryan:
That is a type of network intervention we can use. When we assess our networks, loads and capacity for new connections, separating systems is one of the options we have.
With respect to where things are going, with the recast urban wastewater treatment directive that is being developed in Europe, the new approach to this is to stop rainwater getting into all the systems in the first place. As part of the new directive, we expect to see the requirement for integrated wastewater and drainage plans for larger agglomerations. Those integrated wastewater and drainage plans will look to progress nature-based solutions, such as holding water, soaking it into the ground and not letting it get into the surface water or sewer networks in the first place. There is an important nuance there as well. Rainwater that falls on the ground, particularly in urban areas, even when it gets into the surface water network and discharges to a river, is dirty water, so it has an impact on the receiving water body.
There is a gain to be had from preventing it getting into surface water systems and foul systems – combined systems – in the first place.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
My last question is on the water supply project. That is the overarching, critical project which is, as we have heard from the evidence, necessary, and not just for resilience in supply. I heard, in part from the opening statement, that we are very much dependent on this single source water supply. The diversity that project will bring into the system will provide reliability so that, for example, when you need take a plant out or do maintenance, you are not cutting off that single source supply to a network. There has been much discussion on it. I remember being in Buswells Hotel about ten years ago for one of the first launches of it. It is necessary and I would like to see it progress.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That separation piece is a big body of work.
Ms Angela Ryan:
It is a huge body of work. It will be in conjunction with other stakeholders. We will be interfacing with the local authorities on the public realm. Transport Infrastructure Ireland, the National Roads Authority and so on all have a part to play within this. Earlier in the year, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage developed its first policy guidance on it and there was a launch on it earlier in the year. Uisce Éireann was actively involved in the development of that policy.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will return to some of the questions on the transfer of staff and how that is coming along. What is the headcount in Uisce Éireann as an organisation?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We said 2,500 previously as part of the SLA. How many of the roughly 1,500 have come across from the local authority?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
About 150 came through in that process-----
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
-----but overall 500 out of 1,500, give or take. I am not holding the witnesses to numbers.
Regarding the roadshows Uisce Éireann held and the 1,000 who have expressed interest in coming across, there is another 1,500 who have not. What is the feedback as to why they do not want to come across? Reference was made to the age profile and people who may be retiring shortly. However, there must be something else there.
Ms Margaret Attridge:
The other functions in the local authority are under-resourced in many areas. It is difficult to recruit people in the current market and some water services staff have chosen to stay in the local authority and they are transferring to other functions in the local authority. It was part of the framework that each individual would have the choice to stay with the local authority and transfer to another function.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
One of the difficulties with having full employment is there are opportunities and it is a difficult recruitment market. It is a challenge for every organisation. While 1,000 people have expressed an interest, Uisce Éireann will never get all 1,000, considering the conversion rate. I would imagine Uisce Éireann would prefer to be starting from a higher base to get to 1,000 in terms of a conversion rate. Is there anything other than those opportunities within the local authority sector or the age profile of some of the staff involved that is jumping out that perhaps Uisce Éireann can look at and address to make it more attractive for people to come across?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
I think the fear local authority staff have is one of having to move from their current location. A Deputy asked earlier whether we would be utilising existing local authority depots. For the most part, we will. We have developed a property strategy and we are now able to give people reassurance that, for the most part, they will not be moved from their current location or, if they are, it will be within 10 km to 15 km.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is the case that if somebody is at a certain grade within the local authority, they transfer over at that grade. However, if somebody is coming across, they are potentially looking at promotion. It is predominantly younger people so far who have moved across. Is there something relating to it not being as attractive when one moves up the chain? Is there something in that space? It is just that some of the things I am hearing-----
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
A matter I raised previously - Mr. Gleeson might remember it – was about brownfield sites, bringing vacant premises back into use and so on. I kind of touched on it earlier with the connection piece. I refer to the connection charges. It was mentioned previously that Uisce Éireann is bound by the Commission for Energy Regulation in respect of the charges that were levied, but there was to be an engagement with it around that. I am not putting words in anyone's mouth, but essentially it was said that it is not a big money thing for Uisce Éireann or a dealbreaker. However, it can be a dealbreaker for getting an old building back into use, like the former pub, for example, that is now being levied for eight connection charges. It could be the difference between that project happening and not, but it is not a dealbreaker for Uisce Éireann as an organisation. Did that engagement happen? They are essentially being treated the exact same as a greenfield site on the outskirts of the city when, in fact, much of that infrastructure is already in the ground. It is just because it is now a change of use, essentially, that it is being levied for connections. If a former nursing home or pub is being converted to apartments, it is being levied for all of these things but the usage or the actual throughput through the drains or water may actually be less now.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
There will be a review with the CRU of the connection charging policy. No decisions have been made yet. We are noting the challenges we are having along the way and, following discussions with the CRU, we may change some policies. However, right now, we are pretty much bound by those policies with the CRU. It will be part of an overall review.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I raised this with the Minister, Deputy O’Brien, last week as well. We all want to see those properties in villages, towns and cities being renovated and brought back into use, but the charges can be an impediment to that happening. Nobody wants that. Universally, there is nobody in any organisation who wants to see a vacant property on a main street. However, it can be an impediment. Uisce Éireann could feed into that. I know it would be depriving itself of some money, but it would be for the greater good and it is small money.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
We have changed. We used to have a kind of “computer says no” or “policy says no” approach.
We are very engaged now with developers. The earlier they come into us, the better the understanding is. We have options, including some contractors who can do their own self-laying of pipes, which saves them money. We will do things like storm water diversions, so it frees up capacity in the wastewater system. We are, therefore, very much engaged with developers. We will take the Senator's comments on board and see if we can do more. It is tricky to do, though, in some of those spaces where the rules are very clear and it is very hard for us to go around them. We do, however, raise these issues with the CRU and we want to build houses as much as anybody else. This is what we are trying to support.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Sure. I thank Mr. Gleeson.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I call Deputy Gould.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have several questions. Going back to the commissioning and operating of the new water treatment plant on the Lee Road, will Uisce Éireann be taking legal action against the private contractors for the issues there now?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The witnesses should be cautious about discussing something that may be the focus of a legal action. I will leave it to Mr. Gleeson to deal with that.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay, but we did not have an issue before the new plant came on stream. We do have an issue now. Where did this issue come from and who is responsible for it?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
The plant is built to our specification. The contractor we hired to do the work has delivered what we asked him to deliver. As Ms Attridge said, we may be having an interaction happening. It is a new process, so there may be different chemicals involved. Again, the contractor delivered what we asked him to deliver. The design of the plant is as per the specification.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay. Returning to the subject of the new plant, Ms Attridge commented earlier on some minor adjustment works perhaps being done to the plant. Is the plant producing water now? Why would there be a need to make more adjustments to the plant if the water is perfect?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
The water is perfect. What is leaving the treatment plant is fully compliant. It is just a slightly different water chemistry makeup. It does not mean it is not compliant, just that it is slightly different and may be impacting the old pipes in the city. It is the treatment plant, and a lot of work was also done to the networks in the city, which caused a great deal of disturbance and has shifted sediment along. The upgrades to the treatment plant and the flushing of the network will improve the situation for the people of Cork city. The investment required for the works that will be done by the end of the year is for very minor adjustments, but we are hoping these will make a slight difference to the water chemistry.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay. To just go back to the point, we had clean water but we do not have it now. Why did this happen and who is responsible?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am not talking about the plant. We have a problem now.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
I am explaining the situation and giving the Deputy the answer. The plant was designed a certain way, but we believe the slight change in chemistry from this new process compared with the old process may be interacting with the old pipes in Cork. We are, therefore, going to make some changes to that plant. It is an unforeseen reaction with the old system. We could not have predicted it, but we are finding out about it now and we will correct it. The responsibility lies with Uisce Éireann to fix the problem. There is no shirking of responsibility.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay. Of the estimated cost of €500 million to replace the cast-iron pipes, how much funding has been applied for?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
How much did those 25 km cost?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
My issue is the timeline. Will this replacement be done in 12 months, five years or ten years? I ask this because this did not look like it was even going to be done within ten years based on my last meeting with Uisce Éireann. I find it astounding.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes, but I am only speaking about Cork now. The rest of the country has clean water but Cork does not.
Ms Margaret Attridge:
I suppose it is important to put this issue into context. I know there are particular problem areas in Cork city, but more than 300,000 people live in the metropolitan area of the city and we had 18 complaints this week. It is really localised pockets in Cork city that are experiencing these problems and we are focusing in on replacing the mains water pipes in those areas because they are the worst impacted. We have a limited pot of money, so we are not going to replace all the mains pipes right across Cork city right now and put these pipes into a replacement programme if there are no problems in those areas. Our initial focus, then, is on just trying to deal with the problem areas in Cork city now.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In relation to the supply of clean drinkable bottled water, and I asked this already at our previous meetings in Cork, I am formally asking Uisce Éireann to supply clean bottled drinking water to the impacted communities. We can work with community centres, the GAA and other sporting organisations, the meals-on-wheels service, etc., to distribute it. If we look at the sample of water I brought with me, it will be seen there is rust and dirt in it. I believe Uisce Éireann has a duty to supply clean drinking water. If we are looking at this problem being resolved by November, or some areas being done earlier, I think bottled water should be supplied until this happens. Is that not a reasonable request?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
Again, this is occurring in particular households. It is not an ongoing water quality issue. It comes and goes periodically. Normally, the flushing process clears it. Since a drinking water notice is not in place, and, for the most part, the water is safe to drink, we are not regulated to provide-----
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Just to come back to that aspect of "for the most part", the Court of Justice of the European Union has ruled that the concentration of THMs in water was above the threshold in January this year. Ireland was fined because of this finding. Is the water supply in Cork city being tested for THMs and manganese and, if so, what levels have these readings been at in the last six months?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Court of Justice of the European Union has ruled against us because of the concentration levels in the water.
Ms Angela Ryan:
It has, and Uisce Éireann has a funding stream for the treatment plants outside the level for THMs. The water is safe to drink. It is a non-compliance with a standard that is within the drinking water regulations. We have progressed projects to address all the sites that have THM exceedances. As the Cathaoirleach was saying, there are other aspects to this in terms of source protections, so-----
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am just conscious of time and I have two other questions I want to ask. The Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry has said several reports indicated that oral exposure to manganese, especially from contaminated water sources, can produce significant health defects, especially for children. We have had people contacting us who believe their kids were sick in the last 12 months but they did not realise that manganese was present in the water and could have caused it. There is no way of checking it now because it is after the fact, but people have said to me that this is one of the reasons they cannot trust the water. They do not believe the manganese levels and they would not give the water to their children.
Ms Angela Ryan:
It is checked, so we have audit and compliance samples. The level of sampling has gone up since the formation of Uisce Éireann and minimum sampling requirements are set out in the drinking water directive. Annually, we set out a sampling plan that goes beyond the sampling requirements.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay. My last point concerns Glenville and Carrignavar.
Ten houses were built in 2009. They were actually built and because of water and wastewater there is no one living in them. Why have they not been included in capital investment for 2025 to 2029? We are being told that is unlikely to be in place until after 2029. These houses will be 20 years old at that stage.
Ms Angela Ryan:
We can follow up on the specific area. However, that prioritisation for the small towns and villages fund is done in conjunction with the local authorities. Our forward planning teams meet with the local authorities and the local authorities submit the priority sites in that regard. There is methodology for the local authorities to influence where the money from that earmarked fund is spent.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Ms Ryan.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Ms Ryan, Mr. Gleeson and Ms Attridge for their attendance today. It has been very helpful and informative for us. I also thank Ms Egan and Ms Murphy. I have no doubt they were taking note of all those responses to get back to the Deputies. That concludes the meeting.