Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The public business before us this afternoon is minutes of the meetings of 23 May and 30 May, accounts and statements, correspondence, consideration of draft work programme and any other business. I will deal with the minutes first. The minutes of our meetings of 23 May and 30 May 2024 have been circulated. Do any members wish to raise any matters regarding those? Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, the minutes will be published on the committee’s webpage.

Item two is accounts and financial statements. Ten sets of accounts and financial statements have been laid between 20 May and 7 June. I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to address them before opening the floor.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

First, we have Kerry Education and Training Board accounts for 2022. It received a clear audit opinion. Second is Moorepark Technology Limited, a subsidiary of Teagasc. This relates to 2023. It received a clear audit opinion. Third is Home Building Finance Ireland for 2023. It received a clear audit opinion. Also submitted is Home Building Finance Ireland (Lending) Designated Activity Company, a subsidiary of Home Building Finance Ireland for 2023. That also received a clear audit opinion. Fifth is the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council for 2022. This received a qualified audit opinion. The accounts give a true and fair view except that they account for the costs of retirement benefit entitlements of staff only as they become payable, which is the standard accounting treatment for pension liabilities for many health bodies. Sixth is Ordnance Survey Ireland. These are the final accounts of Ordnance Survey Ireland as a stand-alone entity. They relate to 1 January 2022 to 28 February 2023. They received a clear audit opinion. Seventh is Maynooth University for the period 2022 to 2023. It received a clear audit opinion. Eighth is Trinity College Dublin for 2022 to 2023. It received a clear audit opinion. Ninth is the University of Galway for 2022 to 2023. It received a clear audit opinion.

However, in that case I drew attention to two frauds relating to breaches of IT controls that are referenced in the statement on internal control. One of the frauds resulted in a loss of €29,000, while the other resulted in a payment from a partner university being misdirected. As of yet, there has not been a hit for the University of Galway in relation to that one. Finally, InterTrade Ireland which is one of the North-South bodies, in relation to 2022 and those financial statements, received a clear audit opinion. However, there was a delay in the submission from 15 January, when the accounts were signed off, to 6 June when they were submitted. It may be because they are cross-Border bodies that it is taking longer to get everything sent to the committee. However, the committee might like to follow up on the reason for the delay.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Regarding No. 9 and the two frauds related to breaches of IT controls, one resulted in the loss of €29,000, while the other resulted in a payment from a partner university being misdirected. The briefing says that the bank details of a supplier account were amended without adherence to the existing internal controls. Who is the supplier being referred to here?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I think in the case of the loss of €29,000 it was a supplier to the university. The way bank account diversion works is that the person attempting the fraud will send new bank account details for an entity that he or she knows is a supplier. The fraudster sends new banking instructions and then when a payment comes to be made, on foot of an invoice, it is a legitimate creditor, as far as the university is concerned but the money is sent to the wrong account.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. It came from the supplier's email address but it refers to that address being hacked. I presume this means that someone go into the supplier's IT system and emails and sent it from that and gave instruction to misdirect it.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That seems to be the case.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, I just wanted to clarify that.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is the Garda involved in this matter?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I cannot say offhand, but I imagine that the matter has been reported. I can follow up on it and check for the committee.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I want to ask about Nos. 3 and 4. The amounts are exactly the same, €33.7 million, and relate to the same years. Are they one and the same organisation?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Effectively, much of the actual dealing and contracting is done by the company but the parent owns the company, so all of the profits come to the State agency, as opposed to the company.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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But are they two separate, audited accounts with exactly the same amount?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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This is unusual, is it not?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It is but it does arise in a few cases. It suits from a tax and legal perspective for some of the agencies that we have.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding InterTrade Ireland, did Mr. McCarthy say it was late?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, in respect of the accounts, the certificate was issued on 15 January but it took until 6 June for them to be submitted.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is supposed to be done within a six-month period. Is that correct?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

We would expect it to be done within three or four months, as a maximum.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. We can send a letter to InterTrade Ireland pointing this out and asking for the reason for the delay? Is that agreed? Agreed.

As usual, the fiscal accounts and financial statements will be published as part of the committee's minutes as normal.

We will now move on to correspondence. As previously agreed, the items that are not flagged for discussion at this meeting will be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated and decisions taken by the committee in relation to correspondence will be recorded in the minutes of the committee's meetings and published on the committee's web page. Six items have been flagged under category B, correspondence from Accounting Officers or their Ministers or both and follow up to PAC meetings.

No. R2608 is from Ms Kate Duggan, the new CEO of Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, and is dated 16 May. It provides to the committee in relation to international protection accommodation services, IPAS, centres. It is proposed to note and publish this item. Is that agreed? Agreed. I have flagged this item for discussion. It was deferred from the meeting of 30 May 2024. The issue of concern in it was that it said that Tusla does not play a role in terms of unvetted staff in the IPAS centres, where obviously there are children. It appears that HIQA has responsibility for this. It is reassuring that someone is doing it but I just wanted to point that out. We will agree to note and publish the item.

No. R2609 is from Ms Oonagh Buckley, Secretary General at the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. It is dated 15 May and provides correspondence to the committee in relation to the National Cyber Security Centre, NCSC. It is proposed to note and publish the item. Is that agreed? Agreed. We asked for a briefing regarding NIS2 but the response says that the Department is preparing and developing processes. There is no completion date. The correspondence states:

In preparation for the NIS2 directive the NCSC are: Preparing cyber security risk management measures which give effect to the requirements of the NIS2 Directive and guidance documents on how to comply with those cyber security measures.

Developing a self-assessment framework which essential and important entities can use to ensure adherence to the requirements of the directive and to facilitate competent authorities to access their compliance.

We will note and publish that.

No. R2614 is from Mr. John Conlon, the new Chairperson of the OPW. It is dated 23 May 20024 and provides correspondence to the committee in relation to non-compliant procurement. It is proposed to note and publish this correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

This states that they actively engaged with the Office of Government Procurement. However, the Comptroller and Auditor General has flagged non-compliant procurement. Obviously, we went through that with them this morning but I just wanted to note that. They said they will take measures to stop it so hopefully by the time of their next appearance here the situation will have improved.

No. R2615 is from Ms Oonagh McPhillips, Secretary General at the Department of Justice. It is dated 23 May and provides correspondence to the committee in relation to the International Protection Office, IPO, referrals to Tusla. It is proposed to note and publish this item. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I just want to make a point on this. Under the table on the first page it states, "It is important to note that once a referral is made to Tusla, any application for international protection that may have begun is ceased." This is obviously until the age of the individual has been determined. It also notes that "Tusla may conduct reassessment of individuals and consequently, the number of unaccompanied minor/deemed adult applications is subject to change".

Can we ask if we have the correct information for 2022? I am not sure if the table answers my question, which was how many of those referred to Tusla were deemed not to be children. I am asking that question and would like clarification.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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When representatives of Tusla were before us, Ms Kate Duggan indicated that a number of people who were referred to Tusla were no longer children. A certain number of them were older than 18.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The Deputy's question may be answered in No. R2619, which is from Tusla.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There have been 102 in the first five months of the year. That seems to have accelerated rapidly in the first five months of the year. The numbers are far higher than in the previous three years.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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These are international protection applicants as opposed to those under temporary protection. They are international protection applicants rather than Ukrainians, if you like.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There was a separate cohort from Ukraine, some of whom were found to be beyond the age of 18.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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They may be only marginally beyond that age. I am not seeing the answer to my question.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

No. R2619 refers to separated children seeking international protection data. The number of referrals made to Tusla in 2023 by the International Protection Office for assessment of services under the Child Care Act 1991 was 199. The number of people referred to Tusla who were found not to be eligible for service under the Child Care Act was 29.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I see it there.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There may be a delay in the assessment but only 29 were adjudged not to be eligible under the Child Care Act.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The next lines could be a cause of confusion. The correspondence refers to the number of children of whom Tusla are aware and who were reported missing during the period. There were seven in 2022 and 49 in 2023, and there have been 13 so far in 2024. Of those 69 young people, 37 have returned or have been accounted for, but there is a gap there from 37 to 69, which amounts to 32 missing children. This is a particularly vulnerable group. One is always concerned about trafficking because it does not stop when people get here. I am wondering about the protections in place. We hear about people being put up alone in bed and breakfast accommodation and that adds to their vulnerability. We must be concerned about a particular group. It would be useful to find out the circumstances or if there was anything unique about the circumstances. Were those children in the care of Tusla? I would like a little more information in that regard. We have a serious obligation when children are involved.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Deputy to frame her question. What is the question?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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When they arrive here, young people are sometimes put up in accommodation on their own and are not in a supervised setting. Are those the kinds of locations that children are going missing from?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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When the representatives of Tusla were before the committee, they were clear that they were using bed and breakfast accommodation for many of these young people. That was what I picked up.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Are the young people in such accommodation the ones who are going missing? That is the point.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is a discrepancy in the figures of approximately 30. Is that right?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The relevant figure is 32.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That was as of 9 May.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. We will seek further information as to what accommodation they are being kept in.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is there any common denominator in the accommodation from which the children are going missing?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The children we are talking about are obviously vulnerable and have been left in a situation where they might be exposed to further danger. That is of enormous concern. Many of those children are already vulnerable by virtue of how they have come here. We are talking about international protection applicants rather than temporary protection. From when the representatives of Tusla were before the committee, we know that a significant number of children have arrived from Ukraine in the same situation. We will seek that information on the Deputy's behalf.

Have we dealt with item R2619?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That item is agreed. We will note and publish that item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. R2628 is from Mr. Kevin McCarthy, Secretary General of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, dated 30 May. It provides a response to the committee on a number of issues that were raised at the meeting of 18 April. It is proposed to note and publish this item except for appendices 1 and 3A, which are deemed commercially sensitive. Is that agreed?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is agreed. May I make a comment?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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You may. Go ahead.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We sought quite a bit of information. We got one particular piece of information although I am not sure if it was in this group. I looked for the rate card for international protection and we got the rate card for temporary protection but not for international protection. Can we follow up on that? I want to go back over that correspondence to ensure we received everything we sought. We sought quite a bit of information and to be honest, I have not had the time to go through it in the kind of detail required. May we come back to that point?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We may. According to that correspondence from Mr. McCarthy, total expenditure on commercial property for the beneficiaries of temporary provision last year was over €1.1 billion. In quarter 1 of 2024, for the beneficiaries of temporary provision, who are Ukrainians, the spend was €214 million. It would seem to have slowed down a bit. The figure for the first three months of this year is lower. It would seem that fewer commercial properties have been used. The situation is not sustainable in the long term in the absence of a long-term plan and the State facilities that were promised. I note that. We note and publish that item of correspondence.

No. R2631 was received from Mr. David Gunning, chief officer, National Paediatric Hospital Development Board, dated 29 May 2024. It provides correspondence to the committee in response to a request for a copy of the BAM programme regarding a substantial completion date for the national children’s hospital. It is proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

We asked for information from the representatives of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board when they were before the committee. They refused to answer a question regarding the baseline programme. They said it was confidential under the contract and commercially sensitive. Will Mr. McCarthy offer an opinion on that?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Is the Cathaoirleach asking about the commercial sensitivity?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I certainly struggle to understand what the commercial sensitivity is in all of these cases. I am examining the cost escalation on that particular project and will defer any definitive comment on it.

One matter arises from the letter. Mr. Gunning states that the latest baseline programme submission was 29 September 2023. It was evaluated by the employer's representative, ER, and determined as not being compliant. It does not state how long it took for that assessment to be arrived at and, therefore, how long the board had been waiting for a further proposal from the contractor. It seems to be conflicting that on every occasion they are here, representatives of the board are not in a position to give information, which is a difficulty for the committee and certainly a difficulty for me.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Once these are signed off on and done and dusted, the board should be in a position to do so.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

This is the problem. The contractor is submitting a proposed compliant programme but it is not being accepted by the employer's representative. The question then is how long it takes to determine that. They made the point that this is a complex document. The processes are taking so long that this committee is not in a position to get useful or reasonable information.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Did we ask the board to notify us when it gets the documentation relating to the substantial completion material, given there is a delay? Will the board let us know when that is in and whether it is accepting it at that stage?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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A further request was made for details of the baseline programme. That has issued. That was part of the follow-up to our last meeting with them. That is gone

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We did ask for the information.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is welcome that that is happening. That concludes the correspondence.

Moving on to the work programme, members have been circulated with a draft for discussion. It is displayed on their screens now. On 20 June, we will engage with the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, IHRB, and Horse Racing Ireland, HRI, in respect of their respective 2022 financial statements. Representatives from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine have also been invited to attend. The Department has confirmed that the IHRB's 2022 financial statements will be laid this week.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I am sorry. I will come back to this matter.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is okay. Hold your fire for a minute. I did not see the programme the Deputy is going to talk about but I heard about it.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It was shocking.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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On 27 June, we will engage with the RSA regarding its 2022 financial statements and the following areas of interest: road safety statistics and performance metrics; outcomes from the expenditure in the accounts; vehicle testing; driver testing; the issuing of driver's licences; and GDPR issues that arise in providing accident information to local authorities, which is one that is a bit of a puzzle but anyway.

On 4 July 2024, we will meet with Waterways Ireland in relation to its 2022 financial statements.

On 11 July, we will meet with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine regarding Vote 30 – Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and chapter 10 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's annual report - estate management in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

Do Members wish to comment on or add to the work programme?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I just think our timing on a few things is good. I refer to that shocking television programme last night. Some of what it covered was happening in my constituency. Will we have an issue because some of these matters are being referred to the Garda?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There could be, so we may decide to get a legal briefing before we hold the meeting. It might be no harm to do so. Is the Deputy happy enough with that?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The representatives of the organisations have been invited and they are coming in. This matter will come up. How will deal with it and talk to it-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is going to be just one hell of a frustrating experience if the representatives keep on answering by saying, "We cannot talk about this issue because it is a live Garda investigation."

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We are running up towards t the end of this term, if not the end of this Dáil. In any event, we have to make provision for the autumn and that we will be here.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does the Cathaoirleach know something I do not? I thought we were going until March next year.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No, I do not. I am reading the body language around this place. The Deputy was talking about extra seats in the Dáil Chamber and new chairs being put in, so I can see we are getting ready.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes, and to fill them with our people.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We cannot all be up at the same time. Based on previous discussions we had, I will make suggestions for September. One is to bring in representatives of Uisce Éireann. Its accounts should be laid before the committee.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

They should be. I have signed off on those accounts. They have not been presented yet, but I would expect that they would come through.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The University of Limerick is another body of interest. Turning to RTÉ, while we are out of the period of compellability, we can bring in its representatives on the basis on which we have brought them in before if members wish to do so? Would Deputy Murphy like to comment on this aspect? The organisation will report to us in June on the progress made in implementing the 21 recommendations in our report. It is important that we bring back in the representatives from RTÉ during this Dáil.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Can we just hold off on that until we have a look through the information? I have no problem with such a meeting being on the schedule. There may be one or two other organisations on our list that we may really need to have come before the committee.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Deputy talking about those on the list?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes. I would like to have time to go through it. There are big ticket items like housing and some of the spending on transport, although we had witnesses before us in that regard quite recently. We had the NTA in.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Exactly, yes. There is an outstanding chapter relating to the motor tax fund. There is not anything significant in it other than the continuing decline in the receipts as the basis of taxation works through but representatives of the Department have not been in with the committee for quite some time.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The Charities Regulator is another body I might need to look at.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I do not think its representatives have ever been in.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There are fairly recent questions that would certainly indicate it would be a useful meeting.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There will be a meeting with the Department of House, Local Government and Heritage.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes, and the Charities Regulator.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I agree with the Cathaoirleach about Uisce Éireann. It is a pity we did not have its representatives in with the committee before now.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is potentially four parties appearing before the committee, or five if we go with the RTÉ meeting as well.

In relation to horse racing, we can discuss the overall processes but matters that have been referred to the Garda are out of our remit. Current expenditure is also outside it until the 2023 and 2024 accounts are audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General. As is normal, we will discuss those accounts anyway once they have been submitted or they can be referred to. There are several items that can be added. We do need to add too many; three or four weeks will do it.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Even in a couple of weeks, however, we may well need to have another look at this schedule.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Something normally does pop up over the summer.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Are any special reports under way?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I am working on a report on the IFI and on the University of Limerick. I am also looking at prompt payment of accounts. Those are the ones in progress, but there is still a clearance process to be gone through with them. I think in both cases it would be best if the 2023 financial statements were available when the committee examines witnesses from the organisations. I would say these are autumn calls for the committee rather than for September.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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A meeting with the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board might be another item for the schedule at that stage.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

As I said, I am working on a piece in that regard as well, but it is not as far advanced.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I propose that the secretariat circulate the autumn work programme and the suggestions made regarding it ahead of next week's meeting. Do the members have any other suggestions for meetings or to bring to the notice of the secretariat? As we have done in the past few years, I have a proposal for our first meeting when we come back after the recess. We return on a Wednesday, so we would be scheduled to have a meeting the next day. I suggest the first meeting should be a business meeting.

This is because there will be a bale of correspondence matters to be dealt with. Is that agreed? Agreed. I think we are coming back on 17 September or 18 September.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There will also be a significant number of financial statements to deal with.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The National Ploughing Championships are on that week.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That is it. Priorities.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I hope it will be drier than last year. It is also proposed that we schedule a meeting with Uisce Éireann as a matter of priority. We will do that.

That concludes today's consideration of the work programme. Since there is no other business for the public agenda and everybody is happy, the committee will now go into private session briefly before adjourning until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 20 June 2024, when we will engage with officials from the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board.