Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Members and people looking in are very welcome to the Oireachtas Select Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage. We are meeting to look at the Revised Estimates: Vote 16 - Tailte Éireann; Vote 23 - the Electoral Commission, An Coimisiún Toghcháin; and Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

I welcome the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, the Minister of State, Deputy Alan Dillon, and the Minister of State, Deputy Malcolm Noonan, to the select committee this afternoon. They are joined by their officials. I thank all for their attendance.

As a first item of business, the draft imeachtaí for 12 November 2020 have been circulated. Are the imeachtaí agreed? The imeachtaí of 12 November 2020 are agreed.

No. 2 is the Revised Estimates. While the committee has no role in actually approving the Estimates, there is an opportunity for the committee to make the process more transparent and to engage in a meaningful way on the relevant performance issues. The Minister will give the committee a high-level overview of the Revised Estimates and the Department's performance related to expenditure in each programme area. I ask the Minister to keep this to five minutes. We will then go to members to ask questions on the documentation circulated.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank members and the Chair. I welcome the opportunity to discuss with the committee the Department's Revised Estimates for 2024 and the Votes for Tailte Éireann and the Electoral Commission, which are also under the aegis of this Department. I am joined by the Minister of State with responsibility for local government and planning, Deputy Alan Dillon, and by the Minister of State with responsibility for nature and heritage, Deputy Malcolm Noonan. I am also joined by officials. We provided a brief in advance so I will keep my remarks brief and focus on the main critical areas of expenditure. The Estimate before the committee totals €6.9 billion for the year and is comprised of €3 billion in current funding and €3.9 billion capital. In addition there is €141 million capital carryover from 2023 and €151 million from the proceeds of the local property tax, meaning that some €7.2 billion in funds will be managed across Vote 34 this year. This Estimate reflects the transfer of a number of functions from my Department. All existing staff and financial resources associated with oversight and governance of the Maritime Area Regulatory Authority, MARA, marine spatial planning and the foreshore services have transferred to the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications.

I will now take the committee briefly through the key areas of expenditure for 2024. This is the third year of the implementation of Housing for All. We had a detailed discussion on that in advance of this meeting and I will not rehash the points that have already been made. I will focus on the key areas from a funding perspective.

Overall, this year €5 billion in capital funding is being provided through a combination of Exchequer funding, lending by the HFA and investment by the Land Development Agency. The capital investment will be supplemented by a further €1.5 billion to support the implementation of current funded housing programmes. This funding provision will ensure that 29,000 additional households will have their housing needs met through the provision of over 23,000 social homes via new build, acquisition, leasing and through HAP and RAS, and a further 6,400 households supported to buy or rent at an affordable price. While we talk of households and homes and units, each of us here today needs to remember that, in reality, we are talking about approximately 100,000 people having their housing needs met or supported by the State in 2024, and that is significant. The overall funding provision in 2024 also ensures continued investment for the implementation of Housing for All. Members here today may have noted the Euroconstruct report. I have discussed that previously and I will not dwell on it.

Our priority is obviously to continue the housing output that we have and that is underpinned by the capital investment, but supporting individuals and families facing homelessness is a key priority for the Government. Budget 2024 provides €242 million in funding for homeless services, which will support the provision of emergency accommodation and supports that households require to exit emergency accommodation as expeditiously as possible, to a tenancy or, indeed, to prevent them from entering emergency accommodation in the first instance. This funding, I can assure members, will be kept under continuous review throughout the year. Critical to supporting households to exit homelessness is increasing the supply of housing and we are firmly focused on the continued acceleration of social housing delivery.

Almost 12,000 social homes were delivered in 2023, through the build, acquisition and leasing streams, including 8,110 new-build homes - the highest level in nearly 50 years. The main focus for 2024 continues to be on capital investment to deliver new-build homes to support households on social housing waiting lists. Some 12,930 social homes will be delivered and the majority of these, 9,300, will be new-build homes. Importantly, the Government has, again, agreed to an increased provision to acquire 1,500 social homes with the primary focus on properties where a tenant is in receipt of social housing supports and has received a notice to quit due to the owner's intention to sell the property. This scheme delivered over 1,800 acquisitions in 2023, vastly exceeding the target we set. In addition, a further 10,200 new tenancies will be supported in 2024 through the housing assistance payment scheme and the rental accommodation scheme.

In line with Government's commitment under Housing for All, more affordable homes will be delivered in 2024, building on the progress already made in 2023 where over 4,000 affordable housing supports were delivered through our delivery channels - approved housing bodies, local authorities and the LDA, through the first home scheme, the cost rental tenant in situscheme and the vacant property refurbishment grant. These figures represent an increase of 128% on 2022 delivery, which highlights the significant progress achieved to date in relation to affordable housing from a standing start.

Notwithstanding delivery challenges associated with significant increases in construction costs, higher interest rates and supply chain issues combining to have a real impact on the cost of housing provision, an ambitious programme of affordable housing is now in place from a standing start in 2021. In addition to the funding provision for the delivery of new social, affordable and cost rental homes, the investment provided for housing this year will also address the broader range of critical housing areas. This includes measures to support the specific housing needs of people with a disability and Travellers, initiatives to tackle vacancy, remediation of defective homes, energy retrofitting measures, upgrading and adaptation works and ensuring the better utilisation of existing local authority stock.

In relation to water, the programme for Government has committed to Ireland complying with the water framework directive and, among other measures, to launch a new revised and strengthened river basin management plan. This draws on a collaborative approach between all stakeholders. My Department has made substantial progress on how we manage our water quality and our water services, which continue to undergo significant reform in the approach to the delivery of water services and the promotion of wider environmental protection. The implementation of the Government policy paper on water services transformation is well advanced with Uisce Éireann as the national stand-alone publicly owned regulated utility.

In 2024, we will providing €1.6 billion to Uisce Éireann for the delivery of water services. This includes €974 million in capital to allow them to continue their capital investment programme to modernise and expand the capacity of Ireland’s water infrastructure. Such projects include Ringsend, Arklow and the Athlone main drainage project, which will raise network capacities, increase water quality and bring us closer to compliance with European directives. This record level of investment will ensure that Uisce Éireann can support the delivery of the Government's housing objectives under Housing for All. In addition, Uisce Éireann is taking additional actions to support housing connections to public water services. This is being done through the publication of capacity registers, engaging with the LDA on identifying land suitable for development and facilitating self-lay accreditation, which we started on a pilot basis in 2021 and now is being used widely across the country. My Department also continues to invest directly in rural water services through the rural water programme by allocating over €67 million in 2024. A new multi-annual rural water programme will be launched by my Department in the coming months. This will also include a new element to support the provision of wastewater treatment in non-sewered villages.

The Minister of State, Deputy Dillon, will shortly speak on matters related to local government but I want to mention the significant level of Exchequer funding that has been allocated to support fire services in 2024, with a total envelope of €53.2 million being made available. This includes €25 million in capital funding to support investment in fire service infrastructure, the front-line emergency fleet and necessary equipment and building on the progress made in the preceding years of the capital programme. This total level of investment underpins my Department's continuing commitment to develop the structures, equipment and response capacity of the fire services. The allocation also includes funding towards the cost of a WRC agreement that was agreed between the retained firefighters and their employers, supported by me and my Department, last year. This new pay agreement will see firefighters paid a significantly increased fixed salary in tandem with reduced attendance requirements, supported by additional recruitment for the service, in recognition of the vital role that they play in keeping our communities safe across the Republic.

Furthermore, on the local government sector, the Government will be making a contribution of €466.2 million to support local authorities in their work in 2024. It should be noted that, following the conclusion of local property tax baseline review, and in recognition of the raising costs and demands facing the sector, every local authority will receive an increase of at least €1.5 million in baseline funding under the LPT allocation. Of course, it is important to note that this week is a historic week for local government, with the election of the first directly elected mayor in the country, in Limerick and I wish the mayor every success in his new role.

Other key developments this week relate to the significant and important work on the Planning and Development Bill 2023, which, as the committee will be aware, concluded in the Dáil last night. This Bill will bring about increased clarity to the legislation and improvements in how the planning system functions for both practitioners and the general public and is the culmination of rigorous legal review by the Office of the Attorney General and engagement across key stakeholders, both public and private.

On Met Éireann, this year in excess of €58 million will be provided to Met Éireann enabling the provision of a range of meteorological services to customers, including monitoring, analysis and prediction of Ireland's weather and climate to ensure the quality, timeliness and reliability of these essential services.

Before I hand over to the Ministers of States, Deputies Dillon and Noonan, I would like to acknowledge the work of both Tailte Éireann and the Electoral Commission - An Coimisiún Toghcháin and the positive contribution that they have made since their establishment last year.

I have tried to keep my remarks as brief as possible and now I will hand back to the Cathaoirleach to allow the Ministers of State in.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank the Minister. I call the Minister of State, Deputy Dillon, and then the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, will speak.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the opportunity to discuss with the committee the Estimate for 2024 in the areas of local government, planning, Traveller accommodation and support, and housing for people with a disability and older people.

Supporting vulnerable households with their housing needs continues to be of paramount importance. I am particularly pleased, therefore, that more than €271 million in dedicated funding is being provided in 2024 to meet the needs of older people, disabled people and the Traveller community. Some €100 million in Exchequer funding is being provided for both private housing adaptation grants and adaptation grants for local authority-owned social homes. The Exchequer funding will be supplemented by local authorities' contributions and will deliver up to 15,000 grants for older and disabled people in 2024. More broadly, housing for older people and disabled people is also funded from the main social housing investment programme and from the capital assistance scheme, CAS, where €140 million is being allocated in 2024. A further €28 million in dedicated funding is being provided in 2024 to support the Traveller community.

This year marks the 125th anniversary of the first local government elections in the country. It is perhaps fitting, therefore, that we have just been through our own local elections, but also that the first ever mayor with executive functions was directly elected by the people of Limerick City and County Council last week, marking one of the most significant reforms of local government in the State. The new Mayor, John Moran, who will shortly take up office, will be directly accountable to the people and will be a champion for Limerick locally, nationally and internationally, and have direct access to national government. This is a particularly exciting time for local government in Ireland. I look forward to following the progress of this historic office.

The Local Government Fund’s primary purpose is to channel local property tax, LPT, to local authorities following collection by the Revenue Commissioners, as well as supporting certain local authority initiatives. Apart from the LPT moneys being collected by Revenue, the Government is making a significant contribution of an additional €466 million from the fund to support local authorities in 2024. A large portion of this contribution, €332 million, will be towards assisting local authorities with the cumulative effect on pay costs arising from national pay agreements. The remainder of the 2024 Exchequer contribution to the fund will be used to supplement LPT yield in the 21 local authorities that require equalisation, that is, in those authorities where LPT yield falls below the baseline. Following a review of LPT baselines last year, baselines will increase by €75 million in 2024, with a minimum increase of at least €1.5 million for each authority. This increase should go some way towards easing pressures on the sector.

I am also pleased to inform the committee that a new local government code of governance was agreed and finalised earlier this year with the sector. The new code reflects the nature and governance arrangements of local government in Ireland, while building on the code of practice for the governance of State bodies. Roll-out of the code will begin during 2024 with full implementation, following a transitional phase, from the 2025 financial year.

There is significant activity and funding in respect of planning, including €136 million for the urban regeneration and development fund in 2024 and more than €39 million funding for the operational budgets of An Bord Pleanála and the Office of the Planning Regulator. I am very pleased to say that the Planning and Development Bill 2023 passed in Dáil Éireann last night. This significant and important work is the culmination of rigorous legal review by the Office of the Attorney General and engagement across a wide range of Departments, supplemented by the experience and input of more than 30 key organisations across the Irish planning sector, both public and private. The key aim of the Bill is to put plan-making at the centre of the planning system. This will be brought about by bringing increased clarity to the legislation and improving the functioning of the planning system for both practitioners and the general public while protecting public participation, which is a hallmark of the current planning system.

I thank the Chair and members for their time. I will hand over to the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, who will speak about the important work being funded in the areas of heritage, electoral reform, and water and the marine environment.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus leis an gcoiste. I welcome the opportunity to discuss with the committee the Estimate for 2024 in the areas of nature, heritage and electoral reform.

The National Monuments Service, the built heritage programmes and the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, are an integral part of what the Department delivers on behalf of the people. These divisions are active, through their dedicated staff, in every part of the country, in preserving and protecting our natural and built heritage for the benefit of present and future generations. Funding for our heritage programme has increased to €166 million in 2024, representing an 8.5% increase on 2023. I will outline some examples of how this funding is used across the heritage division.

As we all know, Ireland is known around the world for its wonderful biodiversity and natural heritage connected to our marine waters. With this in mind, we joined other State-owned properties at Sceilg Mhichíl, Inishtearaght, na Blascaodaí, Derrynane and Valencia Island, together with the waters at Kerry Head shoals, around an Sceilg, na Blascaodaí and Puffin Island, to form Ireland’s eighth national park; Páirc Náisiúnta na Mara, Ciarraí. The creation marks a momentous milestone in Ireland’s commitment to preserve the beauty and biodiversity of our oceans while fostering economic development and prosperity in our community. Building on the Brú na Bóinne National Park, this is our eighth national park. The NPWS is also expanding its role in tackling wildlife crime, with new directorates and boots on the ground, to address the biodiversity crisis.

I was delighted to be in Omeath on 4 June to see the start of construction of the Narrow Water Bridge project. In linking the Mourne Mountains in County Down with the Cooley Peninsula in County Louth, this bridge will serve not just as a physical infrastructure project but a symbol of community, togetherness and hope. It is funded from the shared island fund and embodies the vision, values and purpose of that fund perfectly.

I am delighted to say that the National Monuments Service and the national built heritage service have this year awarded €17 million to 810 different projects throughout the country. These come under our built heritage investment scheme's historical structures fund and community monuments fund. This investment will help keep our monuments and traditional buildings in good repair, reduce carbon emissions from unnecessary new construction, and enhance the amenity of our cities, towns, villages, and countryside. These are truly transformative grant schemes.

Funding from the heritage programme also enables the Heritage Council to undertake its excellent work, which includes the historic towns initiative, support for the National Biodiversity Data Centre, and vital grant support to community heritage groups. I call particular attention to the work the Heritage Council does to enhance the capacity of local authorities to manage the heritage assets in their care. I hope to see this extended to the full suite of heritage professions in the near future. This will add architectural conservation officers and archivists to our biodiversity officer programme.

Moving to the area of franchise, I am pleased to say that since its formal establishment on 9 February last year, An Coimisiún Toghcháin has made a positive contribution to improving our democratic processes, some of which I will outline. Since its establishment, it has reviewed and made recommendations on the constituency boundaries for the Dáil and European Parliament elections adopted through the Electoral (Amendment) Act 2023. It also provided information to the public on the subject matter of the two referendums, family and care, held in March this year, and commenced work on a post-electoral event review of the administration of the referendums, particularly focused on polling stations and supports provided to disabled people in voting.

Other areas included a draft research programme from 2024 to 2026, voter education, responsibility for the registration of political parties, oversight of the electoral register and the publication of a framework on online electoral process information, political advertising and deceptive AI content. The framework aims to complement existing EU and international initiatives, such as the EU code of practice on disinformation, and was particularly aimed at supporting the integrity of our European Parliament, local authority and Limerick mayoral elections held on 7 June 2024.

The budget for an coimisiún in 2024 is €11.799 million. This funding will provide a strong base for an coimisiún in its first full year of operations as it builds capacity and expertise. The 2024 allocation for the electoral registration modernisation programme is €3 million. Last year saw some 134,000 online applications to register or update details. A further €1.7 million was allocated to local authorities in 2024 to continue their work to improve data quality on the electoral register. In the run-up to electoral events in the first half of 2024, the new processes and systems enabled some 430,000 online applications. Capital funding of €2.5 million for 2024 is targeting the new national shared electoral registration system, with work to begin in quarter 3 of this year.

I thank members for their time. The Minister, Minister of State and I look forward to their questions.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank the Minister of State. Before we proceed, and in light of last week's elections, it is only right to acknowledge the hard work done by local authority staff and returning officers in all of the count centres throughout the country.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Some of them are still counting as we sit here. The operation was professionally run and they are protecting our democracy. The count centre is a great leveller. Every one of us walks into it worried and concerned. I acknowledge the work done in all of the count centres.

The Limerick mayoral election is an important step forward in local democracy. This committee dealt with the directly elected mayor for Limerick legislation, and it is great to see that process completed. On behalf of the committee, I congratulate the new Mayor, Mr. John Moran. His is a pioneering role and I wish him the very best in it. I hope to see other districts taking up that opportunity, as doing so is covered by that legislation.

I acknowledge all of those who put themselves forward on the ballot papers. It took bravery and courage to do so. I congratulate all of those who have been successful and everyone else who participated.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister and Ministers of State for their opening statements.

The role of this committee in scrutinising Estimates is important and one that a number of us take seriously. We do that by tracking what is committed on budget day through the abridged Estimates Volume, how that is then finalised in the Revises Estimates Volume in December, and the subsequent changes to that through Supplementary Estimates. In most of the years I have been on this committee, there have been three, four or, as in this instance, five changes after the budget’s announcement. There is nothing wrong with that and the Government is entitled to make those changes, but it is important that this committee have documentation to be able to track those changes. Traditionally, officials in the Department, the Minister and his predecessors have been forthcoming with that information.

The Minister will remember that our previous conversation about Estimates in a select committee meeting ended in a row. How very surprising for one of our engagements. It was over his unwillingness to provide me with the 2024 abridged Estimates Volume, AEV. I told him it was unfortunate that he would not provide it, given that it would be materially relevant to the questions I was going to ask about the Estimates before us today and it meant I would have to waste the officials’ time, the freedom of information section’s time and the Ceann Comhairle’s office’s time in having to squeeze that information out of the Minister. And that is exactly what happened. I submitted a request to the Department. The information was not provided. I made a formal complaint to the Ceann Comhairle. He reverted to me with a letter the Minister had written to him in which the Minister actually claimed that there was no such thing as the AEV breakdown I was seeking. I then had to submit an FOI request, to which I received the information I had requested. The FOI response from the Department was interesting. According to it, a new record had been created to assist my query. This suggests that the record I was seeking did not exist prior to that.

The problem is that, separately, I had to FOI the Department of public expenditure asking for this information. I received a record from it, that being, an email to it from an official in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage prior to the budget with the very document I wanted. The information I requested from the Minister was there in October 2023.

I am not looking to have a row with the Minister about this, but it is such a waste of officials’ time, my time and the time of others when in previous years the information we requested was just given to us. As the Minister knows, the Ceann Comhairle has now written to him twice asking him to explain how he could have said something did not exist and a new record was being created only for us to discover that there had been a record all the time. I am not in any way criticising any official, as I know the officials work diligently on the Estimates, but it is an extraordinary set of affairs that information that has always been provided to committee members previously was not only refused, but there was an attempt to suggest that it did not exist. Thankfully, we now have it. When we request the abridged Estimates Volume after the publication of the budget, I only ask that the Minister provide it. We all know it is subject to change and we accept that that change is fine, but those changes are materially significant, particularly since Deputy O’Brien has become Minister, and we have an important role in scrutinising them.

Regarding the Estimates in front of us, I will make a comment and then ask a specific question. When the abridged Estimates for a number of capital subheads, the outturn and the various changes for last year are compared, the level of underspend is dramatic. For example, there was more than €300 million of an underspend in local authority funding. The underspend in the capital advance leasing facility was €18 million, €70 million in the affordable housing fund and €99 million in the cost-rental equity loan. To be fair, rather than as in previous years a large portion of that money not being used, the Department redistributed it and the capital assistance scheme increased significantly, as did others. Within the capital programmes for the delivery of new housing, though, the Department underspent last year by more than €200 million.

The Estimates in front of us have a reported carry-over of €151 million. What was that meant to be spent on that it was not spent on? The information may well be in the document we have, as it is normally listed in the formal Estimates booklet. Could someone explain the underspend to me or point to where it is in this document? It is usually contained in a very small footnote that is difficult to read. There is obviously a gap between the €206 million underspend across the key new social and affordable housing delivery programmes and the carry-over. I assume the Department has spent that money on something else. I would have no issue with that. Has that money been spent on something else or has anything been surrendered?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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Nothing has been surrendered. The additional amount – it was approximately €62 million – was allocated to the secure tenancy affordable rental investment scheme, STAR, to which we were receiving applications. We only opened that scheme late last year and there was a great deal of interest in it, so we wanted to secure those tenancies.

I will discuss the AEV in a minute and how we can present data to the committee.

We sought and got flexibility within our Vote last year, which we used wisely. This year, spending outturns are already way ahead of last year’s across all of the main subheads, for example, A3, social housing provision, affordable housing, etc. We also made changes to the cost-rental equity loan, which led to further increased applications under CREL. CREL was under pressure early last year because of the increased cost of development finance and so on, so we made significant changes to the loan to ensure those schemes were viable.

To answer the Deputy’s question, I believe the capital underspend was €141 million across a number of subheads, not just one. I will see if I can get some of the headline items for the Deputy now. If not, I will submit them to the committee in writing. That ensured there was a buffer on capital provision into this year. We have negotiated additional capital for this year as well because our spend is ahead of profile, and certainly ahead of last year’s, due to our increased activity across all of the main areas of our Vote. Through the national development plan, NDP, ceiling reviews, the Department has also received additional funding to ensure delivery.

Regarding the AEV, the Deputy and I have been writing back and forward. That is a budget document and is only at programme level. The REV is published each December. Between the budget and December, we work out the optimum subhead allocations. The document the Deputy received from the Department of public expenditure through an FOI request – I genuinely do not like to see people having to submit FOI requests for information – was a background document from that Department. It was not the specific document in question. We need to be allowed time and space between the AEV and the REV being published each December. Information was only provided in January after the publication of the REV. That was the information the Deputy got. The table provided by the Department of public expenditure was an internal informal working document.

That said, I have no difficulty with people being able to see what our output is, as long as it does not add incredible additional work. We bring to the Cabinet quarterly expenditure reports, too. What happened was never the intention.

It was just that what was asked for was genuinely not available at the time it was asked for. The document the Deputy got from the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform was a background document. I do not want to have a back and forth. I take the point. If something that can be helpful to Deputies can be provided at the time it is asked for, we always endeavour to do our best to provide it. We also always endeavour to answer parliamentary questions. We get hundreds of them across all the subheadings. We do that as best we can.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Again, I am not looking to have an argument, but a few of the things the Minister said are not accurate. I will set out the position. My understanding of the budgetary process is that there are essentially estimated Estimates in the abridged Estimates file. It exists. It is a table and it is not only at programme level. It is at sub-programme level. Every line item is itemised. When the budget is announced on budget day, it is the estimated funding underpinning all those announcements. Further work is done by the Departments between then and December when that is all finalised. Typically in previous years, there would be some changes but they would not be significant. How do we know? It is because in every previous year before the REV is concluded, the Secretary General under the Minister's predecessor provided us with the abridged Estimates volume, AEV, with sub-programme level. The document I got from the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform states that I have the AEV for Vote 34. It has all the subhead levels. The only reason I am saying this is that it was never an issue before. Every previous year, I wrote to the Secretary General who provided the information and it worked, including in the first year or so when the current Minister was in office.

So that we are all clear, in advance of the budget, there is a full abridged Estimates volume with a full list of heads and subheads. We all know it is a draft and that it gets revised, but that document exists. I am asking the Minister for a commitment that, as in previous years, after the budget is announced, when members of this committee request it, the Minister will just give it to us. I should not have had to pester his hardworking departmental officials, the freedom of information, FOI, office and the Ceann Comhairle to eventually get a document I knew existed, but which the Minister told the Ceann Comhairle in correspondence did not exist. Yet, here we have it. I am just asking the Minister, because it would mean we would not have to have these wasteful exchanges. The Ceann Comhairle is waiting for the Minister to reply to him to set out how it is that the Minister told him the document did not exist. The FOI officer then said a new record that was created to be helpful was being provided and then we got the record we asked for in the first place.

Could someone give me information about the capital underspend of €1.41 million? I presume it is in the Estimates document. It is normally detailed in that.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we have where it goes to.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I want to know where it comes from.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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Where it comes from is what I-----

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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In the most recent of these documents it was in such small writing that I found it hard to see, but it said how much came from each subhead.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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We will get the information on where it came from for the Deputy.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a reason it is not in the official Revised Estimates document? Normally those changes are tracked in the Revised Estimates document.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Deputy repeat his question?

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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In previous Revised Estimates there has been a table which shows where the carryover is and lists per subhead how much was underspent in the subhead to give the carryover, in this case of €1.41 million.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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Let me check that and come back to the Deputy. I am only being told where it is going. I will have to look at it and compare it with the previous ones.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Previous Revised Estimates also showed where it came from. It was a small sub-----

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I understand the point. I do not have it to hand.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

My final question is based on what the Minister said. For example, local authority funding on the capital assistance scheme, CAS, cost rental equity loan, CREL, scheme, the affordable housing fund and the first home scheme is chronically underspent every year. Will this year be the first year the money for those programmes will be spent in the full year?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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With the pipeline and demand we have, we will have to manage the Vote carefully. That is why we sought and received approval for additional funding. We have already added additional funding to the first home scheme and the affordable housing fund. For this reason, I think we will spend out.

I am trying to see, such is my eyesight, but I will get clarification. I think there is a note indicating where the small carryover came from and where the reallocation was. It notes the specific subheads.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, it just gives the A-----

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Is that this year's or last year's? It is a Supplementary Estimate from last year.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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What I have is the 2024 Further Revised Estimates.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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We have that and will get it for the Deputy. That is the net. It is here, but in very small writing that I can barely see.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister might get one of the officials to show it to me after the meeting, if that is okay.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we will give it to the Deputy.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister mentioned the first home scheme. On the capital funding for local authorities, namely CAS, the affordable housing fund and CREL, on the basis of what the Minister has seen so far, is he saying this will be the first year that what was allocated in the AEV and REV will be spent in full?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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In certain areas we actually overspent last year and had to reallocate moneys. The pipeline is so strong for delivery this year that I expect us to spend that.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Across all the subheads.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. We sought and received flexibility within those subheads too. Towards the end of last year, we had to move money, as I mentioned. The secure tenancy affordable rental, STAR, scheme did not exist. I will not say that will not happen again. We might have a new delivery mechanism we have to fund, which we did successfully last year when the STAR scheme was opened. We needed to fund it. We made changes to CREL which we also needed to fund. Especially on the housing output side, across affordable and social housing, there is heavy expenditure already this year and I expect us to spend those subheads out.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I should have said that we will respond in detail to the Ceann Comhairle's letter. There is no question of us trying to hold back information. I assure the Deputy of that.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister said the document did not exist and then we got it.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I could go back and forth with the Deputy now. I know he does not want to. The document he received from the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform was a working document.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Minister, it was the abridged Estimates. We know it is a working document, but the document existed and-----

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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No, that was-----

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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-----the Minister stated in a letter to the Ceann Comhairle that it did not.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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We will respond in detail to the Ceann Comhairle. The Deputy can be assured of that.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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For someone who writes a lot of letters to people, the Minister has been very slow in responding to the Ceann Comhairle.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has also been very slow in responding to my letters.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I only reply to serious letters.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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These are very serious letters-----.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Okay. The Deputies promised we would-----

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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-----about the impact of the withdrawal of the first-time buyers scheme

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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When can the Ceann Comhairle expect the response?

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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The Deputies twice promised we would not have a row and I think we are veering into one now.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I look forward to reading it.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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We do not want to see an underspend at all. We want to spend as much money as we can on housing for people who need it, are using homeless services and so forth. The capital underspend of €206 million that we are talking about is a very small percentage of the overall budget.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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It is minute. It was under 1%.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Yes, just to put it in context, notwithstanding that it is an underspend and we want to spend as much as we can and get good value for it.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it is under 1%.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Okay. I thank the Minister.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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What was the underspend on subhead A3, local authority housing, last year?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I will get the figure for A3. First, the total expenditure was €1,204,283,991.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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That is the amount that was actually spent.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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What was the underspend?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I will get that figure if the Deputy gives me a second.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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Okay.

Is there a reduction in the amount allocated to local authority housing in this year's Estimate?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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Some €220 million from subhead A3 was used to support other programmes. There is a reason for that. Some specific social housing developments were delayed and were not going to commence over the course of the year. The better thing to do was to reallocate that funding into things such as acquisitions to ensure the money was spent in appropriate areas, as we did with the land acquisition fund, which purchases land for the provision of new developments. We used those moneys wisely to ensure further delivery of social housing in upcoming years.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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There was a €220 million underspend under that heading and that was reallocated elsewhere.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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It was reallocated to other social housing measures.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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How does expenditure on local authority housing under subhead A3 in this year's Estimate compare to the original Estimate from last year?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I am just trying to get the overall figure for this year. I do not have it here. Hang on. I am sorry; I do have it. Overall capital expenditure was €2.535 billion.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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How does that compare to last year?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I have given the Deputy the figure for the spend. There is €1.246 billion left.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I am talking about subhead A3, which relates to local authority housing.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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As the Deputy can see, the capital allocation for 2024 under A3 is €1.131 billion.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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What was it in 2023?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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The outturn was €1.17 billion.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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What was the Estimate this time last year? How does it compare with the position 12 months ago?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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It was €1.5 billion.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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It was €1.5 billion.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it was there or thereabouts.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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That is a significant decrease in the Estimate.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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We reallocated €200 million this year.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I get that.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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That is not on the underspend; it is for this year. We have temporarily moved €200 million out of subhead A3 to support two other programmes. It is coming back in later this year with the approval we got for additional capital through the NDP ceilings. We negotiated additional capital for this year with the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform, which we will get later this year. On a temporary basis, we have moved €200 million out but it will come back in later in the year. It will be back later this year. Those programmes supported by that €200 million include the cost-rental tenant in situ scheme and the additional cost rental equity loan applications we received. We have moved that out of subhead A3 for the first part of this year but it will be coming back in.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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Is that an unusual once-off practice or does it happen often?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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It is not really unusual. There is a reason for it. In answering Deputy Ó Broin as regards what we would spend this year, I mentioned that our pipeline is very strong and we expect to spend out. Obviously, all Departments negotiated with the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform on their revised capital ceilings. We received an additional allocation, which we will get before the budget this year. At this stage in the year, we are not going to spend that €200 million on subhead A3 because, like last year, a lot of it is weighted towards the end of the year. We will have the additional capital later this year and that will go back into subhead A3.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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Earlier, the Minister said he would likely to be helpful to the committee in providing any available information we would find helpful. He referenced the quarterly updates he gives to the Cabinet on expenditure. To be helpful, as the Minister said he would be, will he provide those to the committee after he provides them to the Cabinet?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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We have a procedure in that we go to Cabinet with expenditure reports. People can track the expenditure through the Department. We have been able to get flexibility within our Vote. As I have just explained, we have agreed extra capital this year with the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform, as has the Department of Education. We got a significant amount extra because we are going to be delivering extra. When we can provide the committee information, we do.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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So the Minister will provide those quarterly updates.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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No, I am not saying that.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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The Minister said earlier he would be helpful and provide everything he could.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I said I would be helpful but, to be fair, there is a process and there are procedures in place when Government Departments report on their capital and current expenditure, as our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform also do. That is brought to Cabinet, the Government. Where we can be helpful to the committee, we will be.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I was just thinking, since the Department already has those reports, it would not be extra work.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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We will also be helpful to committee members.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I will ask the Minister about housing adaptation grants. As he will know, there is significant unmet need in this regard. There are also a lot of waiting lists operating in different local authorities. It is something that comes up in the Dáil frequently. Deputies from different constituencies frequently raise issues around housing adaptation grants, people not being able to get them and others waiting a long time to get them. As the Minister will know, they are a really good use of resources in that they help to keep people in their homes and their communities, which is obviously good for their well-being. There are also financial benefits when people are able to stay in their homes and do not have to move elsewhere. In the context of underspends and carryovers, is this an area we could be putting more resources into? Towards the end of the year, if there are underspends in other areas, could extra resources be put into this area?

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On the scheme itself, back in May we increased the 2024 allocation to €93 million. Some €75 million of that was from the Department and the remaining 20% was matched funding from the local authorities. The scheme delivers up to 13,000 grants each year. We hope to increase that to 15,000 grants. Some local authorities are better than others. We allow local authorities to front-load applications for the first six months on the basis of what they were allocated the previous year. As I said in response to questions from Senator Cummins, a review into restructuring the scheme is ongoing. As we enter the 2025 budgetary cycle, we hope that, with the agreement and approval of the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform, we can get commitments to further increase that funding. However, that review must be finalised. We are delivering a very high number of grants. As the Deputy said, they are essential for vulnerable people. These adaptations make a very significant difference to people's lives. We will continue to support this really important scheme.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I hope there will not be underspends in other areas towards the end of the year. I if there are, could putting more resources into this area be considered?

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely. We have seen some local authorities request additional funding. Those requests have been honoured on many occasions. We will continue to support local authorities to ensure that priority cases are dealt with. We continuously get feedback. In the Housing for All action plan, there is a commitment to revise the scheme. We will publish the recommendations and implement them as soon as we can.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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What is the timeline on that review?

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is at an advanced stage. We hope to publish a revised scheme over the summer period leading into September and quarter 3. We will also need to get a commitment from the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform on any budgetary commitments. The regulations will also need to be updated.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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It is a very important area.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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It is.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank Deputy O'Callaghan. Those were good questions. As we deal with the Estimates every year, I am reminded of the broad range of areas that fall under the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, including everything from Met Éireann to the National Parks and Wildlife Service to housing, which is obviously one of the priorities for this Government to deliver on.

As someone who was involved in big civil projects over the years, I know that when doing a project, you can get a really good run at it and end up drawing down more money than you expected within that timeframe, or you can hit a blockage and not be able to draw down money. It is always difficult to try to marry annual budgets to actual projects as they go along. That is probably one of the difficulties in that there is an underspend for some reason and the funding gets reallocated to something else. That adds to the difficulty for many of the people looking in today, given we are talking about huge figures here.

The output of housing for this year is 33,000 or slightly more. Apart from the public moneys that are allocated to deliver 33,000 units, we also need private investment to get up to that figure. Although there is no fixed figure, we all agree that something like 50,000 houses is going to be the next incremental target to be reached. How much more does the Minister think will have to be allocated from the Department’s public spend and from private investment to reach that?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I would take the Chairman’s point about the position if we were to take it that 50,000 was the target, although I am not saying that is the case. It came up at the last meeting and we will be having discussions based on our new targets and what that will look like with regard to capital investment, both public and private. Right now, to deliver an average of 33,000, it is about €13 billion to €14 billion, so if we take that leap up to 50,000, we are going upwards to €20 billion. That is what we are looking at in real terms between private and public.

The one advantage that Housing for All has had is that the State has funded it on a multi-annual basis so we are able to provide certainty to approved housing bodies and local authorities, and also the private sector because it knew the State was invested and we would not be going back every year. Earlier this year, we had negotiations within government regarding additional capital for this year but that was on top of what was already agreed. We have already set out what our capital expenditure will be over the term of this Government and that was agreed and was in the base, and it meant we could take that step up. To answer the question, if the target was about 50,000 per annum, we would be looking at €20 billion.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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That is €20 billion as the overall spend between public and private. Could we break it down into a 60:40 spend or what is the breakdown between public money and private investment?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I understand the question. We want to be more precise than that. When we set the targets this year, we will have to see what would be the commitment of any future Government or the Exchequer to deliver those homes. When we deliver affordable, social and cost rental, it unlocks other private developments. A lot of the developments that we are seeing now, including some superb ones in the Chairman's area of Wicklow, are multi-tenure developments. That is what we want to see. The social and affordable investment actually unlocks private investment. As I mentioned earlier, we are looking at the affordable housing fund and how we can position that. It has worked well in some local authorities but others need more support on it, to be frank. It is about how we can point that significant level of investment to get improved outcomes. The First Home scheme is a case in point and shows that for smaller Exchequer moneys, we can deliver more and have a greater impact.

We have had to be flexible over the period. The Chairman mentioned the underspends that were there. There was a reality in previous years when we could not build, effectively, and we had supply chain issues, so we rightly reallocated moneys. All day long, I will stand over the land acquisition fund, which means that local authorities and AHBs can apply to us to purchase lands. That will build our pipeline into the future. It is not short-termism but is looking into the medium and long terms to build up our land banks. Writing down the debt on local authorities that had encumbered sites was something that absolutely needed to be done. Having talked to the local authorities that were affected, I know some of them thought it would never be done. Again, that has unlocked those lands for future developments.

When people look back at those decisions in a couple of years, they will see they were the correct decisions for medium-term delivery. We have to look past the short term, year-on-year, and see how we can build a pipeline further towards the end of the decade.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I totally agree with the Minister. When we put money into that, while it does not actually result in greater housing numbers, it is good forward planning to be able to do that.

I will move to the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, on the National Parks and Wildlife Service. It was probably during 2008 and 2009 that its budget was cut by about 70%, although it was not within the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage at that stage. We have seen the investment and budget for the National Parks and Wildlife Service increasing each year. What has been the result? I visited a very impressive conservation site in Wicklow recently. We will have the National Parks and Wildlife Service before the committee in two weeks to discuss its strategy and resources. I ask the Minister of State to give an overview if he has that information to hand.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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Since we came into government, it has increased significantly. Total provisions for 2024, between capital and current, were €54.4 million. On the capital side, the investment has gone into the infrastructure in the parks, such as trails, access, interpretation and improvement of visitor facilities, but also in terms of management of invasive species - rodent management is a big one, particularly in Glenveagh and Killarney - and problematic species, such as through deer management. That is all quite capital-intensive in terms of nature restoration and we are also responsible for 80 nature reserves.

It is a huge level of responsibility given that we have also purchased or launched two new national parks. This significant investment is going to have to continue into the future. The restructuring of the National Parks and Wildlife Service and the creation of much a more robust structure of directorates has been quite successful, particularly if we look at the expansion of the park rangers and wildlife rangers across the country. We see the success they are having in tackling wildlife crime and working with landowners on issues like the farm plan scheme, which has been hugely popular in terms of restoring nature on land. We are also supporting other projects. There are the many LIFE projects that we are involved in, such as Corncrake LIFE, LIFE on Machair and Wild Atlantic Nature. Those LIFE projects are delivering significant investment into rural Ireland and communities and delivering for nature restoration. We see the corncrake figures and the figures for other indicator species all going in a positive direction.

Depending on the outcome of the meeting in Luxembourg next week and if there is a European nature restoration law, that will put additional requirements on the National Parks and Wildlife Service into the future to deliver on a nature restoration plan, which we have committed to under the fourth national biodiversity action plan. There is no doubt that from the low point when we came into government in 2020, we have come a long way to where we are now. I note the support across the Government but, in particular, the role of the Minister, Deputy O’Brien, in supporting and making the case for that. We are certainly in a much better place, although we are not underestimating the significant challenges and the requirements of the EU biodiversity strategy and what we signed up to in terms of the high-level contribution to the Kunming-Montréal declaration. The trajectory will have to continue in that vein over the next decade.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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The staffing numbers have also increased. On that recent visit, I was quite impressed to see younger staff there as well. It was an ageing staff and trying to find a ranger was like trying to find a corncrake - they were rare on the ground. That is quite impressive to see.

We have been talking in billions but there is a particular spend in local government that I would like to explore with the Minister. In the planning Bill, we made some changes to how a tree preservation order can be done. It can now be done by resolution whereas it was previously an executive function. I expect it to generate a desire and requests for tree preservation orders.

One of the things I was told at development plan stage was there was not the funding to do it. I wonder if the Minister and the Ministers of State could look to see if there is any opportunity, between heritage and local government, for a fund to which local authorities could apply to carry out tree preservation orders. The level of protection for trees in urban areas is minimal. This would absolutely help.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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Absolutely. I think so and the Minister of State, Deputy Dillon, may wish to comment as well. We have the local biodiversity action fund, which we have quadrupled over the past three years. That has been transformative as well as having ensured that with the Heritage Council we have a biodiversity officer in every county to support that work. When we embark on a national nature restoration plan there is an urban article in there which includes mandatory targets around urban tree cover. This will become much more pertinent as we look at nature-based solutions in trying to address flooding and cooling in our cities. It is something we could look at in the context perhaps of the local biodiversity action fund.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank the Minister of State.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I support the comments by the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, and the Chairman. I know the Chairman has raised this on Committee Stage of the Planning and Development Bill and also on Report Stage in the Dáil. I will work with officials within the local government section, with the Chairman, the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, and the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, to see what we could do in response.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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That concludes the questions. I thank the Minister and the Ministers of State for their attendance for the long session today. It was informative and helpful. I also thank the officials for their assistance and help today.

That concludes our consideration of the further Revised Estimates Vote 16 - Tailte Éireann; Vote 23 - the Electoral Commission; and Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage.