Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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No apologies have been received. I ask members to ensure their mobile phones are switched off because they interfere with the broadcasting equipment, even if they are on silent mode. Are the minutes of the meeting of 28 May agreed? Agreed.

We will have two sessions, the first of which will be a round-table discussion on climate action and sustainable development in primary and post-primary education. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Ms Evelyn O'Connor, principal officer, and Ms Leona De Khors, assistant principal, curriculum and assessment policy unit; Ms Esther Doyle, assistant chief inspector, principal officer equivalent, senior cycle development programme management office; Mr. John Dolan, technical officer, climate action, planning and building unit; Ms Majella O'Dea, assistant principal, teacher and professional learning section; and Ms Aoife Rush, director for curriculum and assessment, National Council for Curriculum and Assessment.

The officials are here to brief the committee on climate action and sustainable development education in primary and post-primary schools. I will invite Ms O'Connor to make a brief opening statement, which will be followed by questions from members. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statement on its website following today's meeting.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise, comment on or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. The officials are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.

Therefore if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by the Chair to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction by the Chair. Ms O'Connor may begin her opening statement and she has five minutes.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for inviting the Department here today. I am principal officer with responsibility for a number of areas including education for sustainable development, ESD. The Cathaoirleach has previously introduced my colleagues. ESD to 2030, our second national strategy, spans education from early learning and care through primary and post-primary to tertiary and beyond. We work closely with colleagues from the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.

Under our first strategy published in 2014, ESD themes and principles were embedded across the system into the curriculum, into assessment and inspection processes and into initial teacher education and CPD. ESD to 2030 builds on these foundations. It also aims to ensure that “all learners have the knowledge and skills needed to promote sustainable development”, in line with SDG 4.7. It is the first country initiative for ESD, together with Spain, adopted by the UN in the Europe and North America region. Much has been achieved to date but more needs to be done.

Building teacher competence and confidence to make the relevant linkages across subject areas and to use these opportunities to deliver ESD teaching and learning, is a priority for us. The Department is working with key stakeholders including to further support and expand ESD-related CPD provision. We are aligning ESD to other policies. For example, on foot of a recommendation of the Citizens' Assembly on Biodiversity Loss, we are working with Biodiversity Ireland to develop basic biodiversity training for non-teaching school staff.

The Department developed a sustainability toolkit for schools, which includes a self-assessment ESD audit, comprehensive guidelines with links to programmes and resources and a template sustainability policy statement for schools. Using the audit, schools can identify what they are doing well and where they need to improve. This supports schools in developing their school sustainability policy statement, adhering to the school sector climate action mandate.

The Department provided ESD funding to schools and organisations in 2022 and 2023 amounting to almost €1 million. This supported school ESD projects, including school gardens and outdoor learning spaces, biodigesters, water harvesting, recycling resources, etc. The funding to organisations supported the development of ESD resources, provision of CPD and the holding of ESD related events. Moreover, further ESD funding will be provided in the coming year.

We aim to empower our young people to put their ESD learning in the classroom into action, particularly in their local community. The inclusion of the Irish Second-Level Students Union and youth representatives on the board of the NCCA and on key steering and stakeholder groups, both nationally and internationally, will continue to play a central part in delivering ESD to 2030. Young people feature prominently at our annual ESD stakeholder forum.

The first youth assembly on climate recommended in 2019 that we have a separate leaving cert subject on climate action and sustainable development. This also featured in the public consultation on senior cycle reform. The curriculum is now being developed for introduction in network schools from September 2025. In addition, social and environmental education will be introduced from September 2025 in the new primary curriculum. These new curricula will enhance existing cross-curricular content and will give students an opportunity to deepen their study of sustainable development and climate change.

Under the climate action plan, the school sector must reduce its greenhouse gas emissions by 51% by 2030 and achieve net zero by 2050. The Department’s approach is guided by a school sector climate action roadmap published last year to achieve these challenging targets. Core strategies include; implementation of the schools decarbonisation pathfinder programmes, decarbonisation of new school buildings, roll-out of the schools PV programme, future roll-out of a climate action-focused summer works scheme and transitioning heating in schools from oil, with the integration of renewable heating where possible.

School transport has been another strand of the Department's contribution to climate change, including supporting the safe routes to school programme. We are happy to take any questions the committee may have.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I thank Ms O'Connor for her opening statement. I have not properly examined the sustainability toolkit for schools. In a busy political life, I need to find a couple of hours to sit down and give it my undivided attention. It is a positive initiative. I acknowledge that the representatives from the Irish Second-Level Students' Union who appeared before the committee were quite positive about the engagement the ISSU had with the Department on the development of climate action and sustainable development as a leaving certificate subject.

I will first outline a broad concern I have, one that goes back to my time in the classroom when I was teaching things related to the green flag programme. It is about the agency of the children who are being taught. You can talk to them about the sustainability of the food they should eat, but they are not packing their own lunchboxes. You can talk to them about sustainability in transport, but they do not make the decisions on how they get to school in the morning. I am talking about primary school here, whereas more agency could be attached to students in secondary school. Emissions from electricity generation could be discussed in the classroom but the students are not the ones making decisions about installing solar panels or X, Y and Z.

How are we going to marry the fact that children will be engaging with this subject in a cross-curricular way but will have very little agency? Much like people in the developing world, children aged under eight are not part of the emissions problem. They are not the ones who have created the issue. That is probably me. A nagging concern I had when I was delivering these programmes was that I was placing a lot of responsibility and guilt on children who did not have the agency to do anything about it and were not the cause of the problem. That is a very broad concern. While we definitely have to this, how do we do it right without misplacing the emphasis?

Ms O'Dea will have a pivotal role if continuing professional development falls on her. While we can get into the teacher training colleges, acknowledging that people can spend 40 years in a classroom, we cannot wait for 40 years to reach the point that this has washed through all teachers. How we engage in the CPD on this and provide the likes of the sustainability toolkit is important but helping people integrate that into their everyday classroom teaching will be a challenge. The Department might speak to how it plans to do that.

I just attended a round-table briefing in the Royal College of Physicians down the street from here. It looked at the dual nexus of climate and education. It was not just about climate education here in Ireland but about how education and climate impact on the developing world in particular. The political declaration made at the Conference of the Parties, COP, last year was mentioned. The Department may not be in a position to respond to my next question today. Why did we not sign up to that political declaration last year and is it planned to address that issue?

The third broad concern I will raise is the idea of having a specific leaving certificate subject that is optional. I do not wish to be pejorative - my wife is a professional performing musician - but it is often the "musos", as they are known, who choose to do music as a leaving certificate subject. They study music and no one need worry about them. I was in the engineering class and we were the people who worked with the lathes.

"It was a case of "Off you go lads, you do the lathes; we are doing music, art, tech graphics or whatever". How do we stop that becoming another siloed area where the musos go over there, the engineers go off to work the lathes and these poor kids, who are probably racked with climate anxiety, go into this classroom over there to sit a leaving certificate subject? How will that communicate and interact?

I am sorry. These are not specific questions but rather, I am just outlining general concerns. To recap, how do we marry the idea of agency and guilt and not overburden our children with it? How will the CPD be done? That is a big challenge. Third, how do we stop the leaving certificate subject becoming a siloed effect, where it is a thing that "those kids there" do?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

I will respond. I thank the Deputy for raising those points. Those are good concerns and points to raise. First, as the Deputy knows, we have a new, redeveloped curriculum coming in from September 2025. We currently already have education for sustainable development in the curriculum. Its themes and principles are embedded across a number of subjects, particularly geography and science, but with the new specification that we will be bringing in, social and environmental education, it will come more to the fore.

Regarding agency, we are very conscious that they need to give children more agency. In the primary curriculum, as redeveloped, and under the primary curriculum framework, which was published last year, we set to do that and it is one of our aims. Our professional services have already been working with teachers to help them learn how to give children more agency. The Deputy is right that the CPD is very important, as is the ITE, which he mentioned. Regarding the initial teacher education, ITE, education for sustainable development is now part of the mandate in all programmes in ITE. That will give teachers a good grounding before they leave the ITE.

On the new curriculum coming in, we in the Department are working closely with Oide, our professional support services, to develop a comprehensive programme of support not just for this new specification but for all the new specifications coming in. This will involve seminars, webinars, in-school support, online support and development of resources. That will be over a number of years to help imbed and to help them understand the principles outlined in the primary curriculum framework, including giving more agency to the children.

Regarding the leaving certificate subject, I will hand over to my colleague, Esther Doyle.

Ms Esther Doyle:

Regarding our new subject, I wish to address the Deputy’s question on it being siloed. I will give a few examples already in leaving certificate subjects. For example, in politics and society, which is a relatively recently introduced subject, and physical education, there are aspects that are already related to what the Deputy mentioned in respect of looking at sustainability and how we contribute to supporting the environment we live in. This will not be the only subject where the young people of today will be expected to consider these types of important issues. In other subjects, such as home economics, biology and geography, there are very relevant, interdisciplinary, connected issues similar to what we mentioned in the new subject specifications. I hope the students the Deputy mentioned who are expressly interested in the world we will live in the future will not only be drawn to the new subject but will have complementary subjects at leaving certificate level. As we redevelop all of the subjects over the next few years at leaving certificate and senior cycle, there will be opportunities for ESD to be embedded across them all. I take the Deputy’s concern. I would not like them to be the only students in our schools who are seen as the champions or advocates for a better world or climate action. When we visit schools as inspectors, we see the level of interest of young people from first year in post-primary, which is my area, in the world of the future and the world they live in now, and it is endearing.

It also gives me confidence that in the future they will be activists, they will share the responsibility and they will educate. Our beginning position here is that in order to become an activist or to become somebody who can change the world or keep the world better, a person needs to be educated. This new subject will help to support an education in climate action and sustainable development and will help us to empower those young people both through the types of learning they will engage in - the specification - and the type of assessment that is going to be permeating through the two years of this new subject. The assessment will be linked to action. It is not just about rote learning, not that any subject is at leaving certificate, because there will be activity, action and learning tasks that will support the creation of their learning over the two years of senior cycle. I am happy to take more detailed questions, if members would like, on the content or the learning specification. I will leave it at that for now.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the guests for coming before the committee. I might take Ms Doyle up on that proposal about more questions on the leaving certificate subject. I welcome the fact that we are introducing climate action and sustainable development as a senior cycle course. As Ms Doyle said, however, the primary purpose of any course is to educate and to inform students about an area. I suppose that has an expertise to it and is an arcane discipline in some way. Will Ms Doyle tell me something about the course? What will be involved in it? What will students be taught over the two-year period? Obviously, it cannot just be about activism; it has to be about education as well.

Ms Esther Doyle:

Sure, I am delighted to share that. It is a wonderful opportunity to be here today to speak. The Deputy may be aware that we are very close to the completion stages of the development of the new subject specification, which is going to the NCCA board and council next week. That is the stage it is at. It is still at draft stage but I can discuss a little bit about what is in the draft at this stage, until it becomes approved. There are going to be four strands which we understand to be sections of the course. The first is called "earth systems, life and the environment", and looks at issues like biodiversity, ecosystems, climate and climate action. The second strand is called "people, power and place", and looks at a variety of issues including climate injustice, what is a just world, technological solutions and the intersectional nature of climate injustice and policies. The third strand is called "global connections", and looks at the type of policies that are made locally and internationally, and how they may have an impact across the world. This strand seeks to show young people the connection between our own local environment and the policies that are made in Ireland, in Europe and across the world, and the impact those policies can have on people's environment and on the future of our climate and our environment. The fourth strand under the draft specifications involves an applied learning task which is subdivided into four parts. In the first part, students will engage in dialogue about climate action. The second part of the task involves researching actions. They then design a nature-based experience where they look at moving out into the open world. In the fourth part of the task, they will organise some form of action to support climate sustainability or climate action. There will be a variety of opportunities for students to go with this in the sense of where their interests are.

This will be one of the new senior cycle subjects, and all new senior cycle subjects are expected to have a 40% assessment component which will be different from a terminal written exam at the end of the two years of senior cycle. At the moment, it is planned that the assessment will be an action project. We will be waiting for the final brief from the State Examinations Commission to come to schools to describe exactly what is involved in that. This is where students will be able to demonstrate their learning through action as well.

That is a very broad overview. For those in this room or in the public who are interested, the draft specifications as they are now are on the NCCA website. When eventually we publish the final specifications, they will be up there too. Anybody interested in what the students are going to learn can see it there.

I can tell the Deputy about the number of schools we have selected as well, if he is interested in that sort of detail.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, go on.

Ms Esther Doyle:

Okay. We ran a very interesting call earlier this year. Schools could put in their applications by 19 April. We were delighted to see the level of interest from schools in the two new subjects - drama, film and theatre studies; and climate action and sustainable development - because when we went into it we were not sure whether people would see it as different enough from geography, to be honest. We know it is different enough, but we wondered what schools would think.

The level of interest was phenomenal. It was great. We have selected and signed 43 schools to phase 1. I can clarify today that we have 43 schools on board. We are calling next year, from 2024 to 2025, year zero. It will be the year of teacher professional learning and continuing professional development for the schools involved. We have asked each school to nominate two teachers. We were delighted and so impressed with the qualifications of the teachers who put themselves forward to teach this new subject and I can provide great reassurance to the committee in this regard. Their backgrounds range from everything from environmental analytical science, biochemistry, geography - it is natural geography teachers have an interest as it is an allied discipline - business, economics, agricultural science and the natural sciences. Many of the teachers who have put their names forward for this new subject have gone on and completed extensive further training, whether that is all the way up to PhD, masters, or diploma level. We have seen a great qualification profile from the teachers who are coming forward on this.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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It sounds like a very challenging and interesting curriculum.

Ms Esther Doyle:

Yes.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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These are teachers who are already in schools teaching but, because of their expertise or qualifications, have an interest and an ability to teach this into the future.

Ms Esther Doyle:

Yes, exactly. We asked them to look at the draft specifications as they were published at that stage, to look at where they thought the skills set in the schools was and then allow teachers to put their names forward to the principal to be put on the nomination from the school. They had to describe in what way they felt their previous training as a teacher, whether through their initial degree or through further training, would support the teaching of this specification. Teachers did that; they explained to us in their application forms how their training related to the new subject.

We hope to see the two teachers who put themselves forward attend teacher professional learning. My colleague may speak more on this. Oide, which is the teachers and leaders support service, is putting in place a four-year plan of training for these teachers which will begin before these specifications go into the schools in 2025. We begin this year and the schools will be contacted shortly about the training programme.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. It seems to me this is a course which has obviously been designed. That is a difficult thing to do. Was it similar to the way the politics and society subject was designed? Were there any learnings from that or was this something that had to be started from scratch?

Ms Esther Doyle:

I may let my colleague from the NCAA, Ms Aoife Rush, talk about curriculum design, if she wishes. Every time we develop a curriculum, we learn something. We learned a lot from the reform we did to the junior cycle. We also have reports from the University of Limerick, the third of which has just recently been published. We learned a lot from the experience of introducing a new curriculum and a new junior cycle framework. We have learned from that and we have learned from every single senior cycle subject which has been developed in recent years, whether that is computer science, politics and society or any of the ones which have come in.

Although we have learned, there are some specific guidelines for this senior cycle in terms of the design of the curriculum. We are following the guidelines which have been put in place for this new senior cycle. Even more recently introduced subjects will be reviewed under the new guidelines for curriculum specification design.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Doyle. Does Ms Aoife Rush wish to take up the initiation to speak?

Ms Aoife Rush:

Yes. I can give the committee a sense of the curriculum development process. In the context of any new subject, particularly when starting from scratch, we develop a background paper and brief. A background paper and brief more or less sets out the context for the subject. In the case of the climate action and sustainable development subject, it looked at where education for sustainable development is currently in the curriculum. It looked at continuity from primary education into post-primary education and onto third level. It also looked at what is happening in other jurisdictions. It gave an in-depth analysis in terms of four or five jurisdictions and set out a number of considerations. With that background paper, we also consulted with young people to see what their issues are. The background paper is informed by what we hear on the ground and in that context, we visited four schools and spoke directly to teachers and young people. The background paper goes out for further consultation which gives an opportunity for stakeholders, the public, teachers and students to give further feedback on it. In that way, before we even begin the curriculum development process, we have a sense of what the real key considerations are going into that. That is the basis by which we have a development group meeting. Developments groups are made up of representatives across a number of stakeholders. We feel it creates quite a robust process with a lot of deliberation and discussion. Over the course of a number of meetings, we develop the draft specification.

To go back to the Deputy's question, when we are starting from scratch, the process starts with that background paper and consultation.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in this morning. They are, as always, most welcome. I want to follow up on a point made by Ms Rush on the background paper. She said that the council had visited four schools. What is the profile of those schools? I am not looking for their location or anything that would make them identifiable but for a profile of the schools involved in that development process.

Ms Doyle talked about the actual subject and the tasks involved. It is often said to me by teachers and students that while they would really love to be able to do something, they would need X or Y and they do not have it. In terms of this specific subject, what is the Department hearing on this? Are any additional resources needed?

Ms Esther Doyle:

That is one of the questions we have asked schools. As part of the subject development group meetings, we looked at what schools might need to bring this subject into their school. We have asked schools what they think they would need and they have suggested a few things to us. In the context of both of the new subjects we are introducing this year, part of that is supporting schools with resources. One of our intentions at this stage is to include a teacher allocation to facilitate supporting the introduction of the subject into the school, as well as whatever technical resources they need and a grant to support field trips or other trips. We are looking at those at the moment and over the next 12 months we will firm up those exact needs and schools will be supported.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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Can Ms Doyle give us an idea of the top three requests from schools? What have they identified as needs that must be met?

Ms Esther Doyle:

One of the things they identified is potentially some IT support equipment because they may want to use online tools to do some of the actions that are in the specification. They also identified accessibility in the context of going on field trips to specific environments or elsewhere. They have identified the need for support for things like that. They are the top two things at the moment but we did not get too many requests because most schools feel that the equipment they have is enough to enable them to bring in this new subject without the need for any major resourcing.

Ms Aoife Rush:

To respond to the Deputy's initial question, when the NCCA is working on the senior cycle, we issue a request for expressions of interest from schools to engage. The first step is that we work with schools that express an interest in a particular subject area. Then what we do is take a random, stratified sample to work with. We would look at things like whether a school is in the DEIS programme, its location, size, student numbers and gender breakdown and we would choose schools from that random sample. In the first instance, we work with schools that have expressed an interest in being involved in a subject area.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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The four specific schools that Ms Rush mentioned-----

Ms Aoife Rush:

I do not have the names to hand but I can forward them to the Deputy.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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That would be useful information to have.

Reference was made to continuing professional development. I acknowledge that the subject is available now but I am interested in how connectivity is developed between the most junior learners in the education system right up into third level. Connections need to be made by the Department and by the schools. How do we make it relevant for children moving from a lower level of education into a higher level? How do we reinforce this and ensure that the education continues to evolve as the child moves through the education system?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

We start at early years and primary levels. We have developed the themes and principles of sustainable development in the redeveloped Aistear curriculum and they will also be part of the redeveloped primary curriculum. We will have a new specification, social and environmental education, as part of the redeveloped primary curriculum. The Deputy is right that we have to have connectivity at each stage. We are giving children a good foundation from junior level up and continuing it on. At junior cycle level, we have it in a number of cross-curricular subjects as well as a short course in the area and we have the new subject coming in at leaving certificate level. We also work very closely with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science.

I know the committee will be speaking to the Department next. We have a sustainable development strategy for education. We work together to ensure that the kinds of activities we carry out in each of the sectors are done on campuses at third level as well. The interests, skills, knowledge, dispositions and values are developed all the way up at each stage so that children will be more likely to have an interest and to continue on at third level and beyond.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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TUS Athlone is one of my local third level institutions. It had a transition year programme this year, part of which was a module on sustainability in engineering, which was really welcome to see. This is my final question. In terms of primary school, will Ms O'Connor talk about the hours per week that will be spent under the redesign model?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

We published the primary curriculum framework last year. This sets out the number of hours or the suggested timelines for each of the subject areas. I am sorry I did not bring a copy with me to be able to be exact in what I say. At the end of the document, the number of hours per week and per month are set out. I can come back to the Deputy with the information after this session.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms O'Connor.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

It would not just be the subject area. It would be cross-curricular in a number of other subjects, so it would be part of the science, technology and engineering curriculum as well.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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The reason I ask is that primary schools only have a set number of hours per week. It is in that context that I ask the question.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

Yes. The Deputy is right. That is why integration is so important. It is because the teachers have the opportunity to integrate it into other subjects. They can use sustainable materials and take the children on outdoor learning experiences on nature trails. This gives them the opportunity to use their senses and record and analyse everything they see and present it to their peers when they come back to the classroom. There are loads of opportunities throughout the day and the week, not just for the specific subject area.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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This is an area where teachers have been particularly to the fore over the last ten or 15 years. The nature table is almost a thing of the past. Pupils now go out into nature and see it for themselves. I am very fortunate to live in an area where we have good biodiversity. There are many bogs around the area. These are wonderful places. It is good to see the younger children in particular going out to learn about these places. We need more boardwalks for people to be able to access bogland but that is a conversation for a different Department. This is a change of focus. Rather than just picking up acorns and bringing them in, children are out there seeing what biodiversity means. Their understanding of it is unique to them in certain ways and depends on the environment in which they have grown up. I thank Ms O'Connor.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

I totally agree with the Deputy.

Carol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for the briefing. I apologise for being delayed. It was unavoidable this morning because with counting resuming at some centres, I had to be there. Was there any consultation with farming organisations in relation to this programme? I expressed serious concern about the fact that the draft text did not include the words "farming" or "farmer". I am concerned because I come from a rural county where the economy is heavily reliant on the agriculture sector. Indeed, nationally we are still reliant on the agriculture sector. That is a fact. I am very concerned that there could be a negative portrayal of agriculture. The reason I say this is that there are references to agriculture in the context of biodiversity and also agricultural intensification. This leads me to believe that it is directly aimed at dairy farming. I really am concerned because we need common sense to prevail. We cannot have a situation where the climate action programme laid out in front of students, many of whom come from an agricultural background, is going to cause climate alarmism or indoctrination, as many would see it. My burning question is this. Was there consultation with the representatives of the farming organisations? If not, I hope that urgent provision will be made to engage with the farming organisations.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

My colleagues Ms Doyle and Ms Rush will respond on that.

Ms Esther Doyle:

I thank the Deputy for her question. Following the initial publication of the draft specifications, there was another round of consultation where people were allowed to submit their views to the NCCA on the initial specification, and they did so. Following on from that, the subject development group reconvened and looked at the consultation submissions and what came in from the public.

Ms Roche and I may not have the list of who made submissions on the draft specification, but we can get it. Anybody was welcome to make a submission, including anybody from the agricultural sector. I can tell the Deputy that some amendments were made to the draft specifications to highlight the word "agriculture". I am looking at the draft as it stands at the moment and I can tell her that in one part the agricultural sector has been mentioned. I will provide some examples in order to give her some comfort and reassurance that we are including the sector.

We are including the sector to make young people aware of the situation. There is reference to a just transition for particular sectors in our economy, which includes the transport, agriculture and residential sectors as some examples. The agricultural sector is highlighted as a particular sector. There is further reference to how the sector impacts on the environment and the challenges for the sector. Agricultural policy and cost demands on the farming sector, increased agricultural production, regenerative agricultural movement and variations of that are mentioned. It is considered from a just transition point of view. That will allow young people to learn about the challenges while being mindful. This does not go against the agricultural sector, which is what I think the Deputy is concerned about. The curriculum does not do so in that sense.

Carol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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I am very concerned. I am even more concerned about what Ms Doyle mentioned, namely the agricultural sector and how it impacts on the environment. Farmers and farming families have worked consistently to make the relevant changes. They have bent over backwards and are not being rewarded for doing so. There is no substitution for direct engagement with stakeholders. There should have been more respect for the farming community. It was invited to make submissions, but that is not a substitute for direct engagement.

Large farming organisations represent tens of thousands of farmers across the State. There are 117,000 jobs in our agricultural sector. They are facts. Time and time again, the farming community has stated that it is willing to play its part. However, it is unfair to constantly put the spotlight on the impact agriculture has on climate action when farmers and farming organisations have said quite clearly that they will play their part. I am not convinced by what has been said. Respect should have been shown and there should have been direct engagement with all of the stakeholders, rather than a fluffy process of making submissions. I do not think that cuts it.

I do not think many schools will accept this. There are schools in rural areas in this country where everything relies on farming, including the local economy in my county, Offaly, which has a rural economy. Teachers and leaders in schools will be pragmatic. All we are looking for is a balanced and fair approach. The agricultural science programme sufficiently covers the environmental aspect. Why overload the curriculum? Why put schools under the pressure of taking on another subject? I do not see the logic or rationale for this. My son studies agricultural science for the leaving certificate and I have seen the textbooks, which already adequately cover the environment. Why put more into the curriculum? Is that not indoctrination? In my view, it is. I would be very cross as a parent if it was and if I was still a teacher, I would still reject it outright.

Ms Esther Doyle:

I take the Deputy's concerns. The leaving certificate subjects that are being redeveloped are to be complementary. It is not meant to be indoctrination. We could not have a subject about climate action and sustainable development without considering all of our sectors of business, including agriculture, and the contribution they make in a positive way to our economy. We would be challenged and criticised if we did not include agriculture. In this new subject, we are trying to create thinking young people who can think critically and evaluate the information presented to them in a critical way.

We also want them to weigh it up and make sound political and policy decisions for the future, hopefully, if they want to campaign for whatever side they choose. We are looking at people trying to see the bigger picture, and we are not against the agricultural sector. I want to say very clearly here today that there is no part of this new subject that is anti the agricultural sector. I do not see that at all through the specification, and I hope that would not be the perception anyone would leave this room with today. It is not the intention of this new specification.

I might ask Ms Rush to talk a little about the consultation process. There has been no different process for this project from other ones, and we have streamlined those. I will let Ms Rush describe it to members a bit more.

Ms Aoife Rush:

Our consultation process for this involved a number of school visits. In this context, it was eight school visits. We invited submissions and we had a stakeholder event and an online survey as well. We do endeavour to engage with the public.

I would like to add, again, that there is no intention in this subject or any subject whatsoever to put a spotlight on agriculture in any negative way. We absolutely appreciate that agriculture is such an important part of our economy but also culturally, socially and environmentally in a range of different aspects.

The one thing we would say about the new curriculum in particular, which is the climate action and sustainable development at senior cycle, is that we endeavour that students look at it from the perspective of their local community. In that context, we feel this specification would enable students to engage in their local community, be it the agricultural community, urban, rural or whatever. I second my colleague that in no way is there any intention that agriculture should in any way be seen in a negative light.

With regard to other subjects that would also have a focus on agriculture, we are working on redeveloping all subjects across senior cycle, including agricultural science, which will be redeveloped, and hopefully the updated agricultural science specification will be introduced in 2027. We need to be aware of the context here in that climate action and sustainable development, as a subject, is one subject across a suite of subjects where we are endeavouring to address the issues of education for sustainable development across the broader subjects as well.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Rush. I have a number of questions. On the issue of agri-education that Deputy Nolan has spoken about, agriculture has come in for a lot of criticism over the past while. Some of the secondary schools and two vocational colleges in my constituency offer the opportunity for students to study the green cert, which I very much welcome. An awful lot of young students do not want to go to agricultural college; they want to be able to study it locally.

On the new subject of climate action and sustainable development, will that feed into people being able to study agriculture in secondary schools? Will it be part and parcel of them being able to further educate themselves for the green cert?

Ms Esther Doyle:

I am not sure, to be honest, in the sense that I am not 100% familiar with the green cert and the curriculum. I imagine there would be some overlapping and interdisciplinary connections from this subject, and obviously agricultural science in schools as well. I am sure there must be but I am not 100% and cannot say it.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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With specific reference to primary schools, and the huge number of local primary schools based in parishes and villages, we have seen a huge number of local environmental groups that are all around sustainable energy goals in their own local communities. Can the witnesses see primary schools playing a part with their own local community leaders in that, and, if so, how do they see that happening? It is really important that we teach them from a very young age in primary schools and get them involved in their own communities with the local groups in some way. I know there is child protection and everything like that involved there but we want them to be leaders in their own way in the years to come.

We want young people to bring something for the future into their local communities. How can we make that work better than it is at the moment?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

Under our education for sustainable development strategy, we work with a number of environmental NGOs and carry out and support a number of activities, for example, the Heritage Council heritage in schools scheme, the Green-Schools programme and WorldWise schools. We agree with the Chair and we encourage children from a young age to get involved with environmental groups and in the community. The Chair mentioned the Tidy Towns initiative in the previous session.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That was the one I was about to mention.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

It is an excellent initiative and it is much more than keeping the place clean. It is an environmental initiative as well and has the advantage of bringing everybody together. One of my sisters and her husband and children go out setting the plants, cleaning the place up, digging and meeting community members. That gives them a good basis and gives the children the interest for going forward. The more we can do that, the better. I will bring in my colleague Ms De Khors because we have a newsletter on sustainable development we share with schools and organisations and there are many examples in that of what kind of things schoolchildren can do.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Before Ms De Khors comes in, I can only speak of my local authority and am not sure if it is the same with others across the country. We have the environmental awards once per year and primary schools are part of that with art competitions and everything like that. I am big into litter-picking and so on. Not all, but many, young people still do not get the importance of using bins. Looking at the recycling of bottles is interesting. Last weekend at the count centre in Wexford, children were taking bottles out of the bin to bring them home and get money for them. It is a fantastic incentive and it all feeds into what the children are thinking. I am concerned primary schools would be involved in Tidy Towns and about getting them actively involved. In 20 years, they could be the leaders of their local Tidy Towns groups.

Ms Leona De Khors:

One of the five priority areas in the ESD to 2030 strategy is accelerating local level actions, so it is promoting schools' involvement in activities in their local area. As Ms O'Connor said, we issue a quarterly ESD newsletter to all schools. We have more than 1,000 subscribers. That highlights activities taking place in schools. Schools write in and tell us what they are doing and for doing that they get a voucher towards ESD and projects in the school.

One of the criteria for granting ESD funding is an element of local activities by the school. We have a call at the moment for organisations that support schools, like Green-Schools, ECO-UNESCO and other organisations providing resources and CPD to teachers. That call closes this week. In September, we will issue a call for funding for initiatives and projects on ESD in schools.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

That all builds on what they are learning in school. We are supporting them to take what they learn in the classroom into the community and work with others. As the Cathaoirleach said, start them young and they are our leaders of the future.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The report on STEM by this committee recommended STEM subjects should be commenced as early as preschool, getting children talking about STEM and its importance. There are huge challenges in secondary school getting teachers for physics and subjects like that. What are the witnesses' thoughts on that recommendation?

Some primary schools are really good, and witnesses who have previously appeared before the committee said they do science experiments and so on. They even say this should be taught at preschool and have pointed out the importance of STEM, getting students’ minds active, talking about it and getting them interested in it. What are Ms O'Connor's thoughts on that?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

I agree; we do need to get pupils involved from early years onwards. There is only a certain level that can be reached at early school learning and care level but, as the Chairman will know, we have our STEM policy statement and we also have an implementation plan. The implementation plan that runs from 2023 to 2026 was developed between our Department and the Departments of education and children, so we are very much of the same mind as the Chairman in that we have to encourage children from when they are babies upwards, pretty much, to have an interest in STEM subjects. We are working on various actions on our STEM implementation plan, including, for example, by developing information leaflets for parents and guardians to help them have knowledge of the STEM subjects and help create an interest. I have responsibility for guidance as well, and we are looking at it in terms of how guidance counsellors can better support children from primary school. We are going to look at guidance and support we can give them from primary school and post-primary and the lifelong element of that.

Carol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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I welcome the good work that is being done with STEM and I do not want to be negative. Having said that, I have strong views on the way the climate action programme is being implemented and the influences that are on it. It was mentioned NGOs were involved in this programme. I would appreciate it if a list of the NGOs involved could be emailed to me, or if the witnesses could tell me offhand which the main ones are. Furthermore, does Ms O’Connor not feel it is unfair to involve environmental NGOs without directly involving the farming organisations? I think it is grossly unfair, and I do not think NGOs should have an influence on our education system either.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

It is not just environmental NGOs that are involved in our education for sustainable development, although they certainly take a big interest. Our actions span a number of Departments, including the Department of Rural and Community Development. I could list some of the organisations, or Ms De Khors might know them better. We do have some environmental ones, such as-----

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Ms O'Connor might send a list to the clerk and we will send it to the members.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

Okay, we will do that. That is in our education for sustainable development network. We have advisory groups for the Department of children in respect of that sector and for the Department of further and higher education in respect of the further and higher education sector as well, so there is a mix at each of the levels.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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I want to go back to the STEM implementation plan. When is the next review of that due?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

Our overall STEM policy statement is out to the end of 2026-----

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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I refer just to the implementation plan. When is the next review due?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

We just published the most recent implementation plan last year. We carry out annual progress reports and we will review the plan not as a deep-dive review but on an annual basis. We carried out a review of where we were and we set out what progress we had made, and that is published and is available on the Department’s website.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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When will the next one be published?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

The next big one will be in 2026.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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That is the next progress report, but what about the annual review of the plan?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

The statement was over ten years and then we had the first implementation plan. We reviewed that and we have now developed a second implementation plan, which we are currently working on.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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But Ms O'Connor said there was an annual -----

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

We do an annual progress report on how we are doing.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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When is the next one due?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

That would be due before the end of the year.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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Later this year.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

Yes.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank the officials for coming here today. It has been very informative and beneficial. We will suspend for a few minutes to allow the next group of officials to take their seats.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Ms Fiona O'Byrne, principal officer, higher education policy and reform; Ms Aideen Foley, principal officer, climate action and capital planning; Ms Caoimhe Hope, principal officer, student accommodation; Mr. David Keating, principal officer, research policy programmes; and Ms Sarah Miley, principal officer, construction and green skills, Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. The officials will brief the committee on the climate action and sustainable development education in tertiary education. I will invite Ms O'Byrne to make a brief opening statement, which will be followed by questions from members. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statement on its website following today's meeting.

I remind them of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by the Chair to discontinue your remarks and it is imperative that you comply with any such direction by the Chair.

Ms O'Byrne may begin her opening statement and she has five minutes.

Ms Fiona O'Byrne:

I thank the committee for the invitation here today. I am principal officer with responsibility for higher education policy and reform.

The Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science’s contribution to climate action and sustainability agendas is structured across four pillars: enabling research; skills for the green transition; education for sustainable development, and decarbonisation of the tertiary estate. I will briefly outline the Department’s work across these pillars.

Regarding research, 52% of all publicly-funded research comes from this Department’s budget. The Department’s research and innovation strategy, Impact 2030, recognises the role of research and innovation as critical enablers to support delivery of our climate action targets and to address wider environmental and sustainability challenges. Important progress is being made in this regard. In May, the Minsters, Deputies O’Donovan and McConalogue, announced a €104 million investment in scientific research across four SFI research centres. Two of these, BiOrbic and VistaMilk, are looking at ways to positively impact the environment through research, excellence and innovation. The recent launches of the first two SFI-funded co-centres strategic collaborative research partnerships across Ireland, Britain and Northern Ireland, demonstrate the commitment to tackle these issues and put them to the forefront of the national research agenda. These co-centres will focus on climate, biodiversity and water and on sustainable and resilient food systems, respectively. SFI has also launched a pilot sustainable laboratory certificate programme, which it is hoped will see a national roll-out after the initial pilot.

A workforce equipped with appropriate green skills is a prerequisite for the delivery of key aspects of the green transition, which are to retrofit homes, build renewable energy infrastructure and to develop and maintain new sustainable modes of transport. New jobs are emerging such as retrofit installers, wind energy technicians and electric vehicle mechanics, and green skills are also being embedded in a range of existing roles across the economy. This Department is working to ensure Ireland’s tertiary sector can address these challenges. The further education and training sector is pivoting to develop a workforce with the right skills for the green transition, through initiatives like NZEB retrofit centres of excellence, the new wind turbine maintenance technician apprenticeship and new sustainability micro-qualifications. More broadly, this Department is leading a strategic response to monitoring and responding to key green skills requirements in areas including offshore wind, the built environment, and sustainable transport.

Education for sustainable development, ESD, aims to equip all members of our society with the skills, knowledge and values needed to address pressing social and environmental challenges and to promote sustainable development. We know that if we want to achieve this learning ambition, we need to embed ESD across all levels of formal, non-formal and informal education. That is why, back in 2022, this Department came together with the Departments of Education and Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, to launch ESD to 2030, Ireland’s second national strategy on ESD. The strategy’s implementation plan contains several actions that are directed at the tertiary sector, which encompasses almost 400,000 learners at any one time. These actions focus on creating inclusive and sustainable learning environments and embedding ESD into our courses and curriculums at all levels. Some examples of this include the creation of ESD-specific positions across higher education institutions to support leadership in this area; outdoor learning initiatives; and the adoption of circular economy practices. The strategy’s first progress report, which was published in December 2023 and launched at the annual ESD stakeholder forum, contains updates on actions spanning from January 2022 to June 2023.

With the third-largest estate under the public sector climate action mandate, the tertiary education sector produced 18% of public sector emissions in 2022. Decarbonising our sectoral estate will play a vital role in helping Ireland to meet the legally enforceable energy and emissions targets. The Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science leads its sectoral bodies to meet these targets, which are set against the unique challenges faced by the tertiary sector over the coming years. These challenges include increasing enrolments driven by demographic increases, coupled with the requirement to provide essential skills for the achievement of economy-wide climate targets. The tertiary education sector’s current gap to target is to remove approximately 32,000 tonnes of CO2 equivalent from our annual emissions profile by 2030. To remove emissions, the roll-out of a large-scale retrofitting programme will be required. This is being considered in the context of the age and condition of our buildings, feasibility issues given construction market capacity constraints, and budgetary constraints. The Department jointly chairs a working group with SEAI to develop a decarbonisation plan for the sector. We are engaging stakeholders to mobilise sectoral support for implementation of policy to enhance data collection and to support the decarbonisation planning process, and we are factoring climate considerations into the assessment processes for all new capital programme calls.

The Department is also encouraging collaboration between our sectoral partners and the regional transport managers to reduce transport demand for less sustainable journeys by third level students. We look forward to discussing these matters in greater detail with the committee today.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Nolan.

Carol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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I actually do not have a question. I was just listening to the presentation.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That is no bother. I have a couple of questions. Interestingly, the representatives are very well aware of the value of the bike to work scheme. Representatives of the Union of Students in Ireland were before the committee at our meeting on 28 May and spoke about the potential value of a bike to college scheme, similar to a bike to work scheme. That makes sense. I wonder if the Department has given any consideration to a similar scheme for college-going students. The Department of Education deals with primary and post-primary education. In college, there are many students who are living in Dublin and who are from the country. They benefit hugely from public transport, etc. Has there ever been any consideration or any negotiations with the Department of Finance regarding a similar scheme to the bike to work scheme?

Ms Caoimhe Hope:

I will take that question. I am from the student accommodation unit. This is something we are looking at as part of the long-term policy on student accommodation strategy, which we are currently developing. We have been in intensive engagement with the Department of Transport on a number of fronts regarding sustainable transport measures and transport links to assist students with getting to and from college. Also, we have tabled the issue of the ability to provide some sort of cycle to college scheme. That is something we are actively looking at currently.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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How does the issue we are discussing today fit into Ms Hope’s role in student accommodation, etc.?

Ms Caoimhe Hope:

It fits into it in multiple different facets. As part of the overall policy, our objective is to activate the supply of new student accommodation. Through that, we will be looking at modern methods of construction, and also we are just about to commence a study on standardised design for student accommodation. Currently, there are no design standards for student accommodation. We are conducting that study to drive sustainable developments as well as a more integrated approach to campus life. It has a completion date of quarter four of this year. We are just about to appoint a contractor to do that work with us and the HEA.

In tandem with that, to supplement the policy to activate supply, we recognise that 44% of our higher education students commute to college from home and will continue to do so for various reasons. In order for them to do that, we also have to look at sustainable transport links. How do they actually get to college? For those students who live nearer to college, how do they safely get in and out of college? The students have previously raised the issues of safe passage routes and safe transport to and from college with us.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Ms Hope spoke of standardised designs. Is she modelling that on any other European country or a country outside Europe where there are more advanced standardised designs than we have? When she speaks of standardised designs, is she working with other Departments on the island of Ireland regarding their designs and how they manage new buildings, climate actions and all the different systems that have been introduced over the last number of years?

Ms Caoimhe Hope:

The standardised design study came out of a recommendation by the residential cost construction study, which was undertaken by the Department of housing. It is one of the four key recommendations of that report, which is being led by our Department in conjunction with the Department of housing. We have a joint steering group which will lead that project. It will be undertaken by us and HEA and there will be expert consultants on that. The first phase of that work is to look at a best practice model from across Europe and across international best practice. This will look at what works out there so that we can understand the flexibility that students require for campus life, as well as what works best in terms of design standards and modern methods of construction. There is also that student well-being factor, which also needs to be taken into account. We are working very closely with colleagues across Government on this, and we are also looking at international best practice.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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At a recent meeting of the committee, witnesses expressed a need to have a specific climate module included on the syllabus for undergraduate students. Has the Department engaged with senior management in higher education institutions on such a provision?

Ms Fiona O'Byrne:

The higher education institutions are academically independent. While we, as a Department, are not in a position to mandate what goes into the curriculum, we have convened a tertiary sector steering group to share best practice. A number of institutions are exploring their options, including the possibility of a stand-alone sustainability module, or alternatively whether sustainability should be embedded through all existing modules. Different higher education institutions are exploring different opportunities. The Department has convened a steering group to enable that sharing of best practice.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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There are different methods and models. Apprenticeships have totally changed over recent years. We have gone from diesel cars to petrol cars to electric cars. When this committee visited Waterford, we learned that one of the biggest challenges is the need to train diesel and petrol mechanics while at the same training mechanics for the new electric cars. Everything has totally changed over recent years,, including building concepts, plumbing, carpentry and electrical work, and is forever changing. As things modernise, there will be further changes. Has the Department engaged with SOLAS on the provision of climate action education and sustainable development in further education, and the rapid change that is happening at the moment?

Ms Sarah Miley:

I work in the construction and green skills unit. The Department is in almost daily contact with SOLAS on this matter. We are looking at the totality of what we are talking about, exactly as the Chairman has outlined.

We are looking at developing an e-mobility capability centre of excellence using the successful mobile NZED and retrofit training centres, which are located across the country. There is a feasibility study under way to look into what that would best look like and what it should do. In the meantime, we are looking at changing some of the existing apprenticeship curriculums to incorporate green skills.

On mechanics specifically, the motor mechanics programme is changing to automotive technology. That will look at how we can service e-vehicles; not just e-cars, but also trucks and trains. The programme will look at the totality of everything.

On other skills, we are looking at developing new skills as emerging needs become clear to us, in particular in the offshore wind industry. We also have the NZED centres of excellence, which are showing increases year on year in terms of participation. We had a doubling in the number of learners at the end of last year compared with the number through the doors in 2022. This year, we are already on target to surpass the number of learners last year. We are all the time looking at evolving our skills offering and training provision. We work very closely with SOLAS in that regard.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Thank you.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to follow up on the response by Ms Hope to the question on student accommodation posed by the Chairman. My colleague, Deputy Mairéad Farrell, has been very active on this issue over recent months. I wonder how effective the Department will be, given that the vast majority of student accommodation is privately owned. Last February, Trinity, DCU and UCD combined had 5,600 units while the private sector had 7,500 units. The number is very similar in Cork, with just under 3,100 units privately owned and just over 1,500 units owned by the college.

Ms Caoimhe Hope:

We recognise the role of the private sector in student accommodation provision. It has been substantially to date led and driven by the private sector. Two thirds of the current student accommodation specific supply in this country is owned and operated by the private sector while one third is provided by the public sector. Our role here is to recognise that there is a shortage of supply. We are working really closely with the public sector and we have engagement with the private sector in terms of trying to activate that supply. For targets going forward we are looking at how we work to stimulate that supply and support it, through alternative methods as well. We are looking at vacancy, refurbishment and transport links but specifically at the development of additional purpose-built student accommodation supply.

It is crucial to look at the data, get the targets right and drive on with the delivery of the supply which we recognise under Housing for All as a key enabler for students to access higher education.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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What impact can the Department have on the decarbonisation and retrofitting of the accommodation that is privately owned?

Ms Caoimhe Hope:

The impact we can have is in the new supply, but also in working with the private-----

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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What about the existing supply?

Ms Caoimhe Hope:

We recognise that the existing supply was built to the standards of the time. Much of the private supply is quite new in its ability so we can have a look at that as well under our overall decarbonisation plan. However, being able to decarbonise the current stock would be outside the scope of the Department as it currently stands. On design standards going forward, we can ensure that any new supply meets the decarbonisation standards.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that, but considering the vast difference that is there at the moment and the length of time construction takes, there will be a reliance on private supply for the foreseeable future in many areas.

Ms Caoimhe Hope:

Absolutely, and we recognise that.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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Is it the case that there has not been any engagement with the owners? Has there been any engagement with them to see if they have plans to upgrade the accommodation that is there?

Ms Caoimhe Hope:

We have had engagement with many of the owners and at a sectoral level and we will continue to do that as we work through the policy development with respect to their plans for decarbonisation.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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Has any commitment been given by any of these investors?

Ms Caoimhe Hope:

Not to date.

Carol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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I have one question that relates to student accommodation. Has any consideration been given to putting in place student accommodation officers who would collaborate with the individual third level institutions to assist students on where accommodation may be available? We have that kind of model in the local authorities where we have housing assistance officers. They have a database or list of available properties to try to assist people. Could a similar model be put in place or is anything like that in place at the moment to try to assist students because it is a worrying and concerning time for students? They face so much with the transition from second to third level and then the whole ordeal of trying to source accommodation. It would be helpful if there was some direct assistance.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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We are not here to discuss that specific issue. However, if Ms Hope has an answer to it, well and good. It is not her direct responsibility. However, if she is able to assist the Deputy, it would be appreciated.

Ms Caoimhe Hope:

I thank the Chair.

Many of the universities and technological universities do immense work in this space on an individual basis. We recognise it as a key driver of the policy going forward, but also the need to assist students. The task being faced by students in understanding where accommodation is and how to obtain it is challenging. It is a key issue and we are engaging with the sector on it at the moment.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Okay. Does Deputy Clarke have any other questions?

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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No.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I did not think the meeting would be over so quickly. The local and European elections have a lot to answer for. I thank the officials for coming today and briefing the committee. It has been very beneficial. The meetings we had last week and this week were very good. The select committee, for TDs only, will meet on Wednesday, 19 June 2024 to consider supports for survivors of residential institutional abuse in 2024 with the Minister for Education.