Dr. Alison Harnett:

It has been set out by Mr. Meany and Ms Mallon alluded to it earlier also. The recruitment and retention challenges that are in disability services are there for section 38 and section 39 organisations. The section 39 organisations, to answer Deputy Canney's question, have the same challenges in terms of profiling, changing need, changing demographics and the need to deliver a highly personalised approach. Those challenges are shared whether organisations are under section 38 or section 39, and section 39 organisations are doing it with their hands tied behind their back in terms of that 10.5% gap that is newly emerged with HSE and section 38 pay. Fixing only that, however, will not fix everything else.

Equally, I represent section 38 member organisations and currently there is a recruitment pause in the HSE. We were delighted that there was a derogation provided for front-line posts for section 38 disability services. The derogation does not, however, extend to administrative and managerial posts and that can have a very strong affect. When we talk about managerial posts, that might be a person in charge, PIC, in terms of the HIQA related services, it might a director of operations or someone in HR. When those people are gone, it is not merely a matter of administration. It has an impact on the front line. Disability services have a range of stability and sustainability challenges that are quite serious and comprehensive.

Section 39 pay simply cannot continue and it is one of the most fundamental questions. It would only bring section 39 members back to the same level to face the same challenges that section 38 member organisations are facing. It would not be fair to suggest that fixing section 39 pay would fix all of the other issues. There is a range of sustainability challenges that we need to be honest about.